Thursday, 2014-03-13

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isviridov#startmeeting MagnetoDB10:17
openstackMeeting started Thu Mar 13 10:17:51 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is isviridov. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.10:17
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: MagnetoDB)"10:17
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'magnetodb'10:17
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isviridov#topic Test topic10:18
*** openstack changes topic to "Test topic (Meeting topic: MagnetoDB)"10:18
isviridov#agreed The agreement10:18
*** openstack changes topic to "gerrit on is down for maintenance (revised eta to resume is 13:00 utc)"10:18
openstackMeeting ended Thu Mar 13 10:18:47 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)10:18
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isviridov#startmeeting MagnetoDB13:01
openstackMeeting started Thu Mar 13 13:01:06 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is isviridov. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: MagnetoDB)"13:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'magnetodb'13:01
isviridovHi everybody13:01
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isviridovSo let us start13:01
SpyRayhi all13:01
isviridovTeh agenda for today
isviridov#topic General project status overview13:02
*** openstack changes topic to "General project status overview (Meeting topic: MagnetoDB)"13:02
isviridovSo, i'm happy to see all of you here.13:02
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isviridovAs you know we have released POC version and now started working on 2.0.*13:03
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isviridovThe main goals for current 2.0.1 version are:13:03
isviridov* openstack infra integration13:03
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isviridov* definition MagnetoDB API13:03
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isviridov* devstack integration13:04
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isviridovSo, current version scope
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isviridovShould we proseed with next topic?13:07
aostapenkolooks reasonable13:08
isviridov#topic MagnetoDB API Draft status13:08
*** openstack changes topic to "MagnetoDB API Draft status (Meeting topic: MagnetoDB)"13:08
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isviridovachudnovets, looks it your song13:08
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achudnovetsthere is the MagnetoDb API draft
isviridovachudnovets, good job!13:10
isviridovachudnovets, have you discussed it with smb from community?13:10
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achudnovetsnope, I'd like to hear some comments about it13:11
isviridovProbably the ML is better place for that13:11
aostapenkoisviridov: +113:12
achudnovetsI agree13:13
isviridov#action achudnovets start ML thread with API discussion13:13
isviridovachudnovets, i've seen BP about API implementation.13:13
isviridovGood job, I've added most pf them to 2.0.1 version scope13:14
isviridov#topic Third party CI status13:14
*** openstack changes topic to "Third party CI status (Meeting topic: MagnetoDB)"13:14
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isviridovSo, with MagnetoDB we need to have CI process out if openstack infra, but together with it13:15
isviridov1. running cassadnra integration test13:15
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isviridov2. run devstack integration tests13:16
achudnovetsWhy we need CI outside openstack infra?13:16
aostapenkoisviridov: Why don't we run devstack integration tests in infra?13:16
isviridovachudnovets, because of 1. and 2. )13:16
achudnovetsok, I see, thanks :)13:17
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isviridovaostapenko, we are not a part of openstack yet. In future, when we will integrate. We will run it there.13:17
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aostapenkoisviridov: I suppose we can do new gate with devstack in infra13:18
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isviridovaostapenko, not sure, that we can add our project to devstack. It can brake whole dev process.13:20
achuprinnow we have some requirements for environment13:20
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achuprinas results we need own env13:20
achuprinwhich will be integrated with Infra13:21
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achuprinwe hava 3 way for this13:21
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achuprin1. Gerrit layer13:22
achuprin2. zuul layer13:22
achuprin3. Nodepool layer13:23
isviridovDo we know what the way we go now?13:23
achuprinsome information you can find here
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achuprinnow we use Gerrit layer integration for cassandra unittests13:24
achuprinbut for devstack testing we need other way13:24
achuprinzuul or nodepool layers integrations13:25
isviridovachuprin, looks we need the wiki page about it.13:25
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achuprincan we discuss this offline?13:26
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isviridovYeap, let us go to #magnetodb for discussion13:26
aostapenkoachuprin: I think all this tests can be run by different gates in infra13:27
isviridov#action achuprin discuss with infra the best way for our CI13:27
isviridov#action achuprin create wiki page with CI description13:28
achuprinisviridow, wiki - ok13:28
isviridovnext topic?13:28
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isviridov#topic Support of other database backends except Cassandra. Support of HBase13:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Support of other database backends except Cassandra. Support of HBase (Meeting topic: MagnetoDB)"13:29
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achuprinaostapenko, yes it will be run by different gates, but for this we need specific env. (cassandra requirements for example )13:30
isviridovWe have to look at other database for MagnetoDB, not only Cassandra13:30
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ikhudoshyndo we, really?13:31
isviridovIt is common case, HBase comes together with big data processing and we have evaluate if HBase or some other DB suits13:31
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isviridovikhudoshyn, hey man13:32
ikhudoshynso by 'other database' you mean hbase, right?13:32
isviridov) at least13:32
ikhudoshynisviridov, hi there13:32
isviridovDo you have anything to share with us in that dirrection?13:32
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ominakovhow magneto can interact with HBase?13:33
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aostapenkoominakov: the same way as with cassandra13:33
isviridovominakov, the underlying databate pluggubility by design.13:34
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ikhudoshynare there any other candidates, apart from hbase?13:34
ikhudoshyn'cos with hbase i kinda got a tiny complain13:34
isviridovominakov, it is possible just to implement another DB support13:34
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isviridovikhudoshyn, riak, mongodb. What do you think?13:34
ikhudoshynominakov, thats the issue13:34
isviridovikhudoshyn, but HBase always comes with Hadoop and Big Data13:35
isviridovI think we have to start ML thread13:37
aostapenkoisviridov: +13:37
isviridovikhudoshyn, can you drive it?13:37
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isviridov#action isviridov ikhudoshyn start mail thread about evalution other databases as backend for MagnetoDB13:38
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isviridov#topic Devstack integration status13:38
*** openstack changes topic to "Devstack integration status (Meeting topic: MagnetoDB)"13:38
isviridovIt is vital thing actualy13:38
isviridovvnaboichenko, SpyRay any news?13:38
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vnaboichenkowe have done script which deploys cassandra 2.02 from tarbar with oracle jdk 1.7 and magnetodb from master13:39
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vnaboichenkowe are investigating in cassandra cluster manager13:40
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isviridovWOW! Looks as huge progress13:40
vnaboichenkonow looks good, we will modify scripts for set up nodes with this manager13:40
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isviridovI think we need some guide for work with it13:41
vnaboichenkoyes, i will made a wiki13:41
isviridov#actio vnaboichenko devstack integration guide in OpenStack wiki13:42
isviridov#action vnaboichenko devstack integration guide in OpenStack wiki13:42
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isviridov#topic Weekly meeting time slot13:42
*** openstack changes topic to "Weekly meeting time slot (Meeting topic: MagnetoDB)"13:42
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isviridovWe have to think about better time for our meeting to cover US contributors.13:43
isviridovWhat about 1700 UTC13:43
miarmak_do we have maybe a table with free time slots?13:43
isviridovOther suggestions?13:43
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aostapenko17 is good13:44
isviridovmiarmak_, good point. We have to check free slots13:44
isviridovI'll do so13:44
achudnovets1700 UTC is good for me13:44
isviridov#action isviridov find better time slot for meeting13:44
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miarmak_isviridov: yeah, and after that take several slots and vote for them13:45
isviridov#action isviridov start ML voting meeting time13:45
isviridovmiarmak_, yeap13:45
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isviridov#topic Open discussion13:45
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: MagnetoDB)"13:45
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isviridovikhudoshyn, how was your fly?13:45
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isviridovikhudoshyn, it looks like we can count on you in PST timezome.13:46
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miarmak_is it 6.47 am now?)13:47
isviridovmiarmak_, yeap. But we have seen him13:47
isviridovOk, guys. Looks like we finished13:47
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isviridovThx and see you at #magnetodb13:48
ikhudoshynoops, guys, had issues with connection13:48
miarmak_i remember 1 thing about time13:48
isviridovmiarmak_, pelase13:48
miarmak_we have time change soon in ua13:48
isviridovmiarmak_, good point. I'll take it into account13:49
*** openstack changes topic to "gerrit on is down for maintenance (revised eta to resume is 13:00 utc)"13:49
openstackMeeting ended Thu Mar 13 13:49:21 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)13:49
openstackMinutes (text):
miarmak_bye all13:49
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enikanorov_neutron lbaas meeting in 3 minutes13:57
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enikanorov_#startmeeting neutron lbaas14:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Mar 13 14:00:43 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is enikanorov_. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron lbaas)"14:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_lbaas'14:00
bloganhello everyone14:01
enikanorov_let's start with some announcements14:01
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enikanorov_#topic announcements14:01
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enikanorov_we've got new driver in our tree - netscaler from citrix14:02
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enikanorov_which is backed by their 3rd party CI14:02
enikanorov_congrats to the authors14:02
vjaythanks enikanorov!14:03
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obondarevembrane driver is close to merge too14:03
enikanorov_another driver can possibly make it to Icehouse: embrane14:03
enikanorov_did it get FFE?14:03
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enikanorov_so all that is a good indication that community is interested14:03
enikanorov_at the same time each new driver increases the cost of object model and API change that we're discussing14:04
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enikanorov_anyway... we also have radware drive the still doesn't have working and voting CI14:04
enikanorov_I saw tempest patch was merged that resolves some problems with integration testing of radware driver14:05
enikanorov_so I hope to see their CI voting soon14:05
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enikanorov_i think we'll not be glad if core team desides to remove the driver from the tree14:05
enikanorov_#action Sam to update on progress with radware CI14:06
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enikanorov_that's it on announcements14:06
enikanorov_lets get back to the object model discussion14:07
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enikanorov_the diagrams and proposals are on the wiki, I think most of you are already familiar with them14:07
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enikanorov_Sam Bercovici could not attend14:08
enikanorov_does anyone have any questions/suggestions on the object model proposals?14:08
bloganafter looking at them more carefully i believe proposal #2 is the best14:08
obondarevgiven that new drivers are merged I thiink one of the main requirements to the new model should be backward compatibility14:09
jorgemProposal 2 is backwards compatible no?14:09
enikanorov_yes, it is14:09
obondarevit is14:09
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obondarevso as #314:10
bloganwhat were the cons of proposal 2?14:10
enikanorov_however after recent discussions I realized that code on review should be improved in order to coply with recent design decisions14:10
iwamotoshouldn't we discuss at API level first?14:10
enikanorov_blogan: some folks argue the the 'loadbalancer' object is redundant14:10
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jorgemProposal 3 doesn't allow multiple vips in an intuitive manner which is a big detractor for me.14:11
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bloganenikanorov_: could you explain how it is redundant?14:11
enikanorov_iwamoto: API maps very closesy to object model, so it's kind of joined discussion14:11
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jorgemenikanorov: Doesn't it make sense though that Load Balancer as a Service have a load balancer object?14:11
enikanorov_blogan: well, some folks think that all user cares is Vips and Pools14:11
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jorgemit's in the name of the service14:12
enikanorov_jorgem: that's a weak argument :)14:12
jorgemand most people speak in terms of a loadbalancer object14:12
jorgem:) just saying14:12
enikanorov_I agree, but I also want to make sure concerns and objections are addressed14:12
s3wongI think for a user perspective, "listener" is more familiar for those that had used AWS ELB14:13
bloganfair enough, all objections should be addressed and not dismissed14:13
jorgemenikanorov: Should we talk about it proposal one by one then?14:13
enikanorov_so basically proposals #2 and #3 address the same problem of reusing same ip address by several vips14:13
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enikanorov_in #3 vips are called 'listeners'14:13
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enikanorov_so to me #2 and #3 are basically the same, except of object names14:14
enikanorov_that's why I'd prefer #2 because bw compatibility is achieved more easily14:14
enikanorov_s3wong: yes, I stole 'listener' from aws api14:15
youcefand the fact that #3 is not backward-compatible14:15
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enikanorov_youcef: it can be made bw compatible14:15
s3wonghow can #3 be backward compatible?14:15
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enikanorov_s3wong: when you create VIP, you also create first listener14:16
enikanorov_so 1 call will result in 2 objects created14:16
s3wonghmm... I see14:16
bloganin proposal #2 a user would have to create a pool, member, vip and load balancer correct?14:17
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enikanorov_loadbalancer is also created automatically (for the VIP)14:17
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enikanorov_because we want to preserve existing workflows14:17
jorgemFrom the docs: "However this approach doesn't address multiple VIPs in one configuration. For this purpose another entity 'Listener' is introduced." It seems like 2 simplifies this14:17
enikanorov_jorgem: yes, but that's mostly about resource names (from API perspective)14:18
enikanorov_from implementation perspective it's easier to add another simple object like loadbalancer than to do renaming14:18
jorgemenikanorov: Correct, but if 2 and 3 perform the same thing I'd be in favor of simplifying it14:18
enikanorov_me too14:18
jorgemenikanorov: So I agree with you that 2 is better.14:19
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jorgemTo clarify the L7VipPoolAssoc is for L7 switching right?14:20
enikanorov_jorgem: yes14:20
enikanorov_jorgem: that's the way of specifying several pools that are chosen based on L7 traffic processing14:20
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enikanorov_markmcclain: hi14:21
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jorgemenikanorov: With proposal 2 then, do multiple vips point to the same pools? For example, I want to have both and IPv4 vip and an IPv6 vip point to the same pool14:21
enikanorov_jorgem: that's a good question14:22
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jorgemI believe it can be made to do that but the UML needs to be updated14:22
enikanorov_initially main use case for multiple vips in one instance was Ip address sharing14:22
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enikanorov_so I'm not sure about Vips having different addresses14:23
enikanorov_and yes, if we want to support it - the diagram needs to be updated14:23
jorgemenikanorov: Okay, just wondering because IPv6 compatibility would be nice14:24
youcefyes, I think we should support it, it's a common use case, especially with ipv4/ipv6 addresses.14:24
enikanorov_well, from api/obj model perspective it is ipv6-compatible14:24
enikanorov_jorgem: good to know.14:25
youcefI mean having both for the same pool14:25
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enikanorov_we also decided to make pool pure logical object14:25
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enikanorov_e.g. it can be shared between balancers14:25
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enikanorov_which means that you can have ipv4 and ipv6 vips pointing to the same pool, but on different loadbalancers14:25
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youcefI thought that loadbalancer is now the root object, which means it decides the provider chosen?14:26
enikanorov_i discussed the ability of having several vips with different ip addresses and Sam was against that14:26
bloganwith that though, having to have two load balancer instances to get two vips pointed to the same pool would be confusing to a user14:26
enikanorov_youcef: yes, loadbalancer is the root object14:26
youcefif we use 2 loadbalancers, there is a change that the providers will be different.14:27
youcefI mean for the 2 addresses of the same pool.14:27
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bloganwhich i think is fine, it'd be a different flavor load balancing the same pool14:27
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vjayi think there will be practical difficulty in implementing this14:28
vjayfor ex. statistics14:28
vjayof the pool14:28
enikanorov_vjay: you're right14:28
enikanorov_we're also discussed that with Sam14:28
youcefbut what if the flavors correspond to different drivers? how could this be implemented?14:29
enikanorov_statistics should be seriously refactored14:29
jorgemvjay: stats are measured from the vip perspective that's why right?14:29
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enikanorov_youcef: that's why loadbalancer object could drive the resource to the existing configuration14:29
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youcefbut there are now 2 loadbalancers :)14:30
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vjayjorgem: today it is totally based on pool. inorder to understand the traffic sent to the pool members.14:30
enikanorov_youcef: you mean ipv4 and ipv6?14:30
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enikanorov_we need to consider allowing such vips under one balancer, but in that case it would not be different from multiple ipv4 addresses within a loadbalancer14:31
enikanorov_and in that case I  suppose it makes sense to allow that, and each driver will decide if it supports it14:31
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youcefenikanorov: I agree14:32
enikanorov_on the other hand it could also be confusing to the user if certain driver doesn't support that14:32
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enikanorov_because you don't know the driver, you only provide flavor14:32
enikanorov_(we're talking about our bright future)14:32
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youcefyes, if we add it, multiple vips per pool will need to be supported by all drivers.14:34
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enikanorov_that's I'd say could be limitation of flavor mechanism14:34
enikanorov_or a requirement...14:34
jorgemenikanorov: Is the goal for the meeting to decide on proposal or to discuss the merits of each one? (I just want to understand what the process is since I'm relatively new to this)14:35
enikanorov_i mean that flavor should contain a requirement for the  driver to support multiple vips per loadbalancer14:35
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enikanorov_jorgem: in general we all need to agree on a certain design.14:35
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enikanorov_It's also important to get the opinion of some core team mebmers who participate in code reviews14:36
jorgemenikanorov: Perhaps we can come up with what requirements we all need in order to guide our decision?14:36
jorgemenikanorov: Let me know if there is a place already for this.14:36
enikanorov_markmcclain was generally interested in that discussion and he has objections to #2, but it seems he's busy right now to explain detail of his objections.14:36
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enikanorov_jorgem: it's mailing list mostly14:37
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enikanorov_so basically we're meeting here to discuss details and form a decision, but we also need some other folks who should agree14:38
jorgemenikanorov: Gotcha, would you be opposed to have a requirements page? I think that might bring some clarity as to why we will have a certain object model.14:38
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enikanorov_sure I would not14:39
jorgemenikanorov: For example, the IPv4/IPv6 requirement.14:39
enikanorov_I think we'd be glad to see such page which will help us and any newcomers to understand the problems that we're trying to solve14:40
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youcefby the way, I don't think we should limit the use case of multiple vips per pool to the ipv4/ipv6 use case, it could be internal/external vip or any other use case.14:41
jorgemyoucef: correct. I would consider that another requirement.14:41
enikanorov_ok, no objections on this one14:42
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iwamotowhat's a "requirement page"?14:42
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enikanorov_iwamoto: i think it's some wiki page that jorgem is willing to create :)14:42
jorgemiwamoto: My idea is that we capture what functionality everyone wants.14:43
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jorgemThen, as we look at the proposals we see which ones satisfy those requirements (conceptually speaking as of right now)14:43
jorgemI'm just suggesting this because we all have different use cases and it will help communicate everyone's intentions of using Neutron LBaaS14:44
iwamotolisting required functionalities sounds great14:44
jorgemenikanorov: Could I email you offline for suggestions on how to create such a page?14:45
enikanorov_yes, i totally support this idea14:45
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s3wongjorgem: sounds good. An action item for you then :-) ?14:45
enikanorov_jorgem: well... it's wiki, if you have launchpad id, you can log in and create the page. sure you can email me, we acn also discuss the requirements14:45
jorgem#action Jorge to start a requirements wiki page14:45
enikanorov_ok, anything else to discuss?14:47
bloganenikanorov_: are there core reviewers for neutron lbaas? or is it neutron core reviewers that review the plugins as well?14:47
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enikanorov_anyone can review the code, we have obondarev who is neutron core and is lbaas key contributor14:48
youcefenikanorov: will proposal 2 need to be changed so the diagram to allow a n:m relationship between vip and pool?14:48
enikanorov_youcef: it already has m:n actually. it may not be obvious, because 1:1 is from vip to default pool, but through l7 you can have vip-> many pools14:49
youcefenikanorov: I mean the opposte,  many vips -> 1 pool14:49
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enikanorov_that's achievedby multiple vips within loadbalancer14:50
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enikanorov_each vip can have same default pool14:50
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enikanorov_of multiple pools via l7 rules14:50
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enikanorov_so it's not a direct relationship, but though loadbalancer/l7 rules instead14:51
youcefok, it wasn't obvious to me :) may be then add some text to this effect.14:51
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vjayif option 2 is introduced, can pool exist independently? pool will be always be in scope of a loadbalancer right?14:53
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enikanorov_vjay: currently the idea is to have pool as a logical object, e.g. it's not bound to the loadbalancer14:53
enikanorov_so it can exist out of scope of loadbalancer14:53
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obondarevjust like health monitor as it is now14:54
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jorgemobviously we won't be able to capture every requirement. However, we can prioritize them and work that way14:55
jorgemHow does everyone think we should scope the requirements? Overall functionality or specific to the object model discussion?14:55
youcefDoes that mean you can have loadbalancers that have been created with different flavors (and therefore potentially using different drivers) use the same pool?14:55
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enikanorov_jorgem: i think it makes sense to prioritize them14:56
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enikanorov_main requirements lay around basic functionality of multiple vips, multiple pools and ip address reuse14:56
enikanorov_youcef: yes14:57
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enikanorov_youcef: that redefines some aspects of existing workflows, that is understood14:57
enikanorov_youcef: also i'm thinking about limiting this ability at first step14:58
youcefso, is the pool reimplemented on each driver? what would be the statistics/status of the pool in this case?14:58
youcefenikanorov: yes I agree, I think we shouldn't allow this, it can be confusing.14:58
enikanorov_youcef: yes, that's the question that comes first. It gets complicated.14:58
enikanorov_we have discussed these aspects with Sam, it is solvable, but requires quite a bit of work14:59
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obondarevyoucef: are you familar with Sam's proposal? He tried to address that statistics concerns there14:59
youcefI also don't see a valid use case for wanting to do this (using different flavors for same pool).14:59
blogani think limiting it at first is the right approach and if it ever becomes something that users want then we can do it14:59
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youcefobondarev: I looked at it, but can't say I'm familiar with it :)15:00
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enikanorov_ok we need to wrap up15:02
enikanorov_thanks everyone for attending15:02
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openstackMeeting ended Thu Mar 13 15:02:11 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:02
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jorgemBefore the meeting ends, it seemed that through the ML a lot of people were interested in a mini-summit in Atlanta a few days before the summit. I understand there are differences of opinions but I wanted to here any suggestions here on who we should talk to if we really want to go through with it.15:07
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dkranzmtreinish: ???16:03
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krotscheckAnyone here for the storyboard meeting?16:04
afazekasdkranz: UTC 17:00
ruhekrotscheck: hi16:05
dkranzafazekas: Yeah, I forgot :)16:05
krotscheck#startmeeting storyboard16:05
openstackMeeting started Thu Mar 13 16:05:45 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is krotscheck. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:05
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: storyboard)"16:05
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'storyboard'16:05
krotscheck#topic mvp status16:06
*** openstack changes topic to "mvp status (Meeting topic: storyboard)"16:06
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krotscheckOk, so storyboard is up, all the projects have been loaded, and I think the only piece left is the patch Nikita put in to hide th enew project button16:06
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NikitaKonovalovI have created a change for that16:06
krotscheckNikitaKonovalov: I did see that!16:07
krotscheckNikitaKonovalov: I'll land that shortly.16:07
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krotscheckSo that wraps it for the MVP.16:07
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krotscheckNow, the downside is thta.... well, the UI is already starting to fall down.16:07
krotscheckAnd further development is still walking across an SQLite minefield.16:07
krotscheckSo let's talk about that16:07
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krotscheck#topic SQLite and Migrations16:08
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krotscheckruhe: Do you want the floor on this? It feels like you've done more investigation on what the tradeoffs are to getting rid of SQLite.16:08
ruhekrotscheck: sure16:08
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ruhe1. there is a clear problem with a combination of Alembic and SQLite16:09
ruheand we need to get rid of it16:09
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ruhe2. We already test our migrations against MySQL and Postgres. and we should continue doing that16:09
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ruheso there are two options to fix problem #116:10
ruhea. Populate DB for unit tests from SQLAlchemy metadata16:10
ruheand add a tests which will compare schema populate from metadata and schema populate from migrations16:11
ruheb. Completely ditch SQLite and run UT on MySQL and Postgres16:11
ruheoption #b has a potential issue - we will need to generate databases with random name to allow parallel testr runs16:11
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krotschecktestr is threaded?16:12
krotscheckRighto- that presents a problem.16:12
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ruheCeilometer folks have been working on the same problem for a long time and it isn't still resolved16:12
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krotscheckThe metadata approach: basically what we're doing there is have alembic construct the database state in memory before committing it, yes?16:13
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krotscheckDoes that discard insert / update statements in the migration?16:13
ruhekrotscheck: actaully not. database schema will be generated directly from SQLA models16:13
krotscheckOh, hrm.16:13
krotscheckOk, so a completely empty database.16:13
krotscheckI'm not adverse to that at all.16:14
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krotscheckDo yo usee any potential gotcha's?16:14
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ruhethe main issue we might hit - is our models will get out of sync with migration scripts. but there is a patch to oslo, which adds needed tests16:15
krotscheckThat patch compares the SQLA metadata to the database schema?16:15
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ruheit compares schemes produces from migrations and from metadata16:16
ruhe* produced16:16
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krotscheckOk, so I like that approach. NikitaKonovalov, any ojections?16:16
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krotscheckHow about you, ruhe, any preference for approach?16:17
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ruhei'd like to take a stab at this at the weekend16:18
krotscheckruhe: Congratulations,  you volunteered :)16:18
krotscheck#action ruhe Make our SQLite problems go away16:18
ruhekrotscheck: thank you very much :)16:18
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krotscheck#topic Hiring!16:18
*** openstack changes topic to "Hiring! (Meeting topic: storyboard)"16:18
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NikitaKonovalovno objections from my side16:19
krotscheckSo we've got two candidates in the interview cycle right now.16:19
krotscheck(please don't name names)16:19
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krotscheckThese are currently being backed by HP, and we're progressing steadily.16:19
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ruheme and SergeyLukjanov are going to speak with one of them tomorrow16:20
krotscheckOh, good :)16:20
ruhecandidate #2 asked to postpone to next week. i'm ok with that16:20
krotscheckTo set expectations though, once we choose someone (or both), there is at least a 2 week wait window while HP does background checks and so forth.16:20
krotscheckSo new JS talent is at least 3 weeks out, plus onboarding, plus getting familiar with the code.16:21
krotscheckruhe: Ditto here, he's working on a code sample fo rme.16:21
ruhekrotscheck: your JS talent is enough ;)16:21
krotscheckruhe: Yeah, but my bandwidth isn't.16:21
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krotscheckOk, next topic16:22
krotscheck#topic Auth and Permissions16:22
*** openstack changes topic to "Auth and Permissions (Meeting topic: storyboard)"16:22
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* krotscheck is trying to find the etherpad...16:22
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krotscheckI really don't know if that's a good approach to what ttx is asking for, but it's a first step.16:23
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krotscheckI feel that we're very rapidly going to get into a situation where people are going to ask: How can a TC do things that a regular contributor can't?16:24
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krotscheckSo if y'all could go, look at that, and argue about it with me, that would be great.16:25
NikitaKonovalovWe might have a table with actor in rows and action in columns and +/- on the crosses16:25
NikitaKonovalovthat will show who can do what more clearly16:25
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krotscheckNikitaKonovalov: I'm having trouble visualizing that - maybe start annotating the etherpad with sql table schema?16:26
krotscheckMy main concern with Auth and perms is that it tends to add a lot of SQL queries to each request.16:27
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krotscheckAnd that can have a significant performance impact, especially if we trust an ORM to manage our queries for us.16:27
NikitaKonovalovagree that may become a problem16:27
krotscheck(case and point, I'd be leery about trying this in hibernate)16:27
krotscheckAnd yet, it's going to be tricky because perms/auth/roles/whatever may be different for every single resource.16:28
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NikitaKonovalovI'll look through keystone to see how they handle roles16:28
krotscheckNikitaKonovalov: Thanks.16:28
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NikitaKonovalovbut I'm pretty show they hammer the database16:28
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krotscheck#action NikitaKonovalov Do more research on good auth/perm approaches16:29
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krotscheckNikitaKonovalov: I wonder if we can get any performance improvements by offloading things into stored procedures. At least then we take the SQL interpretation load down and lower the number of requests.16:29
krotscheckThat's probably a mordred question. ^^16:30
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krotscheckAnyway, this is an ongoing discussion, so let's move it to the main channel once the meeting is done.16:30
NikitaKonovalovmaybe a token expiration can be done with that16:30
krotscheck#topic Feature requests16:30
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krotscheckHave y'all started using storyboard? Anything that REALLY needs to be added?16:30
krotscheckPaging is what I want the most right now - that project list is ridiculous.16:31
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ruhei'd like all the garbage stories/tasks/projects to be removed16:31
NikitaKonovalovhe are not setting fields like author or a creator_id16:32
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NikitaKonovalovthough we have all required information about hte user16:32
krotscheckNikitaKonovalov: I agree. Given that we already have the user id hook, why not just add that on the POST request?16:33
krotscheckruhe: Deleting stories is already enabled. I've cleaned out all the projects.16:33
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krotscheckruhe: Tasks works on the API side, I just don't have a UI button for it yet (I think)16:34
NikitaKonovalovkrotscheck: that should be pretty easy to do16:34
ruhethat's great16:34
krotscheckruhe: I recommend you go in and clean up before we lock down permissions :)16:34
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ruhei like to clean up16:35
NikitaKonovalovwe have already locked project management to superusers16:35
NikitaKonovalovand AFAIK the script for loading them from config is not running yet16:36
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krotscheckNikitaKonovalov: Ah, good point.16:36
NikitaKonovalovso noone should be able to touch projects :)16:36
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krotscheckSince we don't have superusers :)|16:36
krotscheck...wait a sec.16:36
krotscheck.... ;)16:36
krotscheckWe can't admin our own system. Hi-Larious16:36
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krotscheckOk, so it feels like we've got three big real features for the near future. Paging (krotscheck), task cleanup (everyone), and adding author and/or creator_id to tasks (Nikita)16:38
krotscheckI hope that in the future non-storyboard contributors will use this time to yell at us about what they do don't like :)16:38
NikitaKonovalovand update puppet scripts to load superusers16:38
krotscheckNikitaKonovalov: Right! I'll make mordred do that.16:38
krotscheckThough I think he's going to be out on vacation next week16:39
NikitaKonovalovI can try to do that also16:39
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NikitaKonovalovBasically it works the same way as loading projects16:39
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krotscheckI'm trying to file this as a story, and the projects dropdown is too long to be useful.16:40
krotscheck#topic Open Discussion16:41
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NikitaKonovalovkrotscheck: may i't better to replace a dropdown with simple input with autocompletion?16:42
krotscheckNikitaKonovalov, we think alike16:42
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krotscheckAllright, i think we're done16:43
*** openstack changes topic to "gerrit on is down for maintenance (revised eta to resume is 13:00 utc)"16:43
openstackMeeting ended Thu Mar 13 16:43:51 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)16:43
openstackMinutes (text):
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mtreinish#startmeeting qa17:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Mar 13 17:00:10 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mtreinish. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: qa)"17:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'qa'17:00
mtreinishhi who's here today17:00
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julien-llphi everyone17:00
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mtreinish^^^ today's agenda17:00
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sdagueok, lets run through the high priority blueprints17:01
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mtreinish#topic Blueprints17:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints (Meeting topic: qa)"17:01
mtreinishyes, let's get started17:01
mtreinishsdague: do you want to roll through the list?17:02
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coasterzHi all ;)17:02
sdaguerossella_ put out details on the list about the bugs found17:02
sdagueI'm going to mark that good progress, and hope it gets closed soon17:03
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sdagueandreaf: where do we stand there? there is another review out, right?17:03
andreafsdague: so I split my patchsets further17:03
sdagueok, great17:03
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andreafI have 5 patchsets there now17:04
andreafplus I have two patchsets for getting the experimental keystone v3 check17:04
sdagueok, cool17:04
sdagueI think that remains good progress then17:04
sdagueI just marked v3 api tests as implemented. I think cyeoh is going to open a new blueprint for juno17:05
mtreinishyeah that's what we discussed last week17:05
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sdaguewe have heat-slow voting now, which is good.17:06
sdagueif stevebaker is around we could figure out if we should call that done, and create a new BP in juno, or move that one to juno.17:06
sdagueor anyone else that can speak for heat17:07
sdagueit looked like they were talking about a tempest day, or set of days in the heat meeting yesterday17:07
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sdagueso I'd like to make sure that we consider new heat patches high priority for review in tempest to support them in that17:07
sdague#info consider tempest patches for heat functionality high priority from review perspective17:08
mtreinishdo you want to info that?17:08
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mtreinishoops you win17:08
dkranzsdague: I think this has been the case for a while but there have not been many patches17:08
sdaguedkranz: agreed17:08
sdagueI'm hoping that changes17:08
dkranzsdague: RIght17:08
sdaguemtreinish: how do you want to handle the unit tests blueprint17:08
mtreinishso unit tests is making progress17:08
mtreinishbut we don't really have a defined end point17:09
mtreinishI think there are 4 or 5 patches in progress right now17:09
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mtreinishI think we probably should just leave the bp open until release17:09
mtreinishjust to make watching unit test reviews easier17:10
mtreinishthen at summit I want to have some discussions about project policy on unit test requirements17:10
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sdaguesounds good17:10
sdaguethat's all the high priority blueprints, anything else we want to bring forward17:11
mtreinishwell it'd be nice to get some eyes on my verify script bp17:11
mtreinishI've got a few patches in progress17:11
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mtreinishafazekas: how is the stop leaking bp progressing?17:12
afazekasmtreinish: Started the new approach, which does not records the resources at the beginning of the run17:12
afazekas currently it is failing17:13
afazekasTwo small nits related to this ,
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sdagueafazekas: cool, is there a review up yet?17:14
afazekasSo the new style is to try delete everything in the tenant before the tenent gets deleted17:14
dkranzafazekas: +117:15
afazekasThe tenent will be logged on creation to a database, or some kind of file17:15
afazekasBut the tenant deletion needs to be post process17:15
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dkranzafazekas: Why can't we delete stray resources when the tenant  is getting deleted?17:15
afazekasThe process process will also double check is the tnent really empty (for example leak on setUpClass filures)17:16
sdagueafazekas: so honestly, I'd like to fix the leaking problem by fixing the places where things leak17:16
afazekasdkranz: the setUpclass failures are blind spots17:16
sdaguenot just cleanup at the end17:16
dkranzafazekas: It would be better if you had a high-level description of the overall plan17:16
dkranzafazekas: Rather than just a set of patches17:16
dkranzafazekas: Is that possible?17:16
sdagueon that front, what do people think about taking the nova approach for juno and having a blueprint gerrit repository17:17
afazekasI will rewrite the BP, unless some would like to see the original plan implemented17:17
sdagueafazekas: or start with a mailing list thread17:17
sdaguebecause I feel like we still have some disconnect here17:18
dkranzsdague: That  is exactly what yair and I proposed for the neutron stuff . I still like it.17:18
sdagueand I'd like to get us all on the same page17:18
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sdaguedkranz: which thing that I said? :)17:18
dkranzsdague: gerrit blueprints17:18
afazekasthe setUpclasses could be enforced by a decorator, to call tearDownClass even on failuer, if is ok for everyone17:19
mtreinishsdague: yeah I think we can try that starting in juno17:19
dkranzsdague: An important issue is whether we are managing resources as GC model or malloc/free17:19
sdaguedkranz: I think it's got to be malloc / free17:19
dkranzsdague: If the former than tenant cleanup is not to catch bugs but expected17:19
dkranzsdague: I don't 100% disagree but why?17:19
sdaguebecause otherwise we can run into races where we hit high water marks inside of tests17:20
sdaguewe've actually had those races before17:20
dkranzsdague: But we already to gc at the class level which is the same as the tenant isolation level17:20
sdaguetenant isolation is not going to work for lots of real environments17:20
afazekasdkranz: With the new version the behavior on unexpected resource is configureable17:21
dkranzafazekas: I see17:21
sdagueand if we turn it into just GC, then people won't fix the issues in the tests17:21
sdaguewhich are totally fixable17:21
sdagueso I am -2 on automated cleanup at the end of tests17:21
sdaguetest classes / tenants17:21
sdaguebecause I want us to be doing this right in the code17:22
mtreinishyeah we shouldn't auto cleanup just report the issues (or fail) if there is a leak17:22
afazekassdague: Are you ok with the clean + raise excpetion settings (default)17:22
sdagueafazekas: for starting, I just want audit17:23
sdagueand once we get clean, I'm ok with failing if we have leaked resources17:23
sdaguebut I don't want tempest doing failsafe brute force cleanup on class exit17:23
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dkranzsdague: I would be more comfortable if we did that17:23
sdaguebecause we know that not all resources in openstack are actually discoverable17:23
dkranzsdague: that is unfortunate and I would call it a bug17:24
sdagueespecially a bunch of the network ones17:24
sdaguedkranz: sure17:24
afazekasOn successful run we  do not leak mach17:24
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sdagueafazekas: so build an audit report at the end of classes some how and pull that together17:25
sdaguethat will help us fix things for real17:25
dkranzsdague: Basically I think this is really important but we should decide the semantics up front17:25
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dkranzafazekas: sounds good17:25
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sdagueso mailing list thread is fine at this point17:25
mtreinishok is there anything else on blueprints?17:25
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mtreinishotherwise let's move on to the next topic17:25
afazekasJust logging is also configurable ..17:25
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mtreinish#topic Neutron testing17:26
*** openstack changes topic to "Neutron testing (Meeting topic: qa)"17:26
mtreinishmlavalle: are your around?17:26
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mtreinishany updates on neutron testing17:27
mlavalleReview of api tests have continued17:27
mlavalleI sent a message to the ML with 6 tests that were close to merge17:27
mlavalleThey all were reviewed by cores over the past 3 days, thanks you :-)17:27
mlavalle2 of them merged and the other required chhanges17:28
mlavallewe have merged 12 api tests over the past 3 weeks17:28
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mlavalleI have also identified 5 tests that are abandones17:28
mlavalleI am contacting the authors to see if they have still bandwidth17:28
mlavalleif not, will reassign tests to someone else17:29
mlavalleall in all, good progress17:29
mtreinishmlavalle: ok cool thanks17:29
mlavallethat's all I have17:29
andreafmlavalle: this is only slightly related to neutron testing, but I think it worth mentioning17:29
mlavallewill continue pushing api tests reviews17:29
* mlavalle listening17:30
andreafmlavalle: we have a run_ssh flag in tempest, which is turned off by default, so a number of API tests are not doing ssh checks. But all new tests are ignoring it.17:30
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dkranzandreaf: You mean ignoring it and doing ssh checks anyway?17:31
andreafmlavalle: did you try turning that on in neutron devstack? I wonder if we should just remove the flag at all17:31
mlavalleandreaf: no, I haven't touched that flag17:31
andreafdkranz: yes17:31
afazekasandreaf: after this , I will rebase this
andreafdkranz: it must be as one of the main gate issue is ssh failures17:31
sdagueandreaf: so I believe that was because in some environments tempest can't route to the guests17:32
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dkranzWell obviously we need to be consistent about this17:32
sdaguehonestly, I'd be ok with just removing the flag if it's getting ignored so much. How terrible are things if we try to default it true?17:33
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dkranzsdague: I'd be ok with removal too but defaulting to true does not address the issue17:34
andreafsdague: with nova networking we may need afakekas' patch to add floating IP to servers - but in a single node devstack not even that17:34
sdaguedkranz: defaulting true first tells us how terrible the gate would collapse if we did that17:34
sdagueit's more of a sniff to figure out if it's a truly terrible idea17:34
afazekassdague: the current ssh_check code expects fixed ip connection, and password injection, so it needs be able to use at least floating_ip with neutron17:34
dkranzsdague: oh, that issue. I was talking about random tests failing if you set it to false if they are not checking17:34
andreafsdague: I tried that long time ago and it wasn't going too well, but the remote client has much improved since17:35
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sdagueafazekas: it won't handle cloud-init key injection?17:35
sdagueok, so honestly, I think this is probably a bigger issue than we want to bite of at this point in the release17:35
afazekassdague: I will rebase it soon, it is able to handle17:36
sdaguebut I think we should have a summit session on this to make sure we have a solid approach17:36
dkranzWhat use is a cloud if a "user" (tempest) cannot access the created vms?17:36
afazekassdague: the key injection is working17:36
dkranzsdague: Are suggesting we fix the tests that are ignoring the flag, or just ignore this issue for now?17:36
afazekasbut the password (file injection) is not17:36
sdaguedkranz: I suggest ignoring the issue for now17:36
afazekasbut the cirros has default passwd as well17:36
dkranzsdague: works for me17:36
sdagueand once the release happens, we sort out a consistent approach for this17:37
dkranzsdague: If some one fails due to  not checking they may file a bug :)17:37
afazekassorry this one:
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sdagueyes, sure17:37
dkranzsdague: But that should have happened already it=f it was going to17:37
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sdagueyep, we can fix things as hot bugs right now, I just don't want to handle the whole problem, as we've got enough to worry about with the release17:38
andreafsdague: ok makes sense17:38
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mtreinishok, I think we can move on the next topic17:38
sdagueit would be good to get this cleaned up early in juno for sure though17:38
andreafsdague: but was shall we do for new tests?17:38
sdaguethanks andreaf for bringing it up17:38
sdagueandreaf: use the run_ssh flag17:39
sdagueas intended17:39
mtreinish#topic Heat testing17:39
*** openstack changes topic to "Heat testing (Meeting topic: qa)"17:39
mtreinishso I think we covered this one in the bp topic17:39
mtreinishsdague: unless you had something to add17:39
sdaguenope, all covered17:39
mtreinishok then let's move on17:39
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mtreinish#topic Bugs17:40
*** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: qa)"17:40
mtreinishso I saw that maurosr sent an email out the ML about the bug day17:40
mtreinishI think he was proposing we have the bug day next Wed.17:40
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mtreinishdoes anyone have any issues with that date?17:41
sdaguenope, sounds good17:41
mtreinishok cool so hopefully next week he'll have a summary of the bug day for the meeting17:41
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mtreinishlet's move on to the next topic then17:42
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mtreinishoh unless someone wants to raise attention on a bug17:42
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mtreinishandreaf: heh well I guess thats a queue for the next topic17:43
andreafmtreinsh: nothing critical, it just need a +A then I can close the bug, very tiny review I promise17:43
mtreinish#topic Critical Reviews17:43
*** openstack changes topic to "Critical Reviews (Meeting topic: qa)"17:43
andreafmtreinish: ok sorry about that17:43
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mtreinishso does anyone else have any reviews they would like to bring up?17:44
sdagueandreaf: lgtm17:44
andreafsdague: thanks17:44
sdagueandreaf: I did find an earlier patch ended up dropping all the admin tests17:44
sdagueso we lost 500 tests for a few days17:44
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sdagueso just as an fyi, be careful in checking test counts in the runs with auth related patches17:45
sdaguethis one looks right, still 2200 tests run in tempest-full17:45
sdagueit does make me think about the idea of instituting low water mark checking17:45
andreafsdague: oh, thanks for letting me know, I'll be more careful17:46
sdaguebecause we know that tempest full should run 2200 tests17:46
sdagueso if it goes below 200017:46
sdaguesomething is wrong17:46
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andreafsdague: sounds good, but you need to tune that based on your tempest.conf -> number of skips17:46
sdagueandreaf: yeh, more like for the gate17:47
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sdagueI wouldn't implement it in tempest.conf, but in something else we call in the gate17:47
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sdagueanyway, this is a good patch, thanks for doing all this disconnect work17:48
sdagueany other reviews?17:48
mtreinishok if there aren't any other reviews let's move on to the last topic on the agenda17:48
afazekasIt fixes low chance random gate issue17:49
mtreinishafazekas: ok, I'll take a look at it after the meeting17:50
mtreinishunless someone beats me to it17:50
mtreinishok let's move on17:50
mtreinish#topic Running tempest as non-admin (dkranz)17:50
*** openstack changes topic to "Running tempest as non-admin (dkranz) (Meeting topic: qa)"17:50
mtreinishdkranz: you're up17:50
sdagueafazekas: looks good17:50
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mtreinishdkranz: ???17:51
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mtreinishok well if dkranz isn't around does anyone have anything to say about this topic?17:52
andreafdkranz, mtreinish: while we wait for dkranz, I'd like to comment on this17:52
mtreinishandreaf: sure17:52
andreafmtreinish: as part of the multi-auth bp, I shall change tenant isolation to support v317:53
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andreafso it will be possible to create users and tenants within a domain17:53
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andreafwhich only requires a domain admin, rather than an overall identity admin17:53
afazekassounds good to me17:53
andreafso with that in place it will be possible to get tenant isolation with a less powerful admin17:53
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mtreinishbut you still need identity admin to create the domain17:54
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mtreinishoh nm I see what you're saying you specify a domain to run in17:54
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andreafwe can use the default domain which exists17:54
sdagueandreaf: sounds very useful17:54
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sdagueI still think we should support a fallback of "specify users you want me to use" and limit running to that many processes17:55
andreafthis is just one part of the story, there are many tests which rely on admin account for doing compute volume network stuff17:55
afazekasThe question is: is it enough for everyone who want to run tempest as non-admin ?17:55
mtreinishyeah that'll be nice to enable running in parallel without an admin17:55
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sdagueok, so in the 5 minutes we have left, I want to just float the qa-specs gerrit repository idea for official17:56
mtreinishsdague: sure17:56
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mtreinish#topic qa-specs gerrit repository17:56
*** openstack changes topic to "qa-specs gerrit repository (Meeting topic: qa)"17:56
sdaguebecause I think we've had at least 3 different topics just in this meeting which should get a design for a blueprint17:56
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sdagueand I think there is no time like the present to try this new idea17:57
dkranzI got booted out.17:57
dkranzmtreinish: We don't have a way to run tempest as non-admin and skip all admin tests, right?17:57
sdagueso my suggestion is I get the repository set up17:57
sdagueand we start doing these sorts of things there in review format17:58
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mtreinishdkranz: don't specify an admin in the config and the tests should get skipped17:58
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sdaguedkranz: that's not true, because in one of andreaf's refactorings the admin tenant was lost17:58
mtreinishif they don't it's a bug17:58
sdagueand we skipped 500 tests17:58
mtreinishsdague: yeah that's sounds fine to me17:58
dkranzmtreinish: ok, cool. I didn't know that.17:58
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sdague#info qa-specs repo to be created for blueprint design / discussion / approval17:59
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mtreinishsdague: well we're out of time...17:59
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mtreinishthanks everyone18:00
*** openstack changes topic to "gerrit on is down for maintenance (revised eta to resume is 13:00 utc)"18:00
openstackMeeting ended Thu Mar 13 18:00:05 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)18:00
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sdagueyep, let's take it to -qa for anything remaining18:00
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bdpayne_#startmeeting OpenStack Security Group18:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Mar 13 18:00:30 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is bdpayne_. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"18:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group'18:00
bdpayne_hi everyone18:00
nkinderhi all18:00
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bdpayne_#topic Roll Call18:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"18:01
bdpayne_anyone else here today?18:01
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bdpayne_ok, I'm sure that others will trickle in18:02
bdpayne_#topic Agenda18:02
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hyakuheiI'm here18:02
bdpayne_So, I'd like to say a few words about the election18:02
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bdpayne_anything else people would like to discuss18:03
hyakuheiI vote that we all abstain, leaving Bryan as the only viable leader.18:03
bknudsonBryan probably won't abstain18:03
nkinderI cna give an overall OSSN update18:03
* bdpayne_ has already voted18:04
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bdpayne_ok, so election and OSSN18:04
bdpayne_anything else?18:04
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nkinderthere's been some interesting discussion around the keystone revocation vs. cache18:05
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nkindermight be worth some discussion to decide if it's OSSN worthy18:05
bknudsonthe auth_token cache would be an interesting discussion18:05
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bdpayne_ok, sounds good18:06
bdpayne_let's get rolling18:06
malini1very interested in the keystone token stuff, do discuss18:06
bdpayne_#topic Election18:06
coasterzHi all ;)18:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Election (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"18:06
bdpayne_So I've been busy putting together everything for the election18:06
bdpayne_bottom line is that, everyone in the electorate should have received an email with details on how to vote18:06
bdpayne_if you believe you should be allowed to vote, and didn't get an email... let me know18:06
hyakuheiI received an email a few minutes ago18:07
bknudsongot the email18:07
nkinderme too18:07
bdpayne_Also, I sent out an email yesterday with a link to a google doc18:07
bdpayne_that showed who the active members where are how they received that designation18:07
malini1me too18:08
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bdpayne_what I found was interesting actually was the IRC meeting participation18:08
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bdpayne_I wrote a script that shows how many meetings everyone participated in over the past year18:08
bdpayne_in general, we have a core group of very active people18:09
bdpayne_which is fantastic18:09
bdpayne_anyway... bottom line is... GO VOTE :-)18:09
bdpayne_any questions on the election?18:09
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bknudsonthanks to those who stepped up!18:09
bdpayne_if something comes up, just email me18:09
malini1High Five to bdpayne and  hyakuhei for creating this active inclusive community18:10
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bdpayne_#topic OSSN18:10
*** openstack changes topic to "OSSN (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"18:10
bdpayne_So what's the latest on the OSSN front?18:10
nkinderWe got a few published last week, which lowered the queue18:10
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hyakuheiI'm very excitied about the gerrit stuff18:10
nkinderlast I looked, we have 3 open issues and they are all assigned.  Someone new to OSSNs stepped up to take on the Cinder one.18:11
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hyakuheithere's one embargoed one too18:11
nkinderhyakuhei: ok, is it being worked on?18:11
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hyakuheiYes, though if someone has spare cycles for an OSSN we can bring them in18:12
nkinderhyakuhei: ok.  Would you mind adding me to the issue?18:12
malini1i have some spare cycles this coming week18:12
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malini1embargo -- this that a horizon one18:13
hyakuheiI'll have to ok it with the owners but it should be ok.18:13
hyakuheimalini1: nope, something else18:13
nkinderFor gerrit/git, it looks like I just need to ask infra to create the repo under the docs area.18:13
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nkinderThat's on my list for this week, but Anne said that she's good with the plan to put it under docs.18:14
nkinderWe're also discussing how to go about getting OSSNs into the security guide18:14
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hyakuheigreat, so who do you ask - Monty?18:14
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bknudsoninto the security guide or just published on the web page.18:14
nkinderhyakuhei: I need to track down the right name...18:14
hyakuheinkinder: The idea was always to thread OSSNs into the guide18:15
bknudsonthere's an #openstack-infra channel18:15
nkinderbknudson: we're talking about how to feed them back into the guides18:15
hyakuheiindeed, originally the idea was that the guide would be based on OSSNs18:15
nkinderI think we may want to change the form of them, but get the info into the manual if it's a general "here's how you should deploy" sort of thing.18:15
bknudsondo we need a specific format? the Docbook XML or rst?18:16
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nkinderFor issues that are addressed by new features or bug fixes, they would have a limited lifetime in the manual (whatever release is affected)18:16
nkinderbknudson: I was going to ask annegentle about that when we get to it.18:16
hyakuheiSo I think at the moment 3-4 are referenced in the guide, they're just footnotes18:16
bknudsonare we going to "import" existing OSSNs?18:17
nkinderbknudson: I think we should look at them.  There are only 8, so it shouldn't be bad18:17
hyakuheiSure - to my mind it's not a big problem to do, can be a quaterly task for the editors of the guide18:17
nkinderI know the live migration one I published last week should definitely get into the guide in some form18:17
hyakuheiThread in a footnote and add the OSSN to an appendix perhaps?18:17
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nkinderhyakuhei: I think we want to go beyond that in some cases18:18
nkinderhyakuhei: for live migration, I think the chapter on compute should talk about it in detail18:18
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hyakuheiAbsolutely, I'm describing that as a minimum18:18
nkinderhyakuhei: +118:18
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hyakuheiThe token-cache issue could be another potential one that deserves some inches in the guide.18:19
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hyakuhei...depending on the fix18:19
nkinderyes, one more thing before we switch topics to that18:19
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malini1hyakuhei: time to create a blog/article for Stefano M for his weekly communique on the history and goals of OSSN/OSSA/OSSG .. this catches a broad audience, often times getting picked up and re-transmitted at companies, and include the kind of data that bdpayne unearthed recently in compiling election list18:19
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nkinderfor the git repo, I've been keeping my personal repo up to date -
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nkinderI'm planning on using this as a seed for the official repo18:20
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nkinderit has all published OSSNs and templates18:20
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hyakuheiGood idea.18:20
malini1nkinder: NICE18:20
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nkinderok, enough on OSSNs from me18:20
bdpayne_hyakuhei can you continue running the meeting... I just got a phone call that I have to take18:21
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bdpayne_#topic Keystone Threat Assessment18:22
*** openstack changes topic to "Keystone Threat Assessment (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"18:22
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bdpayne_I believe this was the other topic of discussion?18:22
nkinderno, it was the keystone auth_token cache vs. revocation18:22
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bdpayne_oh, sorry18:22
nkinderrelated though I guess18:23
bdpayne_#topic Keystone auth_token cache vs revocation18:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Keystone auth_token cache vs revocation (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)"18:23
* bdpayne_ is off the phone18:23
bdpayne_sorry about that guys18:23
nkinderSo, this issue seems to be a balance issue to me18:23
bdpayne_what's going on with the auth_cache stuff?18:23
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nkinderMuch like PKI revocation checking, the deployer needs to think about what they are willing to live with18:23
hyakuheiSo if I recall correctly, this affects both 'traditional' and pki tokens.18:24
nkinderI meant PKI in general18:24
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nkindernot as Keystone uses it18:24
bknudsonthere's separate cache configuration for PKI vs UUID18:24
bknudsonthe PKI path is to check the revoked tokens list18:24
bknudsonthe revoked tokens list is cached. the default for cache timeout was 1 second... it's recently been updated to 300 sec18:25
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bknudsonthe UUID path is to check the cache, and if it's not in the cache then validate directly to keystone18:25
bknudsonso there's a cache for the UUID tokens.18:25
nkinderthis seems like the same sort of thing as deciding how often CRLs are generated vs. using OCSP with an X.509 setup... a deployment choice18:26
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bknudsonwell, ... actually, I think both UUID and PKI tokens use the cache at first.18:26
morganfainbergnkinder, ++18:26
nkinderso the default means that revocation won't be noticed for up to 5 minutes?18:26
hyakuheiin the worst-case yes18:26
nkinder...and if you don't like it, you can make it smaller18:26
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bknudsonso the defaults for both the caches are 300 seconds (5 mins)18:27
bknudsonso if your token was validated, it's good for 5 mins18:27
Shohel02yes but there are there is no check for cached token18:27
morganfainbergnkinder, perhaps the defaults are a bad assumption18:27
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morganfainbergnkinder, but it very clearly feels like a deployment choice18:27
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bknudsonyou can delete your token (invalidate it manually), and it'll still work for 5 mins18:27
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bknudsonI guess part of the question is 5 mins a reasonable default.18:28
morganfainbergbknudson, ++18:28
nkindereveryone is going to have their own opinion on what is acceptable.  Is it 5 minutes, 30 seconds, immediate?18:28
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hyakuheiDeployment dependant. To answer it you need to have a good understanding of how, why, when and how frequently you'll want to kill a token18:28
morganfainbergbknudson, i think 5 minutes is excessively aggressive, but iirc that is what we assume is the closest in-sync we can be due to clock skew?18:28
morganfainbergerm, s/aggressive/lax18:28
hyakuheiSo, what are next steps here - one minute left on the meeting18:29
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bknudsonI linked to the bug so if you have opinions you can bring them up there.18:30
nkinderis the default stuck as is for Icehouse?  If so, we might want to mention in an OSSN18:30
bdpayne_fwiw, I think that this sounds like a good use of an OSSN18:30
nkinderdeciding if a smaller default is needed is going to be a longer debate I think18:30
bdpayne_and I would get too caught up in what the default is18:30
bdpayne_300 sec seems fine18:30
bdpayne_people will need to tune it regardless18:30
bknudsonan OSSN makes sense to me.18:30
bdpayne_at least that's my two cents18:30
bdpayne_ok, thanks everyone... nice meeting today18:31
hyakuheiIt's the tradeoffs thatneed to be documented, not the literal time18:31
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bdpayne_don't forget to vote :-)18:31
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*** openstack changes topic to "gerrit on is down for maintenance (revised eta to resume is 13:00 utc)"18:31
openstackMeeting ended Thu Mar 13 18:31:48 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)18:31
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harlowja#startmeeting openstack-state-management20:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Mar 13 20:00:36 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is harlowja. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)"20:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_state_management'20:00
iv_mhi there20:00
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harlowjadon't think much of an agenda, just people coding and reviewing, nothing to urgent to talk about i think20:01
harlowjaso maybe can just keep it short20:01
harlowjachangbl hey20:01
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harlowjafor the exception stufss20:01
harlowjamaybe thats a good small topic20:01
changbli checked nova's exceptions20:02
harlowjachangbl is the part about why throw various exceptions over other exceptions the problem?20:02
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changbltheir exceptions are groups under prefix, for example, exception InvalidInput is subclass of exception Invalid20:03
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changblmaking it easier to code write/read20:03
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harlowjasure, seems like we could do a little bit of adjustment as well if we want20:04
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changblyes, that would make it easier20:04
harlowjamaybe the following groups20:04
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harlowja1. storage20:04
harlowja2. jobs20:04
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harlowja3. InvariantViolation (for any kind of generic invariant being violated)20:05
harlowjasome of the other ones like NotFound or AlreadyExists seem ok to be seperate20:05
harlowjapossibly ConnectionFailure also20:06
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changblsounds good20:06
harlowjaCorrelatedFailure is think is just to connect a exception to another exception, WrappedFailure is similar (wrapping many failures)20:07
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harlowjaanyway changbl  do u want to try that restructuring?20:07
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harlowjahopefully this doesn't break to many peoples :-/20:07
changblharlowja, maybe you do it and i will review?20:07
changblas long as we don't change too many names:)20:08
harlowjawill try not to :)20:08
changblsounds good. let's move on20:09
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harlowja#topic 0.2 reviews20:09
*** openstack changes topic to "0.2 reviews (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)"20:09
harlowjathis isn't to much of a topic20:10
harlowjamost of the reviews are just being reviewed :-P20:10
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harlowjaso lets just keep on reviewing :)20:10
harlowja#topic cinder/glance requirements gathering20:11
*** openstack changes topic to "cinder/glance requirements gathering (Meeting topic: openstack-state-management)"20:11
harlowjaso this is going slowly afaik, but going nonetheless20:11
harlowjai also started #link
harlowjahopefully can meet up with the glance folks on IRC soon20:11
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changblharlowja, schedule a meeting with them sometime?20:12
harlowjayup, working on it :)20:12
harlowjaminimeeting WIP :)20:12
harlowjaanyways, so keep on doing that20:13
harlowja*so will keep on working on that20:13
harlowjathats about all the topics i had, anyone have any need for new use-cases20:13
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harlowjaor anything to open-discuss20:13
harlowjaif not, quick meeting :)20:13
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harlowjagoinng once20:14
harlowjahi there20:15
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tinouei have a question20:16
harlowjatinoue sure20:16
tinoueDo you have a task-management session in Atlanta?20:16
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harlowjatinoue speaker session or design session?20:16
harlowja*different types of sessions20:16
tinouedesign session!20:16
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harlowjai haven't put any up yet, but i think we should20:17
harlowjaseems like is open20:17
harlowjaso good idea tinoue lets do that20:17
harlowjai did like 3 or 4 last time, more are welcome20:17
harlowjaespecially if others want to do them ;)20:17
harlowjaso maybe we can all start thinking about good design sessions ideas20:18
harlowja+2 to that :)20:18
harlowjatinoue thx for reminding20:18
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harlowja#action harlowja changbl iv_m + others think of design session ideas20:20
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harlowjacool, anything else to discuss?20:21
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changbldo we need to propose/register design sessions?20:21
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harlowjachangbl i think its just a launchpad id20:23
harlowjawhich i think u already have20:23
harlowjai don't remember it being any other special registration20:23
changblharlowja, ok20:24
harlowjawe can also put the ideas on an etherpad before summit to that page if we want20:24
harlowjaeither works, u can revise the submissions to afterwards afaik20:26
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harlowjalets see20:29
harlowjaanything else for folks :)20:29
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harlowjagoing once20:30
harlowjagoing twice20:31
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harlowjagoing thrice20:34
harlowjaok dokie, thx for coming folks20:34
*** openstack changes topic to "gerrit on is down for maintenance (revised eta to resume is 13:00 utc)"20:34
openstackMeeting ended Thu Mar 13 20:34:30 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)20:34
openstackMinutes (text):
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russellb#startmeeting nova21:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Mar 13 21:00:16 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is russellb. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova)"21:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova'21:00
russellbhello, everyone!21:00
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russellb#topic icehouse-rc121:01
*** openstack changes topic to "icehouse-rc1 (Meeting topic: nova)"21:01
russellbWe're in a freeze, and the focus is on getting to our first release candidate21:01
russellbRC1 can be released when that list ^^^ gets down to 021:01
russellbwe should only have things on there that we feel should *block* the release21:01
russellbthat should be regressions or otherwise high/critical bugs21:01
mriedemdansmith: is marked as confirmed rather than in progress but more than half is merged21:02
russellbanything that is "nice to have" for icehouse should just be tagged with "icehouse-rc-potential"21:02
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russellbRC1 process sound good / make sense?21:02
dansmithmriedem: you're wrong21:02
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russellbyou can also find an RC burndown chart here:21:03
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russellbdansmith: so what's the status of that one21:04
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dansmiththe nova-network one?21:04
dansmithone more +A needed21:04
russellbok, so should be in progress21:04
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dansmithI need to kick the last one21:05
dansmithrussellb: it is, mriedem is just crazy21:05
russellbdansmith: approved21:05
russellbhm, arosen not around21:05
russellbhe's got a High bug not in progress yet21:06
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russellbarosen2: hey, reviewing icehouse-rc1 for nova21:06
russellbarosen2: you are assigned to which is targeted21:06
russellbarosen2: do you think that should block rc1?21:06
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arosen2russellb:  no i don't think this should be a blocker. I thought i had actually fixed this bug though it seems like it's poping up again.21:07
russellblooks like a bug that's just been carried along21:07
russellbadded to icehouse-rc-potential instead21:07
arosen2I'll look into it though though in the meantime. But no blocker imo21:07
sdaguewell, it's caused 8 gate resets today21:08
russellbso everything else is "in progress"21:08
russellbat least in theory21:08
dansmithsdague: it did?21:08
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sdague8 fails in 24hrs / 25 fails in 14 days21:08
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comstudi'd like and targetted to rc121:08
dansmithoh this one21:08
sdagueit's #4 on gate resets21:08
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comstudthey have the potential tag on them21:08
comstudcells regressions due to move to objects21:08
comstudand a fix is up for review21:09
russellbif only we had better cells gate testing huh?  :-p21:09
comstudso it'll probably land anyway, but21:09
comstudthis one requires some interesting testing21:09
russellbcomstud: if they are regressions, yes, target away21:09
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russellbshould bump to High prio21:09
comstudi can't seem to target21:10
russellbare you a member of the nova-bugs team?21:10
russellbwhen's the last time you touched a bug?  :-)21:10
mriedemcomstud: done21:10
comstudnor change the Importance21:10
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comstudA while :)21:10
mriedembefore utah :)21:10
russellbcomstud: join that (open team) and you should be able to21:10
mriedemcomstud: they are bumped and tagged21:10
* mrodden lurks21:10
russellbmriedem: thanks21:10
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comstudmriedem: thnx21:11
russellbany other RC1 impacting bugs we should discuss?21:11
mriedemi think this is rc1
mriedembut it could probably drop to rc-potential21:12
russellbmriedem: it was on rc1, and i moved it to rc-potential21:12
russellbmainly because it's not a regression, and has a known workaround21:12
mriedemyeah, just got caught up21:12
russellbk, cool21:12
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russellbtrying to be aggressive here on what stays on the list, as that's how we'll stay on top of Rc121:13
mriedemtotally understand21:13
russellbwould appreciate reviews against any of the targeted bugs21:13
russellbthat should be review priority21:13
russellband if you come across one that seems stalled, let me know21:13
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russellbso we can decide if we need to push it, or just drop it from the blocker list21:14
tjonesthere are a couple with no update in the last 6-7 days21:14
russellbtjones: know which ones off hand?21:14
russellbtjones: just needs review?  or response to feedback?21:14
tjonesreview not updated i think.  still looking21:15
tjonesit was in that pastebin i sent you earlier21:15
tjonesi'll keep looking21:15
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russellbwell, we can move on then21:16
russellb#topic open discussion21:16
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: nova)"21:16
russellbfeel free to bring up more RC impacting issues21:16
russellbor anything else at this point21:16
russellbmriedem: you had added something to the wiki i think?21:16
jogodims_ has made great progress with libvirt21:16
mriedemoh yeah, looking21:16
russellbjogo: dims_ awesome21:17
russellbhow's that going?21:17
jogoso we should hopefully be able to close out some long standing gate bugs21:17
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mriedemrussellb: let me know when ready21:17
tjonesrussellb: it looks like you have already followed up on most of the ones i pointed out21:17
russellbtjones: yay21:17
tjonesrussellb: ill check them all and let you know21:18
russellbtjones: great, thanks!21:18
russellbmriedem: sure go ahead21:18
mriedemok so a long while back this happened
mriedemthat's about virt managers in openstack, i.e. vcenter, ovirt, etc21:18
mriedempowervc is a virt manager that ibm wants to get something into openstack to talk to it,21:18
mriedemand from utah, talking with comstud and dansmith it sounds like the way to do that is via some new architecture involving cells21:19
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mriedemand then vcenter could be moved there also,21:19
mriedemanyway, we have people that want to work on putting powervc driver code into stackforge but they have no idea what this new architecture idea is, nor do i, :)21:19
mriedemso am just bringing it up to see if it's something to talk about at summit, because if it's not i don't see it happening21:20
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mriedemthat's it21:20
mriedemi've never been to a summit so i'm not sure how this all works21:20
russellbdansmith: comstud ^^^21:20
russellbproblem is .... we have a really high level idea, but nobody signed up to do it21:20
dansmithso, there is no new architecture, there have been proposals and ideas,21:20
russellbso we're stuck21:20
dansmithhowever, it seems like we all agree that exposing it as a virt driver is really really wrong21:20
comstudthat's funny21:20
russellbso now we decide, block new things until it does get done?21:21
mriedemrussellb: so i think the ibm people would work it, but they are new to the community and don't know what the ideas are21:21
russellbor let stuff in the "wrong" way?21:21
mriedemi think it's block21:21
russellbi'm worried new members would be in over their head on this21:21
russellbit's very much non-trivial21:21
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dansmithyeah, this is big time stuff21:21
russellbmy gut anyway21:21
mriedemyeah, so i guess i'd have to be a middleman, which i already have been :(21:21
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mriedembut this team is spending a lot of time trying to clean up their existing driver to put it in stackforge and i've explained they are kind of wasting their time21:22
russellbit wouldn't hurt to talk through the idea at summit, and then see what happens21:22
tjonesrussellb: looks like this is the only one (so far) that could be removed.  The review is abandoned
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mroddenmriedem: probably have to study how cells works right now21:23
russellbtjones: indeed, removed21:23
russellbso ...21:23
mriedemrussellb: comstud: dansmith: so part of the motivation is also that if powervc is the guinnea pig, and something can be worked, then vcenter could move that way also so we don't keep having this discussion, like here
russellbit'd be like cells rev221:23
dansmithmriedem: mrodden: doing it with current cells is wrong I think21:23
russellbor is it rev3?21:23
comstudi'd probably like to go into a summit thing with at least some sort of rough guess at a plan21:23
dansmithcomstud: could you be a little less specific? :P21:23
comstudinstead of "hey, we should do this and stuff"21:23
dansmithI guess there are two questions I think we need to answer:21:24
* jogo wonders how this is RC related21:24
russellbif we're blocking stuff on this, we have to communicate some more detail21:24
dansmith1. Are we going to block new complicated systems acting like a virt driver (I hope so)21:24
russellband at least give people a chance at it21:24
russellbjogo: we moved past that topic :)21:24
mriedemjogo: this is open discussion21:24
russellbre #1, yes21:24
dansmithand 2. Are we or is anyone going to work on devising a new plan for how those things fit in?21:24
russellbi hope so :)21:24
dansmith1 can be yes and 2 can be no, I think, it just means we're not going to take on those new things21:24
dansmithand if 2 is yes, then we can talk about a plan21:25
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russellbright, at least document an architecture21:25
russellband maybe someone will take it on . ..21:25
russellbi'm skeptical21:25
mengxddansmith: looks like cell is one possible answer to 2, right?21:25
mriedemthe upside to 2 though is if you do make it work for something new, you can theoretically move an existing pain point, vcenter, there21:25
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jogoso ironic is sorta similar to this whole thing21:25
comstudyes, ironic falls into this category as well21:25
dansmithmengxd: in it's current form, no21:25
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jogoand they are looking to get things in nova21:26
dansmithright, ironic, vcenter and powervc and then moving existing cells to this could be a possibility21:26
jogodevananda: ^21:26
mroddendoesnt ironic re-implement the compute api but just for baremetal?21:26
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jogoits a virt driver today21:26
* mrodden should do his homework21:26
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comstudit's a virt driver that talks to ironic API21:26
comstud(or it will be when it merges)21:26
mroddenso it is similar21:26
dansmithand nova-bm brought us the 1:n node concept, which is what vcenter does, and what I don't like21:27
comstudI think ironic can have an exception because there's a bare metal driver already21:27
comstudwhich it is replacing21:27
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dansmithan exception for now maybe, yeah, but if we end up with a new thing...21:27
* jaypipes always gets a kick out of the name nova-bm.21:27
dansmithvcenter has the same exception by that default21:27
comstudjaypipes: :)21:27
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dansmithjaypipes: it's funny because it's true21:27
comstudnova is one big bm21:27
jaypipesisn't it ironic?21:27
dansmithaaand, we lost it.21:28
mriedemright, so there are exceptions for 2 drivers right now21:28
comstudaaaand scene.21:28
mriedemif we want to move those, it sounds like this is the opporutnity21:28
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mriedemthere are people willing to do the work if they can get guidance on an agreed to architecture21:28
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dansmithwell, and if we do this right, we might be able to get this to help with our cells problem too21:28
comstudmriedem: Are these people going to write shitty code?21:28
mriedemcomstud: possibly21:29
dansmithmriedem: people just willing to code isn't going to do it21:29
comstudsorry, maybe that was too blunt21:29
dansmithmriedem: we can't just give them an architecture and expect them to do it21:29
mroddencomstud: not really21:29
mriedemdansmith: yeah i know21:29
mriedemdansmith: but you and comstud know the most about this i think21:29
jogodansmith: I agree about the exception, for ironic I don't think we should require this change. but rather require a rooadmap for it  in the future21:29
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russellbbased on history, i have a hard time seeing that this is going to actually get done21:29
dansmithI think it is totally okay for us to say that nobody has the ability and drive to do this right now21:29
dansmithjogo: not going to force them unless we have an alternative, of course21:30
dansmithjogo: and always a roadmap, for them and vcenter of course21:30
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jogodansmith:  yup yup21:30
mroddeni think that there is definitely a case for accommodating virt managers in OpenStack, and i think nova would be the place21:30
russellblong term goal with no real plan to get there21:30
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dansmithmriedem: yeah, and I'm real busy and comstud works like two hours a week, so.. :)21:30
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mriedemi know :(21:30
mriedemi blame comstud21:30
comstudrussellb: i could probably get it done, but under no timeframe commitments. it'll happen as 2 all nighters some random time21:30
dansmithmriedem: yep21:31
comstudcome on, it's like 3 hours at least.21:31
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mengxddansmith: i'd like to spend good time on this topic.21:31
comstud2 of them spent in meetings21:31
dansmithcomstud: :P21:31
russellbcomstud: heh, well would love for you to if you're able to make it a priority21:31
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mriedemi'm basically just looking for some agreement that this is something worth discussing at summit21:31
mriedembaby steps21:31
comstudrussellb: doubtful.. i'd probably be overcommitting21:31
comstudyou've seen what I've done for icehouse21:31
russellbcomstud: heh, thanks for being honest21:31
comstudie: nothing21:31
dansmithmriedem: if we do, I feel like we'd be dedicating an hour to agree to what we just did21:32
russellbcomstud: you get a patch in?21:32
mriedemcomstud: we'll wake you up when there are any eventlet patches21:32
dansmithmriedem: and time slots are really valuable at summit,21:32
comstudi did21:32
dansmithmriedem: so it needs to be well-justified I think21:32
russellbso summit21:32
comstudi have some from november21:32
comstudand 1 yesterday :)21:32
russellbwe're likely going ot have 1 day less than in the past21:32
russellbso bar will go up21:32
sdaguedansmith: well, the question is would it tend to bring in other folks that might actually pitch in21:32
comstudbar tabs21:32
dansmithsdague: yes, we think it will, then that'd be worth it.. I'm very skeptical21:32
dansmiths/we/if we/21:33
mikalrussellb: so that's two days at the summit now?21:33
sdagueI think that would be the only reason for a summit session, if we thought it would actually kick start something here21:33
sdaguemikal: 3 days21:33
russellbmikal: 3 instead of 421:33
dansmithsdague: yeah21:33
comstudsdague: agree21:33
russellbmikal: since we're doing a cross project day21:33
mriedemsdague: +!21:33
mriedembecause this is not only nova, it's also cinder and neutron21:33
mriedempowervc would be in them just like vcenter is21:33
mriedemsummit would have cross-project people around21:33
cyeohso we may think that the people who are capable of doing the cells work don't have the time to do it now. But can we find a path where we train some new people who are interested to get the skills required?21:33
russellbwe're also ignoring the fact that i think powervc is silly in the first place21:34
comstudi'm not sure cells needs to be the first thing21:34
russellbeven if we had this new thing ...21:34
mriedemrussellb: so replace with ovirt21:34
mriedemor whatever virt manager21:34
mriedemfoo manager21:34
dansmithcomstud: well, if it ends up not solving the cells thing, then that would suck21:34
cyeohcomstud: what is the first thing?21:34
russellbnobody is trying to put ovirt in openstack21:34
comstudtrue true21:34
dansmithmriedem: I'm not sure I really think there *is* a strong place or need personally21:34
comstudcells maybe has the most requirements21:34
mriedemrussellb: the idea was floated awhile back from this
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russellbmriedem: yeah, those folks disappeared after that summit session21:35
dansmithmriedem: ovirt was suggested/presented at a recent summit and very few people had any interest in such a thing, other than for migration21:35
dansmithlike, before the mic hit the floor21:35
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dansmithand the room was packed with like four people in the audience21:35
russellbwe have stuff that works, mostly21:35
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russellbcould be better, but it works21:36
russellband i think that's why it's not high on anyone's priority list21:36
mriedemthis keeps coming up with vcenter blueprints and patches too, i feel like we just keep kicking this can down the road21:36
russellband i don't think we're missing support for a system lots of people are dying to have21:36
mriedemi realize it's not high priority21:36
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mriedembut i feel like we're ignoring something that everyone knows isn't going away21:36
dansmithmriedem: well, vcenter is a real tough fit and it's only going to get worse as things like the races in the aging patch keep coming up21:36
dansmithmriedem: so I'm with you there21:36
mriedemthat's what i meant by something21:37
russellbbut who's motivated to fix it?21:37
dansmithmriedem: and I'd like it to be fixed, for sure21:37
sdagueyeh, the whole idea of putting a DLM inside the virt driver... ooof21:37
mriedemas in even during this meeting we're talking about regrets on vcenter and ironic21:37
dansmithmriedem: but there just doesn't seem to be inertia21:37
mriedemi'm trying :)21:37
mengxdi think we need to figure out a correct architecture and implemetation to solve this for the long run.21:37
mriedemoh lord i'm trying21:37
dansmithmriedem: sure, but not taking on any new ones and managing what we have is one strategy... not ideal, but we have people to do that at least21:37
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russellbdansmith: yes that's how i've been feeling21:38
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dansmithso, I guess my feeling is,21:38
russellbvcenter is the biggest most obvious one we need to support21:38
russellbso forget the rest, why do we need them?21:38
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mriedemok, i guess i'm just trying to see if people are even willing to consider talking about this at summit21:38
dansmithI'd rather manage what we have now, maybe let comstud iterate on some ideas with no timeline and if something looks promising we can adopt a plan21:38
dansmithmriedem: I don't think it's worth an hour, personally21:38
dansmithmriedem: how about the next mid-cycle meeting?21:38
russellbmriedem: if we have time sure, i'm worried the outcome is just the same old "we can see a better way, but nobody willing/able to do it"21:39
dansmiththe mid-cycle ones are much easier to plan a talk, and if it's five minutes, move on to something else21:39
dansmithharder to do that at summit21:39
russellbheh, not even an hour21:39
russellb40 minutes21:39
mriedemmid-cycle is better than nothing21:39
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dansmithrussellb: 40 minutes that always runs into 59 :)21:39
comstudlooking forward to gutting nova-compute.21:39
russellbbut yeah21:39
mriedemjuno would be a wash, but it sounds like it probably would be anyway for this idea21:39
russellbuntil there's something concrete, not sure what to talk about21:39
russellb"we should do this"  "yep"21:39
sdaguemriedem: I think if you can find someone to sign up to spear head this in advance, it would sway things21:40
mriedemsdague: that's mengxd21:40
mriedemmengxd: ^21:40
mengxdyes, i will be happy to take this task21:40
russellbwell, write up a proposal and post to the upcoming nova-specs git repo for review :-)21:40
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mriedemhe's gonna need some kind of input from comstud and dansmith though on what their existing ideas are21:41
mriedemi mean i tried following in utah on the topic and was lost21:41
dansmithmriedem: well, we can try, but between now and summit I have nary a free minute planned I think21:41
mriedemplus there were breadsticks21:41
russellbdansmith: i guess you guys could write up a summary of that topic from utah21:41
comstudthere were breadsticks21:41
comstudtasty breadsticks21:41
mriedemdansmith: i understand, i wouldn't expect this to be a top priority, would just be good to brain dump a bit21:42
mriedemand then let people pick at it21:42
sdagueI think the important thing to remember about summit sessions is they are the middle of the conversation, not the beginning21:42
beaglesman that sounds really gross21:42
dansmiththe picking and discussion is time-consuming too, you know21:42
sdagueso some real pieces need to be done first, otherwise the summit session isn't really useful21:42
dansmiththe rush here only comes from the newly proposed integrated systems, right?21:43
mriedemdansmith: yeah, i'm saying anything is appreciated21:43
russellbdansmith: right21:43
russellbdansmith: ones that i'm not sure we actually care about21:43
russellbso where's the motivation?21:43
dansmithI mean, the thing is, if we're already skeptical that we'd take anything powervc-related, then the pressure to spend time on this goes totally away21:43
dansmithright, exactly21:43
mengxd:sdague  agree, the key thing is to make progress on the right path21:43
mriedemrussellb: dansmith: i think it would also apply to zvm21:44
mriedemibm tried doing something with that in havana and it dropped out21:44
russellbthe way vcenter works today kinda sucks, but honestly, i think we have more important fish to fry21:44
dansmithmriedem: which I have no interest in taking either21:44
cyeohperhaps we can aim for something even lower - a path to help get more people who are interested in this area to get the skill/knowledge they need?21:44
mriedemi think they are looking for the same path forward21:44
russellbmriedem: yeah not sure we care about that either21:44
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dansmithmriedem: it is a force-fit at best, and the last few rounds weren't even close to reasonable, implementation-wise21:45
mroddenibm will expend the effort either way i'm sure21:45
russellbcyeoh: gain a deep understanding of how nova works, and what problems we face today with existing systems21:45
mroddenin community or out21:45
dansmithwe need to be pretty careful about taking on drivers to satisfy ticky marks21:45
russellbthe same way we got that knowledge, diving in21:45
russellbmrodden: it's not just IBM effort21:45
russellbthere's a significant -core drain when we consider something for inclusion21:45
sdagueyeh, there will be a ton of core review time pulled into something like this21:46
russellbreview, ongoing maintenance21:46
dansmithwe told hawai (sp?) no to their driver too,21:46
russellband oracle21:46
dansmithbecause we don't think there is a large enough user base to take on the responsibility21:46
dansmithand oracle21:46
russellband freebsd21:46
dansmithand that21:46
russellbfor different reasons, but yeah21:46
sdagueso I think if someone is spear heading this that's new, they also need to bring additional help to the rest of the problems we're trying to solve in nova21:46
russellbsame ol' gain deep influence and understanding of the project story21:47
dansmithhaving someone plan to jump into nova, learn enough to just implement this thing is far from realistic21:47
sdaguewhich is also a great way to understand nova21:47
dansmithright, that21:47
mriedemsure that's fair21:47
russellbspend a year+ doing other stuff so you learn this crazy beast21:47
russellband then we can talk, probably21:47
russellbcan't spoon feed it21:47
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mroddenoh, but we have tried...21:48
dansmiththe same way anyone gets a major feature into nova is spend a year building familiarity, influence, context and then push for $BIG_RADICAL_CHANGE21:48
mriedemyeah so for now the powervc stuff will just go up in stackforge and be worked like a virt driver i think, then i guess we see where things go from there21:48
mriedemthat was the plan when we removed powervm anyway21:48
russellbdansmith: yup21:48
mriedemmaybe as that team works on it more they'll get into nova and it'll be magic21:48
dansmithmriedem: yep21:49
russellbright, and i personally think 3rd party addons on stackforge are perfectly reasonable21:49
russellbhave at it21:49
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mriedemok, i'm satisfied21:49
russellbuse CI to make sure you stay current with unstable APIs21:49
mriedemyup, 3rd party CI is planned21:49
russellbit's highly visible in the community, uses the same dev tools21:49
russellbdoesn't train the core of nova21:49
mriedemyup, gerrit, etc21:49
russellbreally a good setup21:49
mriedemok, thanks for all the time on this21:49
russellb10 minutes left, anything else?21:50
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* mrodden wonders what the restrictions on putting things in stackforge is...21:50
mroddenseems to be pretty loose21:50
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dansmithI think so,21:51
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dansmithbut this is definitely in the realm of reasonable things21:51
jogorussellb: yeah one last thing: it would be nice if we start trying to get rid of stacktraces for expected failures21:51
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mroddenyeah "related OpenStack projects" or something is in the description21:51
jogodefinitly not a high priority but a good thing for icehouse21:52
mikalJuno you mean?21:52
dansmithjogo: you wanna say something about partial-ncpu?21:52
russellbJuno sure21:52
russellbicehouse focus needs to be the RC blocker list :)21:52
jogoso if people have cylces to squash staktraces21:52
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jogodansmith: sure21:52
cyeohjogo: should we have a holding blueprint for those sorts of fixes? I do them in a sort of an adhoc individual bug basis21:53
dansmithbasically, jogo  is awesome, EOM21:53
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jogoas many of you have noticed we have had this test grenade*partial-ncpu that as been failing for a long time21:53
jogothe test upgrades everything but nova-comptue to make sure we support the rolling upgrade process.21:53
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jogothe final patches for that job are in flight and we hope to turn it on early next week21:53
russellb+1 :)21:54
russellbthanks guys!21:54
russellbthat's huge21:54
sdagueyeh, nice job jogo21:54
cyeohrussellb: ah, thanks!21:54
jogoif the gate didn't get backed up we would have this in already21:54
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jogoso icehouse should be the first release where we can say21:54
comstudjogo: nice!21:55
jogoyou can run havana and icehouse nova-computes side by side21:55
dansmithyes, I'm very much looking forward to that21:55
russellbdansmith: you should do a blog post that describes the upgrade process we support now21:55
jogowhich is pretty mind boggling  sweet21:55
jogorussellb: ++ to dan writting something21:55
dansmithrussellb: was planning on it, thanks for spoiling!21:55
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russellbso i think work toward this started in folsom21:55
mikalQuick, everyone write one before dansmith21:55
russellb2 years21:55
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jogoso at the summit hopefully we can start thinking about what the next step is21:56
jogofor gating upgrade support21:56
jogoperhaps the DB data migrations in the background21:56
dansmithwe have other things nova needs to do to make this even better, but more gating would be great too21:56
dansmithyes, that for sure21:56
mikalI'd like to see multinode gating in Juno as well as an aside21:56
dansmithme too21:56
russellbmikal: would be nice, yes21:56
dansmitha lot.21:56
jogomikal: and I would like a ferrari21:56
mikaljogo: don't be so negative21:57
sdagueyeh, we have a loose idea on how to do multinode allocations21:57
dansmithsdague: make it happen man21:57
russellbi'd like what we test now to be reliable too :)21:57
sdaguebut it will need a couple of folks21:57
comstudferrari on wishlist isn't negative21:57
jogosdague: oh exciting, also tirpleo is doing it the hard way too21:57
dansmithsdague: honestly, I have no idea what you do all day21:57
sdagueand a bunch more quota21:57
mikalsdague: I can lend you at least one person for that21:57
sdaguemikal: awesome21:58
dansmithhuman trafficking now.. awesome21:58
sdaguethat should be a good summit session actually21:58
jogosdague: human trafficking?21:58
russellbheh, inappropriate, guys.21:58
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mroddenwell this degraded quickly....21:59
russellbanything else?21:59
russellb1 minute21:59
dansmithmy fault21:59
comstudfor shame21:59
russellbquick, end on something positive21:59
mroddengo team21:59
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russellbnova rocks, love working with you all22:00
mikalYou have nice hair22:00
russellbthanks for your time everyone :)22:00
*** openstack changes topic to "gerrit on is down for maintenance (revised eta to resume is 13:00 utc)"22:00
openstackMeeting ended Thu Mar 13 22:00:21 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)22:00
openstackMinutes (text):
comstudyour hair really compliments your eyes22:00
russellbmikal: you win the creepy comment award22:00
mikalAnd stops the top of your head from being so shiney22:00
mikalrussellb: yay!22:00
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dansmithdevananda: all very future stuff, nothing that impacts you and ironic any time soon22:18
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