Monday, 2014-08-11

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HenryGHi jlibosva salv-orlando12:59
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HenryGDo you have anything to discuss for neutron_db? I think Ann is still on vacation.13:00
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HenryG#startmeeting neutron_db13:00
openstackMeeting started Mon Aug 11 13:00:34 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is HenryG. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_db)"13:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_db'13:00
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HenryG#topic Import All Models13:01
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jlibosvaAs we agreed last meeting, I sent an email upstream about strategy for obtaining all models and got 0 responses. :)13:01
HenryGjlibosva: I think that means it is good :)13:02
jlibosvaso I pushed the approach we agreed on last meeting:
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jlibosvaI think I had an error in my benchmark about time consumption. But still it's reasonable13:02
salv-orlandojlibosva: honestly, I did not see it. Just found it in my spam.13:02
salv-orlandoprobably that happened to other people as well?13:02
jlibosvathat would explain why all my emails are not getting attention. I thought that people just don't like me13:03
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jlibosvaanyway, any review on that patch is appreciated13:04
salv-orlandojlibosva: idk, but since we work in the same time zone, I should be the first to catch them, so it’s probably my fault as werll13:04
salv-orlandoanyway, for your patch it all boils down to gauge opinions on pkgutil.walk_packages13:04
salv-orlandowhether it’s deemed safe, or black magic or whatever13:05
salv-orlandoapart from that, it’s an easy one.13:05
HenryGI tried it and my opinion is it works just fine.13:05
salv-orlandoIf I can get a few other cores away from this group policy turmoil we’ll try and sort that quickly13:05
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HenryG#topic Open Discussion13:08
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HenryGsalv-orlando: Did you get to talk to Mark about ?13:09
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salv-orlandoHenryG: we promised each other to talk about it today.13:09
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HenryGsalv-orlando: Thanks!13:09
salv-orlandoBecause the last days of the previous week have been a bit hectic,13:09
salv-orlandoso we should get sorted that today.13:09
salv-orlandoThen I’ve also a few patches up for review.13:10
salv-orlandoOne is big - but not difficult.13:10
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salv-orlandoFor this patch, I need to do a trick, which is pushing a dummy patch stacked on top of patch #40296. In this way we will test automatically that the new initial state works fine for all the plugins with a CI.13:11
salv-orlando(the ones with a working CI, obviously)13:11
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HenryGSounds good13:11
HenryGAnd talking about #40296 ...13:12
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HenryGI would be very happy to see it merge :)13:12
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HenryGAnything else to discuss?13:14
salv-orlandoHenryG: I’ll put it on my review queue for today… but I told you we’ll merge it on aug 19th to mark a year since it was ready for review for the 1st time!13:14
HenryGI couldn't tell if you were serious. :)13:15
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HenryGThanks jlibosva and salv-orlando.13:18
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"13:18
openstackMeeting ended Mon Aug 11 13:18:28 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)13:18
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jlibosvathank you too :) bye13:18
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krotscheckStoryBoard meeting in #openstack-meeting14:59
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krotscheck#startmeeting StoryBoard15:00
openstackMeeting started Mon Aug 11 15:00:08 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is krotscheck. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'storyboard'15:00
krotscheckttx can haz cheezburger15:01
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krotscheck#topic Urgent Items (Rabbit)15:01
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* ttx wonders why the recent review approvals did not trigger a merge avalanche yet15:01
krotscheckttx: zuul is borked15:01
* ttx queries gerrit for info15:01
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ttxkrotscheck: ah!15:01
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krotscheckSo, the initial puppet patch landed on friday, but it brought up the “Why are our config files getting confused” issue again.15:02
krotscheckThat resulted in this patch:
krotscheckWhich precedes this one (the actual one with rabbit in it)
krotscheckAnd, for fun and profit, there’s also this one, but it’s less urgent:
krotscheckEither way, getting clarkb/mordred/jeblair/other infra people to look at it this week would be neat.15:03
krotscheck#topic Discussion Topics (Subscription)15:04
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*** openstack changes topic to "Discussion Topics (Subscription) (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)"15:04
krotscheckThe question here is oslo.messaging vs. pika15:04
NikitaKonovalovI just wanted to know advantages of using Pika instaead of oslo15:04
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krotscheckWell, pika is the one used in most of the rabbit tutorials, while oslo.messaging is the one that openstack built for itself.15:05
ttxisn't oslo.messaging using pika as backend?15:05
krotscheckttx, I believe it is.15:05
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krotscheckttx: There’s an abstraction layer there though that also allows other backends to get plugged in.15:05
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ttxright, like qpid15:06
krotscheckSo, there isn’t so much an _advantage_ of using pika, as there is a disadvantage to using oslo.messaging15:06
krotscheckIsh__ discovered as she was working on it, that creating a new notifier created both an exchange _and_ a queue.15:07
krotscheckA persistent queue.15:07
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NikitaKonovalovwhat's wrong with that?15:07
krotscheckWhich, if you’re really only looking for a single consumption queue and you care about data retention makes some sense.15:07
krotscheckWell, let’s walk through what would happen.15:08
krotscheckI want to broadcast a message with topic project, and one with project_group15:08
krotscheckSo I have to create two notifiers, because topics are locked by notifiers.15:08
krotscheckSorry - I mean that a topic is passed to a notifier at creation.15:08
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krotscheckSo then the notifier creates one exchange, and two queues, one for project_groups and one for projects.15:09
krotscheckExcept my consumer wants to get _both_15:09
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krotscheckMy consumer then attaches itself and… does what? Consumes from two different queues? Or creates a new queue with a binding of *.15:09
ttxkrotscheck: so pika exposes more features than oslo.msg, including one you would like to use15:09
NikitaKonovalovok, I see15:09
krotscheckWell, it’s more that pika allows us to be more granular and specific.15:10
ttxto be fair, oslo.msg's goal was to streamline queue communication across openstack projects, so limiting options is a bit in its goals15:10
ttxI'm fine with storyboard having a slightly different use case15:10
krotscheckAnd that totally makes sense.15:10
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krotscheckAnd, especially in openstack itself, keeping all the messages in predefined queues is super important because different components of openstack have different boot times.15:11
ttxwould you say that using pika would prevent us frm switching to an oslo.messaging that would expose the feature we want ? due to different semantics?15:11
ttxi.e. if our use case becomes supported in oslo.messaging, would we be able to switch to that at reasonable cost ?15:12
krotscheckIsh__? Is your code abstracted enough so that we can switch libraries?15:12
ttxor is picking pika (haha) a bit of a non-return point?15:12
* krotscheck seems to recall that it is.15:12
NikitaKonovalovjust to make things clear, there is going to be as many queues as we need for every topic, and a number of consumers listenening to a specific queue each?15:12
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ttxI think using RabbitMQ is much more important as far as consistency/familiarity goes than using oslo.messaging15:12
ttxbut I would rather not PREVENT us from using oslo.messaging in the future15:13
krotscheckNikitaKonovalov: That depends on each use case? For subscriptions, we should only be creating one queue that takes all topics.15:13
Ish__I think it should be easier to switch.15:13
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ttxand we should definitely use the library that lets us have the cake and the icing15:13
krotscheckCase and point: It took Ish__ less than a day to switch her code over from oslo.messaging to pika15:13
NikitaKonovalovwe have already hardened MySQL with it's drivers, so why messaging should be generec then?15:13
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krotscheckNikitaKonovalov: Good point15:14
krotscheckSo ttx’s concerns are portability. Are you comfortable that we can switch over to oslo.messaging in the future?15:14
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Ish__if that is required, well we can.15:15
ttxkrotscheck, Ish__: then as far as I'm concerned, use pika15:16
krotscheckOk. NikitaKonovalov - what do you think?15:16
NikitaKonovalovworks for me15:16
NikitaKonovalovI'll remove my -215:16
ttxit's totally defensible saying we need feature X and are willing to switch back to oslo.messaging if it ever implements it15:16
NikitaKonovalovbut still need to review that15:16
ttxbut will use foo until then15:17
krotscheck#agreed Use pika instead of oslo.messaging, with the understanding that once oslo.messaging supports it we can move to use it again.15:17
* krotscheck would rather have someone else maintain his messaging library :)15:17
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krotscheck#topic MVP(Search)15:18
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krotscheckI think all of these bits are in review. Anyone remember any stoppers?15:18
NikitaKonovalovthe backend is approved15:19
NikitaKonovalovjust waiting for the tests to pass15:19
krotscheckFrontend is pending a rather large review so that the resources know how to search.15:19
krotscheckI did run into a weird issue with the fulltext library on the backend in that it doesn’t seem to like additional criteria, but I didn’t have enough time to dig into _why_.15:20
NikitaKonovalovkrotscheck: I'll check that all parameters are passed correctly15:21
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krotscheckNikitaKonovalov: They are. It’s just that our search endpoints only accept q= right now, and when I tried to add story_id or something else it just ignored them.15:21
NikitaKonovalovthat's strange, I'll chaeck taht15:22
krotscheck#topic Launchpad Data Import15:22
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krotscheckmordred? I have the sneaking suspicion you’re still driving.15:22
* krotscheck wants to publicly thank mordred for making the treck all the way to seattle by car this weekend :)15:22
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krotscheckAlright, let’s move on until he sees this.15:23
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krotscheck#topic Subscription15:23
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krotscheckWe have LOTS of patches for this.15:23
ttxmost patches in review are 80% approved15:24
ttxthey should all go in very fast15:24
krotscheckThere’s some cross dependencies that need to be managed.15:24
ttxif zuul is with us15:24
krotscheckWe can’t land the publisher without rabbit for instance.15:24
ttxall hail Zuul15:24
krotscheckSo for the time being, let’s get everything reviewed, and manually land patches so that everything lands in order.15:25
krotscheckI believe the order should be....15:26
krotschecklet’s see.15:26
krotscheckSubscription API.15:26
krotscheckSubscription UI15:26
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krotscheckSubscription Publisher.15:26
krotscheckSubscription consumer.15:26
krotscheckDeferred processing daemon.15:26
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krotscheckDid I miss anything?15:26
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NikitaKonovalovreasonable order for me15:27
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krotscheckIsh__: Is that “No I didn’t miss anything” or “No don’t merge it like that”?15:28
Ish__I mean didn’t miss anything,. ;)15:28
krotscheckThere’s still one outstanding piece of work, which is to make the subscriptions show up on the dashboard.15:28
krotscheckAnd I have to get that in before leaving for vacation on saturday, so the pressure’s on.15:29
krotscheckAny questions before we move on?15:29
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krotscheck#topic Project Groups15:29
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krotscheckNo progress.15:29
krotscheckStatus is as it was a week ago.15:29
NikitaKonovalovnothing from me here either15:29
krotscheckWe still have to cover Tags and Emails, but I don’t think we’ve got anything on those.15:30
krotscheckSo unless I get objections I’m going to skip.15:30
NikitaKonovalovI'm back from vacation, so I'll focus on tags this week15:30
krotscheckAwesome, thanks.15:30
krotscheck#topic Ongoing Work15:31
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krotscheckHow do people feel about this meeting section? It’s… I dunno, I feel like we cover most of what everyone is working on in the previous pieces.15:31
* NikitaKonovalov has the same feeling15:31
ttxsotoryboard should ultimately make it obvious15:32
krotscheckHow about we merge this with open discussion?15:32
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krotscheck#topic Open Discussion15:32
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ttxI think that we are gettingthere, between the vision/roadmap/stories/reviews, we get a pretty accurate picture of where we stand15:32
ttxso i'm fnie with merging with open discussion15:33
ttxfor highlights15:33
krotscheckOk, so the only open discussion piece I have is the ongoing cleanup of the jenkins build.15:33
* ttx looks up roadmap15:33
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krotscheckThe highest priority piece right now that we have that’s seeing no movement is the launchpad data import, and I can confidently say that if it doesn’t get done this week, it probably won’t land until september.15:34
krotscheckbecause both mordred and I won’t be around.15:34
ttxSo at this point i'm confident we'll hit 1.1 targets before Paris, and hopefully cover 1.1.1 targets before then15:34
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ttxthat means we'll get infra to use us fully15:34
krotscheckyay :)15:34
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ttxi don't think we'll have 1.2 targets, so it will be a little early to fish for guinea pig projects withing the openstack release15:35
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krotscheckWell, we’ve already got refstack and openstack-groups.15:36
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ttxWe may get oslo to switch early though15:36
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krotscheckThat’d be nice.15:36
ttxsince they don't have the same heavy requirements as the other integrated projects15:36
ttxand desperately need our projectgroups15:36
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ttxso maybe they could move in with only basic milestone support15:37
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ttxi'll have to look into splitting that 1.2 between Oslo and other integrated projects15:37
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ttxbut it will be difficult imho15:37
krotscheckttx: It may make the most sense to do project-support as point releases in the 1.2.x versions15:37
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krotscheckThat way we can focus instead of trying to please everyone.15:38
ttxkrotscheck: right. Pick project X as the target and implement what THEy need to move15:38
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krotscheckThat’ll have to be balanced with infra coming to us with “Thanks, and” requests.15:39
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ttxkrotscheck: anyway, the 1.1 goals are pretty well set and ordered, so not urgent to refine the 1.2 goals15:39
krotscheckAlso, we have a bug backlog :)15:40
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ttxjust need to think how to optimize onboarding15:40
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krotscheckDef something we can do during the summit?15:40
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ttxkrotscheck: yes, sounds like the right place for it15:41
ttxgiven our current progress15:41
krotscheckAny other topics?15:41
ttxif we finish 1.1.1 early I'm pretty sure we'll keep ourselves busy anyway15:41
krotscheckYeah, ‘cause we have backlogs15:41
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NikitaKonovalovnothing new from me15:42
krotscheckOk, let’s end early.15:42
krotscheckThanks everyone15:42
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"15:42
openstackMeeting ended Mon Aug 11 15:42:44 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:42
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rakhmerov#startmeeting Mistral16:00
openstackMeeting started Mon Aug 11 16:00:19 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is rakhmerov. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Mistral)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'mistral'16:00
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rakhmerovhi, how are you?16:01
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akuznetsovagreat) I have started to work with tests which will check workflow execution16:02
rakhmerovexcellent, thanks16:02
rakhmerovso let's wait a couple of more minutes and if nobody else shows up we'll finish earlier16:03
rakhmerovbecause I mostly know your status16:03
rakhmerovand you know mine16:03
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dziminehi all!16:04
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rakhmerovwe were about to finish the meeting16:04
dzimineok now we can finish it together :)16:04
rakhmerovNikolay is sick today so there are only three of us16:04
rakhmerovno problem16:04
dziminewho’s #2 (given i’m #3)16:04
rakhmerovI think we pretty much know our statuses16:05
rakhmerovDmitri, I suggest that we finish the meeting right away, I would better call you tomorrow around your second convenient time (9pm, right)?16:05
dzimineakuznetsova: I looked at your comments re api tests and ok with rename. At first I though the 2 sets of API tests are redundant, now I see they are just different.16:05
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dzimineTalk to you Renat later my day.16:06
dziminebye all!16:06
rakhmerovand thanks for the reviews16:06
akuznetsovadzimine, ok16:06
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rakhmerovok, bye! The quickest meeting so far :)16:07
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openstackrluethi: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee'17:00
rluethi#startmeeting training-guides17:00
openstackMeeting started Mon Aug 11 17:00:11 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is rluethi. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: training-guides)"17:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'training_guides'17:00
dbiteroll call17:00
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rluethisarob cannot be with us today.17:00
rluethihi everyone.17:00
dbitehello guys17:01
rluethidbite: update on docs?17:01
dbiteset the topic?17:01
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dbite*can you set the topic17:01
rluethi#topic docs17:01
*** openstack changes topic to "docs (Meeting topic: training-guides)"17:01
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dbite#info docs team was previously called stable team17:02
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dbitebasic install guide needs to be updated for Icehouse17:02
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dbitesome of the sections like ML2 plugin etc. are missing and older OVS plugin for Neutron is still in use17:03
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dbitesarob_: hello17:03
sarob_Hey. I'm on a short break17:03
rluethiyes. a comparison with the openstack-manuals install-guide for icehouse will show the necessary changes.17:03
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dbiteis the Comcast team there with us?17:03
MeganRI'm here17:04
matjazpdbite: for basic install guide, just report relevant bugs... so we can all chip in17:04
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dbiteI agree with rluethi, for getting better idea we can compare with install guides under openstack-manuals project17:04
dbitematjazp: Yes, I will start logging bugs17:05
rluethiMeganR: I you guys want to help out, you don't need lots of prior knowledge for this task.17:05
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dbiteMeganR: have you guys been working on the install guides part? Last time we discussed we were planning on migrating to something very close to install guides17:05
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MeganRrluethi: we would be happy to help out - especially if not a lot of previous knowledge is needed17:06
dbitesayali_: also can you get in touch with MeganR and her team to get better idea for working on install-guides17:06
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sayali_dbite, alright17:06
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dbiteMeganR: it has a learning curve, but with the current labs section its easier to test out the install guides17:06
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rluethiMeganR: there shouldn't be. Everything in training-guides that deviates from the openstack-manuals install-guide is suspicious.17:07
dbiteto be more precise basic-install-guides under training-guides17:07
MeganRok - we can discuss this in more detail offline, I will look at scheduling some time on Thursday, when Shilla is back17:07
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rluethiwhat dbite said :).17:07
dbitesure thing17:07
dbiterluethi: you just freaked me out ;)17:08
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dbiteany questions for the docs sub-team?17:08
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dbiterluethi: lets move on17:09
rluethi#topic upstream17:10
*** openstack changes topic to "upstream (Meeting topic: training-guides)"17:10
sarob_I got a sec17:10
rluethisarob: cool. your stage.17:10
sarob_I can't get epicslide to build on osx17:10
sarob_Only ubuntu17:10
matjazpsarob_: what about landslide?17:11
sarob_So I PDF support will be delayed a bit17:11
sarob_Landslide is it17:11
dbitematjazp: the problem with landslide is PDF support17:11
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sarob_So HTML slides only for right now17:11
sarob_Id like to get some feedback on the dir structure17:12
rluethisarob: any idea how hard it would be to fix epicslide?17:12
sarob_For the current upstream patch17:12
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matjazpdbite: maybe we can ask Foundation for help with PrinceXML for PDF geenration? I know its not opensource, but in the mean time... it gets things moving17:12
sarob_Rluethi: not sure. Something to work on longer term17:12
sarob_Short term we only need HTML I believe17:13
dbitematjazp: we need to push opensource as much as possible17:13
sarob_Dbite: agreed17:13
rluethi#info epicslide doesn't build on OS X. We need to stay with landslide for the time being (which means no PDF generation).17:13
dbitesarob_: I think we should proceed with landslide and try to get the PDF support in eventually17:13
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matjazpsarob_: dbite: sure, but I see it as a tool--- much like Oxygen for XML editing...17:13
sarob_Gotta go17:14
rluethimatjazp: Oxygen is another problem, not an example to follow :).17:14
dbitematjazp: Oxygen is not exactly a good example in this case17:14
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dbiteI use VIM to write XML code17:14
matjazpyes, I know.. but it gets the job done17:14
rluethisarob: we can't give such tools to volunteers and students, that's bad.17:14
dbitewith LandSlide we officially lock down17:14
dbitethe RST is there to be used by people17:15
dbiteso someone can volunteer in and use PrinceXML17:15
dbitebut we should try to keep it out of upstream code17:15
dbitedoes it make sense?17:15
rluethi#action sarob will try to get upstream material merged soonish.17:16
matjazpdbite: no, I mean that PrinceXML can be used only at Foundations's servers, for ppl to load PDFs... not as a tool that everyone needs to have on theirs coms17:16
dbiteok, makes sense17:16
matjazpwe just need to deliver PDFs to DL17:16
dbiteI would suggest asking this to Sarob during the next meeting17:17
rluethisorry, I got everyone off track. Any comments on the directory structure?17:17
rluethidirectory structure for upstream materials?17:17
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dbiteI think what reed has proposed is a good direction to start with17:17
dbitefor the presentation17:17
matjazprluethi: just start the ball rolling, we can change it later ;)17:18
reedrluethi, afaik landslide generates pdf17:18
rluethiif anyone else is interested, have a look here:17:18
rluethireed: I thought it only does so with PrinceXML.17:18
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matjazpreed: did you try to do it without PrinceXML?17:19
reedrluethi, you may be right, I never tried pdf17:19
rluethireed: there's your problem then :).17:19
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reedi don't see the point of pdf anyway :)17:19
rluethireed: nice for handouts, I guess.17:19
matjazpreed: students like to DL pdfs...17:19
matjazprluethi: exactly17:20
dbitecan we not use another technology/project for generating PDF's ?17:20
reedstudents are wrong :)17:20
matjazprluethi: they are bugging me if I don't give them materials for DL17:20
dbitereed: they are the future ;)17:20
reedgod save us from that future :)17:20
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* rluethi sighs17:20
rluethimoving on?17:20
rluethi#topic testing17:21
*** openstack changes topic to "testing (Meeting topic: training-guides)"17:21
rluethimatjazp: ?17:21
matjazpI started with associate guide17:21
matjazpmissing quizzes17:21
matjazpI have bugs reported17:21
rluethimatjazp: you reported bugs or you just have them?17:22
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matjazprluethi: I reported bugs, so ppl looking for something to contribute can chip in17:22
rluethimatjazp: are you getting help?17:23
sayali_We could use  for the presentation17:23
matjazprluethi: no, not at the moment17:23
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rluethiMeganR: that may be another thing your folks might be able to help out, learning stuff in the process.17:24
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MeganRok, we will add it to the list!17:24
rluethimatjazp: could you give them some help getting started on tests?17:24
dbitesayali_: can you take a lead on this?17:24
matjazpmaybe we can all report as many bugs as we can, so ppl can see where they can contribute17:24
matjazprluethi: yes, sure17:25
sayali_dbite, sure, we can generate pdfs too using that17:25
rluethigreat. all: please remember to see the "low hanging fruit" tag for bugs that are easy.17:25
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rluethiwhat's the proper tag again?17:25
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rluethiis it? cool, thanks!17:27
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rluethianything else for testing?17:27
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rluethi#topic infrastructure17:28
*** openstack changes topic to "infrastructure (Meeting topic: training-guides)"17:28
dbite#info training-guides team mark low-hanging-fruits for easy bugs17:28
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dbitewe have good progress for the labs17:28
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dbitecontroller node is almost done17:29
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dbiteI would suggest running the script for generating multi-node environment17:29
dbitebut its not ready yet17:29
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matjazpdbite: but if I remember correctly, base disks are finished, right?17:30
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rluethimatjazp: never finished, but working.17:30
dbitewhat do you mean by base disks to be precise?17:30
dbiteits not finished17:30
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matjazprluethi: yes... as long its functional, its ok ;)17:30
dbitematjazp: the openstack deployed on it is not yet functional17:31
rluethithe only change in basedisks in the past weeks was moving to Ubuntu 14.0417:31
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rluethihowever, we are at a point where several services should be up and running after the scripts have run.17:32
dbiteto be precise, we could claim that base disk is ready17:32
rluethiyou can test the services and see if they work.17:32
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dbiteopenstack deployed on it is only completed for Keystone, Glance for Controller Node17:33
dbiteNeutron and Nova for controller node are WIP17:33
matjazprluethi: dbite: yes, I'm looking at your code and scripts from time to time.. nice progress17:33
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rluethiI try to keep Vagrant working, but I'm not testing very often.17:34
rluethiIt will lack some features.17:34
dbitematjazp: thanks, but it needs lot of work17:34
rluethiI don't know yet how to work automated snapshots into vagrant.17:34
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rluethidbite: anything else on labs/infrastructure?17:35
matjazprluethi: I know I read somewhere about snapshost in wagrant.. If I find it, will forward17:35
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rluethimatjazp: there was a plugin, I tested it. but we don't have host-side scripting on Vagrant.17:36
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rluethimatjazp: we have to finish the scripts first, anyway.17:36
rluethi#topic misc17:37
*** openstack changes topic to "misc (Meeting topic: training-guides)"17:37
rluethianybody confused, shocked, depressed?17:37
rluethiany questions/issues you would like to have discussed?17:37
dbiteor puzzled or just landed here by mistake?17:37
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rluethidbite: then I don't care :).17:37
dbitehaha :)17:38
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sayali_can you think about impress.js for the lanslide issue?17:38
rluethisayali_: have you tried both? how do they compare?17:38
dbitedo you mean landslide?17:38
sayali_yes dbite17:38
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matjazpsayali_: how does it generate PDFs?17:39
dbitedoes it support PDF features?17:39
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sayali_rluethi, I haven't tried landslide, but impress is pretty good. It supports pdf too17:39
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rluethisayali_: I know impress (and similar tools) look cool, but easy of use for slide authors is very important.17:40
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dbiteif it can be created using MD or RST its should be tested out17:40
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rluethisayali_: impress might be too complex. if you have experience that shows otherwise, at least I would be interested.17:40
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sayali_rluethi, you can generate it using MD which is pretty easy17:41
sayali_I could look into it further and check the complexity17:41
rluethisayali_: upstream materials should land in the repo soon, maybe you could translate it (or some of it) to impress.17:42
rluethisayali_: that would give us something to compare.17:42
rluethisayali_: working PDF generation would definitely be a plus, since that's our current problem with landslide.17:43
sayali_rluethi, ok I will put up an initial patch to show how it works17:43
rluethi#action sayali will create a patch to help us evaluate impress.js as a possible alternative to landslide.17:44
rluethianything else?17:44
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rluethithanks everyone for being here!17:45
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"17:45
openstackMeeting ended Mon Aug 11 17:45:19 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:45
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lyxusanteaya, no meeting today  ?18:00
krtaylor#startmeeting third-party18:00
openstackMeeting started Mon Aug 11 18:00:13 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is krtaylor. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"18:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'18:00
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krtayloranyone here for third-party?18:00
anteayalyxus: patience my friend18:00
anteayalyxus: :D18:00
krtaylorum, I started on time :)18:00
joakrtaylor: yup :)18:00
anteayayou did18:00
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lyxuskrtaylor, I will find a lame excuse (NTP  is not working well on my computer)18:01
krtaylorHi everyone!18:01
joahi :)18:01
krtaylorok, let's get started18:02
krtaylorhere's the agenda:18:02
krtaylorand as a reminder to everyone18:02
krtaylor#topic Welcome & Reminder of OpenStack Mission18:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Welcome & Reminder of OpenStack Mission (Meeting topic: third-party)"18:02
krtaylor#info The OpenStack Open Source Cloud Mission: to produce the ubiquitous Open Source Cloud Computing platform that will meet the needs of public and private clouds regardless of size, by being simple to implement and massively scalable.18:03
krtayloralright, now that the formalities are out of the way18:03
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krtaylor#topic Review of previous week's open action items18:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Review of previous week's open action items (Meeting topic: third-party)"18:03
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krtaylorthe terminology patch has had good reviews18:03
krtaylorbut not yet merged18:04
krtaylorsweston, any comments?18:04
anteayalet's change the topic on that patch to third-party18:04
swestonyes, I will merge the patch this week18:04
anteayaso it gets picked up like the rest18:04
krtaylorsweston, ^^^ that would be really nice18:05
anteayasweston: well you can ask for it to be merged18:05
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anteayabut it is up to infra to merge it18:05
swestonanteaya: understood18:05
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anteayaand reviewing infra patches is a good way to help your patch get reviewed18:05
anteayalet me know if I can help you with that at all18:06
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krtaylorthanks anteaya, its so good to see you around here again18:06
anteayathanks good to be back18:06
krtaylorok, so, the next action was a carry over from the previous week, due to the infra meeting running over18:06
swestonanteaya: yes, welcome back as well!!18:07
anteayayou have done a great job keeping things moving along, all of you18:07
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anteayawell done18:07
krtaylorso, re: templates - it was on the agenda for the last meeting, but I had to join late18:07
krtaylorasselin__, are you around?18:08
joayay, templates18:08
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krtaylorwhen I got there it went off in a different direction, it switch to better documentation18:08
asselin__yes, infra team would like to have the 3rd party work moved to infra.18:08
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anteayawell to give some history, it came from infra18:08
anteayagot forked and now is in several different states of notes18:09
asselin__well...there's quite a few ppl using github.18:09
joaalso, the templates make sense being with infra (imho)18:09
krtayloroh, you are talking about jaypipes repo18:09
anteayaso infra would like what is in infra attended to18:09
anteayawhich is great18:09
asselin__we should move back to infra and have it there18:09
anteayasince is answers the question of where should it live18:09
anteayaso did you understand the steps to make that happen?18:10
krtaylorbut the discussion point was to have canned templates that would live in a dir in /config18:10
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krtaylornot sure how it went ot jaypipes repo and documentation18:10
asselin__sorry...maybe I'm not fully understanding what is a canned template.18:10
anteayaI think the larger issue is to have infra ci more consumable18:10
krtayloranyway, I think the bottom line was that we are going to try to improve the documentation with samples of the files inline, at least thats what I took away from the discussion18:11
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anteayaand the direction of making it more consumable is to have it in infra, and help with the work currently going on to make infra more consumable18:11
krtaylorasselin__, a template that is well documented with examples, sorry for the confusion18:11
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anteayaactually if we could help with the splitting out of some of the puppet modules that would go a long way18:11
asselin__my understanding / goal is to have a set of puppet scripts in infra that can be run/customized to run 3rd party18:12
krtayloryes, there are several people working to that goal18:12
anteayathat is the point of the split of the puppet modules18:12
anteayakrtaylor: who?18:12
krtaylorI know ArxCruz is, and has a github repo on the subject18:13
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asselin__yes, 3rd party ci would use the split puppet modules, and contribute to areas where they need to be more generic/reusable.18:13
krtaylorArxCruz, are you here?18:13
anteayawell doing the work in infra is kind of the point18:13
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swestonAnd I am working towards that as well18:13
anteayanibalizer and jesusaurus are working on it18:13
anteayaso sweston perhaps you can find them and see how you can help18:14
anteayafor starters reviews would be great18:14
krtaylorok, that seems like a great team to organize and drive the work18:14
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anteayawell the point is the team of two needs more help18:14
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nibalizerthere is a spec now18:14
anteayaso in addition to sweston, who can help?18:14
nibalizerlet me see if i can find it18:14
anteayayay nibalizer18:14
swestonyes, I was going to suggest that there be some more formal structure to this18:15
krtaylornice, a puppet consumability team18:15
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anteayasweston: thanks, we need a plan in addition to agreement18:15
anteayakrtaylor: that is fine but we need some members18:15
krtaylorthere is clarkb 's split spec, is that what you are thinking about?18:16
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anteayanibalizer: what do you need right now to move forward?18:16
krtaylorah, ok, no thats different18:16
anteayareviews? what?18:16
nibalizeroh wow this is openstack meeting18:17
nibalizeri thought we were in infra18:17
swestonI have a few more ideas regarding making puppet more consumable18:17
anteayanibalizer: glad you are here18:17
nibalizerwhat we need is to get consensus18:17
nibalizerthen do an example mod18:17
nibalizerthen slam the rest out18:17
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anteayanibalizer: consensus amougst whom18:17
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nibalizerwe talked about this at the last infra meeting18:17
nibalizeranteaya: infra cores mostly18:18
nibalizerwith myself and jesusaurus18:18
anteayanibalizer: and let's use gentle words in this space please18:18
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anteayanibalizer: great, so third party folks, do review18:18
jesusaurusanteaya: yes, reviews. we have a good idea of how we are going to move forward, but the spec still feels like its not very well fleshed-out to me18:18
anteayaand stay in contact with nibalizer about the progress of this spec18:18
anteayajesusaurus: great thank you, so third party folks, we can review this spec18:19
anteayakrtaylor: can you make that an action item pleease?18:19
krtaylorwill do18:19
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nibalizeralong with making puppet more re-usable, we're working on getting a lot of the stuff that is hardcoded in the openstack_project module moved into a hiera directory18:19
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anteayanibalizer: awesome, now many folks in third party might not have much familiarity with puppet18:20
nibalizeri would expect those changes to be comming along very soon since we have a lot of agreement on how to do that and the patchset well like18:20
anteayanibalizer: so if you have any documenations suggestions, that would be great18:20
krtaylor#action third-party review and sync in infra on
jesusaurusand also working on moving things from other modules into the openstack_project module as appropriate18:20
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anteayanibalizer: nice18:20
nibalizeranteaya: as it lands, ill add documentation on 'what does this mean for me?' kind of questions18:20
nibalizerexplaining use and reasoning18:20
anteayajesusaurus: thanks, if you could create an etherpad with easy steps, we can do our best to help18:20
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anteayawe want to help but we don't have much expertise here yet18:21
krtaylorwell, some have more than others18:21
anteayabreaking things into small clearly actionable items would be great for us18:21
anteayakrtaylor: yes18:21
krtaylorbut prob few expert level18:21
anteayawell I have no puppet, so I am speaking for myself here18:22
krtaylorok, good discussion, anything else on that topic?18:22
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swestonI have one suggestion, has anyone else thought it would be a good idea to have some code tying the puppet modules together?18:23
krtaylorsweston, expand18:23
anteayasweston: let's review what we have here first18:23
anteayaand then have an item on next week's agenda18:23
jesusaurussweston: we will definitely need something like that in order to test multiple modules in an ecosystem18:24
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anteayais that fair?18:24
krtayloragreed, sweston wait till open floor, lets move on18:24
joa<- no idea, puppet noob18:24
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krtaylorthen the next on last weeks - New Nova requirements, that was my action and I forgot about it18:24
swestonI will wait for open floor, then18:24
swestonkrtaylor: please continue ;-)18:24
krtaylorbut as it turns out, that is prob ok, it hasnt been discussed in detail yet18:24
krtaylorit would be good for anyone with nova drivers to get involved here18:25
krtaylorI'd like to see a test to function breakdown, but that is later18:25
krtayloranyway, so we'll carry that action for another week18:26
krtaylorok, next18:26
krtaylor#topic Announcements18:26
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: third-party)"18:26
krtayloranyone with any announcements?18:26
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anteayawell I think mine are in announcements18:26
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krtayloryes, anteaya18:27
krtayloryou have the floor18:27
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anteayaDifference between program and project (anteaya)18:27
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anteayaso there was a question last week18:28
anteayaabout the difference between programs and projects18:28
anteayaso if we look at this file I linked18:28
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krtaylorno, it was me using the wrong term18:28
krtaylormy bad18:28
anteayawe see that programs at the larger group18:28
krtaylorI "said" one when I meant the other18:28
anteayaprograms have projects18:29
anteayaprojects are repos18:29
anteayathought I would clarify18:29
krtayloryep, good for reference, I should be more crisp18:29
anteayajsut to ensure we were all on the same page18:29
anteayamany are confused18:29
anteayaand not everyone knows about this reference in the governance repo18:29
anteayawhich is our canonical repo for this kind of reference18:29
anteayaso that's it18:29
anteayaany questions?18:30
anteayaso next item18:30
anteaya#info Sometime this week third party ci accounts will all be evaluated to ensure " CI" is on the end of the name (anteaya)18:30
anteayaso we have a patch up18:30
anteayait changes the js in gerrit gui18:30
krtayloranteaya, are you doing that switch over?18:31
anteayait collects everything ending in " CI" at the end of the full name18:31
anteayaand puts then in a seperate table18:31
anteayawell I don't have gerrit permissions yet18:31
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anteayaso I have to co-ordinate with jeblair or SergeyLukjanov for the rename18:32
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anteayabut we want the patch in effect18:32
anteayaso we need to rename the accounts18:32
anteayathis pass will probably just be sticking CI on the end of all the accounts18:32
anteayaso the js will work18:32
* krtaylor needs to review it18:32
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anteayaand since renaming all the things so the names reflect the activity of the account will take some time, it will probably be a seperate renaming18:33
krtayloranteaya,  is this happening with the rename format?18:33
krtayloror just appending -ci18:33
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anteayaI don't know yet, since i have to talk to jeblair about it and he is away today18:33
anteayawe are appending " CI" to the full name of the account18:34
anteayaand probably doing obvious changes like removing testing from the end if it is there18:34
krtaylorsure, makes sense18:34
anteayathat is the general gist18:34
krtayloranything else? questions anyone?18:34
anteayathe likelihood someone will be upset exists but we need the js in place18:35
anteayaso it is a risk I am willing to take18:35
krtayloranteaya, agreed18:35
krtaylorit has to be managable18:35
anteayathat's it from me18:35
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krtaylorthanks anteaya18:35
krtaylorok, onward18:35
anteayaand my lunch pickup has arrived so I am out for the rest18:35
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anteayaI will read the logs when I am back18:35
joafor reviewing a patch18:36
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krtaylorthanks again anteaya18:36
joait's necessary18:36
joaso kudos for that :)18:36
krtaylor#topic OpenStack Program Items18:36
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Program Items (Meeting topic: third-party)"18:36
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krtaylorquick reminder18:36
krtaylorplease tag and review third-party patchsets18:37
krtaylorso we can keep track18:37
krtaylorand now joa18:37
krtayloryou have the floor18:37
joaalright :)18:37
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joaSoo, as discussed two or three meetings back, I was, as a newcomer thinking about how to improve the current docs18:38
krtaylorthis was making small changes instead of one big one, right18:38
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joaSo, I tried my hand at it after the meeting, putting my "feedback" into the newly created openstack-infra/manuals
joaHappened that jeblair from infra was afraid (rightly so) to have duplications of documentations through this18:39
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joaSo it would be nice to pick whatever pieces I wrote and re-work the current third_party.rst in docs (if i'm not mistaken?)18:39
joamost probably having some reworked into pointers to other documentation bits18:40
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krtaylorjoa, it is somewhat related to the template docs discussion, and consumability in general18:41
krtaylorit is always easier to make incremental change18:41
joayeah, so the big question for everyone is: which bits deserve to be used to improve the current docs18:41
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krtaylorjoa, maybe strip what is there and create an etherpad for the rest?18:42
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krtayloror didnt you have one18:42
* krtaylor goes looking18:42
joathere was an etherpad as the source yes18:42
joastill have the link at work, not here18:42
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krtaylorok, if you want help with sections, we can discuss here next week, or propose a section and we'll review18:43
joaabout that, I need yourn inputs, to see which bits should be kept and which not18:43
krtaylorok, generalize a list of sections to keep /or not18:44
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krtaylorsomething we can understand quickly, and lets put it on the agenda for enxt week18:45
krtaylorbut it needs to be summarized into areas in question18:45
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krtaylorso we can understand and discuss in this time format, else infra or email works too18:45
joawell taking jeblair's worries into account I'm sure some of the sections might only deserve a pointer to the right doc18:46
joa(and then maybe improving the other areas on the way)18:46
joaI might ping you on #infra then18:46
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joato have some discussions before the next meeting18:46
krtaylorthats fine18:46
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joaok, then i'm done :)18:47
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krtaylor#action joa and krtaylor to discuss doc improvement sections to focus on18:47
krtaylor#topic Deadlines & Deprecations18:48
*** openstack changes topic to "Deadlines & Deprecations (Meeting topic: third-party)"18:48
krtaylorany deadlines to communicate?18:48
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krtaylorI believe cinder was going to have everyone accounted by today18:49
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krtaylorthey have mid-cycle this week I believe18:49
joaWell, there was this deadline around today18:49
krtaylorwe might get a report next week18:50
krtaylorjoa, for cinder?18:50
joabut as far as I've discussed with DuncanT, it was first and foremost in order to push vendore to have a CI (yeah)18:50
hemanthravishould neutron third-party failures be discussed in the weekly neutron meeting?18:50
joaas for myself, I miss some configuration bits but i'm almost there, for instance;18:50
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krtaylorhemanthravi, they can be discussed here, wait until open floor at the end18:51
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krtaylorok, lets move on then18:51
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krtaylor#topic Highlighting a Program or Gerrit Account18:51
*** openstack changes topic to "Highlighting a Program or Gerrit Account (Meeting topic: third-party)"18:51
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krtaylorthis is quick since there was not any added to the agenda :)18:52
krtaylorok so...18:52
krtaylor#topic Open Discussion18:52
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: third-party)"18:52
krtaylorlyxus, did you have something?18:53
krtaylorhemanthravi, this is the place, anything?18:53
hemanthravione convergence ci is failing due to a change and is logged as a bug
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1353309 in neutron "l3 agent is failing with unsupported version endpoint does not support rpc version 1.3" [High,Confirmed]18:53
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* krtaylor reads18:54
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hemanthravithe bug needs to be fixed for the ci to stop failing18:54
krtaylorhemanthravi, can you expand on your test environment?18:55
hemanthraviwe have a plugin that runs against our third-party controller18:55
krtaylorare there systems at different install levels maybe? icehouse/havana?18:56
hemanthravithe setup launches a vm, deploys the code using devstack and runs through the tests18:56
hemanthravithe devstack script is failing18:56
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krtaylorhemanthravi, this may be something to bring up in -neutron18:58
krtaylorsince we are running out of time18:58
hemanthraviok, will do thanks18:58
krtaylor2 minutes18:58
krtaylorquick question?18:58
krtaylorok, that this weeks meeting then18:59
krtaylorthanks everyone18:59
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"18:59
openstackMeeting ended Mon Aug 11 18:59:52 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)18:59
openstackMinutes (text):
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devanandahi! who's here for the Ironic meeting?19:00
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devanandarloo? Shrews? adam_g?19:01
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NobodyCamis rloo back?19:01
devanandaok, that's just about everyone19:01
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devananda#startmeeting ironic19:01
openstackMeeting started Mon Aug 11 19:01:40 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is devananda. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ironic)"19:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'ironic'19:01
devanandaHi! As usual, the agenda can be found here:19:01
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devananda#chair NobodyCam19:02
lucasagomesNobodyCam, yup, she was on today19:02
openstackCurrent chairs: NobodyCam devananda19:02
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NobodyCamlucasagomes: :)19:02
devanandahm, ok. I hope she's actually back -- there are some -2's she needed to lift last tiem I checked19:02
devananda#topic announcements19:02
*** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: ironic)"19:02
devanandarloo: hi! welcome back :)19:02
rloohi devananda.19:03
rloolifted ;)19:03
devanandaawesome, thanks19:03
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devanandaso, probably the biggest announcement for the week -- it's my last meeting before I'm on vacation19:03
devanandaI will probably be reachable on my cell phone if the planets align just-so ...19:03
NobodyCamdevananda: three weeks19:03
devanandabut really. From 8/18 - 9/3, I'm *GONE*19:03
devanandaI totally trust all of you :)19:04
lucasagomesheh o/19:04
devanandaespecially NobodyCam to run the meetings and lucasagomes to represent us in the weekly project sync's with ttx19:04
lucasagomesenjoy the holidays19:04
NobodyCamparty ar deva house19:04
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devanandamy goal for this week, and to a degree, this meeting, is to make sure all the plans are clear19:04
devanandaso ya'll do not feel blocked in my absense19:04
devanandaso as the meeting goes on, please raise any concerns about that in the relevant subject area19:05
devanandaalso -- the day after I get back is feature freeze!19:05
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devanandaone other small announcement - I've taken fedora support off the standing agenda19:06
devanandaaccording to dtantsur, it's been stable for a while, so we can free up that slot19:06
NobodyCamand our spec freeze today?19:06
matty_dubsNice work, dtantsur!19:06
NobodyCamawesome :)19:06
mrdagood job!19:06
devananda#topic release cycle status19:06
*** openstack changes topic to "release cycle status (Meeting topic: ironic)"19:06
devanandaso - as I said, featuer freeze is in 3 weeks19:07
JayFdevananda: I'd strongly suggest, esepecially given you're leaving and the status of the open specs that sit, that we go ahead and say we're done with spec approvals for J19:07
devanandaa few months back, I'd said feature proposal freeze would be this thursday. I'd actually like to close it today.19:07
devanandaJayF: exactly19:07
devanandaas point of reference, most (if not all) other projects closed their specs a few weeks ago19:07
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devanandaI wanted to wait until a week after our sprint. so here we are19:08
rloois it fair to change the date?19:08
rloo(not that I have any specs, but for those that do)19:08
NobodyCamawesome job everyone with reguard to our first round of specs19:08
devanandarloo: there has been PLENTY of time for folks to propose and iterate on specs19:08
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Shrewsyeah, good job on that, spec cores19:08
JayFrloo: The proposal freeze has already passed, and there are not any open specs, IMO, that are ready for Juno19:09
lucasagomessounds good... we gotta also talk maybe in the open discussion what we are doing with the specs that are in the queue and will be moved to K, if they should adhere to the new spec format first (having only an introduction) etc...19:09
devanandarloo: and all the ones that are left are actually ones I don't think we can do19:09
rlooahh, in that case, no need to change the date, just don't approve any cuz they aren't ready.19:09
harshada_kakadso cnt the open spec be approved ??19:09
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devanandaany cores or spec-cores object to closing spec reviews for Juno today?19:10
NobodyCamharshada_kakad: do you have a link?19:10
devananda(will give it a minute for folks to say something)19:10
rlooyeah, I object19:10
NobodyCamdevananda: yes please.19:10
harshada_kakadi had put up this in agenda too ...19:11
dtantsurharshada_kakad, what's the spec link for it?19:11
NobodyCamharshada_kakad: ya do you a spec up?19:11
lucasagomesharshada_kakad, there's a spec for it? or just the bp page?19:11
devanandaharshada_kakad: this BP was proposed after the spec-proposal deadline. I'm sorry, but it will have to wait for K.19:12
harshada_kakadsyeap just the BP page ..19:12
JayFdevananda: ++19:12
harshada_kakadi dnt have any spec ..19:12
devanandaharshada_kakad: and it needs a spec19:12
devanandarloo: would you prefer we simply dont approve any more, then close it officially on thursday?19:12
dtantsurharshada_kakad, please have a look at
harshada_kakadactually i am almost ready with the code cahnges ...19:12
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rloojust looking at the proposed timeline. Aug 14 was supposed to be a spec review day and sept 4 unmerged J spec proposals must rebase on K19:12
* NobodyCam makes note to self to watch bp's more closely19:12
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JayFrloo: There are no spec proposals in the pipeline that will be merged for J that aren't already, afaict19:13
rloodevananda: yeah, I'd prefer not closing it officially cuz that goes against the proposed timeline. I don't know if there is someone who isn't here, that might want to push for their spec to be approved.19:13
devanandarloo: in retrospect, that was a mistake on my part. Alsow hat JayF just said19:13
JayFrloo: NobodyCam and I have worked really hard (along with others) to get the specs landed that are going to have a chance at getting in for J19:14
devanandarloo: as JayF said, there are more specs proposed which I think could land in J -- they are too contentious, or were proposed too late.19:14
JayFrloo: if you have a specific spec in mind that we should reconsider, please point it out and lets take a look at it19:14
rloodevananda, JayF: if that is the case, then I guess it is OK to change the date/make it official since none seem ready.19:14
NobodyCamdevananda: we can concider the close to EOD today?19:14
devanandaNobodyCam: sure19:14
harshada_kakadyeap that would really be better ..19:15
NobodyCamrloo: harshada_kakad: I'm happy to look at specs until eod if needed19:15
rlooI don't have any specs in mind, I just want to make sure that we are being fair to folks that might not be here to voice their opinion.19:15
dtantsurjust a reminder: we're way past spec proposal deadline19:15
devananda#agreed spec freeze moved to EOD today, instead of EOD thursday.19:15
NobodyCamrloo: if its supper critical folks can ask for an execption if they are not here now19:16
harshada_kakadi guess in BP i have put up all the deatils ...19:16
NobodyCamthat does not say they'll get it19:16
devananda#info None of the remaining specs proposed in time for Juno are likely to be landed anyway (they are contentious / related to discovery in some way / need to be discussed at the summit)19:16
devanandaharshada_kakad: your proposal for seamicro is really too late in the cycle. It should be proposed once Kilo opens.19:17
JayFharshada_kakad: this lays out our process for getting things spec'd for K19:17
harshada_kakadohh ok ..:(19:17
JayFharshada_kakad: And feel free to start writing code, and put it up as WIP, although we're likely to -2 until K opens19:17
lucasagomes+1 ^19:17
dtantsurdevananda, heh, we need to solve this miscomunication somehow...19:17
JayFharshada_kakad: I know it's no fun, we have to do that for many of our features we're using at Rackspace, and work to get them in alter :)19:17
devanandadtantsur: I think we just did :)19:17
harshada_kakadcnt we do anything to go in JUNO ...19:17
devanandaharshada_kakad: bug fixes19:17
devanandaharshada_kakad: please come fix bugs for Juno. or write docs :)19:18
harshada_kakadi have really worked hard for it ..19:18
harshada_kakadyeap i have actually stared looking after that as well ....19:18
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devanandaharshada_kakad: that's nice. but this is an open community of developers, with a process that we all adhere to19:18
harshada_kakadbut it would be good if mine this BP cud go in ....19:18
devanandaharshada_kakad: I am delighted taht you want to contribute to Ironic, and we'll all be happy to help. but it's too late for a new feature in Juno.19:19
harshada_kakadyeap i understand tht ...19:19
devanandamoving on19:19
dtantsursorry, can we leave it to open discussion?19:19
devanandawe have A LOT still to do in the next three weeks19:19
devanandathere are 7 BP in "needs code review"19:19
devanandaone unknown and one "started" ?19:19
lucasagomesyup expect me to poke the authors in the next weeks about the status of the approved specs/bp19:20
wanyenI don't see uefi boot on the juno list.  The spec has been approved.19:20
devanandayea, lucas is goign to be tracking the progress towards Juno-3 while I"m gone19:20
devanandawanyen: thanks. Let me fix that19:20
wanyendeva, thanks!19:20
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devanandaare there any other specs approved but not relfected on the juno-3 status page?19:20
devanandaI've tried to get them all, but ...19:20
devanandaoh, but I haven't updated it since friday :)19:21
Shrewsdevananda: i had one for nodelocked retry19:21
lucasagomesdevananda, the drac one confuses me... the boot management is part of a interface that was already merged I don't understand why we need a spec to actually implement one already agreed interface... but anyway, I will check with ifarkas the status of that19:21
rameshg87devananda, there is one more. ilo virtual media-ipa deploy driver.19:21
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devanandaShrews: didn't that get completed in J2 ?19:22
dtantsurlucasagomes, he's on PTO, I guess will get back to it soon19:22
lucasagomesdtantsur, yup19:22
Shrewsdevananda: ah right, thats j3. nm19:22
JayFlucasagomes: the drac proposal that I -2'd was related to node discovery and raid configuration. I think the drac power driver is already in.19:22
devanandaJayF: yep19:22
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lucasagomesJayF, yeah, the power is... I'm talking about the spec for Drac to implement the management interface19:22
JayFlucasagomes: do you have a link?19:23
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devanandawanyen, rameshg87: ilo-virtualmedia-ip and uefi-boot are now targeted19:23
lucasagomesJayF, which is grand, it was approved but I'm more questioning whether we needed a spec for that or not19:23
devanandaplease update the BP statuses19:23
lucasagomesJayF, (will get the spec link)19:23
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mrdaI think we should clarify the *purpose* of specs - is it for new interfaces, or significant new work?  That difference might account for DRAC power management.19:23
dtantsurlucasagomes, I remember having some discussion with Imre on it, so I guess it was helpful :)19:23
wanyendeva, ilo vitualmedia now has two spec.  should we call them out seperately?19:23
JayFlucasagomes: the spec is merged19:23
JayFlucasagomes: is what the spec link goes to19:23
JayFlucasagomes: it's already in19:23
lucasagomesJayF, yup it's...19:24
devanandawanyen: each spec needs a separate BP on launchpad19:24
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devanandadtantsur: you're right -- we need to make the PROCESS more clear19:24
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wanyendeva, so we will put both ilo vitual edia iscsi and ipa sboth under ilo virtual media deploy driver bucket19:25
devananda#info we should better document and communicate the spec process (interactions with launchpad in particular) for Kilo19:25
dtantsurI came to an unusual conclusion that specs can be actually helpful for refactoring19:25
dtantsurbut that's another long story :)19:26
devanandawanyen: every spec requires a separate blueprint on launchpad, with the same name as the spec file19:26
rameshg87wanyen, we have two blueprints right now - one for ilo virtual media-iscsi and another one for ilo virtual media-ipa19:26
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wanyenreamesh, ok. So, my question is taht we should put both specs on teh Juno list19:26
lucasagomesdtantsur, heh bring to the open topics? sounds interesting19:26
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devanandaso, there are a lot of blueprints (featuers) targeted to Juno319:27
dtantsurlucasagomes, maybe19:27
wanyenright now the juno list only listed ilo virtul media deploy driver.  Shouldwe update it to reflect the new bps?19:27
devanandafar far more than we had aimed at any other milestone in this (or the last) cycle19:27
rameshg87wanyen, both the specs are now in the juno list. devananda just updated it now.19:27
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wanyenraemesh, ok.  Tx.  Sorry I didn't look at the newest list.19:28
NobodyCamdevananda: we have more folks working on ironic this cycle too :)19:28
devanandalucasagomes: what's blocking the new mgmt iface BP from being "implemented" ?19:28
devanandaNobodyCam: true :-D19:28
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lucasagomesdevananda, tempest19:28
lucasagomesdevananda, having tempest test to the new api was part of the spec, there's a patch up in tempest (will get the link) that still needs to be merged19:29
devanandalucasagomes: awesome. please comment on the whiteboard to taht effect.19:30
lucasagomeswill do19:30
devanandaI've updated priority on two BPs19:30
devanandabumped to LOW19:30
devanandabumped to HIGH19:30
devanandaare there any concerns about the current prioritization of BPs?19:30
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JayFAside: Support external DHCP has code up for review already, and I'm sure Ellen would appreciate reviews if someone can spare a moment.19:31
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jroll^ it's looking pretty close19:31
NobodyCamshould we bump ilo-virtualmedia-ipa to high?19:31
JayFThe person authoring that change on Rackspaces' side has their internship end on Friday, and it'd be very nice if we could get this merged before she leaves.19:32
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devanandaI don't see code for on its whiteboard (jsut a link to the spec)19:32
devanandarameshg87: is there code up for that yet?19:32
rameshg87devananda, code is not raised for review yet for uefi19:33
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lucasagomesJayF, added to my todo list here, will review it tomorrow morning19:33
JayFThanks lucas19:33
devanandarameshg87: how soon do you expect it to be ready?19:33
wanyendeva, the code is alomost ready.  we should be able to put up on review very soon19:33
wanyenI met the code for uefi boot19:34
devanandawanyen: thanks. at this point, there are 3 weeks to land it. please post the code soon19:34
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wanyendev, will do.19:34
devanandaok -- any last minute questions on the plan for J3 befoer we move on?19:35
devanandawe're past the midpoint and still have all the subteam reports19:35
NobodyCamdeva with you gone .. at what point should we bump blueprints with no code? or no progress?19:35
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devanandadon't bump them19:36
devanandanag the owners19:36
devanandaI'll get back and do a sanity check with lucas on the progress19:36
devanandaassuming ironic still works, I'll tag Juno3 and start the feature freeze19:36
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JayFWhat about any remaining open specs? At the end of the day -2 them and welcome them to resubmit when K opens?19:37
devanandaanything that was really close can apply for a FFE at that point19:37
devanandaJayF: yep. and FFE's19:37
jroll"assuming ironic still works"19:37
* jroll breaks everything19:37
dtantsurI like it too ^^^19:37
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devanandaby that i mean, like, somejhow if our gate is broken (or all of openstacks' gate is broken) then I won't, you know, tag anything19:37
* NobodyCam pokes jroll and dtantsur with a stick :-p19:37
devanandaok, moving on :)19:38
devananda#topic subteam status reports19:38
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devanandaadam_g: hi!19:38
devanandaadam_g: you've done some awesome things with tempest lately - -can you (link to a) summary?19:38
adam_gmassive summary of all CI related stuff @
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adam_gtwo of the most urgent topics is grenade testing and getting tempest smoke tests passing, grenade is dependent on the latter19:39
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devanandaooh, and thanks for using topics :)19:39
adam_gi think the majority of the grenade stuff is up on gerrit and ready for review, there may be some related work elsewhere to get stuff in the gate and actually passing19:40
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adam_gShrews has been picking up the final loose ends up on the tempest front and i believe he's got some final patches up as well19:40
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adam_gsome of the large patch queue has started to land, i think others will probably be blocked until sdague is back from vacation next week19:40
adam_gbut im hoping to have most of it flushed through before then, so we can work with him and infra in getting this stuff enabled in the gate19:41
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devanandayea. we need both of those in place fairly soon19:41
JayFIf anyone has pull with any of the devstack folks, I know IPA has two patches outstanding to openstack-dev/devstack for IPA devstack support to land. Which works from my testing and jroll's testing19:41
adam_gdevananda, by feature freeze, right?19:41
devanandanoav  will probably grant us a FFE for the migration tests19:41
JayFThen the reviews are already up to allow IPA to test as well19:41
lucasagomesyup I got the iPXE patch on devstack as well19:41
devanandabut only if it looks REALLY close to done at that point19:41
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lucasagomesjroll, btw, I updated the iPXE patch to workaround that cleanup/apache error19:42
lucasagomesin case u wanna try it again19:42
jrolllucasagomes: oh, nice, I'll check that out again19:42
NobodyCamlucasagomes: link to ipxe patch19:42
adam_gdevananda, ack.19:42
jrolllucasagomes: was that fix in the devstack patch or?19:42
jrollok, cool19:43
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adam_gits worth noting  that we wont be able to enable parallel tempest testing until a new version of eventlet is released upstream, to address  we will probably just need to keep it smoke-serial until that is released, and then flip the switch once the new version is available on the slaves19:43
devanandadtantsur: any big news on bugs? if not, I'd like to skip this time as we need to focus on features for the next 3 weeks.19:43
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1321787 in tripleo "Paramiko does not properly work with eventlet concurrency" [High,Triaged]19:43
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dtantsurOpen: 133 (+2). 8 new (+1), 35 in progress (-1), 0 critical, 15 high (+1) and 8 incomplete (-1)19:43
jrollJayF: fyi it seems like most of devstack-core is on vacation :(19:43
dtantsurthat's it, I still need help triaging some bugs19:43
dtantsurthat require deeper knowledge of nova19:44
dtantsurthat's all from me19:44
NobodyCamdtantsur: please feel free to ping /me i'm happy to help19:44
devanandadtantsur: thanks. feel free to poke me on IRC if there are specific bugs that you want eyes on. I used to be nova-core, so I can probably help with those19:44
devanandadtantsur: or poke comstud - he knows much more about nova than I do :)19:44
dtantsurack, thanks!19:44
jrollyes, give everything to comstud :P19:45
devanandaadam_g: thanks! I hope sdague is understanding that there are things outside of our control that prevent the tempest parallel tests19:45
devanandajroll: any quick updates on IPA?19:45
comstuddtantsur: ya, just let me know what you need to know about nova19:45
JayFdevananda: jroll is distracted19:46
jrolldevananda: hi!19:46
JayFdevananda: in his place, I'll say19:46
jrollI'll say what JayF was going to say :P19:46
* JayF upstaged19:46
jrollour main priority this week is getting check jobs in for the IPA driver19:46
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NobodyCamwill the reall jroll please stand up19:46
jrollthis email outlines most of tht work:
jrollNobodyCam: lolol19:46
devanandajroll: good stuff. Oh, that should have also tagged [QA] on there19:47
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jrollgah, yeah :|19:47
devanandayou may need to poke them when theyre all back from vacation too :p19:47
jrollso, it seems most of devstack-core is on vacation until tuesday19:47
jrollyeah :P19:47
devanandaalso, I'm going to suggest that perhaps IPA testing stops at check for now, so we don't overcomplicate things while merging things with Nova19:48
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devanandaGheRivero: hi! any updates on Oslo?19:48
GheRiverooslo.utils landed in ironic last week and the oslo.incubator modules were also updated.19:48
JayFdevananda: I strongly disagree, but we can talk about that outside of the meeting.19:48
devananda#info oslo.utils landed in ironic last week and the oslo.incubator modules were also updated.19:49
GheRiverothe only missing point is updating the policy mechanish
GheRiveronothing more in the short term19:49
devanandaGheRivero: I realized we are also not testing DB migrations in our gate still :(19:49
GheRiveroyes i see that this weekend. working on that19:49
devanandathanks much19:49
JayFGheRivero: question for you; should we (in IPA) be doing occassional oslo.incubator syncs? Is that something you should do? Does it matter?19:50
NobodyCam*10 minute bell*19:50
GheRiveroi hope to have something earlier this week19:50
devanandamrda: hi! you (we) are up :)19:50
GheRiveroJayF: I'll take a look to that,19:50
JayFGheRivero: thanks!19:50
mrdaSo the 10,000 foot view is that the scheduler has merged into Nova19:50
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mrdaand we're onto the driver proper19:50
mrdathe driver is in 5 chunks (starting with
mrdaand the first one is ready to go.19:51
mrdaSo I've been out for a week, getting back up to speed just as Deva disappears19:51
devanandamrda: I merged a few patches from ironic into those 5 chunks last week, andthere are a few more that we may want to merge19:51
devanandamrda: all my notes are on the whitebaord19:51
devanandaalso, dan has comments outstanding on chunk 319:52
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mrdathat's about it really - except that we need quick turnarounds when we propose ironic patches as we don't have long19:52
devananda#info DO NOT approve changes to ironic/nova/* without coordinating with mrda or devananda19:52
mrdanova will be strick on timelines, so we need all of these done by J319:52
devanandaalso that ^19:52
mrdaand thanks Deva for your outstanding work over the last week while I was on leave :)19:53
wanyendeva, what's teh plan for fixing the instance info gor ilo & ipa driver?19:53
lucasagomesmrda, there's a patch from dan that you +1, so I +2 it today assuming you have seem that19:53
devanandaif there are *critical* fixes for the ironic/nova/* code, please get them worked out *now*19:53
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lucasagomesmrda, this
mrdalucasagomes: I'll check later (not awake yet)19:53
devanandathe cost of changing these 5 chunks, in human time, is quite high19:54
lucasagomesawesome, ok19:54
mrdalucasagomes: but thanks19:54
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devanandait's about 5x the time to update a simple patch19:54
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devanandaand I''ve given mrda full permission to poke all of you with sharp objects if you go changing any code in the nova driver (or its unit tests)19:54
devanandawanyen: it's fixed19:55
NobodyCam*5* minute bell19:55
wanyendeva, great!  thanks!19:55
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1353631 in ironic "adding a new driver requires changing" [Medium,Fix committed]19:55
devanandaadam_g: the migration code -- has it been proposed to ironic now?19:55
adam_goh yes!19:55
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adam_gcould use some review19:56
devanandathat should be landed as a prereq to the grenade tests too, right?19:56
devanandacool, thanks19:56
adam_gdevananda, yeah, totally forgot to mention19:56
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devanandathanks everyone for the subteam reports -- great progress on doing all the things!19:57
devananda#topic Open Discussion19:57
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devananda3 minutes left19:57
NobodyCamwho added
devanandathere's a question on refactoring iscsi & pxe19:57
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devanandait's a direction we want to go in Kilo. this doen't go all the way. is it even helpful? I dunno.19:58
wanyenwe like to use ipmitool sendsensordat ato ceilometer and remote console inilo driver.  can we just file a bug to for the mix and match fucntions?19:58
devanandarameshg87_: ^19:58
dtantsurI still think the split is useful as it is19:58
harshada_kakadhey if i submit spec today EOD can there be cahnce for approval?19:58
lucasagomesthis has to deal with the new boot interface that we want to have for kilo?19:58
NobodyCami'd like more time to make sure we do the split right. so I'm not sold that rushing it in J is worth while19:59
devanandaharshada_kakad: no. sorry. I already explained that the PROPOSAL DEADLINE has passed several weeks ago.19:59
dtantsurharshada_kakad, I'm sorry, it's very unlikely. For many of us it's already EOD and we're past proposal deadline19:59
rameshg87_devananda, NobodyCam, it doesn't go all the way to separate interfaces right now.19:59
lucasagomesyeah, the pxe driver is bloated and splitting may be good, just wondering how the refactor could affect ongoing work for the specs (which should be priorized)19:59
devanandaharshada_kakad: in the future, please consider filing the proposal before implementing the code in private20:00
devanandaharshada_kakad: that will help you to align with our development process, and help us to be aware of the work you're doing so that tohers don't duplicate it20:00
harshada_kakadyeap ..20:00
NobodyCambeep. thats time20:00
devanandalucasagomes: right -- that's a VERY good point20:00
harshada_kakadyes sure20:00
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rameshg87_devananda, NobodyCam, but helps to split up the code and make it available for ilo driver for use for now. we can have it go in the separate boot and deploy interfaces in K.20:00
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devananda#info concern that may adversely impact work on prioritized specs for Juno3. perhaps bump to after?20:01
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NobodyCamcontinue in channel?20:01
devanandacheers -- thanks everyone for another great meeting :)20:01
dtantsurdevananda, well, we can just give it low prioirty :)20:01
NobodyCamthank you all :)20:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"20:01
openstackMeeting ended Mon Aug 11 20:01:30 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)20:01
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jrollthanks y'all20:01
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mesteryOK, lets get started.21:00
mestery#startmeeting networking21:00
openstackMeeting started Mon Aug 11 21:00:42 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mestery. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking)"21:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'networking'21:00
mestery#link Agenda21:00
mesteryI expect this to be a boring meeting ...21:00
mestery#topic Announcements21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking)"21:01
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* salv-orlando bored already21:01
mesteryI'm sure people have forgotten, but Juno-3 is approaching fast21:01
mesteryPlease spend some time reviewing things for Juno-3.21:01
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mesteryI expect a nice gate crush the closer we get to both FPF and FF.21:01
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mesteryAlso, just a note that Neutron policies are documented on the wiki21:02
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mesteryAnd one final announcment from the Ryu team:21:02
mestery#info the Ryu plugin is being deprecated in Juno21:02
mestery#info Juno is the last release to support Ryu plugin21:02
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mestery#info The Ryu team will be focusing on the ofagent going forward21:02
mesteryAny other announcements?21:02
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reedwhat's the impact on users of the Ryu plugin?21:02
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mesteryreed: There is no upgrade provided by the ryu team per their notes21:03
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reedcool, thanks21:03
mesteryreed: It seems it will be a manual move to ML2+ofagent21:03
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yamamotoi plan to write some text to document how to transit to eg. ofagent21:03
mesteryyamamoto: Thanks!21:03
emaganayamamoto: we will need to update some guides21:04
emaganayamamoto: I will touch based with you offline21:04
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yamamotoemagana: thank you21:04
mestery#action emagana to work with yamamoto offline on doc updates for ryu plugin deprecation.21:04
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mesteryThanks emagana!21:04
mestery#topic Bugs21:05
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mesteryenikanorov mentioned that we have some new bugs which are due to the DVR merge, and that he and armax are on these.21:05
mesteryarmax: Any particular links you want to share at this slot?21:05
armaxmestery, enikanorov: these seem to cause log noise more than anything ele21:05
mesteryarmax: OK, that's less serious then. :)21:05
armaxmestery: still treating them seriously, working on them :)21:06
mesteryarmax: ++21:06
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armaxmestery: but as far as I can tell, no major gate outage or anything like that21:06
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mesteryarmax: That echoed enikanorov's thoughts as well, thanks!21:06
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mestery#topic Team Discussion Topics21:07
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mesteryFirst item is about rotating the team meeting time.21:07
mesteryI think marun proposed this to the agenda.21:07
marunWe discussed this at summit and it got lost21:07
mesteryThoughts from people on a rotating meeting?21:07
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mesterymarun: ++21:07
ajo_that'd be nice,  it's very late here ;)21:08
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mesteryThis ultimately ties into another item which I doubt we'll get to today (sub-team culling and life cycle management, and how this meeting is run).21:08
marunIdeally we would rotate the time between two slots so that folks in non-NA timezones would have an easier time participating21:08
mesteryBut we've only got 52 minutes left in this meeting ...21:08
marunTempest already does this, btw21:08
markmcclainceilometer and nova too21:08
emagana+1 let's do it!21:09
reedyeah, I think it's fairly well accepted practice in other teams, too21:09
mesteryI'll take an action to take care of setting this up then.21:09
marunmestery: +121:09
mestery#action mestery to setup rotating neutron team meeting schedule21:09
mesteryI'll start a thread on the mailer with some proposed time slots. Fair?21:09
markmcclainthe rotation would be good… I think we should implement starting in Sept which is after FF21:09
marunfair to me21:09
mesterymarkmcclain: It may take us long to come to an agreement on the mailer.21:10
mesteryOK, good, agreement!21:10
ArxCruzkrtaylor: hey, sorry, I was finishing things for the travel21:10
gus+1 (although I know the other time is going to end up worse for me ;)21:10
Sukhdev+1 - suggest we do the rotations after Juno21:11
mesteryOK, for the next topic, reed has kindly volunteered to run this portion of the meeting around the GBP Topic, how we got here, and how not to get here again in the future.21:11
mestery#chair reed21:11
openstackCurrent chairs: mestery reed21:11
mesteryreed: The floor is yours!21:11
reedyeah! the fun part :)21:11
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* sc68cal digs a foxhole 21:12
reedanyone wants to share their thoughts on how we got at this point?21:12
markmcclainreed: I'll start :)21:13
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reedgreat, thanks markmcclain, let's start21:13
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mscohenreed: curious what you mean by that?  For GBP, we have been working on this for some time.  We had a session in Atlanta on this and proposed a blueprint and have been running weekly meetings on the topic.21:14
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alagalah_mscohen: +121:14
reedwhat I mean is framing the current status of the discussion around GBP21:14
markmcclainmscohen: that's exactly what reed wants to establish how we got here21:14
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rkukuraNot sure we’d even get agreement on where we are.21:15
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reedin Atlanta a working group was established, right? and the group met weekly21:15
* mestery notes if we can't agree on where we are, we're bound to get to this exact (unknown) spot again soon.21:15
reedprogressing with code, sending patches in21:15
s3wongreed: actually in Hong Kong a working group was established21:15
SumitNaiksatamreed: this actually started in HK21:15
SumitNaiksatamthe blueprint was registeted in launchpad on oct 24th 201321:16
reedwho/what triggered the effort?21:16
markmcclainreed: so we've ended up at this point because for the most part while the group based policy team has been iterating in the open for some time there has been a large contingent of the core largely disengaged from the discussion21:16
SumitNaiksatamit was followed up with a session in the HK summit in november 201321:16
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markmcclainthe reasons for disengagement are varied among the reviewers21:16
banixmarkmcclain: Yes that is why we are here. Agree.21:17
ivar-lazzaromarkmcclain: who was disengaged exactly?21:17
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reedSumitNaiksatam, just to be super clear: the discussion was at the *Design* summit, in HK and Atlanta, right ?21:17
markmcclainreed: yes this has come up twice21:17
SumitNaiksatamreed: yes, it started during that summit21:17
SumitNaiksatamreed: actually the blueprint was registered priror to the summit21:17
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mesteryreed: Yes, in HK and Atlanta.21:18
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reedSumitNaiksatam, what sparked the discussions? user requests? product management? personal interests? other?21:18
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salv-orlandoI feel like in Law & order21:18
salv-orlandoI see a prosecutor, but I see no judge21:18
markmcclainreed: all three21:18
emaganareed: I got the feeling this is going to be a long discussion and there are other topics to cover, can you establish a limit on the time invested in this discussion?21:19
SumitNaiksatammarkmcclain: i can list the following cores be engaged: markmcclain, rkukura, mestery, oleg, nati_ueno, armax emagana who have been giving feedback on the patches21:19
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markmcclainSumitNaiksatam: the level of engagement is not the same across21:19
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emaganasalv-orlando: +121:19
reedemagana, I can stop any time and chase you all individually :)21:19
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bloganis it a requirement that most cores are engaged for something of this magnitude get merged?21:19
SumitNaiksatammarkmcclain: agreed but that is because there is a pending -2 on the patch21:19
salv-orlandoreed as long as you’re not chasing me with a stick, it’s fine!21:19
mscohenwe have been investigating ways of creating more flexible abstractions for describing network resources.   that was the spark behind this.21:19
a_leemagana: there should be a timelimit on -2's with no follow up after the issues are addressed!!!21:19
emaganareed: not a bad idea... :-)21:19
mesteryblogan: Fair question.21:19
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markmcclainblogan: yes21:20
bloganmestery: that also bring up the question of how magnitude is measured21:20
reedso is there consensus that parts of the GBP efforts were done in parallel and without enough interaction with core development?21:20
markmcclainbecause this particular feature is sizeable21:20
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reedsalv-orlando, this is not the inquisition21:20
emaganaa_le: not sure what you mean.21:21
SumitNaiksatamreed: i would say a strong no to your question21:21
salv-orlandoreed: if it were we were probably not using internet!21:21
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marunThe group policy team has been very diligent about following the policies and procedures that are defined for the Neutron project.21:21
marunDespite this, the initiative has remained deeply divisive, as evidenced by the the traffic on the mailing list this past week.21:21
markmcclainmarun: that is mostly true21:22
marunI think this highlights the importance of the non-technical aspects of contributing to an open source project like Neutron.  It's not enough to discuss and implement.21:22
mesterymarun: good summary21:22
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reedmarun, SumitNaiksatam: why do you think it's such a hot topic?21:22
mscohenwhat is so divisive about it?21:22
reedor divisive, as you say?21:22
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marunThe importance of securing broad consensus on potentially contentious work cannot be understated.21:22
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SumitNaiksatamreed: its definitely a hot topic from a technical perspective21:22
marunAnd I think it's clear that such consensus has not yet been achieved for the policy effort.21:22
markmcclainreed: there are still pockets of the community that don't agree with the approach for a variety of reasons21:22
SumitNaiksatamreed: other than that i only see a set of vocal people talking against it21:22
reedmarun, indeed, I think it's pretty clear21:23
markmcclainmy -2 reflects that disagreement that I've heard from many all summer21:23
SumitNaiksatamreed: why do you say that its pretty clear?21:23
SumitNaiksatamokay lets take the case of the -221:23
reedso we got to this point because despite two summits and lots of meetings, online, offline, etc, there is still no consensus on the features?21:23
banixso I think we failed as a community (GBP group and the rest) to openly discuss the disagreements21:23
SumitNaiksatamthe -2 was initially put since there was no data path patch21:23
a_lemarkmcclain: you have never mentioned that before.21:24
a_lethe -2 never mentioned any disagreement you ever heard21:24
ivar-lazzaroSumitNaiksatam: exactly, that was the -2 reason originally :)21:24
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SumitNaiksatamat that point the data path patch was WIP21:24
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marunI think it's important to separate discussion of procedural issues from the lack of consensus.21:25
markmcclainbanix: agreed someone in another project once said we are much better at using procedures to get what we want than having the hard discussions we have to have to have from time to time21:25
SumitNaiksatamand the data path patch was shortly pushed upstream shortly after the -2 was posted (patch was pushed by rkukura)21:25
reedbanix, interesting... why do you think we failed at discussing the disagreement?21:25
salv-orlandoI made one fundamental complaint back in HK - that this should have been proposed as a new tenant API. This went largely ignored, and so I thought I was wrong after all. Then from what I read last week, it seems to me that several groupo policy contributor are actually seeing it as a new api with different abstractions.21:25
rkukuraThe people actively working on the feature, which includes two cores, did reach consensus. That consensus was described in the spec that was reviewed and approved.21:25
SumitNaiksatamreed: i think we are going in circles here21:25
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SumitNaiksatamreed: we dont even know what the diagreement is about21:26
salv-orlandoWhich to me is not consistent with the impleentation as a service plugin, despite the mapping effort. So I would like to reconsider that. But at the same time I don’t want to be slapped in the face for beeing too late.21:26
nati_uenosalv-orlando: which one?21:26
markmcclainrkukura: the consensus was only reached within the GPB team21:26
salv-orlandoI have been slapped already once.21:26
SumitNaiksatamreed: can i speak for a couple of minutes?21:26
reedSumitNaiksatam, please21:26
SumitNaiksatamreed: its a request21:26
marunrkukura: That consensus does not appear to have been broad enough, or the mailing list threads wouldn't have spanned 100+ posts.21:26
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SumitNaiksatamok let me start from the beginning21:26
banixreed, salv-orlando: it would have been wonderful to have your ideas discussed in our group meetings; I tried to the extent I could to bring in other cores to our discussions but did not succeed;21:27
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SumitNaiksatami mentioned that the bp was registered in launchpad on oct 24th 201321:27
SumitNaiksatamit was discussed during the HK summit in nov 201321:27
SumitNaiksatamafter that we had weekly IRC meetings on this topic for the entire H cycle21:27
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SumitNaiksatamduring this whole time a google doc was published in the community21:27
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SumitNaiksatamand it was worked on collaboratively by several people21:27
SumitNaiksatamso this went on for the the whole of the H cycel21:28
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SumitNaiksatamagain we had weekly IRC meetings21:28
marunbanix: That's an aspect of contribution - it's not enough to submit patches.  It's the responsibility of a given initiative to secure the necessary support to have it proceed.  If at first you don't succeed - try a different path?21:28
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reedSumitNaiksatam, I get it, it looks to me like the GBP team did apparently everything right, all the things that I suggest teams to do when they want to propose large new features21:28
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SumitNaiksatamreed: there is some more21:28
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reedand yet, something failed here and I'd like to get to the root cause21:28
reedSumitNaiksatam, please continue21:29
salv-orlandobanix: it’s pretty much my fault. Since the havana release I’ve stopped working on all “new” stuff because work was needed first and foremost to make neutron a decent product. So I’ve lost contact with group policy, load balancing, firewall, etc.21:29
SumitNaiksatamtowards the end of the H cycle the team was told to create a PoC to validate21:29
SumitNaiksatamthe concept21:29
SumitNaiksatamthe team did this21:29
marun…everything right, barring actually securing sufficient trust and goodwill from the community for their efforts.21:29
SumitNaiksatamiterating in a public repository21:29
marunBut that's not on the contribution checklist, so it's easy enough to ignore.21:29
SumitNaiksatamwe presented this PoC in the Atlanta summit21:30
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SumitNaiksatamalso note that this PoC was not an individual effort21:30
marunYou're describing what you've done, and I accept everything you say.21:30
markmcclainI don't think anyone disputes you tried to make this open21:30
marunIt doesn't mean you have achieved the outcome desired, though.  :(21:30
SumitNaiksatamthere were about 10 or more people from different organizations participating21:30
banixmarun, understand now; my assumption (which now i know was incorrect) was that if no objection is raised and then the spec is approved it means even if there is some diasagreements they are not serious in nature; That is the aspect we need to work on for this and any other initiative in coming cycles21:30
SumitNaiksatamthen during the ATL summit this was presented in a design summit session, and also in the conference session21:30
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salv-orlandoWould you agree on this short summary: a large chunk of the community works on something new for a long time. The process is followed. 4 core dev review the specification, 3 approve it. Other devs, which ignored the specification and did not complain at the time, now have cold feet.21:31
marunbanix: The approval of a spec was never intended as a commitment to accept a feature.21:31
rkukurabanix: +121:31
reedmarun, that's definitely something to keep in mind (the lack of a point on the checklist)21:31
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SumitNaiksatamwe were provided feedback during the summit session, which we incorporate in the patches and presented the first patch on May 26th21:31
marunbanix: It is intended to indicate that, to the best of our knowledge, we would like work to proceed.21:31
salv-orlandowhat to do? Ignore people with cold feet and tell them they had their time to talk?21:31
reedsalv-orlando, looks like a fair assessment to me, from what I understand21:31
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marunbanix: It doesn't preclude a feature being bumped for any number of reasons.21:32
salv-orlandoreed: I’m just trying to avoid the conversation from getting sidestepped into details ;)21:32
markmcclainsalv-orlando: good synopsis21:32
tmc3inphillymestery, do the cores meet on a regular caidence to discuss all of the WIP?21:32
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banixmarun: so does it make any sense if we have different categories of specs ….21:32
SumitNaiksatamafter reviews between May 26th and July 2nd, during which several comments were provided, a -2 was put on the patch21:32
marunbanix: I think we need to clarify the spec documentation so that the expectation is in line with our intentions.21:32
salv-orlandodoes our current “law” tell how to behave in this case?21:32
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mesterytmc3inphilly: Usually at our weekly "core only" meetings at the clubhouse, yes.21:32
mesterytmc3inphilly: I jest, no, we do not.21:32
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SumitNaiksatamthe first time we heard back after july 2nd was on Aug 4th21:33
reedmarun, bumping something like this so late may require building a strong case, because this sort of issue can make/break the collaboration on OpenStack21:33
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SumitNaiksatamwhen this erupted it where we are now21:33
marunI think there is something else in the mix, though.21:33
markmcclainSumitNaiksatam: I spent a good deal of time talking to those with reservations21:33
ivar-lazzarosalv-orlando: I think the solution to this is understanding how 'complaints' late in the process should be addressed in a first place21:33
marunThe fact that up until now we have not had a good procedure for evolving new APIs.21:33
SumitNaiksatammarkmcclain: why did these discussions have to happen in private?21:33
markmcclainmarun: +10021:33
SumitNaiksatammarkmcclain: the patches were in gerrit21:33
reedI think there are 2 issues: how we solve the immediate GBP problem (merge in trunk, out of trunk, if at all...) and how we deal with future discussions like this21:33
SumitNaiksatammarkmcclain: why werernt the reservations stated in gerrit?21:34
rkukuraWhy can’t all these people with reservations state their reservations in public?21:34
markmcclainSumitNaiksatam: they were private because several folks asked them to be21:34
marunGroup based policy is a new API, and putting it into the tree in the same way that lbaas, vnpaas and fwaas invites the same problems we had with those efforts in terms of API quality21:34
SumitNaiksatammarkmcclain: what is that supposed to mean?21:34
guscaptain obvious: as the reviewer pool increases, it will be increasingly impossible to get 100% agreement.21:34
SumitNaiksatammarun: that is an unsubstantiated claim21:34
markmcclainrkukura: some felt they were ignored and told their input was not valid because they had months that shoudl have done it earlier21:34
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marunSumitNaiksatam: Uh21:34
markmcclainthat is a something I've heard from many folks21:34
reeduntil now we used "lazy consensus", not 100% agreement21:35
marunSumitNaiksatam: Given how many people tell me it's crap, I don't think its as unsubstantiated as you seem to think.21:35
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gus.. so whatever the process is going forwards, it can't rely on 100% agreement in order to make progress.21:35
marunSumitNaiksatam: And if you are blind to those quality issues, I'm not sure I trust you to vet group policy's API as stable.21:35
tmc3inphillymestery seems like it would make sense for the cores to meet regularly to discuss items up for review so that there is a core consensus21:35
SumitNaiksatamreed: so here we are in the situation where its claimed that reservations were present, but they could not express them - is this how the community works?21:35
salv-orlandoSumitNaiksatam, marun: what metrics do we have to measure quality?21:35
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marunSumitNaiksatam: Allowing the API to mature would seem a reasonable middle path, so that iteration can occur before stabilization.21:35
markmcclaintmc3inphilly: we do here everyone week21:36
salv-orlandospecifically gro group policy21:36
reedSumitNaiksatam, not sure I understand the question, can you rephrase it please?21:36
marunsalv-orlando: right now, people complaining :)21:36
s3wongreed: 100% agreement is a very difficult requirement to enforce...21:36
SumitNaiksatamreed: and a year long effort is being blocked now on the basis of things which were never said or commented!21:36
a_lemarkmcclain: if you hear people have reservations you should encourage them to speak for themselves and voice their reservations in public21:36
ivar-lazzaroSumitNaiksatam: +121:36
SumitNaiksatamreed: sure21:36
marunSumitNaiksatam: You may notice the effort is stalled.21:36
salv-orlandobut I guess we have tests passing and jobs ready to be pushed for CI?21:36
reedSumitNaiksatam, yep, it feels unfair and that's why we're having this conversation21:36
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SumitNaiksatamreed: the claim here is that somehow there is this huge section of the community which was against this effort but could not express it (for whatever reason) - and they relied on markmcclain to put a -2 and provided him feedback to preserve the -2 for the time from july 2 to aug 4th21:37
marunSumitNaiksatam: I think we have lots of lessons to learn from this experience, but I don21:37
reedI think we have a clear view of why/ho we got here... how to move forward?21:37
a_le+1 - so here we are in the situation where its claimed that reservations were present, but they could not express them - is this how the community works?21:37
markmcclaina_le: I encourage them to talk, but some folks were afraid to step out front of this one for fear of retribution21:37
salv-orlandomarun, SumitNaiksatam: regarding quality, I think we have some sort of automated testing to verify it? Don’t we?21:37
marunsalv-orlando: there is no substitute for user feedback21:37
SumitNaiksatamreed: so based on that assertion we are supposed to push this effort21:37
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SumitNaiksatamreed: so my question was - is this how the community is supposed to work?21:38
salv-orlandomarun: If users are like me, there’s nothing to trust in it21:38
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SumitNaiksatamreed: most of all - is this the expectation for the cores?21:38
salv-orlandoand I honeslty have realized most users are like me - therefore no trust anymore to user feedback and any form of anedoctal evidence21:38
marunSumitNaiksatam: You're part of this community.  It's built on trust and relationships at least as much as policy and procedure.21:38
SumitNaiksatamfor -> from21:38
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ivar-lazzaromarun: what about user feedback who want this to be in tree? (which in the ML seems to be the largest part btw)21:38
salv-orlandoand even if seems like I’m joking, I’m serious here.21:38
marunSumitNaiksatam: If it's not working the way you want it, we welcome your efforts to make it more effective.21:38
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marunSumitNaiksatam: You have to understand why it works the way it does, though.  It's not enough to claim 'foul!'21:39
reedSumitNaiksatam, looking at the numbers of the 'community' I think this sort of friction is normal and to be expected, at this size (we're a lot better than most other collaborations)21:39
* mestery can't tell when salv-orlando is joking anymore.21:39
reedhow do we get out of the lock?21:39
salv-orlandomestery: the nice aspect of being a psychotic jester ;)21:39
SumitNaiksatamreed: i fully accept that21:39
banixmestery: salv-orlando is always “not joking” :)21:40
marunivar-lazzaro: I've seen the group policy team accept any and all support and feedback that confirms their belief that the effort is on track.21:40
SumitNaiksatamreed: but not at the cost of jeopordizing a long runnning effort like this21:40
reedSumitNaiksatam, my objective is to find the root cause and keep improving, reduce waste, friction21:40
marunivar-lazzaro: And I've seen the same team ignore criticism.21:40
marunivar-lazzaro: I think this is called 'confirmation bias'21:40
ivar-lazzaroreed: yeah exactly, so there should be a process to address complaints later in the process. Otherwise a -1 is always stronger than a +1 ( metaphorically speaking)21:40
SumitNaiksatamreed: we can definitely help you with that21:40
reedSumitNaiksatam, we need a solution, I agree with you21:40
reedivar-lazzaro, agreed, voicing concerns ...21:41
reeddo people really feel for their jobs if they voice concerns?21:41
mscohenideally, we would like a solution that would work for Juno as well.  There are users on the ML who expressed interest in consuming this work.21:41
banixso the question is where we go from here :)21:41
ivar-lazzaromscohen: +121:41
markmcclainmscohen, banix: I've got a way to address21:42
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marunivar-lazzaro: which suggests the need for an incubation repo.  So that we can merge early and often and always be able to correct mistakes before we have to accept a feature as stable.21:42
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marunivar-lazzaro: having to have a huge chain of patches in flight makes it super painful on all who want to review21:42
reedmscohen, technically speaking code doesn't need to be in trunk to be consumed by users (there is a separate thread on this at the moment)21:42
ivar-lazzaromarun: that is not the only solution proposed though :)21:42
banixmarkmcclain: great to see your proposal; will need some time to read through21:42
marunivar-lazzaro: it's the best one so far21:43
mscohenmarkmcclain: I think this is an interesting direction.  My worry is that the incubator may end up a “dumping” ground if its not well integrated into the rest of neutron and openstack21:43
markmcclainmarun: +1000 the large chains were an effort to solve one problem but created another type21:43
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SumitNaiksatamreed: that thread is a separate and a longer discussion21:43
markmcclainmscohen: so the 30sec pitch is the incubator is designed to take code that will land <2 cycles21:43
tmc3inphillymarkmcclain, mestery: why would we go through this process with LBaaS if we are going to be spinning it out within 2 cycles21:43
* mestery worries about core reviewer time for an added incubator repository and how to avoid another GBP via the incubator.21:43
ivar-lazzaromarkmcclain: your 'plus' are slowing getting over 9000 :)21:44
mesterytmc3inphilly: Read the wiki page, we can spinout right from the incubator if we need to.21:44
SumitNaiksatammestery: +121:44
mscohenBut that does not address my concern of doing something for Juno.  I think GBP is past that point.21:44
reedI don't think there is a simple solution to this problem ...21:44
mesteryI'm not saying these aren't solvable issues.21:44
SumitNaiksatamreed: we need more time think about the incubator proposal21:44
reedI think we should focus on GBP21:44
bloganI think if the incubator is executed correctly it will benefit neutron, but if it is not it is just kicking the can the road21:44
rkukuramarkmcclain: The incubator proposal seems useful for experimantation, but the GBP effort is much more of a feature we’ve committed to implementing, not an experiment.21:44
SumitNaiksatamreed: yes21:44
mesteryblogan: +10021:44
SumitNaiksatamreed: so specifically in the case of GBP, this its a good candidate for what rkukura has proposed21:45
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reedblogan, indeed, it's a delicate decision, wouldn't suggest rushing it to address the issue with GBP21:45
markmcclainrkukura: except that gpb api isn't stable21:45
tmc3inphillymestery: I like the process as it helps stabalize Neutron and should ensure that it remains stable.21:45
marunSumitNaiksatam: I don't think we want anything merging that doesn't have broad consensus.21:45
SumitNaiksatamreed: rkukura’s proposal is here #link
markmcclainrkukura: jaypipes was asking very valid questions and maturing the API is exactly what we need21:45
marunSumitNaiksatam: And we don't have time this late in the cycle to gain that consensus without negatively impacting more important work21:45
rkukuramarkmcclain: The working assumption all along is that initial releases of new APIs are not considered stable. My proposal is just to formalize and clarify that.21:45
emaganamestery and reed: we just have 15 minutes left!21:45
markmcclaintmc3inphilly: yes I want ops to know that what is in tree is production ready21:46
mesteryemagana: That's plenty of time to find a solution which makes everyone happy here.21:46
marunSumitNaiksatam: So, incubate it until we do have consensus21:46
reedemagana, fair enough, I don't think we'll reach consensus on how to proceed in that time21:46
emaganaemagana: stop being such as time controller!21:46
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bloganIf neutron cores are the only ones to review the incubator projects, then I don't see how that will help core reviewers bandwidth or velocity on getting merged into the incubator themselves21:46
markmcclainand that stuff in the incubator is getting there, but still needs work to matrue21:46
emaganamestery: I hope so  ;)21:46
mesteryemagana: ;)21:46
reedmestery, we can continue on the list, on rkukura proposal and I'll chase some more of you offline21:46
rkukuraGet the feature implemented to production quality, get it in the hands of eartly adopters, and incorporate the feedback to stabilize the feature in the next release.21:46
markmcclainblogan: the goal is that smaller more incremental patches can go in there21:46
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reedand if needed we can continue next week21:46
mesteryreed: Thank you sir!21:46
markmcclainso that review time is less21:47
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nati_uenoIMO, we should have a special meeting slot for this21:47
nati_uenootherwise, we lose core meeting time, right?21:47
mesterynati_ueno: For GBP or incubator or something even more contentious?21:47
marunrkukura: why would we want to rely on an implicit warning of an unstable api when we could make it explicit via separate distribution?21:47
dougwigblogan: i'd hope/expect the bar to be different for merging; namely, the expectation of rapid iteration.  i don't want to see a bunch of non-cores reviewing, and end up with a big ball of code that cores have never seen at graduation time.21:47
bloganmarkmcclain: so if it is the requirement that a majority of cores have to be engaged, does that mean majority of cores have to be engaged throughout the lifecycle of incubated projects or only upon graduation?21:47
nati_uenomarun: both of21:47
mesteryblogan: Both!21:48
nati_uenosorry mestery: both of21:48
mesterynati_ueno: Got it.21:48
nati_uenomestery: thanks21:48
marundougwig: +121:48
bloganmestery, marun: in that case do you think if GBP had done this from the start would we be in the same predicament?21:49
* banix wishes for the good old slow and sometimes dull meetings of the past :) cannot keep up21:49
marundougwig: there could be more emphasis on merging small patches in incubator, since we know that the feature is still evolving21:49
reedemagana, mestery, what are the next topics in the agenda?21:49
mesteryblogan: That's the part we hope to avoid.21:49
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mesteryOK, lets move on.21:49
salv-orlandoDo we have to go on like this for another week? I don’t think the user community, botht the part that uses v2 API and the one that can’t wait to use v3 API will see all this turmoil as positive.21:49
emaganareed: Contrail Plugin review & Sub-team culling21:50
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mscohenso where does that leave this past topic?21:50
kevinbentonIt seems there is nothing GBP could have done because non of the dissent was strongly voiced until a couple of days ago21:50
mesterymarun: Do we need to talk contrail next?21:50
salv-orlandoso if we can at least agree on how we should put an end to this discussion….21:50
SumitNaiksatamreed: so whats the resolution here?21:50
ivar-lazzarokevinbenton: +121:50
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reedSumitNaiksatam,  mscohen, no consensus, we'll have to continue discussion21:50
SumitNaiksatamreed: regarding GBP?21:50
marunblogan: I think incubating group policy could have avoided this, yes.  There could have been more feedback earlier on and no need to rush things before consensus.21:50
marunmestery: yes21:50
mesterymarun: OK, we'll get to it next.21:50
a_lekevinbenton: +1billion21:51
banixsalv-orlando: +121:51
mscohenreed: the problem with that is that juno-3 is moving along.  We’re defacto blocked from Juno if this continues though.21:51
kentwukevinbenton: +121:51
mesteryMy personal fear is that even if someone magically says "lets the GBP reviews proceed" there seems to be the sense they would get -2s from others and we'd be right back here next week.21:51
bloganmarun: I'm not so sure myself.  I'm all for the incubator project (if its executed well), but I think framing it as a solution to what GBP is going through isn't correct21:51
marunmscohen: The incubator proposal doesn't require incubator release to follow the openstack cycle.21:51
* mestery notes his english isn't sluring because of anything alcoholic.21:51
rkukuraI’m not really convinced that the same exact blocking behaviour wouldn’t occur any time there is an attempt to graduate something “contentious” from incubation.21:51
marunmscohen: Release could be whenever there is something meaningful to distribute21:51
reedmscohen, SumitNaiksatam: I'll be working this week with you to move this forward21:51
emaganamestery: good point, I think it makes sense markmcclain proposal then21:52
markmcclainmestery: that is true21:52
SumitNaiksatamreed: sure21:52
sc68calrkukura: +121:52
marunrkukura: I think we'd want to have regular checkpoints on incubated efforts.21:52
a_lemestery: where do you get that sense from?21:52
reedI don't think we can do more than this at the moment, there clearly is no consensus21:52
dougwigi agree with blogan on GBP/incubator.  we all assume the best of intentions, but what's to stop a last minute -2 on graduation due to "people that are opposed but don't want to speak out" ? nothing.  this comes down to people, not process.21:52
mesterySo, with that knowledge in tow, how do we move forward?21:52
marunrkukura: so that concerns could be raised early enough to address them constructively and without unnecessary fallout21:52
banixis it fair to say until we find consnsus we wont be able to merge GBP and alike?21:52
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reedis anyone here from Contrail/Juniper?21:52
salv-orlandohoneslty from what I see we can keep discussing for months but we’ll never reach a 100% consensus21:53
marundougwig: incubator projects would have 2 cycles to gain consensus21:53
mesterya_le: Were you paying attention to this meeting?21:53
banixand we need to figure out the process to get there whether it is through markmcclain ’s proposal or something else21:53
dougwigmarun: gbp has had two cycles.  :)21:53
reedsalv-orlando, have you ever seen a meeting at the UN?21:53
marundougwig: not in the tree, they haven't21:53
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marundougwig: if things were merged and had had 2 cycles to mature, it would be very different21:53
a_lemestery: yes, and the elephant in the room is that no one expressed dissent in the open21:53
salv-orlandoreed: noe, but Germans and English are still arguing over a goal scored 48 years ago21:54
maruna_le: There are vendors involved in this project.21:54
mesterya_le: I was hoping people would, but alas, we're not going to be that lucky.21:54
reedsalv-orlando, this is nothing compared to that :)21:54
salv-orlandoreed: and honestly the kind of compromise they do at the UN will probably not be so good for a software project21:54
marunso, contrail?21:54
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salv-orlandoyeah let’s move contrail21:54
reedmarun, right, contrail :)21:54
mesteryLets move on21:54
SumitNaiksatammestery: that leads me to question if there really was any dissent, or are we fishing for reasons now?21:54
nati_uenomarun: could you share your thought on here?21:54
gussomething I've seen address problems like this elsewhere fwiw is clearly separating reviewer vs approver roles.  reviewers get to add comments, but fundamentally only approver's opinions matter.  You then make policies that restrict the number and name up front who the approvers are going to be for a particular change (ie: it wouldn't just de-facto be all core reviewers).21:55
dougwigmarun: maybe, but there's a very real risk that the "graduation" gate is similar to the current "push a chain of review in" gate.  it goes back to the soft touch issues you mentioned earlier.21:55
marunMaybe we'll have to talk about contrail separately?21:55
marunwe have 5 minutes left21:55
reed#chair mestery21:55
openstackCurrent chairs: mestery reed21:55
nati_uenowho's interested in that topic?21:55
mestery#unchair reed21:55
openstackCurrent chairs: mestery21:55
nati_uenoI mean contrail21:55
banixi think related to this is also a large number of other specs that have been approved and honestly I cannot think them getting in… we will have more unhappy developers21:55
nati_uenowe have also have a separate meeting on this21:55
marunnati_ueno: agreed21:55
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salv-orlandonati_ueno, marun: I’ve pointed out that I do not understand why we would need a plugin which is pretty much a proxy which does some minimal changes to the payload and then sends the API request to another neutron endpoint. However, as you see I’ve not put a -221:56
marunbanix: The fact that spec approval doesn't guarantee feature inclusion needs to be communicated better in the docs and on the list.21:56
roampunewhy not put it to vote with ATC's21:56
nati_uenosalv-orlando: Thanks. could you have a time for discussion for this?21:56
salv-orlandobecause that’s the way contrail server is designed, and as much as that seems crazy to me I have no voice there21:56
marunroampune: What qualifies someone to vote on a given issue?21:56
nati_uenosalv-orlando: contrail want to use neutron functionalities such as policy.json quota services (vpn lbaas, fwaas)21:57
markmcclainreed: thanks for helping to work through discussion21:57
marunroampune: we are not actually a democracy.  People have to earn their influence, it isn't given for showing up.21:57
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salv-orlandonati_ueno: there is no need to discuss that - from the neutron point of view the code is simple and linear. I think you’ll end up in trouble everytime there will be an API change but is none of my business that21:57
nati_uenosalv-orlando: l2 stuff is proxyed thorught21:57
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nati_uenosalv-orlando: ya that's pain point but we can work on it21:57
marunI think that contrail is not a very useful plugin from a community perspective.21:57
marunIt is a shim to integrate the contrail controller into Neutron, sure.21:58
sc68calmarun: showing up is important, turning people away with comments like that does not further the project21:58
marunBut it provides no real benefit to the community that couldn't be easily carried out of tree.21:58
nati_uenomarun: ya but it is also point of neturon, right? user can choose backend. no lockin21:58
salv-orlandonati_ueno: yes using neutron for authN/authZ only is a bit… not enough. But again, if that’s how contrail works, I can’t really say anything about that. So from my perspective, I am happy to see that plugin land in jno.21:58
marunAnd the contrail team has a bad record of interacting with the community.21:58
rudraruggemarun: backend choices are dependent on the plugin21:58
emaganamarun: few other plugins will fall into that category then21:58
nati_uenoit looks like there are some communication issue. but i can fix it21:59
* salv-orlando hoping that we’ll move all non-reference plugin away from the main code repo in Kilo because it has become unmaneageable21:59
marunThings like escalating to the foundation rather than trying to resolve things direclty.21:59
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markmcclainmarun: most plugins are thin shims21:59
mesterysalv-orlando: ++21:59
nati_uenomarun: ya we should discuss it in here21:59
mesterysalv-orlando: That's next week's topic.21:59
mesterysalv-orlando: I'm sure it will be an easy discussion.21:59
reedmarun, who is 'the foundation'?21:59
marunyou, as I understand it21:59
reedmarun, ok, jutss checking :)21:59
salv-orlandomestery: huh? What was the last easy discussion we had?21:59
mestery1 minute left22:00
markmcclainmy main concern with this particular implementation is that it is different enough that attempts to refactor the core will break it22:00
reedmarun, and indeed, I'd be happy to get involved22:00
markmcclainbut that is on the back of the proposing company22:00
marunThat said, I have been assured that the unproductive modes of interaction that have characterized the contrail team thus far are not going to continue.22:00
mesteryOK, we;re at time folks.22:00
sc68calyeah if we refactor core and it breaks them, oh well22:00
mesteryI invite you all back to next week's weekly neutron meeting where the fun will continue.22:00
nati_uenomarkmcclain: it is chagned in latest one22:00
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openstackMeeting ended Mon Aug 11 22:00:59 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)22:01
marunAnd that nati_ueno joining their team indicates their willingness to contribute to the community and not just be free riders.22:01
openstackMinutes (text):
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nati_uenomarun: yes. I promise keep contribution for the community22:01
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nati_uenomarun: and I'll fix communication issue22:01
marunI was hoping for input from folks as to what they wanted to see happen :(22:01
marunEverything is getting lost under the group policy debate.22:01
marunIt really needs to stop.22:02
salv-orlandoso the meeting is over… adieuuuuu22:02
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markmcclainmarun: honestly I'd be ok giving contrail a go.. we are very likley to break their plugin in kilo22:02
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amotokiwe seem to need storng time keepers :-(22:02
marunlet's talk about contrail in #openstack-neutron22:02
praneetmarun +122:02
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