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| enikanorov_ | neutron lbaas meeting in 3 minutes | 13:58 |
|---|---|---|
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| enikanorov_ | hi | 14:01 |
| mestery | o/ | 14:01 |
| sbalukoff | Howdy, eh! | 14:01 |
| jorgem | hello | 14:01 |
| obondarev | 0/ | 14:01 |
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| sballe | morning | 14:01 |
| enikanorov_ | #startmeeting neutron lbaas | 14:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 24 14:01:38 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is enikanorov_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron lbaas)" | 14:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_lbaas' | 14:01 |
| rm_work | hey :) | 14:01 |
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| sballe | just a heads up that I will not be here next week since I am goign on vacation. | 14:02 |
| blogan | hello | 14:02 |
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| german_ | hi | 14:02 |
| enikanorov_ | the agenda for today is to discuss the steps we need to take in order to make a progress | 14:02 |
| mestery | sballe: Enjoy the time off! | 14:02 |
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| enikanorov_ | sballe: good to know | 14:02 |
| rm_work | sballe: have a good one :P | 14:02 |
| berlin | hi | 14:02 |
| sballe | thanks Going to Paris :-) | 14:02 |
| enikanorov_ | so far we had several competing API/object model proposals | 14:02 |
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| jorgem | enikanorov: Can we also figure out how we are going to organize at the summit sometime in the near future? Perhaps overML? | 14:03 |
| mestery | Just FYI: It's looking like LBaaS will end up with 2 40 minute sessions. | 14:03 |
| mestery | I'd hope we can organize as a team what we want to accomplish in those sessions. | 14:03 |
| jorgem | awesome | 14:03 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: right, let's discuss the summit at the end of the meeting | 14:03 |
| enikanorov_ | mestery: cool! | 14:04 |
| enikanorov_ | so, let's get back on API discussion as I'd like to end it with some action items | 14:04 |
| enikanorov_ | currently we have two competing approaches, one is existing 'granular' API | 14:04 |
| enikanorov_ | another is 'single-call' API | 14:05 |
| vivek-ebay | why can't they both co-exist ? | 14:05 |
| sbalukoff | Well, technically the one I proposed is both. | 14:05 |
| enikanorov_ | on 'granular API' which is an evolution of existing API I'v filed a blueprint to neutron-specs | 14:05 |
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| enikanorov_ | vivek-ebay: hold on :) | 14:05 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: "the single call" also allows granularity | 14:05 |
| enikanorov_ | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/89903/ | 14:05 |
| rm_work | i think both are both | 14:05 |
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| sbalukoff | rm_work: True. | 14:06 |
| mestery | So for the single call API, it just makes use of the more granular APIs underneath? Is that the case? | 14:06 |
| enikanorov_ | yes, so the API/obj model proposal in the link above is the API that we'll be focusing on | 14:06 |
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| enikanorov_ | the question would be how to better converge with single-call approach | 14:06 |
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| rm_work | mestery: yes and no? there is some thought that it should actually speak directly with the driver to do a single call, but I am not 100% sure we need to go that deep | 14:07 |
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| jorgem | mestery: Our proposal allows for multiple API calls if wanted. However, provisioning can occur with a single call as well. | 14:07 |
| enikanorov_ | btw, by saying 'we' i mean samuelbercovici, me, sbalukoff | 14:07 |
| jorgem | mestery: The choice is left up to the user | 14:07 |
| mestery | Thanks for the clarification folks! | 14:07 |
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| jorgem | enikanorov: And by "our"/"we" I mean the Rackspace LBaaS team. Good to point out | 14:07 |
| enikanorov_ | so for the rest of the subteam, who would like to see single-call approach i suggest to come up with the blueprint | 14:08 |
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| enikanorov_ | that actually explains the approach based on the object model proposed in ^^^ | 14:08 |
| enikanorov_ | refering to the wiki with obj model description, we decided to go with 'vip-centric' approach, where the root object is VIP | 14:09 |
| jorgem | To give an update, blogan sent out an email with some docs. What we are now doing is showing how the API proposal actually works with the use cases lined out in https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ewl95yxAMq2fO0Z6Dz6fL-w2FScERQXQR1-mXuSINis/edit# | 14:09 |
| enikanorov_ | and it plays loadbalancer role | 14:09 |
| jorgem | using both a single call and multiple calls | 14:09 |
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| blogan | enikanorov: are you saying you've already decided on going with the vip centric approach? | 14:09 |
| mestery | jorgem: That's on my list of reading material today in fact. :) | 14:10 |
| sbalukoff | This is news to me. | 14:10 |
| sballe | HP's current implementation of LBaaS uses the Atlas API so "we" like Rackspace's proposal and have decided to back that up instead of doing yet another proposal | 14:10 |
| german_ | +1 | 14:10 |
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| enikanorov_ | blogan: that was a consensus solution with those who originally would like to see granular api | 14:10 |
| rm_work | err wait, was there a vote already that I missed? :/ | 14:10 |
| enikanorov_ | sballe: that's fine, we need to come up with a plan on hw we can converge | 14:11 |
| blogan | enikanorov: so what was the point of us doing a proposal? | 14:11 |
| TrevorV | sbalukoff: what is news to you? What jorgem was doing or what enikanorov_ said about vip-centric? | 14:11 |
| sballe | I missed it too | 14:11 |
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| jorgem | A work-in-progress of how the use cases fit with our API is located here | 14:11 |
| jorgem | #link https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_x8_4x6DRLad1NZMjgyVFhqakU&usp=sharing | 14:11 |
| enikanorov_ | there's no vote, we need to account for everyone's need | 14:11 |
| jorgem | Again, this is a WIP. I'm planning on making some diagrams for people that are visual learners | 14:11 |
| sbalukoff | TrevorV It feels like a decision has been made. I thought we were still in the "let's talk about pros and cons" stage. | 14:11 |
| sballe | enikanorov, I understand. I guess if we had to vote I know what proposal I would vote for. That's all I am saying | 14:11 |
| enikanorov_ | one of the important needs is backward compatibility and support for existing customers | 14:12 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: i also thought hat | 14:12 |
| rm_work | *that | 14:12 |
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| * rm_work though sometimes also thinks about hats | 14:12 | |
| blogan | enikanorov: i thought we already decided that backwards compatibility is not needed anymore and starting an API from scratch was what we were going to do going forward | 14:12 |
| enikanorov_ | sballe: yes, but i'm against choosing the only one. we can have both | 14:12 |
| sballe | blogan, +1 | 14:12 |
| TrevorV | enikanorov_: you're saying there is no reason to entertain object models that aren't vip-centric? | 14:12 |
| enikanorov_ | one option has been there since the beginning | 14:12 |
| sballe | enikanorov, Ok but let's amke sure we don't only the vip centric one. | 14:13 |
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| jorgem | enikanorov: Mark McClain had suggested a new approach to the API. Perhaps allowing to run both side by side for a while is a meet in the middle compromise? | 14:13 |
| mestery | jorgem: There's some overhead there, but that is one way to deprecate the older API. | 14:14 |
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| enikanorov_ | sballe: on the object model side - it's pretty much fixed. on API side - there are options. so I actually would like to see how single-call approach fits in along with the proposed API/obj model | 14:14 |
| sballe | jorgem, I like thta idea | 14:14 |
| mestery | jorgem: We would have to support the old API for at least one more cycle. | 14:14 |
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| rm_work | yeah, jorgem +1 | 14:14 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: side by side is what i'm suggesting as well. but we can't have two different object models | 14:14 |
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| enikanorov_ | granular API is to stay. | 14:15 |
| sbalukoff | That's true. But maybe it makes sense to have a different object model if there's a good reason for it. | 14:15 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: K, I'm just trying to figure out how to get everyone's needs in. | 14:15 |
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| sbalukoff | jorgem: Have y'all created an object model diagram that works with your proposed API? | 14:16 |
| blogan | if a new API is going to be made, trying to jam it into the shape of the current object model is the wrong way to go | 14:16 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: We are working on it. There is a WIP in the link I sent | 14:16 |
| sballe | sbalukoff, I agree and I thougth we were revising the object model as well | 14:16 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: I think the task would be just to come up with a 'single-call' API for the resources that are proposed in the blueprint i've filed | 14:16 |
| german_ | snd my underdtsnding was the API would drive the object model | 14:16 |
| sballe | german_, +1 | 14:16 |
| enikanorov_ | it is not very different from the API that you have | 14:16 |
| blogan | german_: that is usually the case | 14:16 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: Could you link the bp? | 14:17 |
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| enikanorov_ | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/89903/ | 14:17 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: thanks | 14:17 |
| enikanorov_ | folks, we're not doing it from scratch | 14:17 |
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| enikanorov_ | obj model evolves, we're fixing the problems with it and with the API. it's fine to have a single call addition | 14:18 |
| enikanorov_ | but it's not fine to rewrite everything | 14:18 |
| mestery | Do folks have serious concerns with the object model as proposed? I need to look at enikanorov_'s BP yet myself. Just curious. | 14:18 |
| blogan | the current object model was derived from the current API. the current API is not liked by many, why would we try to do a new API and jam that into the shape of the current object model? | 14:19 |
| TrevorV | blogan: +1 | 14:19 |
| german_ | +1 | 14:19 |
| sbalukoff | Heh! To be honest, I'm trying to see where in the bp the object model diagram or other description is. (I've not seen this bp before today.) | 14:19 |
| samuelbercovici | the proposed model is in essence splitting the v1.0 VIP to VIP-->listeners | 14:19 |
| TrevorV | enikanorov_: who decided the lack of a new Object Model? | 14:19 |
| TrevorV | enikanorov_: why is there no replacing it? | 14:19 |
| rm_work | I had some concerns, but I need to see if enikanorov_ is proposing any fixes for the specific things I had problems with, or if the objectmodel is essentially unchanged | 14:19 |
| enikanorov_ | sbalukoff: i can't put pictures in the text format. it refers obj model discussion | 14:20 |
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| mestery | enikanorov_: asciiflow.com or such. :) | 14:20 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: we are working in prallel to have an graphivsl object model | 14:20 |
| enikanorov_ | sbalukoff: and yes, it was put out there just yesterday | 14:20 |
| samuelbercovici | we will add it to the wiki | 14:20 |
| blogan | mestery: i have concerns if we're keeping the same object model and we have to work around it | 14:20 |
| enikanorov_ | blogan: we're not | 14:20 |
| sbalukoff | blogan: +1 | 14:20 |
| mestery | blogan: Understood. | 14:21 |
| enikanorov_ | we're not keepng existing object model | 14:21 |
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| blogan | enikanorov: but you've already decided on an object model | 14:21 |
| ptoohill | ? | 14:21 |
| enikanorov_ | obejct model is extended to account for every case we have planned | 14:21 |
| sbalukoff | It seems to me an API overhaul and object model overhaul go hand-in-hand. The question is: Are the use cases satisfied? | 14:21 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: yes | 14:21 |
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| ptoohill | look the link jorgem provided | 14:21 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: Correct which is what I'm trying to show with the documents we are preparing | 14:22 |
| TrevorV | sbalukoff: in the object model we've been working on the use-cases are a priority to satisfy. | 14:22 |
| * mestery admits he needs to read the use case documents and enikanorov_'s BP to see how the gaps were closed. | 14:22 | |
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| rm_work | no use arguing about it right now, we need some time to go and actually review enikanorov_'s proposed object model in depth and verify that it works for us… but we shouldn't consider this "closed" | 14:22 |
| sballe | rm_work, Agreed | 14:22 |
| mestery | rm_work: +1 | 14:22 |
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| sbalukoff | Sweet! Well... I've certainly not had time yet to add the use cases I was able to think of this last week in creating the API proposal that I made. | 14:22 |
| enikanorov_ | the proposed object model was there for months: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Neutron/LBaaS/LoadbalancerInstance/Discussion | 14:22 |
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| enikanorov_ | that's a VIP-centric approach | 14:22 |
| sbalukoff | Sorry, I didn't know that would become a priority. | 14:22 |
| blogan | yeah all I am saying is that decided in the object model shouldn't be changed drastically without everyone agreeing causes concern | 14:23 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: Can you do a similar exercise that we are doing and actually document workflows on how your proposal fits with the use cases we have identified thus far? | 14:23 |
| rm_work | enikanorov_: that proposed object model was one of many, including the one we were going to propose, we weren't aware that it wasn't up for debate | 14:23 |
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| sbalukoff | rm_work: +1 | 14:23 |
| german_ | let's pick an API first and then revisitit the object model | 14:23 |
| enikanorov_ | rm_work: we've discussed these proposals for several meetings in line | 14:23 |
| blogan | and now that everyone has been caught off guard on this and thought it was up for debate, why is not now up for debate? | 14:24 |
| enikanorov_ | and vip-centric approach was one of two primary | 14:24 |
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| jorgem | If everyone documents their proposals in a similar fashion I think we can then start to talk about the merits of them in a more structured fashion. | 14:24 |
| rm_work | enikanorov_: yes, and the discussion has been centered around picking a good API design, and then building an obj model from it | 14:24 |
| enikanorov_ | along with 'loadbalancer' which is quite similar | 14:24 |
| sbalukoff | jorgem: +1 | 14:24 |
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| sballe | rm_work, +1 | 14:24 |
| german_ | jorgem, rm_work +1 | 14:25 |
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| mestery | The new process for Neutron BPs is to submit things into the gerrit neutron-specs repository. | 14:25 |
| mestery | Nothing is set in stone until it's approved, so we can all comment on the object model in gerrit. | 14:25 |
| mestery | It may be best to drive initial comments there in fact. | 14:25 |
| rm_work | actually, could I ask why you have the authority to *make* this decision? I don't mean to be rude, but as a newcomer to this sort of system, I thought there was a PTL (now mestery) and… ?? | 14:25 |
| samuelbercovici | mestery +1 | 14:25 |
| rm_work | mestery: +1 | 14:25 |
| blogan | mestery: thanks for the information, I did not know this | 14:25 |
| mestery | If people feel it's off base for their concerns, then perhaps we need to have a broader discussion. | 14:25 |
| ptoohill | +1 rm_work i had the same question | 14:26 |
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| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Blueprints#Neutron | 14:26 |
| enikanorov_ | good question on authority | 14:26 |
| mestery | rm_work: It's ideal to drive consensus on gerrit, ML, and IRC. Hopefully we can do this going forward. | 14:26 |
| enikanorov_ | i'm accouting for opinions of the folks who already actually committed fopr the project | 14:26 |
| rm_work | enikanorov_: and tallying a vote in your head? | 14:27 |
| mestery | I love the passion from all the LBaaS participants! You folks have generated so many documents I'm buried catching up. :) | 14:27 |
| enikanorov_ | and also we try to account for everyone else's needs | 14:27 |
| TrevorV | enikanorov_: are you talking about the original API or this new API we've been discussing creating? | 14:27 |
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| samuelbercovici | enikanorov_: +1 | 14:27 |
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| enikanorov_ | rm_work: my personal opinion that 'democracy' isn't working well in a group of 20 people and several competing proposals | 14:28 |
| mestery | I also want to point out I am very happy that all the operators/providers are active in this sub-team. This is a good thing! | 14:28 |
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| enikanorov_ | the API change was discussed long before 1.5 months ago | 14:28 |
| rm_work | enikanorov_: well, we haven't ever had a "vote" so I wouldn't discount it yet <_< | 14:28 |
| enikanorov_ | so there are both implementations and decisions made by many | 14:28 |
| sbalukoff | enikanorov_: Discussed but not decided upon | 14:28 |
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| enikanorov_ | sbalukoff: because there was not an agreement, until recently | 14:29 |
| mestery | Folks: Gerrit is where we can vote now. You all have +1/-1 authority there. :) | 14:29 |
| blogan | mestery: we're excited about being a part of this and hope that we can improve the current product | 14:29 |
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| german_ | same here | 14:29 |
| mestery | I appreciate enikanorov_ pushing out a spec review in the new process. I think we should vote there, and iterate and improve things in gerrit. | 14:29 |
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| mestery | Thoughts? | 14:29 |
| german_ | let's work through the other documents first | 14:29 |
| enikanorov_ | yeah, basically the new process has been made specifically for that | 14:30 |
| sbalukoff | enikanorov_: True, but should they be excluded because they just got involved recently? I know we have to move forward, but I also don't like excluding late-comers with valuable things to add. | 14:30 |
| sballe | mestery, just like blogan we are existing about making this a better service as well | 14:30 |
| mestery | german_: You mean use cases? | 14:30 |
| ptoohill | +1 sbalukoff | 14:30 |
| enikanorov_ | sbalukoff: i'm not trying to exclude nobody! | 14:30 |
| sbalukoff | For example, jorgem's idea to create a google spreadsheet listing actual usage of load balancing services and features was brilliant. | 14:30 |
| rm_work | that's a good point. we can have a vote on gerrit, if we would like. | 14:30 |
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| enikanorov_ | that's the last thing i'd do | 14:30 |
| sbalukoff | I think we got a lot of valuable new information from that. | 14:30 |
| blogan | mestery: a lot of us operators are new and may not have votes, but we're very committed to this project and if we do not like the BP then because we have a lack of votes we don't have much power | 14:30 |
| enikanorov_ | once again, we have two quite different competing approches | 14:31 |
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| enikanorov_ | i'd like to see them developing side by side | 14:31 |
| enikanorov_ | not deciding between them | 14:31 |
| sballe | blogan, +1 same with us | 14:31 |
| samuelbercovici | enikanorov_, +1 | 14:31 |
| enikanorov_ | the new approach has it's constraints - we can't rewrite everything from scratch, that needs to be understood | 14:31 |
| blogan | enikanorov: why not? | 14:31 |
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| german_ | +1 | 14:31 |
| sballe | enikanorov, Why not? If we don;t like it | 14:32 |
| TrevorV | enikanorov_: exactly, what stops us from rewriting lbaas 2.0? | 14:32 |
| sballe | blogan, you beat me to it ;-) | 14:32 |
| enikanorov_ | well.. saying with your words | 14:32 |
| enikanorov_ | because we don't like to rewrite it | 14:32 |
| sbalukoff | enikanorov_: If we don't meet people's needs without rewriting everything from scratch, then they're going to do that themselves anyway. | 14:32 |
| jorgem | At the end of the day, if we get all requirements in everyone should be happy right? | 14:32 |
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| mestery | jorgem: +1000 | 14:32 |
| sbalukoff | Which is fine, if they're willing to put forth the work. | 14:32 |
| samuelbercovici | blogan: there is alraedy a large amount of work in there which is not just the API | 14:32 |
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| rm_work | enikanorov_: correction, *you* don't like to rewrite it :P | 14:32 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: yep | 14:32 |
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| rm_work | we're happy to :) | 14:32 |
| sbalukoff | jorgem: Yep! | 14:33 |
| sballe | enikanorov, yeah but we cannot duck-tape stuff. that will never give us the rigth product | 14:33 |
| blogan | jorgem: yes i agree but its concerning that decisions are being made because they were made prior to all this new interest in the product | 14:33 |
| german_ | and if the current code doersn't meet requirements it has to chnage | 14:33 |
| enikanorov_ | i'd not call evolution a duct-taping | 14:33 |
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| sballe | enikanorov, yeah but if the foundation isn't right the evolution won;t be | 14:34 |
| german_ | +1 | 14:34 |
| sbalukoff | sballe: +1 | 14:34 |
| rm_work | sballe: +1 | 14:34 |
| jorgem | sballe: You have a good point. A lot of new requirements have come in which is why we are trying to start from scratch. enikanorov, the project as it is currently does not even address a lot of the operator requirements | 14:34 |
| enikanorov_ | may be it make sense to talk after we see some committed patches from you so you taste yourself what it takes to actually contribute :) | 14:34 |
| blogan | evolving from something that had a lot of problems is not the right approach | 14:34 |
| mestery | I think we're all in agreement we want to make things better in LBaaS. | 14:34 |
| enikanorov_ | before suggesting to rewrite everything :) | 14:34 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: which I guess is why we have been proposing things from scratch | 14:34 |
| enikanorov_ | sballe: we're fixing foundation | 14:34 |
| enikanorov_ | sballe: that's the purpose of the BP | 14:35 |
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| mestery | How about if we all post comments on enikanorov_'s BP in gerrit. | 14:35 |
| jorgem | blogan: Didn't you just code up an example? | 14:35 |
| mestery | It's even possible for people to pull it down and push a new rev with changes as well, enikanorov_, would you be ok with that? | 14:35 |
| enikanorov_ | 'lots of problems' is just saying | 14:35 |
| TrevorV | mestery: Everyone is speaking in a sense to produce a positive outcome here, however enikanorov has just now stated people without commits have no opinion or value here. | 14:36 |
| sballe | enikanorov, I totally agree with you that I haven't contributed "patches" so far. I do plan to become very active and do so. I just want to contribute to the right foundation and not duck tape the old one. | 14:36 |
| enikanorov_ | mestery: as long as it goes along the main idea | 14:36 |
| sbalukoff | enikanorov_: I'm concerned that a dictatorial approach to this problem is going to kill people's enthusiasm for improving LBaaS. If concerns aren't addressed, people will go back to what they've been doing until a couple months ago: Working on their disparate projects in a vacuum. | 14:36 |
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| mestery | I think enikanorov_ didn't mean it quite as it came out, and certainly we value everyone's opinion here, patch or no patch. There are many ways to measure contributions, patches being one. | 14:36 |
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| sballe | sbalukoff, +2 | 14:36 |
| blogan | sbalukoff: perhaps that is what the intention is | 14:37 |
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| enikanorov_ | sbalukoff: yes, that's a good point. but i'm not a dicator for sure. i just want to make a progress at least with one approach. and i want to help people make progress with another approach | 14:37 |
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| aburaschi | +1 to reuse the good parts of the current API | 14:37 |
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| samuelbercovici | I have written most of the use cases and about 90% could be solved with existing API + SSL +L7 which are in very advanced state. the modification comes to address the rest. | 14:38 |
| jorgem | aburaschi: I am down for reusing if it makes sense. | 14:38 |
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| ptoohill | have we identified what the good parts are versus the bad? | 14:38 |
| sbalukoff | blogan: I hope not. Despite our disagreements, I think we can all do better working together still. | 14:38 |
| enikanorov_ | ptoohill: yes | 14:38 |
| sballe | jorgem, +2 | 14:38 |
| aburaschi | sure :) | 14:38 |
| enikanorov_ | ptoohill: the bad pats are those which prevent us to allow advanced use cases | 14:38 |
| sbalukoff | jorgem: +1. | 14:38 |
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| german_ | jorgem +1 | 14:38 |
| sbalukoff | Ok, so I keep hearing this come back to use cases. Maybe we should spend some time *really* fleshing out the use cases and move forward from there? | 14:39 |
| samuelbercovici | I have also reviewed the proposed single call api and belive that it can be implemented with the proposal | 14:39 |
| sbalukoff | If we do that, how do we go about determining which use cases we'll support and which we won't? | 14:39 |
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| german_ | vote in gerrit? | 14:39 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: +1. And actually showing workflows on how each proposal satisfies those use cases | 14:39 |
| enikanorov_ | sbalukoff: i think the single-call approach can fit well with the proposed API/obj model | 14:39 |
| mestery | german_: +1! | 14:39 |
| aburaschi | +1! | 14:40 |
| enikanorov_ | sbalukoff: and that's why i said about the agreement | 14:40 |
| mestery | If someone files a use cases document in neutron-specs, that may be a really good start! | 14:40 |
| sballe | I would like to suggest we look at what is Neutron Foundation e.g. Plumbing and what should be in the Advanced services. We want the integation to be clean so that Neutron can change its implementation which affecting LBaaS which is a consumer of Neutron internals. Does tha make sense? | 14:40 |
| samuelbercovici | both the granular api and the single call should use the same object model whcih addresses the use cases | 14:40 |
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| sballe | s/whihc/without | 14:40 |
| enikanorov_ | samuelbercovici: that's for sure | 14:40 |
| german_ | +1 | 14:40 |
| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: +1 | 14:40 |
| jorgem | We have one here that someone started ==> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ewl95yxAMq2fO0Z6Dz6fL-w2FScERQXQR1-mXuSINis/edit# | 14:41 |
| vivek-ebay | +1 | 14:41 |
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| aburaschi | sballe: +1 | 14:41 |
| rm_work | sballe, samuelbercovici +1 | 14:41 |
| mestery | Not to derail, but we only have 19 minutes left. It would be good to have some actionable items come out of this meeting. It may take us 10-15 minutes to get those. :) | 14:41 |
| mestery | I'd like to see everyone comment on enikanorov_'s proposal in neutorn-specs. | 14:42 |
| mestery | I'd also like to see use cases added to that or a separate spec with use cases filed. | 14:42 |
| german_ | let's agree on use cases first | 14:42 |
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| mestery | It makes it easier to comment in one place. | 14:42 |
| enikanorov_ | #action enikanorov to extend BP with more detailed object model description | 14:42 |
| samuelbercovici | so the proposal is based on 1. existing use cses 2. the ones we tried to do for icehouse want to complete forn juno 3. new uses cases that were the reason the discussion have started | 14:42 |
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| german_ | it feels like we need to agree on use cases first | 14:42 |
| mestery | I'm finding it hard to figure out which documents to read and comment on :) | 14:42 |
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| enikanorov_ | german_: what to agree on, actually? if there's a use case, we need to support in, unless its totally don't fit into anything | 14:43 |
| mestery | german_: Absolutely! Someone can take a first crack and we can suggest more in gerrit. | 14:43 |
| aburaschi | I agree with mestery | 14:43 |
| sbalukoff | german_: +1 | 14:43 |
| mestery | german_: But the gerrit review can be a starting point. | 14:43 |
| enikanorov_ | mestery: me too | 14:43 |
| vivek-ebay | mestery: +1 | 14:43 |
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| blogan | i will comment once I look it over, if it does satisfy our needs then I'll +1 it, however it seems like if a lot of the new people's opinions wont be heard because they more than likely dont have votes | 14:43 |
| mestery | I am more than happy to help someone out who wants to drive that. | 14:43 |
| enikanorov_ | blogan: it's not about choice, it's about accounting for everyone's concerns | 14:44 |
| rm_work | if you HAVE a gerrit account, you have a vote in gerrit, right? there's no requirements above that | 14:44 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: No necessarily, the product will have natural constraints and satisfying the .00001% use case may not make sense. We need to identify major and minor use cases in order to make a good decision. | 14:44 |
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| enikanorov_ | blogan: that what we had in mind proposing the BP | 14:44 |
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| enikanorov_ | jorgem: that's also true | 14:45 |
| mestery | rm_work: It's tied to your launchpad account, so you need one of those. | 14:45 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: but you know there are cases that affect API.obj model | 14:45 |
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| jorgem | enikanorov: Also, operator use cases have been largely ignored | 14:45 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: others just affect a set of constants may be | 14:45 |
| rm_work | mestery: ah, well right. just saying, you don't need to have contributed a patch to neutron to vote | 14:45 |
| mestery | rm_work: Correct! Anyone with a LP account can +1/-1. | 14:45 |
| samuelbercovici | rm_work: correct | 14:45 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: Correct, I think we are in agreement | 14:45 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: operator API is another big story, but probably less complex and requiring less discussions | 14:45 |
| blogan | enikanorov: i agree everyone's concerns should be accounted for, but I'm still worried that just because there has been a surge in interest lately in this product and a lot of us are new, our opinions will not be accounted for | 14:45 |
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| sballe | rm_work, You can vote +1 but you cannot approve +2. Only core members can +2 | 14:46 |
| rm_work | blogan: we just need to do an actual vote. so far we've just been in discussion mode, but it looks like the time for that has ended | 14:46 |
| enikanorov_ | blogan: we're trying to account for them | 14:46 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: Hmm, operating at a large scale like we do here at Rackspace comes with all sorts of new issues though. | 14:46 |
| rm_work | sballe: right, but we won't be "unheard" :) | 14:46 |
| mestery | blogan: We'll make sure we let everyone have a say for sure! | 14:46 |
| sballe | rm_work, Agreed :) | 14:46 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: I'd like to share those and address them. In the end it will really help everyone out I believe. | 14:46 |
| mestery | jorgem: +1 | 14:47 |
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| enikanorov_ | jorgem: on the operator side there are a bit of unresolved issues project-wise | 14:47 |
| blogan | those are going to be the most difficult to solve | 14:47 |
| samuelbercovici | jorgem: please do it on https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ewl95yxAMq2fO0Z6Dz6fL-w2FScERQXQR1-mXuSINis/edit?usp=sharing so at least for use cases we will have one place to look | 14:47 |
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| enikanorov_ | but we can sort them out in parallel to tenant API | 14:47 |
| samuelbercovici | the document is world wide edited | 14:47 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: But for now I agree on focusing on the user requirements makes sense. I don't want to broaden the discussion right now. | 14:47 |
| enikanorov_ | yeah | 14:48 |
| aburaschi | Is it ok to use jorgem proposed link to unify documents and use cases? | 14:48 |
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| samuelbercovici | aburaschi: please do it on https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ewl95yxAMq2fO0Z6Dz6fL-w2FScERQXQR1-mXuSINis/edit?usp=sharing so at least for use cases we will have one place to look | 14:48 |
| mestery | I would really like us to move to gerrit for all of these things as fast as we can. | 14:48 |
| blogan | i thought the uses cases will be pushed to neutron-specs | 14:48 |
| jorgem | aburaschi: By all means please! | 14:48 |
| enikanorov_ | so, going back to use cases: I'd suggest we will discuss only those, which affect object model and API | 14:48 |
| mestery | I'm fine with consolidating in gdoc for now, but moving to gerrit should be a priority quickly after that. | 14:48 |
| sballe | jorgem, We have the same large operator agreements as you do and I agree taht we cannot dolve them al lin once. The focus on the APi makes a lot of sense to me as a first priority | 14:48 |
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| blogan | mestery: that should be an action itemt hat comes out of this meeting | 14:49 |
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| aburaschi | samuelbercovici, jorgem: ok, thanks! great. | 14:49 |
| enikanorov_ | if it's TCP vs HTTP propotoc - that would not make much sense to discuss it, because implementaion will be mostly unaffected by decision | 14:49 |
| sbalukoff | Will the +1'ing we do on use cases be for individual use cases? Will that work with gerrit? | 14:49 |
| blogan | mestery: that will make it a lot better | 14:49 |
| sbalukoff | (We're potentially look at dozens of different use cases.) | 14:49 |
| mestery | #action The team to consolidate use cases here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ewl95yxAMq2fO0Z6Dz6fL-w2FScERQXQR1-mXuSINis/edit?usp=sharing | 14:49 |
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| mestery | #action The team to move the use cases to the neutron-specs repository before next week's LBaaS meeting. | 14:49 |
| TrevorV | enikanorov_: When reviewing the use-cases, many of them are not just differences in protocol... | 14:50 |
| sballe | TrevorV, +1 | 14:50 |
| sbalukoff | It's also possible that some use cases will be mutually exclusive. | 14:50 |
| enikanorov_ | TrevorV: yes, there are different types of cases. L7 switching for example introduces whle bunch of requirements for API and obj model | 14:50 |
| enikanorov_ | *whole | 14:50 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: I hope we don't run into that :( | 14:50 |
| enikanorov_ | and that's the kind of cases it makes sense to discuss | 14:51 |
| sbalukoff | I can think of one off the top of my head. :) | 14:51 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: shhot :-) | 14:51 |
| samuelbercovici | shoot | 14:51 |
| sballe | sbalukoff, let's hear it ;) | 14:51 |
| rm_work | I have not seen anything like that yet, fortunately… what is the one you are thinking of? I guess you can explain externally | 14:51 |
| rm_work | might be better handled after this | 14:51 |
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| sbalukoff | "User needs to ensure that the password encrypting SSL key is not stored anywhere on disk and therefore needs to be prompted for a passphrase whenever the key is used." "Operator needs to be able to automate service stops and starts" | 14:52 |
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| enikanorov_ | ok, that's the use cases that out of our current scope, I'd say | 14:53 |
| german_ | who decides scope? | 14:53 |
| enikanorov_ | questions are important, but not now. | 14:53 |
| enikanorov_ | german_: our topic | 14:53 |
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| enikanorov_ | which is tenant API and object model | 14:53 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: Correct. Prompting for passphrase is not conducive to an API I would think. | 14:54 |
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| sballe | sbalukoff, This sounds to me like it would involve integration with Barbican so to me it is an advanced features of the lB. it should still be in scope for LBaaS IMHO | 14:54 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: lets take it off line as although I understand this, I did not encountered it yet | 14:54 |
| sbalukoff | jorgem: Yeah, see that part of the SSL stuff in the wiki has been disturbing to me this whole time. ;0 | 14:54 |
| enikanorov_ | sballe: it is in scope, but just let's do one thing at a time | 14:54 |
| samuelbercovici | sballe: correct | 14:54 |
| sballe | enikanorov, I agree | 14:55 |
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| german_ | sballe +1 | 14:55 |
| aburaschi | enikanorok_: +1 | 14:55 |
| enikanorov_ | ok, we have few minutes left, lets talk about summit design tracks | 14:55 |
| * mestery notes we're 5 minutes from this meeting being over. | 14:55 | |
| sballe | enikanorov, I am just saying that we will have basic use cases and and advanced use cases and we can agree to tackle them at different times | 14:55 |
| sbalukoff | In any case, this is just one possible case of conflict. And yes, we need a way to discuss how compromises are made in this case. If this can be done with gerrit, let's do it. I guess we'll see how well discussions work there. | 14:55 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: this was done to support directly provisioning the certificates without any store such as barbican | 14:55 |
| aburaschi | enikanorov_ | 14:55 |
| mestery | Any other actionable items we want for the team or individuals this week? | 14:55 |
| aburaschi | +1 | 14:55 |
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| enikanorov_ | samuelbercovici and me have several topics to cover on those tracks | 14:56 |
| jorgem | Show workflows on how use cases fit in proposals | 14:56 |
| rm_work | sbalukoff: i assume you would comment on the specific use-case you had a problem with, -1 the whole thing, and a patchset would be proposed | 14:56 |
| blogan | im unclear as to what the API proposing teams are supposed to do? get their API proposals working with the current object model? | 14:56 |
| enikanorov_ | if you feel something needs to be added, please send out to ML | 14:56 |
| enikanorov_ | and we'll think on how to merge your proposals | 14:57 |
| sballe | blogan, I thouht the object-model was up for discussion too. | 14:57 |
| mestery | I would strongly encourage feedback on gerrit as well. | 14:57 |
| rm_work | sballe: it is if we vote in gerrit that it is :) | 14:57 |
| sbalukoff | blogan: Action items so far include stuff around consolidating use cases and getting them into gerrit. | 14:57 |
| mestery | Consolidating feedback there is actually quite nice and allows for fast iteration in addition. | 14:57 |
| blogan | sballe: it is in gerrit, but thats why its unclear, the decision on that is the lynchpin for anything going forward | 14:58 |
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| mestery | The object model in gerrit is fair game for comments by any takers. :) | 14:58 |
| enikanorov_ | mestery: got it | 14:58 |
| sbalukoff | We're almost out of time. Shall we do summit-related discussion on mailing list? | 14:58 |
| enikanorov_ | we'll amend the bp | 14:58 |
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| enikanorov_ | sbalukoff: i suggest so | 14:58 |
| sballe | blogan, agreed that is why I wanted to make sure we were still discussing hte object model. Making the APi work with the old object model doesn't make sense if it will change too | 14:58 |
| german_ | +1 | 14:59 |
| blogan | mestery: i like having all of this in gerrit, i think it will streamline workflows | 14:59 |
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| mestery | blogan: +1 | 14:59 |
| sballe | blogan, +1 | 14:59 |
| rm_work | and actual voting will be transparent | 14:59 |
| * mestery nods in agreement. | 14:59 | |
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| sbalukoff | Heh! I've got just to figure out gerrit, then. XD | 14:59 |
| rm_work | whelp, good meeting everyone :) | 15:00 |
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| enikanorov_ | sballe: old object model is refined as well per BP, do don't worry! | 15:00 |
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| mestery | Thanks folks! | 15:00 |
| aburaschi | Thank you all. Bye! | 15:00 |
| enikanorov_ | ok, thanks every one for the meeting | 15:00 |
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| enikanorov_ | you made my fingers burn | 15:00 |
| enikanorov_ | :) | 15:00 |
| aburaschi | :) | 15:00 |
| enikanorov_ | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| sbalukoff | Thanks! | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 24 15:00:46 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-04-24-14.01.html | 15:00 |
| blogan | in a good way? | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-04-24-14.01.txt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-04-24-14.01.log.html | 15:00 |
| eglynn | #startmeeting ceilometer | 15:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 24 15:01:00 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is eglynn. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ceilometer' | 15:01 |
| gordc | o/ | 15:01 |
| DinaBelova | o/ | 15:01 |
| ildikov | o/ | 15:01 |
| llu-laptop | o/ | 15:01 |
| fabio | Hello! | 15:01 |
| ityaptin | o/ | 15:01 |
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| nealph | o/ | 15:01 |
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| nsaje | o/ | 15:01 |
| sileht | o/ | 15:01 |
| jd__ | o/ | 15:02 |
| eglynn | welcome all! ... the new timeslot seems to suit more peeps at a 1st glance | 15:02 |
| ildikov | eglynn: +1 :) | 15:02 |
| _nadya_ | o/ | 15:02 |
| eglynn | #topic summit scheduling | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "summit scheduling (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:02 | |
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| dhellmann | o/ | 15:02 |
| eglynn | so the ceilometer track is gonna have 10 slots this time round | 15:02 |
| eglynn | (one less than either HK or Portland) | 15:03 |
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| eglynn | all day Wed plus morning slots on the Thurs | 15:03 |
| prad | o/ | 15:03 |
| eglynn | (clashing with Heat sessions unfortunately, but c'est la vie ...) | 15:03 |
| nealph | I count 18 proposals at this point... | 15:03 |
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| eglynn | nealph: yeap, we're over-subscribed to the tune of circa 2:1 | 15:04 |
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| * nealph smells a consolidation coming | 15:04 | |
| eglynn | ... which is *good* as it shows interest in the project | 15:04 |
| eglynn | nealph: :) | 15:04 |
| dhellmann | nealph: those decisions are why the PTLs get paid the big bucks ;-) | 15:04 |
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| nealph | riiiiight. :) | 15:04 |
| ildikov | we had several shared slots in HK too, as I remember | 15:04 |
| ildikov | dhellmann: LOL :) | 15:04 |
| eglynn | dhellmann: I only accept payment in the form of the finest craft beer ;) | 15:05 |
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| eglynn | yeah so the downside is the high contention for the available slots | 15:05 |
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| eglynn | the ceilo core team has been working on a "collaborative scheduling" exercise | 15:05 |
| eglynn | I'll translate the output of that into something vaguely coherent on sched.org by EoW | 15:06 |
| eglynn | ideally all these discussion would be done on gerrit in the open | 15:06 |
| eglynn | maybe we'll get to that for Paris ... | 15:06 |
| eglynn | also new for this summit ... there'll be a dedicated space for overflow sessions from each project track | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | eglynn: the source for the current proposal system is in git somewhere, so we could possibly add features | 15:07 |
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| eglynn | dhellmann: cool, let's think about far enough in advance of the K* summit | 15:07 |
| * dhellmann nods | 15:07 | |
| eglynn | see https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Summit under "Program pods" for a short blurb on the pod idea | 15:08 |
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| eglynn | ... inevitably the contention will result in us punting some of the session proposals to the pod | 15:08 |
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| eglynn | ... we've also identified a bunch of candidate sessions for merging | 15:09 |
| nealph | eglynn:looking at the pod description...seems like some conversations would fit there well and others not so much | 15:10 |
| nealph | i.e. collaboration within ceilometer team yes, cross-team no | 15:10 |
| eglynn | nealph: yeap, that is true | 15:10 |
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| nealph | okay...guessing the core team has that in mind. :) | 15:10 |
| eglynn | nealph: cross-team also more likely to suffer from scheduling conflicts | 15:10 |
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| eglynn | nealph: ... yeah IIRC none of the punts are obviously cross-team proposals, so I think we're good on that point | 15:12 |
| * nealph sighs | 15:12 | |
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| ildikov | eglynn: I think so too | 15:12 |
| eglynn | nealph: sigh == "scheduling is hard" ? | 15:12 |
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| nealph | cool...appreciate the work core team is doing. excited to see the schedule. sighing because we always seem to conflict with heat. :)_ | 15:13 |
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| nealph | (and was hoping to talk about tripleo) :) | 15:13 |
| eglynn | nealph: yeah I wasn't filled with joy about that either conflict either | 15:13 |
| eglynn | nealph: ... in previous summits heat and ceilo were kept apart because we had some pressing cross-project issues to discuss | 15:14 |
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| eglynn | (i.e. autoscaling/alarming) | 15:14 |
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| nealph | perhaps I'm remembering wrong then...regardless, will be good sessions I'm sure. | 15:15 |
| eglynn | nealph: ... but yeah we've conflicted before also, I guess only so many ways to slice and dice the 4 days | 15:15 |
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| eglynn | BTW any cores who haven't fully filled in their prefs on the proposals (and want to get their say in), pls do so by EoD today | 15:16 |
| eglynn | move on folks? | 15:17 |
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| DinaBelova | +1 | 15:17 |
| eglynn | #topic update on f20-based gating | 15:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "update on f20-based gating (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:17 | |
| eglynn | we discussed this last week | 15:17 |
| eglynn | BTW https://review.openstack.org/86842 hasn't landed yet | 15:17 |
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| eglynn | I suspect because the reviewer pulling the trigger on the +1 becomes unoffiical "nursemaid" for the new job | 15:18 |
| ildikov | eglynn: at least it seems close to | 15:18 |
| DinaBelova | so many +'s :) | 15:18 |
| _nadya_ | HP doesn't have image as i understood | 15:19 |
| DinaBelova | only rackspace | 15:19 |
| DinaBelova | possibly that's the reason | 15:19 |
| _nadya_ | yep | 15:19 |
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| eglynn | _nadya_: yeah, there was push-back from the infra guys on that redundancy issue | 15:19 |
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| eglynn | _nadya_: at the infra meeting, when you brought it up ... pushback away from f20, towards trusty, right? | 15:20 |
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| _nadya_ | I guess the only thing we may do is to wait | 15:20 |
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| DinaBelova | possibly after summit we'll have ubuntu14/f20 - both will be cool for mongo | 15:20 |
| * eglynn not entirely understanding the infra team's logic TBH | 15:21 | |
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| eglynn | not on the image redundancy across HP & RAX clouds | 15:21 |
| eglynn | ... more on the point that the TC decides distro policy for project, infra just implement it | 15:21 |
| eglynn | TC policy is ... | 15:21 |
| _nadya_ | eglynn: jobs may run on hp-cloud or rackspace. it's not determined as I understand (maybe wrong) | 15:21 |
| eglynn | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-01-08-20.02.html | 15:22 |
| DinaBelova | _nadya_, yes, that's true | 15:22 |
| eglynn | _nadya_: jobs need to be runnable on *both* clouds, or? | 15:22 |
| DinaBelova | that's not determined | 15:22 |
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| _nadya_ | eglynn: yep | 15:22 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn - if there is no image on HP -> jobs going to it will fail | 15:23 |
| DinaBelova | and ok for rackspace | 15:23 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: yep, agreed | 15:23 |
| eglynn | but on the TC policy point, pasting here for reference ... | 15:23 |
| eglynn | "OpenStack will target its development efforts to latest Ubuntu/Fedora, but will not introduce any changes that would make it impossible to run on the latest Ubuntu LTS or latest RHEL." | 15:23 |
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| eglynn | infra interpretation is ... | 15:24 |
| eglynn | "basic functionality really ought to be done in the context of one of the long-term distros" | 15:24 |
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| eglynn | sounds like a tension between target-to-latest and gate-on-long-term-distros | 15:25 |
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| eglynn | dhellmann: ... were you around on the TC when that distro policy ^^^ was agreed? | 15:25 |
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| eglynn | ... k, I'll take that discussion on the distro policy off-line | 15:27 |
| eglynn | ... moving on | 15:27 |
| dhellmann | eglynn: no, I think that predates me | 15:27 |
| DinaBelova | :) | 15:27 |
| dhellmann | we might have inherited that from the ppb | 15:27 |
| eglynn | dhellmann: cool, I'll see if I can clarify with the infra folks at their next meeting | 15:28 |
| dhellmann | eglynn: good idea | 15:28 |
| * eglynn doesn't want to be caught in the mongo-less gate situation again, so having alternative gate distros with latest version is goodness IMO | 15:29 | |
| eglynn | #topic launchpad housekeeping | 15:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "launchpad housekeeping (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:29 | |
| eglynn | DinaBelova has identified a bunch of bugs & BPs in LP that need attention | 15:29 |
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| eglynn | (in terms of status relfecting reality) | 15:29 |
| DinaBelova | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ceilometer-launchpad-cleaning | 15:29 |
| DinaBelova | well, yes | 15:29 |
| ildikov | maybe we could have some periodic rounds on LP | 15:30 |
| DinaBelova | while surfing the launchpad it turned out that there are some things that should be fixed I guess | 15:30 |
| eglynn | yeah if anyone wants to pitch in and help with the bureaucracy ... we could divide and conquer | 15:30 |
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| DinaBelova | ildikov, well, there are triage-days in some of hte OS projects | 15:30 |
| eglynn | maybe use DinaBelova's etherpad as a mutex? | 15:30 |
| ildikov | DinaBelova: sounds good | 15:30 |
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| ildikov | DinaBelova: I thought somethings similar | 15:31 |
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| eglynn | i.e. if you're gonna attack a section, mark it on the etherpad so that you effort isn't duplicated? | 15:31 |
| DinaBelova | well, so they are running 1-2 days a month if there is no much load | 15:31 |
| DinaBelova | triage-days I mean | 15:31 |
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| eglynn | yeah, I'd be on for regular triage days in general | 15:32 |
| ildikov | eglynn, DinaBelova: or having a round robin schedule for cores and whoever wants to join for checking LP periodically | 15:32 |
| ildikov | eglynn: it was an issue earlier too | 15:32 |
| ildikov | eglynn: and I think it will be a continuous issue TBH | 15:32 |
| DinaBelova | ildikov, eglynn - it's up for you)) | 15:32 |
| DinaBelova | the solution I mean | 15:32 |
| DinaBelova | :) | 15:32 |
| DinaBelova | and other core team members, sure) | 15:33 |
| ildikov | so I'm definitely on for triage-days or anything similar | 15:33 |
| ildikov | DinaBelova: thanks for the etherpad BTW | 15:33 |
| eglynn | my preference is to avoid too much heavy-weigth scheduling of the core team's time | 15:33 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, please mark this as info - decision about triage days | 15:33 |
| DinaBelova | ildikov, np | 15:33 |
| ildikov | DinaBelova: in long term it will be not effective, but it will be good for now for a heads up for sure | 15:33 |
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| DinaBelova | ildikov, I guess yes | 15:34 |
| eglynn | ... as everyone has chaotic demands on their schedules, hard to make round-robin scheduling stick | 15:34 |
| ildikov | eglynn: sure, that's true also | 15:34 |
| * jd__ used to triage NEW once a week at least :( | 15:34 | |
| DinaBelova | for now mess is huge :( | 15:34 |
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| ildikov | eglynn: it is a painful process anyway I think, no one likes administration... | 15:34 |
| DinaBelova | jd__, well, I guess it'll be great - as now there is a traffic jam really)) | 15:35 |
| eglynn | jd__: right, I'll follow your lead and go with a once-a-week trawl | 15:35 |
| gordc | DinaBelova: i'll take a quick look through the list. thanks for building it. | 15:35 |
| DinaBelova | gordc, np | 15:35 |
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| eglynn | ... and if anyone wants to also pitch in on a best-effort basis, that would be welcome also | 15:35 |
| DinaBelova | gordc, the main problem here is that there is also huge list of completely new bigs/bps | 15:36 |
| DinaBelova | and I did not mention them here | 15:36 |
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| jd__ | you can't really clean BP i think because you can't even delete it, they just rot | 15:36 |
| jd__ | s/it/them/ | 15:36 |
| DinaBelova | well, at least we may set priority for the almost merged things | 15:37 |
| llu-laptop | does launchpad has any advanced feature to help this kind of work? | 15:37 |
| DinaBelova | as there are lots of them here too | 15:37 |
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| DinaBelova | llu-laptop, don't think so | 15:37 |
| llu-laptop | :( | 15:37 |
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| eglynn | what's the thought on moving to gerrit for blueprint review? | 15:38 |
| eglynn | ... as was recently discussed for nova on the ML? | 15:38 |
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| ildikov | eglynn: like nova-specs? | 15:38 |
| dhellmann | +1 | 15:38 |
| eglynn | ... not a solution for existing BP cruft, but might prevent the accretion in the future | 15:39 |
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| ildikov | eglynn: +1 from me too | 15:39 |
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| dhellmann | iiuc, those nova specs all have a blueprint, too, and the reviews are only used to track changes to the implementation plan but not the status of the blueprint's implementation or schedule | 15:39 |
| eglynn | #action eglynn look into the mechanics of reviewing new BPs in gerrit | 15:39 |
| llu-laptop | +1, this | 15:40 |
| DinaBelova | ildikov, eglynn but please notice that that will also make load on the core reviewers even much | 15:40 |
| ildikov | on LP the outdate ones can be set to an invalid state or something like this | 15:40 |
| DinaBelova | ... as it's now | 15:40 |
| ildikov | DinaBelova: sure, but at least the BPs will be finally reviewed | 15:40 |
| DinaBelova | ildikov, sure | 15:40 |
| dhellmann | DinaBelova: yes, true, but the tradeoff is that code reviews should be easier, because we would have agreed to the design in advance | 15:40 |
| DinaBelova | and not appearing on the LP without the need | 15:40 |
| DinaBelova | dhellmann +1 | 15:41 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... true enough, but we'd have to look at that extra upfront workload as an investment for the future | 15:41 |
| ildikov | dhellmann: +1 | 15:41 |
| eglynn | k, we're up against the shot-clock here so better move on | 15:41 |
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| llu-laptop | b.t.w. does the approval of ceilometer-spec patch will be reflected on launchpad blueprint? | 15:41 |
| eglynn | llu-laptop: my understanding was that "approved" status would be gated on the gerrit review of the BP | 15:42 |
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| eglynn | llu-laptop: ... as opposed to just being set on an ad-hoc basis | 15:42 |
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| llu-laptop | eglynn: got that, please move on | 15:43 |
| eglynn | #topic Tempest integration | 15:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tempest integration (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:43 | |
| eglynn | _nadya_: anything new to report? | 15:43 |
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| DinaBelova | btw these patches are the following | 15:44 |
| _nadya_ | no valuable updates. Postgres doesn't work quick enough too :( | 15:44 |
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| DinaBelova | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/tempest+owner:vrovachev,n,z | 15:44 |
| _nadya_ | DinaBelova: some became abandoned today or yesterday | 15:44 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: so those patches are still effectively blocked from landing by the sqla performance issues? | 15:44 |
| DinaBelova | already restored) | 15:44 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, yes | 15:45 |
| DinaBelova | we're blocked by the f20/ubuntu14 | 15:45 |
| DinaBelova | with mongo | 15:45 |
| DinaBelova | that is working 30x times faster | 15:45 |
| _nadya_ | we may move on to 'performance tests' :) | 15:45 |
| eglynn | k, so no change then until we sort out the sqla issues and/or gate the longer-running tests on mongo | 15:45 |
| DinaBelova | _nadya_, yes) | 15:45 |
| _nadya_ | eglynn: yep | 15:46 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, yes, it looks so | 15:46 |
| eglynn | fair enough, so that dovetails nicely to the next topic | 15:46 |
| eglynn | #topic Performance testing | 15:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Performance testing (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:46 | |
| eglynn | ityaptin: the floor is yours, sir! | 15:46 |
| ityaptin | how you known we started perfomance testing | 15:47 |
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| DinaBelova | #link https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ARpKiYW2WN94JloG0prNcLjMeom-ySVhe8fvjXG_uRU/edit?usp=sharing | 15:47 |
| ityaptin | we tests mysql, mongo, hbase - it's standalone backends and habse cluster on VMs | 15:47 |
| eglynn | ityaptin: it was on the meeting agenda and discussed on the IRC channel yesterday | 15:48 |
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| ityaptin | And I guess all core reviers to take look on this document | 15:48 |
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| DinaBelova | as currently we got feedback from you, eglynn, I guess and that's it | 15:49 |
| DinaBelova | I mean from core team | 15:49 |
| ityaptin | tests results of mysql shows what it's work more than 30 times slower than hbase or mongo | 15:49 |
| DinaBelova | dhellmann, ildikov, jd__, gordc ^^ | 15:49 |
| ildikov | ityaptin: I think it will be very useful after having the revised SQL models, etc | 15:49 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova, ityaptin: so I was also wondering if the test harness used to generate the load was up on github or somewhere similar? | 15:50 |
| dhellmann | does that include any tuning of mysql itself? or changes to our indexes? | 15:50 |
| ityaptin | ildikov, yes) | 15:50 |
| ildikov | so we can compare how much the situation is better | 15:50 |
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| _nadya_ | to evaluate "new model" we need results for the old one. to compare | 15:50 |
| eglynn | ityaptin: ... having the loadgen logic in the public domain would be really useful for anyone following up on your results | 15:51 |
| ityaptin | eglynn, not yet) but I can, if you want) | 15:51 |
| _nadya_ | dhellmann: no, no tuning | 15:51 |
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| eglynn | ildikov: excellent, that would be great! | 15:51 |
| DinaBelova | ityaptin, I guess it'll be anyway better to share it | 15:51 |
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| eglynn | ityaptin: ^^^ | 15:51 |
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| eglynn | darned tab completion of irc nicks! | 15:51 |
| DinaBelova | okay, and one more time - core team - please take a look on the results | 15:51 |
| DinaBelova | and please propose your own cases/ideas | 15:52 |
| ildikov | eglynn: np ;) | 15:52 |
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| DinaBelova | as ityaptin is going to continue this work | 15:52 |
| dhellmann | _nadya_: it would be useful to have some profiling info about what part of the sql driver is so slow, to see if tuning helps | 15:52 |
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| _nadya_ | so the main plea is "please tell us what results do you want to see" | 15:52 |
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| dhellmann | mongo was really slow at one point, until we improved the indexes there | 15:52 |
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| ityaptin | dhellmann, I'll try to find bottleneck in mysql | 15:53 |
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| _nadya_ | dhellmann: ok, will take that into account | 15:53 |
| gordc | DinaBelova: this is with a single worker?... i get the feeling sql will never work unless with multiple workers (it was consistently 10x slower for me) | 15:53 |
| DinaBelova | gordc, yes single one for now | 15:53 |
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| llu-laptop | gordc: there is a 3-collector setup | 15:54 |
| DinaBelova | gordc, ityaptin is planning to try other variant too | 15:54 |
| ildikov | dhellmann: did you mean there SQLAlchemy as driver? | 15:54 |
| ityaptin | dhellman, if we have some results, it will be shown | 15:54 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova, ityaptin, _nadya_: any ideas on the cause of the saw-tooth pattern observed in time-per-message for hbase as the load is scaled up in the 3-collector case? | 15:54 |
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| ityaptin | we had 2 ideas: | 15:55 |
| dhellmann | I wonder if there's a more efficient way to implement _create_or_update() in that sql driver | 15:55 |
| eglynn | ... i.e. the semi-regular spikes in the time-per-message | 15:55 |
| ityaptin | 1) It's connection pool size in hbase and mongo. It is not true. | 15:55 |
| gordc | the api response time are concerning. especially for only 100k samples... i was testing with 1million and it was comparable/better than that on sql. | 15:55 |
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| ildikov | _create_or_update was changed not so long ago or it was just planned to be changed? | 15:56 |
| ityaptin | we test different poolsizes in hbase and all results have same pattern | 15:56 |
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| gordc | dhellmann: i'd hope to drop the _create_or_update logic... the update option is a bottleneck. | 15:56 |
| _nadya_ | eglynn: ityaptin speaking about 1-collector case | 15:56 |
| ityaptin | 2) greenpool size | 15:56 |
| dhellmann | gordc: yeah | 15:56 |
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| ityaptin | grenn pool size is not tested yet. | 15:57 |
| _nadya_ | eglynn: there is a peak there with 400 m/s. Regarding 3-collectors case I don't know the answer yet | 15:57 |
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| gordc | fyi, this is the etherpad i created for ceilometer reschema session: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ceilometer-schema | 15:57 |
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| eglynn | _nadya_: k | 15:57 |
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| _nadya_ | eglynn: actually we don't tune hbase yet. only schema optimization | 15:58 |
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| DinaBelova | ok, any questions here? as that's close to the end of the meeting | 15:58 |
| eglynn | gordc: yeah re. API responsiveness, the "was 141.458 a typo or in seconds?" comment is revealing | 15:58 |
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| eglynn | ... that sounds unusable as an API | 15:59 |
| ityaptin | :( | 15:59 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn, yeah... | 15:59 |
| gordc | eglynn: agreed..especially for such a small set. | 15:59 |
| eglynn | ... would cause an LB or haproxy to drop the connection long before the API call completes :( | 15:59 |
| eglynn | right, we a lot of work to do on performance | 16:00 |
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| eglynn | but we're outta time now | 16:00 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, +1 | 16:00 |
| eglynn | lets continue the discussion in ATL | 16:00 |
| eglynn | thanks folks! ... let's close now | 16:00 |
| DinaBelova | bye | 16:01 |
| eglynn | #endmeeting ceilometer | 16:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 24 16:01:01 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-04-24-15.01.html | 16:01 |
| fabio | bye | 16:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-04-24-15.01.txt | 16:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-04-24-15.01.log.html | 16:01 |
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| ildikov | thanks all, bye | 16:01 |
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| mtreinish | #startmeeting qa | 17:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 24 17:00:58 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mtreinish. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:01 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'qa' | 17:01 |
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| mtreinish | hi who do we have here today? | 17:01 |
| marun | hi | 17:01 |
| mlavalle | hi | 17:01 |
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| mtreinish | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/QATeamMeeting#Proposed_Agenda_for_April_24_2014_.281700_UTC.29 | 17:01 |
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| andreaf | hi | 17:01 |
| mtreinish | ^^^ Today's agenda | 17:01 |
| dkranz | hi | 17:01 |
| sdague | o/ | 17:02 |
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| mtreinish | mkoderer, afazekas: you guys around? | 17:02 |
| afazekas | hi | 17:03 |
| mtreinish | well let's get started | 17:03 |
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| mtreinish | #topic Oslo Liaison (mtreinish) | 17:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Oslo Liaison (mtreinish) (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:03 | |
| mtreinish | so I brought this up during last week's meeting | 17:03 |
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| mtreinish | but I thought that'd I ask during the alternate time too | 17:04 |
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| mtreinish | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Oslo/ProjectLiaisons | 17:04 |
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| mtreinish | the oslo team is looking for a person to be a focal point on keeping up with oslo changes in the projects | 17:04 |
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| mtreinish | I think it would be good to have someone do that for tempest | 17:04 |
| mtreinish | does anyone want to volunteer? | 17:04 |
| mtreinish | ok well I'll bug people in person at summit about it then :) | 17:05 |
| mtreinish | let's move onto the next topic | 17:05 |
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| mtreinish | #topic Summit sessions (mtreinish) | 17:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Summit sessions (mtreinish) (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:05 | |
| mtreinish | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Juno-QA-design-summit-topics | 17:05 |
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| mtreinish | so we currently have only one extra session proposal | 17:06 |
| mtreinish | so we need to figure out which one we can drop | 17:06 |
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| mtreinish | I also rejected boris-42's rally w/ tempest proposal because it wasn't in the qa program. But, thinking about it might be a good idea to have that session | 17:07 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: Are "How to improve the UX of our testing tools:" and "Tempest GUI / Should we have a tempest GUI (in Horizon)?" similar? | 17:07 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: I think we should have the rally session | 17:07 |
| marun | ux -> user experience | 17:07 |
| marun | not necessarily ui | 17:07 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: I can combine them, but UX one was strictly about test tooling | 17:08 |
| mtreinish | like the testr headaches | 17:08 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: ok | 17:08 |
| sdague | honestly, I'd rather give ux a whole block | 17:08 |
| sdague | I think it would be good to talk through, and hopefully get some voluteers | 17:08 |
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| sdague | especially as I think testr will be on github around then | 17:08 |
| mtreinish | the gui one is about making a tempest server which stores results and actually runs tempest with a client and a horizon plugin | 17:08 |
| dkranz | arguably rally should be part of the qa program | 17:08 |
| mtreinish | masayuki had a cool little diagram | 17:08 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: ok | 17:08 |
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| sdague | yeh, having a rally session would be interesting to talk that through and figure out the challenges in having it more part of the fold | 17:09 |
| marun | I'm wondering if the UX issue shouldn't be cross-project | 17:09 |
| sdague | marun: possibly, though that ship has sailed | 17:09 |
| marun | all projects suffer the same issues - the test tooling being suited more to running tests in ci than developing with them | 17:09 |
| sdague | the cross project sessions were set over a week ago | 17:09 |
| marun | ah, fair enough | 17:09 |
| mtreinish | marun: yeah it's too late for the cross project | 17:09 |
| marun | in that case, I hope I get to participate | 17:09 |
| mtreinish | and I'm fine with giving it a qa slot | 17:10 |
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| andreaf | do we have anything about tempest outside of devstack / tempest for multinode which is functional to --> tempest in toci? | 17:10 |
| marun | and +1 for scheduling it | 17:10 |
| mtreinish | marun: well I can move it around a bit so it won't overlap | 17:10 |
| mtreinish | for you hopefully | 17:10 |
| marun | mtreinish: awesome | 17:10 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: Maybe Marc's two could be combined? | 17:11 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: the closest one on that topic would be the gui one | 17:11 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: yeah I was thinking that | 17:11 |
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| mtreinish | they are related | 17:11 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: masayuki's idea is about making tempest easy for operators | 17:11 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: One is kind of a sub-case of the other. | 17:11 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: yeah that's a better description because fuzz testing will use the negative framework | 17:11 |
| sdague | mtreinish: so if we combine marc's 2 | 17:11 |
| mtreinish | then it's drop 1 | 17:12 |
| sdague | and we drop service debug, and bring in rally, does that make us good? | 17:12 |
| mtreinish | and I'll give up my service debug api one | 17:12 |
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| dkranz | +1 | 17:12 |
| mtreinish | yeah we should be all set then | 17:12 |
| sdague | cool | 17:12 |
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| mtreinish | ok, then the session list has been finalized, unless anyone has something else to add on it | 17:13 |
| dkranz | sdague: BTW, with regard to your branchless tempest item, has that idea been broadly accepted at this point? | 17:13 |
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| mtreinish | I'll schedule things after the meeting | 17:13 |
| sdague | dkranz: well, it's in effect | 17:13 |
| dkranz | sdague: :) | 17:13 |
| sdague | I mostly got head nodding | 17:13 |
| dkranz | sdague: cool | 17:13 |
| marun | i would nod, but i don't actually understand the implications well enough | 17:13 |
| sdague | we'll find out the first time when someone tries to land juno specific test | 17:13 |
| marun | i'm looking forward to hearing more at summit | 17:14 |
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| sdague | marun: the qa-spec hopefully covers most of the major bits https://github.com/openstack/qa-specs/blob/master/specs/branchless-tempest.rst | 17:14 |
| sdague | but we'll definitely talk at summit | 17:14 |
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| mtreinish | ok, let's move onto the next topic | 17:15 |
| marun | sdague: cool | 17:15 |
| mtreinish | #topic Specs Review | 17:15 |
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| mtreinish | ok so we don't have any people who put there specs on the agenda for this week | 17:16 |
| mtreinish | we've got a handful of open specs for review | 17:16 |
| mtreinish | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/qa-specs,n,z | 17:16 |
| mtreinish | so if people could take a look when they get a chance that would be cool | 17:16 |
| andreaf | mtreinish: I fixed syntax issues in my qa-specs, but I still have to address the comments | 17:17 |
| mtreinish | does anyone have a spec review that they would like to discuss? | 17:17 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: I have a question about my non-admin spec. | 17:17 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: ok | 17:17 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: ok, go ahead | 17:17 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: There was a comment from andreaf that we should have a network admin config option. | 17:17 |
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| dkranz | mtreinish: And you and I had discussed removing the one for compute because it was not used. | 17:18 |
| mtreinish | a network admin config option? what does it specify? | 17:18 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: At some point hopefully tempest could have its own domain as an option for admin tests (some) | 17:18 |
| sdague | dkranz: so there are 2 classes of admin that we need to worry about right? | 17:18 |
| sdague | there is *all* admin | 17:18 |
| dkranz | sdague: At least 2 | 17:18 |
| sdague | and keystone admin | 17:18 |
| dkranz | sdague: Yes, and this is complicated because services don't really deal with this | 17:19 |
| sdague | and in keystone v3 we could be admin of a domain | 17:19 |
| andreaf | dkranz, mtreinish, sdague: for identity service there is an overall admin and a domain admin (with v3) | 17:19 |
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| dkranz | sdague: For example, should 'nova list --all-tenants' return *all* or all in the domain? | 17:19 |
| sdague | andreaf: right | 17:19 |
| andreaf | but it is possible to define admin for services as well | 17:19 |
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| dkranz | So this will get complicated and need to be hashed out. | 17:19 |
| dkranz | But I don't want this to get in the way of the capability to run non-admin now. | 17:20 |
| sdague | dkranz: so I feel like we need @test.admin('....') | 17:20 |
| sdague | that specifies the kind | 17:20 |
| sdague | of admin needed | 17:20 |
| andreaf | sdague: the list of roles would be useful | 17:20 |
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| sdague | the point of the qa-spec is to actually hash it out in advance so the implementation can be pretty straight forward :) | 17:20 |
| afazekas | The '....' should be admin capabilities ? | 17:21 |
| sdague | afazekas: yeh | 17:21 |
| sdague | like what it needs | 17:21 |
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| mtreinish | sdague: but how do we specify the valid things in the config file | 17:21 |
| sdague | honestly, I haven't thought that part all the way thorugh | 17:21 |
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| dkranz | sdague: ok, I will think a little more about this. | 17:21 |
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| sdague | that's a good question, these should be clarified in the spec | 17:21 |
| andreaf | roles and policies are heavily customizable and if we want tempest to be portable to real clouds we need something like list of roles a tests depends one | 17:22 |
| dkranz | sdague: The trouble is that it is perfectly clear for what we have now. | 17:22 |
| sdague | dkranz: not really, there are lots of different admin creds in our config | 17:22 |
| dkranz | sdague: It just doesn't work | 17:22 |
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| dkranz | sdague: So where should we draw the line? | 17:23 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: yeah but we need to have a way to tell tempest what it has so we can check the list of roles against it | 17:23 |
| dkranz | sdague: Wait until everything supports keystone v3 to do anything? | 17:23 |
| sdague | dkranz: we can cut at keystone admin and service admin today | 17:23 |
| sdague | honestly, I feel like we can dump all the service admins into a single bucket | 17:23 |
| sdague | to begin with | 17:24 |
| dkranz | sdague: ok, I'm good with that. | 17:24 |
| afazekas | andreaf: there are to many capabilities defined in the services, and possible capabilities (in the policy.jsons) are frequently changing | 17:24 |
| dkranz | sdague: It is a very small change from what I had | 17:24 |
| sdague | dkranz: but we should have sample syntax on the decorator | 17:24 |
| sdague | in the spec | 17:24 |
| andreaf | sdague, dkranz: we could introduce service admin roles in devstack | 17:25 |
| sdague | we could | 17:25 |
| sdague | honestly, lets make this spec clear enough for someone to implement | 17:25 |
| sdague | because right now, it's still missing some details, as seen by this conversation | 17:25 |
| andreaf | sdague: ok - that's perhaps a dofferent spec - to have something more complex that a single admin to rule them all | 17:26 |
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| sdague | we also have to address tenant isolation in non admin environment | 17:26 |
| sdague | I feel like that's still missing, and maybe it's not actually dkranz's spec, but it needs to happen soon | 17:27 |
| sdague | because we need to stop running serial, as it keeps hiding bugs | 17:27 |
| sdague | even in non admin environments | 17:27 |
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| mtreinish | sdague: we depend on domains for that right? | 17:27 |
| mtreinish | which means we have to land the v3 auth stuff first | 17:27 |
| sdague | we don't need to | 17:27 |
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| sdague | we can do it with preallocted users | 17:28 |
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| sdague | which, honestly, a service provider would probably find much more palatable | 17:28 |
| mtreinish | so we set the concurrency = the number of predefined tenants | 17:28 |
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| mtreinish | that's an interesting sync problem between putting something in the conf file and using it in the .testr.conf | 17:29 |
| mtreinish | unless we leave it up to the user to do it correctly | 17:29 |
| mtreinish | sdague: but yeah I feel like that's a different spec | 17:30 |
| dkranz | sdague: These are all good ideas. I mentioned some of this in the spec but did not think we were going to address the whole ball of wax right now. | 17:30 |
| afazekas | Maybe some should ask for good practices for v3 roles and admin users and policies... on the ML | 17:30 |
| sdague | afazekas: good thought | 17:30 |
| sdague | afazekas: you want to send that out? | 17:30 |
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| afazekas | sdague: I would recommend a better writer :) | 17:31 |
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| andreaf | afazekas: I can try if you want, not that my english is fantastic though :D | 17:31 |
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| afazekas | andreaf: thx | 17:32 |
| mtreinish | #action andreaf to write a ML post asking about good v3 keystone practices | 17:32 |
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| dkranz | mtreinish: I thought about the multiple users but am not sure how the testr processes get mapped. | 17:32 |
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| mtreinish | dkranz: I actually made a mistake above, the concurrency is set in the cli for testr | 17:33 |
| mtreinish | by default it equals # cpus | 17:33 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: Yes but we have to map to user/tenant names somehow | 17:33 |
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| sdague | so I guess this actually opens up a meta question | 17:33 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: which means each tempest process has to have a different config | 17:33 |
| sdague | we clearly have a longer list of things that we want in tempest | 17:33 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: not necessarily | 17:34 |
| sdague | that none of the most active people are working through yet | 17:34 |
| sdague | this as a good example | 17:34 |
| sdague | what would be a good mechanism for listing / signalling these wants | 17:34 |
| dkranz | sdague: I suggest allowing "specs" that are not fully formed and do not yet have an implementer | 17:35 |
| andreaf | sdague: perhaps the qa-specs are | 17:35 |
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| andreaf | dkranz: +1 | 17:35 |
| mtreinish | sdague: I'm not sure we could keep an etherpad, because it's kinda nebulous | 17:35 |
| sdague | mtreinish: yeh, etherpad seems not good | 17:35 |
| dkranz | sdague: But we need to use a collaboration tool, not gerrit to flesh them out. Google docs for example. | 17:36 |
| sdague | what about a single page list in qa-specs ? | 17:36 |
| sdague | basically paragraph level description | 17:36 |
| dkranz | sdague: pointing to google docs? | 17:36 |
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| sdague | no, not pointing to google docs :) | 17:36 |
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| sdague | in qa-spec | 17:36 |
| mtreinish | sdague: so a spec with a list of TODO things | 17:36 |
| dkranz | sdague: ok, but how do we collaboratively evolve them? gerrit sucks for this. | 17:37 |
| sdague | like a TODO.rst (better name tbd) | 17:37 |
| sdague | dkranz: I actually like gerrit for this | 17:37 |
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| sdague | what are the concerns you have with gerrit on this? | 17:37 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: when someone is ready to implement it we break it off into it's own spec | 17:37 |
| dkranz | sdague: It does not support multiple writers | 17:37 |
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| sdague | dkranz: you can just grab the review and push your own rev | 17:37 |
| dkranz | sdague: I know. But we are moving to the kind of process that zillions of people use, and there are tools designed for that. | 17:38 |
| dkranz | sdague: Not code review systems | 17:38 |
| dkranz | sdague: I don;'t think we should argue about this now. | 17:38 |
| sdague | dkranz: do you think that zillions of people with simultaneous cursors makes it more clear? | 17:38 |
| sdague | :) | 17:39 |
| sdague | that's fine | 17:39 |
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| mtreinish | sdague: why don't you take it to the ML? | 17:39 |
| sdague | ok, so tabling that | 17:39 |
| sdague | sure | 17:39 |
| dkranz | sdague: not simultaneous, though I have done that :) | 17:39 |
| mtreinish | because I'm sure other people have ideas on this | 17:39 |
| sdague | yep | 17:39 |
| sdague | action me up | 17:39 |
| mtreinish | #action sdague to send a ML post about how to maintain a list of TODO items | 17:40 |
| dkranz | sdague: sorry, I meant zillions of users across all things done, not zillions on a single document | 17:40 |
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| mtreinish | ok, is there anything else on specs review? | 17:40 |
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| mtreinish | ok then moving on | 17:41 |
| mtreinish | #topic Blueprints | 17:41 |
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| mtreinish | julien-llp: you had a bp on the agenda that you wanted to talk about | 17:41 |
| julien-llp | yes, hi everyone | 17:41 |
| mtreinish | julien-llp: ok, go ahead | 17:42 |
| julien-llp | atthe moment this blueprint is waiting in the code review system and I thought that it could be a good idea to discuss a bit about it's relevancy | 17:42 |
| mtreinish | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/tempest/+spec/stress-test-ssh-floating-ip | 17:42 |
| julien-llp | originally this blueprint was meant to implement a stress test for checking the capability of a stack to launch (have ahve fully availabl for a user) a large number of servers | 17:43 |
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| mtreinish | julien-llp: you need to open a spec on qa-specs for the bp. We moved to a new process for bps | 17:43 |
| julien-llp | for the time being (and with my comprehension of tempest growing), I believed that this test can be used not only for in house stress tests but also a a non-regression test scenario | 17:43 |
| mtreinish | julien-llp: https://github.com/openstack/qa-specs/blob/master/README.rst | 17:43 |
| julien-llp | oh, ok, I'm not accustomed to this process by now :) | 17:44 |
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| mtreinish | julien-llp: we just started it for juno | 17:44 |
| julien-llp | allright, I will add it to this document so | 17:44 |
| mtreinish | julien-llp: so you want to take your stress test and make it a normal scenario test | 17:44 |
| mtreinish | ? | 17:44 |
| julien-llp | I implemented it that way, yes | 17:45 |
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| mtreinish | oh I looked at the code review I understand now | 17:45 |
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| mtreinish | you can just make that an api test | 17:45 |
| julien-llp | I believe this is relevant to test some small batches of instances since it's a fairly common use case, and once upun a time there was somes issues in Openstack about this | 17:45 |
| mtreinish | and use the decorator to use it in the stress suite | 17:45 |
| mtreinish | ping me after the meeting and we can discuss it on -qa | 17:46 |
| julien-llp | allright | 17:46 |
| mtreinish | ok does anyone else have any bp to discuss? | 17:46 |
| andreaf | yes | 17:46 |
| sdague | branchless tempest is going well | 17:46 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: ok, go ahead | 17:46 |
| sdague | we're enforcing correctly on icehouse, and seem to have all the major holes covered | 17:46 |
| andreaf | multi-auth | 17:47 |
| mtreinish | sdague: cool | 17:47 |
| mtreinish | sdague: have we had any backports merged with the new process? | 17:47 |
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| sdague | not yet, realistically the code queues are slow right now | 17:47 |
| andreaf | I rebased the pending changes and addressed comments, and also I fixed the unit tests forhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/82911/ so there are about 8 patchset available now | 17:47 |
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| mtreinish | andreaf: ok cool, I'll try to take a look at them today | 17:48 |
| andreaf | so next step I started working on is provide support for v3 in scenario tests, but I hit an issue | 17:48 |
| mtreinish | v3 support in the clients right? :) | 17:48 |
| andreaf | the problem is I can create most client with token and url | 17:49 |
| andreaf | but what if the token expires? | 17:49 |
| andreaf | we would need a way to globally handle 401 from clients, similar issue as with handling of rate limiting | 17:49 |
| andreaf | the only solution I can think of is to get that implemented in the clients - so to get v3 in the clients | 17:50 |
| afazekas | andreaf: the token's lifetime is 24h by default, A test case does not runs for more than 10 minute | 17:50 |
| andreaf | unless someone has any good idea on this | 17:50 |
| sdague | afazekas: the token lifetime is now 1h | 17:50 |
| sdague | by default | 17:50 |
| sdague | which is why we started tripping it | 17:50 |
| mtreinish | afazekas: also we can't assume the default lifetime either | 17:50 |
| andreaf | sdague, afazekas: yes I did not want to make that assumption | 17:51 |
| dkranz | sdague: Why can't devstack just set it to a larger number by default? | 17:51 |
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| sdague | dkranz: that doesn't solve real clouds | 17:51 |
| dkranz | sdague: At least in the gate. | 17:51 |
| sdague | we should address this | 17:51 |
| sdague | andreaf: is it possible to handle this as a decorator around the clients | 17:51 |
| sdague | if that exception comes up, redo the auth, then redo the call? | 17:52 |
| andreaf | well monkey patching the client | 17:52 |
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| dkranz | Yes, that was previously proposed for rate-limiting | 17:52 |
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| afazekas | Can you use a still valid token to get new one ? Can we have our manager to request new token if it would expire in 5 minute ? Do we really want to support the case when the tokens lifetime is smaller then 10 minute ? | 17:53 |
| andreaf | the client would redo the auth call now, but if I only give them token and service url they can't | 17:53 |
| sdague | andreaf: oh, this is because of official clients? | 17:53 |
| marun | maybe the auth code should be common across libraries and reusable by tempest? | 17:53 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: can you generate a token using v3 with keystone client? | 17:53 |
| andreaf | they would need to go to the auth provider and ask for a new token | 17:53 |
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| andreaf | mtreinish: yes that's what I'm doing | 17:53 |
| marun | or is there some benefit from tempest having its own implementation? | 17:53 |
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| mtreinish | andreaf: so why not catch the exception regen the token with keystone client and pass that to a new client | 17:54 |
| sdague | marun: mostly for the same reason we have our own implementation of everything, otherwise people tend to code around server bugs | 17:54 |
| mtreinish | or a new instance of the client | 17:54 |
| andreaf | yes | 17:54 |
| marun | sdague: uh | 17:54 |
| marun | sdague: if you're testing keystone, fine | 17:54 |
| dkranz | Sounds like we need a proxy for the official clients | 17:54 |
| marun | sdague: but i don't see why any other service would have to use custom coding | 17:54 |
| sdague | marun: which is one of the things we have to do anyway | 17:55 |
| marun | sdague: *sigh* | 17:55 |
| andreaf | it would be good if the client could be given a call back to an auth provider | 17:55 |
| marun | sdague: I hope I live to see mechanically-generated clients. | 17:55 |
| andreaf | https://review.openstack.org/90166 | 17:55 |
| marun | sdague: this constant make-work nonsense offends my delicate sensibilities | 17:55 |
| sdague | heh | 17:55 |
| mkoderer | hi folks, sry for being late :( | 17:56 |
| andreaf | I just published the code I'm working on - if anyone has good ideas on how to handle this please let me know - else we shall wait for clients to support v3 or an external auth provider | 17:56 |
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| mtreinish | andreaf: ok I'll take a look at that, I think we can discuss this in review or on -qa | 17:57 |
| sdague | andreaf: cool, is this something that will come up in a summit session? | 17:57 |
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| sdague | 2 minutes | 17:58 |
| andreaf | sdague: it could be relevant for the matrix one | 17:58 |
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| andreaf | sdague: I'll check if it can fit somewhere | 17:58 |
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| mtreinish | ok, well with <2 min let's get a list of reviews from people and close | 17:58 |
| mtreinish | #topic critical reviews | 17:58 |
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| mtreinish | so does anyone have any reviews that they'd like to get eyes on? | 17:59 |
| mlavalle | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/60008/ | 17:59 |
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| mtreinish | ok, well that's time | 18:00 |
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| mtreinish | thanks everyone | 18:00 |
| afazekas | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/90100/ some of SSH connection issue happens because the instance fails to initialize the timer (kernel boot) http://logstash.openstack.org/#eyJzZWFyY2giOiJtZXNzYWdlOiBcIk1QLUJJT1MgYnVnXCIgQU5EIHRhZ3M6XCJjb25zb2xlXCIiLCJmaWVsZHMiOltdLCJvZmZzZXQiOjAsInRpbWVmcmFtZSI6IjYwNDgwMCIsImdyYXBobW9kZSI6ImNvdW50IiwidGltZSI6eyJ1c2VyX2ludGVydmFsIjowfSwic3RhbXAiOjEzOTgzNTk2NTYwODEsIm1vZGUiOiIiLCJhbmFseXplX2ZpZWxkIjoiI | 18:00 |
| afazekas | n0= | 18:00 |
| mtreinish | #endmeeting | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 24 18:00:22 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-04-24-17.00.html | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-04-24-17.00.txt | 18:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-04-24-17.00.log.html | 18:00 |
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| bdpayne | #startmeeting OpenStack Security Group | 18:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 24 18:00:39 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is bdpayne. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group' | 18:00 |
| bdpayne | greetings everyone | 18:00 |
| ScottCarlsonPP | Hello | 18:00 |
| bknudson | bdpayne: hi | 18:00 |
| bdpayne | #topic Rollcall | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Rollcall (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:01 | |
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| shohel02 | hi | 18:01 |
| nkinder | hi all | 18:01 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:01 |
| paulmo | Paul Montgomery | 18:01 |
| torandu | part | 18:01 |
| malini1 | hello! | 18:01 |
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| ScottCarlsonPP | Scott @ PayPal | 18:01 |
| * hyakuhei here :D | 18:01 | |
| hyakuhei | Hey malini1 ! | 18:01 |
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| bdpayne | hi everyone, thanks for joining today | 18:01 |
| jasonhullinger | and here | 18:01 |
| bdpayne | #topic Agenda | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Agenda (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:01 | |
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| bdpayne | Anything that people would like to add to the agenda today? | 18:02 |
| hgedikli | here | 18:02 |
| chair6 | howdy | 18:02 |
| natedmac | her | 18:02 |
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| natedmac | here* | 18:02 |
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| hyakuhei | Busy one today. I don't have much to update - other than I'm working on an update to the guide | 18:02 |
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| bdpayne | I can provide a brief status update on the book | 18:02 |
| hyakuhei | Has anything happened in the threat analysis this week? | 18:02 |
| shohel02 | yes, | 18:03 |
| bdpayne | ok, so we can talk about the threat analysis work too | 18:03 |
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| shohel02 | we had a new template, not much outside | 18:03 |
| bdpayne | and we should do a review of open OSSNs | 18:03 |
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| bdpayne | anything else? | 18:03 |
| CristianF | Hi Everybody | 18:03 |
| bdpayne | ok, let's dive in | 18:04 |
| bdpayne | #topic Book updates | 18:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Book updates (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:04 | |
| bdpayne | So I've started coordinating the book update efforts | 18:04 |
| hyakuhei | Cool! Man it hurts to edit this xml. | 18:04 |
| bdpayne | Right now I'm taking a little time to assess what needs to happen | 18:04 |
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| bdpayne | If anyone has specific asks, please let me know | 18:04 |
| bknudson | it shouldn't be painful to write docs | 18:04 |
| bdpayne | either here, or just by email | 18:05 |
| bknudson | is it the tool? | 18:05 |
| bdpayne | The xml isn't bad... he just likes to complain ;-) | 18:05 |
| hyakuhei | So there's probably a good tool to use but editing the files directly... | 18:05 |
| hyakuhei | Hurts my (small) brain. | 18:05 |
| bdpayne | it is all in docbook | 18:05 |
| nkinder | ...speaking of XML, I do want to talk about OSSN format | 18:05 |
| ScottCarlsonPP | @bdpayne we'd like to start to provide enterprise guidance around PCI and compliance, should we consider that part of the book or separate white paperish thing. | 18:05 |
| bdpayne | sure, we can talk OSSN in a few | 18:05 |
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| bdpayne | ScottCarlsonPP that would be a nice addition to the compliance section of the book | 18:06 |
| malini1 | bdpayne: need to make references to the glossay in the book text | 18:06 |
| bdpayne | perhaps you can send me an email to coordinate moving ahead on that contribution? | 18:06 |
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| bdpayne | #action references the references in the book | 18:07 |
| ScottCarlsonPP | bdpayne will do | 18:07 |
| hyakuhei | ScottCarlsonPP: There's plenty that can be added to the existing compliance section too, especially around PCI | 18:07 |
| bdpayne | #action ScottCarlsonPP to contact bdpayne about compliance updates in the book (PCI and enterprise compliance) | 18:07 |
| bdpayne | #action bdpayne to review state of glossary and references in the book | 18:07 |
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| malini1 | what is everyone's feeling around: http://summit.openstack.org/cfp/details/8, "signing messages" to improve security of the rpc | 18:08 |
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| bdpayne | hyakuhei did you mention you have a book update that you're working on? | 18:08 |
| bdpayne | malini1 let's discuss that at the end | 18:08 |
| bdpayne | I'd like to keep us focused on the current agenda item atm | 18:08 |
| malini1 | :-) yes | 18:09 |
| hyakuhei | yeah just this https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1311204 | 18:09 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1311204 in openstack-manuals "Security Guide should discuss KSM impact" [High,Triaged] | 18:09 |
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| bdpayne | ah fantastic | 18:09 |
| bdpayne | let me know when you are ready for reviews there | 18:09 |
| hyakuhei | Will do, it'll need a few iterations of review, the writing is pretty crappy | 18:10 |
| bdpayne | #action hyakuhei is working on https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1311204 | 18:10 |
| bdpayne | np | 18:10 |
| bdpayne | any other book discussion today? | 18:10 |
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| nkinder | my OSSN format stuff fits in with the book | 18:10 |
| bdpayne | #topic Moving to OSSN | 18:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Moving to OSSN (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:10 | |
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| bdpayne | ok, let's cover some OSSN stuff | 18:10 |
| nkinder | I've been playing around with the best way to get the OSSNs to be published in an appendix of the book | 18:11 |
| nkinder | This is going to require docbook XML, and that may just be the right format to write and commit them in | 18:11 |
| bdpayne | perhaps | 18:11 |
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| bdpayne | certainly the easiest | 18:12 |
| nkinder | There is a docbook "article" type, and I've manually converted one note to try it out | 18:12 |
| nkinder | not the easiest for sure | 18:12 |
| bdpayne | otherwise, we could translate from a slightly less structured format into docbook | 18:12 |
| nkinder | ...but, we need to have ways to translate | 18:12 |
| bdpayne | if we play it right, the docbook could then be converted into all of the formats that we need / want | 18:12 |
| nkinder | we can use RST and translate to XML possibly too | 18:12 |
| shohel02 | nkinder: OSSN currently in markdown format , it should be easy to covert docbook? | 18:12 |
| bknudson | nkinder: can you post the docbook example somewhere? | 18:12 |
| bknudson | e.g., gerrit | 18:12 |
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| bdpayne | http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/ | 18:13 |
| bdpayne | ^^ converts from docbook to markdown and back again | 18:13 |
| nkinder | bknudson: I haven't yet, but I can. I was still hashing through details with anne | 18:13 |
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| nkinder | bdpayne: ok, I'll take a look at that. I would prefer to edit in markdown or RST or something other than XML | 18:13 |
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| bdpayne | so I would say either switch to docbook or explore tools to automate the conversion from markdown... if the later then we should validate that conversion using gerrit | 18:13 |
| nkinder | the gate jobs can then ensure that convert properly, and publishing can convert and publish | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | nkinder, yes I agree and I think that sticking with markdown is a good idea | 18:14 |
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| bdpayne | exactly | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | #action nkinder to explore conversion from markdown to docbook using the gate jobs | 18:14 |
| nkinder | I'll continue to hash out the right docbook end result with anne, then will figure out how we can translate | 18:14 |
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| shohel02 | thats would be great | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | so getting it in docbook is step1 | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | any thoughts on how to go from there to actually having it in the book appendix? | 18:15 |
| nkinder | If we auto publish to the book, do we even need to publish on the wiki? | 18:15 |
| shohel02 | i am currently coverting doc and xls to markdown format | 18:15 |
| nkinder | bdpayne: well, that's part of what I'm discussing with Anne. There are ways to do an include, but we need to hash out the details. | 18:15 |
| bdpayne | I think that putting it on the wiki is handy | 18:15 |
| bdpayne | but we should balance that against the amount of manual work | 18:16 |
| nkinder | but the docs are on the wiki too | 18:16 |
| bdpayne | ideally, I'd like an approved OSSN to auto publish to all the right places | 18:16 |
| malini1 | +1 to also have on wiki instead of having to download full book | 18:16 |
| nkinder | We would have to see what sort of auto wiki publishing is available. Next steps after the book. | 18:16 |
| bdpayne | right but I'm not sure if people will look into the back of the book to find an OSSN | 18:16 |
| nkinder | We still need to e-mail them out regardless | 18:16 |
| bdpayne | #action nkinder to continue to explore right path for integration of OSSNs into book appendix | 18:17 |
| bknudson | hopefully there's a docbook rendering to text | 18:17 |
| bdpayne | we render to html and to pdf by default | 18:17 |
| bdpayne | but docbook can render to lots of different formats | 18:17 |
| nkinder | bknudson: or markdown to text if we write in markdown | 18:17 |
| nkinder | ok, I have lots to explore here :) | 18:17 |
| bdpayne | indeed | 18:18 |
| bdpayne | thanks for taking this on nkinder | 18:18 |
| nkinder | sure | 18:18 |
| bdpayne | are there any open OSSNs at this point? | 18:18 |
| hyakuhei | +1 - very useful | 18:18 |
| nkinder | There are 2 | 18:18 |
| nkinder | one is owned by hyakuhei, the other has someone who was interested and then disappeared | 18:18 |
| bdpayne | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ossn | 18:18 |
| bdpayne | so which one needs an owner? | 18:19 |
| nkinder | So one is up for grabs if anyone is interested - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ossn/+bug/1260679 | 18:19 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1260679 in cinder "Multiple drivers set insecure file permissions" [High,In progress] | 18:19 |
| nkinder | It's a pretty easy one I think | 18:19 |
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| nkinder | any takers? | 18:19 |
| malini1 | if easy, i shall take! | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | is everyone familiar with what is involved here? | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | ok, thanks malini1 | 18:20 |
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| nkinder | malini: thanks! | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | fwiw, writing an OSSN is pretty easy and we have gentle reviewers ;-) | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | it's a great way to get involved | 18:20 |
| hyakuhei | We could possibly do with a mini version of the 'GerritWorkflow' page | 18:20 |
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| malini1 | :-) | 18:20 |
| nkinder | malini1: I can help through the process if needed. Just let me know. | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | #action malini1 to work on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ossn/+bug/1260679 | 18:21 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1260679 in cinder "Multiple drivers set insecure file permissions" [High,In progress] | 18:21 |
| malini1 | thanks nkinder! | 18:21 |
| bdpayne | ok anything else for OSSNs? | 18:21 |
| bdpayne | #topic Threat analysis update | 18:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Threat analysis update (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:21 | |
| bdpayne | shohel02 could you provide an update for us? | 18:22 |
| shohel02 | Yes, i have started to covert doc and XLS format to markdown format | 18:22 |
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| shohel02 | we think its an issue for reviewing and tracking | 18:22 |
| bdpayne | excellent | 18:22 |
| bdpayne | you may find that tool I linked earlier to be useful too | 18:22 |
| shohel02 | https://github.com/shohel02/OpenStack_Threat_Modelling/blob/master/Project_ThreatAnalysis_ComponentName_Number.md | 18:22 |
| shohel02 | here is some sample | 18:23 |
| shohel02 | https://github.com/shohel02/OpenStack_Threat_Modelling/blob/master/keystone/Formatted_Output/Keystone_ThreatAnalysis_TokenProvider_2.9.md | 18:23 |
| shohel02 | https://github.com/shohel02/OpenStack_Threat_Modelling/blob/master/keystone/Formatted_Output/Keystone_ThreatAnalysis_HighLevel.md | 18:23 |
| bdpayne | excellent | 18:24 |
| shohel02 | Another thing is david,HP and our threat analysis involved people are planning to go through the threat process again | 18:24 |
| shohel02 | that would be good reivew | 18:24 |
| bdpayne | sounds good | 18:24 |
| bdpayne | any other next steps? | 18:24 |
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| bdpayne | or areas where you need help from the group? | 18:24 |
| nkinder | bknudson: has anyone on the keystone core side been reviewing the threat analysis? | 18:25 |
| shohel02 | One of the step is after markdown complete help is required from keystone developers | 18:25 |
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| nkinder | shohel02: just for review, or anything else in particular? | 18:25 |
| bknudson | nkinder: I believe I mentioned the auth_token threat analysis at the keystone meeting once | 18:25 |
| shohel02 | here we need help | 18:25 |
| shohel02 | thanks.. | 18:26 |
| bdpayne | yeah, it would be great to get someone(s) from keystone core to be involved | 18:26 |
| bdpayne | to make sure that the ideas are represented accurately | 18:26 |
| shohel02 | yes | 18:26 |
| bdpayne | and to perhaps just open a communication channel | 18:26 |
| nkinder | ok, so a review at first, but I expect that some proposed improvements can come out of the analysis as well | 18:26 |
| shohel02 | i think OSSG people can also review the threats and docs | 18:27 |
| bknudson | I'm hoping things will settle down here soon so I can get more involved in security work | 18:27 |
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| bdpayne | yeah, and also to help keep the proposed improvements as things that are doable | 18:27 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, I'm in the same boat. | 18:27 |
| nkinder | I think everyone is :) | 18:27 |
| bdpayne | heh | 18:27 |
| bdpayne | ok, thanks for the update shohel02 | 18:27 |
| nkinder | I can help review too since I've been developing more on keystone too | 18:27 |
| bdpayne | anything else on threat analysis? | 18:27 |
| * morganfainberg is in-fact here, just quiet. | 18:27 | |
| shohel02 | thats great | 18:27 |
| shohel02 | thats all | 18:28 |
| bdpayne | #topic Open Discussion | 18:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:28 | |
| bdpayne | malini1 asked about http://summit.openstack.org/cfp/details/8 | 18:28 |
| bdpayne | perhaps we start there | 18:28 |
| nkinder | I'm pretty familiar with that effort | 18:28 |
| bdpayne | I know that this and related issues have come around at each summit for the past several | 18:28 |
| nkinder | malini1: Was there something in particular you wanted to know? | 18:28 |
| malini1 | Earlier there was a kerberos like effort from Simo but this is lighter weight | 18:29 |
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| malini1 | and in conjunction with us keeping certs in barbican, thius is lighter weight | 18:29 |
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| bdpayne | at a high level, this sounds good but it is all in the details for stuff like this | 18:29 |
| bdpayne | I'd like to attend this session and learn more | 18:29 |
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| hyakuhei | Kinda feels like PGP re-invented with x509 | 18:29 |
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| hyakuhei | central registry etc. | 18:30 |
| nkinder | here's some background... | 18:30 |
| nkinder | The Kite project is the first step, which uses symmetric crypto | 18:30 |
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| nkinder | lots of low-level detail is here - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MessageSecurity | 18:30 |
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| bknudson | is kite planned for juno? | 18:31 |
| nkinder | bknudson: it's going into barbican, but my guess is that it will be at a POC level for Juno | 18:31 |
| bknudson | going to be part of identity or barbican? | 18:31 |
| nkinder | it will require changes on the oslo.messaging side to use it | 18:31 |
| nkinder | it has some caveats for group messaging though, which is where PKI might help out | 18:31 |
| nkinder | I covered this pretty well in the API doc for Kite/KDS | 18:32 |
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| * bdpayne notes the time, but doesn't believe the meeting room is in use for another 30 min... | 18:32 | |
| nkinder | I have some slides and diagrams on how it works that might be of interest to folks too | 18:32 |
| bdpayne | nkinder I'd certainly be interested | 18:33 |
| bdpayne | :-) | 18:33 |
| malini1 | +1 for slides | 18:33 |
| nkinder | ok, let me dig up the API doc | 18:33 |
| bdpayne | perhaps you can send something out to the ML | 18:33 |
| nkinder | will do | 18:33 |
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| hyakuhei | Yes please. | 18:33 |
| shohel02 | me too | 18:33 |
| nkinder | warning that it's a lot of slides as it was made for an in-person preso | 18:33 |
| bknudson | looked like the conference would have rooms for each project -- is there one for security? | 18:33 |
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| nkinder | so the diagrams are useful, but the words are sparse | 18:33 |
| bdpayne | security won't have a room | 18:34 |
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| nkinder | who here is going to be at the summit? | 18:34 |
| bdpayne | but we do have a session in the cross project room | 18:34 |
| bknudson | hang out in identity room | 18:34 |
| nkinder | Maybe I can present it to OSSG folks outside of a session | 18:34 |
| bdpayne | I tend to hang out with Keystone and, these days, Barbican | 18:34 |
| bdpayne | o/ I will be at the summit | 18:34 |
| hyakuhei | nkinder: yeah something like that might work | 18:34 |
| elo | I have a topic that I would like to bring up | 18:34 |
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| * ScottCarlsonPP is at summit. doing a presentation PayPal and "is your cloud compliant" | 18:34 | |
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| shohel02 | will be in the summit | 18:35 |
| bdpayne | elo go for it | 18:35 |
| malini1 | malini at summit too | 18:35 |
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| elo | are we aware of the open policy framework being worked on called Congress | 18:35 |
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| elo | I'll be at he Summitt | 18:35 |
| bdpayne | #action bdpayne to schedule an OSSG meetup at the summit | 18:35 |
| bdpayne | I am not aware of Congress | 18:35 |
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| bdpayne | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Congress | 18:36 |
| elo | it's still in the early stage and some of the developers are trying to get people more involved to get it to incubation status | 18:36 |
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| elo | it is provide policy as a service across different cloud services | 18:37 |
| elo | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Congress | 18:37 |
| bdpayne | who is driving this effor? | 18:37 |
| malini1 | elo -- would that mean policy move out of keystone? | 18:37 |
| bdpayne | s/effor/effort/ | 18:37 |
| elo | Peter Ballard | 18:37 |
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| nkinder | policy is sort of out of keystone AFAIK | 18:38 |
| nkinder | keystone defines roles and policy for keystone, but everyone else has their own policy.json, right> | 18:38 |
| shohel02 | policy in OSLO | 18:38 |
| bknudson | the policy code was moved to oslo | 18:38 |
| elo | and a few other developers at VMware.. and a few other developers at other companies | 18:38 |
| malini1 | soemthing coming up in barbican is control access at the level of each key on the basis of domain/project/user | 18:38 |
| bknudson | every project has their own policy.json | 18:38 |
| elo | it seems that policy is in each project and there isn't a common broker… we should look into this a little more | 18:39 |
| elo | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Congress | 18:39 |
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| nkinder | elo: it's an interesting effort, but it's going to take buy-in from all of the projects | 18:39 |
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| bdpayne | so is this for the control plane or for the guests? | 18:39 |
| bdpayne | oh, and getting this stuff right is... hard | 18:39 |
| nkinder | very | 18:39 |
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| nkinder | also, does every service have to go to congress to check policy every time? | 18:40 |
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| nkinder | if so, it becomes a bottleneck. So in comes caching, etc. | 18:40 |
| ScottCarlsonPP | no, services have to send lobbyists to congress on their behalf. | 18:40 |
| elo | LOL | 18:40 |
| malini1 | :-D | 18:41 |
| bdpayne | ha | 18:41 |
| elo | its very open and flexible, so it really is how things are configured to leverage it… | 18:41 |
| bdpayne | so, interesting project with lots of open questions | 18:41 |
| bdpayne | could be interesting to chat to the people working with this at the summit | 18:41 |
| elo | correct… i just want to make sure people are aware of it on this list. | 18:41 |
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| bdpayne | yeah, thanks | 18:41 |
| elo | there will be an unconference on it I know | 18:42 |
| bdpayne | ahh, handy | 18:42 |
| nkinder | One more thing on the secure messaging topic. The API doc I mentioned is here - https://github.com/stackforge/kite/blob/master/doc/source/api/v1.rst | 18:42 |
| ScottCarlsonPP | this sounds like something that needs to have terms defined very succinctly. there's a lot of definitions of this stuff out there. scares me a bit that implementation directives won't match between plugins | 18:42 |
| nkinder | The beginning covers the use-case and how things work pretty well, so it's good reading if you want to know more about it. | 18:42 |
| nkinder | ...of course I'm biased since I wrote a good chunk of it :) | 18:42 |
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| bdpayne | cool, I'll check it out | 18:44 |
| CristianF | @nkinder there are several models in Congress: proactive, reactive, interactive, so once policies are set congress may act proactively, react to request from other modules, or work on behalf of additional admin decisions | 18:44 |
| bdpayne | any other business ? | 18:44 |
| bknudson | is secure messaging more than using SSL for qpid/kombu/whatever? | 18:44 |
| nkinder | bknudson: yes, absolutely | 18:45 |
| nkinder | bknudson: SSL is for encryptin gthe communication with the broker | 18:45 |
| nkinder | the broker can then read (and modify) the message contents | 18:45 |
| nkinder | secure messaging means the sender encrypts/signs for the recipient(s) | 18:45 |
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| nkinder | the broker does not need to be trusted, and it can't tamper with the message contents | 18:46 |
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| nkinder | bknudson: I'll send out my slides. I have nice diagrams that show the difference between broker SSL/TLS and what Kite does | 18:46 |
| bdpayne | let's taking the PKI for messaging discussion to the mailing list | 18:46 |
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| hyakuhei | which of course means you need to know the current keys for the destination | 18:46 |
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| bdpayne | I think that it will be of broad interest | 18:46 |
| bdpayne | and we should probably wrap things up here | 18:46 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: short lived tickets... That's where Kite comes in | 18:46 |
| nkinder | ok, enough here. :) | 18:47 |
| bknudson | nkinder: slides would be great. thanks | 18:47 |
| bdpayne | thanks everyone | 18:47 |
| nkinder | thanks all! | 18:47 |
| bdpayne | #endmeeting | 18:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:47 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 24 18:47:21 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:47 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-04-24-18.00.html | 18:47 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-04-24-18.00.txt | 18:47 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-04-24-18.00.log.html | 18:47 |
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| hyakuhei | nkinder: Where can I read more about Kite? | 18:47 |
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