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| sc68cal | hello everyone | 13:56 |
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| sc68cal | #startmeeting neutron_ipv6 | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 20 14:00:08 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sc68cal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_ipv6' | 14:00 |
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| xuhanp | hello everyone | 14:00 |
| sc68cal | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Neutron-IPv6-Subteam#Agenda_for_May_20th Agenda | 14:00 |
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| sc68cal | #topic blueprints | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "blueprints (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:00 | |
| aveiga | o/ | 14:01 |
| sc68cal | Firstly, thank you everyone who attended the summit and the design summit session - we had some good discussions | 14:01 |
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| sc68cal | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/neutron-ipv6-atlanta-summit Design summit etherpad | 14:02 |
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| sc68cal | We had some good discussions about some of the blueprints that are on our roadmap - it was also nice to meet everyone in person | 14:03 |
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| aveiga | +1 - it was good to put faces to nicks | 14:03 |
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| Shixiong | yah, glad to meet with everybody in person | 14:04 |
| baoli | hi | 14:04 |
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| baoli | it's great to see everyone in the summit | 14:05 |
| xuhanp | Oh. I feel sorry for missing that :-) Really hope I can meet you all sometime. | 14:05 |
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| sc68cal | So one of the things that came up at the summit was doing tempest tests | 14:06 |
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| sc68cal | I currently have filed a couple blueprints for Tempest for testing the attributes | 14:07 |
| dane_leblanc | Those are API tests, rather than scenario tests? | 14:07 |
| aveiga | they have to be for now | 14:07 |
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| aveiga | since the functionality isn't implemented | 14:08 |
| aveiga | we should do scenarios once the patches land | 14:08 |
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| sc68cal | +1 - currently API tests - scenario in the future | 14:08 |
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| sc68cal | SridharG filed a BP and both he and I have been adding patches linked to the bp | 14:08 |
| sc68cal | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/tempest/+spec/ipv6-subnet-attributes Tempest IPv6 subnet attributes | 14:08 |
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| pcarver | I have a general question that goes well beyond IPv6. Are there test cases that run within a tenant VM to verify functionality? | 14:09 |
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| sc68cal | pcarver: I don't know to be honest. Probably worth asking in #openstack-qa | 14:10 |
| dane_leblanc | There is a basic network scenario (connectivity) test that does pings and SSH to VMs | 14:10 |
| pcarver | e.g (in an IPv6 context) testing that a couple of VMs can get spun up and can reach each other on their IPv6 interfaces | 14:10 |
| sc68cal | dane_leblanc: right but those tests are from controller -> VMs | 14:10 |
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| dane_leblanc | Oh, don't know if that will test v6 yet. | 14:11 |
| dane_leblanc | Yes | 14:11 |
| sc68cal | I think all the tests are from control node connecting to instance, not instance to instance, but I could be wrong | 14:11 |
| pcarver | sc68cal: ok, researching that is on my (long) list of todos | 14:11 |
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| sc68cal | Also- the scenario that is currently used for Tempest relies on the L3 agent | 14:11 |
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| sc68cal | there is a blueprint for more advanced scenarios, and I am working on adding a scenario test that reflects the way we deploy Neutron in production | 14:12 |
| sc68cal | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/tempest/+spec/neutron-provider-networking Tempest provider networking blueprint | 14:12 |
| sc68cal | Mostly because that's the quickest way for me to start doing ipv6 tests in tempest, in our lab | 14:12 |
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| sc68cal | There is also some pieces that need to land in DevStack and devstack-gate. For example, the tempest API tests for the ipv6 subnet attributes will fail in the icehouse branch of neutron since they disaled the attributes | 14:14 |
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| sc68cal | So I am adding a config knob to tempest.conf to have those tests skip when running the icehouse job. | 14:14 |
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| sc68cal | Anyway that's the blueprints I have been working on between summit sessions. Does anyone have new BPs to discuss? | 14:15 |
| xuhanp | sc68cal, I will restore my client code since I saw it's on the agenda | 14:15 |
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| baoli | shall we talk about the RA BP? | 14:16 |
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| sc68cal | I hesitate to discuss it, to be honest. My concern is that we will beg bogged down arguing the merits of a single ipv6 attribute vs. two attributes, when we struggled mightily to get the two attributes merged for Icehouse. But I won't stop people | 14:17 |
| pcarver | sc68cal: no blueprints yet, and probably not for a while, but we've got several folks actively working on getting up to speed on current IPv6 status in OpenStack and figuring out what the gaps are for our use cases | 14:17 |
| aveiga | I'm actually writing a BP right now for getting IPv6-only networks to have a flaoting IPv4 address | 14:18 |
| sc68cal | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/92164/ "Add IPv6 RA support in neutron" | 14:18 |
| aveiga | not posted yet though | 14:18 |
| dane_leblanc | I've started on the design spec for multiple v6 prefix per port. | 14:18 |
| baoli | sc68cal, that's fine. But the openstack implementation for the two attributes seem to have a long way to go get reviewed. | 14:18 |
| aveiga | dane_leblanc: thank you, as that will be a prereq for getting floats to work | 14:19 |
| dane_leblanc | I've got a basic question re. if multiple subnets belong to a network, and port is created, how many subnets/prefixes should get assigned? | 14:19 |
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| sc68cal | ok - let's hang on to questions till open discussion | 14:19 |
| dane_leblanc | sc68cal: Okay. | 14:19 |
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| sc68cal | OK - so we have baoli's bp that is posted, so please feel free to review - aveiga you said yours is WIP, and dane_leblanc is that the case as well? | 14:20 |
| baoli | sc68cal, your BP to calculate SLAAC addr in neutron in the case of provider SLAAC is still under review | 14:20 |
| Shixiong | dane_leblanc, if you need anything, feel free to let me know | 14:21 |
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| dane_leblanc | shixiong: Thanks! :) | 14:21 |
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| Shixiong | It will be critical for us to work together, so the way IP address is assigned maintain consistent between single subnet and multiple subnets. | 14:21 |
| sc68cal | if you guys have any of them in gerrit let me know so I can add links so they apppear in the minutes | 14:22 |
| Shixiong | btw, seemed like you survived through the race. :D | 14:22 |
| dane_leblanc | shixiong: yes, survived. :) | 14:22 |
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| sc68cal | baoli: yes - it is still under review | 14:22 |
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| sc68cal | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/88043/ IPv6 provider networks | 14:23 |
| baoli | sc68cal, one thing I want to mention is that there are a few methods out of there to generate the interface ID | 14:23 |
| xuhanp | sc68cal, before the summit, you mentioned we should split shixiong's code into several commits? is that still the plan? | 14:23 |
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| baoli | sc68cal, modified eui64 is just one of those methods | 14:23 |
| sc68cal | xuhanp: Yes - I mentioned it to Shixiong at the summit as well | 14:23 |
| aveiga | baoli: this came up already at the summit | 14:24 |
| aveiga | it's very difficult to programmatically support them all, and some are impossible | 14:24 |
| aveiga | if you'd like to submit a patch to support mod-EUI64, please do | 14:24 |
| aveiga | we currently only support EUI64 | 14:24 |
| baoli | aveiga, I thought that sc68cal's bp is doing do. I might be wrong | 14:25 |
| baoli | s/do/that | 14:25 |
| aveiga | it only supports plain EUI64 right now | 14:25 |
| baoli | aveiga, thanks. | 14:25 |
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| baoli | aveiga, another thing, what we do if it's provider dhcp? | 14:26 |
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| aveiga | same thing we do in IPv4 - nothing | 14:26 |
| aveiga | unless you want to suggest sniffing the neighbor table | 14:26 |
| sc68cal | also we wait for someone to have the usecase :) | 14:26 |
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| sc68cal | and figure out if we need to change anything | 14:26 |
| aveiga | in which case we should propose that as a whole to neutron in general, for v4 as well | 14:26 |
| aveiga | it's doable if we have the l3 agent running | 14:27 |
| sc68cal | I'm going to try and get through the rest of the agenda quick to give you guys half an our for open discussion - so bear with me | 14:27 |
| aveiga | it's more complicated though for an l2-prov net | 14:27 |
| Shixiong | dane_leblanc, who is that gentleman from Cisco who used to work on Dashboard? | 14:27 |
| aveiga | but doable | 14:27 |
| baoli | aveiga, sc68cal, I thought we should have some idea how to support them. | 14:27 |
| aveiga | baoli: let's table it for open discussion | 14:28 |
| aveiga | there are bugs and such to cover | 14:28 |
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| sc68cal | #topic code review | 14:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "code review (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:28 | |
| dane_leblanc | shixiong: Abishek, but don't know his IRC handle | 14:28 |
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| sc68cal | xuhanp: thanks for the heads up on restoring the patch. I'll ping Mark to remove his -2 | 14:28 |
| baoli | sc68cal, thanks for your review on the snat bug | 14:28 |
| Shixiong | Ok, thanks. I think we need to involve him too, so he can continue the work on Dashboard | 14:29 |
| xuhanp | sc68cal, yes. I saw your note in the review. | 14:29 |
| sc68cal | #link https://review.openstack.org/88584 Install SNAT rules for ipv4 only | 14:29 |
| sc68cal | baoli: no problem | 14:29 |
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| xuhanp | sc68cal and Shixiong, BTW, we are testing Shixiong's patch in our lab recently, so let me know if I can help with splitting the dnsmasq big patch. | 14:30 |
| xuhanp | And we found some problems with that patch :-) | 14:30 |
| Shixiong | Sure, thanks, xuhanp | 14:30 |
| Shixiong | Oh, yah, bring it up, I would love to fix the problem. :D | 14:30 |
| Shixiong | Btw, I spent a lot of time with your boss in the Summit, :D | 14:30 |
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| xuhanp | Shixiong, I will post the comment in your code review. | 14:31 |
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| Shixiong | Please, thanks a lot, xuhanp! | 14:31 |
| xuhanp | Shixiong, you are welcome | 14:31 |
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| sc68cal | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70649/ dnsmasq patch that needs to be split | 14:32 |
| sc68cal | any other code reviews? | 14:32 |
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| sc68cal | #topic bugs | 14:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "bugs (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:33 | |
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| sc68cal | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bugs?field.tag=ipv6 bugs tagged with ipv6 | 14:33 |
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| sc68cal | anything to discuss in bugs, or is everyone ready for open discussion | 14:34 |
| sc68cal | alrighty - thanks everyone for being patient | 14:35 |
| sc68cal | #topic open discussion | 14:35 |
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| dane_leblanc | I have a basic question re. multiple prefixes per port, if there are no other topics. | 14:37 |
| sc68cal | sounds good to me - thank you for your patience | 14:38 |
| dane_leblanc | Question is, if multiple subnets belong to a network, and a port is created, which subnets/prefixes should be associated by default? | 14:38 |
| dane_leblanc | v4 model is that one subet is selected, and then others can be updated. | 14:38 |
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| sc68cal | I'd assume an IP from each subnet that is linked to the network in the neutron API | 14:39 |
| dane_leblanc | I think this makes sense for v6, although I'm not sure which of a list of subnets should be chosen first. | 14:39 |
| baoli | dane_leblanc: one way is to allow all the v6 subnets, assuming that's what the user intended. | 14:39 |
| Shixiong | very good question | 14:40 |
| aveiga | I'm trying to understand the use cae for not just getting one of each | 14:40 |
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| dane_leblanc | If all v6 subnets are allowed, how can a user enable a given prefix on a subset of VMs? | 14:40 |
| aveiga | if you assigned a subnet to a network, I assume you want to use it? | 14:40 |
| aveiga | there's no attribute I know of for selectively enabling per-vm | 14:40 |
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| dane_leblanc | Let's say a user wants some VMs that don't have a public (globally addressable) prefix | 14:41 |
| aveiga | I think the issue there is that you'd have assumed topological reachability where it doesn't exist in practice | 14:41 |
| aveiga | so they don't provide a method for this | 14:41 |
| dane_leblanc | If that scenario makes sense, then we'd want to let's say disable SLAAC prefix assignment on some VMs | 14:42 |
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| baoli | dane_leblanc, that's a good question. So the question is how a neutron subnet is created, which is not associated with a neutron network, and you can get ips from it that can be assigned to some VMS | 14:42 |
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| aveiga | what you're asking for isn't selective subnets, it's flaoting IPs | 14:43 |
| aveiga | going the other way, you'd setup a subneet for floating IPs for IPv6, and only assign to some hosts | 14:43 |
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| aveiga | selectively doing slaac would mean a multicast filter per port | 14:43 |
| aveiga | which breaks RFC, and may also break regular v6 rachability | 14:44 |
| aveiga | since neighbor solicits would also be blocked | 14:44 |
| dane_leblanc | aveiga: Yes, this is looking towards floating-ip-like support. | 14:44 |
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| aveiga | so instead of selectively filtering subnets, why not just work on floating IPs? | 14:44 |
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| aveiga | I have some ideas in mind | 14:44 |
| baoli | aveiga, the name of floating ip in IPv6 would be confusing. | 14:44 |
| sc68cal | baoli: I disagree | 14:44 |
| sc68cal | I think it's a decent openstack-ism | 14:45 |
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| sc68cal | I mean AWS has "elastic IP addresses" | 14:45 |
| aveiga | we'd still doa float, just not with NAT | 14:45 |
| aveiga | it would be done via unicasted RA or a routed IP | 14:45 |
| baoli | sc68cal, those are coined for ipv4 | 14:45 |
| pcarver | baoli: I disagree as well. I'm not an IPv6 guru, nor a huge fan of NAT but I don't see anything wrong with floating IP as a concept that applies equally to v4 and v6 | 14:45 |
| sc68cal | true - but the principle is the same - IPs that can be rapidly allocated to instances | 14:45 |
| baoli | sc68cal, in that sense, I agree. | 14:46 |
| aveiga | yes, it would not be via NAT | 14:46 |
| sc68cal | just so happened in v4 land it's through nat - bleeech :) | 14:46 |
| aveiga | we would do floats as an extra addr | 14:46 |
| dane_leblanc | What might be confusing is that the v4 floating ips are public, where with v6 the prefixes we get by default are public | 14:46 |
| Shixiong | aveiga and dane_leblance, by using floating ipv6 address, the VM needs to be associated with the pool, but not the subnet, in order to support the use case Dane mentioned, right? | 14:46 |
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| aveiga | either a second IA_NA in the Advertise, or unicasted RA | 14:47 |
| aveiga | and static route to /128 | 14:47 |
| aveiga | do an RA for the float net, but set A and M to 0 | 14:47 |
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| aveiga | another BP I want to submit if I ever get the time | 14:47 |
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| Shixiong | this is another question from my side. Usually the unicast RA is sent as response to RA solicit msg. Can we unwillingly initiate unicast RA to the VM without solicit msg? | 14:48 |
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| aveiga | sure | 14:48 |
| Shixiong | If so, what VM is going to do with it? | 14:48 |
| aveiga | we have to write the packet ourselves though | 14:48 |
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| baoli | shixiong, yes | 14:48 |
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| aveiga | it's still an RA, it should just accept it | 14:49 |
| baoli | aveiga, the radvd supports unicast RA | 14:49 |
| aveiga | yup :) | 14:49 |
| aveiga | this is why I had been suggesting using radvd in the wrouter namespace before | 14:49 |
| Shixiong | Does IPv6 stack on VM side will do check and realize it is not the response to its own solicit msg? | 14:49 |
| Shixiong | and drop it? | 14:49 |
| aveiga | I had plans ;) | 14:49 |
| aveiga | Shixiong: the RFC doesn't require that | 14:49 |
| baoli | aveiga, the RA BP would like to address that as well | 14:49 |
| aveiga | and I think we can file bugs where that happens | 14:49 |
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| aveiga | s/wrouter/qrouter | 14:50 |
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| Shixiong | I see, this will be very interesting method | 14:50 |
| Shixiong | I like it | 14:50 |
| aveiga | it makes it easy to inject at will, and remove at will by setting the preferred and valid lifetimes low | 14:50 |
| Shixiong | True. I have been thinking about it since last time we discussed it. | 14:51 |
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| Shixiong | Now the question is, when will we implement it? :D | 14:51 |
| baoli | aveiga, yes | 14:51 |
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| aveiga | Shixiong: as soon as I get 5 min to myself to write out the BP :) | 14:51 |
| baoli | the RA BP would pave the way for it to be implemented | 14:51 |
| Shixiong | LOL | 14:51 |
| aveiga | baoli: I don't see a reason why the existing BP would block it | 14:51 |
| Shixiong | Do you guys know whether dnsmasq has the same feature to send unicast RA? | 14:52 |
| baoli | aveiga, it just that the BP is trying to address that in a whole | 14:52 |
| sc68cal | markmcclain had a interesting idea that he talked with aveiga nad I about on that note | 14:52 |
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| Shixiong | if the dependancy is on RADAD, then somebody wants to write the driver for RADAD first? | 14:52 |
| aveiga | Shixiong: no need to rewrite, since dnsmasq still needs to do dhcpv6 | 14:53 |
| dane_leblanc | Maybe someone can help me here: comparing v6 to v4, SLAAC (public) is similar to float IPs, ULA (private) is similar to fixed IPs, so in Openstack, the public/private assignments would happen in reverse? | 14:53 |
| aveiga | we need an extra set for radvd in qrouter | 14:53 |
| baoli | The BP doesn't depend on RADVD. But the implementation would start with radvd | 14:53 |
| sc68cal | dane_leblanc: fixed IPs is sort of a carry over from nova | 14:53 |
| aveiga | dane_leblanc: nope, slaac is no different thatn DHCPv6, it's a way to add an addr to a port | 14:53 |
| sc68cal | the way nova was structured, you *had* to do NAT | 14:53 |
| Shixiong | aveiga, if dnsmasq can send unicast RA, then we can continue working on it. If not, and we have to use RADAD, then we need to add driver, right? | 14:54 |
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| aveiga | for us, fixed IPs are already public | 14:54 |
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| aveiga | adding a float would be a way to do a reserved, semi-static public | 14:54 |
| aveiga | that you can shuffle around | 14:54 |
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| aveiga | for instance, as a VIP for an haproxy instance | 14:54 |
| dane_leblanc | aveiga: Thanks for the clarification. | 14:54 |
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| aveiga | Shixiong: yes, or we can write a python RA generator | 14:55 |
| aveiga | RAs are damned simple | 14:55 |
| aveiga | they're completely stateless, too | 14:55 |
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| Shixiong | agree, just want to make sure we don't reinvent the wheel if something already exists | 14:55 |
| aveiga | +1 | 14:55 |
| aveiga | just worried about adding another dep | 14:56 |
| sc68cal | yeah we talked with markmcclain about it | 14:56 |
| sc68cal | if it's small, it's worth looking into | 14:56 |
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| Shixiong | he said he would code this part during his business trip, not sure what's the outcome. | 14:57 |
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| baoli | just want to mention that nova networking uses radvd | 14:57 |
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| aveiga | o.O | 14:57 |
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| aveiga | I was unaware that nova had v6 | 14:57 |
| Shixiong | I like this o.O | 14:58 |
| baoli | all that radvd does is from the RFC, pretty standard. So it can be replaced with any other implementation | 14:58 |
| aveiga | that's my raised eyebrow | 14:58 |
| sc68cal | Does nova still create a column in the database for each IP when you create a network via the nova api? Anyone allocate try allocating a /64? | 14:58 |
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| sc68cal | column...jeez | 14:59 |
| sc68cal | row | 14:59 |
| aveiga | try allocating a /48 | 14:59 |
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| aveiga | watch your DB cry | 14:59 |
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| baoli | sc68cal, aveiga, the first ipv6 experiment I had was using nova | 14:59 |
| Shixiong | btw, sc68cal, I saw some errors when I run the patch to insert two attributes to DB in Icehouse release | 14:59 |
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| Shixiong | do u want me to send the logs to you? | 15:00 |
| sc68cal | do you mean when you try and apply the patch? | 15:00 |
| Shixiong | yah | 15:01 |
| Shixiong | No worry. I can email u offline. | 15:01 |
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| sc68cal | Icehouse has the patch already | 15:02 |
| sc68cal | they just added another change to disable the attributes in the REST API | 15:02 |
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| bauzas | sc68cal: are you close to the end of the meeting ? | 15:02 |
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| sc68cal | bauzas: yep sorry | 15:02 |
| sc68cal | alright everyone, till next week | 15:02 |
| sc68cal | #endmeeting | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:03 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 20 15:03:03 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:03 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-05-20-14.00.html | 15:03 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-05-20-14.00.txt | 15:03 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-05-20-14.00.log.html | 15:03 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting gantt | 15:03 |
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| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 20 15:03:37 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'gantt' | 15:03 |
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| n0ano | anyone here to talk about the scheduler? | 15:03 |
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| bauzas | o/ | 15:04 |
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| bauzas | well, left-handed, so \o | 15:04 |
| n0ano | bauzas, you beat me by aout 1 min. poking the neutron guys :-) | 15:04 |
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| bauzas | :) | 15:04 |
| bauzas | I'm also lurking the #libvirt discussion | 15:05 |
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| n0ano | really, where's that, I thought the alt channel was doing Marconi right now | 15:05 |
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| bauzas | that's in #openstack-meeting-3 | 15:06 |
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| n0ano | bad enought we had 5 parallel tracks at the summit, now we have 3 parallel IRC meeting lines | 15:07 |
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| bauzas | sounds like libvirt meeting is beating gantt one by number of active participants :) | 15:08 |
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| n0ano | yeah, it it's just you & I today we can close this down, I think we're familiar with what happened at the summit (my main topic for today) | 15:09 |
| n0ano | I think what I'll do is send out an email with some links to the etherpads from the summit, just so people know where to look for what happened | 15:10 |
| toan-tran | hye guys | 15:10 |
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| toan-tran | here to talk about the summit :) | 15:10 |
| n0ano | toan-tran, hi, it's just bauzas you and I today, I'm thinking we should cancel today and try again next week. | 15:11 |
| toan-tran | no prob | 15:11 |
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| toan-tran | n0ano: I find the etherpad rather hard to read | 15:11 |
| bauzas | n0ano: well, just to inform you about the juno-1 timeline | 15:12 |
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| toan-tran | no concrete actions | 15:12 |
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| n0ano | toan-tran, pretty typical, you have to try and read between the lines a lot. | 15:12 |
| n0ano | bauzas, what about the timeline? | 15:12 |
| toan-tran | plus, we have several works in tight relation, like instance group + life-cyce, etc | 15:12 |
| bauzas | toan-tran: well, there were concrete results :) | 15:12 |
| bauzas | for each sched related topic, I can give an overview | 15:12 |
| bauzas | juno-1 is by June 12th IIRC | 15:13 |
| bauzas | so 3 weeks by now | 15:13 |
| n0ano | bauzas, I suggest you reply to my email, that'll hit a lot more people than just the 3 of us | 15:13 |
| bauzas | ok, sounds reasonable :) | 15:13 |
| toan-tran | n0ano: +1 | 15:13 |
| bauzas | n0ano: I'm really sorry about the forklift session I held | 15:13 |
| n0ano | bauzas, why, I thought it went as well as can be expected | 15:14 |
| bauzas | n0ano: sounds like my english accent made me out of game | 15:14 |
| toan-tran | bauzas: what are you talking about? | 15:14 |
| n0ano | nah, I had no trouble understanding you | 15:14 |
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| toan-tran | I participated in the session, you've done well I'd say | 15:14 |
| bauzas | n0ano: I wish I would have participated more | 15:15 |
| n0ano | without putting a muzzle on some people that would have been difficult :-) | 15:15 |
| bauzas | anyway, let's wrap up in ML | 15:15 |
| toan-tran | well, the role of presentator is to coordinate the discussion, and that you've done well | 15:15 |
| bauzas | will provide feedback about all discussions | 15:15 |
| toan-tran | they talked a lot :D | 15:15 |
| n0ano | my goal at those session are just to start a discussion, which you did | 15:15 |
| bauzas | thanks for these feedback, folks | 15:16 |
| n0ano | OK, follow up on email, talk to you next week | 15:16 |
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| n0ano | #endmeeting | 15:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:16 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 20 15:16:11 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:16 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-05-20-15.03.html | 15:16 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-05-20-15.03.txt | 15:16 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-05-20-15.03.log.html | 15:16 |
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| toan-tran | however, I have to admit, I had difficult understanding all :) | 15:16 |
| toan-tran | too technical details for me :) | 15:16 |
| n0ano | toan-tran, you can `neve` have too much technical :-) | 15:16 |
| n0ano | s/neve/never | 15:17 |
| toan-tran | me thump up | 15:17 |
| * toan-tran thump up | 15:17 | |
| toan-tran | ok see you around | 15:17 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: by saying that I have to reply to your email, you mean which email ? | 15:17 |
| bauzas | because I can't find one by today | 15:18 |
| n0ano | hasn't been sent yet, I was going to talk about it at the IRC meeting, but now I'm send out an email | 15:18 |
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| n0ano | expect it in an hour or so | 15:18 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: ok | 15:21 |
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| sarob | - | 16:58 |
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| thinrichs | Hi all | 17:02 |
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| thinrichs | #startmeeting CongressTeamMeeting | 17:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 20 17:03:05 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is thinrichs. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:03 |
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| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'congressteammeeting' | 17:03 |
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| sarob | thinrichs: hey | 17:03 |
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| henrynash | hi, sorry I’m late | 17:03 |
| sarob | thinrichs: still meeting on -3? | 17:03 |
| thinrichs | Sorry--wrong room. Should be in -3. | 17:04 |
| thinrichs | #endmeeting | 17:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:04 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 20 17:04:10 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:04 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/congressteammeeting/2014/congressteammeeting.2014-05-20-17.03.html | 17:04 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/congressteammeeting/2014/congressteammeeting.2014-05-20-17.03.txt | 17:04 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/congressteammeeting/2014/congressteammeeting.2014-05-20-17.03.log.html | 17:04 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov ping | 17:08 |
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| lbragstad | Keith Stone? | 18:00 |
| dolphm | ayoung, bknudson, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, fmarco76, nkinder, lloydm: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:00 |
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| ayoung | Yo | 18:00 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:00 |
| lbragstad | hey | 18:00 |
| stevemar | howdy | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | o\ | 18:00 |
| stevemar | o/ | 18:00 |
| dstanek | o/ | 18:00 |
| gyee | \o | 18:00 |
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| alexbarclay-orac | Hello | 18:01 |
| clu_ | hi! | 18:01 |
| dolphm | give me one sec, building a voting thingy | 18:01 |
| dolphm | #startmeeting keystone | 18:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 20 18:02:37 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:02 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:02 |
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| dolphm | welcome back from the summit :) | 18:02 |
| dolphm | hopefully everyone besides btopol is decompressed enough for a meeting | 18:03 |
| dolphm | #topic identity-specs repo coming soon | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "identity-specs repo coming soon (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:03 | |
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| dolphm | so to kick off juno for real, we're starting an identity-specs repo, similar to nova-specs | 18:03 |
| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94119/ | 18:03 |
| bknudson | I'm assuming anything we have in flight now requires an identity-spec | 18:03 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: IIRC, we should have it available this friday? | 18:03 |
| bknudson | any bps | 18:04 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: yes and no... | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, that is the idea. by next week i'll have the basic structure in place | 18:04 |
| stevemar | going forward with this eh | 18:04 |
| dolphm | we can introduce a hard requirement for -specs starting in j2 | 18:04 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, or well by monday of next week i should have all the supporting structure (like nova has) up for review | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | or so | 18:04 |
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| dolphm | so if your feature is in flight, you have some hope of avoiding writing a full blown spec... and thus some encouragement to land your feature early in the juno cycle :) | 18:05 |
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| dolphm | still, -specs highly appreciated for all blueprint-level changes | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ++ | 18:05 |
| dolphm | #info Mandatory for feature proposals juno-2 onward | 18:05 |
| ayoung | I made a first hack of what the content will be based on the nova one | 18:05 |
| dolphm | and... | 18:05 |
| dolphm | #info Propose a feature spec first, and when it's approved/merged, keystone-drivers will create and manage a corresponding blueprint in LP | 18:05 |
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| dolphm | so, basically only keystone-drivers will be creating BP's | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, does this mean we will be evicting the current mess of BPs? | 18:06 |
| jamielennox | how does -specs affect client? | 18:06 |
| ayoung | #link https://github.com/admiyo/keystone-specs/ | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg | from LP that is. | 18:06 |
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| ayoung | feel free to clone and we can resolve differences when the real one gets up and running | 18:06 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: for the most part, that's what i'm thinking (mark them as obsolete?) not sure what the best approach is, or if it should be case by case | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ++ | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, case-by-case but most should be obsolete | 18:07 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: nova's template includes a client impact section, but i'd like to have a discrete dir for client-specific work | 18:07 |
| ayoung | BP should not be obsolete if the work will still happen, but maybe someone to indicate "neeeds full spec" | 18:07 |
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| jamielennox | dolphm: ok | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, so we need to figure out the correct status. | 18:08 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: but since the release naming doesn't apply to the client, we'll have to create separate versioned directories as we go | 18:08 |
| gyee | does keystone spec have a cross-project impact section? | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, it can. | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, i'll make sure there is a section for that | 18:08 |
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| gyee | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:08 |
| nkinder | we could mark them as obsolete and ask for the person who proposed it to implement a full spec. That should weed out old or non-important stuff | 18:08 |
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| lbragstad | nkinder: that's a good diea | 18:09 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: i'd like to simply reference nova's template rather than ever maintaining our own | 18:09 |
| ayoung | How about "if it does not have a full spec, it stays "new" and "needs review" means it has a real spec? | 18:09 |
| mfisch | +1 to nkinder 's plan | 18:09 |
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| dolphm | nkinder: that's what i was thinking | 18:09 |
| dolphm | nkinder: maybe stick a warning in the whiteboards until j2, and then do that? | 18:09 |
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| dolphm | hopefully that'll provide sufficient notice to those not here | 18:09 |
| nkinder | yeah, sort of a deprecation period | 18:09 |
| dolphm | nkinder: ++ | 18:10 |
| ayoung | Tag as "review" once there is a real spec, I think....ignore anything that is "new" and weed out any that stay new for past j2? | 18:10 |
| nkinder | morganfainberg: do you have a security impact section in the template? | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | nkinder, haven't built the template, but i belive that nova has that section, and if not, i want it | 18:10 |
| ayoung | tell people to move to "drafting" if they are actively working on it | 18:10 |
| dolphm | and fair warning... nova's experience with switching to -specs was that the community wasn't particularly good at doing design work up front. we've got some experience with identity-api, but i assume we'll see the same pain. so if you want to land a j2 feature, start working on the spec asap | 18:11 |
| nkinder | morganfainberg: yeah, they added one IIRC | 18:11 |
| dolphm | #link https://github.com/openstack/nova-specs/blob/master/specs/template.rst nova's spec tempalte | 18:11 |
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| ayoung | ++ | 18:11 |
| dolphm | there is no cross project impact section, but i think that would be valuable for nova as well | 18:12 |
| dolphm | gyee: ^ | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ++ | 18:12 |
| ayoung | The security impact portion of the template is pretty decent | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | there will also be a python check job that will ensure all sections exist | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | (similar to nova's) | 18:12 |
| ayoung | here it is slightly modified for Keystone https://github.com/admiyo/keystone-specs/blob/master/specs/template.rst | 18:12 |
| gyee | dolphm, yes, I would imagine nova have some dependency on others as well | 18:12 |
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| ayoung | We need to plus up the JSON-SPEC thing... | 18:13 |
| ayoung | JSON schema | 18:13 |
| henrynash | (oops, sorry I’m late) | 18:13 |
| dstanek | how does the assignee stuff work? as things change will a new review need to be submitted? or do we not care? | 18:13 |
| dolphm | their API section overlaps our use of identity-api as well | 18:13 |
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| bknudson | do we have separate spec directory for API as well as client? | 18:14 |
| gyee | ayoung, performance impact, nice! | 18:14 |
| dolphm | dstanek: i had the same question for the nova folks -- but i'm not sure they've been doing this long enough to have an answer yet | 18:14 |
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| ayoung | bknudson, I'd suggest no | 18:14 |
| dolphm | bknudson: we'll still have identity-api | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i am not sure we need it for API, we already have the identity-api repo | 18:14 |
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| dolphm | the REST API impact section could just link to one or more identity-api reviews :) | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ++ | 18:15 |
| lbragstad | ++ | 18:15 |
| ayoung | bknudson, instead, under specs, we can have client subdir parallel with juno .... | 18:15 |
| lbragstad | especially if the identity api docs need updates | 18:15 |
| ayoung | the spec should write the identity-api | 18:15 |
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| stevemar | does this mean we stop creating new blueprints? | 18:16 |
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| ayoung | pretty much everything you need to update the identity API is in the spec template, so don't approve a bp until the spec is close enough that you could at least submit an API review | 18:16 |
| dolphm | stevemar: for everyone but keystone-drivers, yes | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | stevemar, and only create the BPs for approved specs | 18:16 |
| dolphm | stevemar: when a spec is approved and merged, keystone-drivers will create a corresponding BP to track the work | 18:16 |
| stevemar | gotcha | 18:16 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:17 |
| dolphm | i think most of these details we can work out in review as we get into the process, etc | 18:17 |
| stevemar | is there a way to lock down LP so only keystone-drivers can create BPs | 18:17 |
| stevemar | ? | 18:17 |
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| dolphm | stevemar: i asked that question as well, and i think the answer is no :( | 18:17 |
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| dolphm | stevemar: the bp priority attribute is the only one that is "protected" afaik | 18:17 |
| dolphm | the only one we use, anyway | 18:18 |
| dolphm | even "Approved" can be set by anyone | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg | lame | 18:18 |
| stevemar | dolphm, so we're not really going to fix the clutter in LP | 18:18 |
| dolphm | or maybe i'm thinking of Approver | 18:18 |
| lbragstad | we'll probably have to keep tabs to make sure any new bps coming in get redirected to specs. | 18:18 |
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| dolphm | stevemar: in the long run, i think we will | 18:18 |
| * morganfainberg wants storyboard. | 18:18 | |
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| dstanek | why even have blueprints it the info is in git? just to link against? | 18:19 |
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| morganfainberg | dstanek, release management | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek, all the release management stuff still leverages LP | 18:20 |
| lbragstad | and we should still be able to tag bp in commits. | 18:20 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:20 |
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| dolphm | the agenda is quite long today, so let's move on | 18:20 |
| dolphm | #topic Potential Keystone Hackathon dates in San Antonio, TX for Juno | 18:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Potential Keystone Hackathon dates in San Antonio, TX for Juno (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:21 | |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: ah, that sucks. hopefully that will change once everyone adopts this new methodology | 18:21 |
| dolphm | #link http://doodle.com/s4g7mm9n7qyu9inh vote for dates here if you're planning on attending | 18:21 |
| stevemar | i think this will make it harder for new contributors ... (d'oh topic has changed) | 18:21 |
| ayoung | Just to motivate you all: if we make it July 18th, you have to help me celebrate my Birthday | 18:22 |
| dolphm | wow, already a clear preference for 9, 10, 11 | 18:22 |
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| stevemar | that was quick | 18:22 |
| henrynash | (give a core a button to click on…and they will) | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | lol | 18:23 |
| stevemar | henrynash ++ | 18:23 |
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| ayoung | If you give a core a button, he is going to want a review to go with it. If you give him a review..... | 18:24 |
| henrynash | lol | 18:24 |
| nkinder | I've read too many of those books... | 18:24 |
| ayoung | the people here with kids get it. | 18:24 |
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| dstanek | i'm good for either date - i originally thought PyOhio would overlap, but I'm good there | 18:25 |
| dolphm | i'll let this run until the end of the day or so, before i pursue event space more aggressively, etc | 18:25 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:25 |
| ayoung | Pagination and Filtering? | 18:25 |
| gyee | dstanek, PyOhio? | 18:25 |
| dolphm | hoping for http://www.geekdom.com/san-antonio/events or as a backup, rackspace headquarters again | 18:26 |
| stevemar | rax headquarters was nice enough | 18:26 |
| * lbragstad wants to try the slide | 18:26 | |
| ayoung | nkinder, we are not looking to piggyback the Security group meetup with the keystone one, right, just Barbican? | 18:27 |
| bknudson | two geeks enter one geek leaves | 18:27 |
| dolphm | oh, this'll also likely be a joint event, overlapping for a day or so with a barbican hackathon | 18:27 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: ++ | 18:27 |
| nkinder | OSSG was talking about piggybacking, but I think it would be too much | 18:27 |
| dolphm | we briefly discussed M-Tu-W barbican, W-Th-F keystone in the same space | 18:27 |
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| ayoung | I also heard August floated. | 18:27 |
| clu_ | ayoung: wondering what is the state of pagination is at the moment as a follow-up to | 18:28 |
| clu_ | this discussion a few months back - | 18:28 |
| clu_ | http://openstack.10931.n7.nabble.com/keystone-Pagination-td17386.html | 18:28 |
| dstanek | gyee http://www.pyohio.org/ | 18:28 |
| ayoung | OSSG wanted it nearer to the release data IIRC | 18:28 |
| nkinder | I was thinking August for some cross-project security stuff around Jamie's common client, but August might be too late in the cycle | 18:28 |
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| ayoung | clu_, I still think pagination is a UI antipattern | 18:29 |
| nkinder | ...that's not really OSSG though, but more of a cross-project developer hackfest around security | 18:29 |
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| dolphm | 30 minutes and 3 topics left :) | 18:29 |
| dolphm | #topic Pagination and Filtering | 18:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Pagination and Filtering (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:29 | |
| clu_ | filtering then? | 18:29 |
| dolphm | so, there was a summit session on cross-project API consistency, wherein pagination and filtering was a highly relevant topic | 18:29 |
| henrynash | dolphm: ahh, didn’t see that one | 18:30 |
| dolphm | and the outcome was that we need a TC-blessed API conventions repo/document that spans cross projects | 18:30 |
| gyee | pagination is like a religion around here, extremist at both ends | 18:30 |
| dolphm | i threw my name down on a list of people to get that going | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, imagine my surprise | 18:30 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, the tc bit that is | 18:30 |
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| clu_ | +++ (to oblivion) dolphm | 18:30 |
| bknudson | pagination and filtering of what? | 18:30 |
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| bknudson | every list api? | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, any place pagination/filtering is implemented | 18:31 |
| gyee | bknudson, it has to be consistent across the board if we are going to do it | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | or is wanted. | 18:31 |
| jamielennox | i was in that session, there was lots of talk of needing it - and no actual resolution to how it was to be done | 18:31 |
| bknudson | how do we know where it's needed? | 18:31 |
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| stevemar | having it for some resources, like domains seems silly | 18:31 |
| jamielennox | are you signing up for another debate? | 18:32 |
| bknudson | projects? | 18:32 |
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| bknudson | role assignments? | 18:32 |
| gyee | same with version discovery, extension discovery, etc | 18:32 |
| dolphm | but with regard to pagination specifically, the only voice (that i was aware of) in the room in favor of a specific approach to pagination (jaypipes=marker/limit), agreed that server-specified next/previous links were generally more reliable across various backends (which is the problem that keystone has with ldap, sql, nosql, etc) | 18:32 |
| bknudson | we will hopefully not have users and groups and those are the obvious ones | 18:32 |
| gyee | they are really stack-wide initiatives that should be driven by the TC | 18:32 |
| henrynash | bknudson: so when I implemented a version of this back in the day (Grizzly?), it pushed pagination into teh backends the way we pushed filtering into teh backends, using the driver_hints concept | 18:32 |
| jaypipes | dolphm: agreed. | 18:32 |
| dolphm | s/more reliable/more implementable/ ? | 18:33 |
| dolphm | most likely to not be unimplentium | 18:33 |
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| bknudson | we could implement it would just be very slow anyways | 18:33 |
| dolphm | yeah... | 18:33 |
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| dolphm | so not viable with any real scale | 18:34 |
| henrynash | dolphm: if we do decide to do it, I’m up for doing the implementation, since I attempted it before | 18:34 |
| dstanek | prev & next links are the right way to go | 18:34 |
| gyee | but slow is not an API thing, its a backend thing | 18:34 |
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| gyee | so deployer have the options for different backends | 18:34 |
| dolphm | gyee: the problem with enforcing expectations of a specific approach like marker/limit is that it's exposing implementation details to the client, so an interface problem becomes a performance problem | 18:35 |
| bknudson | if you want to be able to scroll to any page in a large table then following next links is going to be slow | 18:35 |
| gyee | dolphm, no where in the API spec mention anything about peformance | 18:36 |
| gyee | or expected performance | 18:36 |
| ayoung | dolphm, I like your approach: we return 200 results max. Select 201. If we get 201 "more results, please filter" | 18:36 |
| gyee | it has always been a deployer enhancement | 18:36 |
| dolphm | bknudson: even the horizon guys agree that filtering is a better solution that a billion direct links to pages | 18:36 |
| henrynash | bknudson: and if you really ARE having to scroll lots an dlots of pages, you’re probably screwed anyway | 18:36 |
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| clu_ | what type of filtering is in place today? | 18:37 |
| henrynash | clu_: I think we’re in good shape with filtering as far as the SQL backend is concrened | 18:37 |
| dstanek | that's for GUI access - what about building tooling? i may really want a list of all 1000 of a customer's projects | 18:37 |
| dolphm | clu_: quite a bit https://github.com/openstack/identity-api/blob/master/v3/src/markdown/identity-api-v3.md | 18:37 |
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| ayoung | LDAP in general supportes pretty good filtering, but I have not tested our backend code with it. I have a pretty hefty user-DB I can load it up with and see... | 18:38 |
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| dstanek | i think filtering is a better solution in most cases, but can't replace everything | 18:38 |
| bknudson | we could do approximate filtering with LDAP | 18:38 |
| lbragstad | I thought jamielennox had a presentation at the summit about performance with LDAP? | 18:38 |
| ayoung | dstanek, why would you want that paged? | 18:38 |
| gyee | ayoung, LDAP is supposed to be optimize for lookup, if your LDAP is slow, always blame the configuration :) | 18:38 |
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| ayoung | gyee, I hear HP is really good at optimizing slow LDAP queries from Keystone. | 18:39 |
| jamielennox | lbragstad: wasn't me | 18:39 |
| henrynash | ayoung: :-) | 18:39 |
| ayoung | lbragstad, it was GoDaddy, AD != LDAP | 18:39 |
| gyee | ayoung, I'd blame HP LDAP too | 18:39 |
| dstanek | ayoung: paging is usually easier for the server (especially in cases where the process could monopolize the CPU) and it makes caching possible | 18:39 |
| clu_ | henrynash, dolphm: wow, did not know that :) nice | 18:39 |
| lbragstad | ayoung: jamielennox yep | 18:39 |
| nkinder | filtering support/performance in LDAP is generally good, but you need to do things like define indexes on the LDAP servers (which is implementation dependent) | 18:40 |
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| dolphm | 20 minutes, 2 topics remaining :) | 18:40 |
| bknudson | timeboxing | 18:40 |
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| ayoung | clu_, to be clear, pagination with LDAP is a bad thing... | 18:40 |
| henrynash | clu_: …..and for SQL we pass the filter into the SQL query itself, but for ldap (today) we post-process the filer | 18:40 |
| ayoung | LDAP does not return results in the same order for the same query | 18:41 |
| ayoung | so you need to maintain a connection...which quickly can overwhelm an LDAP server | 18:41 |
| bknudson | SQL doesn't have to return results in the same order | 18:41 |
| dolphm | henrynash: but we expose the desired filtering to the ldap driver, which ignores them, correct? | 18:41 |
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| gyee | for pagination, its really about API consistency, implementation is a different matter | 18:41 |
| henrynash | dolphm: yes | 18:41 |
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| henrynash | bknudson: you can ensure that by asking sqlalchemy to enforce that | 18:42 |
| dolphm | so, it sounds like we need to write a -spec for ldap filtering, and pursue the cross-project api conventions repo (ping me later if you'd like to be involved in that effort) | 18:42 |
| dolphm | #topic Split of middleware (auth_token, etc) out of keystoneclient to separate repo | 18:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Split of middleware (auth_token, etc) out of keystoneclient to separate repo (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:42 | |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: o/ | 18:42 |
| gyee | dolphm, ++ | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | o/ | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | so i think generally speaking there is a desire to split the middleware from ksc. | 18:42 |
| dstanek | dolphm: pick me, pick me! | 18:42 |
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| ayoung | Don't do it! | 18:42 |
| ayoung | You will have to change everyones config file | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, there has been more and more requests to make this happen. | 18:43 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg: someone also suggested building two packages out of the same repo, with different deps... is that viable? i feel like that's been shot down by infra before | 18:43 |
| ayoung | what is the justification for that request? | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, i don't think that works well | 18:43 |
| dolphm | or maybe that was when openstack built its own packages | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, limiting extra requirements for the ksc installs. | 18:43 |
| jamielennox | it can be done via RPM etc, i don't think it works well for pip packages | 18:43 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, ++ | 18:43 |
| dstanek | dolphm: that's a bad idea and a pain long term | 18:43 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: ++ i bet that was it | 18:43 |
| ayoung | that is why the repo is called python-keystoneclient...pip required that | 18:44 |
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| gyee | isn't there an python-openstacksdk repo already, that's for all the clients right? | 18:44 |
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| dolphm | dstanek: fair enough, i'm not advocating for it, just echoing a seemingly lazier solution | 18:44 |
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| jamielennox | so there are two things, 1st you are going to have a circular dependency between the two libs | 18:44 |
| ayoung | lets discuss why...what do you think we are going to limit by splitting auth token from client: | 18:44 |
| dstanek | it would be very confusing me thinks | 18:44 |
| gyee | so keystoneclient, the CRUD part, may eventually end up in there right? | 18:44 |
| jamielennox | 2nd if we are going to make people change configs like that then let's fix it first | 18:44 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, it is to make it so we can release auth_token without KSC as well as limit deps on both sides. | 18:45 |
| ayoung | #link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/python-keystoneclient/tree/keystoneclient/middleware/auth_token.py#n146 | 18:45 |
| jamielennox | this would be the time to get rid of all those deprecations and just general crap | 18:45 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, and i think those two arguments are valid alone. security issue in auth_token, release a new one doesn't affect KSC | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | directly that is. | 18:45 |
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| ayoung | from oslo.config import cfg is used by the CLI and by ATM, so if we split, and drop the CLI, we drop that one | 18:45 |
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| ayoung | from keystoneclient.middleware import memcache_crypt | 18:46 |
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| morganfainberg | the #1 request is to remove memcache from the dep in ksc | 18:46 |
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| ayoung | OK, I can see that | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | i'll be doing that w/ dogpile, but no reason to add dogpile to ksc | 18:46 |
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| bknudson | so ksc can't depend on auth_token? | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, correct. | 18:47 |
| bknudson | because if it does than ksc will still require all the deps | 18:47 |
| ayoung | bknudson, dep should be the other way round | 18:47 |
| bknudson | so we'd copy-paste auth_token rather than import it? | 18:47 |
| bknudson | for backwards-compat | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, ah yeah. | 18:47 |
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| bknudson | or do we import it without the dep? | 18:48 |
| gyee | how do we do that? | 18:48 |
| ayoung | no copy-paste. that bad | 18:48 |
| bknudson | we'd have to attempt to import and fail if it couldn't be imported | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, circular imports = bad. | 18:48 |
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| ayoung | like crossing the streams | 18:48 |
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| ayoung | so this new repo...python-keystonemiddleware? | 18:49 |
| dolphm | just keystonemiddleware i'd assume | 18:49 |
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| bknudson | does it contain the other middleware? | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ++ | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, it could. | 18:49 |
| dolphm | bknudson: yes | 18:49 |
| ayoung | bknudson, yeah, s3 | 18:49 |
| ayoung | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/python-keystoneclient/tree/keystoneclient/middleware | 18:49 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: let's write a spec for this to work out what belongs where if we introduce a new repo? | 18:50 |
| ayoung | There is an ec2 version, too, which I think is still in Keystone | 18:50 |
| bknudson | I think people are still importing s3_token middleware from keystone | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, sounds good | 18:50 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: and by "let's" i mean "you" | 18:50 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, that cross-project section will be long :) | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ++ | 18:50 |
| ayoung | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/keystone/tree/keystone/middleware/ec2_token.py | 18:50 |
| dolphm | #action morganfainberg to write a -spec to introduce keystonemiddleware repo | 18:50 |
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| dolphm | #topic Add LDAP connection pool | 18:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add LDAP connection pool (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:50 | |
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| dolphm | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1320997 | 18:51 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1320997 in keystone "Identity Ldap driver connection pooling" [Undecided,New] | 18:51 |
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| dolphm | gyee: o/ | 18:51 |
| bknudson | I thought this was already proposed. | 18:51 |
| gyee | what do you guys think about this https://pypi.python.org/pypi/ldappool/1.0 | 18:51 |
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| gyee | bknudson, is there a review already? | 18:51 |
| ayoung | So long as it is optional, I think we should provide a way to test out pooling. | 18:52 |
| bknudson | oh, maybe I just saw the bug | 18:52 |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ i recall connection pooling at some point | 18:52 |
| dolphm | bknudson: brand new bug | 18:52 |
| ayoung | the LDAP pooling story might be different for Eventlet and Apache. nkinder ? | 18:52 |
| gyee | k, we have some poc code and it seems to give us 30% improvement | 18:52 |
| dolphm | my googling is not turning up any prior art | 18:52 |
| dolphm | #link https://pypi.python.org/pypi/ldappool/1.0 | 18:53 |
| gyee | only issue is that ldappool doesn't support client cert at the moment | 18:53 |
| nkinder | ayoung: for using httpd to perform auth up front, sssd would handle pooling | 18:53 |
| gyee | but I don't think 2-way SSL is required | 18:53 |
| dolphm | gyee: sounds like an upstream issue that can be solved :) | 18:53 |
| gyee | dolphm, yes | 18:53 |
| ayoung | nkinder, what about existing LDAP approach? | 18:53 |
| nkinder | ldappool is something that Mozilla developed, which is the only Python implementation that I know of | 18:54 |
| gyee | I can do a pull request for ldappool | 18:54 |
| dolphm | nkinder: is it in use? basically zero downloads on pypi | 18:54 |
| nkinder | ayoung: We could have httpd use PAM for auth, which will call into sssd and go against LDAP | 18:54 |
| nkinder | dolphm: I've never seen it used | 18:54 |
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| nkinder | only heard about it via google searching | 18:54 |
| dolphm | worth evaluating at least | 18:55 |
| henrynash | ayoung: you mean support for pooling via our “LDAP driver underneath keystone identity” approach? | 18:55 |
| ayoung | henrynash, yeah | 18:55 |
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| gyee | ayoung, I can make it configurable | 18:55 |
| henrynash | ayoung: which I suspect will contiue to be the standard way for a while | 18:55 |
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| henrynash | standard = most used | 18:56 |
| nkinder | why bother if we can just leverage httpd/sssd? | 18:56 |
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| gyee | nkinder, is apache in devstack for keystone already? | 18:56 |
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| nkinder | I agree with henrynash that the LDAP driver will be the standard way for a while, but the more effort we put into it the less we put towards a better long term approach | 18:56 |
| ayoung | nkinder, cuz we are not there yet. But I agree, that is the right long term approach. | 18:56 |
| nkinder | gyee: yes, I believe so | 18:56 |
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| dolphm | gyee: yes | 18:57 |
| gyee | ayoung, nkinder, I totally agree, but unless we standardize apache for keystone, we need something to improve performance right now | 18:57 |
| henrynash | nkinder: agreed, it wil be a balance, how much to we “backport” to the old way of doing things, standard dev problem! | 18:57 |
| dolphm | i don't think we gate on httpd anywhere, though? | 18:57 |
| ayoung | nkinder, could the OS provide us some sort of LDAP connection pool? | 18:57 |
| nkinder | gyee: APACHE_ENABLED_SERVICES+=key | 18:57 |
| dolphm | nkinder: +++ | 18:57 |
| dstanek | dolphm: afaik we do not | 18:57 |
| nkinder | we should gate on httpd though | 18:58 |
| mfisch | thanks nkinder I was wondering the same | 18:58 |
| ayoung | nkinder, morganfainberg is working on it | 18:58 |
| dolphm | dstanek: that's going to be super important, as we can't currently gate on a federation configuration otherwise | 18:58 |
| nkinder | ayoung: I know | 18:58 |
| nkinder | we should gate on httpd, and we should gate on LDAP | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | nkinder, working on both | 18:58 |
| dolphm | nkinder: ++ | 18:58 |
| henrynash | gyee, dolphm: I think at some point we are going to have to decide if we mandate apache for keystone or not…I’m a little leary of doing it, but I can see the advantages starting to stack up | 18:58 |
| nkinder | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:58 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: link or anything? | 18:58 |
| * dolphm 2 min | 18:59 | |
| mfisch | +1 to gating on LDAP | 18:59 |
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| ayoung | we currently have non voting job | 18:59 |
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| gyee | henrynash, I totally agree | 18:59 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, the LDAP one is not setup yet, working on apache_services now | 18:59 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, we already have a non-vote job | 18:59 |
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| mfisch | enfranchise it | 18:59 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, and compressed tokens should help fix the failures there | 18:59 |
| dolphm | henrynash: i don't see any advantages for *not* using httpd, do you? | 18:59 |
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| dolphm | except for pki tokens being large :) | 18:59 |
| ayoung | check-tempest-dsvm-full-apache-services right morganfainberg ? | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, henrynash, if we mandate httpd, we shoudl ensure we can use unicorn/nginx/uwsgi/etc | 19:00 |
| gyee | I am all for apache | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, henrynash, not just apache. | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, yes | 19:00 |
| henrynash | dolphm: I think it’s more of a configuration in people’s products and/or deploymetns prolems | 19:00 |
| gyee | how soon can we get it in there? | 19:00 |
| bknudson | it's easier to keystone-all than set up apache | 19:00 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg: ++ but i'd like to choose a single container for doc purposes | 19:00 |
| dolphm | and testign | 19:00 |
| ayoung | bknudson, its easier to secure apache than keystone-all, though | 19:00 |
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| dolphm | s/container/server/ | 19:00 |
| dolphm | time! | 19:00 |
| dolphm | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
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| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 20 19:00:54 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
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| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-05-20-18.02.html | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-05-20-18.02.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-05-20-18.02.log.html | 19:01 |
| jeblair | infra people? | 19:01 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, apache would be the default, the rest would be "supported" but done after apache | 19:01 |
| fungi | hey=o! | 19:01 |
| anteaya | o/ | 19:01 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:01 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: ++ | 19:01 |
| mordred_ | o/ | 19:01 |
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| aveiga | hey infra, new face today :) | 19:01 |
| jeblair | aveiga: welcome! | 19:01 |
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| anteaya | hey aveiga | 19:01 |
| jesusaurus | o/ | 19:01 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:01 |
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| ianw | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 20 19:02:01 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-05-06-19.01.txt | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
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| jeblair | clarkb: did you have beer? | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | * clarkb fix tox over beer | 19:02 |
| sc68cal | o/ | 19:02 |
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| clarkb | o/ | 19:02 |
| clarkb | jeblair: well tox is fixed | 19:03 |
| anteaya | yay | 19:03 |
| jeblair | close enough | 19:03 |
| fungi | indeed. it was tox-fixing-beering-maness | 19:03 |
| mordred_ | beer? | 19:03 |
| fungi | madness | 19:03 |
| bcrochet | o/ | 19:03 |
| jesusaurus | clarkb: that implies beer, right? | 19:03 |
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| jeblair | so we're waiting on a tox release, then we can unpin, right? | 19:03 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: correct | 19:03 |
| clarkb | the fix is unreleased but I installed from source and tested with zuul's tox.ini | 19:03 |
| clarkb | and it was happy there | 19:04 |
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| jeblair | cool | 19:04 |
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| jeblair | #topic manage-projects status (mordred) | 19:04 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "manage-projects status (mordred) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:04 | |
| jeblair | so i would have assumed this topic was stale; but fungi found a borked project today | 19:04 |
| mordred_ | yah. I saw that. I'm sad | 19:04 |
| jeblair | sdague thinks there may still be a race around gerrit creating the acl file | 19:05 |
| fungi | unfortunately syslog rotated into oblivion long enough ago that i can't see if it logged a reason | 19:05 |
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| mordred_ | maybe we figure out an acl retry | 19:05 |
| mordred_ | ? | 19:05 |
| jeblair | we have a lot of new projects coming up. can someone keep an eye on the logs for them? | 19:05 |
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| fungi | that was the leading suggestion i thinkl | 19:06 |
| mordred_ | ++ | 19:06 |
| fungi | jeblair: yeah, i'll try to keep tabs on anything which might touch an acl | 19:06 |
| anteaya | how close is sdague improved error handling patch to merging? | 19:06 |
| fungi | but the more eyes the better | 19:06 |
| anteaya | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94196/ | 19:07 |
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| anteaya | that might improve logged info | 19:07 |
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| fungi | the sooner someone can spot a failed project creation symptom, the better chance we have of spotting the cause | 19:07 |
| jeblair | well, since my comments were ignored, not immediately | 19:08 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: I thought your comments were handled | 19:09 |
| * anteaya looks at the patch again | 19:09 | |
| clarkb | it now returns true or false in that one place and the logic was flipped | 19:09 |
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| jeblair | my _inline_ comment was handled, not my cover letter | 19:09 |
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| jeblair | anyway... | 19:10 |
| jeblair | we want more data though we think we know what the problem is | 19:10 |
| anteaya | so sdague is not here right now, maybe we can pick this up when he returns | 19:10 |
| jeblair | anyone want to go ahead and fix the problem? | 19:11 |
| clarkb | I'm not sure I understand the problem otherwise I would volunteer | 19:11 |
| fungi | i can work up a patch | 19:11 |
| clarkb | cool | 19:11 |
| fungi | #action fungi add a wait for acl file creation on gerrit project initialization | 19:12 |
| jeblair | #topic OpenStack specific data in openstack_project module bug 1319746 (pleia2) | 19:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack specific data in openstack_project module bug 1319746 (pleia2) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:12 | |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1319746 in openstack-ci "review.pp manifest contains specific site data for SSLCertificate attributes" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1319746 | 19:12 |
| rcarrillocruz | #info i'd like to raise that openstack_project manifests contain quite a bit of site specific data, e.g. hostnames. I noticed this while working on a gerrit-launchpad integration issue, had to tweak quite a lot of things and go back and forth between several layers of manifests to get a sane 'review' server in a VM. IMHO, the manifests need cleanup to put as much site specific stuff as possible in site.pp and leave opensta | 19:12 |
| jeblair | rcarrillocruz: i think you hit the irc 512 byte limit at "leave opensta"... | 19:13 |
| pleia2 | we've had some discussion about it in the bug too, so it's worth a quick look if you haven't read it already | 19:13 |
| rcarrillocruz | #info IMHO, the manifests need cleanup to put as much site specific stuff as possible in site.pp and leave openstack_project/manifests/* stuff as generic as possible. I volunteer for this task, happy to help... | 19:13 |
| clarkb | so I am a bit resistant to that specifically because openstack_project is intended on being site specific | 19:13 |
| clarkb | site.pp doesn't scale. That said a lot of the specific things we do can be generalized instead | 19:14 |
| jeblair | though we have had a not-fully-consistent trend to put hostnames specifically in site.pp to make it easier for dev/testing our exact setup | 19:14 |
| rcarrillocruz | then we should change the docs, since we say that openstack_project/modules/* shouldn't contain site specific stuff | 19:14 |
| clarkb | we say that? | 19:14 |
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| jesusaurus | i think that openstack_project is exactly where the site-specific bits belong | 19:14 |
| rcarrillocruz | http://ci.openstack.org/sysadmin.html | 19:14 |
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| fungi | "no site-specific configuration such as hostnames or credentials should be included in these files" | 19:15 |
| clarkb | ya I don't know that I compeltely agree with that | 19:15 |
| jeblair | and "This is what lets you easily test an OpenStack project manifest on your own server." | 19:15 |
| fungi | #link http://ci.openstack.org/sysadmin.html#making-a-change-in-puppet | 19:15 |
| phschwartz | I would love to see things like hostnames at least be moved to vars so they can be replaced using standard puppet methods. It would allow me to stop maintaining patches to config for our internal env and just set the vars. | 19:15 |
| clarkb | I agree with the intent which is to make things easily testable but that should be achieved by pushing things further down in the stack | 19:15 |
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| jesusaurus | ++ | 19:16 |
| clarkb | anyways no need to derail the meeting. This is definitely a good subject to become more consistent on | 19:16 |
| fungi | concur that we still have too much useful logic living in modules/openstack_project which should get moved into the separate modules | 19:16 |
| jeblair | that may be, but we're not there yet, and our current/old plan, flawed as it is, was at least a workable plan... | 19:17 |
| fungi | as optional behaviors or whatever | 19:17 |
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| jeblair | i think rcarrillocruz correctly identifies some things out of alignment with that, and we can probably accept changes to clean that up a bit | 19:17 |
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| jeblair | especially if they make it easier to further refactor in the future (and don't interfere with it) | 19:18 |
| fungi | some of that may also dovetail into AaronGr's work | 19:18 |
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| jeblair | and jesusaurus's | 19:19 |
| rcarrillocruz | fungi: which work? is it a blueprint or something linkable? | 19:19 |
| pleia2 | yeah AaronGr has commented on the associated review to that bug: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/93687/ | 19:19 |
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| jeblair | i think the upshot is that openstack_project holds a lot of "site specific" stuff in the since that it only makes sense if you are developing the openstack project... | 19:20 |
| jeblair | but "site specific" in terms of the exact hostnames, keys, etc, should be in the next layer up so that we can actually test things on something other than the prod servers | 19:21 |
| jeblair | at least, until we have a better plan | 19:21 |
| clarkb | yup | 19:21 |
| jeblair | which i hope will end up in the specs repo soon :) | 19:21 |
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| jesusaurus | yeah, sounds like we have two different definitions of "site specific", one applies to site.pp and the other to the openstack_project module | 19:22 |
| fungi | rcarrillocruz: looks like they might have gotten auto-abandoned | 19:22 |
| jesusaurus | we should better define that | 19:22 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:abandoned+owner:%22Aaron+Greengrass+%253Caaron%2540greenbtn.com%253E%22,n,z | 19:22 |
| jeblair | rcarrillocruz: best thing might be to search for patches authored by AaronGr and jesusaurus | 19:22 |
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| jeblair | oh there you go | 19:22 |
| rcarrillocruz | ah ok | 19:23 |
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| clarkb | jesusaurus: ++ | 19:23 |
| rcarrillocruz | the way i see openstack_project and the way I think it should be is that it contains only layout stuff that specific to openstack project | 19:23 |
| fungi | a lot of the massive refactoring was put on hold while we got puppetboard up and running | 19:23 |
| rcarrillocruz | anything that are paths, hostnames, etc | 19:23 |
| fungi | but should be open season now | 19:23 |
| rcarrillocruz | should either be resolved by facter , passed on via hiera or at the last resort have a sane default in the parameterized class in question | 19:24 |
| jesusaurus | rcarrillocruz: ++ | 19:24 |
| rcarrillocruz | i think it would also be beneficial to have some initial docs on how to setup a hiera for local development | 19:24 |
| jeblair | rcarrillocruz: so i think it's okay to go ahead and fix straightforward deviations like the one that triggered this | 19:24 |
| rcarrillocruz | k | 19:25 |
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| jeblair | rcarrillocruz: since jesusaurus and AaronGr have ideas on refactoring, you might want to work with them on that; hopefully we can do so over a spec soon | 19:25 |
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| jesusaurus | rcarrillocruz: i was thinking that instead of setting up a dev hiera, it would make sense for the hiera calls to have sane dev default values | 19:25 |
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| jeblair | (i mean, for larger refactoring) | 19:25 |
| rcarrillocruz | i'm happy to help, so i will look into it and open bugs on this topic, will chat with AaronGr and jesusaurus about it | 19:25 |
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| anteaya | rcarrillocruz: stories | 19:26 |
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| anteaya | since the infra-specs repo uses storyboard | 19:26 |
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| anteaya | storyboard.openstack.org | 19:26 |
| jeblair | anteaya: that's going to be a little tricky since config doesn't use storyboard yet; we might be able to flip it though. we should take a look. | 19:26 |
| rcarrillocruz | anteaya: can you link me on that? not familiar on this stories workflow, i assume is some agile methodology stuff you use | 19:26 |
| rcarrillocruz | gotcha | 19:26 |
| rcarrillocruz | thanks | 19:26 |
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| anteaya | rcarrillocruz: we are just starting, as jeblair says there maybe some gotchas | 19:27 |
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| anteaya | this will be a guniea pig situation | 19:27 |
| jeblair | yup. we're making this up as we go along. :) | 19:27 |
| jeblair | #topic Addition of elastic-recheck link 93610 & 93608 (pleia2) | 19:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Addition of elastic-recheck link 93610 & 93608 (pleia2) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:27 | |
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| pleia2 | this should be quick, is it ok to have both rechecks commands on status.o.o for now so it's discoverable until we rm Rechecks? | 19:28 |
| pleia2 | it's been 8 months or so since the page went live and it's still not easy to find | 19:28 |
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| pleia2 | s/commands/links | 19:28 |
| fungi | jogo: sdague: ^ ? | 19:28 |
| jeblair | i've resisted this in the past because i think we should only have one link | 19:28 |
| fungi | (noting that sdague may not be around just yet) | 19:29 |
| jesusaurus | i think it makes sense for status.o.o to have links to both rechecks and elastic-recheck | 19:29 |
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| jeblair | i disagree -- the rechecks page needs to die. | 19:29 |
| fungi | i think we should just have it link to elastic-recheck and at the moment the content on the new page is superior enough that it ought to be safe to do so | 19:29 |
| anteaya | yes elastic-recheck is where the love is right now | 19:29 |
| jeblair | fungi: i agree but sdague does not, he still wants the old page | 19:30 |
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| jeblair | so here's the thing -- all the docs about what to do when your patch fails say to use the rechecks page and say nothing about e-r | 19:30 |
| fungi | do we have a roadmap of what's still needed? | 19:30 |
| anteaya | can recheck be a link on the elastic-recheck page? | 19:30 |
| jeblair | which makes the rechecks page the current process | 19:30 |
| anteaya | oh | 19:30 |
| jeblair | i don't want that to be the case, but as long as it is, it's the thing that should be on the navigation bar | 19:31 |
| anteaya | what is involved in changing the docs to point to elastic-recheck? | 19:31 |
| anteaya | do we know? | 19:31 |
| fungi | anteaya: changes submitted in gerrit, and wiki edits | 19:31 |
| jeblair | anteaya: yes, there was a summit session about it | 19:31 |
| anteaya | sorry | 19:31 |
| jeblair | it was an infra session. was i the only one of us there? | 19:31 |
| rockyg | should be pretty easy if it's just a link and some text | 19:31 |
| pleia2 | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-summit-elastic-recheck for reference | 19:32 |
| fungi | i was there... just trying to dig up the etherpad now to referesh my memory | 19:32 |
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| fungi | ahh, thanks | 19:32 |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-summit-elastic-recheck | 19:32 |
| jeblair | "sdague: Analysis of existing data for usefuleness of recheck bug # comments / filing "recheck bugs"" is the relevant thing | 19:32 |
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| jeblair | if sdague comes back and says it's useless, we just switch everything over | 19:33 |
| pleia2 | ok | 19:33 |
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| anteaya | so line 26 in the etherpad | 19:33 |
| jeblair | if he says it's important, then we need to do more work | 19:33 |
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| fungi | yup, so the stuff under the "Replace existing /rechecks/ page" bullet item essentially | 19:33 |
| pleia2 | but in the meantime while we do more work, I kind of want to see ER in the header along with the other | 19:33 |
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| jeblair | i really hope he says it's useless, and we can just drop it, and even drop the "recheck bug ###" syntax. | 19:33 |
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| anteaya | pleia2: feels like that isn't a decision we can make right now | 19:34 |
| rockyg | pleia2: ++ | 19:34 |
| clarkb | jeblair: agreed | 19:34 |
| pleia2 | anteaya: yes, this is after we hear from sdague :) | 19:34 |
| anteaya | pleia2: kk | 19:34 |
| jeblair | pleia2: i'm really opposed to exposing the complexity of two systems to all of our developers. i just want one or the other, and a plan to get there. | 19:34 |
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| jeblair | the lack of a navigation link is a constant reminder that the new system is "experimental and not in production". | 19:35 |
| fungi | i agree with the one-link sentiment | 19:35 |
| pleia2 | alright | 19:35 |
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| jeblair | #topic Single url for Third Party information (anteaya) | 19:36 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Single url for Third Party information (anteaya) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:36 | |
| anteaya | so in the summit session on third party testing | 19:36 |
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| anteaya | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-infra-improving-3rd-party-testing | 19:36 |
| anteaya | we made it a requirement for ci accounts to have a wikipage | 19:37 |
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| anteaya | it would be nice if we could decide where these links could be indexed | 19:37 |
| anteaya | and also various programs have documentation around third party testing | 19:37 |
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| aveiga | So I had some chats with folks about 3rd Party CI, is there any objecetion to running an environment for reasons other than testing out a product? We'd like to run tests against an IPv6-enabled environment | 19:37 |
| anteaya | it would be great if we had one url for both | 19:37 |
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| anteaya | aveiga: we are addressing a single url for third party right now | 19:38 |
| aveiga | sorry | 19:38 |
| anteaya | it is okay, open discussion is coming up | 19:38 |
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| krtaylor | anteaya, both 3rd party service account wiki pages and ? | 19:38 |
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| jeblair | anteaya: i think we should have a common prefix in the wiki; so wiki/ThirdPartySystems/NameOfSystem | 19:38 |
| clarkb | ++ | 19:39 |
| anteaya | I like that | 19:39 |
| rcarrillocruz | ++ | 19:39 |
| jeblair | i think you can easily get lists of things like that | 19:39 |
| rockyg | ++ | 19:39 |
| clarkb | then the requirements we formalized should go in infra docs so they re reviewed | 19:39 |
| anteaya | okay | 19:39 |
| fungi | yep, that all sounds great | 19:39 |
| krtaylor | lgtm | 19:39 |
| anteaya | do we want a single url for indexing all the wikipages? | 19:39 |
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| fungi | including the acl changes we discussed (which means researching what projects different systems are voting on changes for as well) | 19:39 |
| anteaya | folks in the third party meeting yesterday indicated that would be favourable to them | 19:40 |
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| fungi | anteaya: the prefix page should solve that | 19:40 |
| clarkb | yup so wiki/ThirdPartySystems/ would be the index | 19:40 |
| fungi | anteaya: i'm pretty sure there's a mediawiki macro you can add to the parent page to list all child pages | 19:40 |
| anteaya | oh yes, I see it now, thanks | 19:40 |
| rockyg | Agreed on prefix page asindex | 19:40 |
| anteaya | cool, i will look at that | 19:40 |
| jeblair | anteaya: do you want to mock that up, maybe create a template page for people to copy? | 19:40 |
| jeblair | anteaya: then we can take a look at that before we send it out? | 19:41 |
| anteaya | might need to bug Ryan_Lane | 19:41 |
| rockyg | It's real easy. I could help. | 19:41 |
| anteaya | jeblair: I like it, I will mock it up on an etherpad | 19:41 |
| rockyg | ++ | 19:41 |
| jeblair | anteaya: oh i think you should just use the wiki | 19:41 |
| anteaya | rockyg: thanks that would be great | 19:41 |
| fungi | in fact, it's possible to create a mediawiki template (not just a template page) which can get included into a new page as a directive to prepopulate it | 19:41 |
| jeblair | (it is a wiki after all) | 19:41 |
| anteaya | oh I can do that too | 19:41 |
| krtaylor | +1 wiki | 19:41 |
| anteaya | fungi: cool, I will look into that, I didn't know that | 19:41 |
| fungi | used to do that all the time at $oldjob | 19:41 |
| anteaya | cool, I will bug you | 19:42 |
| anteaya | I think I have enough to make me happy | 19:42 |
| anteaya | thanks | 19:42 |
| fungi | i'll have to look the syntax back up, but it's great when you've got specific information you need people to put in new pages | 19:42 |
| * anteaya nods | 19:42 | |
| anteaya | sounds like ti will fit the bill here | 19:42 |
| jeblair | i think we should get the wiki page/templates in order, update our docs with our new reqs and link in any project specific pages from the overview wiki page. then when all of that is in order, send an announcement to the 3rd party folks asking them to update to the new requirements. | 19:42 |
| anteaya | I like it | 19:43 |
| jeblair | (i think that will be the most orderly way to handle this). | 19:43 |
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| anteaya | I will try to get our stuff drafted up this week for review | 19:43 |
| fungi | sounds good to me | 19:43 |
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| jeblair | anteaya: thanks | 19:43 |
| jeblair | #action anteaya work on third party wiki pages and infra docs | 19:43 |
| jeblair | #topic infra-specs repo | 19:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "infra-specs repo (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:44 | |
| jeblair | I'm abusing my position as meeting chair to insert a last minute topic; but it's important ;) | 19:44 |
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| jeblair | we're adoping a specs model as many of the other projects are | 19:45 |
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| anteaya | #link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/infra-specs/ | 19:45 |
| jeblair | there's a change here with the initial template: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94440/ | 19:45 |
| jeblair | give that a once over and see if there's anything missing... | 19:45 |
| jeblair | we have a lot of unique concerns that other projects don't have (we run servers!) | 19:45 |
| clarkb | will do | 19:45 |
| jesusaurus | what exactly is the specs model? | 19:46 |
| jeblair | and we will be the first ones trying to use this with storyboard | 19:46 |
| fungi | jeblair: was 94440 cookie-cuttered from the specs template as a starting point? | 19:46 |
| jeblair | jesusaurus: great question! | 19:46 |
| fungi | (mostly just curious) | 19:46 |
| jeblair | fungi: yes, but heavily altered | 19:46 |
| fungi | cool | 19:46 |
| jeblair | jesusaurus: basically, it's early design review of proposed enhancements | 19:46 |
| jeblair | jesusaurus: so instead of showing up with a bunch of code and then having people say "why didn't you ...?" | 19:47 |
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| rcarrillocruz | jeblair: how specs relates to blueprints? | 19:47 |
| fungi | which we already do a lot of in various ad-hoc manners (lp bug comments, irc logs, et cetera), so this actually should be easier overall for keeping track of what we decide | 19:47 |
| jeblair | jesusaurus: we get everyone on the same page by writing up a detailed proposal before starting major work | 19:47 |
| rcarrillocruz | they seem similar to me | 19:47 |
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| jeblair | rcarrillocruz: other openstack projects are using blueprints to track the implementation progress of specs | 19:48 |
| jeblair | rcarrillocruz: we'll be using storyboard to do that | 19:48 |
| fungi | rcarrillocruz: blueprints are generally fairly light on detail, and expect you to link to somewhere you've published the actual detail | 19:48 |
| fungi | and these would be that "somewhere" | 19:48 |
| rcarrillocruz | gotcha, thanks for the clarification | 19:48 |
| jeblair | rcarrillocruz: (the intent is that the rest of openstack will use storyboard when it's more robust, we're trying to use it early to work out the bugs) | 19:49 |
| jesusaurus | jeblair: cool. this sounds similar to the DESIGN file i try to put at the top level of my personal projects | 19:49 |
| jeblair | jesusaurus: quite likely so | 19:49 |
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| jeblair | though these are targeted at specific feature enhancements, not overall project philosophy | 19:49 |
| fungi | the hope is that if we're doing this right, it shouldn't be any more work than we currently put into discussing designs (potentially even less work) | 19:50 |
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| fungi | but better aggregated into a workflow we already use for similar tasks | 19:50 |
| fungi | and easier to publish consistently too | 19:50 |
| jeblair | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/qa-specs/tree/ | 19:50 |
| jeblair | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/nova-specs/tree/ | 19:50 |
| jeblair | those are the earliest adopters, so you can see some real examples there | 19:50 |
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| jeblair | ooh, we should add documentation impact... | 19:51 |
| jeblair | fungi: ++ | 19:51 |
| anteaya | you also want to talk about specs naming conventions | 19:51 |
| sc68cal | uh oh better shovel my blueprints from lp/tempest into qa-specs | 19:52 |
| anteaya | the more you know | 19:52 |
| fungi | i'd like to see a security impact too (for similar reasons we have it in specs for other projects) | 19:52 |
| clarkb | ++ | 19:52 |
| fungi | still hunting for where that gets stipulated | 19:52 |
| anteaya | it isn't in that patchset | 19:53 |
| clarkb | we can move that to review of the initial template :) | 19:53 |
| fungi | clarkb: agreed | 19:53 |
| fungi | (and to answer my question, i guess it would go into template.rst) | 19:54 |
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| rockyg | Correct. What about testing dependencies? | 19:54 |
| sc68cal | Hey, aveiga and I were hoping to get a chance to talk ipv6 - know that things are a bit hectic and bust | 19:54 |
| sc68cal | *busy | 19:54 |
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| anteaya | did we lose jeblair? | 19:55 |
| sc68cal | but we sort of got ping-ponged over to this meeting from yesterday's third party | 19:55 |
| rockyg | Course, I'll just leave a comment on the spec for the spec.... | 19:55 |
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| jeblair_ | ugh | 19:55 |
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| jeblair | #topic project renames | 19:55 |
| jeblair | anyone want to schedule a gerrit downtime to deal with the accumulated backlog of renames? | 19:55 |
| jeblair | maybe this friday? | 19:55 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "project renames (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:55 | |
| clarkb | poor jeblair | 19:55 |
| jeblair_ | that was from 5 mins ago :( | 19:56 |
| clarkb | I will be around friday and can do downtime. Weekend is a holiday weekend though so bad for me | 19:56 |
| fungi | i could do it friday afternoon edt, but have an errand to knock out in the morning | 19:56 |
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| clarkb | fungi: cool we can do it then | 19:56 |
| jeblair | sounds good | 19:56 |
| anteaya | I'm not much help during project renames but I will be around Friday aft | 19:56 |
| fungi | and yes, having people over this weekend for cookout stuff, but could probably work around that if needed | 19:56 |
| jeblair | i'll put together an email then | 19:56 |
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| jeblair | #topic open discussion | 19:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:56 | |
| clarkb | aveiga: sc68cal whats up | 19:57 |
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| sc68cal | OK so quickly | 19:57 |
| mordred | aveiga: I don't think there is any specific requirement that 3rd party testing is only used for products BUT... | 19:57 |
| zaro | are we going to disable drafts? | 19:57 |
| clarkb | zaro: yes, I will draft an email today | 19:57 |
| mordred | I believe we'd love to test ipv6 in the main gate (although I may be wrong) | 19:57 |
| jeblair | sc68cal: so the general idea is that only things that physically _can't_ run in our upstream testing should be tested in a third party system. | 19:57 |
| clarkb | and we can do more testing of it. disabling them does not require a downtime so we can do it whenever | 19:58 |
| aveiga | mordred: we'd like to make sure the tests don't break gate first | 19:58 |
| fungi | aveiga: as far as ipv6-specific testing, is there anything you need tested which we should be testing upstream? do you have some details on what you're wanting to do? | 19:58 |
| aveiga | hence 3rd party | 19:58 |
| sc68cal | We want to start doing a spike to help get more v6 tests in Tempest on the neutron side, as well as have a comcast Ci system that has our network layout | 19:58 |
| jeblair | sc68cal, mordred: and yeah, sounds like something we should test upstream. | 19:58 |
| jeblair | aveiga: we have a great way of bootstrapping new tests | 19:58 |
| aveiga | offering it up since we have a prod setup, plus a lab | 19:58 |
| jeblair | aveiga: http://ci.openstack.org/test-infra-requirements.html#test-run-styles | 19:58 |
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| sc68cal | since parts of Neutron are dependent on the physical network layout | 19:58 |
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| aveiga | we need to point out that current IPv6 patches won't work with an l3 setup though | 19:59 |
| aveiga | they need a provider net | 19:59 |
| aveiga | until the patches land to support l3 agent | 19:59 |
| fungi | sc68cal: well, for our tests neutron is running within a vm along with the rest of devstack, so we can build out the virtual network devstack sits on however is needed to exercise that | 19:59 |
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| sc68cal | fungi: true - but we have a deployment model where the network is not virtual | 19:59 |
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| sc68cal | uses a hardware switch + provider network api ext | 20:00 |
| sc68cal | So that's the use case we'd use 3rd party ci to cover | 20:00 |
| fungi | sc68cal: right, so a dependency on some specific hardware would make third-party testing a necessity | 20:00 |
| fungi | since what you're testing is how openstack works with that hardware | 20:00 |
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| clarkb | however we should be testing ipv6 upstream anyways | 20:00 |
| aveiga | this is why we'd like to run it as 3rd party until all patches land | 20:00 |
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| jeblair | sc68cal: however, i think we should really focus on upstream testing here -- we should be gating on this sort of thing | 20:00 |
| anteaya | we are at time | 20:00 |
| clarkb | ++ | 20:00 |
| sc68cal | jeblair: agree - we are attempting to make 99% upstream | 20:00 |
| anteaya | can we move to the -infra channel and continue? | 20:00 |
| sc68cal | and our special 1% in 3rd party | 20:01 |
| fungi | aveiga: sc68cal: we can move to #opensatck-infra | 20:01 |
| aveiga | jeblair: clarkb agreed, but until the RA daemon patches land you need something to initiate addressing | 20:01 |
| aveiga | ok | 20:01 |
| sc68cal | k | 20:01 |
| fungi | er, #openstack-infra | 20:01 |
| jeblair | thanks! | 20:01 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 20 20:01:24 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-05-20-19.02.html | 20:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-05-20-19.02.txt | 20:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-05-20-19.02.log.html | 20:01 |
| rcarrillocruz | thanks guys | 20:01 |
| rcarrillocruz | ttyl | 20:01 |
| ttx | hola | 20:01 |
| jeblair | o/ | 20:01 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:01 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:01 |
| mikal | Hi | 20:01 |
| zehicle_at_dell | o/ | 20:01 |
| devananda | o/ | 20:01 |
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| ttx | russellb, markmc, annegentle, mordred, vishy, jaypipes, dhellmann : around ? | 20:02 |
| ttx | dhellmann is excused | 20:02 |
| jaypipes | o/ | 20:02 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | OK, that is quorum | 20:02 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 20 20:02:41 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:02 |
| ttx | Here is our agenda for today: | 20:02 |
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| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:03 |
| ttx | david-lyle: around? | 20:03 |
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| david-lyle | ttx: o/ | 20:03 |
| ttx | #topic Integrated projects and new requirements: Gap analysis for Horizon | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Integrated projects and new requirements: Gap analysis for Horizon (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| ttx | david-lyle prepared a gap analysis: | 20:03 |
| ttx | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/horizon-gap-analysis | 20:03 |
| ttx | I picked Horizon on short notice, as i don't expect it to raise major issues | 20:03 |
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| * mordred giggles | 20:04 | |
| vishy | o/ | 20:04 |
| ttx | but stil a few interesting things in there | 20:05 |
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| jeblair | so the note about "Split of repo planned into toolkit and django application." is nice because it's one of the things that makes horizon difficult to deal with from an infra pov (having 2 projects in 1 repo requires special one-off tooling) | 20:05 |
| ttx | #info Scope needs to be documented | 20:05 |
| annegentle_ | Actually horizon still needs a mission statement right? | 20:05 |
| david-lyle | annegentle_: yes | 20:05 |
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| ttx | #info Major architectural change planned: split of repo into toolkit and django app | 20:06 |
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| david-lyle | the repo essentially already contains two distinct pieces in one place | 20:06 |
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| sdague | for those of us less familiar with horizon code base, what's the toolkit contain roughly? | 20:06 |
| david-lyle | this is more a formalization of that split | 20:06 |
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| jaypipes | david-lyle: timeframe around that split? | 20:07 |
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| david-lyle | the toolkit is the widgets and framework for the dashboards, panels, tables, etc | 20:07 |
| ttx | #info Refresh of horizon-coresec needed | 20:07 |
| jeblair | Also, django apparently necessitates non-standard translation tooling | 20:07 |
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| ttx | That's all I spotted from the doc... TC members, feel free to add more #info | 20:08 |
| david-lyle | the openstack_dashboard component is the actual django application that implements the toolkit | 20:08 |
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| david-lyle | jeblair: I don't have admin on that, missed in transition | 20:08 |
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| annegentle_ | #info Nice-to-have: listing of API calls not available in GUI per service | 20:08 |
| david-lyle | jaypipes: juno-1 to juno-2 | 20:08 |
| david-lyle | we've been planning it since the icehouse summit, but got delayed | 20:09 |
| ttx | david-lyle: is horizon tested in the gate, does that make even sense ? Or is selenium/unittesting considered enough due to the consumer position ? | 20:09 |
| annegentle_ | david-lyle: I'd also like to see a statement in your scope about the addition timing of integrated projects | 20:09 |
| jaypipes | david-lyle: k, thx | 20:09 |
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| david-lyle | ttx: Horizon has one tempest job, that is a selenium test that tests login | 20:10 |
| ttx | david-lyle: ok | 20:10 |
| david-lyle | other than that it's purely unit test and selenium | 20:10 |
| ttx | ack | 20:10 |
| david-lyle | beyond that we have started building an integration test framework and can run against devstack | 20:10 |
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| david-lyle | we want to grow the test suite there and maybe eventually tie it into the gate, as we are uniquely positioned to insure non-breaking changes in the python-*clients | 20:11 |
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| * mordred is in support of that | 20:11 | |
| jaypipes | ++ | 20:11 |
| mordred | that is - of "ensure non-breaking changes in python-*clients" | 20:12 |
| ttx | mordred: but would you consider that a "gap" ? | 20:12 |
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| david-lyle | that obviously requires some work with infra once we have a better test suite | 20:12 |
| devananda | ++ to integration test framework | 20:12 |
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| mordred | yes. the level to which we've tested horizon thusfar I think is less than any of us are happy about | 20:12 |
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| mordred | but it seems the plans moving forward are good ones | 20:12 |
| zaneb | david-lyle: uniquely? ;) | 20:13 |
| ttx | #info Integration test framework tied to gate | 20:13 |
| mordred | david-lyle: while we're on testing - has anyone done any thinking about testr and horizon? | 20:13 |
| ttx | OK, any other gap ? | 20:13 |
| david-lyle | zaneb: maybe not as uniquely as we used to be, apologies | 20:13 |
| mordred | last time I looked in to it, I gave up and deferred to later | 20:13 |
| zaneb | david-lyle: no worries, I'm just kidding :) | 20:14 |
| devananda | david-lyle: i see the call out for docs on the developer site. what about in openstack-manuals? | 20:14 |
| david-lyle | mordred, we looked into it briefly, there was some issues with nose, but that was early last cycle, we could revisit | 20:14 |
| zaneb | heat has it's own issues with tempest coverage | 20:14 |
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| ttx | zaneb: talking about which... | 20:15 |
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| ttx | Would you be up for next week ? :) | 20:15 |
| mordred | david-lyle: it's not urgent yet - main thing is we _want_ to do some subunit processing in the gate itself, so want to make sure we don't have blocker projects if we get to that point | 20:15 |
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| annegentle_ | devananda: david-lyle: for integration, those are the minimum docs... for a core project also install/config docs (which are in openstack-manuals) | 20:15 |
| ttx | david-lyle: OK, I think we have all gaps documented in #info in the logs | 20:16 |
| markmcclain | +1 to subunit | 20:16 |
| david-lyle | mordred, we'll look again | 20:16 |
| devananda | annegentle_: that's what I thought, but I dont see any mention of those in the etherpad | 20:16 |
| ttx | david-lyle: would be good to have a coverage plan -- how you plan to address those in the future | 20:16 |
| annegentle_ | devananda: yep, because those docs aren't listed as a requirement in this gap analysis | 20:16 |
| devananda | ah | 20:16 |
| ttx | david-lyle: could you prepare one for next week ? | 20:16 |
| zaneb | ttx: you might have to twist my arm ;) | 20:16 |
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| david-lyle | ttx: code coverage? | 20:17 |
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| ttx | david-lyle: no, gap coverage | 20:17 |
| ttx | david-lyle: I listed gaps in #info in the meeting logs | 20:17 |
| david-lyle | ttx: sure | 20:17 |
| ttx | david-lyle: would be good to have a clear action plan on addressing those | 20:18 |
| ttx | See https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee/Neutron_Gap_Coverage for an example | 20:18 |
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| ttx | TC members: any other remark on that topic ? Other gaps ? | 20:18 |
| david-lyle | absolutely | 20:18 |
| markmcclain | my favorite line "Dashboard would be circular and thus frowned upon." | 20:19 |
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| jeblair | ttx: did you note the non-standard tooling due to combined projects as a gap? | 20:19 |
| ttx | jeblair: nope, be my guest :) | 20:20 |
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| jeblair | #info Non-standard test/packaging/translation tooling due to combined projects in one repo | 20:20 |
| ttx | OK, if that is all, let's move to next topic | 20:20 |
| ttx | david-lyle: thanks! | 20:20 |
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| annegentle_ | thanks david-lyle! | 20:21 |
| david-lyle | my pleasure | 20:21 |
| mikal | Agreed, thanks for coming along | 20:21 |
| zehicle_at_dell | o/ | 20:21 |
| ttx | on very short notice | 20:21 |
| ttx | #topic Defcore update: Scoring the Havana capabilities | 20:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Defcore update: Scoring the Havana capabilities (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:21 | |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: floor is temporarily yours | 20:21 |
| zehicle_at_dell | The board approved the 12 scoring critieria in the last meeting | 20:21 |
| zehicle_at_dell | and that let us post the advisory Havana score card | 20:22 |
| zehicle_at_dell | BUT it's got gaps and requests for TC input all over the place | 20:22 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | so I was hoping to work with you to fill in the gaps | 20:22 |
| zehicle_at_dell | it's likely 2-4 hours of interactive work | 20:22 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: link? | 20:22 |
| zehicle_at_dell | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/CoreCriteria | 20:23 |
| annegentle_ | zehicle_at_dell: what's the deadline? | 20:23 |
| zehicle_at_dell | #link http://robhirschfeld.com/2014/05/08/defcore-scorecard/ | 20:23 |
| zehicle_at_dell | OSCON | 20:23 |
| zehicle_at_dell | we'd like to have the board adopt the Havana sc ore card at OSCON | 20:23 |
| zehicle_at_dell | it's ADVISORY for Havana | 20:24 |
| zehicle_at_dell | but it's sets a trendline for the next I & J | 20:24 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: so you need input on all the 0.5 in TC direction @ https://wiki.openstack.org/w/images/e/e3/DefCore_Capabilities_Scoring.pdf ? Or more ? | 20:24 |
| zehicle_at_dell | and we're still trying to complete those by Paris | 20:24 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, yes | 20:24 |
| zehicle_at_dell | and also filling in the gaps | 20:24 |
| ttx | gap = red lines ? | 20:25 |
| zehicle_at_dell | which will then raise the question of % of designated code in Swift | 20:25 |
| zehicle_at_dell | yes | 20:25 |
| annegentle_ | zehicle_at_dell: so July 20th or earlier than that to allow for formatting? | 20:25 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, the unscored ones in the center | 20:25 |
| zehicle_at_dell | annegentle_, yes | 20:25 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | we could work on formatting earlier | 20:25 |
| annegentle_ | zehicle_at_dell: which? | 20:25 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: I think for the red lines it would be good to get the PTL input first | 20:25 |
| annegentle_ | zehicle_at_dell: July 15? | 20:25 |
| ttx | TC can help with the 0.5 cells | 20:25 |
| zehicle_at_dell | annegentle_, sorry. yes 7/15. | 20:26 |
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| mikal | ttx: which PTL? The Havan PTL of the current one? | 20:26 |
| zehicle_at_dell | annegentle_, we can get the formatting done in parallel | 20:26 |
| ttx | PTLs affectd by red lines are notmyname, jgriffith and mikal | 20:26 |
| ttx | I'd say current one | 20:26 |
| annegentle_ | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/w/images/e/e3/DefCore_Capabilities_Scoring.pdf | 20:26 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, yes. would be good to ahve the relevant PTLs | 20:26 |
| zehicle_at_dell | we are getting help from John D on Swift capabilities grouping too | 20:26 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: if they fail to provide input we can help fill, but that seems like the logical first step | 20:26 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ideally, PTLs would also help on cabilities groups, but that's another topic | 20:27 |
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| annegentle_ | #info Request from board for TC input on the red rows in https://wiki.openstack.org/w/images/e/e3/DefCore_Capabilities_Scoring.pdf by July 15th | 20:27 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, agree. was hoping to have TC formalize the request | 20:27 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: so I suggest we take those 0.5 home as homework for the week, and come up with proposals for next week meeting | 20:27 |
| annegentle_ | zehicle_at_dell: how should the input come back? | 20:27 |
| zehicle_at_dell | +1 | 20:27 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: in the mean time I'll forward your request on red lines to affected PTLs | 20:27 |
| zehicle_at_dell | thanks! | 20:27 |
| annegentle_ | ttx: I don't see 0.5? where is that? | 20:27 |
| zehicle_at_dell | the yellow cells | 20:27 |
| annegentle_ | zehicle_at_dell: ah got it | 20:28 |
| eglynn | zehicle_at_dell: is every project integrated in havana included in that matrix? | 20:28 |
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| ttx | annegentle_: 0.5 cells in Future Tc direction column | 20:28 |
| zehicle_at_dell | #link http://robhirschfeld.com/2014/05/09/openstack-defcore-matrix-cheet-sheet/ | 20:28 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I made a cheat sheet to help understand the grid | 20:28 |
| annegentle_ | zehicle_at_dell: as in, you don't know if the 0.5 is accurate unless you ask more people? | 20:28 |
| zehicle_at_dell | would accept help in formatting to make it easier to understand | 20:28 |
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| eglynn | zehicle_at_dell: (I see orch-stacks for heat, but nothing obvious for ceilometer) | 20:28 |
| zehicle_at_dell | annegentle_, there should be no .5s. those are place holders | 20:28 |
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| ttx | #action TC members to look at 0.5 cells in "future TC direction" column in http://robhirschfeld.com/2014/05/09/openstack-defcore-matrix-cheet-sheet/ and prepare proposed score for next meeting | 20:28 |
| zehicle_at_dell | eglynn, we can only score items with tests | 20:28 |
| annegentle_ | zehicle_at_dell: ok | 20:28 |
| zehicle_at_dell | so no tests = no capabililites | 20:29 |
| ttx | #action ttx to reach to affected PTLs for red lines at https://wiki.openstack.org/w/images/e/e3/DefCore_Capabilities_Scoring.pdf | 20:29 |
| zehicle_at_dell | annegentle_, would be good to have a new perspective to help explain it. I'm way too close to the material | 20:29 |
| zaneb | zehicle_at_dell: how old is the list of tests, just out of curiosity? | 20:29 |
| annegentle_ | zehicle_at_dell: I'm good at asking dumb questions :) | 20:29 |
| ttx | #action ttx to schedule gap coverage plan approval for Horizon for next meeting | 20:29 |
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| eglynn | zehicle_at_dell: based on Tempest coverage? | 20:29 |
| * zaneb was pretty sure we had more than one ;) | 20:29 | |
| zehicle_at_dell | eglynn, yes | 20:29 |
| sdague | zaneb: not in havana :) | 20:30 |
| mordred | zehicle_at_dell: btw - have you guys been tracking branchless-tempest? | 20:30 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | mordred, yes!!! we are planning to move to that | 20:30 |
| mordred | great. it's just a thing that would clearly affect you :) | 20:30 |
| jeblair | there was lots of refstack<->tempest discussion on that topic at the summit | 20:30 |
| zehicle_at_dell | mordred, even for Havana and just suck up that there's some slop | 20:30 |
| ttx | hmm fixing action link | 20:30 |
| zaneb | sdague: oh, Havana was not the one we just released :) | 20:30 |
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| zaneb | too many releases | 20:30 |
| sdague | zehicle_at_dell: have you guys started looking at the differential with branchless at icehouse and havana tempest? | 20:31 |
| ttx | #action TC members to look at 0.5 cells in "future TC direction" column in https://wiki.openstack.org/w/images/e/e3/DefCore_Capabilities_Scoring.pdf and prepare proposed score for next meeting | 20:31 |
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| sdague | because the overall test count did double | 20:31 |
| sdague | and I'm curious how much of the analysis is going to need to rev after those new functional areas come in | 20:31 |
| zehicle_at_dell | sdague, yes but I think thats OT for here | 20:31 |
| eglynn | zehicle_at_dell: another dumb question, why concentrate on Havana as opposed to Icehouse? | 20:31 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | eglynn, so people can digest the impact | 20:32 |
| * eglynn asks as the first ceilometer tempest coverage dates from the Icehouse cycle | 20:32 | |
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| annegentle_ | eglynn: gives deployers some time to test and then act/iterate | 20:32 |
| zehicle_at_dell | eglynn, this needs time to settle and get feedback - it will change commercial products | 20:32 |
| zehicle_at_dell | annegentle_, +1 | 20:32 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | eglynn, turning the ship...slowly | 20:33 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: OK, I think we have an action plan here | 20:33 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: anything else ? | 20:33 |
| zehicle_at_dell | no | 20:33 |
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| eglynn | zehicle_at_dell: fair enough, though /me is eager for the lack of tempest coverage for ceilo in Havana not to exclude ceilo completely from the analysis | 20:34 |
| eglynn | ... just sayin' | 20:34 |
| annegentle_ | eglynn: is your question aimed at whether ceilometer will be considered for core capability? | 20:34 |
| eglynn | annegentle_: yep | 20:34 |
| zehicle_at_dell | eglynn, putting pressure on community to add tests is part of the objective | 20:34 |
| zehicle_at_dell | eglynn, pressure on the commercial interests that pay people | 20:34 |
| zaneb | zehicle_at_dell: perhaps the question is how often do we expect this analysis to be revised? | 20:34 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | zaneb, every release | 20:35 |
| zaneb | ok | 20:35 |
| vishy | eglynn: is there a subset of ceilo api that is user facing? | 20:35 |
| eglynn | zehicle_at_dell: k, got it ... we plan to expand this further over Juno | 20:35 |
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| zaneb | but with a 6 month lag? | 20:35 |
| ttx | eglynn, zaneb: feel free to continue discussion with zehicle off-meeting | 20:35 |
| zaneb | sure | 20:35 |
| eglynn | vishy: the API is in a sense, consumed by the metering dashboard for example | 20:35 |
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| eglynn | ttx: roger that! | 20:35 |
| zehicle_at_dell | zaneb, no. we want to be zero day. We are trying to get to 0. will hopefully be there for K if not J | 20:35 |
| zaneb | ok, cool :) | 20:35 |
| ttx | #topic New requirements | 20:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New requirements (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:36 | |
| vishy | eglynn: seems like the surface is pretty small for users. Mostly used by admins operators | 20:36 |
| ttx | * add upgrade expectations (https://review.openstack.org/87234) | 20:36 |
| eglynn | vishy: fair point | 20:36 |
| zehicle_at_dell | thanks everyone!' | 20:36 |
| eglynn | zehicle_at_dell: thank you sir! | 20:36 |
| ttx | This one could need another +1. There was a comment from lifeless tat was a -1 but he left the TC | 20:36 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: thx! | 20:36 |
| sdague | ttx: I think lifeless and I are actually at violent agreement on the idea, it was a language clarity question | 20:37 |
| ttx | so now it's a random comment, but his question should still be adressed | 20:37 |
| ttx | ok | 20:37 |
| sdague | so basically I'd see if people find his language or mine more clear | 20:37 |
| sdague | and I'll propose with whatever people believe | 20:37 |
| ttx | ok, so all make a last pass on this one, will approve if it gets 7 +1s | 20:37 |
| sdague | I think mine wasn't legally sealed, but I think less confusing | 20:37 |
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| lifeless | sdague: agreed | 20:37 |
| ttx | or more exactly..; if it still has 7 +1s by tomorrow :) | 20:38 |
| annegentle_ | For upgrade expectations, did anyone address the "from first integrated release" expectation? | 20:38 |
| annegentle_ | don't want to -1 unless I'm missing something | 20:38 |
| mordred | sdague, lifeless: I actually think both of you are wrong | 20:38 |
| sdague | annegentle_: good point | 20:38 |
| ttx | yay! | 20:38 |
| sdague | mordred: ok, alternate wording? | 20:38 |
| lifeless | mordred: yay!. | 20:39 |
| annegentle_ | ok -1 from me | 20:39 |
| devananda | on the "from any arbitrary point..." line, perhaps some wording that this doesn't imply a direct upgrade - which seems to be the point lifeless' comment is making | 20:39 |
| mordred | sdague: will work on it - I thnk you're closest | 20:39 |
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| sdague | mordred: ok. I think the intent between all of us is clear, but would be best to make it easy to understand by new projects | 20:40 |
| ttx | annegentle_: my reading is that "stable release" means integarted, but yes, more precision could help | 20:40 |
| sdague | so they don't get surprised | 20:40 |
| markmcclain | hmmm… technically the item has passed | 20:40 |
| sdague | I do think calling out "after initial integrated release" is fair point to make clear | 20:40 |
| ttx | OK, so this needs a few more iterations | 20:40 |
| mordred | sdague: perhaps we should enumerate what we expect to be testable | 20:40 |
| markmcclain | do we need folks to switch their +1s to 0/-1? | 20:40 |
| devananda | sdague: +1 | 20:40 |
| ttx | markmcclain: well, sdague hasn't formally cast his vote :) | 20:40 |
| sdague | ttx: I vote on my own proposals? | 20:41 |
| * markmcclain counts again | 20:41 | |
| ttx | sdague: it's a grey area. | 20:41 |
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| mordred | because we dont' do anything with 'arbitrary' points in time - and if it's not tested, it's broken | 20:41 |
| ttx | i usually count the proposer in favor, yes | 20:41 |
| markmcclain | 7 for -1 against | 20:41 |
| sdague | mordred: fair, I was trying to capture the spirit of the CD case | 20:41 |
| mordred | sdague: yah | 20:41 |
| * mordred may be wrong | 20:41 | |
| sdague | because we don't test it | 20:41 |
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| sdague | but we do call people out on it | 20:41 |
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| sdague | like when they reorder db migrations | 20:41 |
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| mordred | good point | 20:42 |
| ttx | markmcclain: oh, someone just added a +1 | 20:42 |
| mordred | sdague: maybe we should figure out how to test for that ... | 20:42 |
| markmcclain | I do think clarification is needed just wondering what the procedure is in this case… I assume voting it still open so folks can their positions | 20:42 |
| mordred | maybe not in this meeting | 20:42 |
| sdague | mordred: probably, though I doubt it will be this cycle | 20:42 |
| ttx | markmcclain: anyway, I only fasttrack approvals when there are 7 +1s and no objection. Everything else requires a 'final vote' to be called after two meetings of non consensus | 20:42 |
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| markmcclain | ttx: ah good to know | 20:43 |
| ttx | markmcclain: agree that proposer can vote on his own | 20:43 |
| ttx | I usually count proposer as a +1, but we could be more formal | 20:43 |
| sdague | so lets do this. annegentle_'s point is something we should fix, will do. I'm open to clearer language if someone proposes it. | 20:43 |
| ttx | ok, let's give it another week then | 20:43 |
| jeblair | ++ | 20:43 |
| ttx | * Add Ceilometer requirements (https://review.openstack.org/85978) | 20:43 |
| annegentle_ | sdague: so shall I patch this one with different wording? | 20:43 |
| sdague | I can honestly go less "legally", and more example oriented | 20:44 |
| sdague | annegentle_: sure, or leave a comment with the proposed wording | 20:44 |
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| ttx | This one is pretty stuck | 20:44 |
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| ttx | Not sure if we should ping proposer, vote -1 to remove it or just let it auto-abandon | 20:44 |
| eglynn | yeah seems no prospect of agreement on current version, shall I punt it back to jd for another round of wordsmithing? | 20:45 |
| ttx | eglynn: if it's still in same shape next week I'll probably cahse down -1s so that we kill it | 20:45 |
| jeblair | ttx: oh we don't auto-abandon anymore; do you have an abandon button? | 20:45 |
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| eglynn | ttx: k, understood | 20:45 |
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| ttx | jeblair: we haven't set rules for such cases yet | 20:46 |
| ttx | jeblair: I'm fine with the ultimatum I just gave | 20:46 |
| ttx | i.e. give it another week, and kill it softly with a pack of -1s if it's still around | 20:46 |
| jeblair | ttx: yeah, though i'm specifically asking if you personally have an abandon button in gerrit on the governance repo. :) | 20:46 |
| lifeless | mordred: +1 on enumerating things that should work. | 20:46 |
| lifeless | mordred: and things that shouldn't.[6~ | 20:46 |
| ttx | jeblair: yes I do | 20:46 |
| jeblair | cool | 20:46 |
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| ttx | #info If that one is not improved by next week, it will probably be abandoned | 20:47 |
| ttx | #topic Minor governance changes | 20:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Minor governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:47 | |
| ttx | * Render member list in HTML output (https://review.openstack.org/91450) | 20:47 |
| ttx | I guess I can approve that one as non-policy | 20:48 |
| mordred | ttx: ^^ do we need full TC vote on patches like that? non-policy patches seem like something that 2 positive votes should be good on | 20:48 |
| ttx | unless someone complains rreally soon | 20:48 |
| ttx | mordred; yep | 20:49 |
| jeblair | do the docs build now? if so, we should start gating | 20:49 |
| ttx | #info will approve tomorrow unless someone -1s | 20:49 |
| ttx | * Update sphinx doc formatting and toctrees (https://review.openstack.org/91422) | 20:49 |
| ttx | Same for this one | 20:49 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 20:49 |
| annegentle_ | I think two +2s should work for non-policy | 20:49 |
| ttx | #info will approve tomorrow unless someone -1s | 20:49 |
| ttx | * Add project mission statement for Ceilometer (https://review.openstack.org/87526) | 20:49 |
| mordred | (should we pep8 the python in the governance repo?) | 20:50 |
| * mordred hides | 20:50 | |
| ttx | I think that one just needs a few more +1s | 20:50 |
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| ttx | I prefer to have one in and have people suggest better words afterwards | 20:50 |
| jeblair | i think we gave ttx blanket non-policy rights (eg, i don't think he needs even 2 +2s, but can wait for them at his discretion) | 20:51 |
| ttx | #info Will approve whenever it reaches 7 +1s | 20:51 |
| ttx | jeblair: ok | 20:51 |
| ttx | jeblair: for those one I wanted to make sure this use of the governance repo was ok with everyone | 20:52 |
| ttx | but I think they are | 20:52 |
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| ttx | * Add oslo.db to the Oslo program (https://review.openstack.org/90127) | 20:52 |
| ttx | This one depends on: | 20:52 |
| ttx | * add oslo.i18n to Oslo program (https://review.openstack.org/92429) | 20:52 |
| ttx | Both are approved by PTL | 20:53 |
| ttx | no objection... OK if I approve them now ? | 20:53 |
| annegentle_ | ttx: yeah go ahead | 20:53 |
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| ttx | I may trigger a few rebasees but hey, that's life | 20:53 |
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| vishy | do it | 20:54 |
| sdague | ttx: +1 | 20:54 |
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| ttx | ok done | 20:55 |
| ttx | for both | 20:55 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:55 | |
| anteaya | o/ | 20:55 |
| ttx | anteaya: go for it | 20:55 |
| anteaya | thanks | 20:55 |
| anteaya | so I just want folks to know that soon I want to talk about some election stuff | 20:56 |
| anteaya | one item is do we have the right criteria for the electorate? | 20:56 |
| anteaya | the ptl elections seem to be healthy with at least 43% voting | 20:56 |
| annegentle_ | ttx: I have a q next | 20:56 |
| ttx | I hope I'll have my analysis of TC election ready soon, so that we can revisit the "proportional" option | 20:56 |
| anteaya | the tc election needs some evaluation | 20:56 |
| anteaya | we had 29.7% participation | 20:56 |
| anteaya | I think we need a better % of participation | 20:57 |
| mikal | Do we think that people had election fatigue at that point? | 20:57 |
| anteaya | so that is coming up | 20:57 |
| mikal | Many people had probably voted in several elections by then | 20:57 |
| anteaya | no, I don't percieve fatigue | 20:57 |
| anteaya | I percieve long tail | 20:57 |
| sdague | anteaya: do we have comparisons to past TC elections? | 20:57 |
| ttx | anteaya: I think it's a good topic. Ideally we would raise it on openstack-dev first to gather more input | 20:57 |
| anteaya | 450 electorate for nova | 20:57 |
| anteaya | 1500 electorate for tc | 20:57 |
| ttx | like for all resolutions | 20:57 |
| anteaya | yes, so just by way of heads up, I would like to have this discussion | 20:58 |
| ttx | sdague: it was around 30% last time as well | 20:58 |
| anteaya | I will get numbers and comparisons as they are requested | 20:58 |
| ttx | anteaya: ok, thxc for heads-up | 20:58 |
| ttx | annegentle_: go for your question | 20:58 |
| anteaya | the second item dealing with elections is campagn messageing | 20:58 |
| * mordred has been thinking about revisiting the 1-vote==ATC criteria | 20:58 | |
| anteaya | we don't have any and I think we should ahve some | 20:58 |
| anteaya | okay done | 20:58 |
| ttx | anteaya: ack | 20:58 |
| annegentle_ | do we need to elect a tc chair? Or did we and I forgot it already? | 20:58 |
| ttx | mordred: yes, we may want to revisit that, but I wonder if bylwas let us do that | 20:59 |
| sdague | annegentle_: we did it already | 20:59 |
| mordred | ttx: I think it's in our charter, no? | 20:59 |
| annegentle_ | sdague: ha I missed it | 20:59 |
| sdague | annegentle_: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/92461/ | 20:59 |
| ttx | mordred: I'll have to check how much we are constrained by the ATC definition in the bylways | 20:59 |
| mordred | ttx: we all think the foundation is crazy for having too-lax membership qualifications, so it seems like if we're having low voter turnout ... | 20:59 |
| ttx | which lives in some appendix | 20:59 |
| mordred | then perhaps we should address qualifications for being part of the electorate | 20:59 |
| ttx | annegentle_: was last meeting | 21:00 |
| mordred | since we have, you know, math at our disposal and are not afraid to use it | 21:00 |
| * jeblair is a little afraid of math | 21:00 | |
| ttx | behold the power of math | 21:00 |
| zaneb | mordred: if the uninformed voters are self-selecting out anyway... is there a need? | 21:00 |
| markmcclain | zaneb: quorum becomes a possible issue with low turnout | 21:00 |
| ttx | ok, time is up | 21:00 |
| ttx | thanks everyone! | 21:01 |
| zaneb | markmcclain: for the foundation yes; I don't think there is a quorum for TC elections though | 21:01 |
| mikal | :) | 21:01 |
| mordred | zaneb: quoruum | 21:01 |
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| ttx | #action ttx to check how much control we have on electorate definition for the Technical Committee | 21:01 |
| anteaya | zaneb: it plays a role in the effectiveness of any election | 21:01 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 20 21:01:52 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-05-20-20.02.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-05-20-20.02.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-05-20-20.02.log.html | 21:01 |
| mordred | zaneb: people get a year of free summit passes and votes in things for a single commit - we originally thought we'd need to incentivize participation | 21:02 |
| mordred | we don't REALLY seem to need to incentivize that any more | 21:02 |
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| zaneb | good point | 21:02 |
| mordred | it's possibly not a problem | 21:02 |
| * mikal takes a quick bio break before the release meeting | 21:02 | |
| mordred | but doing some math on figuring out who are ACTUALLY contributors would be maybe neat | 21:02 |
| jeblair | Amendments to this Technical Committee charter shall be proposed in a special motion, which needs to be approved by the affirmative vote of at least two-thirds of the total number of TC members (rounded up: in a 13-member committee that means a minimum of 9 approvers). | 21:02 |
| zaneb | +1 | 21:02 |
| ttx | dhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, eglynn, markwash, jgriffith, mikal, zaneb, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov: around ? | 21:02 |
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| dolphm | o/ | 21:02 |
| eglynn | o/ | 21:02 |
| notmyname | here | 21:02 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:02 |
| SlickNik | here | 21:03 |
| mestery | o/ | 21:03 |
| zaneb | o/ | 21:03 |
| ttx | #startmeeting project | 21:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 20 21:03:38 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'project' | 21:03 |
| ttx | First meeting from Juno era | 21:03 |
| markwash | o/ | 21:03 |
| * SergeyLukjanov flying above Boston atm, lurking | 21:03 | |
| ttx | Smallish agenda, should be quick | 21:03 |
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| ttx | I sometimes wonder when Sergey sleeps or takes vacation | 21:04 |
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| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting | 21:04 |
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| ttx | Following a suggestion from notmyname at the summit, here is the combined log of the 1:1s sync from today: | 21:04 |
| ttx | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2014/ptl_sync.2014-05-20-11.45.html | 21:04 |
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| ttx | #topic Juno Release Schedule | 21:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Juno Release Schedule (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:05 | |
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| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Juno_Release_Schedule | 21:05 |
| ttx | So this is the proposal from the Design Summit | 21:05 |
| SergeyLukjanov | wow, combined log looks pretty nice | 21:05 |
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| ttx | which we should officialize ASAP | 21:05 |
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| ttx | let me check my emails for complains | 21:05 |
| mikal | . | 21:06 |
| mestery | SergeyLukjanov: +1 to that, it's quite nice! | 21:06 |
| eglynn | which weeks are shaping up for mid-cycle meetups? | 21:06 |
| ttx | ok, no objection so far | 21:06 |
| SlickNik | ttx: no complains here | 21:06 |
| dolphm | eglynn: July 9, 10, 11 for keystone | 21:06 |
| ttx | Unless something significant is raised that makes me reconsider, I'll probably set it in stone by Thursday | 21:06 |
| notmyname | we've got a swift hackathon the first week of june | 21:07 |
| ttx | eglynn: first half of July is a popular option | 21:07 |
| mestery | eglynn: Neutron has one June 17-19 (for LBaaS) and July 9-11 (nova-network parity) | 21:07 |
| eglynn | ttx, dolphm: yep I was thinking along similar lines for ceilo | 21:07 |
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| mikal | ttx: juno-2 clashes with OSCON | 21:07 |
| mikal | ttx: do you see that being a problem? | 21:07 |
| dolphm | mikal: known issue, won't fix? | 21:07 |
| mikal | I'm ok with that, just checking | 21:08 |
| ttx | mikal: we discussed it. sdague proposed to run the milestone | 21:08 |
| mikal | Cool | 21:08 |
| ttx | we don't expect that much of an impact... milestones are just point in time. Crazy ones, I'll admit it, but not so much of a big deal | 21:08 |
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| SlickNik | eglynn: Trove is going later (Aug) due to some restrictions on the part of the organizers. | 21:08 |
| ttx | feature freeze is more... challenging | 21:08 |
| SergeyLukjanov | no plans for running mid-cycle meetup re sahara atm | 21:09 |
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| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-May/035340.html | 21:09 |
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| eglynn | SlickNik: August more problematic for us lazy Europeans, peeps want to do crazy things like go off on vacation ;) | 21:09 |
| dolphm | are there any projects that *don't* want to participate at all in feature proposal freeze? | 21:09 |
| ttx | so if you see an issue with it, just reply to the thread while it's still time | 21:10 |
| eglynn | dolphm: how slushy would it be? | 21:10 |
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| dolphm | eglynn: slushy? | 21:10 |
| ttx | dolphm: swift does not follow the common feature freeze, so doesn't follow FPF either | 21:10 |
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| zaneb | IME telling people there is a FPF is helpful even if you don't enforce it ;) | 21:10 |
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| eglynn | dolphm: slushy == not strictly enforced | 21:10 |
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| ttx | dolphm: I think ceilometer never followed FPF yet | 21:10 |
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| notmyname | dolphm: yes, what zaneb said | 21:11 |
| ttx | that's about it | 21:11 |
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| zaneb | eglynn: it's not enforced centrally, so you can do what you like :) | 21:11 |
| SlickNik | zaneb: +1 | 21:11 |
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| dolphm | ack | 21:11 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, I'm planning to make soft FPF in Juno for sahara | 21:11 |
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| ttx | "not enforced centrally" means I don't enforce anything | 21:11 |
| eglynn | historically, how strictly has it been enforced in projects for which it applies? | 21:11 |
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| eglynn | (even if not centrally enforced) | 21:12 |
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| ttx | eglynn: like all freezes, it's a tool | 21:12 |
| * eglynn is just wondering whether folks will tend to treat it as the dog that didn't bark | 21:12 | |
| ttx | eglynn: it's not about preventing stuff, it's about focus and communication | 21:12 |
| eglynn | ttx: cool enough, got it | 21:12 |
| dolphm | ttx: ++ | 21:12 |
| zaneb | eglynn: just use your judgement. the value is being able to say 'I told you so' when your judgement is that it's too late | 21:12 |
| eglynn | zaneb: fair point | 21:13 |
| ttx | make sure the change is worth late review disruption | 21:13 |
| ttx | if you don't have review contention, then FPF is useless | 21:13 |
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| ttx | OK, anything else on that topic ? | 21:13 |
| eglynn | so just to clarify FPF is only ever applied to the *-3 milestone? | 21:13 |
| eglynn | ... i.e. we go to the wire on j1 & j2 | 21:14 |
| dolphm | i'm also wondering how other projects envision FPF vs -specs repos -- does FPF still mean the implementation being *proposed* in gerrit? or does it mean the cutoff for -specs proposals to be *merged*? | 21:14 |
| notmyname | IMO mostly it comes down to communications. since there isn't a whole lot of enforcement that can actually be done in an open-source project like ours, it's mostly about setting expectations and getting people to focus on the "right" things at the right time | 21:14 |
| dolphm | eglynn: yes | 21:14 |
| ttx | eglynn: yes it's applied to feature freeze, which coincides with j-3 | 21:14 |
| eglynn | notmyname: well put | 21:14 |
| SlickNik | eglynn: yes, correct. | 21:14 |
| zaneb | notmyname: +1 | 21:14 |
| mestery | notmyname: Agree with that sentiment | 21:15 |
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| * eglynn is thinking that we'll try FPF in ceilo this time, assuming prior buy-in from the core team | 21:15 | |
| notmyname | dolphm: -specs are new, so that's TBD (at least for swift) | 21:15 |
| ttx | FWIW with the simple tagging process we'll be using for milestones, feature freeze might just happen on the Thursday rather than on the Tuesday | 21:15 |
| ttx | I still need to test the process | 21:15 |
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| ttx | so being on labor day week will have limited impact | 21:15 |
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| dolphm | notmyname: ++ i just want devs to have consistent expectations across projects | 21:16 |
| eglynn | dolphm: that's sane | 21:16 |
| notmyname | dolphm: specs are just ideas and design guidelines. the code is where the feature is, so I'd imagine that a feature freeze has to do with the code, not the specs repo | 21:17 |
| ttx | notmyname: yes. For some freezes it's also about communicating to other teams. Like StringFreeze exceptions needing heads-up to translators team | 21:17 |
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| dolphm | notmyname: agree, i'm just worried there's room for a conflicting interpretation this cycle | 21:17 |
| eglynn | surely the churn in the specs repos will be naturally frontloaded to the start of the cycle? | 21:17 |
| ttx | dolphm: I'd say specs proposals to be merged -- but yeah that's a bit open to discussion | 21:18 |
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| eglynn | i.e. if it ain't in the specs repo by j1, or shortly thereafter, it's not realistically gonna land in Juno, or? | 21:18 |
| ttx | eglynn: you're new to the job, aren't you ? | 21:18 |
| zaneb | lol | 21:19 |
| eglynn | ttx: touche! | 21:19 |
| ttx | eglynn: unfortunately, people propose stuff ALL THE TIME | 21:19 |
| ttx | which makes tracking incoming features so challenging | 21:19 |
| zaneb | ttx: I agree with notmyname; FPF should mean implementation patches posted | 21:19 |
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| ttx | zaneb: that's how we always did it yes | 21:19 |
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| ttx | zaneb: so it should also mean design merged, obviously :) | 21:20 |
| eglynn | sure, but we effectively do a soft "lock down" on the specs repos after a certain point in the cycle? | 21:20 |
| jgriffith | I'm unsure what the big concern is? Projects always have had exception process if needed? | 21:20 |
| dolphm | "Juno development is still open for another week, and here's a critical +10,000 line patch that will make suddenly OpenStack useful." | 21:20 |
| zaneb | I don't actually care about blueprints at all ;) | 21:20 |
| notmyname | zaneb: +1 :-) | 21:20 |
| dolphm | s/suddenly OpenStack/OpenStack suddenly/ | 21:20 |
| ttx | eglynn: I'd say it's open for projects to choose. It's still very much an experiment at this point | 21:20 |
| zaneb | spec repo is just a communication tool | 21:20 |
| notmyname | eglynn: I'd encourage you to not have strict rules about who or what can happen when. it's about setting expectations and guiding, not dictating who does what when | 21:21 |
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| dolphm | eglynn: i assume you'd just be landing specs to a K directory rather than Juno | 21:21 |
| dolphm | eglynn: if you even have time/interest to review them during the juno cycle | 21:21 |
| * jgriffith prefers strict rules, chaos sucks | 21:21 | |
| jgriffith | :) | 21:21 |
| ttx | eglynn: we'll let projects play with options and maybe try to converge later | 21:21 |
| sdague | historically FPF was an attempt to move the wild end rush that hits nova, neutron, and cinder back | 21:21 |
| eglynn | dolphm: yep, that would work | 21:21 |
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| sdague | so that code was actually landable by freeze | 21:21 |
| eglynn | notmyname: yep, that makes sense | 21:21 |
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| notmyname | ttx: (et al): speaking of feature freezes, Swift will have one starting next week while we do the storage policy integration work (yay it's almost done and delivered!) | 21:22 |
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| ttx | notmyname: great! | 21:22 |
| ttx | OK, I think it's time to move to next topic, unless someone has another question about schedule | 21:22 |
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| ttx | #topic One-to-one sync points with incubated projects | 21:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "One-to-one sync points with incubated projects (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:23 | |
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| ttx | At the summit it was suggested that rather than having incubated projects have some time at the end of the meeting... (if any left) | 21:23 |
| ttx | they should have their own 1:1s sync points | 21:24 |
| jgriffith | ttx: 's calendar just became very booked | 21:24 |
| ttx | I'm fine with trying that, if we can do them on a day that is not Tuesday | 21:24 |
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| ttx | devananda, kgriffs, jraim: if you are around, feel free to comment | 21:24 |
| dolphm | ttx: so, monday? | 21:24 |
| devananda | monday works for me | 21:25 |
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| ttx | Monday could work. Otherwise I was thinking wednesday or thursday :) | 21:25 |
| ttx | will depend on which times are available | 21:25 |
| ttx | but i'll try to have them all on same day | 21:25 |
| ttx | devananda, kgriffs, jraim: i'll be in touch with each of you | 21:26 |
| devananda | thanks! | 21:26 |
| ttx | to see if we can find a common day | 21:26 |
| ttx | that would just be a 15-min slot | 21:26 |
| ttx | #action ttx to contact devananda, kgriffs, jraim to plan incubated project 1:1s sync | 21:26 |
| ttx | devananda: makes sense to move to 1:1 sync rather than wait until meeting end ? | 21:27 |
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| devananda | ttx: it makes sense to me | 21:27 |
| devananda | ttx: at least for ironic, which is tracking the release process closely now | 21:27 |
| ttx | we might even be able to fit in a 10-min slot for each project | 21:27 |
| ttx | given the discussions we had last cycle | 21:27 |
| ttx | they all fit is way less :) | 21:28 |
| ttx | OK, we'll try this | 21:28 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 21:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:28 | |
| jeblair | do people have thoughts on how should specs repos be named? we decided they should be per-program, but many of them are named for the flagship project in that program. | 21:28 |
| jeblair | examples: cinder, glance, neutron, nova, oslo -specs repos all exist today; swift, ceilometer, ironic are proposed. | 21:28 |
| jeblair | some specs repos named for programs do exist: qa, tripleo, infra; though none of them have flagship projects | 21:28 |
| jeblair | this came up because of a proposal to create the identity-specs repo | 21:28 |
| devananda | jeblair: hmm, good point | 21:29 |
| ttx | jeblair: I'd very much prefer some amount of convergence there | 21:29 |
| devananda | ironic has at least one substantial other-project, IPA | 21:29 |
| mikal | I'd prefer to defer renaming until we have fewer open reviews to be honest | 21:29 |
| devananda | today it's still fairly small, but it could grow to a size where it needs its own specs in a cycle | 21:29 |
| eglynn | jeblair: yep, I'd be happy with telemetry-specs | 21:29 |
| devananda | or where ironic-specs might be confusing if we lump both together | 21:29 |
| mestery | Renaming would be a mild pain at the moment, I agree with mikal. | 21:29 |
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| ttx | jeblair: i can't wait until the program-concept-haters make us rename all of those because they conflict with openstack names | 21:30 |
| SergeyLukjanov | IMO program-based name works better for it, but launchpad project is named after the main project in program | 21:30 |
| dolphm | markwash: ttx: "ttx agrees with expanding the glance-ptl group to more than one person (ttx, 16:12:49)" ? | 21:30 |
| notmyname | objectstorage-specs is more unwieldy than swift-specs | 21:30 |
| mtreinish | jeblair: we used qa-specs because it was supposed to be both tempest and grenade specs, but in practice it's just tempest :) | 21:30 |
| jgriffith | SergeyLukjanov: +1 | 21:30 |
| dolphm | any context there | 21:30 |
| jeblair | mikal: renaming doesn't affect open reviews, but we can ceirtanly defer | 21:30 |
| markwash | dolphm: for glanceclient releases | 21:30 |
| ttx | dolphm: the -ptl group is the one allowed to tag releases in Gerrit | 21:30 |
| devananda | notmyname: how about bare-metal-provisioning-specs :) | 21:30 |
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| ttx | dolphm: -releasers would be more accurate | 21:30 |
| SergeyLukjanov | data-processing-service-specs | 21:31 |
| notmyname | devananda: now that's just crazy. unless you are naming it that ironically | 21:31 |
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| eglynn | jeblair: were the -specs repo creation patch hasn't landed yet, best to rename sooner rather than later, or? | 21:31 |
| ttx | dolphm: so if you want to delegate that task, you add people to the -ptl group. Makes sense ? | 21:31 |
| eglynn | jeblair: ... /me thinking of https://review.openstack.org/94044 for ceilometer-specs | 21:31 |
| dolphm | ttx: yeah | 21:31 |
| devananda | also on -specs, the question was raised on ironic's proposal. how do folks feel about separating -core from -specs-core? | 21:31 |
| jeblair | eglynn: yeah, we're holding off on the pending ones until at least now to see if we should change them | 21:31 |
| notmyname | devananda: I'm pretty much against that | 21:31 |
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| markwash | I prefer a separate -core from -specs-core for glance | 21:32 |
| dolphm | devananda: the implication being that you have a subset of -core that is -specs-core? | 21:32 |
| eglynn | devananda: we discussed this with the ceilo core team and didn't see the need for a smallish core group | 21:32 |
| notmyname | markwash: why? | 21:32 |
| ttx | jeblair: next time you have ideas for contentious topics like this, feel free to add to the agenda :) | 21:32 |
| sdague | devananda: nova has 2 separate groups | 21:32 |
| markwash | but one can always add -core as an included group in -core-specs | 21:32 |
| mikal | nova already has different core groups for the two repos | 21:32 |
| eglynn | devananda: but that is the way nova do it (with nova-drivers << nova-core) | 21:32 |
| mikal | One is currently a subset of the other though | 21:32 |
| dolphm | mikal: why bother? | 21:33 |
| sdague | there historically was always a nova-drivers that had the ability to target blueprints, which was a subset | 21:33 |
| jeblair | ttx: indeed. sorry. | 21:33 |
| mikal | dolphm: its historical mostly | 21:33 |
| * ttx thought he could get to bed early :) | 21:33 | |
| markwash | notmyname: core is mostly about good code review, drivers is mostly about product sanity | 21:33 |
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| devananda | mikal: any plans for intersecting rather than subset-of groups? | 21:33 |
| anteaya | ttx heh | 21:33 |
| SlickNik | devananda: FWIW trove has 2 separate groups too. (core and drivers) | 21:33 |
| mikal | devananda: as in having people in specs-core who aren't nova-core? | 21:33 |
| devananda | mikal: right | 21:33 |
| notmyname | those who have responsibility for managing the code itself (ie core) should still have the ability to discuss the stuff that will be proposed to the code (specs-core, ie drivers) | 21:34 |
| ttx | sdague: not a subset. a different group that usually was a subset | 21:34 |
| zaneb | I wouldn't be comfortable choosing who from heat-core to kick out of heat-drivers | 21:34 |
| markwash | I have a glance-specs-core member who is not a glance-core | 21:34 |
| mikal | devananda: I am not opposed to it, but I know some of the drivers members don't like the idea | 21:34 |
| devananda | mikal: might be crazy. but also might be good for folks with deep operational knowledge who aren't review core | 21:34 |
| markwash | its a good way to get product involvement from openstack companies | 21:34 |
| markwash | not always just devs | 21:34 |
| mikal | The counter arguement is that it sets expectations that a design is "ok to merge" when nova-core might not agree | 21:34 |
| devananda | i wouldn't want that involvement from companies (they'll just approve their own BPs) but rather from operators | 21:34 |
| ttx | mikal: yep, was about to say that | 21:35 |
| dolphm | mikal: ++ that's my concern | 21:35 |
| mikal | i.e. a consistent bar is required across both | 21:35 |
| devananda | but - that may be achievable merely by better socialization | 21:35 |
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| sdague | devananda: I think you can get plenty of feedback in the current system | 21:35 |
| ttx | mikal: and putting load on reviewers that may or may not agree with design | 21:35 |
| markwash | mikal: but of course, we already have that situation with part of nova core saying yes and part of nova core saying no | 21:35 |
| sdague | operators can +1 / -1 things | 21:35 |
| mestery | Neutron has a separate group which currently encompasses neutron-core. | 21:35 |
| mikal | The flip side is that I feel like we're failing to acknowledge the importance of ops reviews at the moment | 21:35 |
| devananda | sdague: gotcha | 21:35 |
| mestery | I like the idea of adding operators outside the scope of -core though. | 21:35 |
| ttx | I'm fine with people experimenting with both options at this point | 21:35 |
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| ttx | BUT we kinda need to chosse on the naming front | 21:35 |
| ttx | choose* | 21:36 |
| jeblair | back to bikeshedding on the name -- does anyone think that, in the long run, we should use project (eg nova) as opposed to program (compute)? | 21:36 |
| eglynn | hmmm, I'd hope such non-code-core specs approvers wouldn't morph into the commercial software world's concept of a "product manager" | 21:36 |
| sdague | right, but having someone who isn't delivering code be able to approve in blueprints seems... pretty antithetical to our culture | 21:36 |
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| ttx | between program-based naming and project-based naming | 21:36 |
| mikal | ttx: I think ultimately some sort of openstack-wide guideline would be a good idea | 21:36 |
| mikal | ttx: but perhaps that's a TC thing | 21:36 |
| ttx | mikal: right, but I'd wait for the end of the experiment :) | 21:36 |
| mikal | Its less confusing to newcomers if we're consistent | 21:36 |
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| jgriffith | ttx: project please... proliferation isn't going to be helpful in this case I don't think | 21:36 |
| dolphm | jeblair: for specs repos? | 21:36 |
| jeblair | dolphm: yes | 21:36 |
| mikal | ttx: do you have a timeline for declaring the experiment done in mind? | 21:36 |
| ttx | at this point let's let a thousand (or a dozen) flowers bloom! | 21:36 |
| mikal | ttx: "juno"? | 21:36 |
| devananda | program-based makes much more sense if we're using specs for programs like infra and tripleo | 21:36 |
| ttx | mikal: yes | 21:37 |
| eglynn | we should decide very quickly one way or the other on naming | 21:37 |
| dolphm | jeblair: nova chose nova-specs, keystone chose identity-specs | 21:37 |
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| eglynn | ... otherwsise we block the new -specs repos being created | 21:37 |
| dolphm | devananda: ++ and for including the client in the -specs process | 21:37 |
| eglynn | ... at a time when there should be a flood of specs | 21:37 |
| dolphm | clients* | 21:37 |
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| ttx | yeah, without convergence, discovery will be sucky | 21:37 |
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| mikal | ttx: what about handing ops -2 / +2, but not approve? Could that even be expressed in gerrit? | 21:37 |
| ttx | i.e. I woudn't necessarily find identity-specs | 21:37 |
| sdague | mikal: you only need to hand folks -2 if their -1s are valid, and being ignored | 21:38 |
| jeblair | i almost think we should go with keystone-specs for now, and then if we want to rename the project-named ones later, do that | 21:38 |
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| sdague | culture really fixes most of this | 21:38 |
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| jeblair | basically because so many programs went with the project name | 21:38 |
| notmyname | as awkward as it is in some cases, this should be {program}-specs | 21:38 |
| ttx | mikal: won't answer for gerrit. For the rest, try whatever you think will work for you, we'll converge later | 21:38 |
| zaneb | sdague: and ditto for +1's if you leave out approve rights | 21:38 |
| jeblair | notmyname: i agree | 21:38 |
| dolphm | sdague: mikal: how often do operators seriously oppose a change such that they would -2? | 21:39 |
| notmyname | because how else does one know where to look for client and other projects? | 21:39 |
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| ttx | but giving +2 without approve would sure be confusing | 21:39 |
| markwash | jeblair: keystone-specs is project-named, though, right? | 21:39 |
| sdague | dolphm: but on the counter, how often are they -1ing things and getting run rough shot over? | 21:39 |
| markwash | oh nm | 21:39 |
| mikal | Can't we address naming confusion by putting the specs repo name in the contributing file for each project? | 21:39 |
| jeblair | markwash: yep. okay, let me try again | 21:39 |
| notmyname | jeblair: so that being said, our current proposal should be renamed from swift-specs to objectstorage-specs | 21:39 |
| ttx | mikal: that's plan B if we can't converge on naming yes | 21:39 |
| mikal | dolphm: I have no data on that, but I am sure there are things core likes which ops don't | 21:39 |
| dolphm | markwash: identity-specs is what is proposed atm | 21:39 |
| jeblair | question 1) should the _end goal_ be to use project-name or program name? | 21:39 |
| ttx | A bit suboptimal imho | 21:39 |
| dolphm | sdague: i suppose that's what i'm asking - how often would a -2 come in handy | 21:40 |
| annegentle_ | I like project-specs due to the speculative nature of the specs | 21:40 |
| notmyname | what's the reasoning for using {project}-specs? is it only for ease of speaking it (in English)? | 21:40 |
| sdague | I've done the -1 override analysis a bunch of times, in different formats, we really don't override people's -1s very often | 21:40 |
| annegentle_ | and you know me, usually I'd argue for "call it the thing it is" but in this case it's not official at all yet | 21:40 |
| jeblair | quostion 2) should we try to converge to the end goal now (and change the current pending proposals); or go with project for a bit then rename them all later? | 21:40 |
| ttx | jeblair: program-specs reflects the fact that we said "one repo per program" | 21:40 |
| sdague | in the last 2 months nova overrode -1s ~ 3% of the time | 21:40 |
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| mikal | sdague: oh interesting, I wasn't aware of any numbers on that | 21:40 |
| eglynn | jeblair: I'd prefer a decision now, that we then stick to | 21:41 |
| sdague | mikal: I ran it this morning, on list, let me point | 21:41 |
| ttx | jeblair: but then for programs with a main project it creates mouthful specs repo name | 21:41 |
| ttx | where the project name can easily be used | 21:41 |
| sdague | mikal: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-May/035269.html | 21:41 |
| mikal | sdague: tahnks | 21:41 |
| jeblair | so actually, we do have "short" program names | 21:41 |
| * mikal is still digging out of email backlog post summit | 21:41 | |
| sdague | but similar things for CI systems. Smokestack only had 2 -1s in 2013 that were overridden | 21:41 |
| jeblair | we have "object-api" rather than "object-storage-api" | 21:42 |
| jeblair | so we could go with "object-specs" for swift | 21:42 |
| notmyname | ttx: except, there do tend to be people who focus on client side rather than server side, and I don't want to add psych barriers to contributions if they have to contribute to the "main" project specs repo. ie don't have classes of projects in the program | 21:42 |
| notmyname | jeblair: I'm good with that :-) | 21:42 |
| mikal | sdague: I am sure that's different for our current third party CIs | 21:42 |
| sdague | mikal: it is | 21:42 |
| annegentle_ | jeblair: but we don't want to keep maintaining object-api, netconn-api, we'd rather those act like specs too | 21:42 |
| annegentle_ | jeblair: speculative | 21:42 |
| sdague | but this was counter to the fact that people ignore reliable CI systems | 21:42 |
| sdague | they don't | 21:43 |
| ttx | jeblair: I'd say 1) short program name should be the end goal but 2) some tolerance should be applied to programs with main projects because that would be more discoverable | 21:43 |
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| sdague | we are a concensus driven culture, and reasonable objects are very very rarely ignored | 21:43 |
| dolphm | annegentle_: identity-api is super useful to us - what do you propose we do with all those docs? | 21:43 |
| ttx | notmyname: so you would have one repo per project under swift ? | 21:43 |
| eglynn | sdague: reasonable objections? | 21:43 |
| notmyname | ttx: absolutely | 21:43 |
| ttx | i.e. python-swiftclient-specs ? | 21:43 |
| sdague | eglynn: that too :) | 21:44 |
| dolphm | annegentle_: we also discussed identity-specs proposals linking to in-progress identity-api reviews to illustrate api impact | 21:44 |
| annegentle_ | dolphm: you're the only project using it like a spec, and we also don't publish it. That's what we want, just inside either -specs or /projectname repos | 21:44 |
| jgriffith | notmyname: why? | 21:44 |
| annegentle_ | dolphm: yep that would be cool | 21:44 |
| notmyname | ttx: one specs repo for swift, python-swiftclient, and swift-bench | 21:44 |
| devananda | i see no benefit to splitting the specs repositories for projects that are part of the same program apart | 21:44 |
| ttx | jeblair: looks like some programs want to go per-project for their specs repo anyway | 21:44 |
| eglynn | sdague: don't underestimate the power of inertia ;) | 21:44 |
| eglynn | ... or "facts on the ground" | 21:44 |
| sdague | :) | 21:44 |
| zaneb | ttx: on one hand, that's what we have with launchpad. OTOH that's what we have with launchpad and it is a pain | 21:44 |
| dolphm | annegentle_: i'd buy that as an argument for putting the api docs into -specs | 21:44 |
| jeblair | ttx: who? | 21:44 |
| notmyname | jgriffith: because oftentimes a single feature is needed to be exposed in both the server and client projects | 21:44 |
| annegentle_ | dolphm: would love that. | 21:45 |
| devananda | notmyname: i think your "absolutely" was meant as "no" | 21:45 |
| ttx | jeblair: swift | 21:45 |
| jgriffith | notmyname: sure, but the specs process now enables us to add that sort of thing | 21:45 |
| jeblair | ttx: i believe notmyname wants 'object-specs' and it will encompass all 3 programs | 21:45 |
| jeblair | er projects | 21:45 |
| notmyname | devananda: depends on your lag of when who said what :-) | 21:45 |
| jeblair | notmyname: right? | 21:45 |
| ttx | Now I'm confused | 21:45 |
| dolphm | annegentle_: but then i want to take that a step further, and put all our user-facing documentation into -specs, so that you're required to show doc impact before your feature is approved :) | 21:45 |
| jgriffith | jeblair: no, he wants three specs repos | 21:45 |
| notmyname | jeblair: that is correct. I want one shared specs repo for swift, python-swiftclient, and swift-bench | 21:45 |
| dolphm | annegentle_: identity-api is essentially documentation driven design already | 21:45 |
| jgriffith | notmyname: gahhh | 21:45 |
| jeblair | notmyname: excellent idea, i fully support it. ;) | 21:45 |
| notmyname | hehehe | 21:46 |
| jgriffith | ok, everybody is apparantly saying the same thing | 21:46 |
| annegentle_ | dolphm: yes | 21:46 |
| devananda | notmyname: i think you win the the most-confusingly-timed-reply award today. | 21:46 |
| jgriffith | notmyname: I agree | 21:46 |
| annegentle_ | yes please put all the specs in <proj>-specs | 21:46 |
| ttx | notmyname: why would you answer "absolutely" to my "notmyname: so you would have one repo per project under swift ?" ? | 21:46 |
| annegentle_ | including api specs | 21:46 |
| eglynn | notmyname: /me similarly for telemetry (encompassing ceilo, ceiloclient & pycadf) | 21:46 |
| dolphm | annegentle_: (was that also a dig against <program>-specs?) | 21:46 |
| jeblair | okay, i'm not hearing any huge objection to program-specs; and some amount of consensus for it | 21:46 |
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| devananda | ++ program-specs | 21:46 |
| annegentle_ | dolphm: jeblair I'm against program-specs | 21:47 |
| ttx | notmyname: that's where my confusion stems from :) | 21:47 |
| notmyname | ttx: either there was some miss timing or I was reading it as swift the program, not project (my own confusion) | 21:47 |
| jeblair | annegentle_: why? | 21:47 |
| ttx | ok | 21:47 |
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| annegentle_ | dolphm: jeblair: because we could one day have multiple repos in a single program -- like Deployment | 21:47 |
| notmyname | ttx: also, I'm on pain meds today ;-) | 21:47 |
| ttx | we still have 13 more minutes to violently agree | 21:47 |
| jeblair | annegentle_: we have lots of repos in single programs | 21:48 |
| eglynn | would a non-binding vote clarify to see if there's any kind of rough consensus emerging? | 21:48 |
| ttx | notmyname: oh right. get well soon, btw | 21:48 |
| devananda | annegentle_: we already have that. and that's precisely why fokls want a single specs repo per project | 21:48 |
| devananda | gah | 21:48 |
| dolphm | annegentle_: we already do: keystone, python-keystoneclient, and (soon) keystonemiddleware | 21:48 |
| jeblair | annegentle_: infra has 43 projects in one program. :) | 21:48 |
| devananda | s/project/program/ in my previous sentence | 21:48 |
| notmyname | proposed vote: one repo per program. named as {program}-specs | 21:48 |
| jeblair | annegentle_: i think the single specs repo per program helps with that case | 21:49 |
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| jeblair | annegentle_: and notmyname gave a very good specific example | 21:49 |
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| eglynn | yep let's nail our colours to the mast | 21:49 |
| ttx | notmyname: +1 | 21:49 |
| dolphm | ttx: can you run a vote next week? | 21:49 |
| annegentle_ | devananda: so how does the review process work if (again speculating) multiple solutions for deployment get proposed? Say chef and puppet people want to work on Deployment program, do they work in deployment-specs? or chef-specs and puppet-specs? | 21:49 |
| zaneb | notmyname: those are two separate questions imo | 21:49 |
| dolphm | ttx: or now, if everyone is here | 21:49 |
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| eglynn | I'd prefer now | 21:49 |
| ttx | dolphm: I don't think we need to vote, every -specs user so far has +1ed it | 21:49 |
| jeblair | i asked at this meeting because i thought that getting ptl consensus was the most emportant | 21:50 |
| jeblair | important | 21:50 |
| notmyname | jeblair: yes, that | 21:50 |
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| ttx | Anne disagrees but hen she doesn't have a -specs repo :P | 21:50 |
| markwash | discoverability doesn't seem that hard to me to be honest | 21:50 |
| annegentle_ | so my two concerns may be too futuristic: 1) naming as an "offical" program gives an officialness to the spec and publishing and 2) if there are multiple solutions within a program that may have different specs, how will reviews work? | 21:50 |
| dolphm | ttx: i want to understand her argument though :) | 21:50 |
| lifeless | annegentle_: tripleo-specs, if they're getting involved in the tripleo program | 21:50 |
| devananda | annegentle_: there's another question buried in there -- do chef and puppet tools have a place within the Deployment program? (and that's a much larger discussion) | 21:50 |
| markwash | so I don't see a really big need for consistency | 21:50 |
| annegentle_ | ttx: :) | 21:51 |
| devananda | ttx: I would rather not block the creation of ironic-specs another week waiting for a vote | 21:51 |
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| annegentle_ | devananda: yeah that's why I may be either conflating or borrowing from the future | 21:51 |
| ttx | ok let's record this | 21:51 |
| eglynn | devananda: +1 (s/ironic/ceilo/) | 21:51 |
| annegentle_ | ttx: are you going to rename nova-specs to compute-specs? | 21:51 |
| dolphm | if a "program" has isolated communities with, let's say, non-converging interests, they should be separate programs IMO | 21:51 |
| annegentle_ | perhaps I just misunderstand program names | 21:51 |
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| devananda | dolphm: right | 21:52 |
| jeblair | annegentle_: i think we would want to rename nova-specs to compute-specs if we decide to go this way | 21:52 |
| dolphm | assuming they both have justifiable reasons to co-exist (which is obviously the case for the chef & puppet example) | 21:52 |
| devananda | dolphm: but let's not bikeshed on that now :) | 21:52 |
| markwash | considering how much work goes into writing a spec, I don't see how the cost of finding the right repo could possibly matter | 21:52 |
| * dolphm is reels himself back in | 21:52 | |
| mikal | I wouldn't have a problem with nova-specs being renamed compute-specs, but I don't see the rush either | 21:52 |
| ttx | #startvote End goal of one spec repo per program, named program-specs ? yes, no, abstain, i_want_all_options_opened | 21:52 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: End goal of one spec repo per program, named program-specs ? Valid vote options are yes, no, abstain, i_want_all_options_opened. | 21:52 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 21:52 |
| jeblair | #vote yes | 21:52 |
| mikal | #vote yes | 21:52 |
| devananda | #vote yes | 21:52 |
| mtreinish | #vote yes | 21:52 |
| ttx | markwash: your option is i_want_all_options_opened | 21:52 |
| eglynn | #note yes | 21:52 |
| markwash | #vote i_want_all_options_opened | 21:53 |
| dolphm | #vote yes | 21:53 |
| mestery | #vote yes | 21:53 |
| notmyname | #vote yes | 21:53 |
| zaneb | #vote yes | 21:53 |
| jgriffith | #vote yes | 21:53 |
| SlickNik | #vote yes | 21:53 |
| markwash | could have just called it "vote 'markwash'" :-) | 21:53 |
| david-lyle | #vote yes | 21:53 |
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| devananda | eglynn: i think you typo'd s/n/v/ | 21:53 |
| zaneb | strongly +1 on first part, genuinely don't care about naming | 21:53 |
| markwash | eglynn: did you mean note? or vote? :-) | 21:53 |
| dolphm | zaneb: vote markwash then | 21:53 |
| eglynn | #vote yes | 21:53 |
| ttx | do we have all PTLs with specs projects in the vote ? | 21:53 |
| eglynn | devananda, markwash: thanks! /me has fat fingers :) | 21:54 |
| SlickNik | FWIW, trove isn't moving to a -specs workflow quite yet, but we'd like 1 {database|trove}-spec repo for all projects in the program when we do decide to move to it. | 21:54 |
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| ttx | I think we do | 21:54 |
| ttx | #endvote | 21:54 |
| zaneb | dolphm: oh, is that what that meant | 21:54 |
| openstack | Voted on "End goal of one spec repo per program, named program-specs ?" Results are | 21:54 |
| openstack | yes (12): SlickNik, zaneb, mestery, notmyname, mtreinish, eglynn, jeblair, devananda, jgriffith, mikal, dolphm, david-lyle | 21:54 |
| openstack | i_want_all_options_opened (1): markwash | 21:54 |
| jeblair | okay, i will ask that pending specs repo reviews be updated with program-specs and will schedule renames of existing repos in a lazy manner (not too soon) | 21:54 |
| ttx | zaneb: too late! :) | 21:54 |
| dolphm | yes (11), i_want_all_options_opened (2) #zaneb | 21:54 |
| annegentle_ | jeblair: ttx: ok thanks for hearing me out! I'm fine with the naming | 21:54 |
| jeblair | thanks everyone and ttx, sorry for keeping you up | 21:54 |
| notmyname | jeblair: can you push a new patch over the ones there? | 21:54 |
| ttx | markwash: feel free to be an outlier | 21:54 |
| markwash | I don't mind being renamed | 21:55 |
| notmyname | markwash: it's fun being an outlier ;-) | 21:55 |
| annegentle_ | ttx: I have one other comment about -specs repos if I may | 21:55 |
| markwash | actually it would be easier to be renamed sooner jeblair | 21:55 |
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| * notmyname has experience from days on TC | 21:55 | |
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| ttx | annegentle_: you may | 21:55 |
| markwash | since we just added our template review today | 21:55 |
| zaneb | #vote outlier | 21:55 |
| eglynn | jeblair: thank you for bringing it to the table in time to avoid needless renaming | 21:55 |
| annegentle_ | pre-incubating projects, like barbican, shouldn't use an unaltered -spec template as it has some openstack branding apparently? | 21:55 |
| markwash | what will we call identity-specs when keystone is no longer an IdP ? | 21:55 |
| jeblair | markwash: we are scheduling a rename outage for friday, can do it then | 21:55 |
| zaneb | notmyname: pretty sure this is the first meeting where you and I have agreed on everything :D | 21:55 |
| annegentle_ | so we might need to think about the migration of specs as programs move through incubation | 21:55 |
| notmyname | zaneb: :-) | 21:56 |
| dolphm | i'd also really like to see a single spec template -- i was just going to reference nova's existing template if possible | 21:56 |
| ttx | annegentle_: agree, they probably should not | 21:56 |
| * ttx admits not having looked at specs template yet | 21:56 | |
| jeblair | dolphm: there's lots of comonality, but some variation is needed i think | 21:56 |
| annegentle_ | ttx: that's all I was going to note | 21:56 |
| markwash | dolphm: there are some nova-specific notes in it, which makes some sense to me | 21:56 |
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| ttx | so much for a short meeting :) | 21:56 |
| jeblair | dolphm: (eg, horizion has some specific needs, and infra does too) | 21:56 |
| markwash | e.g. notes about conductor changes and periodics | 21:56 |
| * ttx blames jeblair for messing with his meeting time management | 21:57 | |
| zaneb | ttx: work expands to fill the time available | 21:57 |
| dolphm | markwash: all the ones i see could basically be s/nova/keystone/ | 21:57 |
| markwash | haa | 21:57 |
| jeblair | ttx: you're totally going to finish on time. ;) | 21:57 |
| lifeless | so is it nova-specs or compute-specs :) | 21:57 |
| dolphm | lifeless: compute-specs | 21:57 |
| markwash | nova-compute-specs | 21:57 |
| ttx | jeblair: that's because I'm so good at it :) | 21:57 |
| markwash | /me lies | 21:57 |
| lifeless | so we need to rename the existing ones :/ | 21:57 |
| ttx | openstack-compute-nova-specs | 21:57 |
| jeblair | ttx: you are | 21:57 |
| jeblair | lifeless: yes, it's our eternal burden in infra to rename projects | 21:58 |
| mikal | jeblair: you love it! | 21:58 |
| ttx | ok... Anything else, anyone ? | 21:58 |
| dolphm | i thought that's what infra was for | 21:58 |
| mikal | dolphm: and restarting etherpad | 21:59 |
| dolphm | mikal: +++ | 21:59 |
| jeblair | dolphm: we just haven't gotten around to renaming ourselves the 'project renaming project' | 21:59 |
| eglynn | LOL :) | 21:59 |
| dolphm | jeblair: ooh, +1 | 21:59 |
| * anteaya adds that to infra agenda | 21:59 | |
| *** harlowja is now known as harlowja_away | 21:59 | |
| SlickNik | lol | 21:59 |
| ttx | you should propose a rename-as-a-service for incubation | 21:59 |
| jeblair | ttx: i would love that | 22:00 |
| ttx | because that process is really way too manual | 22:00 |
| ttx | not self-service at all | 22:00 |
| mikal | We have that though | 22:00 |
| mikal | Just send infra an email, they do the thing | 22:00 |
| * devananda notes that ironic's program name "bare metal" also duplicates the colloquial reference for the nova "baremetal" driver | 22:00 | |
| mikal | Its a meat based service | 22:00 |
| ttx | mikal: it's fanatical support. | 22:00 |
| jeblair | bacon as a service | 22:00 |
| ttx | on these last words... | 22:00 |
| mikal | ttx: heh | 22:00 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 22:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:00 | |
| devananda | jeblair: yes! | 22:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 20 22:00:47 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-05-20-21.03.html | 22:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-05-20-21.03.txt | 22:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-05-20-21.03.log.html | 22:00 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone! | 22:00 |
| mikal | ttx: thanks! | 22:00 |
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| eglynn | good night folks! | 22:01 |
| mestery | ttx: thanks and good night! | 22:01 |
| SlickNik | ttx: Thank you! | 22:01 |
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| SlickNik | Catch you later. | 22:01 |
| anteaya | night ttx | 22:01 |
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