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| annegentle | almost time for Doc team meeting | 12:57 |
|---|---|---|
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| fifieldt | yay! | 12:58 |
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| [1]NickChase | Good morning, all. | 13:00 |
| writerDiane_ | Hello! | 13:00 |
| fifieldt_ | Good morning [1]NickChase | 13:00 |
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| NickChase | Not sure what THAT was about. :) | 13:00 |
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| annegentle | morning! | 13:01 |
| annegentle | all set? | 13:01 |
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| annegentle | #startmeeting Doc/Web team | 13:01 |
| ladquin | good morning / evening / afternoon, folks | 13:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 11 13:01:37 2013 UTC. The chair is annegentle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Doc/Web team)" | 13:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'doc_web_team' | 13:01 |
| annegentle | Agenda can be found at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/DocTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 13:02 |
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| annegentle | #topic Action items from the last meeting | 13:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Action items from the last meeting (Meeting topic: Doc/Web team)" | 13:02 | |
| annegentle | er maybe I should ask who all is here? | 13:02 |
| annegentle | then again maybe I see all I need to :) | 13:02 |
| sgordon | >.> | 13:02 |
| annegentle | :) | 13:02 |
| t4nk778 | :> | 13:02 |
| annegentle | 1. annegentle ask about DocImpact automation. Done, sld started a patch to automate | 13:03 |
| annegentle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/30718/ original patch | 13:03 |
| fifieldt_ | NickChase, writerDiane_, annegentle, koolhead17, sld, EmilienM (no lorinh or razique) | 13:03 |
| annegentle | also fifieldt_ picked up the work while sld was on vaction | 13:03 |
| koolhead17 | hi all | 13:03 |
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| annegentle | at least that's what I got from reading through the links | 13:03 |
| annegentle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/32348/ new patch while sld went on vacay | 13:03 |
| t4nk778 | can someone help me with the nova live migration feature ? | 13:04 |
| annegentle | looks like there are more TODOs to try to make it expandable for other impact flags, but we need to stop drowning in DocImpact emails. | 13:04 |
| * ladquin here | 13:04 | |
| fifieldt_ | not in this channel t4nk778, we're having a meeting :) try #openstack | 13:04 |
| t4nk778 | ah ok ^^ | 13:04 |
| annegentle | fifieldt_: do you have any more details about DocImpact automation? | 13:04 |
| annegentle | t4nk778: yeah we can try to help elsewhere though! | 13:04 |
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| fifieldt_ | well, Steven did all the hard work | 13:05 |
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| fifieldt_ | effectively making code that creates bugs in launchpad similar to what I'm doing now | 13:05 |
| annegentle | fifieldt_: sweet | 13:05 |
| sld | I do, sortof... by 'borrowing' some other code and then changing that, and generalizing it... ;) | 13:05 |
| fifieldt_ | then extended that so that it only makes one bug per DocImpact | 13:05 |
| annegentle | sld: hehe isn't that the way it goes | 13:05 |
| fifieldt_ | the bugs will still need some triaging after being created | 13:05 |
| fifieldt_ | but it removes a silly manual process | 13:05 |
| annegentle | fifieldt_: that sounds really more reasonable though | 13:06 |
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| fifieldt_ | then there are extensions we can add | 13:06 |
| fifieldt_ | eg | 13:06 |
| fifieldt_ | 1) alter the text on bug update | 13:06 |
| fifieldt_ | 2) close bugs associated with abandoned patch sets | 13:06 |
| fifieldt_ | 3) mark patch-merged bugs as 'confirmed' | 13:06 |
| fifieldt_ | in the future | 13:06 |
| annegentle | Freakin' nifty | 13:06 |
| annegentle | esp. the close doc bugs when a patch gets abandoned | 13:06 |
| annegentle | ok there was one more action item | 13:06 |
| annegentle | 2. annegentle and sld meet to talk about install docs | 13:07 |
| annegentle | Met, talked about install docs, docimpact, config automation. Probably about rain too since we are in Texas. :) | 13:07 |
| annegentle | That was sld's action item too. Done and done. | 13:07 |
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| annegentle | Oh and I forgot to mention, fifieldt_ is going to take over the meeting later when I have to leave early... we sorted the agenda | 13:08 |
| annegentle | ok next topic | 13:08 |
| annegentle | #topic Shaun McCance starting June 20, contractor for Cisco | 13:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Shaun McCance starting June 20, contractor for Cisco (Meeting topic: Doc/Web team)" | 13:08 | |
| annegentle | It took a pile of paperwork but Shaun's hired. Woo. | 13:08 |
| fifieldt_ | congratulations | 13:08 |
| NickChase | Congrats | 13:08 |
| annegentle | He's running the Open Help Conference June 15-19. | 13:08 |
| annegentle | #link http://openhelpconference.com/ | 13:08 |
| annegentle | He'll be working on sorting through install guides to create explanatins for multiple architectures. | 13:09 |
| * annegentle can't spell | 13:09 | |
| sld | isn't that a requirement for someone working with docs? :) | 13:09 |
| annegentle | The contract is 3 months if I recall correctly. | 13:09 |
| annegentle | sld: pretty much! | 13:09 |
| annegentle | I think we can all help Shaun get onboard | 13:10 |
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| fifieldt_ | indeed | 13:10 |
| fifieldt_ | have to make the most of the time | 13:10 |
| NickChase | Definitely | 13:10 |
| annegentle | Oh and I made a blueprint for that install sorting. | 13:10 |
| annegentle | #topic Install guides blueprint - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Install-with-multiple-architectures | 13:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Install guides blueprint - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Install-with-multiple-architectures (Meeting topic: Doc/Web team)" | 13:10 | |
| annegentle | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Install-with-multiple-architectures | 13:10 |
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| annegentle | Hoenstly part of the work is to figure out if that's the right approach (example architecture) but that sounded like what we decided at the Summit. Any discussion, questions? | 13:11 |
| writerDiane_ | I still think we could consolidate into one install guide | 13:11 |
| annegentle | My only hesitation for a single install guide is that "everyone" wants a "simple test" one. | 13:11 |
| sgordon | yeah | 13:12 |
| annegentle | oh and my other hesitation is, the distros that have their own install guides, how do we differentiate ours as the "official" one? | 13:12 |
| sgordon | problem is they also want expandable :) | 13:12 |
| annegentle | sgordon: yeah | 13:12 |
| writerDiane_ | okay - that sounds reasonable - but they could share some common files and be made more consistent | 13:12 |
| annegentle | So some of Shaun's work will be that analysis. | 13:12 |
| writerDiane_ | in organization and style | 13:12 |
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| annegentle | writerDiane_: for sure | 13:12 |
| fifieldt_ | cool | 13:12 |
| NickChase | As the "official" one we're talking about the bare bones, no external tools version. | 13:13 |
| annegentle | writerDiane_: that would greatly improve the install experience from docs.o.o | 13:13 |
| writerDiane_ | okay! | 13:13 |
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| annegentle | NickChase: right, can be core and integrated, but no more | 13:13 |
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| annegentle | NickChase: or we decide core only to lessen scope | 13:13 |
| sgordon | i would +1 core only | 13:13 |
| annegentle | sgordon: yeah might be the best to stick to core only, good input | 13:14 |
| sgordon | from my pov as an employee of a vendor we are happy to maintain a doc for our specific deployment method | 13:14 |
| annegentle | then we just coach the integrated on how to document their install processes | 13:14 |
| fifieldt_ | I would instead go "best practice"/"usual practice" :) | 13:14 |
| sgordon | but would like to collaborate on 'manual' deployment | 13:14 |
| sgordon | of the core | 13:14 |
| annegentle | install/config | 13:14 |
| writerDiane_ | i think the horizon info can definitely move into the new user guide | 13:14 |
| writerDiane_ | or at least be shared | 13:15 |
| NickChase | I think it'd be good to start with core only, but ultimately there should be "official" doc on how to install all "official" software. | 13:15 |
| annegentle | sgordon: cool, Shaun is used to working in open source collaborations so I think he'll be very open to help | 13:15 |
| NickChase | Diane: I agree. | 13:15 |
| sgordon | yes, will be meeting him for the first time on the weekend :) | 13:15 |
| annegentle | writerDiane_: Horizon install/conig? | 13:15 |
| annegentle | config | 13:15 |
| annegentle | sgordon: aw cool! I so wish I could go but my son's camp dates prevented it... | 13:15 |
| annegentle | I nearly bought a ticket last week in fact :) | 13:15 |
| annegentle | fifieldt_: do you think we'll have some data for "usual" in the next few weeks from the user committee? | 13:16 |
| annegentle | fifieldt_: it would be great to apply some of that knowledge (what lots of deployers are doing) | 13:16 |
| annegentle | fifieldt_: or, are you familiar enough to tell Shaun what's best practice/usual? | 13:17 |
| fifieldt_ | that data will be months, rather than weeks | 13:17 |
| annegentle | fifieldt_: ah ok | 13:17 |
| annegentle | ok any more on install guide? | 13:17 |
| fifieldt_ | I'm just thinking of the approach from the ops guide | 13:17 |
| annegentle | fifieldt_: yeah good one | 13:17 |
| fifieldt_ | which was opinionated | 13:17 |
| annegentle | aren't they all :) | 13:17 |
| annegentle | #topic User Guide - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Blueprint-os-user-docs | 13:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "User Guide - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Blueprint-os-user-docs (Meeting topic: Doc/Web team)" | 13:17 | |
| fifieldt_ | mm. | 13:18 |
| annegentle | writerDiane_ has been going great gangbusters on the user guide | 13:18 |
| annegentle | writerDiane_: you want to talk about it? your findings re: sharing and user v admin user? | 13:18 |
| writerDiane_ | yes | 13:18 |
| writerDiane_ | i think it's possible to share, but the user guide I'm creating is going to be larger than the SUSE one - but I think that parts of it can use conditional tags | 13:19 |
| writerDiane_ | and be shared | 13:19 |
| writerDiane_ | but we can figure that out later - | 13:19 |
| annegentle | Oy! And I have to go now, fifieldt_ you have the ocn. | 13:19 |
| annegentle | er, con | 13:19 |
| fifieldt_ | ok | 13:19 |
| fifieldt_ | ta | 13:19 |
| NickChase | Bye, Anne | 13:19 |
| writerDiane_ | bye anne | 13:19 |
| annegentle | bye, thanks writerDiane_! | 13:19 |
| fifieldt_ | sounds impressive writerDiane_ | 13:19 |
| writerDiane_ | tom, i also think we'll need an admin users guide | 13:20 |
| fifieldt_ | ok, two separate guides? cool | 13:20 |
| NickChase | I was about to say that I was looking into splitting them out | 13:20 |
| writerDiane_ | that's what I'm thinking | 13:20 |
| fifieldt_ | cool, nice | 13:20 |
| writerDiane_ | both would have same format, but the admin guide would focus on admin-only tasks | 13:20 |
| NickChase | and I am thinking that maybe you and I can get together to make sure nothing slips through the cracks? | 13:20 |
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| writerDiane_ | sure nick | 13:21 |
| NickChase | great, we'll schedule offline? | 13:21 |
| writerDiane_ | yes - i've written a similar guide for cloud servers at rackspace - | 13:21 |
| writerDiane_ | yes, schedule offline | 13:21 |
| fifieldt_ | brilliant work guys | 13:21 |
| fifieldt_ | shall we move on then? or is anything else bothering you about the user guide? | 13:21 |
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| writerDiane_ | move on | 13:22 |
| fifieldt_ | ok! | 13:22 |
| fifieldt_ | #topic Auto-generated configuration reference tables for milestone | 13:22 |
| fifieldt_ | so, you've probably seen the patches floating about | 13:22 |
| fifieldt_ | generated by Steven & I's code | 13:22 |
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| sld | ...not sure when we'll have that done, but you know the progress. :) | 13:22 |
| fifieldt_ | that runs through every python file in an openstack product and extracts options and their help text | 13:22 |
| fifieldt_ | recent patches to go in include | 13:22 |
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| fifieldt_ | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/28904/ | 13:23 |
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| fifieldt_ | which went through and added config reference tables in the compute admin guide | 13:23 |
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| fifieldt_ | if you're looking for something that might be an example of this fabled 'config reference' | 13:23 |
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| fifieldt_ | check out the RPC section in that | 13:23 |
| fifieldt_ | and how it includes rabbit, qpid etc | 13:23 |
| fifieldt_ | we also have quantum (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/28905/) and glance(https://review.openstack.org/#/c/28903/) | 13:23 |
| fifieldt_ | the key problem right now | 13:24 |
| fifieldt_ | is that the config tables don't track which file to configure the options in | 13:24 |
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| fifieldt_ | as raised in the quantum review and glancve | 13:24 |
| fifieldt_ | so that'll be the next step, capturing that | 13:24 |
| fifieldt_ | Steven was also working on some code today which might be more robust than what we're currently doing | 13:24 |
| fifieldt_ | ok, end of rant | 13:24 |
| fifieldt_ | any queries? | 13:24 |
| sld | nope. :) | 13:25 |
| fifieldt_ | writerDiane_, NickChase is this whole automated config table thing making sense? | 13:25 |
| writerDiane_ | yes! | 13:25 |
| NickChase | Yes. I'm thinking... | 13:25 |
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| fifieldt_ | a dangerous activity | 13:25 |
| NickChase | :) | 13:25 |
| NickChase | ... that it shouldn't be too much to include an ID in the docs and the code to match them up | 13:26 |
| fifieldt_ | perhaps we should discuss offline - thought through many things on making this work :) | 13:26 |
| NickChase | sounds good | 13:26 |
| fifieldt_ | cool, I'll hit you on skype | 13:26 |
| NickChase | great | 13:26 |
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| fifieldt_ | ok, if there's nothing else .... ? | 13:27 |
| NickChase | not on this | 13:27 |
| fifieldt_ | #topic Bug report, DocImpact state | 13:27 |
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| fifieldt_ | so, I think we covered this just before in the action items | 13:27 |
| fifieldt_ | sld, any comments? | 13:27 |
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| sld | nope | 13:28 |
| sld | i think? | 13:28 |
| sld | you know all i know. heh.. | 13:28 |
| fifieldt_ | cool, is everyone else comfortable with what's going on with the DocImpact-becomes-bug process>? | 13:28 |
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| NickChase | I am | 13:29 |
| writerDiane_ | yes | 13:29 |
| fifieldt_ | brilliant, ta | 13:29 |
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| fifieldt_ | in that case, we're on to ... | 13:29 |
| fifieldt_ | #topic Open discussion | 13:29 |
| fifieldt_ | anything you want to talk about? | 13:29 |
| NickChase | OK, well, briefly, I got with Emilien and we're going to expand the HA guide. | 13:30 |
| fifieldt_ | oh, great! | 13:30 |
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| NickChase | we decided to keep what is there and add the new content to it | 13:30 |
| fifieldt_ | did you sort out the active-active vs active-passtive thing? | 13:30 |
| EmilienM | o/ | 13:30 |
| fifieldt_ | it's alive | 13:30 |
| NickChase | yes, we're going to do an intro that starts with the general concepts | 13:30 |
| NickChase | Hey there. :) | 13:30 |
| EmilienM | https://etherpad.openstack.org/HA-Active-Active | 13:30 |
| fifieldt_ | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/HA-Active-Active | 13:31 |
| fifieldt_ | #info https://etherpad.openstack.org/HA-Active-Active | 13:31 |
| fifieldt_ | hmm, I was sure one of those fed the meet bot :) | 13:31 |
| NickChase | And we have an Etherpad. :) | 13:31 |
| fifieldt_ | looks good | 13:31 |
| NickChase | Anyway, the idea (as I understood it) was to start with concepts, then discuss them as potential ways to do it. | 13:32 |
| fifieldt_ | a sound plan | 13:32 |
| EmilienM | and share use cases | 13:32 |
| NickChase | What we want is to provide a way to do it "out of the box" without stifling innovation on the topic. | 13:32 |
| NickChase | right | 13:32 |
| fifieldt_ | (minor administrative note: do you want to create a blueprint on launchpad as well - it can link to the etherpad - just to give others visibility on the work that's going on?) | 13:32 |
| EmilienM | it seems Mirantis & eNovance are doing HA on the same way for almost all OpenStack components | 13:33 |
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| fifieldt_ | how convenient :) | 13:33 |
| EmilienM | fifieldt: sounds good ! let's for a blueprint | 13:33 |
| EmilienM | let's go* | 13:33 |
| NickChase | Yes, good idea. Emilien, you or me? | 13:33 |
| EmilienM | I can write it | 13:33 |
| fifieldt_ | #action EmilienM create a blueprint on openstack-manuals to link to https://etherpad.openstack.org/HA-Active-Active | 13:33 |
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| NickChase | great, thanks | 13:34 |
| fifieldt_ | cool | 13:34 |
| fifieldt_ | on random thing I should note is - has everyone seen the bootcamp the infrastructure team is having? | 13:34 |
| NickChase | no | 13:34 |
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| writerDiane_ | i heard about it | 13:35 |
| fifieldt_ | there's some posts on the openstack-infra mailing list explaining it recently | 13:35 |
| fifieldt_ | essentially they are looking for long term sustained contributors (please don't abandon us for infra :D) | 13:35 |
| fifieldt_ | and having a meeting to bring people up to speed to be useful in this way | 13:35 |
| fifieldt_ | I think sld was considering joining | 13:35 |
| fifieldt_ | after his recent work into that side of things | 13:35 |
| fifieldt_ | but anyway, check out the infra mailing list archives if it interests you | 13:36 |
| fifieldt_ | we could also consider doing such a boot camp for docs | 13:36 |
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| sld | hehe | 13:36 |
| fifieldt_ | thoughts on that? | 13:36 |
| NickChase | I'd be all for a docs boot camp | 13:36 |
| writerDiane_ | yes, a boot camp for docs would be good | 13:36 |
| fifieldt_ | what would the scope be? | 13:36 |
| fifieldt_ | & purpose | 13:36 |
| writerDiane_ | doc tools, common practices for contributing | 13:37 |
| NickChase | the actual process of contributing is a bit confusing | 13:37 |
| writerDiane_ | best practices - writing style, spellcheck, | 13:37 |
| writerDiane_ | i agree - | 13:37 |
| writerDiane_ | people are intimidated | 13:37 |
| NickChase | actually | 13:37 |
| NickChase | unofficially, we are in the process of writing up a document on it | 13:37 |
| writerDiane_ | we? | 13:37 |
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| NickChase | I've got a guy here, Tyler. | 13:38 |
| NickChase | I put him on it. | 13:38 |
| NickChase | The doc he produced isn't ready for prime time yet | 13:38 |
| fifieldt_ | on contributing, that is? | 13:38 |
| NickChase | but ultimately it could serve as a good foundation for a boot camp | 13:38 |
| NickChase | yes | 13:38 |
| fifieldt_ | sounds cool | 13:38 |
| NickChase | but it does need work | 13:38 |
| fifieldt_ | no dramas | 13:39 |
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| fifieldt_ | my feeling is that we need to "get our house in order" before we can ramp up contributors in a big way | 13:39 |
| NickChase | thank you. | 13:39 |
| fifieldt_ | and by that I mean the restructure | 13:39 |
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| writerDiane_ | rackspace recently created a course for docbook - we could borrow from that | 13:39 |
| NickChase | nice | 13:39 |
| fifieldt_ | ok, everyone has awesome ideas | 13:39 |
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| fifieldt_ | let's start an etherpad on planning this | 13:39 |
| fifieldt_ | and eventually turn it into a proposal | 13:40 |
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| fifieldt_ | we might be able to get fundingz | 13:40 |
| EmilienM | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+spec/improve-high-availability-support | 13:40 |
| fifieldt_ | love your work EmilienM | 13:40 |
| EmilienM | ;) | 13:40 |
| NickChase | thanks, Emilien :) | 13:40 |
| fifieldt_ | #link fifieldt to create an etherpad for potential doc boot camp and communicate link | 13:40 |
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| fifieldt_ | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/DocsBootCamp2013 | 13:41 |
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| fifieldt_ | ok - any other general doc discussion? | 13:41 |
| fifieldt_ | we have 19 minutes of meeting time left that we could give back to our lives :) | 13:41 |
| NickChase | +1 on that. :) | 13:42 |
| writerDiane_ | +1 | 13:42 |
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| fifieldt_ | oh damn, why didn't you use +2 s :) | 13:42 |
| EmilienM | I have one question | 13:42 |
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| fifieldt_ | yes EmilienM | 13:42 |
| EmilienM | for the HA doc, is it a good idea to work with Google Doc first, to collaborate with the community ? | 13:43 |
| EmilienM | first with NickChase | 13:43 |
| EmilienM | but maybe other people would like to see our work | 13:43 |
| EmilienM | before patching the doc | 13:43 |
| NickChase | I'm for that. | 13:43 |
| sgordon | that would be great in my opinion | 13:43 |
| fifieldt_ | for the rapid development stage, whatever works | 13:43 |
| * sgordon is having a lot of difficulty working out where to fit in with a lot of things happening offline | 13:44 | |
| fifieldt_ | oh, how can we fix that sgordon | 13:44 |
| EmilienM | ok, NickChase : I start a google doc | 13:44 |
| sgordon | fifieldt, EmilenM's suggestion seems reasonable | 13:44 |
| sgordon | still have rapid development just have it in the open | 13:44 |
| fifieldt_ | ya | 13:44 |
| fifieldt_ | 'course | 13:45 |
| NickChase | Emilien: thx | 13:45 |
| sgordon | tooling doesnt really phase me | 13:45 |
| sgordon | google docs seems fine :) | 13:45 |
| fifieldt_ | some would argue that vehemently :) | 13:45 |
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| fifieldt_ | tehehe | 13:45 |
| sgordon | hey if the NSA want to contribute... | 13:45 |
| sgordon | ;p | 13:45 |
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| fifieldt_ | :D | 13:45 |
| fifieldt_ | but yeah, all of the other work like the new docs is already in the gerrit system | 13:45 |
| writerDiane_ | I have no problem with google-docs, but then there is the conversion from the google-docs to docbook, which I've done for quantum and it's a pain in the neck | 13:46 |
| writerDiane_ | not easy | 13:46 |
| NickChase | Well, it will be when it's ready for review | 13:46 |
| writerDiane_ | especially with tables | 13:46 |
| NickChase | It is a pain, true | 13:46 |
| fifieldt_ | indeed | 13:46 |
| NickChase | but I volunteer | 13:46 |
| fifieldt_ | yay! | 13:46 |
| NickChase | done it before, I can do it again. :) | 13:46 |
| writerDiane_ | alternatively, you can generate PDF for a doc patch and have people review that | 13:46 |
| fifieldt_ | #action NickChase to convert google docs to docbook, when the time comes | 13:46 |
| writerDiane_ | wow, glutton for punishment? :) | 13:46 |
| EmilienM | \o/ | 13:46 |
| fifieldt_ | cool, so it seems that is progressing | 13:47 |
| fifieldt_ | perhaps you can update your etherpad with the new gdoc link EmilienM :) | 13:47 |
| fifieldt_ | so, we have 13 minutes of meeting time left | 13:47 |
| fifieldt_ | life or docs? :) | 13:47 |
| NickChase | writerDiane: I'm here, aren't I? | 13:47 |
| NickChase | :) | 13:47 |
| ekarlso- | ello folks | 13:47 |
| fifieldt_ | hi ekarlso- | 13:47 |
| fifieldt_ | we're just in open discussion on docs now | 13:48 |
| writerDiane_ | yes!!!! ha ha ha | 13:48 |
| fifieldt_ | any thoughts? | 13:48 |
| EmilienM | fifieldt: of course I can | 13:48 |
| fifieldt_ | cheers EmilienM | 13:48 |
| fifieldt_ | ok, unless ekarlso- has comments in the next half minute, I'm tempted to call the meeting to a close :) | 13:49 |
| sld | lol | 13:49 |
| sld | i had an addendum. | 13:49 |
| fifieldt_ | yes? | 13:49 |
| sld | i was thinking of emaililng the guy that did the config-option-grabbing stuff for nova/c...was it cinder or ceilometer i don't remember.. to see if had anything more genericised. (sp?). | 13:50 |
| sld | ...since apparenlty that stuff is from last year - if not older. | 13:50 |
| fifieldt_ | yes, sounds good | 13:50 |
| fifieldt_ | #action sld get in touch with conf file code people to collaborate | 13:51 |
| fifieldt_ | anyone else? | 13:51 |
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| fifieldt_ | I have to run to another meeting now myself | 13:51 |
| writerDiane_ | bye | 13:51 |
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| fifieldt_ | thanks all! | 13:51 |
| NickChase | thanks fifieldt_ | 13:51 |
| fifieldt_ | #endmeeting | 13:51 |
| fifieldt_ | have fun! | 13:51 |
| NickChase | bye! | 13:51 |
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| EmilienM | o/ | 13:55 |
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| annegentle | #endmeeting | 14:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "R/O volumes (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 14:13 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 11 14:13:58 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:14 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/doc_web_team/2013/doc_web_team.2013-06-11-13.01.html | 14:14 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/doc_web_team/2013/doc_web_team.2013-06-11-13.01.txt | 14:14 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/doc_web_team/2013/doc_web_team.2013-06-11-13.01.log.html | 14:14 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting scheduler | 14:59 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 11 14:59:45 2013 UTC. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:59 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 14:59 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'scheduler' | 14:59 |
| n0ano | show of hands, anyone here for the scheduler meeting? | 15:00 |
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| senhuang | hi guys | 15:01 |
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| n0ano | hmm, slow start today, I'm getting a lack of enthusiasm from the crowd :-) | 15:02 |
| PhilDay | I'm here - what do you want to talk aboui ? | 15:03 |
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| n0ano | I was hoping to talk about the scaling issues that jog0 brought up last week. | 15:03 |
| pmurray | Hi I'm new to this group but I'll be joining in | 15:04 |
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| n0ano | pmurray, NP welcome | 15:04 |
| PhilDay | Did jog0 have specific issues that he'd seen - or was it a general question ? | 15:04 |
| n0ano | #topic scheduler scaling | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "scheduler scaling (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:04 | |
| n0ano | unfortunately, he brought it up in the last 5 min. so we don't have a lot of detail... | 15:05 |
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| PhilDay | Are you here jog0 ? | 15:05 |
| n0ano | the basic issues was BlueHost created a 16K node cluster, discovered the scheduler was not working and removed it in favor of a totally random scheduler | 15:05 |
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| PhilDay | Bluehost have a very specific use case though - they are in effect a trad. hosting company, and so they can in effect hand place thier VMs | 15:06 |
| n0ano | I don't believe they did a thorough analysis of what was wrong but the guess would be the scheduler dealing with all the compute node updates. | 15:06 |
| senhuang | this is interesting. it will be great if we can get more details on the bottleneck | 15:06 |
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| n0ano | senhuang, that was my thought, I'd like to know what is wrong to see if there's an implementation issue or something needs to be re-archtected | 15:07 |
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| PhilDay | So they didn't need a rich scheduler. I didn't get the imporession that they spent long tying to work out the issues | 15:07 |
| senhuang | n0nao: yes. agreed | 15:07 |
| PhilDay | Most of thier effort went into DB access | 15:08 |
| n0ano | PhilDay, I'm not that concerned with BH's specific use case, if there is a scaling issue I'd like to analyze it and see what can be done. | 15:08 |
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| PhilDay | So I think it would be wrong to conclude from Bluesacle that there is a specific scale issue | 15:08 |
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| n0ano | PhilDay, possibly, but it is a data point, do we know of any more traditional cloud use cases that have scaled beyond what the scheduler can handle? | 15:09 |
| senhuang | PhilDay: what is special about a trad. hosting company in terms of scheduling? | 15:09 |
| PhilDay | I did find one issue this week that I'm working on a fix for - which is that some filters really don't need to run for each instance in request - e.g. no need to evaluate the AZ filter 100 times for 100 instances - esp as it currently makes a db query for each host | 15:10 |
| PhilDay | So I'm looking at making filters able to declare if they need to be run for each instance or just once | 15:10 |
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| PhilDay | compute_filter is another that it doesn't make sense to run multiple times | 15:11 |
| n0ano | PhilDay, good idea but I'd be more concerned about compute node updates, seems like that would be an on-going overhead that could cause scaling issues. | 15:11 |
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| n0ano | also, I thought there was an effort to create a DB free compute node, is that still a goal or have we dropped that idea? | 15:12 |
| PhilDay | As I understand it there are two update paths (not sure why). The hosts send updates on capabitlies via mesages to the scheduler, but the resource counts are still updated via the DB. | 15:12 |
| n0ano | we should really consolidate one or the other, two paths seem silly | 15:13 |
| PhilDay | Not clear to me that there is value in the capability update messages as they stand, as they are pretty much fixed data. You can filter the rate at which they send the updates. | 15:13 |
| garyk | hi, sorry for joing late | 15:13 |
| n0ano | also, not sure why capabilities are periodically sent since they are static | 15:13 |
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| senhuang | PhiDay: maybe the update is another way of heartbeat? | 15:13 |
| PhilDay | Its two different sets of data; capabilites and capacity | 15:13 |
| n0ano | I'd prefer to remove the DB update and put everything in the message to the scheduler | 15:14 |
| PhilDay | Maybe, but its not used as such as far as I can see | 15:14 |
| senhuang | agreed. basically qualitative and quantitative capabilities | 15:14 |
| PhilDay | If you do it all in messages then you need some way for a scheduler to know at start up when it has all of the data | 15:15 |
| n0ano | but it does create an obvious scale issue, have all compute nodes send a message with static data to the scheduler seems a little silly | 15:15 |
| n0ano | PhilDay, how would that be different from getting the same data (possibly incomplete) from the DB | 15:16 |
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| PhilDay | I could be wrong - but that was my reading of the code. For sure the host manager view of capacity is read from the DB at the start of each request | 15:16 |
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| n0ano | wouldn't be that hard to have the scheduler ignore nodes that haven't reported capacity yet | 15:17 |
| PhilDay | But when your trying to stack to teh most loaded host you coudl get soem very wrong results durign that start up stage | 15:17 |
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| PhilDay | At least with teh DB you get the full scope of hosts, even if the data is stale. And stale data is handled by the retry | 15:18 |
| n0ano | PhilDay, but is a non-optimal scheduling decision, only during startup, that big a problem. | 15:18 |
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| PhilDay | Depends on your use case I guess ;-) I'm sure there wil be someone its a problem for | 15:19 |
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| PhilDay | I think we have to be wary of trying to design out scale issues that we don't know for sure exist | 15:19 |
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| n0ano | I don't know, stale (e.g. incorrect data) in some sense is even worse to me than no data at all. | 15:20 |
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| n0ano | bottom line, 2 mechanisms (message & DB) seem wrong, we should pick one and use that | 15:21 |
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| PhilDay | Probably need to start with a post in openstack.dev to see if someone can explain why capabilities are sent by messages | 15:22 |
| n0ano | PhilDay, good idea | 15:23 |
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| n0ano | #action n0ano to start thread on openstack-dev about messages to scheduler | 15:23 |
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| PhilDay | Perhaps the generic host state BP is the right place to mop up any changes around this ? | 15:24 |
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| n0ano | potentially, I'm interested in the area so I can look at that BP and see what's appropriate, do you have a specific link to it? | 15:25 |
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| PhilDay | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/generic-host-state-for-scheduler | 15:25 |
| n0ano | tnx, I'll check it out | 15:25 |
| n0ano | we've talked about compute node capacity updates, are there any other obvious scaling issues in the scheduler we can think of? | 15:26 |
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| n0ano | then, without any empirical data (like what BH was seeing), we'll have to accept what the scheduler is doing so far. | 15:28 |
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| n0ano | #topic DB free compute node | 15:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "DB free compute node (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:29 | |
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| * n0ano this is fun, being the chair means I can set the topics :-) | 15:29 | |
| n0ano | I thought there was a goal for this at one point in time, is that still true? | 15:29 |
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| n0ano | hmm, hearing silence, I guess I'll have to bring this up on the mailing list | 15:31 |
| n0ano | #topic opens | 15:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "opens (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:31 | |
| n0ano | Anyone have anything new they want to bring up today? | 15:32 |
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| haomaiwang | join #openstack-cinder | 15:32 |
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| n0ano | haomaiwang, forgot the `/' on that join :-) | 15:32 |
| garyk | n0ano: the instance groups is coming along nicely and would be nice if we can get some help with the reviews | 15:32 |
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| n0ano | garyk, sure, you got a pointer I can add to ping people | 15:33 |
| garyk | n0ano: that would be great - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack/?searchtext=instance-group-api-extension . hopefully by the end of the week we'll have the cli support too | 15:33 |
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| n0ano | all - if you got the time, try and give a review on this | 15:34 |
| garyk | n0ano: thanks | 15:34 |
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| n0ano | I'm hearing silence so I think we'll close a little early this week (more time for reviews :-) | 15:36 |
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| garyk | i need to run to swap the babysitter. sorry | 15:36 |
| n0ano | OK, tnx everyone and we'll type at each other next week | 15:37 |
| n0ano | #endmeeting | 15:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "R/O volumes (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 15:37 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 11 15:37:12 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:37 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-06-11-14.59.html | 15:37 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-06-11-14.59.txt | 15:37 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-06-11-14.59.log.html | 15:37 |
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| primeministerp | #startmeeting hyper-v | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 11 16:00:15 2013 UTC. The chair is primeministerp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: hyper-v)" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'hyper_v' | 16:00 |
| primeministerp | hi everyone | 16:00 |
| schwicht | hi ... | 16:00 |
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| ociuhandu | hi everyone | 16:00 |
| primeministerp | hi tavi | 16:00 |
| primeministerp | pnavarro: hi pedro | 16:00 |
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| primeministerp | hmm was hoping lluis would show up | 16:01 |
| primeministerp | let's wait a couple minutes before we get started | 16:01 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: i'm waiting a couple in hopes that lluis will join | 16:02 |
| alexpilotti | morning! | 16:02 |
| primeministerp | hehe | 16:02 |
| primeministerp | morning! | 16:02 |
| pnavarro | hello ! | 16:03 |
| alexpilotti | pnavarro: hola! | 16:03 |
| primeministerp | pedro! | 16:03 |
| primeministerp | ok | 16:03 |
| primeministerp | that was a couple | 16:03 |
| primeministerp | #topic status update wmiv2 | 16:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "status update wmiv2 (Meeting topic: hyper-v)" | 16:03 | |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: how is the wmiv2 code migration progressing | 16:04 |
| alexpilotti | we are almost done | 16:04 |
| alexpilotti | the idea is simple: | 16:04 |
| alexpilotti | V2 utils classes inherit from V1 | 16:04 |
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| alexpilotti | provide the new namespace and different implementations whenever needed | 16:04 |
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| alexpilotti | a fatory method (like the one we have for volume utils) takes care of instantiating the right one based on the OS | 16:05 |
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| alexpilotti | *factory | 16:05 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: so this will allow the backward compatitbility for 2008r2 to remain intact | 16:05 |
| alexpilotti | yes | 16:05 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: perfect | 16:05 |
| alexpilotti | everythinhg that used to work on 2008 R2 will still work | 16:05 |
| alexpilotti | only new features will be applied to V2 only | 16:06 |
| schwicht | nice | 16:06 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: although obviously this there for "legacy" purposes" | 16:06 |
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| primeministerp | only | 16:06 |
| alexpilotti | yeah, the idea is to eventually remove the V1 classes | 16:06 |
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| alexpilotti | in a few years, which are geological ages in this domain :-) | 16:07 |
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| primeministerp | our goal to reiterate is to use 2012 and on as the default platform for development | 16:07 |
| primeministerp | ok | 16:07 |
| alexpilotti | most meaningful features, including OpenVSwitch and Ceph | 16:08 |
| alexpilotti | will be on 2012+ | 16:08 |
| primeministerp | when will the bits be ready for testing | 16:08 |
| primeministerp | re: wmiv2 | 16:08 |
| alexpilotti | maybe we'll manage to have them up for review this week already | 16:08 |
| primeministerp | great | 16:08 |
| alexpilotti | Claudiu, one of our guys is working on it | 16:09 |
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| primeministerp | oki shall we move on then | 16:09 |
| alexpilotti | sure | 16:09 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: shared mem? | 16:09 |
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| alexpilotti | oki | 16:10 |
| primeministerp | #topic hyper-v shared memory support | 16:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "hyper-v shared memory support (Meeting topic: hyper-v)" | 16:10 | |
| alexpilotti | shared mamory is a fairly easy thing | 16:10 |
| alexpilotti | but we'll need 2 options | 16:10 |
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| alexpilotti | actually it's "dynamic memory" | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | sorry | 16:11 |
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| alexpilotti | np, I was also going on with it :-) | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | balooning | 16:11 |
| alexpilotti | yep | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | re ballooning | 16:11 |
| alexpilotti | so we need one optio: "enable_dynamic_memory", defaulting to false | 16:12 |
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| primeministerp | I knew what i was talking about too ;) | 16:12 |
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| schwicht | primeministerp: is that supported with regular LIS or just on windows VMs ? | 16:12 |
| alexpilotti | and "dynamic_memory_initial_perc" | 16:12 |
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| primeministerp | schwicht: yes | 16:12 |
| primeministerp | schwicht: in newer releases i believe | 16:12 |
| alexpilotti | schwicht: yep, including Linux now | 16:12 |
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| schwicht | ok, good .. we had that discussion the other days, and I was not sure about the RHEL 6.4 situation ... | 16:13 |
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| alexpilotti | the latter option is needed to tell Hyper-V how much memory to allocate initially in percentage | 16:13 |
| alexpilotti | let's say that a flavor states 10GB ram, if the above option's value is 60, the initial memory will be 6GB | 16:14 |
| alexpilotti | as easy as that | 16:14 |
| alexpilotti | there's of course the risk of overcommitting and what applies for any balooning consideration applies to openstack as well | 16:15 |
| primeministerp | obviously | 16:15 |
| alexpilotti | in particular the scheduler can get confused by the amount of free memory | 16:15 |
| alexpilotti | considering that the host reports to Nova the current free memory, w/o considering VM requirements | 16:16 |
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| alexpilotti | any comment on this? | 16:16 |
| primeministerp | hmm | 16:16 |
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| primeministerp | i'm thinking | 16:16 |
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| primeministerp | the scheduler issues can be dangerous leading to cascading failure | 16:17 |
| alexpilotti | it's a very useful feature, but misusage can create huge issues | 16:17 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: exactly | 16:17 |
| alexpilotti | that's why I bvote for disabling it by default | 16:17 |
| primeministerp | +1 | 16:17 |
| alexpilotti | > so we need one optio: "enable_dynamic_memory", defaulting to false | 16:17 |
| alexpilotti | pnavarro: ehat's your opinion? | 16:17 |
| alexpilotti | *what | 16:18 |
| pnavarro | in vmare exists the same functionality... I was thinking how they are doing that... | 16:18 |
| * primeministerp pokes pnavarro | 16:18 | |
| pnavarro | in the esxi plugin | 16:18 |
| alexpilotti | pnavarro: VMWare uses shared paging | 16:18 |
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| alexpilotti | pnavarro: the implementation differs from the Hyper-V way | 16:19 |
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| alexpilotti | since we are using SLAT on Hyper-V shared pages make little sense | 16:19 |
| pnavarro | ok, but from an API point of view, you set % and intervals too.. | 16:20 |
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| alexpilotti | pnavarro: sure | 16:20 |
| alexpilotti | pnavarro: I'm not familiar with their settings, let me take a look | 16:20 |
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| pnavarro | about overcommitment there are some flags to make the scheduler aware | 16:21 |
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| primeministerp | pnavarro: could we theoritically reuse those? | 16:22 |
| alexpilotti | pnavarro: I'm looking at the VMWare driver, but I don't see anything | 16:22 |
| alexpilotti | pnavarro: do you have a link to teh code line by any chance? | 16:22 |
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| pnavarro | no, I've used the vmware API in the past, I didn't know how the esxi was using that | 16:23 |
| pnavarro | I was just wondering... | 16:24 |
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| alexpilotti | pnavarro: are you sure is not the scheduler's overcommit? | 16:24 |
| pnavarro | well, I'm not sure... | 16:25 |
| pnavarro | sorry | 16:25 |
| primeministerp | ok | 16:25 |
| primeministerp | no worries | 16:25 |
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| alexpilotti | pnavarro: ram_allocation_ratio | 16:25 |
| alexpilotti | that's the option name | 16:25 |
| alexpilotti | ok, if any additional idea should come up, let's add comments to the BP whiteboard in case, please | 16:26 |
| primeministerp | perfect | 16:27 |
| primeministerp | I was hoping luis would be here | 16:27 |
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| primeministerp | i'll skip the puppet discussion as I need his input | 16:27 |
| alexpilotti | primeministerp: can you please add Ceph to the topics? | 16:27 |
| primeministerp | o | 16:27 |
| primeministerp | yes | 16:27 |
| primeministerp | #topic ceph | 16:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "ceph (Meeting topic: hyper-v)" | 16:27 | |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: you want to begin or do you want me to start? | 16:28 |
| alexpilotti | So, we're prelimiarily discussing the porting of BRD to Hyper-V with Inktank | 16:28 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: RBD | 16:28 |
| alexpilotti | my initial idea was to "simply" port the linux kernel driver to Windows | 16:28 |
| alexpilotti | primeministerp: yep sorry, mixing up acronysm is a passion of mine :-) | 16:29 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: i'm here to keep you honest | 16:29 |
| primeministerp | ;) | 16:29 |
| alexpilotti | lol | 16:29 |
| alexpilotti | back to RBD, | 16:29 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: although that could totally be taken out of context | 16:29 |
| primeministerp | ;) | 16:30 |
| alexpilotti | the problem is that the kernel driver is way behind librbd | 16:30 |
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| alexpilotti | which is the userspace library used by qemu, for example | 16:30 |
| alexpilotti | for example cloning is not implemented in the kernel module, only in the userspace lib | 16:30 |
| alexpilotti | in Hyper-V we have no choice, we need a kernel driver | 16:31 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: meaning that's it consumed more via vms through qemu than by native kernel drivers? | 16:31 |
| alexpilotti | primeministerp: yep, the main business case is KVM | 16:31 |
| alexpilotti | my initial idea is to write a userspace filesystem driver using librbd | 16:32 |
| primeministerp | the kernel drivers were more for the clustered storage replacement | 16:32 |
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| alexpilotti | moving to a full kernel one once Inktank (or the community) will bring the kernel module on parity | 16:32 |
| alexpilotti | advantages of this approach: | 16:32 |
| alexpilotti | security: we are in userspace, no blue screen | 16:33 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: i'm assuming it's quciker development too | 16:33 |
| alexpilotti | fast development: we avoid all the kernel debugging nightmares | 16:33 |
| primeministerp | hehe | 16:33 |
| alexpilotti | yep :) | 16:33 |
| primeministerp | so are we talking h timeframe? | 16:34 |
| alexpilotti | we can use threads, work in C++, no IRQ dispatch issues, etc etc | 16:34 |
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| alexpilotti | disadvantages: | 16:34 |
| alexpilotti | context switches might affect quite a bit the performance side | 16:34 |
| zehicle_at_dell | sorry, I was late | 16:35 |
| zehicle_at_dell | had to prep for HostingCon panel next week | 16:35 |
| primeministerp | zehicle_at_dell: ok | 16:35 |
| primeministerp | zehicle_at_dell: and you are? | 16:35 |
| alexpilotti | although all the traffic will go on TCP/IP | 16:35 |
| primeministerp | zehicle_at_dell: care to introduce yourself? | 16:35 |
| alexpilotti | zehicle_at_dell: nice to see you here :-) | 16:35 |
| primeministerp | haha | 16:36 |
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| primeministerp | rob | 16:36 |
| primeministerp | zehicle_at_dell: hi rob | 16:36 |
| zehicle_at_dell | L) | 16:36 |
| primeministerp | zehicle_at_dell: nice name | 16:36 |
| ociuhandu | zehicle_at_dell: hi Rob | 16:36 |
| zehicle_at_dell | This is Rob Hirschfeld, I'm on the Dell OpenStack team | 16:36 |
| primeministerp | zehicle_at_dell: we're talking ceph on hyperv | 16:36 |
| zehicle_at_dell | Cool! | 16:37 |
| primeministerp | zehicle_at_dell: alexpilotti is talking about the userspace being ported to hyper-v | 16:37 |
| alexpilotti | zehicle_at_dell: can you see the previous msgs in the chat? | 16:37 |
| zehicle_at_dell | yy | 16:37 |
| alexpilotti | zehicle_at_dell: I'd like to hear your opinion on this | 16:37 |
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| alexpilotti | zehicle_at_dell: but we can talk about it later if you need time | 16:38 |
| zehicle_at_dell | intersting, so are you saying that the HyperV Cinder integration cannot use block store? | 16:38 |
| alexpilotti | zehicle_at_dell: only the iSCSI wrapper for now | 16:39 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ok, that should be OK | 16:39 |
| alexpilotti | zehicle_at_dell: fairly ok, not as good as native Ceph of course | 16:39 |
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| alexpilotti | *native RBD | 16:39 |
| zehicle_at_dell | the goal would be to have the RBD driver I'm assuming | 16:39 |
| zehicle_at_dell | client | 16:40 |
| alexpilotti | yep | 16:40 |
| primeministerp | that's what we're talking about | 16:40 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: move on to ovs? | 16:40 |
| alexpilotti | sure | 16:41 |
| primeministerp | #topic OpenVSwitch | 16:41 |
| alexpilotti | I just wanted to introduce the topic | 16:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenVSwitch (Meeting topic: hyper-v)" | 16:41 | |
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| alexpilotti | (i mean RBD) | 16:41 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: yep | 16:41 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: we should do the same now for ovs, considering your recent announcement? | 16:41 |
| zehicle_at_dell | (closing on RBD, I think it's interesting for us. Will have to reflect on it some more, it's not our first use case) | 16:42 |
| alexpilotti | zehicle_at_dell: I don't know if the news reached you, we're porting OVS to Hyper-V | 16:42 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I think that's awesome | 16:42 |
| alexpilotti | do you have any specific requirements for OVS? | 16:43 |
| alexpilotti | like specific tunnelling protocols, etc | 16:43 |
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| alexpilotti | zehicle_at_dell: ^^ | 16:44 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: ideall the same ones as the core project | 16:44 |
| zehicle_at_dell | We're looking at GRE tunnels as the integration approach | 16:44 |
| alexpilotti | ok, tx | 16:45 |
| alexpilotti | talking in general about OVS, it's a fairly big effort | 16:45 |
| alexpilotti | lot's of kernel code to be ported (including GRE and VXLAN) | 16:45 |
| alexpilotti | lots of userspace posix -> Windows migration work | 16:46 |
| alexpilotti | we're ramping up a "swat" team for it | 16:46 |
| zehicle_at_dell | what features of OVS are being planned? | 16:46 |
| zehicle_at_dell | for example, is VLAN support higher than GRE | 16:47 |
| alexpilotti | zehicle_at_dell: well, VLAN altready works with OVS on Hyper-v now | 16:47 |
| alexpilotti | zehicle_at_dell: for the rest: OpenFlow, ovsdb, all userspace tools, tiunnelling (GRE, VXLAN) | 16:48 |
| alexpilotti | those are roughly the main features involved | 16:48 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: all the usual suspects | 16:49 |
| primeministerp | ;) | 16:49 |
| alexpilotti | among the goals, we want to use the Quantum OVS agent on Hyper-V | 16:49 |
| alexpilotti | which means thet the CLI tools must be completely ported as well | 16:49 |
| zehicle_at_dell | do you have a feel for the relatative priorities? | 16:50 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | beause GRE would be high on our list since we've built infrastructure to work with that | 16:50 |
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| primeministerp | zehicle_at_dell: is the switch integration stronger now? | 16:50 |
| alexpilotti | zehicle_at_dell: we're collecting customer based priorities now | 16:51 |
| zehicle_at_dell | good question -> the choice for GRE allowed use to bypass that for now | 16:51 |
| alexpilotti | zehicle_at_dell: good to know | 16:51 |
| zehicle_at_dell | so, it was a good first pass because it was easier to get adoption started | 16:51 |
| zehicle_at_dell | VLAN would have required more switch config work | 16:51 |
| primeministerp | zehicle_at_dell: understood | 16:52 |
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| alexpilotti | zehicle_at_dell: GRE is anyway already before VXLAN oin our GANTT | 16:52 |
| zehicle_at_dell | downside is that GRE will have performance impacts | 16:52 |
| zehicle_at_dell | perfect | 16:52 |
| alexpilotti | VXLAN introduction in OVS is very recent | 16:52 |
| alexpilotti | and I expect some big changes in the tunnelling world soon | 16:52 |
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| alexpilotti | so it's hard to predict now how much VXLAN will get traction in QUantum | 16:53 |
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| primeministerp | zehicle_at_dell: do you have specific topics to add? | 16:53 |
| alexpilotti | (I keep on calling it Quantum if you don't mind for now) ;-) | 16:53 |
| primeministerp | pfkaq | 16:54 |
| alexpilotti | lol | 16:54 |
| pnavarro | lol ! | 16:54 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: any final words on ovs? | 16:54 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | for the current working set, you said VLAN was enabled? | 16:55 |
| zehicle_at_dell | against Grizzly? | 16:55 |
| alexpilotti | yep | 16:55 |
| alexpilotti | yep | 16:55 |
| primeministerp | zehicle_at_dell: yes | 16:55 |
| alexpilotti | that was our goal | 16:55 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | ok, I'll need to see where we stand on VLAN. I think we've got it in place but not our primary test path | 16:55 |
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| alexpilotti | using the Hyper-V Quantum agent with 100% OVS compatibility was the main use case | 16:56 |
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| alexpilotti | on VLAN, I mean | 16:56 |
| alexpilotti | primeministerp: should we move to the next topic? | 16:56 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: yes | 16:56 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: is there one? | 16:57 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: puppet bits are on hold until luis and i sync | 16:57 |
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| alexpilotti | if nexttopic == NULL -> endmeeting() ;-) | 16:57 |
| primeministerp | ok | 16:57 |
| primeministerp | zehicle_at_dell: anything you want to add? | 16:57 |
| primeministerp | looks like frank left | 16:58 |
| primeministerp | ok | 16:58 |
| primeministerp | #endmeeting | 16:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "R/O volumes (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 11 16:58:24 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-06-11-16.00.html | 16:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-06-11-16.00.txt | 16:58 |
| primeministerp | thanks everyone | 16:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-06-11-16.00.log.html | 16:58 |
| alexpilotti | tx bye! | 16:58 |
| pnavarro | ciao ! | 16:58 |
| ociuhandu | bye all | 16:58 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | thanks everyone! | 16:59 |
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| stevemar | keystoners assemble! | 17:59 |
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| gyee | henrynash! | 17:59 |
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| gyee | yah | 17:59 |
| henrynash | gyee: hi! | 18:00 |
| spzala | Hi! | 18:00 |
| fabio | Hi! | 18:00 |
| lbragstad | hey! stevemar nice | 18:00 |
| nachi__ | hi | 18:00 |
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| dolphm | o/ | 18:00 |
| stevemar | lbragstad, credit goes to ayoung | 18:00 |
| dolphm | no ayoung? | 18:00 |
| gyee | hey everybody, say hi to fabio, new guy from HP | 18:00 |
| dolphm | fabio: o/ | 18:01 |
| topol | hello | 18:01 |
| stevemar | hi fabio | 18:01 |
| bknudson | hi fabio | 18:01 |
| spzala | fabio: Hello | 18:01 |
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| gyee | fyi, he don't have long hairs and big muscle | 18:01 |
| lbragstad | Hey fabio | 18:01 |
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| dolphm | unnacceptable | 18:01 |
| gyee | haha | 18:01 |
| henrynash | gyee: and you still hired him? | 18:01 |
| bknudson | I can dream, can't I. | 18:01 |
| dolphm | #startmeeting keystone | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 11 18:01:50 2013 UTC. The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:01 |
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| dolphm | #topic Havana milestone 2 cut & API-level feature freeze July 16th | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Havana milestone 2 cut & API-level feature freeze July 16th (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| topol | who remembers those I cant believe its not butter commercials with Fabio? | 18:02 |
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| dolphm | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Havana_Release_Schedule | 18:02 |
| dolphm | just a reminder that api-impacting things need to land this milestone | 18:02 |
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| dolphm | so, get on identity-api reviews asap :D | 18:02 |
| dolphm | #topic High priority bugs or immediate issues? | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "High priority bugs or immediate issues? (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:03 | |
| topol | dolphm, you have a link? | 18:03 |
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| dolphm | topol: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/identity-api+status:open,n,z | 18:03 |
| topol | for identity-api reviews | 18:03 |
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| topol | thanks | 18:03 |
| dolphm | bug 1179955 is still outstanding | 18:04 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1179955 in keystone "Disabling a tenant would not disable a user token" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1179955 | 18:04 |
| gyee | was hoping to get a resolution on the inherited role stuff | 18:04 |
| dolphm | it's marked in progress and assigned to me, but i'll i've done is put up tests WIP | 18:04 |
| henrynash | gyee: on the agenda later | 18:04 |
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| henrynash | dolphm: what needs doing …the actual fix? | 18:05 |
| dolphm | henrynash: yeah | 18:05 |
| dolphm | henrynash: we should probably do a simple fix asap, but i'd like to take a long hard look at the overall problem and do a lot of refactoring | 18:05 |
| dolphm | if anyone wants to put up a fix, feel free, otherwise i'm sure i'll get to it in a couple days | 18:06 |
| dolphm | i'm not aware of any other big issues that need attention, so... | 18:06 |
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| dolphm | #topic Changing the default token backend from KVS to SQL or Memcache | 18:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Changing the default token backend from KVS to SQL or Memcache (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:06 | |
| dolphm | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1188370 | 18:06 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1188370 in keystone "kvs driver for tokens is not a production quality default" [Low,In progress] | 18:06 |
| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/32296/ | 18:06 |
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| topol | dolphm, I htought Memcache was the only one that really scales | 18:06 |
| dolphm | henrynash commented in the above review that we should also consider memcache as a viable default option | 18:06 |
| topol | +1 | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | topol: memcache does scale better, thought, it has some issues. | 18:07 |
| henrynash | I think we all agree kvs is not the right one | 18:07 |
| bknudson | we should have at least one token backend that's production quality | 18:07 |
| dolphm | topol: both are better than kvs :) | 18:07 |
| topol | SQL makes us look bad when under stress :-) | 18:07 |
| bknudson | maybe we need a note regarding each backend the quality, production or not | 18:07 |
| henrynash | is PKI the default on the client now? | 18:07 |
| dolphm | henrynash: ? | 18:07 |
| topol | PKI?? | 18:07 |
| dolphm | bknudson: kvs backends are raelly intended to be undocumented / for dev | 18:08 |
| henrynash | for tokens | 18:08 |
| dolphm | henrynash: what does the client care? | 18:08 |
| bknudson | PKI is a server setting | 18:08 |
| henrynash | (instead of UUID) | 18:08 |
| bknudson | client knows how to handle PKI or UUID | 18:08 |
| topol | PKI is default on server side | 18:08 |
| bknudson | (correct me if I'm wrong) | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: that is my understanding | 18:08 |
| bknudson | does memcache require any extra packages / server started? | 18:09 |
| henrynash | …in which case this (I think) would make the performance of memcache vs SQL somewhat mute…(since the token can be validate in the auth_token middleware | 18:09 |
| bknudson | nice thing about kvs is it doesn't require any config | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: it requires the python-memcache client, and the memcache server | 18:09 |
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| morganfainberg | running. | 18:09 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:09 |
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| morganfainberg | SQL is probably the best default since the identity drive defaults to SQL. | 18:10 |
| topol | arent those typically there? | 18:10 |
| henrynash | and the only issue is the built up of records due to us not having any auto-cleanup of expired tokens by default | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | topol: the python-memcache package, yes. | 18:10 |
| bknudson | I assume someone would have db setup for another backend (identity), so they'd already have it setup. | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: yep. | 18:10 |
| bknudson | so I'd lean towards sql. | 18:11 |
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| henrynash | bknudson: my issue is that if we do that, by default, the DB will fill for ever | 18:11 |
| topol | So SQL does not do well under stress. So you will get a lot of bug reports where you end up recommending memcache to handle the load | 18:11 |
| dolphm | henrynash: we have keystone-manage token_flush now | 18:11 |
| henrynash | dolphm: true…I assume that is a manual operation (by default) | 18:12 |
| bknudson | devstack must set the token backend to sql. | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | I am also working on some retro-fitting of the revocation lists, which will include (if I can make it happy) cleanup options | 18:12 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: for sql or memcache? | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: the revocation list cacheing BP will encompass all revocation lists | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | i'm planning on making it have semantics to cleanup SQL if enabled. | 18:13 |
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| morganfainberg | again, provided I can do it cleanly | 18:13 |
| bknudson | had we discussed before not providing so many tokens? | 18:13 |
| topol | I would recommend that we convince ourselves that SQL wont fill up anymore before it becomes the default | 18:13 |
| bknudson | this is kind of the root of the problem | 18:13 |
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| dolphm | i think the best first step is to switch to sql as a default, and then have the "should we switch to memcache" as a default after that | 18:13 |
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| gyee | +1 | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | that is the end-all solution, but we need to be tolerant of people issuing a ton of tokens. | 18:14 |
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| dolphm | ... have that *conversation* later | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | +1 to what dolphm said | 18:14 |
| dolphm | topol: it will fill up just as kvs does | 18:14 |
| dolphm | topol: so, it's not a worse solution than kvs in that respect | 18:14 |
| bknudson | I have no problem with sql as the default. | 18:15 |
| topol | dolphm, agreed. | 18:15 |
| henrynash | dolphm: Ok, agreed…let's do that | 18:15 |
| dolphm | cool | 18:15 |
| dolphm | #topic Push to complete role-assignment/inheritance api changes | 18:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Push to complete role-assignment/inheritance api changes (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:15 | |
| henrynash | so this is just a call to get any final comments into these bps…links coming up... | 18:15 |
| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/29781/ | 18:15 |
| dolphm | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/inherited-domain-roles | 18:16 |
| henrynash | thx :-) | 18:16 |
| gyee | "scope" is more extensible | 18:16 |
| bknudson | so now roles have attributes | 18:16 |
| bknudson | and aren't just names | 18:16 |
| dolphm | i haven't caught up to this conversation since thursday/friday.. | 18:16 |
| topol | I knew I would something important while on vacation... | 18:17 |
| henrynash | So roles give guidance as to how inheritance should work WHEN they get assigned | 18:17 |
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| henrynash | For everyone's info: | 18:17 |
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| henrynash | the current proposal only covers inheriting from a domain to its projects | 18:18 |
| gyee | today role definition is just a name, nothing more | 18:18 |
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| dolphm | gyee: for consumers, that won't change | 18:18 |
| dolphm | correct? | 18:18 |
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| henrynash | gyee and others would also like more global roles across all domains…What I have proposed (read the various comments) can be extended for that | 18:18 |
| henrynash | I am suggesting we put that extension into a separate proposal | 18:19 |
| gyee | dolphm, right, unless we change the policies | 18:19 |
| dolphm | don't want to impact anyone on this | 18:19 |
| henrynash | gyee: the point about "scope" vs booleans….. | 18:19 |
| gyee | role assignment is really about the scope in which the role is "applicable" | 18:19 |
| gyee | boolean is not extensible | 18:20 |
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| bknudson | I generally agree that booleans are a bad idea where an enum would be more descriptive. | 18:20 |
| henrynash | gyee: we need to have distinctions between how to apply role assignments to both domains and and projects….As per my comments, we would add a second boolean for "inherted_to_domains"…since you need all 4 states | 18:20 |
| dolphm | gyee: is there an extensibility scenario you have in mind that you didn't suggest in the code review? henrynash seems to address your concerns pretty well | 18:21 |
| gyee | henrynash, we don't want to keep adding booleans | 18:21 |
| gyee | so tomorrow we want to support othe scopes, we are going to keep adding boolean? | 18:21 |
| henrynash | gyee: we either have two booleans or all 4 states in the enum | 18:22 |
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| bknudson | http://codeclimber.net.nz/archive/2012/11/19/Why-you-should-never-use-a-boolean-field-use-an.aspx | 18:22 |
| gyee | that would be very confusing would it | 18:22 |
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| gyee | having to aggregate the two or more | 18:22 |
| gyee | bknudson, agreed 110%, booleans are bad for multistate | 18:22 |
| dolphm | gyee: the meaning of your enumerations was obviously a source of confusion in the last keystone meeting | 18:22 |
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| fabio | +1 bknudson | 18:23 |
| dolphm | gyee: perhaps there are more intuitive terms we can use, but that's my *only* opposition to your proposal | 18:23 |
| henrynash | gyee: my concern is if they are independant concepts, then is an 8 role enum better than 3 booleans? | 18:23 |
| gyee | dolphm, I am fine with different naming | 18:23 |
| gyee | but I am not fine with boolean | 18:23 |
| henrynash | gyee, dolphm: Ok, I'll document both alreatnatives in a email tonight…and I'll look to response by tomorrow…then we'll make the call | 18:24 |
| bknudson | if it turns out that the names aren't adequate maybe we go to a structure (object), or maybe we add another field. | 18:24 |
| bknudson | Either way, I | 18:24 |
| bknudson | I'd prefer names over true/false. | 18:24 |
| gyee | I am fine with either a structure, enum, or string | 18:24 |
| gyee | but not boolean | 18:24 |
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| dolphm | gyee: what's the fundamental opposition to booleans? | 18:25 |
| gyee | dolphm, role scope is multi-state | 18:25 |
| gyee | you don't want to use multiple booleans to describe multiple states | 18:25 |
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| dolphm | i really don't want to see things like 'inherits-to-projects-but-not-if-assigned-to-a-group-on-tuesdays' in the enumeration to handle dumb edge cases | 18:26 |
| gyee | enum or string gives us a lot of flexibility | 18:26 |
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| henrynash | right now we'd have (something like) | 18:27 |
| dolphm | gyee: is there some scenario you have in mind that you're designing for beyond the 4 states we're currently discussing? | 18:27 |
| atiwari | I also see an issue with defining global behavior in roleDef | 18:27 |
| henrynash | inherited_to_projects, inherited_to_domains, Inhertited_to_projects_and_domains | 18:27 |
| gyee | dolphm, and you want to represent 4 states in a boolean? | 18:27 |
| dolphm | atiwari: +1 that's a weird one, because the assignment of a 'global' role to a specific project or domain doesn't make any sense | 18:27 |
| atiwari | we have to define multiple roleDefs and which will make complexity in policy | 18:27 |
| gyee | atiwari, policies act on role names | 18:28 |
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| gyee | it doesn't care about the mechanism in which the role is obtain | 18:28 |
| dolphm | gyee: he's saying he'd have to radically expand the number of role names he's using in policy | 18:28 |
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| atiwari | that is true but think of one Nova role e.g. sys-admin | 18:28 |
| gyee | we are talking about the mechanism to assign roles | 18:28 |
| dolphm | 'admin' will have to become 'global-admin' 'domain-admin' and 'project-admin' | 18:28 |
| atiwari | how do we fit that for global and domain-global use case | 18:29 |
| gyee | atiwari, its more scarier than that :) | 18:29 |
| henrynash | atiwari: we are not defining any kind of global behaviour in the role itself….only how that role is inherited (or not) form the point of assignment | 18:29 |
| gyee | role definitions are not tied to services | 18:29 |
| gyee | you have to name your role different to avoid conflicts | 18:29 |
| topol | do we have the notion of a global-admin (ie super-admin) yet? | 18:29 |
| dolphm | henrynash: changing the semantics of how a role can be applied (defining it to be 'global' in scope) has direct impact on the way that role can be intuitively assigned | 18:29 |
| gyee | say you have an "admin" role, how can you tell its really a nova admin or swift admin? | 18:30 |
| bknudson | henrynash: the inherited_by_projects property only has an effect at the time of assignment, so that if I change the value, no existing assignments are affected? | 18:30 |
| bknudson | (which is different than a previous revision of the design) | 18:30 |
| dolphm | henrynash: PUT /projects/{project_id}/users/{user_id}/roles/{some_global_role} suddenly doesn't make sense | 18:30 |
| henrynash | dolphm: which is why we don't use the term "global" anywhere | 18:30 |
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| dolphm | yet | 18:30 |
| atiwari | gyee that is another issue which need some attention the serviceId | 18:30 |
| henrynash | dolphm: and I'm not suggesting we ever dp | 18:30 |
| henrynash | do | 18:30 |
| gyee | atiwari, absolutely | 18:31 |
| dolphm | henrynash: i know :) | 18:31 |
| henrynash | what we *might* do is add a iinherited_to_domains flag in the role... | 18:31 |
| atiwari | roleDef without a serviceId is complex to handle | 18:31 |
| gyee | inherited by projects is essentially "global" within a domain, no? | 18:31 |
| henrynash | and then if you applied (using an api that doesn't exist today) PUT /dmains/*/roles/roleId/users/userId | 18:32 |
| atiwari | and we ahev to make the role name unique all over the services | 18:32 |
| dolphm | gyee: that's not global at all, according to your definition of global | 18:32 |
| atiwari | have | 18:32 |
| gyee | dolphm, global and domain-global | 18:32 |
| henrynash | gyee: there are just too confusing | 18:32 |
| dolphm | gyee: do you get 'global' roles along with an unscoped token? | 18:32 |
| gyee | global - applicable to all projects and all domains, regardless of token scope | 18:32 |
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| gyee | dolphm, global yes, domain-global no | 18:33 |
| henrynash | gyee, dolphm: give me the floor here for 3 mins | 18:33 |
| topol | didnt we have a similar conversation last week??? | 18:33 |
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| atiwari | henrynash: I think we need to think through a use case to support global as well as domain-global roleDef for the similar capability | 18:34 |
| henrynash | the things we add to roledef should just indicate HOW we inherit (or not) roles when they are assugned | 18:34 |
| henrynash | so | 18:34 |
| atiwari | and I can see that we will endup with complex policy | 18:34 |
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| henrynash | inherit_to_projects means….IF you assign this role to a domain, it will be interpreted as being inherited to any projects within it | 18:35 |
| atiwari | I think inheritence should be enforced in the role assignment | 18:35 |
| henrynash | imagine we add inherit_to_domains as another options (via enum or whatever) to roeldef | 18:35 |
| henrynash | then | 18:35 |
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| henrynash | IF you can assign just a role to a "root" domain, then all child domains would inherit that role | 18:36 |
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| henrynash | if we ever supported nested domains, only the one below the assignment point would inherit the roles | 18:36 |
| atiwari | think you need same capabilty for a global and domain-global roleDef | 18:36 |
| atiwari | you can not get that with single roleDef | 18:37 |
| henrynash | the missing piece(for inherit_to_domains) would be to amend the assignment API to someone specify "the root" domain | 18:37 |
| henrynash | </henry> | 18:37 |
| atiwari | you have to define multiple roleDefs and hence policy | 18:37 |
| dolphm | henrynash: aaand, you've sold me on booleans | 18:37 |
| topol | henrynash why would all levels of nested domains inherit the role??? | 18:37 |
| dolphm | topol: because inherit_to_domains=true | 18:37 |
| topol | err why wouldnt? | 18:37 |
| henrynash | topol: (hyperthetcially) …onlythose domains in the tree below the assignment point | 18:37 |
| topol | but multiple levels deep, correct? | 18:38 |
| henrynash | topol: yes | 18:38 |
| topol | k, im good then | 18:38 |
| dolphm | i like how subdomains are suddenly on the table again lol | 18:38 |
| henrynash | topol: not that we have sub domains yet | 18:38 |
| topol | understood. just for my own understanding | 18:38 |
| henrynash | dolphm: I'm not pushing for them, just wanted a solution that would work with them | 18:38 |
| dolphm | henrynash: i appreciate that | 18:39 |
| gyee | henrynash, so you are proposing one boolean "inherited_to_domains" as oppose to "inherited_by_projects"? | 18:39 |
| gyee | not sure if I understand you | 18:39 |
| dolphm | gyee: both | 18:39 |
| henrynash | gyee: no, tow booleans | 18:39 |
| henrynash | inherited_to_domains, and | 18:39 |
| dolphm | gyee: inherited_by_projects today, the other tomorrow | 18:39 |
| henrynash | inherited_to_projects | 18:39 |
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| topol | I actually find the booleans easy to understand. | 18:39 |
| gyee | and they are both mutually exclusive? | 18:39 |
| dolphm | topol: +1 | 18:39 |
| bknudson | how about { "inherited": { "domains": true, "projects": true } } | 18:39 |
| henrynash | gyee: no | 18:40 |
| dolphm | topol: i share you confusion with the enumerations | 18:40 |
| atiwari | gyee +1 | 18:40 |
| henrynash | bknudson: I'm ok with taht | 18:40 |
| topol | cause if we have a hard time undersat5nding the semantics our stakeholders will forever send us bug reports | 18:40 |
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| henrynash | I actually wanted to call them "apply_to_child_projects" | 18:40 |
| dolphm | topol: +1 | 18:40 |
| henrynash | "apply_to_child_domains" | 18:40 |
| henrynash | but thought that child wasn't real a term we use | 18:41 |
| fabio | bknudson: you don't even need the boolean, you can just have a list | 18:41 |
| topol | what was wrong with inherited _to_domains and inherited_to_projects??? | 18:41 |
| bknudson | { "inherited": ["domains", "projects"] } | 18:41 |
| gyee | what happen if "domains": true, "projects": false? | 18:41 |
| fabio | yes | 18:41 |
| gyee | or the other way around? | 18:42 |
| fabio | in this way is extensible | 18:42 |
| dolphm | i think i prefer to individual booleans over the structure | 18:42 |
| fabio | you can add new concepts | 18:42 |
| henrynash | gyee; roles sit on the domain, don't get to the projects | 18:42 |
| dolphm | fabio: did you just miss the last 20 minutes of conversation? | 18:42 |
| fabio | no I did not | 18:42 |
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| fabio | why do you have to say project = true | 18:42 |
| fabio | if project is in the list it means it inherits from it | 18:43 |
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| henrynash | fabio: means it gets inherited to | 18:43 |
| atiwari | are we still thinking of having inheritable in roleDef? | 18:43 |
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| henrynash | which is kind of why I like the more descriptive booleans…."inherited_to_projects" or "apply_to_child_projects"... | 18:44 |
| henrynash | atiware: this is all about the roelDef | 18:44 |
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| dolphm | henrynash: +1 | 18:44 |
| henrynash | but { "inherited to": ["domains", "projects"] } would be your view bknudson? | 18:45 |
| gyee | henrynash, that's would be the enum approach we talked about earlier | 18:45 |
| bknudson | henrynash: yes, this would remove duplication | 18:45 |
| atiwari | henrynash: I think we are not seeing the problem with this approach | 18:45 |
| gyee | I am down with the enum approach | 18:46 |
| gyee | less confusion | 18:46 |
| gyee | and extensible | 18:46 |
| dolphm | gyee: more* confusion | 18:46 |
| fabio | I agree with bknudson | 18:46 |
| dolphm | gyee: just as extensible* | 18:46 |
| gyee | dolphm, keep adding boolean as extension? | 18:47 |
| topol | +1 on the booleans | 18:47 |
| dolphm | gyee: sure, or add an enumeration on top of that if you find a use case that booleans don't work for | 18:47 |
| bknudson | even with booleans it's not like we can't change it to a string/enum later. | 18:47 |
| bknudson | that's the power of JSON | 18:47 |
| dolphm | gyee: booleans solve the current use cases | 18:47 |
| atiwari | once we set a roleDef with any inheritance behavior that roleDef is used only for that. | 18:48 |
| atiwari | and we have to define multiple roleDefs for the same purpose | 18:48 |
| gyee | dolphm, he's use case is cloud provider version admin | 18:49 |
| gyee | that's applicable to all the domains | 18:49 |
| gyee | versus admin | 18:49 |
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| henrynash | so let's finish the booleans discussion | 18:49 |
| henrynash | I think the general agreement is two booelans or { "inherited to": ["domains", "projects"] } | 18:49 |
| topol | +2 on the booleans.. (I will keeep upping the ante) | 18:50 |
| gyee | henrynash, that looks like an enum | 18:50 |
| gyee | { "inherited to": ["domains", "projects"] } | 18:50 |
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| atiwari | -2 with this approach | 18:50 |
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| henrynash | atiwari which? { "inherited to": ["domains", "projects"] } | 18:51 |
| topol | atiwari, which approach? | 18:51 |
| atiwari | having this info in roleDef | 18:51 |
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| henrynash | dolphm: suggest we rule for two booleans for now | 18:52 |
| dolphm | +1 | 18:52 |
| henrynash | atwari: happy to take it off line and discuss your conerns | 18:52 |
| atiwari | This would cause role explosion and policy complexity. | 18:52 |
| topol | agreed, until we have use cases that show two booleans wont work | 18:52 |
| topol | (if ever) | 18:53 |
| bknudson | I thought rbac already had a problem with role explosion? | 18:53 |
| dolphm | atiwari: i don't see how the other model is any different in that respect | 18:53 |
| gyee | I need some clarification | 18:53 |
| gyee | are we going with this? { "inherited to": ["domains", "projects"] } | 18:53 |
| henrynash | atiwari: so that was my INITIAL concern over using try roleDef, but the general consensus was that was better than changing the apis to include inheritance as parameters | 18:53 |
| topol | why isnt this scenario fairly contained for what henerynash is trying to accomplish? For more complex stuff we may add somethig else, vcorrect? | 18:53 |
| atiwari | but this approach wd cause even more explosion | 18:54 |
| dolphm | topol: +1, i just want to make sure we're not screwing ourselves over on future use cases | 18:54 |
| atiwari | sorry I did not see the issue that time | 18:54 |
| atiwari | and now it seems totally wrong to me | 18:55 |
| dolphm | (5 min) | 18:55 |
| dolphm | atiwari: since we don't have much time left, can you put together an example illustrating your concern and reply to one of henry's email on openstack-dev with it? | 18:55 |
| atiwari | sure | 18:56 |
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| atiwari | I will do | 18:56 |
| gyee | dolphm, henrynash, are we going with this? { "inherited to": ["domains", "projects"] } | 18:56 |
| dolphm | inherits_to_projects = boolean | 18:56 |
| gyee | k, I am getting conflict answer then | 18:57 |
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| dolphm | did i miss something? | 18:57 |
| gyee | thought we are going with this { "inherited to": ["domains", "projects"] } | 18:57 |
| gyee | I am cool with that | 18:57 |
| topol | dolphm, please declare which way we are going. im getting confused | 18:58 |
| dolphm | gyee: that's completely identical in functionality and extensibility to inherits_to_domains + inherits_to_projects | 18:58 |
| topol | (boolean or enumeration) | 18:58 |
| gyee | +1 on enum, -1 on multiple booleans | 18:58 |
| henrynash | dolphm, gyee: yes, I see them as the same…… | 18:58 |
| dolphm | both of these are boolean-based approaches, it's just a matter of style... what we've decided is to *not* do full enumeration ('global', 'domain-global', 'project-local', etc) | 18:58 |
| dolphm | i can't even remember the full enumeration | 18:58 |
| topol | I can live either way | 18:59 |
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| henrynash | dolphm: exactly | 18:59 |
| dolphm | yay | 18:59 |
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| dolphm | #endmeeting | 18:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "R/O volumes (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 18:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 11 18:59:24 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-06-11-18.01.html | 18:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-06-11-18.01.txt | 18:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-06-11-18.01.log.html | 18:59 |
| jeblair | any ci/infra people around? | 18:59 |
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| pleia2 | o/ | 19:00 |
| clarkb | o/ | 19:00 |
| fungi | heya | 19:00 |
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| * BobBall sneaks in before anyone notices | 19:00 | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o jeblair | 19:00 | |
| * ttx is around but afflicted by hte lag-of-death | 19:00 | |
| *** jeblair changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:01 | |
| mordred | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 11 19:01:14 2013 UTC. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:01 |
| zul | helo | 19:01 |
| jeblair | can we comment when we use #link ? | 19:01 |
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| fungi | zul: ehlo will provide a lot more options | 19:01 |
| jeblair | like #link agenda http:// ...? | 19:01 |
| fungi | i thought that didn't work | 19:02 |
| olaph | o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #help | 19:02 |
| zul | fungi: if sendmail wasnt broken then it might | 19:02 |
| *** vipul|away is now known as vipul | 19:02 | |
| zaro | o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #topic actions from last meeting | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| jeblair | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-06-04-19.01.html | 19:03 |
| jeblair | mordred made a signup thingy for bootcamp! | 19:03 |
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| mordred | Indeed! | 19:03 |
| jeblair | mordred: but i think it's still missing some people, right? | 19:03 |
| BobBall | Quick Q - do you prefer us to raise items for AOB now, or wait until the open discussion to raise them? | 19:03 |
| mordred | I'm assuming that to be the case | 19:03 |
| jeblair | mordred: aren't there supposed to be some people from mirantis? | 19:03 |
| mordred | jeblair: yes. and also possibly dell and ibm (not sean) and piston | 19:04 |
| pleia2 | BobBall: typically at the end (unless you have time constraints) | 19:04 |
| BobBall | no, that's fine :) Just some people prefer the other way - was just asking :) | 19:04 |
| jeblair | BobBall: there's an open discussion time at the end (sometimes), but the agenda is open, so you can add items to https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting before the meeting too | 19:04 |
| mordred | jeblair: so, I tihnk it's going to be a crowd! | 19:04 |
| jeblair | excellent | 19:04 |
| *** jeblair sets mode: -o jeblair | 19:04 | |
| BobBall | oh drat - wish I had edited the agenda to put what I want to talk about at the start :D | 19:05 |
| * BobBall will wait patiently :) | 19:05 | |
| clarkb | jeblair: you don't like wearing hats to meetings? | 19:05 |
| jeblair | reed did summarize the trystack thing, but i haven't seen any responses | 19:05 |
| reed | yeah, no response | 19:05 |
| lloydde | signup thingy for bootcamp? | 19:05 |
| mordred | https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ZV1Ct6GlaTioWajEVoBcahRNBHRDfBRxiLRYgmQj_lg/viewform | 19:06 |
| anteaya | meetings need hats | 19:06 |
| mordred | #link https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ZV1Ct6GlaTioWajEVoBcahRNBHRDfBRxiLRYgmQj_lg/viewform | 19:06 |
| ttx | hats need signup thingies | 19:06 |
| jeblair | lloydde: a bootcamp for people who would like to become serious regular contributors to openstack-infra | 19:06 |
| lloydde | rgr | 19:06 |
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| fungi | defined as people who fix at least as much stuff as they break ;) | 19:07 |
| fungi | (hopefully) | 19:07 |
| jeblair | zul is working on a py3k ppa; though i think at the moment we're looking at f18 for testing py3k... | 19:07 |
| jeblair | fungi: careful, we don't want to recklessly change the criteria and lose mordred. :) | 19:08 |
| fungi | i think zul posted the link for that in #-infra on friday? | 19:08 |
| fungi | ha | 19:08 |
| fungi | sometimes you eat the bug, and sometimes the bug eats you | 19:08 |
| zul | fungi: yeah its ready to be tetsed | 19:08 |
| fungi | zul: that was quantal-sane but not for precise, right? | 19:08 |
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| clarkb | zul: can you #link it here? | 19:08 |
| jeblair | reed: ping | 19:09 |
| zul | fungi: precise sane | 19:09 |
| zul | clarkb: just a sec | 19:09 |
| zul | #link https://launchpad.net/~zulcss/+archive/py3k | 19:09 |
| fungi | aha. so that gives us the opportunity to do tox -epy33 as long as we stop pip-installing things system-wide | 19:09 |
| reed | sorry folks, being dragged in multiple conversations | 19:09 |
| zul | its suacy python3 rebuilt for precise | 19:09 |
| zul | (because im running saucy) | 19:10 |
| zul | like a good boy | 19:10 |
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| jeblair | #topic Mailing list | 19:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mailing list (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:10 | |
| jeblair | reed: anything going on with the general mailing list move? | 19:10 |
| reed | no relevant progress to report yet :( | 19:11 |
| jeblair | bummer | 19:11 |
| jeblair | #topic gearman (for zuul) | 19:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "gearman (for zuul) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:11 | |
| jeblair | hey i have to qualify that now. that's cool. :) | 19:12 |
| jeblair | anyway, i think zuul-gearman and gearman-plugin are ready for use in production... | 19:12 |
| clarkb | jeblair: ready today or ready after a couple more changes? | 19:12 |
| clarkb | (it wasn't clear to me after you saw the null pointer exception and if the fix was sufficient) | 19:12 |
| clarkb | also, I am super excited about getting gearman zuul going. So many shiny things can happen after that | 19:13 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:14 |
| jeblair | i'd like to make the change during a slightly less busy time... perhaps some time friday | 19:14 |
| fungi | that sounds great | 19:14 |
| jeblair | and be prepared to roll the change back if it doesn't work out | 19:14 |
| mordred | do it right now after I just pushed changes to every single core project! | 19:14 |
| ttx | clarkb: you should blog about that gearman zuul thing | 19:15 |
| jeblair | clarkb: i believe my fix for the npe is sufficient -- at least it should keep things going if something weird happens | 19:15 |
| clarkb | jeblair: ok | 19:15 |
| clarkb | ttx: no I think that honor goes to jeblair and zaro | 19:15 |
| fungi | jeblair: do we want to conflate the zuul change window with the pending project renames/cleanup, or am i jumping ahead in the meeting agenda? | 19:15 |
| ttx | clarkb: as long as they are as excited as you are, that works | 19:15 |
| jeblair | clarkb: (even if it doesn't address the actual cause) | 19:15 |
| jeblair | ttx: i am very excited. | 19:16 |
| jeblair | this is my excited face. | 19:16 |
| ttx | I want to feel the excitement too | 19:16 |
| * mordred is weirded out by jeblair's excited face | 19:17 | |
| zaro | jeblair: where will the other master be?: | 19:17 |
| ttx | ^W oops too late | 19:17 |
| jeblair | fungi: i was thinking it would be a good idea to combine them | 19:17 |
| uvirtbot | ttx: Error: "W" is not a valid command. | 19:17 |
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| jeblair | zaro: what other master? | 19:17 |
| zaro | jeblair: won't you setup with 2 masters or are you starting with just 1 ? | 19:17 |
| fungi | okay, cool. i was going to draft up an etherpad with cut-n-pasty steps for the renames, so we can integrate the zuul upgrade/rollback steps | 19:17 |
| jeblair | zaro: oh, just one. :) | 19:17 |
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| jeblair | fungi: yeah, let's see if we can schedule all those at the same time. if we can't, oh well. | 19:18 |
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| jeblair | should we aim for friday morning, or friday afternoon? (vaguely us-time)? | 19:19 |
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| fungi | i'm good with either... afternoons tend to be pretty light on gate activity | 19:20 |
| zaro | ++ morning | 19:20 |
| fungi | mornings less so, but if we announce in advance then it seems fine with me | 19:20 |
| fungi | poll? | 19:20 |
| jeblair | clarkb, mordred: thoughts? | 19:20 |
| clarkb | yeah I can do either, but afternoons are quieter and I don't mind spending time friday afternoon assisting | 19:20 |
| mordred | jeblair: I could go either | 19:21 |
| mordred | it might not be terrible to do morning though | 19:21 |
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| mordred | so that we can see it in action for a while while we're all still around | 19:21 |
| mordred | since this is, well, a fairly fundamental change to the world order | 19:21 |
| kiall | Hah - Yea, Friday afternoon deploys *always* result in a whole weekend off ;) | 19:21 |
| kiall | Esp the major ones :) | 19:21 |
| jeblair | i'm leaning toward afternoon.... | 19:22 |
| mordred | kk | 19:22 |
| jeblair | because if we find that we have to do an immediate rollback, there's less mess to clean up. | 19:22 |
| fungi | i'll be around well into the night (my time) if things break horribly and rollback isn't smooth | 19:22 |
| jeblair | #topic project renames | 19:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "project renames (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:23 | |
| jeblair | hub_cap isn't around... | 19:23 |
| jeblair | but kiall is. | 19:23 |
| jeblair | kiall: did you decide you wanted to do the moniker->designate rename now? | 19:23 |
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| kiall | So - If Gerrit is going down anyway, lets rename.. That way if the incubation proposal is rejected, no need to schedule another downtime. | 19:24 |
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| mordred | kiall: if it is accepted, we can always rename you to the openstack org whenever we rename quantum to mutnauq | 19:24 |
| jeblair | kiall, ttx: if designate is incubated, when would it be accepted? | 19:24 |
| mordred | jeblair: it would be at least 2 weeks out | 19:24 |
| kiall | 25th or so would be the TC meet | 19:25 |
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| ttx | yeah minimum in +2weeks | 19:25 |
| fungi | i just pinged hub_cap in #-trove | 19:25 |
| jeblair | okay, if we do the rename now, there is the potential to have two renames in fairly rapid succession... :/ | 19:25 |
| mordred | andit might take us more than one meeting to decide | 19:25 |
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| jeblair | kiall: but that mostly affects you... | 19:25 |
| jeblair | kiall: so i'm okay with it if you are. :) | 19:25 |
| kiall | Ah, we'll survive 2 renames.. The less we have to take gerrit down, the better IMO. | 19:26 |
| kiall | So - whatever causes the least disruption to overall set of projects. | 19:26 |
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| jeblair | kiall: is friday afternoon us-time okay with you? that'll be a hard cutover for developers where they'll have to update remotes, etc, afterwords. | 19:27 |
| kiall | Yea, that's fine. | 19:27 |
| fungi | the trove crowd says they think hub_cap is afk all day | 19:27 |
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| fungi | i asked him to hit us up in #-infra whenever he can to talk about the possibility of getting renamed friday afternoon | 19:28 |
| jeblair | fungi: cool, thx | 19:28 |
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| mordred | ttx: any chance mutnuaq will be accepted by friday? | 19:28 |
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| zul | mutnuaq? | 19:28 |
| mordred | zul: it's what jeblair and I decided quantum should be renamed to | 19:28 |
| kiall | <aside>I hope not ;) That's an awful name IMHO!</aside> | 19:28 |
| ttx | mordred: the new name might be in by Friday | 19:28 |
| zul | mordred: ah | 19:29 |
| ttx | mordred: I thought we would get it today tbh | 19:29 |
| * markmcclain is still waiting on legal feedback from the latest list | 19:29 | |
| mordred | cool | 19:29 |
| ttx | jeblair: did Mark say anything at the staff call ? | 19:29 |
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| jeblair | ttx: mark and jbryce were not on it; no one else had heard anything. :( | 19:29 |
| fungi | it was a quick call | 19:29 |
| fungi | so anyway, mutnuaq soon come | 19:30 |
| ttx | heh | 19:30 |
| jeblair | #topic Hosting gitweb on another machine | 19:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Hosting gitweb on another machine (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:30 | |
| jeblair | so gerrit's been being affected by web spiders a lot recently... | 19:30 |
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| jeblair | well, one spider (bing) | 19:30 |
| mordred | thanks microsoft! | 19:31 |
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| jeblair | so perhaps we should run gitweb (or gitblit or something) on another machine | 19:31 |
| clarkb | how important is gitweb? do we need to run it at all? (I only use it to look at acl files) | 19:31 |
| pleia2 | does anyone use that gitweb? | 19:31 |
| * ttx 's train running, may disappear unexpectantly | 19:31 | |
| clarkb | pleia2: o/ | 19:31 |
| mordred | I have used it before | 19:31 |
| ttx | clarkb: +1 | 19:31 |
| mordred | but I usually use github | 19:31 |
| jeblair | pleia2: it gets lots of hits. :) | 19:31 |
| mordred | jeblair: from not bing? | 19:32 |
| kiall | pleia2: yea, more often than I would have thought I would.. | 19:32 |
| fungi | i think it dovetails nicely into wanting to have somewhere to point people to get copies of our git repos which aren't a commercial closed-source proprietary service | 19:32 |
| pleia2 | fair enough | 19:32 |
| jeblair | so a lot of projects you know, maintain a git.project.org where they run git and gitweb or cgit or gitblit... | 19:32 |
| fungi | sticking a web interface on top of that becomes gravy | 19:32 |
| clarkb | yeah ok. I am not against it just wondering what the use case was. sounds like there is a good one | 19:32 |
| jeblair | it's also good for automated testing... | 19:33 |
| fungi | and since gerrit has gitweb links baked in (and a way to massage the urls for them?) gitweb is probably an easy sell to keep that integration intact | 19:33 |
| kiall | Is a better solution to rate limit and/or block spiders from hitting the UI? | 19:33 |
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| pleia2 | kiall: the first robot.txts file was installed yesterday :) | 19:33 |
| fungi | kiall: already done, belt and braces | 19:33 |
| jeblair | i'd rather have peoples test rigs hammering at git.openstack.org than gerrit, even with our local caching mirror | 19:34 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:34 |
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| jeblair | fungi: yeah, the gitweb links are pretty flexible; mediawiki links them to their gitblit server | 19:34 |
| fungi | in addition to the robots.txt which tells bing to cool its heels, we're still actively dropping connections from their bots with iptables | 19:34 |
| jeblair | fungi: maybe about time to remove that... | 19:35 |
| kiall | fungi: lol, how are they going to read the robots.txt then? ;) | 19:35 |
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| fungi | the robots.txt is for when the iptables rules get undone | 19:35 |
| fungi | and yeah, i can carefully undo those after the meeting | 19:36 |
| mordred | jeblair: so, external seems good- pending long bikeshed conversation about which git server thign to run | 19:36 |
| jeblair | mordred: yes. any quick thoughts on that? | 19:36 |
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| jeblair | i guess we should look at gitweb, and probably gitblit because wikimedia use it; though that means running another java app. however, it's fast and pretty. | 19:37 |
| mordred | jeblair: not really. gitlab is pretty, but also heavy weight. gitweb is what we're using now. people like cgit. gitblit is java | 19:37 |
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| jeblair | kernel.org uses cgit | 19:38 |
| jeblair | okay, so i'll file a bug and suggest that whoever takes it look at those 4 options. | 19:38 |
| mordred | kk | 19:39 |
| mordred | I'd be fine with any of them I think | 19:39 |
| mordred | I do like that git.wikimedia.org and git.kernel.org give indexes | 19:39 |
| mordred | the git.kernel.org index looks friendly to our org structure | 19:39 |
| jeblair | the wikimedia folks apparently chose gitblit at least partially because it efficiently produces tarballs | 19:39 |
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| mordred | ah. well, I do not care about that feature | 19:40 |
| jeblair | i don't think that's really a requirement for us, since we currently produce branch-tip archives | 19:40 |
| mordred | in fact, I want to avoid people thinking that's a feature | 19:40 |
| pleia2 | I can probably look at those 4 and draft up some pros/cons for our next meeting | 19:40 |
| jeblair | that's good to know. that could be an anti-requirement. | 19:40 |
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| fungi | yeah, people already want to download tarballs of our stuff from github, and that's a recipe for disaster | 19:40 |
| clarkb | yeah | 19:41 |
| jeblair | (either don't support that or be able to turn it off) | 19:41 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:41 |
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| jeblair | pleia2: cool, you want to go ahead and file the bug and assign it to yourself, at least for the first part of this? | 19:41 |
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| pleia2 | jeblair: will do | 19:41 |
| jeblair | pleia2: any toci things to discuss? | 19:42 |
| pleia2 | just quick progress update | 19:42 |
| jeblair | #action pleia2 file bug and look into gitweb-style options | 19:42 |
| jeblair | #topic TripleO Testing (TOCI) (pleia2) | 19:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "TripleO Testing (TOCI) (pleia2) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:42 | |
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| pleia2 | not a ton of news, but I can now boot the dib-created image in LXC | 19:42 |
| mordred | whee! | 19:42 |
| clarkb | pleia2: does that perform much better? | 19:42 |
| pleia2 | working out some networking issues now for proper testing to make sure all the pieces actually work | 19:42 |
| * anteaya applauds | 19:42 | |
| pleia2 | (I have dnsmasq chaos happening on my desktop right now) | 19:43 |
| mordred | mmm. desktop dnsmasq makes everything better | 19:43 |
| pleia2 | clarkb: yeah, lxc is zippy on hpcloud :) | 19:43 |
| pleia2 | that's it for now | 19:44 |
| jeblair | #topic open discussion | 19:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:44 | |
| jeblair | BobBall: ? | 19:44 |
| * BobBall peers round the corner | 19:44 | |
| BobBall | hi :) | 19:44 |
| BobBall | So - I sent an email to the list a few days ago about XenServer gating trunk | 19:44 |
| BobBall | I just wanted to pop in to have a chat with a few of you to see what you thought the best way forward was | 19:44 |
| BobBall | and what I can do to make some progress :) | 19:45 |
| fungi | what platform requirements would the tests have? | 19:45 |
| fungi | as compared with the current qemu-based testing i mean | 19:45 |
| BobBall | We can run on the RS cloud - but I've not tested on the HP cloud (XenServer on top of KVM would be ... interesting!) | 19:45 |
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| pleia2 | BobBall: actually, it would be interesting if that worked (kvm on kvm doesn't work), I can test if you have some instructions for how I'd go about it | 19:46 |
| pleia2 | ^^ in hpcloud | 19:46 |
| BobBall | perhaps I don't understand enough about the current system - what do you mean by qemu based? | 19:46 |
| uvirtbot | pleia2: Error: "^" is not a valid command. | 19:46 |
| mordred | so, dprince has automation around doing this we can look at, right? | 19:46 |
| BobBall | dprince's automation is running on physical | 19:47 |
| mordred | also, we need a xenserver instance to exist outside of the context of the openstack install, correct? | 19:47 |
| jeblair | BobBall: we're currently only running the devstack-gate tests on hpcloud because rs got very slow a while back... i think we saw something like 150% of hpcloud's runtime... | 19:47 |
| clarkb | jeblair: > 200% in many cases | 19:47 |
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| mordred | I wonder what xenserver on top of xenserver performance in rax cloud would look like? | 19:48 |
| BobBall | pleia2: Sure thing - got an email addr I can send some details to? It's basically "install and set tgt=off" for XS but I don't know what'd work for KVM. It's running under Qemu in both cases, with no PV, so it _should_ work... | 19:48 |
| pleia2 | BobBall: lyz@princessleia.com - thanks! | 19:48 |
| BobBall | Performance wouldn't be great - disk access and network would be emulated rather than PV but we might be able to mitigate with a small ram disk for the SR | 19:49 |
| mordred | BobBall: I have no idea what PV or SR mean | 19:49 |
| clarkb | does xenserver require licensing? | 19:49 |
| BobBall | and yes, mordred, nova runs in a VM for a XenServer install - might make it easy(?) to re-use VMs rather than install XS each time | 19:49 |
| BobBall | no clarkb - no licensing - Free edition does everything that's needed and as of the next version of XenServer there will be no paid-for licenses (within the month) | 19:50 |
| pleia2 | cool | 19:50 |
| mordred | BobBall: I think we're going to need to learn more about XenServer | 19:50 |
| fungi | got it. so this wouldn't necessarily be an all-in-one devstack vm with xenserver installed in the same base vm i guess | 19:50 |
| mordred | BobBall: part of the problem I'm having right now is that I'm asking questoins based on words I've heard people say in passing | 19:50 |
| BobBall | No problem at all :) | 19:50 |
| BobBall | There are other options too that we might consider | 19:51 |
| mordred | that's an excellent question from fungi - is this something accomplishable via devstack? | 19:51 |
| mordred | in an all-in-one? or is this something that our other work on multi-machine deployments might be needed for? | 19:51 |
| BobBall | I'm mainly interested in XenAPI - XenServer is the ideal, but we can also install XenAPI-like packages on many other bases (e.g. CentOS, Ubuntu etc) | 19:51 |
| BobBall | Yes, devstack installs on XS - but it takes a while because it sets up a Ubuntu VM | 19:51 |
| fungi | i was more wondering whether xenserver can be integrated within devstack itself | 19:52 |
| fungi | in other words, can xenserver run within a devstack machine | 19:52 |
| mordred | well, I know lifeless has a todo list item to talk to rackspace about getting their xenserver install done via tripleo | 19:52 |
| BobBall | I don't see a reason why not fungi | 19:52 |
| BobBall | not tested that though | 19:52 |
| mordred | so, it's entirely possible that we might have a decent story for how this works once we have a story for how testing anything via tripleo works | 19:52 |
| BobBall | but after all it's just a VM running in qemu! | 19:52 |
| fungi | in which case we already have a way to roll devstack onto a vm and run things and gate on that | 19:53 |
| pleia2 | mordred: yeah, I'm thinking this is all closely related | 19:53 |
| mordred | pleia2: yes. I think I'd like to avoid solving this as a special case | 19:53 |
| mordred | pleia2: and instead deal with it as part of the general case | 19:53 |
| * pleia2 nods | 19:53 | |
| BobBall | Yeah - I read the comments about tripleo but I didn't really understand the bigger picture of how it fitted together :) | 19:53 |
| lifeless | pleia2: cool news | 19:53 |
| mordred | lifeless: any thoughts on the above re: xenserver? | 19:54 |
| lifeless | mordred: quick synopsis? | 19:54 |
| mordred | lifeless: BobBall wants to test xenserver in the gate | 19:54 |
| mordred | lifeless: there are logistical issues (we need to install xenserver somewhere) | 19:54 |
| mordred | lifeless: and it seems like somethign that we might want to solve as an iteration of pleia2's work on tripleo testing | 19:55 |
| BobBall | install either as VM or physical | 19:55 |
| lifeless | cool; both devstack and bootstack will require a VM with a XenServer image in it to do that. | 19:55 |
| lifeless | or a physical machine with ditto | 19:55 |
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| mordred | yah | 19:55 |
| lifeless | tripleo is probably a better harness for doing it on physical | 19:55 |
| mordred | well, let's leave physical machien out of the loop for now | 19:55 |
| lifeless | as we're targeting that end2end | 19:55 |
| jeblair | mordred: so devstack-gate supports multiple image types... | 19:55 |
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| jeblair | mordred: perhaps it's a matter of doing this: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/XenServer/InstallDebianUbuntu#Installing_XCP_on_Ubuntu_12.04 | 19:55 |
| lifeless | devstack knows how to setup such a VM already I think? If so thats the lowest cost path to get going. | 19:56 |
| BobBall | hmmm - just thinking out loud... it should be quite easy to generate an image that has an installed XS with a prepared devstack VM (minus the repos of course) already installed... Then that can just be restored, started, and it's all ready | 19:56 |
| mordred | BobBall: well, we have machinery to do image saving and all of that | 19:57 |
| jeblair | BobBall: the devstack-gate tests run devstack on prepapred images... | 19:57 |
| mordred | the thing we need to sort is what content are we putting in to the images we're going to boot in the cloud and whatnot | 19:57 |
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| BobBall | I see | 19:57 |
| jeblair | BobBall: the test itself runs devstack because we want that to be part of the test | 19:57 |
| lifeless | mordred: so my thoughts are that it doesn't seem all that coupled to tripleo||devstack, other than like tripleo it wants a different content on the root image | 19:57 |
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| lifeless | mordred: and tripleo thanks to lxc doesn't need that anymore. | 19:57 |
| mordred | agree | 19:58 |
| mordred | I thought it was more complex originally | 19:58 |
| jeblair | BobBall: but we prepare images for it by caching things devstack needs onto it | 19:58 |
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| BobBall | understood | 19:58 |
| jeblair | BobBall: I believe we could also prepare a variant with xen already installed | 19:58 |
| jeblair | BobBall: so then the test would be "spin up vm from previously prepared image with xen installed. run devstack. run tempest" | 19:59 |
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| jeblair | BobBall: would that general approach work? | 19:59 |
| mordred | yup. the main question will be around performance | 19:59 |
| mordred | of running that image that has xen installed on a vm in the cloud | 19:59 |
| * olaph pretends to be a timer. ding! | 19:59 | |
| jeblair | BobBall: https://github.com/openstack-infra/devstack-gate/blob/master/README.rst | 20:00 |
| mordred | but I think it's a worthwhile path forward to investigate | 20:00 |
| BobBall | yes - with one minor comment - as I said, with devstack running in a VM under Xen we'd need to set that VM up too and include it in the base image | 20:00 |
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| jeblair | BobBall: you may want to read that to familiarize yourself with devstack-gate's process | 20:00 |
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| fungi | i think we can go over if we want, since i believe ttx cancelled the tc meeting (that's what would be following this, right?) | 20:00 |
| jeblair | BobBall: okay, i think i'm missing something because it sounds like you're talking about an extra level of virtualization than i'm considering | 20:00 |
| BobBall | ok - so what actions do I need to take? 1) email pleia2 with how to test XS on HP's cloud, 2) read up on devstack-gate's process, 3) test performance of tempest in RS cloud | 20:01 |
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| clarkb | BobBall: well we already know the performance and we won't be able to gate on it. I think we need to see what we can do with hp cloud | 20:01 |
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| BobBall | jeblair: XenAPI is installed on the base OS (which could be virtual), but nova and the rest of devstack run in a VM on that host | 20:01 |
| clarkb | unless xen makes everything magically faster | 20:01 |
| pleia2 | clarkb: yeah | 20:02 |
| mordred | BobBall: why do they run in a vm? | 20:02 |
| BobBall | clarkb: I meant the relative degredation of having xen virtualised for the tempest tests | 20:02 |
| mordred | can xenapi and nova and the rest of devstack not both run on the same host? | 20:02 |
| jeblair | BobBall: why do they run in a vm on that host? the current system just runs devstack+nova on the cloud host. | 20:02 |
| lifeless | mordred: its' not the xen way | 20:03 |
| BobBall | There are a number of reasons we run in a VM - in theory we could run in dom0, yes, but that'd need quite a few changes. Things like mounting the VMs disks is easier in a VM rather than dom0 - although doable | 20:03 |
| lifeless | mordred: you have a privileged vm instead AIUI | 20:03 |
| BobBall | the biggest reason is historical I'm afraid | 20:03 |
| mordred | ok. so that sounds lke it's more work | 20:03 |
| BobBall | *nod* | 20:03 |
| mordred | because all of a sudden we're back to running devstack in a vm on the host that we're running on | 20:04 |
| mordred | which our automation does not do right now | 20:04 |
| BobBall | ahhh - understood | 20:04 |
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| jeblair | mordred: that's what lead you to think tripleo was a fit? | 20:04 |
| mordred | yes | 20:04 |
| mordred | because it's a similar problem space of layers | 20:04 |
| mordred | not that we need tripleo for xen | 20:04 |
| BobBall | So - in summary of that - it would be significantly easier if devstack+nova were running in dom0 | 20:05 |
| jeblair | mordred: yeah, in that case, i think pleia2's work would help, but if it could run in dom0, then it would be a pretty trivial devstack-gate change | 20:05 |
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| mordred | yes to both of you | 20:05 |
| BobBall | We would definitely need xen-api changes to handle that, but it's eminently doable | 20:06 |
| jeblair | mordred: (in fact, i think devananda added the hook for that already) | 20:06 |
| mordred | so, let's have the takeaways be that BobBall and pleia2 talk about xenserver some more | 20:06 |
| pleia2 | great | 20:06 |
| mordred | that BobBall learn a little bit about devstack-gate | 20:06 |
| BobBall | *nod* | 20:06 |
| mordred | and that all of us brainstorm a little bit | 20:06 |
| clarkb | sounds good | 20:06 |
| jeblair | ++ | 20:06 |
| fungi | agreed | 20:06 |
| BobBall | Works for me | 20:06 |
| mordred | whee! | 20:06 |
| anteaya | is BobBall attending the infra bootcamp? | 20:06 |
| BobBall | Sounds like I've got a fun week! | 20:06 |
| mordred | BobBall: are you attending the infra bootcamp? | 20:07 |
| BobBall | I get the feeling that I should have been paying more attention when you were talking about the bootcamp earlier | 20:07 |
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| BobBall | I'd like to say yes - this is an important thing for us | 20:07 |
| BobBall | so I'll look into it with a very probable yes | 20:08 |
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| mordred | cool. tl;dr - June 27/28 NYC - the aim is to get people bootstrapped with the knowledge they need to start being core contributors to openstack infra | 20:09 |
| BobBall | Wow - I'd get a trip to NYC out of it too! Now I'll definitely push for it. | 20:09 |
| clarkb | ha | 20:09 |
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| jeblair | thanks everyone! | 20:10 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:10 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 11 20:10:18 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:10 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-06-11-19.01.html | 20:10 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-06-11-19.01.txt | 20:10 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-06-11-19.01.log.html | 20:10 |
| BobBall | Thanks for all your help guys - and for overrunning! | 20:10 |
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| ttx | Reminder: no release/status meeting this week. | 20:59 |
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| jpich | No sign of the chair. Is anyone else around for the Horizon meeting? | 22:06 |
| lcheng | o/ | 22:07 |
| kspear | jpich: Hi, around, but don't have anything in particular to talk about | 22:07 |
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| jpich | Hey there! I think I have one tiny thing to bring up, let's have a quick one then, maybe someone else will jump in too | 22:07 |
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| kspear | go for it | 22:07 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 22:07 |
| jpich | #startmeeting horizon | 22:08 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 11 22:08:01 2013 UTC. The chair is jpich. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 22:08 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 22:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: horizon)" | 22:08 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'horizon' | 22:08 |
| jpich | Hi everyone, thanks for being here with us today | 22:08 |
| jpich | #topic Blueprints and bugs | 22:08 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints and bugs (Meeting topic: horizon)" | 22:08 | |
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| jpich | Ok, the main thing I wanted to bring up is on behalf of mrunge, who doesn't seem to be online anymore | 22:08 |
| jpich | there are a couple of very big cleanup patches that have been submitted, mostly about cleaning up the imports | 22:09 |
| jpich | It probably would be nice for the authors if we could make an effort at reviewing them quickly enough, so they don't have to be rebased which would probably be a misery | 22:10 |
| jpich | ...Anything else relating to bugs and blueprints? | 22:11 |
| * jpich unfortunately not on top of reviews at the moment so no other comments | 22:11 | |
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| lcheng | I am still working on the v3 auth support for keystone-client. This is blocking the https://blueprints.launchpad.net/horizon/+spec/login-domain-support | 22:12 |
| lcheng | It is currently in review, but probably will still be awhile before it gets merged. Quite a number of files to review. | 22:13 |
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| lcheng | That's all from my side. | 22:13 |
| jpich | Sounds good! We're just starting havana-2 so I'd assume it'll still be good for this milestone, hopefully | 22:14 |
| david-lyle | and I have the domain context support bp done except for a few more unit tests | 22:15 |
| david-lyle | next day or so | 22:15 |
| jpich | yay unit tests :-) | 22:15 |
| david-lyle | then hopefully I can catch up on reviews | 22:15 |
| jpich | Cool | 22:16 |
| david-lyle | is the ceilometer integration to trunk in progress? | 22:16 |
| jpich | david-lyle: It's available at https://github.com/yuanotes/horizon/tree/ceilometer | 22:16 |
| david-lyle | thanks! | 22:17 |
| jpich | I had a look last week, it looks like it should be submittable through gerrit soon (added a few review comments on the blueprint) | 22:17 |
| david-lyle | even better :) | 22:17 |
| jpich | I'm not sure what's the best way to review something that's not in gerrit yet | 22:17 |
| jpich | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/horizon/+spec/ceilometer | 22:17 |
| david-lyle | seems a work in progress submission to gerrit would be easier | 22:18 |
| jpich | david-lyle: Feel free to have a look too, my devstack ceilometer self-destructed along the way so I couldn't really look at how it works, only what I assume the code does :-) | 22:18 |
| jpich | I find multiple commits in a series like that can be awkward to review as well though | 22:19 |
| jpich | The git history can definitely be improved with a bit of squashing in this case. We'll see how it goes, I agree we should get it in gerrit soon | 22:19 |
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| jpich | #topic Open discussion | 22:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: horizon)" | 22:20 | |
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| jpich | If anyone has anything somewhat Horizon related they'd like to bring up, go for it | 22:20 |
| david-lyle | any strong opinions re: HACKING.rst? | 22:22 |
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| david-lyle | I know there are some patches moving in that direction | 22:22 |
| jpich | Not particularly. It looks like it should help make things more consistent? | 22:23 |
| jpich | That's the way the consensus seemed to go on the mailing list, yeah. Do you have concerns? | 22:23 |
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| david-lyle | not really, just didn't really get a feel for a Horizon consensus | 22:23 |
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| jpich | True. The general feeling seems to be that this increases the consistency with the other projects, and should help with rebases and style consistency | 22:26 |
| david-lyle | anything to helps reduce rebases is certainly a plus | 22:26 |
| kspear | i'm not too fond of "import only modules" when it comes to classes | 22:27 |
| kspear | and i think we should talk about new-style relative imports at some point | 22:28 |
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| kspear | i don't see the danger of the new-style | 22:28 |
| david-lyle | nor do I | 22:29 |
| jpich | If that's something that can/should be done as part of the patches for hacking.rst, it sounds like it would be worthwhile bringing up now | 22:29 |
| kspear | because of the nesting in openstack_dashboard our import lines can get huge | 22:29 |
| jpich | as a bug or a ML dicussion? | 22:29 |
| kspear | i'll add a reply to the ML discussion | 22:29 |
| kspear | it is important we stay reasonably consistent with the rest of openstack | 22:30 |
| kspear | so would be good to get consensus on it | 22:30 |
| jpich | thanks kspear | 22:30 |
| clarkb | is anyone interested in implementing/fixing https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/1177924 ? we (the CI team) are trying to testr all of the projects where it makes sense (and currently we think that is true for just about all of them). gabrielhurley did some preliminary investigation I think and I would be happy to help someone fix that | 22:30 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1177924 in cinder "Use testr instead of nose as the unittest runner." [Medium,In progress] | 22:30 |
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| kspear | clarkb: I looked into that briefly | 22:30 |
| kspear | seems we need a django test runner that runs testr? | 22:31 |
| clarkb | kspear: are you using a django test runner or just nose? | 22:31 |
| clarkb | I thought you guys were just running nose | 22:31 |
| kspear | we use django_nose | 22:31 |
| kspear | which does the same thing for nose | 22:31 |
| kspear | it's a test runner that runs nose | 22:31 |
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| clarkb | I see | 22:32 |
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| kspear | the test runner is important because there's special django setup that needs to be done | 22:32 |
| lifeless | which is a massive django bug :) | 22:32 |
| lifeless | anyhow, what you need is a custom runner that will glue a subunit result object in, which is about 10 lines. | 22:33 |
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| kspear | lifeless: can you help with that? | 22:33 |
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| kspear | i don't have any experience with testr/subunit | 22:33 |
| lifeless | kspear: I can certainly advise | 22:34 |
| lifeless | its been a while since I actively poked at django | 22:35 |
| kspear | lifeless: thanks. well i'll see how far I get, couldn't see see any examples on the web of where this has been done before | 22:36 |
| lifeless | kspear: if you look at the source for subunit.run it should be pretty obvious: | 22:36 |
| lifeless | where you do suite.run(result), result should be a testtools.ExtendedToStreamResult(subunit.v2.StreamResultToBytes(sys.stdout)) | 22:37 |
| kspear | lifeless: okay, will do. | 22:37 |
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| lifeless | kspear: + you need to implement the list-tests and load-list features, to let testr enumerate and select tests to run. | 22:37 |
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| lifeless | kspear: http://testrepository.readthedocs.org/en/latest/MANUAL.html#listing-tests and http://testrepository.readthedocs.org/en/latest/MANUAL.html#running-tests | 22:38 |
| kspear | lifeless: cool, thanks for the pointers | 22:39 |
| lifeless | kspear: so you should be able to keep your current django suite stuff (per https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.2/topics/testing/#defining-a-test-runner) and just override the result, plus add teh load-and-list facilities. | 22:39 |
| lifeless | kspear: please reach out on any issues | 22:40 |
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| kspear | lifeless: will do, thanks | 22:40 |
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| jpich | Cool, thanks | 22:42 |
| jpich | Anything else from anyone? | 22:42 |
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| jpich | Thank you everyone, have a nice day/afternoon/evening/night :) | 22:45 |
| jpich | #endmeeting | 22:45 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:45 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 11 22:45:09 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:45 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-06-11-22.08.html | 22:45 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-06-11-22.08.txt | 22:45 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-06-11-22.08.log.html | 22:45 |
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| kspear | thanks jpich, have a good week everyone | 22:45 |
| david-lyle | thanks jpich | 22:45 |
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