Tuesday, 2013-07-23

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n0ano #startmeeting scheduler15:00
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openstackn0ano: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee'15:00
n0ano#startmeeting scheduler15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 23 15:00:53 2013 UTC.  The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'scheduler'15:00
* n0ano can't type this morning15:01
n0anoanyone here for the scheduler meeting?15:01
PaulMurrayI'm here for scheduler15:01
alaskihere, but multitasking unfortunately15:02
n0anoalaski, NP, we just give you all the actions, you can't defend :-)15:02
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n0anowe have some potentially contentious issues today, let's get started15:03
n0ano#topic ceilometer vs. nova metric collector15:03
*** openstack changes topic to "ceilometer vs. nova metric collector (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:03
n0anoI don't know if the thread on the dev list has bottomed out on this, I still think it makes sense to extend the current scheduler and not rely exclusively on ceilometer15:04
PaulMurrayI was in that thread15:04
PaulMurrayThere are two issues for me15:05
PaulMurrayI am working on network aware scheduling15:05
alaskiI like the idea of using ceilometer, but agree that it can be a future thing.  I think it makes sense to share a lib if possible, and make sure we get an api that will work for both.15:05
PaulMurraywhich is not the same as the analytical kind of stuff15:05
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n0anoalaski, +115:05
jog0perhaps we can get a joint ceilometer nova session at teh summit on this15:06
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n0anojog0, we should, I just don't want development to stop waiting for the next summit15:06
jog0agreed, from the ML thread it sounded like everyone thought a non-ceilometer mode made sense15:07
n0anonote I have a slightly vested interest, my group is working on these changes to the scheduler but obviously we think that's the right way to go.15:07
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jog0and at teh summit we can re-evaluate where that line is and how the two projects could work together15:07
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jog0n0ano: not sure what happened to it but there as top level sheduler idea once so nova and cinder have one scheduler15:08
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n0anoI'm hearing concensus here - extend the scheduler for now, have a joint session at the summit with scheduler & ceilometer to see intersections15:09
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n0anojog0, I haven't seen that, do you think there was a BP about it?15:10
PaulMurrayI agree15:10
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alaskin0ano: +115:10
jog0n0ano: don't remember now it was an idea that floated around for a while15:10
PaulMurrayTo some extent15:10
alaskiI don't think there was a bp about it, but I rememeber the joint scheduler talk15:10
gliksonyep. there was a session on this in the last summit, and noone seemed to interested to work on ceilometer integration..15:10
PaulMurrayCan I ask what you mean by extend the scheduler in thsi case15:11
jog0n0ano: I think timing wise getting any major scheduler extensions in H3 will be hard so they need to be proposed ASAP15:11
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n0anoglikson, sigh, I guess we'll try again in Hong Kong15:11
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n0anoPaulMurray, we're talking about the ability to add plugins to provide extra scheduling info15:12
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PaulMurrayn0ano thanks, the question I have is15:12
jgallardjog0, it was https://blueprints.launchpad.net/oslo/+spec/oslo-scheduler ?15:12
jog0n0ano: the generic ability to do so easier then currently?15:12
PaulMurrayabout the resoruce consumption part15:12
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n0anojog0, yes, that's the idea15:13
jog0jgallard:that was different that was different schedulers but dedup code base15:13
PaulMurrayDo you see a need for the scheduler and compute nodes to ccheck resoruce consumption15:13
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PaulMurrayas the claims do for example15:13
PaulMurrayThat part was missing for me15:13
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n0anoPaulMurray, what do you mean by `check`15:13
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PaulMurrayI want to do the same as say ram_mb, free_ram_mb, ram_mb_used15:14
PaulMurraythe comupte node makes sure it has capacity - it doesn't jsut accept instances15:14
PaulMurraythe scheduler also updates hoststate15:14
jog0PaulMurray: I think you are hitting on one of the main complaints people have today15:14
PaulMurraywhat is your opinion?15:14
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llu-laptopPaulMurray: Have you seen my reply to your concern in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/35764/. The main problem is that we need to have a way to tell scheduler which kind of resource will be consumed, and how much for each instance15:15
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n0anoI'm still confused, to me it's simple, compute node report their resource capabilities to the scheduler and then the scheduler makes decisions based upon that15:15
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jog0n0ano: and you need to add that logic all over the code base15:16
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n0anoI don't like the idea of duplicating the scheduler work in the compute nodes15:16
jog0resulting in a complex change to supportnew resoure tracking15:17
PaulMurrayn0ano that is the way it is now for static allocations15:17
llu-laptopn0ano: PaulMurry is talking about the resources like free_mem, which is touched by both scheduler and compute node in consumption15:17
jog0n0ano: we do that now, with the retry logic15:17
n0anojog0, should be simple, a plugin for the compute node to report new usage info, a filter plugin for the scheduler to use that info.15:17
PaulMurrayn0ano - exactly my thinking15:17
jog0and DB update, and resource tracker15:18
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Alexei_987jog0: you should also consider algorithm efficiency - it's already quite slow and will become even slower if we use such approach15:18
jog0Alexei_987: that is a different discussion IMHO15:19
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n0anojog0, I've never understood the retry logic but the DB should only be updated by the compute node so where's the overlap?15:19
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jog0n0ano: the reyry logic is to handle race conditiosn in scheduling15:19
jog0where scheduler sends instance to a node that cannot handle it15:19
PaulMurrayn0ano - the retry logic works with multiple schedulers as well as just the asynchrony15:19
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PaulMurrayA scheduler can be wrong about what is out there15:20
jog0node checks the requirments and if it cannot run the node it reschedules15:20
jog0so we already have scheduling code on compute nodes15:20
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n0anojog0, scheduling code on the compute node - that just seems wrong, should the compute node fail the start request and then the scheduler should try again15:21
gliksonjog0: if I understand correctly, you are suggesting that nova-compute will double-check that it can accept the request instead of just passing it down to the hypervisor?15:21
jog0n0ano: I am not suggesting anything, just stating current status15:21
PaulMurraythe compute node is ultimately in control of what it can do15:22
jog0PaulMurray: exactly15:22
PaulMurraythat is a sound relaibility control if nothing else15:22
PaulMurrayother services can be wrong about the state of the world15:22
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n0anojog0, indeed, I'm thinking that's an area that needs to be looked at again, the current implementation seems wrong15:22
PaulMurraypossibly due to failure15:22
jog0n0ano: we are way off topic now15:23
jog0lets keep the meeting on topic15:23
jog0we finished the ceilometer vs nova discussion15:23
jog0then this turned into simple plugin discussion15:23
n0anosomeone should slap the moderator to keep things in line :-)15:23
n0anoyes, let's move on15:24
n0ano#agreed extend the scheduler for now, have a joint session at the summit with scheduler & ceilometer to see intersections15:24
n0ano#topic a simple way to improve nova scheduler15:24
*** openstack changes topic to "a simple way to improve nova scheduler (Meeting topic: scheduler)"15:24
PaulMurrayIs this the no db one15:24
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n0anothis to me is back to something we talked about weeks ago, DB update vs. fan out messages15:25
jog0fan out == bad IMHO, sounsd like snooping vs directory for cache coherence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_coherence#Cache_coherence_mechanisms15:25
jog0that being said we need more numbers to understand this15:26
n0anojog0, not sure about the concern15:26
alaskiI'm going to quickly jump in for the last topic and say that I'm working to remove retry logic from computes, and move it to conductor.  But otherwise everything that was said stands.15:26
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PaulMurrayI have built virtual infrastructures that work the "fan-out" way15:27
jog0alaski: -- doing scheduling validation anywhere  but compute node raises the risk of race conditions15:27
n0anoone problem I have is, currently, the compute nodes update the DB and also send a fan out message so we're doing both15:27
jog0PaulMurray: sure fan-out broadcasts can work but at some point the fall over15:28
jog0n0ano: agreed my vote is kill fanout15:28
PaulMurrayjog0 well - I was going to say15:28
alaskijog0: compute still validates, but it's at the request of the conductor before sending the build there.15:28
jog0there was a ML thread about it a few weeks back15:28
PaulMurraythat there are a lot of good arguments for the db approach15:28
n0anojog0, and I would vote to kill the DB15:28
alaskiagree on killing fanout15:28
jog0alaski: why?15:28
n0anobut at least we agree that one of them needs to be killed15:28
jog0broadcast to scheduler means we are sending tons of duplicate data15:29
jog0and if we overload one scheduler thread with updates they all overload15:30
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PaulMurrayjog0 we must be using different protocols15:30
PaulMurraythat didn't happen for us15:30
n0anowell, I would also like to remove the periodic update and only send messages when state on the compute node changes15:30
PaulMurraythe problems we had are more to do with tooling15:30
jog0we distribute the load by multiplying it by number ofschedulers15:30
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PaulMurraydb is easy to inspect and debug - big in production env15:30
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alaskijog0: to centralize scheduling logic for later taskflow work.  but it's getting confusing to have this conversation in the middle of another.15:30
Alexei_987jog0: the problem with such approach is that we cannot distibute DB15:31
jog0n0ano: as the meeting chair which conversation? no db and return to alaski15:31
n0anoalaski, jog0 - yes, let's try and conentrate on the DB vs. fanout for now15:31
n0anowe can take up the retry issues later15:31
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jog0Alexei_987: can you clarify15:32
Alexei_987 jog0: for each scheduling request we read data about ALL compute node + we do 2 table joins15:32
Alexei_987jog0: such solution won't scale if one DB server won't be able to handle the load15:32
jog0Alexei_987: so you are making a big assumption here: that we cannot cahnge how we use the DB15:33
jog0but we can15:33
jog0we don't have to do two joins or read all compute nodes15:33
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Alexei_987jog0: how can we read info from DB without them?15:33
Alexei_987jog0: we need to read all data cause we do filtering and weig15:34
jog0Alexei_987: we can do some filtering in DB15:34
Alexei_987jog0: sorry.. we do filtering in python code15:34
jog0once again you are assuming we cannto change the basic scheduling logic15:34
Alexei_987jog0: do you have a proposition how can we improve that?15:35
n0anolet's reset, seems to be agreement that the current DB usage is a scalability problem...15:35
PaulMurrayagreed +55615:35
n0anowe can solve the problem by removing the DB access or coming up with a way to make the DB access more scalable15:35
jog0dont agree fullu15:36
jog0n0ano: the issue IMHO is the current scheduler doesn't scale15:36
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alaskiAnd from the other side, many of us feel that fanouts and RPC traffic are a scalability problem.15:36
jog0as validated by bluehost15:36
n0anojog0, I believe bluehost was hit by the periodic update, remove that and their problems will potentially be much easier15:37
jog0n0ano: yes, that IMHO is step 115:37
jog0either way we want to do that15:37
n0anonote, removing the periodic update is independent of DB vs. fanout15:37
jog0n0ano: right15:37
boris-42n0ano +115:38
boris-42I don't see any reason to keep data in DB15:38
n0anoso do we have agreement that removing the periodic update is the first thing that has to go?15:38
boris-42RPC is much faster then DB any way15:38
jog0well mostly, thigns get funny if you do RPC casts to scheduler  instead of dB and assume you can loose a msg15:38
boris-42and what about DB15:38
boris-42we are working through RPC15:38
boris-42and we are able to lost msg15:39
boris-42and our compute node won't be updated15:39
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boris-42we are trying to imagine new problems15:39
jog0call vs cast.a nd conductor is optional15:39
boris-42when we have already real problems15:39
jog0boris-42: slow down, we are taking baby steps here15:39
boris-42why we are not able to remove DB use RPC (and then try to find better then RPC method)15:40
jog0IMHO after removing periodic update the next step is to better quantify the next scalling limits15:40
jog0and get good numbers on potential solutions15:40
PaulMurrayCan I jump in here15:40
boris-42jog0 go in nova?15:41
jog0PaulMurray: please15:41
PaulMurrayWe need to keep an eye on production15:41
n0anojog0, indeed, I think the periodic update is swamping scalability so much we need to remove it and then measure things15:41
PaulMurrayas well as simple performance15:41
PaulMurrayperformance is a big deal15:41
PaulMurrayand scalability15:41
PaulMurraybut right now we have tooling that15:41
PaulMurrayallows us to inspect what is going on15:41
PaulMurrayI am all for a change15:41
PaulMurraybut we need to make sure we do it with15:42
PaulMurraysecurity, reliability, ha,15:42
PaulMurrayand debuggability (if thats a word)15:42
PaulMurrayin mind15:42
jog0PaulMurray: ++15:42
PaulMurraySo what ever15:42
n0anoPaulMurray, I like your thought process15:42
PaulMurraysmall change we make to start removing the databased15:43
PaulMurray(if that is what we do)15:43
PaulMurraymust allow all these15:43
n0anobut I think your concerns are addressable even if we remove the DB15:43
PaulMurrayI agree15:43
PaulMurrayBut it is more complex15:43
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PaulMurrayNot undoable - jsut a bigger step than it seems15:44
PaulMurraySorry - didnt' mean to kill the dicussion15:44
n0anobasically, the `simple` should be removed from the topic :-)15:44
n0anoPaulMurray, no, reality check is always good15:45
Alexei_987I propose to start with doing clear diagrams of existing scheduling process15:45
n0anoare we exhausted over this discussion for now, still room for thought on the mailing list15:46
Alexei_987to get better understanding of the flow and how it can be improved15:46
gliksonsounds like a good topic for the upcoming summit :-)15:46
n0anoAlexei_987, I want to do that it's just I've been mired in unrelated stuff so far15:46
boris-42Also we should just compare 2 approaches in numbers DB vs RPC15:47
jog0n0ano: we ahve one action item from this15:47
jog0err two15:47
jog0someone kill periodic update15:47
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boris-42jog0 periodic updates are not problem15:47
gliksonseems that there is no consensus at the moment regarding both "simple" and "improve" about the proposed method..15:47
boris-42jog0 so big problem15:47
n0ano#action kill the periodic update (even if just for scalability measurements)15:47
jog0and this one while we are at it (https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1178008)15:47
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1178008 in nova "publish_service_capabilities does a fanout to all nova-compute" [Undecided,Triaged]15:47
jog0boris-42: see aboive15:48
n0ano#action analyze the `current` scheduler15:48
jog0and the other action item is get better numbers on boris-42 proposal along with how to reproduce the results15:48
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jog0numbers on current scheduler along with proposal15:49
n0anojog0, which numbers, the DB access or scheduler overhead15:49
boris-42devananda pls15:49
jog0n0ano: all and any that will help us decide15:49
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boris-42devananda could you say something about JOINs?)15:49
jog0boris-42: see above ^.15:50
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boris-42what should I see, I don't understand15:50
llu-laptopjust want to be more clear, is the 'kill the periodic update' the same thing as the bug jog0 mentioned?15:50
boris-42periodic task are not our problem in this moment15:50
jog0llu-laptop: not exactly they are related though15:51
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boris-42revmoving or not removing we will have the same situation +-15:51
n0anoboris-42, I believe they are a problem in that they are swamping scalabity measurements15:51
boris-42nano they will be the next problem when we remove JOIN15:52
llu-laptopI think boris-42 problem is the DB joinload, right?15:52
boris-42llu-laptop yes15:52
boris-42JOINs are always problem15:52
jog0sure one issue at a time15:52
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boris-42jog0 priority is important thing15:53
n0anojog0, +115:53
boris-42jog0 JOIN has critical priority15:53
boris-42jog0 periodic_task low15:53
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n0anoboris-42, note that bluehost show significant scalabiity issues that we are pretty sure are related to the periodic updates so they couldn't even look at the join issue15:53
jog0boris-42: but join wont be fixed before Icehouse it too late15:54
jog0n0ano: exactly15:54
llu-laptopIs there any bp about the 'killing periodic update' thing?15:55
n0anono, but I'd be willing to create one15:55
boris-42llu-laptom I think that it is too late for such changes15:55
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boris-42it is much worse then remove join15:56
boris-42because we are changing behavior15:56
n0anowell, for havanna it's too late but there's always icehouse15:56
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n0anoof course, I think it too late to change the join for havanna also15:56
ogelbukhdoes nova-compute updates state on provision/deprovision?15:56
n0anoogelbukh, yes (the DB) and it also does the periodic update15:57
ogelbukhn0ano: thanks15:57
jog0n0ano: it shouldn't be a big change http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-June/010485.html15:57
jog0the periodic update is hardly used right now15:58
n0ano#action n0ano to create BP to remove the periodic update15:58
ogelbukhso, only service state basically gets lost if periodic updates just dropped?15:58
ogelbukhnot lost15:58
jog0ogelbukh: service state? that is seperate15:58
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n0anoogelbukh, we need to consider things like lost messages, new compute nodes, restarted compute nodes - the end cases are alway the problem.15:59
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PaulMurrayn0ano doesn't the stats reporting introduce more if it is added?15:59
ogelbukhn0ano: sure, just trying to get my head around this15:59
n0anohey guys, it's the top of the hour and I have to run, great meeting (we missed one topic but there's always next week)15:59
boris-42jog0 One question16:00
boris-42jog0 If we remove DB, but keep periodic_task. And it will work good on 10k or 30k nodes16:00
n0anoPaulMurray, it's already there (we're doing a lot of extra work right now)16:00
boris-42jog0 experimatnal hosts16:00
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boris-42jog0 will you change priority of removing periodic_task16:00
PaulMurraygood speaking to you all16:00
n0anosorry but I have to run16:01
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"16:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 23 16:01:09 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-07-23-15.00.html16:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-07-23-15.00.txt16:01
jog0boris-42: sure,  we can even add it back in16:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-07-23-15.00.log.html16:01
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jog0if anyone wants to keep talking I will be in -nova16:02
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ayoungKeystone !!!!!18:00
dolphmgyee: bknudson: poke18:00
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dolphm#startmeeting keystone18:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 23 18:01:10 2013 UTC.  The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:01
dolphm#topic Havana Milestone 318:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Havana Milestone 3 (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:01
dolphmcongrats on m2 everyone :)18:01
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dolphmi think that was one of the smoothest milestone releases in terms of bugs, etc, since like folsom18:02
gyeetime for a vacation18:02
dolphmi'll be out beginning of next week lol18:02
ayoungdolphm, that is cuz no other project was treating it as feature freeze and  battling us for the commit queue18:02
dolphmand our new deadline is milestone-3 - september 4th18:03
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stevemarthought it was aug21?18:03
dolphmat that point, feature freeze for havana kicks in and then it bug fixing until summit18:03
dolphm#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Havana_Release_Schedule18:03
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dolphmnothing is aug 2118:03
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ayoungWell, actually it is my folks anniversary18:03
henrynashayoung: congrats!18:04
dolphmnothing steve cares about is aug 2118:04
* ayoung ducks18:04
bknudsonthat must be what stevemar was thinking of.18:04
stevemari might care about ayoung folks?!18:04
dolphmi mean, i'll be there if there's food18:04
gyeeme 218:04
stevemarnvm, i was looking at the dev list, it was nova related18:04
bknudsonnova's got their own problems.18:05
dolphm#topic High priority bugs or immediate issues?18:05
*** openstack changes topic to "High priority bugs or immediate issues? (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:05
henrynashone thing - could someone send me some guidance on doing a stable/grizzly patch?18:06
dolphmhenrynash: sure, ping me after18:06
bknudsongit cherry-pick18:06
ayoungbknudson, only if he's lucky18:06
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henrynashdolphm, bknudson: thx18:06
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dolphmi'm assuming there's no major public issues, bugs have been quiet18:06
ayoungnone that I am aware of18:07
bknudsonno security reports lately!18:07
dolphmokay, so from the off-list mail thread...18:07
dolphm#topic Identity API v3.118:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Identity API v3.1 (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:07
dolphmis now final, as of havana-m218:07
dolphmwhich means any changes proposed against the core api should be marked v3.2, and implemented in icehouse18:07
bknudsonthe docs just need to match the code18:07
dolphmor, merged in icehouse18:07
ayoungdolphm, I assume that means that the focus is going to change to extensions until then18:08
bknudsonwhat about 4.0?18:08
dolphmayoung: ideally, the focus should be on stability18:08
henrynashbknudson: yep, we're getting there: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/37000/ (but not done yet)18:08
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gyeedolphm, and performance?18:08
dolphmbknudson: if we have a reason to introduce major backwards incompatibilities to the api we'll have to bump to v4.018:09
ayoungdolphm, I meant that new features should get implemented as extensions, and they can become core later18:09
dolphmbknudson: but other than fixing bad status codes and stuff, i don't see a viable reason to do a major version bump18:09
topolyay stability18:09
ayoungI think termie has already claimed 5.0 for himself18:09
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dolphmand then straight from the agenda- "API-impacting changes must be disabled by default (as optional middleware) or be limited to backwards-compatible bug fixes"18:10
ayoungso, that should probably include SQL migrations18:10
dolphmi know henrynash said he had some points he wanted clarified .. henrynash?18:10
bknudsondo 3.1 extensions turn into core 3.2?18:10
dolphmbknudson: not necessarily18:10
dolphmbknudson: if we see 100% of deployments enabling an extension and fussing over why it's not core, then it should become core18:11
henrynashdolphm: it was the phrase "no new methods for core APIs"…or something like that in ayoung's proposed email18:11
ayoungbknudson, I'd say it is more likely that nothing big can become core from here on out without being an extension first18:11
jamielennoxhaving more things as extensions permanently makes sense  to me18:11
topolayoung, why?18:11
henrynashdolphm; are we saying we can't change the code inside a core API even if there is no API change?18:12
ayounghenrynash, I was distinguishing between changing the params or input data for a URL/method  and adding a whole new URL  or method to an existing URL18:12
dolphmthe fundamental seperation between core and extensions is intended seperate portable, required and expected functionality and optional, deployment-specific features18:12
dolphmso, not everyone has a use case for domains, so domains could/should have been an extension18:12
gyeedolphm, I did implemented domains as extension once :)18:13
dolphmayoung: both of those can be accomplished via extensions18:13
gyeein contrib18:13
jamielennoxquick question, now that the api is at v3.1, is that supposed to be reflected in GET / ?18:13
topolintriguing, so dolphm you feel the common subset of what everyone needs has been reached???18:13
dolphmgyee: yeah, i am glad it's a core concept though18:13
ayoungdolphm, exactly.  That was what I was trying to convey in my email18:13
dolphmtopol: i can't imagine that's the case lol18:13
ayoungtopol, more like the intersection, which is effectively the empty set18:13
topoldolphm, thats how I interpreted your statement18:14
dolphmtopol: there are like 3 resources in the v2.0 core spec, only because that's all we could agree on as 'required, expected functionality'18:14
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dolphmcreate token, list tenants, validate token18:14
ayoungso, for extensions, we need to have separate migrations,  which is the driving force behind this diff:  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/36731/18:14
ayoungand that one needs alembic, which I have a WIP for18:15
topolso for example storing credentials. If you decide to do more in that space it would not be core additions?18:15
dolphmjamielennox: yes... someone ran into a bug when they tried to change that though... i'll look around18:15
henrynashayoung: so I'll be pedantic…in my policy/protection bp, I am technically changing the parameters to a core function (it's just not visible or exposed via a url) - see identity/controller.py in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/38308/18:15
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henrynashayoung: this is kind of what I was concerned about18:16
ayounghenrynash, _check_protection?18:16
dolphmhenrynash: what's a core function?18:16
ayoungdolphm, I think he means he is changing the policy enforcement for core functions18:16
dolphmi'm still not sure what a core function is18:17
topoldo we have a picture that shows what is declared core and what are extensions?18:17
ayoungso ones that would have succeeded in the past would now fail a lociy check, or vice versa18:17
dolphmtopol: you mean like a diagram with pie charts and puppies?18:17
topolwhen I see the 3.1 API I think all of that is core18:17
henrynashyoung, dolphm: and pass an extra parameter into, say, get_user() - see line 61118:17
ayoungdolphm a core function is a function of a controller that maps to a public URL18:17
topoldolphm, core list on the left, extensions on the right :-)18:18
dolphmtopol: this defines core https://github.com/openstack/identity-api/blob/master/openstack-identity-api/v3/src/markdown/identity-api-v3.md18:18
gyeehenrynash, you changing the query string filters?18:18
dolphmtopol: the entire doc18:18
ayounghenrynash, I don't think that is going to fly18:18
henrynashgyee: no18:18
topoldolphm, perfect18:18
gyeeso what API change are we talking about?18:18
henrynashayoung: why?18:18
ayounghenrynash, is that going to change the public interface>?18:18
topoldolphm, and we wont ever add to that doc again??? Im guessing of course we will18:18
henrynashayoung: no18:18
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ayoungOh, ok,  then the general approach is OK,18:19
dolphmtopol: we are -- we continued to add to it and maintain it after v3.0 -> v3.118:19
dolphmtopol: we can do the same for v3.1 -> v3.2 so we don't have to maintain multiple docs18:19
topolso ergo  core will keep expanding18:19
henrynashayoung: ok, I think so too.18:19
dolphmtopol: yes, but a client may only implement v3.1, and v3.2 has to be compatible with such clients, etc18:19
topoldolphm, agreed18:20
dolphmand vice versa, a client may understand v3.2, but the server only speaks v3.1, and that needs to work too18:20
topol+100 on backward compatibility18:20
ayounghenrynash, You are just trying to get the attributes down to where the decision needs to be made.  IN generla, that is OK.  Lets discuss the mechanism after the meeting18:20
henrynashayoung: correct, and agreed18:20
gyeeayoung, henrynash, that would not be a core API change then18:21
bknudsondolphm: do clients need to know if they're talking to v3.2 or v3.1?18:21
dolphmhenrynash: your change doesn't look like it affects the http api at all18:21
ayoungas I was saying before, core devs, when reviewing extension changes, do not let in any more changes to the sql migrations from new extensions.18:21
dolphmbknudson: yes18:21
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dolphmbknudson: well, they should18:21
ayoungfixing old migrations is OK18:21
bknudsondolphm: how do they know?18:21
dolphmbknudson: GET /18:21
jamielennoxbknudson, i would say yes if they want to use a 3.2 feature18:22
dolphmbknudson: or GET /v3/18:22
henrynashayoung, gyee: which is which I was trying to get clarification of exactly what the API was defined as (e.g. the one mapped to a url or the line of parameters in the controller function)18:22
ayoungor extentions that already have migrations in the common18:22
ayounghenrynash, the web API18:22
dolphmhenrynash: HTTP API18:22
ayoungGET /v3/users18:22
henrynashayoung: Ok, fine.  total agreement :-)18:22
dolphmhenrynash: the internal implementation-specific api's are completely up to us18:22
ayoungso if a current API doesn't have, say, HEAD right now, adding that is a new method18:22
dolphmayoung: +118:23
topolayoung, whats the issue with new sql migrations?18:23
ayoungtopol, a couple things18:23
topolcant those be done and stay backwards compatible?18:23
gyeeayoung, not sure if I agree to no new migration for extensions18:23
ayoungthink along these lines:  we want to be able to take an extension and deploy it in its own server.18:23
gyeemost extensions require schema changes18:23
ayounggyee, exactly18:23
topolgyee +118:23
dolphmgyee: should be schema additions18:23
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dolphmor, a new schema18:24
ayounggyee, and those should be in an extension specific repo18:24
ayoungnot in the common18:24
ayoungthat is the point of the first review I posted18:24
topolso ayoung you are hiding the trash under the rug?18:24
bknudsonayoung: does migration know what schema is being migrated?18:24
bknudsonis the extension passed in to keystone-migrate?18:24
ayoungbknudson, yes18:24
ayoungbknudson, the issue is that migrations do it differently than alembic18:24
ayoungand I don'18:25
ayoungt know alembic well enough yet18:25
ayoungbut for the current migration scheme, it goes into a separate row in the migrations table18:25
bknudsonayoung: should extensions use alembic?18:25
dolphmbknudson: i'd like them to18:25
gyeedolphm, ayoung, I think that's a fair statement, schema addition is allowed18:25
ayoung#link http://paste.openstack.org/show/41431/18:26
bknudsonayoung: it would be good to have an example.18:26
gyeeas long as extension can superimpose the new schema on the existing one, we should be fine18:26
dolphmbknudson: the community is generally leaning towards alembic, and i'm certainly on board my self... if we're going to make a transition from sqlalchemy-migrate to alembic, i'd rather do it on one migration repository than 10 (9 of which we don't have yet today)18:26
ayoungbknudson, so I made it work for simo's kds code, but it was using the current migration scheme, not alembic18:26
ayoungstill learning alembic.18:26
topolK, so the benefits of Alembic and the new migration scheme are???18:27
ayounggyee, so in the migrations table right now I have18:27
lbragstad#link https://alembic.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ FYI on Alembic18:27
ayoungkeystone      | /opt/stack/keystone/keystone/common/sql/migrate_repo |      2918:28
ayoungand to do an extension for kds it would be18:28
ayoungkds      | /opt/stack/keystone/keystone/contrib/kds/sql/migrate_repo |      118:28
topolIm assuming it solves an issue we have...18:28
ayoungalembic's system is more like git, in that it usese hashes, paretns, etc18:28
ayoungbut I don't know if alembic will support multiple repos or not18:29
bknudsontopol: sqlalchemy-migrate is unsupported.18:29
topolwill the number or migration operations decrease???18:29
ayoungtopol, also, it does all of the migrations ins a single commit18:29
henrynashayong: is an extension migration only run when it is enabled?18:29
topolbknudson, THANKS for the explanation18:29
topolunsupported -- bad18:29
henrynashayoung: is an extension migration only run when it is enabled?18:29
gyeeayoung, in which order the migration happens, core first, then contrib?18:29
ayounghenrynash, good question18:29
ayounggyee, should be irrelevant18:29
topolsingle commit -- good. Im on board18:29
bknudsonayoung: I thought you said you had to pass the extension to keystone db_sync18:30
ayounggyee, an extension should not know about core tables and vice versa.  They should only communicate via code18:30
dolphmbknudson: topol: technically it's been unsupported, but it's now being run by our community18:30
gyeeayoung, what if contrib have dependency on core schema?18:30
gyeelike foreign key or something18:30
ayoungbknudson, that was dolphm 's suggestion, but we hadn't discussed it yet18:30
bknudsonayoung: because otherwise how does db_sync know what extensions are enabled?18:31
dolphmbknudson: the only catch with that is that db_sync already has an optional positional argument18:31
bknudsonparse the pipeline?18:31
gyeeayoung, amen brother!18:31
dolphm(migration number)18:31
ayoungdolphm, we could do a separate CLI param for extensions if needs be18:31
bknudsonuse --extension18:31
ayoungor something less horrible18:32
bknudsonor --extensions18:32
ayoungbknudson, =118:32
dolphmthere's a lot of tooling today that's already calling db_sync and expecting everything to be done18:32
gyeeayoung, I think performance may such a little, but its a price worth paying in exchange for sanity :)18:32
ayoungdolphm, so I would not mind it being done based on active extensions18:32
bknudsonmaybe there's some paste.ini magic.18:32
jamielennoxwhy would we do a seperate call? if it's in db_sync there is no problem running db_sync if the rest of the db is up to date18:32
dolphmayoung: keystone-manage has no idea what the deployment pipeline will look like18:33
ayoungjamielennox, lets assume we want to deploy just kds.  We should only get the KDS schema on that system18:33
dolphmbknudson: you can have more than one paste file18:33
jamielennoxayoung, i'd suggest the cost of a number of empty tables that aren't accessed is pretty low18:33
ayoungdolphm, would it be that wrong for manage to use the paste config?18:33
jamielennoxnot optimal, but easier for configurers18:34
dolphmayoung: if you can answer "which paste config" then perhaps not18:34
ayoungdolphm, there is a function in keystone/config which sorts that out IIRC18:34
dolphmayoung: you have no guarantee that's the only pipeline that the backend is supporting18:35
ayoungdolphm, how about adding the pipeline to db_sync?18:35
dolphmwhat does that mean18:35
ayoungextensions could have their own pipeline18:35
* dolphm facepalm18:35
* ayoung 's work here is done18:36
dolphm#topic Havana milestoen 3 blueprints18:36
*** openstack changes topic to "Havana milestoen 3 blueprints (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:36
dolphm#link https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/havana-318:36
ayoung#action ayoung to sort out the db_sync strategy for extensions18:36
dolphmbetween now and next week, we need to revise this list18:36
dolphmso if there are blueprints you plan on working during m3 which are not on this list, speak up!18:36
dolphmregister them18:36
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henrynashdolphm: there was the pagination one…let me find it18:37
bknudsonhow do we request a blueprint goes into h3?18:37
dolphmthere's also a few blueprints on here we might want to untarget from m3 (like bp notifications)18:37
ayoungdolphm, should I add the SQL migration thing as a blueprint?  I was doing it as a prereq, but it seesm to have grown in scope18:37
gyeedolphm, I think fabio is working on the endpoint filtering bp18:37
henrynash#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/pagination-backend-support18:37
lbragstadyeah, wondering how we are going to go about hten since it is blocked my rpc-api-review work in oslo18:37
gyeefabio, please confirm18:37
dolphmbknudson: poke me about it, if nothing else, i'm not sure what permissions people have on launchpad, but i can definitely help18:37
bknudsondolphm: ok. I've been requested to implement some kind of translation blueprint.18:38
ayoungdolphm, guessing that heckj is not going to have time to work on  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/keystone-performance-benchmark18:38
dolphmlbragstad: it's been on my wishlist all of havana, but i think we need to retarget to 'next'18:38
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fabioyes I am working on the ep-filter18:38
dolphmayoung: agree, although we've had some activity around benchmarking recently... we might be able to rubberstamp it as completed out of band18:38
ayoungdolphm, cool18:38
gyeedolphm, can you please add the endpoint filtering to the m3 list?18:38
* topol who keeps filtering endpoint filtering out of the m3 list??? :-)18:39
ayoungdolphm, so all of the extension blueprints should depend on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/multiple-sql-migrate-repos18:39
lbragstaddolphm: should we think about an implementation using the existing rpc stuff in oslo?18:39
gyeetopol, we are not getting into my filter is bigger than your filter war are we?18:39
ayoungthat is KDS, endpoint filtering, OAuth,18:40
ayoungDomain Quotas18:40
topollol. no I always lose those18:40
dolphmlbragstad: i'm pretty sure someone did, and that got blocked too?18:40
gyeewho's working on domain quota?18:40
bknudsonI thought the problem with notifications is we don't want to require eventlet?18:40
ayoung Tiago Everton Ferraz Martins gyee18:41
dolphmthere's two quota bp's in progress18:41
dolphmthey'll have to resolve their differences18:41
lbragstaddolphm: I think it is blocked because there are dependencies on eventlet in the rpc module of oslo. That's another thing I am working on in oslo for unified logging18:41
gyeeone's from HP I think18:41
dolphmlbragstad: ++18:41
dolphmthis is the other one https://review.openstack.org/#/c/37545/18:42
dolphmquota storage18:42
lbragstadSo I'm wondering if we should implement notifications on the current rpc stuff at least until the rpc api review has landed. Not sure when that is going to go in...18:42
bknudsonlbragstad: what's the current rpc stuff? is that different than oslo rpc?18:43
topollbragstad, what is "the current rpc stuff"??18:43
dolphmlbragstad: considering we're late to the notifications party already, i would think it'd be best to wait, but if you want to pursue it...18:43
lbragstadtopol: bknudson sorry, right the current implemtation of the rpc module in Oslo-incubator18:43
lbragstadgetting link18:43
lbragstad#link https://github.com/openstack/oslo-incubator/tree/master/openstack/common/rpc18:44
ayoungdolphm, can we set aside a few minute to talke client issues18:44
lbragstad#link https://github.com/openstack/oslo-incubator/tree/master/openstack/common/notifier18:44
ayoungat the end18:44
dolphmayoung: sure18:44
ayoungmy issue with the notifications stuff was that it was inherantly eventlet specific.  I'm OK with us taking on some event deps so long as Keystone in Apache will continue to work in a non greenthread manner18:45
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ayoungentend dpes = "new eventlet dependencies"18:46
ayoungevent deps = "new eventlet dependencies"18:46
bknudsonayoung: how do we show that?18:46
bknudsontry it?18:46
ayoungbknudson, yes18:46
ayoungbknudson, there is an open review for devstack support for Keystone running in HTTPD18:46
ayoungthat should take away some of the pain18:47
bknudsonlbragstad: so I think we know what we need to do? try it.18:47
dolphmayoung: have you ever thought about standing up apache as a reverse proxy to keystone?18:47
lbragstadbknudson: ok18:47
lbragstadthat will require us to sync oslo to keystone18:47
bknudsonlbragstad: try it in a sandbox18:47
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bknudson(on your own system)18:48
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lbragstadbknudson: yep18:48
ayoungdolphm, "reverse" proxy  meaning do SSL terminiation and stuff in httpd, and run keystone in eventlet?18:48
jamielennoxdolphm, it has been done, there are some weird hacks around REMOTE_USER but it works18:48
dolphmayoung: yes to the first part18:48
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dolphmayoung: and run keystone somewhere-else-it-doesnt-matter18:48
topolwhy is that better than running keystone in HTTPD?18:49
bknudsondolphm: what's the concern? run keystone-all by itself and have apache forward requests to it?18:49
dolphmbknudson: i didn't say keystone-all, but sure18:49
jamielennoxbut it is better to just have it managed in the one place18:49
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dolphmi poked at running keystone in gunicorn yesterday18:49
bknudsonI thought the problem was keystone-all is problematic.18:49
dolphmbknudson: i wasn't using keystone-all18:49
topoldon't you still have the security holes when running in reverse proxy mode?18:50
jamielennoxtopol, holes?18:50
bknudsontopol: do you know about some security holes?18:50
dolphmtopol: donuts?18:50
topolso if keystone runs in apache we get all the benefits that Apache provides (SSl, etc)18:50
dolphm#topic open discussion18:50
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:51
topoldon't some of those go away in the other config?18:51
dolphmtopol: behind* apache is all that matters, i think18:51
henrynashi wanted to raise the support of vw in non-keystone clients18:51
dolphmtopol: whether it's actually running via mod_wsgi, keystone-all, nginx+gunicorn, etc doesn't matter18:51
henrynashbknudson: yes, v3 support in things like novaclient18:51
lbragstadso if the sandbox notifications work should we remove the bp that is a prereq for notification?18:51
topoldolphm, need to verify that with the paranoid security folks18:52
gyeeyou guys aware of the KC changes to support pluggable auth?18:52
henrynashdolphm: do we know the plan for getting v3 support in novaclient etc.?18:53
gyeelike passing an auth object to the client18:53
dolphmgyee: i haven't seen a reviwe yet18:53
ayoungdolphm, I've thought about it.  The short of it is that I think eventlet is a mismatch for Keystone, and working around it has proven problematic.    I want to be able to remove eventlet from the equasion.  I think the Apache benefits are, as your point out, mostly in doing better HTTP handling like SSL and Authentication.18:53
dolphmhenrynash: i'm not sure there's a hard plan anywhere :-/ getting v3 auth into keystone was a major step18:53
jamielennoxyea, i like the strategy - my concern is we made him bring the auth plugins into keystone (where they belong), but how do we get the other clients to update keystone to the point where they can use those plugins?18:54
dolphmhenrynash: i think the next step is having keystoneclient own the options it wants other client to specify18:54
jamielennoxwe will need to do a global kc version bump to something not released yet18:54
dolphm--os-user-domain-id, etc18:54
ayoungso what are the steps18:54
gyeedolphm, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/3642718:54
ayoung1.  Make keystone client CLI work with the auth review18:54
bknudsongyee: abandoned?18:54
gyeeits trying to use the same mechanism as novaclient18:55
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bknudsonran out of time or decided not a good idea?18:55
ayoung2.  look at another client that already works with keystoneclient and make it auth clean.18:55
bknudsonthe plugin should be common.18:55
henrynashdolphm: when you mean own, you mean somehow do the parsing for those parameters?18:55
gyeebknudson, I was trying to figure out if its fundamentally different from the direction ayoung's going18:55
ayoungjamielennox, is already working on makeing the auth_token middleware use requests18:55
jamielennoxi think should be considered deprecated in favour of https://review.openstack.org/#/c/28043/18:55
bknudsonjamielennox: that's a lot of code!18:56
jamielennoxyea, but most of it is from oslo (or at least proposed)18:56
dolphmhenrynash: i'd like openstackclient, for example, to pass keystone a argparse parser, and have keystoneclient populate it with whatever options it expects18:56
gyeebknudson, no shit!18:56
ayounggyee, take a look at the reveiw that jamielennox posted.  I think it handles the same things as your review.  Alessio Ababilov's put a lot of effort into it, just submitted It to oslo first18:56
jamielennoxbut yes, and i think both subtly change how the client gets initiated18:57
topolgyee +118:57
dolphmhenrynash: i'm not sure that's the *best* way for keystoneclient to own that stuff, but it's an easy one18:57
henrynashdolphm: understand your point18:57
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topollets draw straws on who gets to review that18:57
dolphmhenrynash: if we can boil down the process to like 3 lines of boilerplate that other projects can include, we win18:57
gyeetopol, I am going to be like termie, start that review with a -2 :)18:58
henrynashdolphm: agreed….18:58
ayounggyee, no you are not18:58
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topolI know termie is still alive because he "liked" one of my daughter's instagram photos.  1st time ever18:59
ayounggyee, work with Allesio on getting that sorted out.18:59
jamielennoxi've had a look through, the code is pretty good as it has been through a dozen rounds of oslo already. It's just hard to say that it's doing everything the same and trying to figure out if it prevents us doing anything new18:59
ayoungI think that you guys are headed in the same general direction18:59
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ayoungOK, times up19:00
gyeeayoung, I was half joking, just need to spend some time on it19:00
* topol half joking... half19:00
ayoungdolphm, you want to send out the feature freeze message?19:00
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dolphmhenrynash: ^19:01
ayoungdolphm, +119:01
henrynashdolphm: get the idea19:01
bknudsondolphm: does it need the version?19:02
bknudsonoh, probably not19:02
ayoungbknudson, probably at the packaging level, not here19:02
dolphmbknudson: it would be up to keystoneclient to reach out to the auth url and find out what versions are available19:02
jamielennoxfor cli options, append anything to ^19:02
dolphmbknudson: and abstract that all away from both end users and other clients19:02
topolhow much code change in all the clients?19:03
dolphmthe goal being: never maintain auth code in other clients, own it in one client19:03
dolphmtopol: hopefully a lot of deletes19:03
ayoungwe're about to get kicked out19:03
bknudsonswift is always the oddball19:03
topolhow good are we at getting them to update their client per our desires?19:03
dolphmsorry guys!19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:03
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 23 19:03:50 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:03
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-07-23-18.01.html19:03
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-07-23-18.01.txt19:03
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-07-23-18.01.log.html19:03
dolphmstab me at 2p19:03
dolphmor 4 minutes ago whatever hour19:04
dolphmunless -ci is at OSCON lol19:04
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clarkbdolphm: yes most of the infra team is at OSCON19:09
* dolphm jealous19:09
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gabrielhurleyAnybody actually around for the Horizon meeting?21:59
timductive1I'm here but not much to discuss21:59
med_likely at OSCON21:59
gabrielhurleyI didn't cancel it, but I'm not sure there's a lot to talk about21:59
jcoufalgabrielhurley: at least I am here :)21:59
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gabrielhurleywe'll have a quick one then21:59
gabrielhurley#startmeeting horizon21:59
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 23 21:59:53 2013 UTC.  The chair is gabrielhurley. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:59
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:59
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: horizon)"21:59
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'horizon'21:59
gabrielhurley#topic overview22:00
*** openstack changes topic to "overview (Meeting topic: horizon)"22:00
gabrielhurleyHello to those of you who are here. Thanks for being around.22:00
jcoufalHi all22:00
gabrielhurleyLast week we cut the H2 milestone, that's awesome.22:00
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gabrielhurleythis week is mostly a "get stuff done or go to OSCON" week, so a lot of people are out, and hopefully everyone's just working hard.22:01
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gabrielhurley#topic blueprints22:01
*** openstack changes topic to "blueprints (Meeting topic: horizon)"22:01
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gabrielhurleyI've got nothing new to report for myself. I know there's been progress on the keystoneclient/client unpinning effort which I'll let others speak to, and anyone who wants to give an update is welcome to.22:01
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gabrielhurleydavid-lyle, lcheng: care to speak on the client stuff?22:02
lchengStill trying the get the latest openstack_auth consumed by horizon.22:02
david-lyleI think the change that went in this morning was the last unpinning work, so we can adopt keystoneclient 0.3+ as desired22:02
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jcoufalabout navigation enhancements - there is no more activity on mailing thread, so I am going to wrap up the discussion and start designing proposals to cover mentioned issues22:03
david-lylelcheng: that's unblocked by openstack/requirements right?22:03
gabrielhurleydid ceilometerclient get its update?22:03
gabrielhurleythat was the last blocker for the client stuff22:03
lchengThere is a major bug fix made in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/37563/ for running openstack_auth in Keystone V3.22:04
david-lyleyeah, we had to wait to everyone else got their changes in22:04
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lchengWe would need to release a new version of openstack_auth and use that version.22:04
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gabrielhurleydavid-lyle: then yeah, we should be unblocked on that.22:04
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gabrielhurleylcheng: I need to make sure I know the right way to do a release for that now that it's in gerrit22:04
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gabrielhurleyI'll work on that ASAP22:04
gabrielhurleyjcoufal: sounds great22:04
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lchengdavid-lyle: yes, that matches what's in openstack/requirements22:05
gabrielhurley#action gabrielhurley to tag and release new openstack_auth version22:06
gabrielhurleyanybody else with blueprint updates?22:06
lchengRelated to keystone-client, I'm keeping an eye on this: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/28043/22:06
gabrielhurleyah, I hadn't seen that review22:06
gabrielhurleythat's good to know about22:06
jcoufaldavid-lyle: last week you wanted to discuss something about nav enhancements, is that still on?22:06
timductive1I've got a blueprint to update the Heat Topology now that a few features have been pushed through in Heat22:07
lchengThere are some code changes that could break openstack_auth.22:07
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david-lylejcoufal: we can do it in the blueprint I just wanted to mention that not a lot of input was coming in, hoping others would chime in22:08
gabrielhurleylcheng: I'll be curious to see how that shakes out now that openstack_auth is also in the gating22:08
jcoufaldavid-lyle: alright, we can continue there after I do the summary22:08
gabrielhurleytimductive1: yep. certainly looking forward to seeing that22:08
gabrielhurleyjcoufal, david-lyle: I'll probably have more input once I see some wireframes22:09
timductive1gabrielhurley: Thanks I'm hoping to have a code review up this week22:09
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gabrielhurleyeven better :-)22:09
jcoufalgabrielhurley: definitely, will be working on that and let you all know once they are out22:09
gabrielhurley#topic open discussion22:09
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: horizon)"22:09
gabrielhurleyLet's just make this general talk time22:10
gabrielhurleyit's more for the logs than anything22:10
jcoufaljust quick reminder about UX discussions22:10
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jcoufalI would let people one last week for proposals22:11
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jcoufaland after that let vote for best tool from all proposals we have22:11
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jcoufalso I encourage everybody who has some suggestions, feel free to follow discussion in mailing list22:12
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gabrielhurleyanybody else?22:13
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lchenggabrielhurley: got a question on some hanging code22:14
timductive1is anyone actively working on wireframes for the nav enhancement?22:14
lchengDoes anyone know if the code in https://github.com/openstack/horizon/blob/master/openstack_dashboard/dashboards/admin/projects/tables.py#L140 is still being used?22:14
lchengThis is for the Project -> User assignment22:14
jcoufaltimductive1: working on that whenever I have some spare time22:15
lchengThe implement for Project -> User assignment is mostly in javascript now (horizon.project.js).  Wondering if I should just clean this up.22:15
lchengThere are also some leftover html template, url (not accessed) and view classes not used related to this functionality.22:16
gabrielhurleyhmmm... I suspect it may be orphaned, but I can't be 100% sure just at a glance22:16
david-lyletimductive1: I posted am image of an accordion style nav that we are using: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VQEiT33xj4o/UdwTp0llSPI/AAAAAAAAATs/kB7u3ZiMO44/w506-h281-o/Screenshot%2Bfrom%2B2013-07-08%2B15%25253A49%25253A36.png  but I would like to see what jcoufal comes up with22:16
lchenggabrielhurley: hanging -> leftover code22:16
jcoufaltimductive1: already have some ideas put on the paper, but I also wanted to wait for result of discussion about issues to be sure we cover as much as possible22:16
lchengOkay, I guess if the tests pass after cleanup I'll assume that cleanup is good. :-)22:17
david-lylewhat happens with the js implementation of adding/removing users if no js support?22:17
gabrielhurleylcheng: I'd say so22:17
david-lyleat the summit there was mention of primary use cases needing to work without js22:18
gabrielhurleydavid-lyle: my recollection is that it originally had a NoJS fallback, but I'm blanking on it right now22:18
jcoufaltimductive1: however, I want to get out with something soon, so we can discuss and gather as much feedback, not wasting time on wrong ways22:18
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gabrielhurleydavid-lyle: I think the experience is quite janky but it ought to work. If not it's mostly a style problem as opposed to the capabilities existing vs. not22:18
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timductive1jcoufal: ok, I was just wondering what the scope was for the nav22:19
david-lyleas long as there's a way, I'm good with it.22:19
timductive1whether it is just a better left nav or reorganizing into horizontal tabs22:19
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jcoufaltimductive1: I am trying to hit all possibilities I see22:21
david-lyleI would assume all is on the table, but someone has to be willing to do the work if it's drastic22:21
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david-lylemodifying the left hand nav is not a large effort22:22
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jcoufalI will try also just to show options, even they might not be ideal, we can discuss22:22
jcoufalI think seeing all possibilities will be helpful22:22
timductive1ok, I'm curious to see the options, but yes its tough to make drastic changes22:22
gabrielhurleythe one thing to bear in mind (as far as when we try to land such a change) is that a lot of downstream distros and companies consume horizon and skin it, meaning we need to watch out for not surprising them with big changes at the end of a release cycle...22:22
david-lylethat said, the current layout has fixed width items which obviously fit small screens poorly22:23
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gabrielhurleyI would hate to have a navigation change be the reason people don't adopt the latest dashboard for months22:23
cody-somervillemaking good use of CSS should help us avoid minimize that.22:23
gabrielhurleyyep, but any change is gonna affect those overlays/remixes22:23
david-lyleyeah, I've played a lot in that code, lots of assumptions22:24
timductive1yeah the main problem that seems hard to solve is having more than 3 dashboards with the fixed width left nav22:24
david-lyleregarding width and float behavior22:24
david-lylethe accordion works well for that which is why we adopted it22:24
jcoufalgabrielhurley: agree22:24
david-lylewe needed more than three tabs with really short non-translatable names22:25
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timductive1I like the accordion structure, maybe coupled with a good breadcrumb system would fix a lot of my nav issues22:26
jcoufaltimductive1: could you add your issues in the mailing thread?22:26
david-lyleI agree about the breadcrumbs there are too many dead ends in the UI flow22:27
timductive1jcoufal: sure thing22:27
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jcoufaltimductive1: that would be great to have more information, thanks22:28
gabrielhurleyaccordian is generally +1, though I find that project generally has to be surfaced as a top-level meta grouping. Project determines roles, and roles determine so much of what a user has access to... I'll be interesting to see what comes of it.22:28
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jcoufaltimductive1: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-July/011509.html this one it is22:29
gabrielhurleyanyhow, I'm gonna head to another meeting. Feel free to keep discussing (obviously).22:29
gabrielhurleyI'll catch y'all next week.22:29
gabrielhurleythanks for the good discussion today22:30
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:30
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 23 22:30:02 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:30
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-07-23-21.59.html22:30
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-07-23-21.59.txt22:30
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-07-23-21.59.log.html22:30
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david-lylethanks for taking this on jcoufal!22:31
timductive1yes thanks jcoufal22:32
david-lyleI'm excited to see your mock-ups22:32
jcoufaldavid-lyle: timductive1: my pleasure, I believe we will find the best solution for all22:32
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jcoufalI will try to come out with some early version asap, not finished though, but would love to get your feedback22:33
david-lylesounds great22:34
jcoufaldavid-lyle: timductive1: Defnitelly thank you guys for your interest and inputs22:35
timductive1yes, I would love to see it once you've got it22:35
timductive1sending email now22:36
jcoufaltalk to you soon guys22:38
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