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| baoli_ | We are going to discuss pci-passthrough network support at this hour. I saw Irenab & itzikb have joined. Is yhj there? | 13:03 |
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| HenryG | Hi baoli_, I am here to listen in | 13:06 |
| baoli_ | @HenryG: great | 13:06 |
| irenab | hi, shall we start? | 13:07 |
| baoli_ | @irenab: shall we wait for yhj for a minute? | 13:07 |
| irenab | sure | 13:08 |
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| baoli_ | Hi , yjiang5, are you there? | 13:13 |
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| HenryG | looks like it's just us, we can have a short meeting | 13:15 |
| baoli_ | ok, Let's get started | 13:15 |
| baoli_ | topics to cover: -- physical network binding -- nova/neutron APIs to support SRIOV -- PCI Alias | 13:15 |
| baoli_ | and -- scheduling | 13:16 |
| baoli_ | let's start with physical network binding | 13:16 |
| baoli_ | @Irena, we've discussed in the thread. Does it make sense? | 13:17 |
| irenab | I think there is a need to bind pool of PCI devices (alias) to physical network | 13:17 |
| baoli_ | I agree. | 13:18 |
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| HenryG | Managed by nova or neutron? | 13:18 |
| irenab | it can be defined as part of extra info of the alias | 13:18 |
| baoli_ | The way to do that is through PCI alias (to be enhanced) | 13:18 |
| irenab | physical network comes from neutron | 13:19 |
| baoli_ | the PCI alias is defined as a name to represent a collection of pci devices | 13:19 |
| irenab | it is used for virtual network definition | 13:19 |
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| sadasu | when we talk to pool of pci devices are we talking specifically about network devices? | 13:20 |
| baoli_ | @irenab, neutron defines a logical view of the network | 13:20 |
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| baoli_ | so when you say physical network comes from neutron, can you clarify on that statement? | 13:21 |
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| irenab | I think the way to define pool of pci defices that can be used for any virtual network on top of specific physical network is to attach the physical network to the pool | 13:22 |
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| irenab | somethink with similar meaning like libvirt network | 13:23 |
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| itzikb | @irenab: The physical network you are talking about in neutron is provider physical_network,right? | 13:24 |
| irenab | right | 13:24 |
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| baoli_ | Ok. speaking of my personnal experience, an SRIOV channel is attached to a physical network by means of port profile that specifies the VLAN | 13:26 |
| irenab | how do you know that PCI device has access to the correct network? | 13:26 |
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| baoli_ | Well, the port profile that is bound to the VF make sure it's coneected to the right netowkr | 13:27 |
| sadasu | @baoli_ port profile only defines additional features on the virtual sr-iov ports | 13:27 |
| irenab | I n case you have two Server ports that each connected to different Switch, different physical network? | 13:28 |
| sadasu | a physical port is split into virtual ports...so that mapping exists with or without openstack/neutron's knowledge | 13:28 |
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| sadasu | I think the question is does neutron *also* required to keep this state. That is, should it have a mapping between physical and virtual ports | 13:29 |
| HenryG | irenab: yes, two ports = two different provider physical networks | 13:29 |
| baoli_ | @irenab: well, not necessarily. Depending on how those two switches are connected. | 13:29 |
| sadasu | or should it not care. Am I getting your question correct irenab? | 13:29 |
| sgordon | #startmeeting pci-passthrough-network | 13:30 |
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Nov 1 13:30:02 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sgordon. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:30 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: pci-passthrough-network)" | 13:30 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'pci_passthrough_network' | 13:30 |
| sgordon | might be useful to log this :) | 13:30 |
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| irenab | alias defined by means of product and vendor id and device type for now | 13:30 |
| sgordon | #chair irenab | 13:30 |
| openstack | Current chairs: irenab sgordon | 13:30 |
| sgordon | #chair baoli_ | 13:30 |
| openstack | Current chairs: baoli_ irenab sgordon | 13:30 |
| irenab | if auto idscovery for Host pci devices is used, it will catch all VFs that maybe do not have the same physical network access | 13:31 |
| baoli_ | Yes, the current definition of pci alias is not sufficient | 13:31 |
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| irenab | so one think that should be added is physical network "hint" to PCI alias | 13:32 |
| HenryG | I am not sure if the physical network should go in the alias | 13:32 |
| irenab | thing | 13:32 |
| HenryG | This is a problem specific to network PCI devices | 13:33 |
| irenab | yes | 13:33 |
| HenryG | Other PCI devices are not interested in it | 13:33 |
| irenab | so you suggest that neutron should be responsible to resolve it? | 13:33 |
| sadasu | this info should be hidden inside port profiles | 13:34 |
| HenryG | It might have to be a configuration | 13:34 |
| irenab | I think this should be known in order to schedule the VM on correct Host | 13:34 |
| baoli_ | Let me reiterate this: a SRIOV VF joins a network when it's assigned a port profile. | 13:35 |
| itzikb | The thing is that right now nova handles the PCI devices,right? | 13:35 |
| baoli_ | the reason for nova to do this is that it has to schedule an instance based on resource requirement | 13:35 |
| HenryG | itzikb: yes, for scheduling | 13:35 |
| mwagner | are we using sr-iov and pcipassthrough interchangably here ? | 13:35 |
| baoli_ | @mwagner: for network, we use SRIOV | 13:36 |
| HenryG | mwagner: depends :) | 13:36 |
| irenab | we too | 13:36 |
| mwagner | ok, in my experience there has been a clear difference between the two | 13:37 |
| irenab | @baoli_: not sure I follow how scheduler can use port porfile | 13:37 |
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| mwagner | while this discussion is clearly focused on the network side we should also keep in mind that you can passthru other devices (ex storatge controller) | 13:38 |
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| baoli_ | @irenab, for scheduling purpose, port profile is not involved. The scheduler only needs to know that a node has the PCI device that can satisfy the requirement | 13:38 |
| mwagner | maybe its possible to pick a solution that will support the global case | 13:38 |
| rook | @mwagner agreed, Nvidia has came out with technology like SRIOV, but for vGPUs | 13:39 |
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| irenab | agree | 13:39 |
| baoli_ | @mwagner: agreed. we are trying to focus on networking. But some of the nova side work should be generic to support various features | 13:40 |
| HenryG | Let me try to summarize a little: | 13:40 |
| irenab | @baoli_: how it takes into account the availability of the physical connectivity of the Host to the required physical network? Do you assume full connectivity? | 13:40 |
| mwagner | I am just throwing out there as we discuss where to do things tomake sure we keep it in mind | 13:40 |
| irenab | @mwagner: agree | 13:41 |
| sadasu | @baoli_ & @irenab - "the requirement" in your discussion can be very specific to each pci passthrough device | 13:42 |
| HenryG | We have a bunch of network PCI devices that all look the same to nova (same alias). But we want nova to schdule a device that is connected to a particlar network, which is only on a subset the devices. | 13:42 |
| irenab | exactly | 13:43 |
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| baoli_ | @irenab: I think that I kind of understand your concern now. Basically, that's another requirement from nova's scheduling point of view | 13:43 |
| HenryG | And the question is how to we give nova this hint. | 13:43 |
| itzikb | If not alias then how? | 13:44 |
| baoli_ | Now you are saying physical network connectivity should be part of Nova's scheduling decision | 13:44 |
| yamahata | So neutron should know the network topology and the difference of PCI deivces, tell it to nova? | 13:44 |
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| sadasu | I have the same opinion as yamahata. | 13:45 |
| HenryG | yes, I think there will need to be some nova <-> neutron interaction | 13:45 |
| irenab | another option may be to define dedicatad aliases for each group | 13:45 |
| sadasu | And can be scaled to other types of pci passthrough devices | 13:45 |
| sadasu | @irenab can you give some specifics on this? | 13:46 |
| baoli_ | PCI alias can be enhanced to implicitly indicate a network segment | 13:46 |
| HenryG | adding the info in the alias would make it easy, but it feels a little hacky | 13:47 |
| irenab | thare can be alias per group of devices that should be used to connect to each physical network | 13:47 |
| baoli_ | @irenab: I think so | 13:48 |
| HenryG | it also brings network topology info into nova, which I am uneasy about | 13:48 |
| yamahata | HenryG, I agree. There are another uses case of nova <-> neutron interaction. | 13:48 |
| irenab | but it probably will be a lot of pain to manage the lists of devices per Host | 13:48 |
| baoli_ | @HenryG: not really | 13:48 |
| sadasu | and who has the alias -> devices -> physical network mapping? | 13:48 |
| sadasu | if nova...then I think we are breaking nova/neutron design | 13:49 |
| baoli_ | PCI alias is a way to represent PCI devices to Nova | 13:49 |
| baoli_ | Nova doesn't have any idea about the network topology | 13:49 |
| sgordon | #info We have a bunch of network PCI devices that all look the same to nova (same alias). But we want nova to schdule a device that is connected to a particlar network, which is only on a subset the devices. | 13:49 |
| itzikb | @sadasu: This is because it's both a pci device and a NIC. I don't see a way around it | 13:50 |
| baoli_ | @sgordon: one way to do it:nova boot —flavor m1.large —image <image-id> --nic net-id=<net>,pci-alias=<alias>,sriov=<direct|macvtap>,port-profile=<profile> | 13:51 |
| sadasu | nova should know only alias....neutron should know alias->devices->physical network mapping | 13:51 |
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| irenab | so seems there should be sone neutron agent per Host to manage SRIOV NICs, am I right? | 13:52 |
| baoli_ | the PCI alias will be used to schedule the instance | 13:52 |
| sgordon | the nova api extensions for passthrough dont expose the alias atm do they? | 13:52 |
| baoli_ | @irenab: why? | 13:52 |
| HenryG | How about something like this: Nova builds its list of PCI devices. When it discovers a device that is a NIC, it asks neutron which netowrk the NIC is connected to, and adds this info to the alias. ? | 13:52 |
| sgordon | (talking about the proposed one here, they didnt make havana) | 13:52 |
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| baoli_ | @HenryG: it only needs to know the alias and the nubmer of resouces in the alias for scheduling purpose. | 13:53 |
| irenab | @baoli_: Neutron should know each Host NICs to be able to answer nova request following proposed above | 13:53 |
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| sadasu | @baoli_ how does Nova make sure pci-alias, port-profile are correct for net-id? | 13:54 |
| baoli_ | @sadasu: a net-id is associated with a VLAN, which is also defined in the port-profile. Neutron will make sure that are the same. | 13:55 |
| sadasu | @irenab agreed. | 13:55 |
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| yamahata | baoli_, if the port is VF, Neutron (agent) will change the config of VF to be bound to the VLAN? | 13:57 |
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| irenab | @yanahata: in case of the HW VEB yes | 13:57 |
| irenab | I think that we figured out that neutron agent is required also for NIC PCI device discover | 13:58 |
| sadasu | @baoli_ agreed...just wanted to point out that nova *checking* with neutron is unavoidable | 13:58 |
| baoli_ | @yamahata: in the case of libvirt, binding of a VF to a VLAn is to assgine a port profile to the VF | 13:58 |
| yamahata | baoli_, got it. thanks | 13:59 |
| irenab | in our case we configure VF locally, so agent will be a must | 14:00 |
| HenryG | irenab: do you plan to use a driver in ML2 for managing your agent? | 14:01 |
| baoli_ | @irenab: whether or not an agent is needed is specific to the node | 14:01 |
| irenab | @HenryG: yes | 14:01 |
| sadasu | @irenab agreed! | 14:01 |
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| HenryG | irenab: excellent! | 14:01 |
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| irenab | what I am still not getting is how to impact scheduler to consider network connectivity | 14:03 |
| baoli_ | @irenab: PCI alias | 14:03 |
| irenab | currently it uses the pci alias | 14:03 |
| HenryG | irenab: it is not obvious yet what is the best or most desirable way | 14:04 |
| baoli_ | You define a PCI alias so that you can create nova instance that makes use of the resources define in that alias | 14:04 |
| irenab | @baoli_: pci alias is a pool of devices with same physicla network connectivity | 14:05 |
| irenab | ? | 14:05 |
| HenryG | yes, that is the "easy" way that I mentioned | 14:05 |
| HenryG | but I will say again, do we want nova to have this network knowledge? | 14:06 |
| irenab | the IT guy won't like it | 14:06 |
| irenab | @HenryG: I think we don't | 14:06 |
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| baoli_ | @HenryG: nova doesn't have this network knowledge, it only has the PCI alias | 14:07 |
| HenryG | but to create the aliases correctly, you need network knowledge | 14:08 |
| sadasu | I think we need to involve nova scheduler folks to get a better solution | 14:08 |
| baoli_ | When you design a cloud, you need to have that in mind | 14:08 |
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| HenryG | If someone moves cables around, they have to remember to update both neutron config and nova alias config | 14:09 |
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| irenab | @HenryG: I think networking info should be kept at neutron config | 14:10 |
| HenryG | irenab: yes, that is my preference too | 14:10 |
| irenab | @sadasu: agree | 14:10 |
| sadasu | with the number of pci-passthrough ports per physical port, putting the overloaded pci alias burden on the IT is a bit much | 14:11 |
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| HenryG | we also need to make sure we do not derail the effort to remove nova networking | 14:11 |
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| sadasu | and how neutron provides this info to the scheduler is what in up for discussion IMHO | 14:12 |
| baoli_ | @HenryG: what we have discussed so far doesn't involve nova networking | 14:12 |
| sadasu | is* | 14:12 |
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| sgordon | #agree Networking info should be kept in Neutron | 14:12 |
| sgordon | #info Need to determine how to impact scheduling | 14:12 |
| irenab | I feel we need scheduler devs to progress here | 14:13 |
| itzikb | I'm missing something - How will neutron keep the devices-> network mapping | 14:13 |
| sgordon | is there a design session scheduled for passthrough? | 14:13 |
| sgordon | yes, as it turns out | 14:13 |
| irenab | on Thursday morning | 14:13 |
| sgordon | yah | 14:13 |
| sgordon | #link http://icehousedesignsummit.sched.org/event/5d5b92daa0fff4e1d0a070a5c7397650#.UnO27PEYrTc | 14:14 |
| sadasu | @sgordon thanks for the link | 14:14 |
| irenab | but its general passthrough not specific networking | 14:14 |
| sgordon | yeah | 14:14 |
| HenryG | itzikb: such mappings are usually done by config (.ini files) | 14:14 |
| baoli_ | I ran out of time in puting one session in | 14:14 |
| sgordon | networking is heavily involved in the next step here though | 14:14 |
| sgordon | and the nova api for pci isnt in havana so needs to be finalized for icehouse | 14:15 |
| sgordon | i think this use case will need to be considered in that session | 14:15 |
| itzikb | @HenryG: which one? | 14:15 |
| sgordon | #chair HenryG | 14:16 |
| openstack | Current chairs: HenryG baoli_ irenab sgordon | 14:16 |
| irenab | Maybe worth to have unconference discussion during the summit? | 14:16 |
| sgordon | irenab, +1 - perhaps after the more general pci discussion though? | 14:16 |
| irenab | @sgordon: agree | 14:16 |
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| irenab | sorry, I have to leave the session in 3 minutes. | 14:17 |
| sgordon | yeah i cant stay much longer either | 14:17 |
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| HenryG | itzikb: in neutron.conf for bridge-physical mappings, and in vendor .ini files for physical switch port mappings | 14:18 |
| baoli_ | @sgordon:https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/pci-passthrough-base | 14:18 |
| baoli_ | Ok, let's continue the discussion during the summit | 14:19 |
| sgordon | baoli_, yeah this is what i have been working with atm + the api extension that is on github atm | 14:19 |
| itzikb | Thanks | 14:19 |
| irenab | thank you for the great discussion, see you at HK | 14:19 |
| sgordon | #endmeeting pci_passthrough_network | 14:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:20 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Nov 1 14:20:09 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:20 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/pci_passthrough_network/2013/pci_passthrough_network.2013-11-01-13.30.html | 14:20 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/pci_passthrough_network/2013/pci_passthrough_network.2013-11-01-13.30.txt | 14:20 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/pci_passthrough_network/2013/pci_passthrough_network.2013-11-01-13.30.log.html | 14:20 |
| HenryG | Looking foward to meeting you all in HK! | 14:20 |
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| sgordon | good to get a better understanding of the problem space | 14:20 |
| sgordon | thanks all :) | 14:20 |
| itzikb | Me too! See you | 14:20 |
| baoli_ | looking forward to seeing you guys | 14:20 |
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| itzikb | bye | 14:20 |
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