Tuesday, 2014-08-26

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yamahata#startmeeting servicevm-device-manager05:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 26 05:01:24 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yamahata. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.05:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.05:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'servicevm_device_manager'05:01
yamahata#topic Announcement05:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcement (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:01
yamahatatoday bob and karthik are absent.05:01
yamahataI added a section of "absent" of the meeting wiki05:02
yamahata#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ServiceVM#Apologies_for_Absence05:02
yamahataI uploaded WIP patch for l3 routervm plugin05:03
yamahata#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116773/ WIP: router vm l3 plugin/driver/agent05:03
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yamahataIt addresses l3 plugin side.05:03
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yamahataNow I'm working on cfg/guest agent side05:03
yamahataThat's all from me.05:04
yamahataanything else to announce?05:04
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yamahatavishwanathj: do you have any?05:05
vishwanathjnothing from me from announcement perspective, but I do have other questions later05:06
yamahata#topic code review05:06
*** openstack changes topic to "code review (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:06
yamahataWe have two code review csr1kv and vyatta05:06
yamahataBob seems updated their patch for csr1kv.05:06
yamahatavyatta vrouter patch seems to need some update. But we don't have karthik. Maybe vishwanathj has an opinion.05:07
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yamahataFor vrouter patch, I'm going to upload refactoring patch.05:07
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yamahata#topic Open Discussion05:08
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:08
yamahatanothing from me.05:08
yamahatavishwanathj: it's your turn.05:08
vishwanathjyamahata: I want to get to the point of being an active contributor...05:08
songoleyamahata: could you provide links to code review?05:08
vishwanathjkarthk has sent me links to the HowToContribute...05:09
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yamahatafor easy one.05:09
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yamahata#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102336/ Implementation of Brocade Vyatta vRouter L3 Plugin05:10
vishwanathjI have began to act on it. What documents do you suggest that I start going through to come upto speed on the ServiceVM project, maybe, I can follow up on this by sending you an email, if that;s oK with you05:10
yamahata#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101002/ Adds router service plugin for CSR1kv05:10
yamahatavishwanathj: great.05:11
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songolethanks yamahata05:11
vishwanathjyamahata: thanks05:11
yamahatavishwanathj: the next neartearm goal is to have a working routervm with tacker servicevm service.05:12
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vishwanathjyamahata: I see05:12
yamahataFor that sake, I'd like to make l3-agent run within routervm of linux.05:12
vishwanathjyamahata: I will sync up with karthik on that as well05:12
yamahatavishwanathj: Probably you'd like to make it work with vyatta routervm05:13
vishwanathjyamahata: I will add that as a task for myself05:13
yamahatawith that, we can validate/check our design is good or not05:13
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yamahataHopefully Bob will be on the same boat. We will see.05:14
vishwanathjyamahata: sounds good05:15
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yamahataany other topic?05:16
vishwanathjyamahata: nothing related to servicevm from my side05:16
yamahataProbably the ideal timeline is to have something working at the beginning of Kilo cycle.05:17
yamahataThen apply official incubation process.05:17
vishwanathjyamahata: when is the beginning of Kilo cycle?05:17
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yamahataI'm not aware official public schedule.05:19
yamahataBut I guess around october05:19
yamahata#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Juno_Release_Schedule juno schedule05:19
vishwanathjok, thanks05:19
yamahataOctober 23 or 3005:19
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vishwanathjyamahata: Thanks for the info05:20
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yamahataseems no more topics05:20
yamahatathanks every one. see you next week05:20
vishwanathjyamahata: thanks and bye05:21
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"05:21
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 26 05:21:30 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)05:21
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-08-26-05.01.html05:21
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-08-26-05.01.txt05:21
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-08-26-05.01.log.html05:21
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sc68calwho's ready for some IPv6?14:00
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amotokihey, though i need to leave during the meeting14:01
sc68cal#startmeeting neutron_ipv614:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 26 14:02:41 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is sc68cal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)"14:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_ipv6'14:02
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sc68calFirst off, I want to say that everyone has done a hell of a job this development cycle14:04
sc68calIf I am not mistaken, since xuhanp's review for dnsmasq got merged, we have completed all ipv6 blueprints for the Juno development cycle14:04
sc68calplus, we got everything in before the mad rush for the deadline of J-314:05
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aveigasc68cal: is that the stateful dhcp mode setting review? got a link?14:05
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sc68calyeah let me dig it up14:05
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aveigano rush, and congrats :)14:05
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xuhanpsc68cal, We will need this fix to make DHCPv6 security group work:  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103811/14:08
xuhanpbut I think we are close to merge14:08
sc68calperfect, that was going to be my next question - if there is anything we need to get core attention on14:09
paraaHi, I have a question concerning the ipv6-radvd-ra spec. Wasnt there a problem with two default routes on the neutron router when there are RAs send from within the router namespace for the tenant network and also RAs from an upstream router for the external network? I only saw an abandoned patch from randy tuttle.14:09
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sc68calparaa: do you have the link to the patch in gerrit?14:10
dane_leblancparaa: This is the limitation that router ports can only have 1 IP address, either IPv4 or v6, not both?14:10
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FJBThat's not an IPv6 limitation. IPv6 can have multiple addresses on a port.14:11
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aveigaparaa FJB: I don't think we currently support multiple RAs from different nodes at this point14:12
dane_leblancFJB: Right, there's a blueprint up for review that tries to address neutron concerns with multiple v6 addresses14:12
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sc68calI don't think randy tuttle has been active lately, so paraa - if you can get a good bug report to help identify the issue we can probably get a fix14:12
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sc68calI think right now that info is in people's heads - bug report would be good to help share info14:13
sc68calor a BP - as dane_leblanc mentioned :)14:13
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dane_leblancsc68cal: Check out the BP, it at least tries to address this14:13
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sc68caldane_leblanc: yeah, as soon as they create the Kilo directory - get ready for your BP to be high priority for us14:14
paraasc68cal the fix is already part of the patch. I will try to get a clean bug report together and grep the fix from the patch.14:14
dane_leblancsc68cal: Yes, can't wait! Thanks14:15
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sc68calparaa: awesome. That'll help give context - plus we can get bug fixes in quicker than bp's ;)14:15
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sc68calspeaking of.14:16
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sc68calSo I want to discuss this bug14:17
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1358297 in neutron "Port doesn't receive IP SLAAC in subnets with Router advertisements without dnsmasq" [Medium,Incomplete]14:17
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sc68calWe have some differences that have been showing up in the tables that we filed for each IPv6 spec14:17
sc68calfrankly, I want to remove these differences between the specs and just pick one, and copy and paste it into all three14:17
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sc68calhaving different tables in each spec is leading to confusion14:18
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sc68calanyone have an opinion on what I've said?14:22
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dane_leblancI don't think there's disagreement, only a need for volunteer to do it?14:23
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sc68caldane_leblanc: agreed14:25
sc68calWe also need to probably collect all the DocImpact bugs and start working on some documentation14:25
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xuhanpsc68cal, agree. I need to document the dnsmasq version check somewhere14:29
aveigaI think it might be good to have a page or section that explains configurations14:30
aveigasince that's been such a heated topic of debate14:30
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sc68calAnyone else have any topics to discuss?14:35
xuhanpsc68cal, I have a topic to discuss if you finish this one?14:35
sc68calxuhanp: all yours14:35
xuhanpI am work on a bug to find the replacement for gratuitous ARP in IPv6 form14:36
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xuhanpFor HA14:36
FJBWho gets pinged?14:36
sc68calxuhanp: reading now14:37
aveigathat depends on what you're looking for14:37
aveigathere's a multicast address for each type of device14:38
aveigaall-nodes, all-routers, etc14:38
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FJBA ping to "all nodes" sounds, um, "interesting".14:38
aveigabut if the HA is using something like HSRP or VRRP, you just need to send an NS for the gateway14:39
sc68calxuhanp: so currently we need to find a way to inject ND packets in a way that works in multiple distros, instead of just ubuntu?14:39
FJBas in <subnet>::014:39
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xuhanpIt's for HA backup router who takes over to advertise ARP reply14:40
xuhanpfor IPv6, we need to send out unsolicited neighbor advertisement.14:40
xuhanpI found a ubuntu software ndsend who can do this.14:40
xuhanpbut not on other platforms.14:40
xuhanpanyone have any ideas on this?14:40
xuhanpBrian Haley commented:  There is no equivalent command to send a Neighbour Advertisement, it will simply be done when Duplicate Address Detection is run.14:40
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aveigaxuhanp: actually, just issue a new RA14:40
aveigano need for the NS14:40
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aveigasince it's being sent from the router, it should take over the RA job from the primary14:41
aveigalet the old RA timeout (your timers are already short, right?) then takeover from the new node14:41
paraayou can set the priority higher to let it takeover instantly14:41
aveigait should come from the source LLA anyway, so no need for ND to happen14:41
aveigaparaa: priority is ignored by almost all linux distros currently :/14:41
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haleybxuhanp: my other question about that change was why are we doing proxy ndp when there's not NAT, but is this for HA?14:44
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sc68calhaleyb: I think xuhanp missed your line14:46
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xuhanpI got disconnected. sorry about that.14:46
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haleybi'll paste it again14:47
haleybxuhanp: my other question about that change was why are we doing proxy ndp when there's not NAT, but is this for HA?14:47
xuhanpyes. this is for HA cause the ARP of IPv4 is for HA14:48
xuhanpand there is a bug reported since ARP doesn't work for IPv614:48
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xuhanpsc68cal, since we don't get an conclusion here, may I take this to the ML?  Or I missed the answer during my disconnection?14:53
sc68calML is probably good - you didn't miss an answer during your disconnect14:53
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xuhanpsounds great14:53
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haleybxuhanp: sorry, got distracted, but yes, if you can find some utility to send these that would be ok with me14:54
xuhanphaleyb, my problem is I only find one for ubuntu. not for other platforms.14:54
haleybbut i would assume that configuring the address would send an NS14:54
haleybi.e. when DAD is run14:55
aveigaagain, you shouldn't have to send a new NS14:55
aveigasince it's a router, sending a new RA should trigget that whole procedure for you14:55
sc68calxuhanp: yeah it's kind of odd, that util you found is part of the openvz package, according to manpage. Probably an odd dependency to add for Neutron14:56
xuhanpsc68cal, right.14:56
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haleybMaybe the ML or that review is a good place to comment since we're almost out of time14:56
sc68calmarkmcclain and I had a wacky idea to write some neutron code that would inject ICMPv6 RA packets directly. Might be another use case ;)14:57
aveigasc68cal: I second this for unicasting RAs for floats :-P14:57
sc68caland when I say markmcclain and I had a wacky idea, mostly mark said it to me and I liked it because it's awesome - he had the idea14:57
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haleybsc68cal: you mean using a library to inject an AF_PACKET packet?14:58
sc68calyeah, trying to remember the name of that python lib for packet processing14:58
xuhanpaveiga, do we need to trigger to send RA when backup turns into master in HA conf?14:59
aveigaxuhanp: if the device is acting as a router, it needs to send an RA anyway14:59
aveigashouldn't need to trigger anything14:59
sc68calSounds like we need a thread on the ML :)14:59
sc68calwe're out of time14:59
xuhanpI will send out an email15:00
sc68calxuhanp: awesome15:00
sc68calThanks everyone for attending, see everyone on the ML or #openstack-neutron!15:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 26 15:00:32 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-08-26-14.02.html15:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-08-26-14.02.txt15:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-08-26-14.02.log.html15:00
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n0ano#startmeeting gantt15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 26 15:00:49 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'gantt'15:00
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n0anoanyone here to talk about the scheduler?15:01
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n0anolooks like I missed a lively meeting last week but we'll get to that later15:02
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bauzasn0ano: yeah, last week one was good to discuss15:02
n0anolet's get started, maybe others will join in15:03
n0ano#topic resource model for scheduler15:03
*** openstack changes topic to "resource model for scheduler (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:03
n0anobauzas, jaypipes you said you were going to look at this, any progress?15:03
bauzasn0ano: I thought about the sched split yeah15:04
bauzasn0ano: so, maybe let me explain why this action item is there15:04
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bauzasn0ano: so we could discuss about the progress after that15:04
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bauzasn0ano: so, basically, the last week discussion was about how bad the scheduler was about updating stats15:04
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bauzasatm, resources are passed to the sched each 60 secs by writing into compute_nodes DB table some JSON fields called "resources"15:05
bauzaslong story short, we thought it was needed to give a more API for scheduler updates15:06
bauzasso, the proposal is re: scheduler-lib patch and what is passed now15:06
bauzasthe idea is to make use of the next method that will be provided thanks to the patch15:07
bauzashold on15:07
bauzashttps://review.openstack.org/82778 is the API proposal for scheduler updates15:07
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bauzasso, here we provide a JSON field called 'values'15:07
bauzasbased on last week discussion, we identified the need to keep that method but provide high-level Objects instead of these JSON blobs15:08
bauzasso the plan is15:08
bauzas1/ merge that patch15:08
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bauzas2/ provide a change for providing ComputeNode object instead of values JSON field into that method15:09
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bauzasthat requires some work on ComputeNode object, ie. making sure that it's correct15:09
bauzasthe main pain point is the Service FK we have on that object15:10
bauzashence I owned a bug created by jaypipes for cleaning up CN : https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/135749115:10
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1357491 in nova "Detach service from compute_node" [Wishlist,Triaged]15:10
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n0anoa couple of issues come to mind - 1) does this require a change to the DB (which currently holds that JSON string) and 2) how extensible is the new method (I know of changes bubbling underneath related to enhanced compute node stats)15:11
bauzasonce we have ComputeNode passed instead of arbitrary JSON field, we should think on how provide other objects if needed for filters15:11
bauzasn0ano: about 1/15:12
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bauzasn0ano: there should be a change about FK on service_id which will be deleted15:12
bauzasn0ano: apart from that, no changes on DB15:12
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bauzasn0ano: because instead of calling db.compute_update, we would be issue compute_obj.save()15:13
bauzaswhich is by far better15:13
n0anoso, rather than passing a JSON string in `values' we pass a ComputeNode object (that contains that same JSON string)15:13
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bauzasn0ano: the main difference being that's not arbitrary fields but versioned and typed ones15:13
bauzasjaypipes: your thoughts on that ?15:14
n0anoI'm not objecting actually, it seems we're just making the API heavier weight for minimal gain but it still works and if everyone thinks its better that's fine15:14
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bauzasn0ano: yeah, the problem is that we discovered some problems with the current situation15:15
n0anoI think both my points don't really apply, the DB will be the same and you can extend things by changing the `resources' string in the ComputeNote object, different way of doing the same thing15:16
bauzasn0ano: for example, with NUMA patches, ndipanov had to convert back from JSON to an object, it was a pure hack15:16
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bauzasn0ano: the extent of ComputeNode is yet to be discussed15:17
jaypipesbauzas: sorry, on phone...15:17
n0anojaypipes, can you scroll back, do we match your thinking?15:18
bauzasn0ano: from my perspective, we should say that ComputeNode could have some dependent classes15:18
bauzasn0ano: one other point while jaypipes is on the phone, we discussed about the claim thing15:18
n0anojust remembering that we have to consider how any changes to the ComputeNode object will be reflecting in the comput_node table in the DB15:18
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bauzasn0ano: wrt a very good paper I recommend, I'm pro having a in-scheduler claim system15:19
bauzasn0ano: that's already tied15:19
bauzasn0ano: have you seen the link I provided about this paper, the Omega one ?15:19
n0anothat was my concern, change the ComputeNode table implies changing the DB15:19
n0anohaven't read that yet, I saw the link, I'll read it15:20
n0anoin general I agree, I think the scheduler is the right central place to track resources15:20
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bauzasn0ano: http://eurosys2013.tudos.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/paper/Schwarzkopf.pdf15:21
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bauzasn0ano: that one is basically saying that an optimistic scheduler with retry features is better than a divide-and-conquer scheduler15:21
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bauzasn0ano: in terms of scalability15:22
n0anowell, I thought we currently `had` an optimistic with retries :-)15:22
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bauzasn0ano: right but with a slight difference about the claiming thing15:22
bauzasn0ano: in Omega, claiming is done on a transactional way15:22
bauzasn0ano: here that's a 2-phase commit15:23
bauzasn0ano: that said, I think the most important problem for the split is about the API15:23
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bauzasn0ano: hence the work to provide clean interfaces15:24
n0anoindeed +115:24
bauzasn0ano: kind of a follow-up of scheduler-lib15:24
n0anoseems to me that just changing to the ComputeNode object shouldn't be that big a change15:24
bauzasn0ano: think so too15:24
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bauzasn0ano: tbh, that's even part of the move-to-objects effort15:24
n0anoso, back to mechanics, the plan is to push the current sched-lib patch and then change it to use an object - right?15:25
bauzasthat still doesn't mean we agreed on how to update filters for isolate-sched-db :)15:25
bauzasie. I think we need to make use of that API instead of the ERT15:26
n0anoright about now just getting the sched-lib resolved seems like a major accomplishment :-)15:26
n0anolet's segue into the next topic15:26
bauzasjaypipes was having some concerns about the naming of such a method :)15:26
n0ano#topic forklift status15:27
*** openstack changes topic to "forklift status (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:27
bauzas(at least once jaypipes is freed from his phone :) )15:27
bauzasI think we covered the first bit of the split15:27
n0anoseems to me the isolate-sched-db is hung up on the ERT discussion, is there anyway to resolve that?15:27
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bauzasn0ano: by speaking of that, I think we should not rely on ERT for providing that15:28
bauzasn0ano: but on scheduler-lib and objects instead15:28
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n0anoif there's a way to be independant from ERT I'm +2 for that15:28
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bauzasn0ano: the way has to be designed yet still :)15:29
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n0anowell, we kind of have to, what do we do if they decide to revert ERT out?15:29
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n0anothe other option is we code to the current interfaces (e.g. we use ERT) and only change if ERT is changed15:30
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bauzasn0ano: well, I think we need to think what's a resource15:31
bauzasn0ano: here I'm saying that a resource is a ComputeNode object15:31
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bauzasn0ano: if we want to claim things, that should be on the ComputeNode object too15:31
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n0anobauzas, that's kind of a high level view, I would call resources many of the things encapsulated by the ComputeNode object15:32
bauzasn0ano: that's where I disagree15:32
n0anoI guess the question is how coarse can the resources be15:32
bauzasn0ano: IMHO, we should provide a claim class per object15:33
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bauzasn0ano: ie. "I want to claim usage for ComputeNode"15:33
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bauzasn0ano: but I can also "claim usage for an Aggregate"15:33
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n0anobut you don't claim the entire ComputeNode, I want to claim 2G of mem from the node and 2 vCPUs and so on, hence you need a finer granularity15:34
bauzasn0ano: the idea behind that is that the computation of the usage is done on the object itself, so it can be shared with RT until we give that to the scheduler15:34
n0anonot following, how do I claim that 2G of mem15:35
bauzasn0ano: well, you're probably right, it would be a 1:N dependency15:36
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bauzasn0ano: ie. a ComputeNode object could have a ClaimCPU object, a ClaimMemory etc.15:37
n0anoclaiming the ComputeNode object is simpler so I'd accept it as a start but, ultimately, I think we'll want finer control15:37
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bauzasn0ano: well, the outcome of this is to have a compute_obj.cpu.claim(usage) method but you get the idea15:38
mspreitzn0ano: finer in what way?15:38
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* n0ano screams at X window, let my keyboard talk :-)15:38
n0anomspreitz, rather than claiming an entire compute node object claim 2G from that node and 2 vCPUs and so on15:39
mspreitzI thought that's what bauzas is saying15:39
bauzasn0ano: to be precise, I don't like the word "claim"15:40
bauzasn0ano: I prefer compute_obj.make_use_of()15:40
mspreitzbauzas: who quantifies how much usage?15:41
bauzasso what you "claim" is a subset of the resource itself15:41
bauzasmspreitz: atm, that's compute based on request_spec15:41
bauzasmspreitz: it will probably be the scheduler wrt request_spec in the next future15:41
mspreitzhow would the scheduler modulate what is in the request spec?15:42
n0anobauzas, so the compute node would call compute_obj.make_use_of() reserve resources, is that the idea15:42
bauzasn0ano: that's from my mind, correct15:42
n0anobauzas, and then that would have to be sent to the scheduler via an API15:42
bauzasn0ano: correct too, until scheduler calls directly that method15:43
n0anobauzas, and would you reserve multiple resources with one call or have to make a separate call for each resource15:43
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bauzasn0ano: well, you go into the details where that still WIP in my mind :)15:43
n0anosorry, just doing a mind dump here :-)15:44
bauzasI'm just thinking of aggregates and instances here15:44
bauzasor NUMATopology15:44
n0anothere are details to be worked out but, as long as the ability to reserver specific resouces is there, I'm OK with it15:44
mspreitzthose of us who want to make joint decisions also want to make joint claims15:44
n0anomspreitz, hence my question about whether multiple calls are needed15:45
mspreitzright, I did not see a clear answer15:45
bauzasfrankly, I don't think it's here yet15:45
mspreitzI was hoping for an affirmation that this is a goal15:45
n0anomspreitz, I don't think we have one yet, this is just bauzas thinking for the future15:46
bauzasjaypipes: still otp ?15:46
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n0anomspreitz, I agree with the goal of supporting joint decisions, I don't want to do anything that would preclude that15:46
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n0anowell, back to immediate concerns, how do we proceed with the isolate-sched-db?15:48
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bauzasn0ano: I think we still need to see how community is thinking about ERT15:49
bauzasn0ano: and leave the patches there15:49
bauzasn0ano: but in the mean time, I need to carry on the move to ComputeNode for updating stats and think about the alternative15:50
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n0anoOK (maybe), I don't like treading water but I guess we can, hopefully the ERT will be decided soon (it better be_15:50
bauzasn0ano: anyway, the spec is not merged so we can't say "eh, that was validated before so that needs to be there"15:50
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bauzasn0ano: PaulMurray is still on PTO until end of this week AFAIK15:51
n0anobauzas, yeah, I rattled some cages but didn't get a response, at least it hasn't be rejected15:51
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bauzasn0ano: you can voice your opinion there15:52
n0anoreally?, I was hoping ERT would be decided this week, now we have to wait until next week, sigh15:52
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bauzashttps://review.openstack.org/115218 Revert patch for ERT15:52
bauzasyay, that's the price to pay for having a dependency on such a new feature :)15:52
n0anoyeah but nothing is going to happen until Paul gets back, that's the important thing15:52
n0anomoving on15:53
bauzasn0ano: hence my work on ComputeNode15:53
n0ano#topic opens15:53
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n0anoanything new anyone?15:53
bauzasI'll probably be on PTO end of this week15:53
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mspreitzI think there's a flaky CI15:53
bauzasand maybe the begining of next week15:53
bauzasmspreitz: ie. ?15:54
n0anoisn't there a bauzas 2.0 scheduled soon :-)15:54
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bauzasn0ano: bauzas 3.0 tbp15:54
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bauzasn0ano: coming in theaters end of this week15:54
n0anocongratulations and good luck15:54
n0anomspreitz, I would imagine that will be a topic for the nova meeting this week15:55
mspreitzok, thanks15:55
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bauzasmspreitz: well, you can at least check if a bug has been filed15:55
bauzasand create it if so15:55
mspreitzyeah, haven't had a chance to do that yet15:55
mspreitzhope to get to it15:55
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bauzasmspreitz: that's the most important thing, because it needs to be categorized15:56
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bauzasso, rechecks can be done on that bug number and that could get a trend15:56
bauzasmspreitz: you can also try logstash to see the frequency of your failure15:56
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mspreitzbauzas: oh, what's that?15:57
n0anoI pretty much just blindly recheck once, only if I get a second failure on code I think is good do I look for a CI issue15:57
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bauzasdammit, I would recommend a training on the next Summit for you :)15:58
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bauzasand in particular15:58
mspreitzthanks, I'll read that again15:58
n0anoOK, top of the hour, I'll thank everyone, talk again next week15:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 26 15:59:22 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:59
bauzassure, thanks15:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-08-26-15.00.html15:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-08-26-15.00.txt15:59
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boris-42#startmeeting rally17:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 26 17:03:03 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: rally)"17:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'rally'17:03
boris-42Hi Rally team!17:03
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boris-42k4n0 RainbowBastion marcoemorais harlowja_away olkonami hi guys17:04
k4n0o/ hi all17:04
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boris-42rediskin hi there17:06
rediskinhi all17:06
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boris-42oanufriev hi17:07
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boris-42okay I'll start17:08
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boris-42#topic support of benchmarking with pre created users17:08
*** openstack changes topic to "support of benchmarking with pre created users (Meeting topic: rally)"17:08
boris-42so the idea is to avoid creation of temporary users and be able to benchmark with existing users17:08
boris-42to do this I decided to extend ExistingEngine config to accept admin & users17:09
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boris-42and do all related change17:09
boris-42#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116766/17:09
boris-42but patch is not fully ready, as well there will be some hacks and refactoring of context17:10
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boris-42to remove hardcoded usage of user context17:10
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boris-42so I hope during this week I'll finish work on this17:11
boris-42any questions?17:11
rediskinhow users will be created?17:11
boris-42rediskin they are lady exist17:11
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boris-42rediskin in OpenStack17:12
boris-42rediskin usually in production OpenStack is using existing LDAP17:12
boris-42rediskin with read only access17:12
boris-42rediskin that's the issue, so people is not able to run benchmarks against their production clouds17:12
rediskinok. got it17:13
boris-42ok next topic?17:13
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olkonamiMay be it's a stupid question. But why can't we just  extend user context to specify existing users there&17:13
boris-42openstack so good question17:13
boris-42olkonami rediskin so the issue is next17:14
boris-42openstack rediskin  I want to run 100 benchmarks17:15
boris-42olkonami rediskin in one task17:15
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boris-42I will need to write 100 times the similar users17:15
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boris-42olkonami rediskin so for end user it will be simpler to describe during creating deployment these users, then specify every time17:16
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boris-42olkonami rediskin  it doesn't mean that we won't have existing-users context17:16
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rediskini thought also about shared contexts or named contexts17:17
boris-42rediskin yep this will be as well one of the features that we should discuss17:17
rediskinone context multiple tasks17:17
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boris-42rediskin I want to make something like persistance-context17:17
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boris-42rediskin e.g. running task against context (not deployment)17:17
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boris-42rediskin as well I am thinking about general section for benchmark config17:18
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olkonami+1 for general section for benchmark congfig17:18
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boris-42olkonami we should think a lot about this17:18
boris-42olkonami and make proposals cause it's user facing changes17:19
boris-42olkonami so they should be done 1 time and forever17:19
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olkonamiboris-42. ok. clear17:20
boris-42olkonami rediskin  so actually I think having a deployment with users will be better actually17:20
boris-42olkonami rediskin in most cases17:20
boris-42olkonami rediskin  cause you can run different tasks without changing them every time17:20
boris-42olkonami rediskin depending on users17:20
boris-42okay let's move17:20
boris-42#topic msdubov came back from vacation woot17:21
*** openstack changes topic to "msdubov came back from vacation woot (Meeting topic: rally)"17:21
boris-42^ we have finally fresh update17:21
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boris-42#topic Generic cleanup17:21
*** openstack changes topic to "Generic cleanup (Meeting topic: rally)"17:21
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boris-42rediskin could you share updates ?17:22
rediskinim working on reafactoring cleanup mechanism17:22
rediskinnow it will be done via cleanup classes17:22
rediskinwith minimum code duplication and rate limiting and retry ability17:23
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rediskinpatch is almost done https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116269/17:24
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rediskinboris-42: ^17:24
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k4n0boris-42, I am finishing up unit tests coverage blueprint https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116958/17:25
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boris-42rediskin oh it's a bit magic=)17:26
boris-42rediskin will take a look later17:26
boris-42rediskin btw what do you think about part related to deleting resources by pattern-names?17:26
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rediskinboris-42: it may be separate command17:27
rediskinrally cleanup or something similar17:27
boris-42rediskin i mean another thing17:27
boris-42rediskin would it be simpler to delete users using naming patterns?17:27
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boris-42rediskin e.g. then it will be similar in case of admin resources and user resources17:28
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rediskinwe can delete all resources in such manner17:28
boris-42rediskin nope we can't if we are deleting only by patterns17:28
boris-42rediskin e.g. by name of resource17:29
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boris-42for resource in resources.list() if pass_tempate(resource.name)17:29
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boris-42rediskin e.g. deleting all resource that are starting with rally_*17:29
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rediskindelete all rally_* volumes tenants users images etc17:29
boris-42rediskin or maybe even better rally_<task_uuid>17:30
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boris-42rediskin so it will simplify logic a lot ?17:31
boris-42rediskin and we will be able to use this stuff in both cases admin/non-admin users17:31
rediskinnot sure if lot17:31
boris-42rediskin but at least it will be similar to "rally deployment cleanup"17:31
rediskini will think about it, ok17:32
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boris-42rediskin great, I mean keep thing simple=)17:32
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boris-42#topic introduction to "rally info"17:33
*** openstack changes topic to "introduction to "rally info" (Meeting topic: rally)"17:33
boris-42Okay guys we have absolutely new command17:33
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boris-42"rally info"17:33
boris-42it's internal manual for rally =)17:33
boris-42e.g. in future you'll be able to retrieve absolutely everything via it17:33
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boris-42for now you can do something like17:34
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boris-42rally info find CeilometerAlarms17:35
boris-42and it will show pretty output17:35
boris-42any questions?17:35
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olkonamihave we already merged this?17:36
boris-42olkonami yep17:36
boris-42olkonami basic stuff yep17:36
olkonamicool ^)17:37
boris-42olkonami but there is a lot of work in this area17:37
boris-42olkonami =)17:37
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boris-42#topic Welcome Designate team=)17:37
*** openstack changes topic to "Welcome Designate team=) (Meeting topic: rally)"17:37
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boris-42ekarlso hey there17:38
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ekarlsoboris-42: ello17:38
ekarlsoi'm just hiding atm17:38
boris-42ekarlso =)17:38
boris-42ekarlso so I'll need to review some of your patches=)17:39
boris-42ekarlso but seems like gates are not in the best fit17:39
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boris-42rediskin could you help us to create a rally-gate with rally/desingate and probably other incubated projects?17:39
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boris-42ekarlso okay I hope he will help us =)17:42
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boris-42#topic Changes in Results json Schema17:43
*** openstack changes topic to "Changes in Results json Schema (Meeting topic: rally)"17:43
boris-42guys I am going to start work on new versions of json schema for output of results17:43
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boris-42e.g. currently we are facing few issues17:43
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boris-421) Stress engine can't store in native way results17:43
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boris-422) There is no way to store results if we make a engine/runner that will run multiple scenarios simultaneously17:44
boris-42so I am going to extend a bit format to cover these case17:44
boris-42this will as well involve change rally task config, graphs and rally detailed function17:44
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boris-42k4n0 rediskin olkonami ekarlso  ^17:45
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k4n0boris-42, ok, can you document this somewhere?17:45
boris-42k4n0 yep17:45
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k4n0boris-42, thanks17:45
boris-42k4n0 I am going to make google doc with changes17:45
boris-42so it will be draft to start dicussion17:45
k4n0boris-42, please share with me17:45
boris-42I'll share with everybody =)17:46
olkonamigood good17:46
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boris-42#topic Stress runner17:46
*** openstack changes topic to "Stress runner (Meeting topic: rally)"17:46
boris-42this is quite old patch ^17:47
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boris-42from olkonami ^17:47
boris-42I think that we should make it in a bit different way17:47
boris-42e.g. why not having 1 stress runner17:47
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boris-42that can use other runners17:47
boris-42and run them multiple times17:47
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boris-42so we can change a bit current runners (to add support of getting next stress arguments) or some stuff like that17:48
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boris-42but in generally *any* load generator can be used with stress stuff17:49
boris-42k4n0 olkonami rediskin thgouths?17:49
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k4n0 boris-42 1 stress runner sounds good17:49
olkonamigood thought, than may be we can extend BaseRunner for  this functionality?17:50
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boris-42olkonami ya some method should be that allows to iterate "stress" arugments17:50
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boris-42olkonami e.g. every method should describe own stress notation17:51
boris-42olkonami runner*17:51
boris-42olkonami but this will be as well related to changing format of task results17:51
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boris-42olkonami I will propose tomorrow changes17:51
boris-42olkonami so we will disucss in more details17:51
boris-42#topic free discussion17:52
*** openstack changes topic to "free discussion (Meeting topic: rally)"17:52
boris-42anybody has any questions/topics to disucss?17:52
olkonamiwhy own notation? I prefer general notation for all runner, I think it is possible17:53
boris-42olkonami it can't be general17:53
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olkonamior some general part at least17:53
boris-42olkonami cause RPS runner should be iterate in one way, Constant in antoher17:53
boris-42olkonami RPS for duration, and constant for duration in third17:53
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boris-42olkonami I don't think that it's really hard to do17:54
boris-42olkonami it's just another JSON schema17:54
boris-42olkonami like we already have17:54
boris-42olkonami https://github.com/stackforge/rally/blob/master/rally/benchmark/runners/rps.py#L98-L11717:54
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boris-42olkonami so there will be stress *one*17:55
olkonamioh, yes, I understand17:55
boris-42olkonami so we will get more control on level of runner17:55
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boris-42olkonami e.g. general stress runner will just get new values to run new iteration of stress17:55
boris-42olkonami so it will have clean logic17:56
boris-42olkonami and won't depend on other runners17:56
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boris-42we have to end meeting17:57
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:57
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openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 26 17:57:38 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:57
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-08-26-17.03.html17:57
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-08-26-17.03.txt17:57
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-08-26-17.03.log.html17:57
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dolphmayoung, bknudson, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, fmarco76, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich, hrybacki, rharwood, grantbow, vdreamarkitex, raildo, rodrigods: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting18:00
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henrynashtally-ho, a good evening to all18:00
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morganfainbergi'm guessing ayoung is on vacation since i haven't seen him on irc the last couple days.18:00
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rharwoodI believe so, yeah18:00
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bknudsonwe're allowed to vacation?18:01
dolphmbknudson: close your ears18:01
morganfainbergbknudson, lol18:01
joesavak\o o/ : )18:01
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topolo/ stevemar and I are multitasking :-)18:01
dolphm#startmeeting keystone18:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 26 18:01:52 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:01
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*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:01
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dolphm#topic Feature freeze September 4th18:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Feature freeze September 4th (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:02
dolphmso, that's NEXT WEEK!18:02
topolbknudson is free to vacation as long as that means spending all his time on keystone instead of most of it18:02
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dolphmand we're now in our review window where new features cannot be proposed, and we have a fixed list of reviews to land18:02
bknudsonthat would be nice18:02
dolphmwhich looks like this:18:03
dolphm#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/starredby:dolph+is:open,n,z18:03
gyeeNFL kick off on 9/418:03
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dolphmthat's 42 open review, 23 of which still require review/iteration18:03
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bknudsonthanks for the link!18:03
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bknudsonotherwise I'd just use next-review18:04
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dstanekthe validation stuff needs a little rework and some of the reviews will be abandoned today18:04
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dolphmyay, i'd love to shorten the list18:04
dolphmeven if it means cheating lol18:04
dolphmdstanek: but there was some redundancy in that series?18:04
morganfainberga number of the non-persistent ones are gating18:04
dstaneksome patches have merged and others are no longer needed :-)18:05
dstanekmerged into other patches still under reivew...18:05
lbragstaddstanek: just proposed https://review.openstack.org/#/c/111620/ which is the first in line18:05
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dolphmalrighty, as soon as they're no longer open they'll be dropped from that list (either merged or abandoned)18:05
lbragstadand needed to do the rest of the testing on the different validation patches18:06
topoldolphm, so they all need to be merged by 9/4 correct?18:06
stevemarjsonhome and non-persistent are lookin real good!18:06
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raildodolphm:  I have some patches about hierarchical projects that need to be reviewed18:06
lbragstadwait... sorry, wrong link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116954/118:06
dolphmraildo: i'd like to get those into a feature for juno as well18:07
henrynashdolphm, raildo: I’ll volunteer to give those a good review18:07
stevemarwhile we're on the topic of pleading for reviews, can i get folks to look at the keystone2keystone stuff :)18:07
bknudsonare the hierarchical projects on https://review.openstack.org/#/q/starredby:dolph+is:open,n,z ?18:07
raildohenrynash: great, i will send for you18:07
stevemari'll be more than happy to walk people through18:07
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bknudsonand k2k?18:08
dolphmbknudson: no, they're not targeted to juno-318:08
dstanekdolphm: can you star those too?18:08
bknudsonjuno-4 ??18:08
stevemarbknudson, it needs love, we finally got our requirements patch landed18:08
topolbknudson, we get ajun-4???18:08
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dolphmbknudson: dstanek: no, i'd like to land them in a feature branch rather than master18:08
dstanekdolphm: ah, ok18:08
raildohenrynash: #link http://paste.openstack.org/raw/100590/18:08
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morganfainbergdolphm, there are 2 more minor things to get in for FF if possible, in the non-persistent line, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116961/ and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116962/ mostly quality of life fixes no functional changes18:09
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dstanekraildo: the last time i looked i was pretty happy with how things were going18:09
bknudsonthere's no keystoneclient in https://review.openstack.org/#/q/starredby:dolph+is:open,n,z ...18:09
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morganfainbergbknudson, ksc and middleware don't have FF in the same way18:10
bknudsonso I don't know if there's anything that we'd really like to have.18:10
raildodstanek: thank you, the code is almost ready18:10
dolphmbknudson: the client falls outside the named release cycle, so it's not under feature freeze, etc18:10
morganfainbergbknudson, they are released independent of the named cycles18:10
bknudsonI realize it's not the same but I assume there'll be a release at about the time of juno18:10
dolphmbknudson: usually aim for a last release closer to rc118:10
bknudsonok, can focus on those then18:11
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henrynashdolphm: the endpoint-policy extenion is in godo shape…but queued up behind getting the endpoint/region/region_id fix in18:11
raildodstanek: henrynash We divided into several patches to facilitate the review,because the change is a little big18:11
dolphmhenrynash: that's what i've heard :) the Region ID fix looks pretty close last i checked as well18:12
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dstanekraildo: yes, i've been reviewing them periodically for a week or so18:12
henrynashdolphm: indeed…I’ll working with KanagarajM to get that in (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/113183/21)18:12
dolphmraildo: and impactful :) we'll need to work together later to get those same patches propoposed to a new branch instead of master18:12
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raildodolphm:  Ok, I think we can talk about this after the meeting :)18:13
dolphmwe also have two outstanding work items on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/deprecated-as-of-juno that were "assigned" to ayoung and jamielennox, but they appear to be out18:14
dolphmoh jamielennox is back!18:14
dolphmi stand corrected18:14
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jamielennoxsorry VPN issues18:14
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jamielennoxgot here eventually18:14
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dolphmjamielennox: no worries18:14
morganfainbergdolphm, i'll be working on the auth plugin test bits18:14
morganfainbergdolphm, it's just refactoring some tests nothing more18:14
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jamielennoxthe /auth endpoints are merged in keystone18:14
jamielennoxthe identity-api review is still up18:15
dolphmmorganfainberg: test bits?18:15
dolphmjamielennox: oh we missed the api review?!18:15
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morganfainbergdolphm, yeah the support for loading auth_plugins by class name is the one from ayoung18:15
jamielennox#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/115423/18:15
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dolphmmorganfainberg: ++ it has a deprecation message, but doesn't say anything more than 'deprecated.' what's the state of tests?18:15
dolphmjamielennox: damn, thanks18:16
jamielennoxdolphm: the identity-api part is mostly formality as the response format will be the same as existing responses18:16
stevemardolphm, i have a few reviews to move some specs to Kilo18:16
morganfainbergdolphm, just need to do a little bit of work to register some config options and de-register them18:16
jamielennoxso yes we missed it, but not a big deal here18:16
dolphmjamielennox: still, we need docs :)18:16
morganfainbergdolphm, it's just stopping using the plugins='<class.path.in.keystone>,<other.plugin.class.path>' and going back to the (in my opinion awful), plugins = "name, name name", and separate options for each class18:17
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dolphmbut there was a use case that the deprecated option didn't easily support - using the same plugin under multiple names18:18
morganfainbergdolphm, since the class-name loading was not documented people went down the path of assuming it wasn't used and developed whole processes around plungins not "knowing" their method.18:18
morganfainbergdolphm, yep.18:18
bknudsonYou'd think we'd use stevedore for plugins18:18
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henrynashdolphm: did we ever mark the kvs backends for idenity and assignent as deprecated?  If so, could we kill them?18:19
morganfainbergdolphm, which is why i was willing to let that deprecated option go, and why i'll fix the tests to not use that method (the class-name-method was never documented)18:19
dolphmhenrynash: good question, not sure?18:19
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morganfainberghenrynash, no i don't think they've been marked as deprecated18:19
gyeebknudson, can't, plugins are deployment-specific, unless we shipt the plugins in separate package18:19
henrynashdolphm: I’m looking, but can’t see them marked18:19
stevemardown with kvs backends!18:19
dolphmhenrynash: happy to deprecate them this cycle18:20
henrynashdolphm: agreed18:20
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morganfainbergdolphm, henrynash, the initial thought was to do dogpile for them, but honestly, i don't see a big benefit18:20
dolphmexcept morganfainberg's token backend? (morganfainberg?)18:20
morganfainbergdolphm, please don't deprecate the tokne one :)18:20
henrynashdolphm, morganfainberg: I’d swear I’ve seen logs saying their deprecate, but maybe in my dreams18:20
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dolphmhenrynash: fantasies*18:21
morganfainberghenrynash, the token kvs one will report deprecated18:21
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henrynashmorganfainberg: ah, right…I think that was it18:21
morganfainberghenrynash, i'll fix that by making a "test" one that doesn't log that18:21
dolphmmorganfainberg: but it shouldn't?18:21
bknudsonthe one kvs backend we want to keep is deprecated?18:21
morganfainbergoh oh wait18:21
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bknudsonI think some kind of kvs backend is deprecated18:22
bknudsonlike a base kvs backend or something.18:22
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dolphmwe should have a centralized list of everything that's deprecated, sorted by when it'll be removed :(18:22
morganfainbergthe base key-value-store is deprecated18:22
bknudsonremove in J18:23
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morganfainbergbut the KVS identity backend, and assignment backend were not explicitly marked18:23
morganfainbergas the initial thought was to re-implement with dogpile18:23
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dolphmthe token backend is the only one i'd appreciate having a kvs option for18:24
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dolphmdogpile or not, but preferrably dogpile18:24
morganfainbergdolphm, and that one uses dogpile18:24
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dolphmso using a KVS assignment driver **doesn't** log a deprecation warning for example, correct?18:24
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morganfainbergdolphm, it would log a deprecation message that keystone.common.kvs.KeyValueStore is deprecated18:25
morganfainbergdolphm, not that assignment.kvs was18:25
morganfainbergis deprecated18:25
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dolphmhmm... and was that a +1 or +2 release deprecation?18:26
morganfainbergprobably not strong enough to remove assignment/identity kvs stores18:26
morganfainbergit was a +1, deprecated in icehouse18:26
henrynashdolphm: ICEHOUSE+118:26
dolphmmaybe we should bump that to icehouse+2 and deprecate the actual drivers?18:26
morganfainbergdolphm, sure18:27
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dolphmso for juno, it'll just be a stronger warning18:27
morganfainbergdolphm, i'm on board with that18:27
henrynashdolphm: me too18:27
henrynashdolphm : and then we get to kill identity and assignment in Kilo18:27
morganfainbergand K1 they can disappear... and lighten a ton of code out of our codebase (and tests)18:27
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dolphmhenrynash: \o/18:28
henrynashdolphm: excellent!!!18:28
dolphmand that's like next week or something assuming we have no bugs18:28
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bknudsonwe can spend more time keeping the ldap backend up with sql18:28
henrynashdolphm: sign me up that one!18:28
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dolphmhenrynash: sign up for tweaking the deprecation now, or removing it in kilo?18:28
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henrynashdolphm: removing in Kilo…but happy to do the dpreciation now too18:29
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dolphmhenrynash: done https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/deprecated-as-of-juno18:30
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dolphmmorganfainberg: so, on the auth plugin naming thing - are you going to improve the current warning message, or something else?18:31
morganfainbergdolphm, i'll improve the message but that method of loading plugins wasn't documented18:31
morganfainbergdolphm, more importantly i'll fix the tests to not use that method of loading plugins (without going back to config files)18:31
dolphmmorganfainberg: the deprecated way wasn't documented?18:31
morganfainbergbut all the tests used it18:32
dolphmah, gotcha18:32
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morganfainbergi'm not too worried about someone using that method.18:32
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gyeemorganfainberg, but we can support both :)18:33
morganfainberggyee, no, we can't. if someone uses the plugins multuple times, with different names, you can't mix/match18:33
morganfainberggyee, so we'll just remove the load-by-classname support in K? L?18:33
morganfainbergand go back to the old way.18:34
bknudsonI'd just write a plugin and have it report a different name.18:34
dolphmso, i hope this isn't lofty with 23 remaining reviews (plus these little patches to improve deprecations), but my goal this week to have all juno-3 things approved and gating by CoB friday so we can have a few days to fight the gate18:34
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bknudsonwhy would I have plugins multiple times with different names?18:34
dolphmso *please* *please* *please* pitch in on reviews18:35
dolphmbknudson: your solution was my solution as well18:35
morganfainbergbknudson, mapped can be used for SAML, OpenID, K2K, etc18:35
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morganfainbergbknudson, my solution would be yours18:35
gyeebknudson, difference is dynamic versus static18:35
dolphmbknudson: which is why i think i re-prioritized a high/critical bug by ayoung to a wishlist18:35
morganfainbergbknudson, but i gave up on the argument.18:35
morganfainberggyee, i think the dynamic is really sloppy in this case, but it is what people are using and it works. - there are more important arguments to be had18:36
gyeemapped is generic by nature18:36
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morganfainberggyee, the argument is i want to use "password" but call it "CoolPassword" instead but not break people using "Password"18:37
morganfainberg(bad example, but it's really waht people are asking for)18:37
morganfainbergso instead of subclassing and making a new "CoolPassword" plugin, just use the plugin twice with a different name18:37
morganfainbergsame argument for anything that uses mapped, might be a different name, but mapped is the core plugin code18:38
gyeethere's only *one* plugin to handle a given auth payload18:38
morganfainberggyee, right but if you want to use the same plugin for different auth payloads18:39
morganfainbergthe plugin doesn't care, it's just handed a payload18:39
bknudsonwe could use a fancy format like class:plugin_name18:39
dolphmmorganfainberg: are all your patches in the check queue?18:39
morganfainbergdolphm, yes.18:40
bknudsoncan I pass options to the plugin?18:40
morganfainbergdolphm, the rest of non-persistent will be a Kilo target :(18:40
bknudsonbtw - were we going to make UUID tokens the default?18:40
morganfainbergdolphm, too many roadblocks fixing revocation events etc to land the refactor of issuance/validate18:40
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dolphmmorganfainberg: understood. i'm going to keep the bp on the juno-3 list until what made FF is merged - plus those two tiny patches18:40
morganfainbergbknudson, that was -2'd by ayoung.18:41
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morganfainbergbknudson, there is a lot of detail on the discussion on that front in the IRC logs and on that patch18:41
morganfainbergdolphm, ++18:41
dolphmif you'd like to vote for/against changing the default token provider from PKI to UUID https://review.openstack.org/#/c/110488/18:42
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morganfainbergoh on that topic18:43
morganfainbergresults to the survey on token provider usage18:43
morganfainberg#link https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-LX589JF8/18:43
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bknudson30% are able to use PKI.18:44
dolphmmorganfainberg: i wish you could correlate the comments with responses18:44
jamielennoxmorganfainberg: do you need to sanitize the long form answers before publishing that18:44
morganfainbergyou can18:44
jamielennoxdolphm:  click the 'individual responses' link18:45
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morganfainbergjamielennox, eh, i don't think so.18:45
bknudsonthey use PKI for security?18:45
dolphmjameiooh thanks18:45
dolphmmorganfainberg: thanks18:45
dolphmbknudson: that's the one i was wondering about actually.18:45
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dolphmPKI provides a completely false sense of additional security18:45
gyeePKI token doesn't offer any more security18:45
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gyeeI thought the main argument was performance18:46
morganfainberggyee, arguably in grizzly it provided LESS security18:46
dolphmgyee: that is true18:46
dolphmgyee: pretty sure our docs say that as well18:46
dolphmmorganfainberg: in ...every... release18:46
morganfainbergdolphm, but people like "OMG CRYPTO"18:46
dolphm3 so far18:46
gyeedolphm, I am fine with default it back to UUID18:47
morganfainbergthis one: We have a black box appliance that act likes a WAF but it only understands UUID token18:47
gyeemorganfainberg, crypto != security18:47
morganfainbergmeaning... it probably only understands v2 uuid.18:47
dolphmgyee: tell our users that :(18:47
morganfainberggyee, what dolphm said18:47
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gyeeyeah, +218:47
dolphmit's sort of silly that our default option is historically unstable and less secure even after 3 releases (and about to be 4)... and still not a realistic option in production18:48
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morganfainbergthis one is interesting:18:48
morganfainberg1) PKI token -- Not user friendly ( Too dificult to use with CURL)18:48
morganfainberg2) Horizon by default converts PKI to UDDI internally ( this will not work, if someone change default hashing algorithim)18:48
morganfainberg3) Revoke token logic is not that reliable. We don't have system bus to collect revocation event. It is easy to say, use event, but it is difficult to setup and manage that infrastructure just for revocation events18:48
morganfainbergi think that sums up the general view on PKI18:48
morganfainbergthat i've heard18:48
* morganfainberg wonders if that was gyee 's response >.>18:49
jamielennoxalso we keep having needs to put more stuff in the token (or auth response) and it's just not going to work with PKI18:49
jamielennoxlots of problems in there for PKI header size18:49
dolphmmorganfainberg: ++18:49
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gyeemorganfainberg, 4) all of the above18:49
HaneefI know for sure,  it is not from gyee18:49
dolphmgyee: that was all in one response lol18:49
morganfainbergHaneef, haha ok :)18:50
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dolphmjamielennox: as much as i'd hate to agree with adding more stuff to the token... ++18:50
morganfainbergdolphm, i think we can make uuid tokens *way* better18:50
jamielennoxdolphm: well the 'adding more stuff to the token' issue is primarily only a problem because of PKI18:50
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dolphmmorganfainberg: me too18:50
jamielennoxmorganfainberg: ++18:51
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dolphmjamielennox: it's also a problem for us when we try to parse apart the token, and there's always new attributes etc... i wish we could simplify all that18:51
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bknudsonwe need to figure out at the summit how to get tokens to work... it shouldn't be this difficult.18:52
jamielennoxdolphm: right but our lack of good token format that people abuse is not a problem about the size and 'official' content in there18:52
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gyeejamielennox, are you advocating xml token? :)18:52
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morganfainbergbknudson, i think we can make tokens better, and if we focus on making uuid tokens better we could also move towards signed requests instead of x-auth-token (long term)18:53
jamielennoxgyee: i think you can get a token response as XML with UUID ?18:53
morganfainbergbknudson, i've floated some ideas on the token improvements, but i know some people are against it.18:53
dolphmmorganfainberg: so just switch to oauth?18:53
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stevemaropen id connect :D18:53
dolphmjamielennox: yes you can18:53
bknudsonit seems like we shouldn't be inventing something when there must be an existing solution.18:54
morganfainbergbknudson, i actually was thinking the EC2 model is pretty nice.18:54
bknudsonmorganfainberg: I looked at it a little bit and it looks better than what we've got.18:54
dolphmmorganfainberg: how is it different from oauth?18:54
dolphmreal ec2, not our shared secret hack18:55
morganfainbergdolphm, keypair and HMAC sign your request, then the endpoint does some backend lookup for extra auth18:55
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gyeemorganfainberg, ++18:55
morganfainbergdolphm, they use a distributed fast store that the endpoints can lookup the data from afaict18:55
gyeexacml, yay18:56
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dolphmmorganfainberg: i said "different" from oauth?18:56
morganfainbergdolphm, LOL18:56
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gyeewait, endpoint policy is sorta like xacml18:56
morganfainbergdolphm, well oauth1 sucks :P18:56
morganfainbergdolphm, oauth2 is closer to that18:56
morganfainbergdolphm, i was thinking different than *out* oauth18:56
stevemardolphm, morganfainberg fwiw, cloud foundry uses oauth2 and openid connect for their authZ, authN ... https://github.com/cloudfoundry/uaa/blob/master/docs/UAA-APIs.rst18:57
stevemarjust tossing that one out there18:57
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jamielennoxthat's the format of oauth requests, but given that we don't want all the delegation stuff why would we call it oauth218:57
morganfainbergpart of our issue is the keystone internal idp isn't a full featured idp and a lot of people use it18:58
topolum yeah, that does kind of work and seems so standard :-)18:58
bknudsonwe can steal their rest api18:58
gyeebig corporate = standard18:58
morganfainbergdolphm, 2min left18:58
topolgyee, you STARTUP guy :-)18:58
morganfainbergi think we should plan to do a "fix the tokens... no really" summit session18:59
topolfix the tokens .. no really we mean it this time18:59
* lbragstad plans to attend 18:59
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morganfainbergand be willing to assume uuid and PKI are off the table.18:59
morganfainbergin their current forms18:59
dolphmpretty sure i just dropped for a bit - just switched from wifi to not19:00
morganfainbergwe're at time19:00
* dolphm REVIEWS PLZ! https://review.openstack.org/#/q/starredby:dolph+is:open,n,z19:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 26 19:00:52 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-08-26-18.01.html19:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-08-26-18.01.txt19:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-08-26-18.01.log.html19:00
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jeblair#startmeeting infra19:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 26 19:01:28 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:01
jeblair#link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting19:01
jeblair#link last meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-19-19.02.html19:01
jeblair#topic  Actions from last meeting19:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
jeblair jeblair Publish python-jenkins 0.3.3 (last release without pbr) tarball to pypi19:02
jeblairthat happened19:02
jeblairso did 0.3.419:02
jeblairbecause 0.3.3 was broken19:02
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fungiif there were no broken releases we'd never have new releases ;)19:02
anteayaha ha ha19:02
jesusaurusheh, true19:02
jeblairbut now i think that's all taken care of, and the next (0.4.0?) release can be done by zaro by pushing a tag in the normal way19:02
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jeblair pleia2 create new mailing lists19:03
zaroi think that will happen in about a month.19:03
pleia2that was done, anteaya will talk about it later in the meeting19:03
jeblair#link http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/third-party-announce19:03
anteayaI can talk now19:03
jeblairpleia2: i reordered :)19:03
anteayathey are up19:03
pleia2oh good :)19:03
anteayathanks pleia219:03
jeblair#link http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/third-party-request19:03
anteayathis is my first time admining lists, feedback welcome19:04
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/11698919:04
anteayaand that is the patch to redirect folks to use the lists19:04
anteayaa speedy iteration prevents a week of transition19:04
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jeblairyeah, probably best to do this quickly to avoid confusion19:04
jeblairare there outstanding requests from folks we have received on the infra list?19:05
clarkbjeblair: there are a few yes19:05
pleia2a couple19:05
anteayaI'm standing by to offer new patchsets for 116989 if folks have -1s19:05
jeblairokay, we should probably avoid asking people to resubmit on the new list, that's just silly19:05
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jeblairi think when anteaya's change merges, we should announce the new policy to the old list19:05
jeblairask everyone to subscribe to the announce list19:06
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jeblairand new requests go to the request list19:06
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jeblairand explicitly mention that old requests don't need to be resubmitted19:06
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anteayaI can bulk import gerrit email addresses to the announce list19:06
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anteayaanyone think that is a bad idea?19:06
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jeblairanteaya: we could consider inviting them, but not actually subscribing them19:07
anteayaokay, I can invite them19:07
jeblairanteaya: mailman lets you do either in bulk19:07
pleia2anteaya: that's an option in the interface19:07
anteayaif we prefer I invite, I will invite19:07
jeblair(they'll get a message saying 'click here to confirm' etc)19:07
jeblairyeah.  i'd be very much opposed to subscribing without confirmation19:07
fungiright, never bulk-subscribe people without prior consent or a very, very good reason19:07
anteayashould reduce some cruft right off the bat19:07
anteayainvite it shall be19:08
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anteayaI think that was all I needed here19:08
anteayaanything I am missing?19:08
anteayaokay thanks19:08
jeblair#action anteaya invite third-party email addrs from gerrit to announce list19:09
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jeblairwho wants to send the email to -infra announcing the new lists/policies after 116989 merges?19:09
* jeblair is happy to if no one else loves that idea19:09
pleia2I can do it19:10
fungii can as well19:10
* fungi bows to pleia2 ;)19:10
anteayaeveryone wants that job19:10
jeblair#action pleia2 send the email to -infra announcing the new lists/policies after 116989 merges19:10
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jeblairanteaya, pleia2: thanks!19:11
pleia2anteaya: left a comment in the review19:11
jeblair#topic  Priority Specs (jeblair)19:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Specs (jeblair) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:11
clarkbI left one too which expanded on pleia2's19:11
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100363/19:11
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fungii think that one's probably ready for approval unless more people want to go through it?19:11
clarkbI was happy with it19:12
* nibalizer here to answer questions19:12
fungior unless nibalizer wants to address any of the suggestions on that last patchset19:12
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nibalizerill update it for those suggestions19:13
nibalizerclarkb: did you want to talk more about the symlink?19:13
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clarkbnibalizer: not here, if you update the spec about what that is for I think that is enough19:13
nibalizerokay sweet19:13
nibalizerwill do19:13
jeblairnibalizer: also, "Set hiera.yaml appropriately to source both dirs in order" -- does that need more detail too?19:13
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jeblairthat's an infra-root action, right?19:13
nibalizerjeblair: no hiera.yaml will be managed by puppet19:14
nibalizerit should be a file resource19:14
jeblairok nevermind then.  it can be documented in the puppet19:14
wenlocknibalizer, as a side note, we use hieradata strucutre on forj.io, we manage this with puppet, no symlinks required19:14
jeblairnibalizer: so we'll wait for your update about the rationale for the symlink, then it looks like it's ready to approve19:14
nibalizerokay cool19:15
jeblairwenlock: maybe you could weigh in on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100363 after nibalizer writes the update?19:15
nibalizerwenlock: lets follow up after the nmeeting19:15
wenlockyes, i'll read up on it today19:15
jeblairwenlock: that way we'll know if we're doing something different than you are that requires it, or if we've missed something and don't really need it :)19:16
wenlocknibalizer, sounds good, we can point you to our source on that19:16
jeblair#link  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/99990/19:16
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jeblairi think this is probably ready modulo syntax errors?19:16
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nibalizeri think at this point that one is us fighting with restructured text parsing19:17
wenlockjeblair, i'd like to propose that you use librarian-puppet as option in install_module.sh to manage the repos19:17
clarkbI need to rereview it with the new problem statement but yes I think it is pretty close19:17
clarkbwenlock: I will -2 that :)19:17
nibalizerbut i think for the ideas there we're largely getting consensus19:17
clarkbwenlock: we can talk about why after the meeting19:17
jesusaurusi think i cleaned up all the syntax errors, but the work items could use a re-review19:17
wenlockjeblair +2 for subtree workflow too, this worked nice on our side19:17
wenlockclarkb, yes, i'd like to understand how you will manage tags/revs, etc.19:17
jeblairjesusaurus: it's currently failing tests19:18
anteayanibalizer: I agree with the content of 99990 if we can get the rst parsing figured out19:18
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jesusaurusjeblair: thats an old test, it should get through the check queue in like 6 hours or so19:18
jeblairoh ok19:18
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/110730/19:18
jeblairoh no, i have unaddressed comments19:19
fungijesusaurus: i added some comments to the latest patchset as well (i had them in draft for an earlier one)19:19
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jeblairanyway, i think resolution to the comments already in that one is straightforward, so please go ahead and review with that in mind19:20
jesusaurusfungi: thanks19:20
fungijeblair: i have some more in draft i need to add too, though i can port them forward to the next iteration if i don't get to it before you update19:20
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jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/110793/19:21
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jeblaira few updates noted inline there19:21
clarkbjeblair: I think you need to make at least one edit to 110793 as well19:22
clarkbjeblair: but it is pretty close19:22
jeblairprobably the main thing is that there's a section where i list 3 options for openstack-manuals19:22
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jeblairoption 2 is yucky.  option 3 is probably the default option because it doesn't really change anything from the docs pov19:23
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jeblairoption 1 actually simplifies the jobs somewhat, at the cost of some extra cpu time19:23
clarkbI am a fan on 119:24
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jeblairi should probably work with AJaeger on quantifying that and seeing what the impact would be19:24
jeblairanything else on these specs?19:25
fungiyeah, i think i'm really okay with any of the three options, keeping in mind that eventual optimization with afs will probably trump any of them for efficiency anyway19:25
fungiso simpler==better for now probably19:26
jeblair#topic  Translations demos active, sent to Daisy (pleia2)19:26
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pleia2this is mostly an FYI19:26
pleia2we have demos up for both zanata on wildfly and pootle 2.619:27
jeblairpleia2: do you have an idea of the relative ease of pupetting those two options?19:27
clarkbnote the pootle 2.6 demo has not had translate-dev dns udpated to point at it because we lack openid and I want to keep it in a position where its really just a demo and not a dev server19:27
pleia2we have step by step instructions for how they both were deployed in etherpads, but neither of them will be easy19:27
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pleia2zanata is a bit trickier since the wildfly support is not official yet, so it's a bit hacky as they continue to work on it19:28
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clarkbI think the biggest thing from pootle side is that we will have to run the various django managementy commands some of which expect human input (may need a graphite like hack for that)19:28
jeblairpleia2: we do run one django app via puppet (graphite)19:28
fungipleia2: also a gut feel for which would require more ongoing care and feeding (infra core effort)?19:28
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pleia2fungi: zanata, since we don't work with jboss/wildfly today, and we do work with django19:28
clarkbI do have a couple concerns about pootle. The first is allauth makes the openid stuff harder not easier :/ and second the UI is thoroughly unintuitive at least to me19:29
clarkbbut for the second thing I defer to the translation team(s)19:29
anteayahow long do the translation folks need to complete their assessment?19:29
pleia2I haven't looked deeply into zanata's openid support, but right now in our demo it is taking the https://launchpad.net/~lyz addresses as logins (we'll need to simplify and restrict this)19:29
jeblairclarkb: what do you think needs to happen for openid?19:30
jeblairpleia2: in either case, i think nothing short of openid sso is acceptable19:30
pleia2anteaya: uncertain, we're getting to the point in the cycle where they will be really busy with translations work19:30
jeblairclarkb: for pootle19:30
anteayapleia2: fair19:30
clarkbjeblair: allauth needs to support a single openid provider (there is an open bug for this). also allauth and/or pootle need to learn how to do a single type of auth19:30
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clarkbjeblair: today it looks like you always get local auth in addition to whatever allauth other mechanisms you have enabled19:31
pleia2as far as evaluation, Daisy has admin on both systems and I'll be working with her to help present the demos to the team on a schedule she determines19:31
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clarkbthere is an open bug against pootle for the second thing which I need to follow up on and possibly file a bug against allauth for19:31
anteayayay Daisy19:31
pleia2if anyone else wants admin, lmk19:31
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anteayapleia2: you're a great admin :D19:32
jeblairpleia2: do you have any idea how receptive the pootle dev(s) would be to this kind of work?19:32
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pleia2jeblair: they've really been leaning on django for all openid stuff, clarkb has some open bugs that they've responded  to19:32
clarkbjeblair: pleia2: ya I think they would be receptive but have already said go fix it in allauth19:32
jeblairhow about zanata?  what's it take for openid there?19:34
pleia2it works, haven't looked into restricting to only openid19:34
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jeblairi should say openid sso19:34
jeblaircause it sounds like right now, it asks for your openid, right?19:34
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pleia2yeah, so where it wants openid just put in your http://launchpad.net/~user address19:35
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jeblairand it also has the "and a local account" problem19:35
jeblairwell, i added openid sso to gerrit; i could probably add it to zanata too :)19:36
pleia2I don't know what mechanism they're using for this, but they've been eager to help us get support for other things we need19:36
jeblaireven better if they do it :)19:36
jeblairi also added it to pootle, but that's neither here nor there19:36
pleia2I think that's it for this week, we'll tackle issues down the road as we come to them and the translations team gets a better idea of what works for them19:37
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jeblairi think from our pov, openid-sso is critical, and easy of installation/maintenance is the next most important19:37
* pleia2 nods19:38
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pleia2zanata install steps: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zanata-install19:38
jeblair#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zanata-install19:38
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pleia2pootle install steps (down at line 47 and below): https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/pootle-250-upgrade19:38
jeblair#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/pootle-250-upgrade19:39
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jeblairwe probably have some anti-patters in puppet for gerrit that we can crib for some of the zanata stuff19:40
pleia2oh, and zanata will probably be available via ansible..recipes? so hopefully we'd be able to convert them to puppet19:40
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jeblairpleia2: cool, thanks19:40
jeblair#topic  Open discussion19:40
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anteayaso something has come out of the reviews so far on my patch19:41
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anteayawhat are the expectations for thrid party folks regarding the two new lists19:41
fungithe upcoming renames list has the dashboard puppet module on it, proposed to go to openstack-attic... that can come off the list right?19:41
anteayaI want all third party folks to subscribe to both lists19:41
anteayato announce to keep alert for their system if it is disabled19:41
anteayato request to help me out19:42
jeblairfungi: yeah, we should just merge a change to readme saying it's dead19:42
fungijeblair: i'll propose a bunch of "it's dead jim" patches to projects in the same boat in that case19:42
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jeblairanteaya: i think that would be useful.  i think announce should be considered a requirement (i don't intend on policing it); requests is a nice-to-have19:43
anteayaonly if I can call you bones, fungi19:43
anteayajeblair: I can live with that19:43
anteayaI'm not going to police either list19:43
anteayabut if they don't know their system is disabled it is on them19:43
fungii think announce should be a very strong suggestion, since if we're making changes you need to be aware of or taking your systems offline, that's where you're going to find out about it19:44
jeblairanteaya: exactly19:44
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anteayafungi: I tried to capture that strong suggestion in the wording of my patch19:44
krtaylorI vote requirement19:44
anteayakrtaylor: no19:44
fungiand if you aren't subscribed to the announce list or aren't paying attention, then it's your problem not ours19:44
anteayarequirements are basis for disabling a system if they aren't met19:44
krtayloranteaya, why not?19:45
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anteayaif they aren't subscribed to announce disablying their system isn't going to be my action19:45
jeblairanteaya: it will also be where we send notifications of policy changes (lack of adherence to which would get systems disabled too)19:45
anteayajeblair: agreed19:45
krtaylorI am thinking more in terms of announcements that CI teams will want to know, that is important19:46
krtaylorwhat jeblair said19:46
anteayafungi: also I have tried to capture the strong wording in teh message on the landing page for the list19:46
anteayakrtaylor: right19:46
krtaylorso why wouldn't it be a requirement? we need a global communication channel19:47
anteayarequirements are what gets your system disabled if you don't have them19:47
krtayloror not granted in the first place19:47
anteayaI am not going to disable a system if they don't subscribe to a mailing list19:47
anteayathey are foolish if they don't, but that is on them19:48
krtaylorI don't think that would be a problem, but listing it in the requirements section would be ok19:48
anteayaI disagree19:48
fungihowever they may get disabled because they missed announcements on that mailing list, or they might not find out in a timely manner that they were disabled because we reached out to them via that list19:48
anteayafungi: true19:49
anteayaagain their responsibility19:49
anteayasome of the onus has to be on them for their actions19:49
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krtaylortrue, but not a good track record of that, at least initially19:50
anteayaso anyway I hope taht clarifies my patch19:50
krtaylorI am happy we have the lists, hopefully everyone will sign up19:51
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jeblairwell, if that's it, i reckon we can end early19:53
clarkboh I did the tox and trusty stuff19:53
clarkbit went mostly ok19:53
jeblairoh cool19:54
fungiit went remarkably well, i thought19:54
clarkbglance hiccuped and so did a couple of our tools and stackforge puppet19:54
anteayayay tox and trusty19:54
clarkbbut considering we have several hundred projects it went well :)19:54
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clarkbthats it19:54
fungiand some review teams got a bit of a learning experience about prioritizing prerequisite changes for scheduled infra activities19:54
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clarkbbut we are future proofed until tox does their next release19:55
jeblairclarkb: is there more to do with trusty?  eg, zuul layout?19:55
hasharhey. is that open discussion yet? :D19:56
clarkbjeblair: nope, not unless the stackforge puppet team wants to move puppet 2.7 back to precise19:56
pleia2hashar: has been for quite some time :)19:56
nibalizerclarkb: yeaaaaa19:56
nibalizerso i think that gate is busted19:56
clarkbnibalizer: even with mgagne's fix?19:56
nibalizerdid that land?19:56
nibalizerhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/116915/ ?19:56
hasharso for those that don't know me, I am the continuous guy at wikimedia foundation and I have basically copy pasted Zuul setup to our infra.19:56
jeblairhashar: and improved zuul :)19:57
hasharI would like to hereby publicly thank you in the name of me and the wikimedia foundation folks for all your hard work supporting third party installation19:57
nibalizerclarkb: its like i was saying yesterday, 'double puppet install' isnt the problem, ruby 1.9.3 is the problem19:57
hasharfrom Zuul (which is awesome) to kindly maintaining python-jenkins19:57
jeblairhashar: oh, you're very welcome!19:57
fungihashar: you're welcome, and thanks for all your help too!19:57
mgagneclarkb: so much lag, no result yet on my test :-/19:57
jeblairhashar: thank you for using it and helping us make it better19:57
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zarohashar: thanks in turn for your contributions!19:58
hasharour jobs are stressful, and little time is spent to say thanks.  So here you have:  merci beaucoup !19:58
anteayathanks hashar19:58
mgagne-> Thank you for helping us help you help us all.19:58
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jeblairand we're going to start using hashar's zuul-cloner soon :)19:58
hasharand I got Zuul cloner deployed in production last week. It is now voting as of today ! :D19:59
jeblairmgagne: well put! :)19:59
fungihashar: also, in a broader context, thanks for keeping mediawiki and by extension wikipedia working. i use them both a lot19:59
hashar(((that is on Wikimedia production, not OpenStack! )))19:59
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ttxI used that too19:59
clarkbhashar: nice!19:59
jeblairfungi, hashar: ++19:59
mgagnewith GLaDOS' voice19:59
hasharyeah MediaWiki is quite fun :]19:59
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clarkbhashar: and thank you!19:59
hasharthought it can be scary and is not yet as tested as openstack can be. But we are working on it!20:00
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jeblairwhat a nice way to end a meeting :)20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
mgagne2h15m lag as of now20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 26 20:00:22 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-26-19.01.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-26-19.01.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-26-19.01.log.html20:00
mgagnewrong channel20:00
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ttxoooook... Anyone here for the TC meeting ?20:00
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mgagneoh, just got mentioned on meeting, didn't see ^^'20:00
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ttxannegentle, mikal, mordred, devananda, vishy, markmcclain, jaypipes, dhellmann : around ?20:01
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ttxthat makes 7.20:01
ttx#startmeeting tc20:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 26 20:01:48 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:01
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ttxOur agenda for today:20:02
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ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee20:02
ttxdevananda is proxied by jeblair20:02
ttx#topic A program for Rally (part 2)20:02
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/10850220:02
ttxSo this is the continuation of the discussion we started on August 520:02
ttxWe paused for a couple of weeks to see if a middle ground was possible where the QA program would adopt Rally, but those efforts were not very successful20:03
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ttxAt this point I think it's fair to conclude that Rally won't be adopted by the QA program20:03
ttxWhich leaves two options:20:03
ttxA/ consider that benchmarking is essential to the completion of the OpenStack project mission, and accept a Benchmarking (or SLA management, or...) program20:03
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ttxB/ consider that Rally would be more successful as a product built on top of OpenStack for the time being20:03
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ttxwhich basically translates into accepting the abovementioned review (or some variant of it) or rejecting it20:04
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ttxThere are a number of -1s on that review, but they don't all mean the same thing20:04
russellbseems collaboration has been pretty bumpy, which makes me worry about accepting the program20:04
ttxsome of them are about exploring the QA option (jeblair, markmcclain, russellb)20:04
russellbso i'm leaning toward B at this point20:04
ttxsome are discussing program names (markmc, devananda)20:04
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boris-42russellb btw why?20:05
markmcyeah, I'm disappointed how the thread went20:05
boris-42russellb in such case I am not sure that we will have same ability to help projects like QA20:05
ttxjeblair, markmcclain: Now that the QA option is out of the table, would you mind clarifying where you stand (on the A/B choice above) ?20:05
markmcwas hopeful some concrete plan for collaboration would come out of it20:05
boris-42russellb e.g. blocking adding rally gates20:05
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russellbmarkmc: right20:05
boris-42russellb markmc  actually to be fair we tempest & rally are resolving quite different use cases20:06
boris-42russellb markmc  and it's okay that there are 2 tools for 2 different things20:06
russellbit's not even just that part20:06
boris-42russellb ?20:06
ttxI'm leaning like Russell... if that can't work within QA at this point I tend to lean towards (B), at least for the time being20:06
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russellbeven small things like the proposal for the nova job20:06
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russellbbut anyway, i'm not sure what we get by accepting the program right now, you can still keep doing what you're doing20:06
markmcclainttx: I'm leaning towards B20:07
boris-42russellb yep but I will get every time -1 from QA guys20:07
ttxI think it's one of those areas that could benefit from us not blessing a particular solution today20:07
russellbwould rather accept it when it's more obvious how integrated rally is to the way we work20:07
jeblairi feel strongly enough that much of the work rally is doing should be done in QA and in tempest20:07
boris-42russellb when I will try to do something useful for projects20:07
jeblairi agree 100% with sdague's email here: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-August/041818.html20:07
boris-42russellb but it's already integrated..20:07
boris-42jeblair I am not sure about this20:07
boris-42jeblair the reason is the different view of how things should be done20:07
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boris-42jeblair ti's from the begging20:07
ttxjeblair: tl;dr: is that A or B?20:08
boris-42jeblair functional testing != benchmarking20:08
jeblairttx: B20:08
ttxjeblair: thx :)20:08
boris-42russellb jeblair as well I really don't see any issues with integration in gates rally..20:08
russellbis anyone on A ?20:08
ttxany TC member wanting to defend the A option at this point ?20:08
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ttxwhere is jaypipes when we need someone to play devil's advocate20:09
boris-42ttx jaypipes is against20:09
boris-42ttx I mean B20:09
sdagueI'm on B, I think that hopefully clear from stuff I put on the list20:09
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boris-42ttx I can be proxy20:09
dhellmannI would have liked to see an operators tools group started, but I'm not sure the current rally team is the right team to do it.20:09
ttxboris-42: he could still play devil's advocate and defend A for us20:09
boris-42ttx nope he won't do that believe me20:09
markmcclaindhellmann: +120:10
ttxdhellmann: frankly at this point not imposing structure sounds like a better outcome20:10
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ttxmaybe i'm infected by Jay20:10
zanebis there agreement that any new program would be to host performance benchmarking *as a service* (to operators)?20:10
markmcclainI know at the operators meetup there was a working session to discuss ops tooling20:10
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dhellmannttx: yeah, I don't agree with Jay on the need to drop programs, but the collaboration issues we've had with this team make me hesitate at this point.20:10
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ttxmarkmcclain: nothing prevents to work on good tooling20:11
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boris-42dhellmann really guys we Rally team tried to do best..20:11
dhellmannzaneb: I don't know what means20:11
boris-42dhellmann we even integrated tempest in rally..20:11
ttxin fact I expect Rally to be more successful as it stands than into some program where we would force it to change20:11
markmcclainttx: right just saying I think there is a need for ops tooling not sure that this is vehicle for it at this time20:11
sdagueright, we need to stop thinking only good tools come out of programs. Good tools come out of people writing good tools.20:11
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markmcclainsdague: +120:11
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dhellmannboris-42: the problem has been with compromising with existing teams to fit in to a new niche20:11
zanebdhellmann: i.e. it's something that runs in the cloud, not something you run in the gates or from your laptop20:12
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dhellmannzaneb: ok, I don't think that's what rally does20:12
boris-42dhellmann zaneb  rally does both..20:12
zanebdhellmann: I think that's boris-42's vision for it though20:12
boris-42dhellmann zaneb  it's easy to use + it's easy to integrated20:12
boris-42so you can easily repeat locally experiment20:13
boris-42that was actually idea20:13
boris-42Ops guys can share their experiments20:13
dhellmannboris-42: "I've wrapped up your tool and reproduced parts of it" is not the same thing as integration20:13
boris-42and a lot of them can be adopted for gates20:13
boris-42and fixed20:13
boris-42dhellmann hm okay then I don't know what is integration...20:14
zanebit seems to me that now is the time to implement the architectural changes that sdague suggested. Once that is done it would be time to decide if we need a program to make that "as a Service"20:14
dhellmannboris-42: it is as much about the community as about the code. the rally and qa teams have been unable to work out any way to work together so far.20:14
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boris-42dhellmann is this my fault?20:14
boris-42dhellmann I tried since the begging20:15
boris-42dhellmann they said my approach is bad..20:15
boris-42dhellmann and so what know?20:15
dhellmannwe really don't have time to argue about rally's architecture again in this meeting20:15
boris-42dhellmann it's not about architecture20:15
boris-42dhellmann it's about not allowing different approach20:15
markmcagree, we don't have time to resolve this here now20:15
boris-42dhellmann which is NO competion => no quality20:15
markmcthere's clearly overlap that needs to be resolved20:16
markmcAFAICT the tempest team have been quite patient and tenacious about trying to figure out a plan20:16
markmcit doesn't appear to be happening20:16
boris-42markmc I have a full roadmap20:16
boris-42markmc about collabartion20:16
markmcwith that resolved, I could imagine revisiting the rally program question20:16
boris-42markmc nobody replied20:16
russellbboris-42: but there's clearly no consensus on it20:16
ttxif no TC member wants to get behind the A option at this point, there is little point in continuing that discussion.20:16
boris-42okay guys sorry for taking too much of your time20:17
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ttx#topic Other governance changes20:18
*** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)"20:18
ttxFinal decision on Manila:20:18
markmcboris-42, I think many of us are genuinely disappointed because we think what you're doing actually has a lot of promise20:18
dhellmannmarkmc: +120:18
markmcboris-42, so, no waste of our time IMO20:18
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x287cc50>20:18
boris-42markmc dhellmann someday I hope It will be clear why we chose this hard way..20:19
* ttx waits for the discussion to complete20:19
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boris-42but seems it's not today =(20:19
russellbagree with that sentiment, i think it still does have promise20:19
boris-42russellb could you at least +1 infra job20:19
russellbjust would like to see some ongoing effort on integration and collaboration20:19
boris-42russellb and at least try to use it?)20:19
ttxand not being a program doesn't prevent it from being used or succeeding20:20
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russellbttx: absolutely20:20
dhellmannI certainly hope not. It sounds like there are already quite a few adopters.20:20
boris-42ttx you should say that to mailing list=) cause people is afraid to use stuff from stackfroge=)20:20
russellbboris-42: i just want to see the integration with the nova repo sorted out, that seems pretty reasonable to me20:20
russellbenabling the job right now would do nothing20:20
boris-42russellb so you can keep all benchmarks in nova repo20:20
russellbbut that's not really a topic for this meeting20:21
boris-42russellb if that makes sense for you20:21
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boris-42russellb yep sure20:21
ttxboris-42: we need to fix that (people afraid from using stackforge)20:21
* markmcclain wonders why more folks don't realize that they're already running many quality components from stackforge20:21
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boris-42ttx ya deff20:22
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boris-42markmc and not only from stackforge*20:22
ttxi'm not sure giving every good thing a stackforge an openstack program is the solution to that problem though20:22
ttxsome advocate the solution is actually the other way around20:22
rmkIs the thinking here that by effectively not supporting Rally, people will go and contribute to other OpenStack projects?  Because that's not realistic at all.20:22
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ttxkeeping some good components in stackforge to fight the "premature" reputation20:23
rmkWe run dozens of production clouds.  We're already using Rally on them.  I wouldn't even consider running Tempest on them for a second.20:23
zanebrmk: I agree that's not realistic, but I don't think that's the thinking20:23
rmkI can't understand the rationale at all here.20:23
rmkYou want Rally to go away, why?20:23
russellbnobody said that.20:24
rmkThere's no equivilent.  Tempest is not.20:24
zanebnobody wants it to go away20:24
dhellmannrmk: we do not want rally to go away. we want rally to agree to work together with other programs20:24
russellbwe said we'd like to see a better collaboration plan20:24
ttxno, we just don't consider Rally to be essential to our mission at this point20:24
russellbnot just a plan, but successful progress that everyone is happy with20:24
markmcrmk, but ... that is great input20:24
russellbi'm not speaking for everyone, but that was part of it anyway20:25
rmkHow is everyone else validating their production environments?20:25
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boris-42russellb ttx  hm but there is areldy collaboration btw20:25
boris-42russellb ttx  with other programs..20:25
rmkI'd really like to know which current OpenStack tool is being used for this.  Or maybe I am doing it wrong.20:25
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russellbrmk: i don't think not making it an official program precludes you from continuing?20:25
markmcrmk, unlikely the TC has great insight into that, but we'd love to hear from more operators about the tools they use20:25
rmkAlright, I'll take this offline into emai.20:25
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russellbcurious what you perceive the importance of the program is?20:25
ttxrmk: why are people thinking only openstack tools should be used to validate openstack tools20:26
boris-42russellb I have actually20:26
boris-42russellb e.g. I would like to know my scope20:26
boris-42russellb and to have tempest scope20:26
boris-42russellb so rally will work in own scope and me in my20:26
rmkttx: OpenStack is complex and specialized enough to need its own tool for validating/benchmarking itself.20:26
boris-42russellb and everything just fine..20:26
boris-42russellb and we can help each other20:26
boris-42russellb whcihs is trying to do rally team already20:27
rmkAnyway, I'm told I am derailing the meeting which I didn't intend to do.  So I can take this to another more appropriate forum.20:27
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ttxrmk: under the current definition, programs are to cover the integrated release, or some efforts that are considered essential to the production of the integrated release. Everything else can be in our ecosystem20:27
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ttxThe current ruling just says that at this point, Rally is not targeted for the release itself, and is not essential to the PRODUCTION of that release20:28
ttxIf we change that definition to include stuff that is useful to SUPPOT that release in production envs, then it would be an easier sell20:28
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rmkttx: I would argue that having a toolset for validating what you've deployed, dedicated to that job, is vital for production.  Otherwise, you're inevitibly going to have dozens of different home-grown tools built to validate OpenStack environments.20:29
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boris-42ttx russellb  markmc btw what about asking more ops what they think?20:29
vishyrmk: what about rally makes it better for “validation” then the tempest tests?20:29
rmkvishy: Tempest doesn't sufficiently clean up after itself.  It barely does any cleanup.20:30
markmcrmk, sharing your insights on why tempest doesn't suffice would be great - genuinely useful input from operators20:30
dhellmannand it was easier to build a completely new tool than to work with the tempest team to fix that?20:30
markmcrmk, likely the approach the TC and QA program would advocate is that those issues with tempest should be addressed20:30
markmcdhellmann, right :)20:30
boris-42dhellmann it's not the only reason...20:30
vishyrmk: considering the tempest tests are the requirement for the trademark it seems like it should be fixed20:30
boris-42dhellmann there is so much and first of them is that they are using unit test framework20:31
rmkIf I were to run Tempest in our environments, I'd end up with stranded resources all over the place.  Tenants which aren't cleaned up, networks which are associated to deleted projects, etc.20:31
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jeblairyeah, so let's fix those20:31
rmkI see Tempest as more of a functional testing framework for development than I do a production validation and benchmarking suite.20:31
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jeblairlet's also fix the openstack bugs that cause those20:31
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jeblairbecause i see those things all the time in production :)20:31
markmcclainjeblair: +120:31
rmkjeblair: Some of the openstack bugs in that case are architectural issues.  Major ones.20:31
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rmkI obviously agree with fixing those.20:31
jeblairrmk: tell me about it :)20:32
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ttxOK, I think we need to move on. There is still no TC member ready to support option A, so we are far from being able to reconsider our position20:32
rmkThanks for hearing me.  I'll provide more thoughts on this outside the meeting.20:32
ttxrmk: thanks for voicing your concerns20:32
ttx#topic Other governance changes20:33
*** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)"20:33
ttxSo, Manila...20:33
ttx* Propose Shared File Systems program: (https://review.openstack.org/111149)20:33
ttx* Propose Manila for incubation (https://review.openstack.org/113583)20:33
ttxBoth now have majority approvals, so unless someone complains I'll approve them now20:33
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bswartzthanks all for the +1 votes20:34
russellbbswartz: thanks, just keep in mind the concerns we discussed last time, we'll be checking in on those for sure.  keep up the good work :)20:34
ttxbswartz: congrats!20:34
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markmcclainttx: should we assign TC mentor now or later?20:35
ttxmarkmcclain: we'll assign one on the Kilo TC20:35
markmcclainttx: makes sense20:35
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ttx* Renewing ATC exceptions for Horizon (https://review.openstack.org/115697)20:35
ttxThis is renewing extra-atc status for Horizon UX contributors20:35
jeblairwho are awesome20:35
ttxIt also has 7 YES, so unless someone screams now, I'll approve too20:36
markmc+1 added20:36
markmcsurprising we aren't seeing more of these20:36
* anteaya notes status update20:36
markmclike, dozens more20:36
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anteayait is up to the ptl to offer the extra-atcs for consideration20:36
dhellmannmarkmc: is there anyone specific you have in mind?20:37
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russellbmarkmc: indeed, might be worth reminding everyone about20:37
annegentleyeah how are people under the radar? can we tune our radar further?20:37
jeblairyeah, i'm not above nudging people in case there's just been an oversight20:37
russellbannegentle: maybe something for the blog update (reminding that special ATC consideration is available)20:37
markmcyeah, I just thought of one in particular20:37
ttxbut but but, it's written in the charter!20:37
annegentle(hm, tune, radar, not sure about that)20:37
markmcwill follow up, don't want to mention here20:37
ttxeveryone reads it, right20:37
annegentlerussellb: good one20:37
jeblairi have it under my pillow20:37
dhellmannttx: every night before I go to bed20:37
annegentleas a sleeping aid20:37
ttxannegentle: remember you're up for the TC activity next blogpost20:38
annegentleayup, got a draft started20:38
anteayattx you and I read the charter, and folks posting to the ml20:38
annegentlepublish this week I guess?20:38
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annegentlesince we were awaiting manila?20:38
ttxannegentle: sure, I think we have enough material now20:38
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ttx* Add repository glance.store to glance (https://review.openstack.org/107585)20:38
ttxThis one is still blocked by markwash's standing -120:38
ttxhmm, no longer20:39
ttxso I guess it's good to go too20:39
markmcwow, you're like over 12 hours out of date there ttx20:39
vishybtw I have an extra item for open discussion if there is time20:39
* markmc teases20:39
ttxI blame markwash's skipping the 1:1 sync today20:40
jeblairnice redirect20:40
russellbhe did what?!20:40
dhellmannnice delegation of responsibility there :-)20:40
* russellb changes to -120:40
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ttxjeblair: I'm 303.20:40
ttx#topic Open discussion20:41
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:41
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ttxThere will be a TC/Defcore call on Thursday at 1800 UTC20:41
zanebbring popcorn20:41
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ttxwhere TC members are invited to give their individual feedback to the proposed designated sections20:41
ttxzehicle: a short word on that?20:42
russellbzehicle_at_dell is who announced himself as present earlier, but that zehicle just dropped20:42
markmcvishy, your item?20:42
ttxThe "Requirements for new projects added to existing programs" thread resulted in a governance review being posted, so we can continue the discussion there:20:43
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ttxSince we have some time left, we could discuss the issues with programs, unless someone has something more urgent20:43
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markmcclainttx: also have this which is related for new Neutron repo: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/117000/20:43
markmc<vishy> btw I have an extra item for open discussion if there is time20:44
* markmc intrigued :)20:44
ttxok, let's do that first, since you snatched a round number20:44
* russellb stares at vishy 20:44
jeblairmarkmcclain: i've been reading https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Incubator and i have some concerns20:44
vishyso this is a general topic I would like the tc to think about20:44
jeblairmarkmcclain: maybe it should be a thread or meeting topic?20:44
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markmcclainjeblair: sure would also be happy to catch up with you offline too20:45
ttxmarkmcclain: will be discussed next meeting, not aged enough20:45
vishyi will just introduce it here20:45
markmcclainttx: right just wanted to make everyone aware it was there20:45
vishyand maybe we can have a discussion about it in a futrue meeting20:45
vishyso the above link shows the aws services20:45
ttxsome of them, at least20:45
vishyin general I think openstack is directing too much energy in the wrong direction20:46
vishytrying to make Everything-As-A-Service20:46
zehiclettx, sorry, back again20:46
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vishyIMO aaS model only works at large scale i.e. production clouds20:46
vishyand I think a lot of our time would be better spent on focusing on how to build solid reusable components20:46
zanebvishy: I think you're indulging in a conservation-of-energy fallacy20:47
vishywhich is much more appropriate for small private clouds20:47
zehicle#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DefCoreLighthouse.620:47
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vishyzaneb: our incentive structure is totally built on new aaS offerings20:47
annegentlezaneb: I believe in abundance but I think vishy is pointing out the public/private motivations20:47
vishyin other words the only way to get recognition in our community is to build an as a service20:47
vishywhich has lead to a number of problems which we have discussed recently20:48
vishy1) Marconi20:48
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vishy2) Rally20:48
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anteayavishy has a point after listening to jogo's assessment of mesos20:48
zanebvishy: I tend to agree, but I don't agree that all those people would e.g. go fix Neutron bugs if we had different incentives20:48
jogoI think sdague summed it up well in: https://dague.net/2014/08/26/openstack-as-layers/20:48
ttxvishy: so what's the right direction?20:48
vishywe don’t have a decent way for people to collaborate on components20:48
sdaguevishy: so, interestingly enough, I wrote up something maybe similar this morning https://dague.net/2014/08/26/openstack-as-layers/20:48
vishyzaneb, ttx: that is true20:48
markmcvishy, the only way to get recognition is to start a new program? that's an odd statement20:48
sdagueoh, jogo beat me to it20:48
jogosdague: sorry for stealing your thunder20:49
vishybut if we had a way for people to build a queuing component instead of a service20:49
vishymaybe it would be more valuable20:49
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russellbi'm honestly not sure what you're saying20:49
markmcyeah, what's a queueing component?20:49
ttxvishy: i'm not sure I get the distinction between component and service20:49
russellbis it just "we have too many projects" ?20:49
vishymy layers are a little different20:49
markmcdoes it have a REST API?20:50
vishybut yeah that is roughly the idea20:50
vishymarkmc: that is the point it does not20:50
vishyrest api is for a service20:50
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vishyi.e. people could collaborate on heat templates for example20:50
zanebvishy: so these components... you'd spin them up on Nova servers, right?20:50
vishyi worry that people are essentially going to jump ship and go to the docker ecosystem for this part of the stack20:51
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vishyzaneb: potentially20:51
markmcso, heat templates for provisioning VMs to run RabbitMQ is the preferable solution to those building applications in private clouds?20:51
markmc(honestly trying to summarize)20:51
vishymarkmc: I believe so20:51
markmcvishy, on what basis?20:51
markmcvishy, that we can't build a good enough service?20:51
vishymarkmc: the point is that every private cloud company can’t have a person or people to manage an as a service offering20:51
vishymarkmc: not if we are building 100s of them20:52
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zanebvishy: as I mentioned on the list, that scales at very coarse granularity20:52
markmcah, ok - so insufficient return on the investment in operating that service20:52
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vishymarkmc: this is just food for thought at the moment20:52
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markmcversus, it's fine to have each application operator essentially operate their own queue20:52
* ttx likes the markmc direct translation20:52
vishyi don’t really have answers but it occurs to me that we are all racing to match amazon’s services20:52
markmcvishy, sure, I'm just trying to tease it out20:52
vishywhen that may not be the best option20:52
zanebOpenStack is not just for private clouds though. It's for private *and* public clouds, and moving workloads between them20:52
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jeblairyes, but i'm not sure it's okay to have each public operator _create_ their own queue20:53
russellbnoting that a VM running rabbit is far from the same thing as a simple queue rest API20:53
vishymarkmc: it boils down to who is responsible for mgmt of the component/service20:53
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vishyi would argue in a small deploy it is the application that is using the queue that needs to manage it20:53
vishyi.e. their team20:53
markmcvishy, if there's lots of apps needing queueing, hard to see that its not worthwhile operating infrastructure for them all to share20:53
ttxI still think some key IaaS+ services (like DBaaS) still make sense, but could belong to Sean's layer 4 alright20:53
vishybecause Joe Company can’t have a queue service management team20:53
russellbwe obviously target large deploys too, though20:54
jogovishy: I take offense to that :)20:54
ttxvishy: so you're advocating both for a smaller core and diversification at the workload level20:54
vishyrussellb: yes I think the services should still be done20:54
vishyfor hp rax etc.20:54
russellbvishy: ah, ok20:54
jeblairvishy: so is within the openstack project an appropriate place for public operators to collaborate on those services?20:54
vishybut on the other hand if they only apply to a subset of the community I’m not sure that they need to be “official” openstack20:54
ttxvishy: but should clearly be out of the ahem. core?20:55
annegentleor integrated openstack?20:55
vishythey could be openstack-adden-services20:55
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russellbof course, the reason we brought them in is because wanted to encourage collaboration20:55
zanebfor the record, I want queues so that *openstack* services (like Heat) can depend on them to interact with the user20:55
russellband an official program/project seemed like the way to do that20:55
russellbi'd not want to lose sight of that goal20:55
jeblairvishy: we didn't really get them to collaborate until they became official in some manner.  i think retaining that feature is useful20:56
russellbjeblair: ++20:56
vishysure sure20:56
jeblairthough i'm otherwise very inclined to agree that running a queue service is not something every (private) cloud needs to do :)20:56
vishyI don’t think a wholehearted change is required20:56
vishybut encouraging collaboration around components and not doing everything as a service could be valuable too20:56
sdaguejeblair: so I think that was true a couple years ago. But I actually think we're seeing tons of collaboration now outside of just "official" openstack projects20:56
vishyso mostly I just wanted to bring it up for people to think about20:57
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ttxvishy: I'm with you that it shoul dbe limited to building blocks, like databases or queues. It took me a while to consider MapReduce (Sahara) a basic building block tbh20:57
ttxI think we were crossing the line there20:58
anteayaI think it is good to have the conversation20:58
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jogoI see this as the: 'big tent/big ecosystem' debate20:58
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zanebsdague: IMO incubation is the biggest lever we have to convince people to develop stuff as open source rather than proprietary20:58
ttxjogo: with a vishy twist on it though20:58
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ttxIt's definitely our next big debate20:58
sdaguezaneb: honestly, I think the playing field has changed20:58
jeblairttx: it was also our last big debate20:58
sdaguewith docker, cloudfoundry, mesos, kubernertes20:59
anteayazaneb: sometimes forcing people to develop open source can create its own dragons20:59
ttxjeblair: we did have a few debates about other things, didn't we?20:59
markmcclainzaneb: that's a bit concerning if we have to classify something for incubation to get folks to develop in the open20:59
ttxooook, I think we can continue that discussion on other forums21:00
annegentlezaneb: but that statement just sounds like we're trying to get them to use our system which is as lock-in-ish as proprietary21:00
ttxbut yes, there is a debate about the size of the tent21:00
ttxour time for today is up21:00
ttxthanks vishy!21:00
david-lylebut they're using OpenStack too, for a commitment of support21:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:00
david-lyleongoing development21:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 26 21:00:48 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-08-26-20.01.html21:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-08-26-20.01.txt21:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-08-26-20.01.log.html21:00
ttxdhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, eglynn, markwash, jgriffith, mikal, zaneb, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov: around ?21:01
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ttx#startmeeting project21:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 26 21:01:52 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)"21:01
ttxOur agenda for today:21:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'project'21:01
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting21:02
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ttx#topic News from the 1:1 sync points21:02
*** openstack changes topic to "News from the 1:1 sync points (Meeting topic: project)"21:02
ttxHere is the log:21:02
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ttx#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2014/ptl_sync.2014-08-26-08.14.html21:02
ttxOnly Glance was MIA today21:03
ttxIn summary, juno-3 and feature freeze will hit most projects next week21:03
ttxThat means we have only 9 days to merge the remaining targeted features21:03
* mestery notes hit is not necessarily a figurative term21:03
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ttxWe are at about 15% of targets landed right now, and 80% of our juno-3 time is consumed21:04
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ttxso let's just say we raelly need to switch gears21:04
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ttx(to reach icehouse activity level we need to reach 80% of those targets :)21:04
* dolphm makes a sacrifice to the transient failure gods21:04
ttx(by some weird simplistic metric)21:04
* mestery tosses one on after dolphm.21:05
ttxWe identified a few blocked things, which we'll discuss in this meeting21:05
dolphmttx: keystone is unblocked!21:05
ttxdolphm: now get that feature merged :)21:06
ttx#topic Other program news21:06
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ttxAny other program with a quick announcement ?21:06
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mtreinishttx: well last week I forgot to announce that salv-orlando got the neutron parallel full gate enabled everywhere21:06
mtreinishwhich is awesome21:06
mesterymtreinish: ++, awesome work by salv-orlando!21:06
mesteryAnd the QA team21:07
mesteryNeutron is proceeding with the incubator proposal for new features, we should have it up and running this week yet.21:07
jogomestery: where will neutron advanced services (FWaaS etc.) fit in to that21:07
mestery#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Incubator21:08
mesteryjogo: That's still under discussion, it's been talked about possibly moving them there, but not right away at least.21:08
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mesteryjogo: So, stay tuned :)21:08
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ttxok, anything else ?21:09
ttxjeblair: how is the gate holding so far ?21:09
ttxjeblair: despite all my efforts to stage the review activity, it still looks like we'll have a heavy week ahead21:09
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jogomestery: thanks21:11
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jogottx: we are experiencing lots of unit test issues: http://jogo.github.io/gate/ (at the bottom)21:11
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ttxunit tests ? thats a new one21:12
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jogottx: yeah sadly it is21:12
ttxany reason for the surge?21:13
zanebthe magic random hash, one assumes21:13
mtreinishttx: I think it was a new testtools version breaking glance21:13
dolphmjogo: is that keystone or trove? colors are nearly the same21:13
jogothose things happened a few days ago so not sure21:13
sdaguethe freshness checks were also turned off21:14
jogowell here arethe unclassified gate failures: http://status.openstack.org/elastic-recheck/data/uncategorized.html21:14
sdagueI think the 24hr freshness check probably should come back21:14
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dolphmsdague: ++ why was that removed?21:14
SergeyLukjanovfor sahara there was an issue w/ new jsonschema release (in unit tests)21:14
ttxsdague: hmm, so avoidable unit test fails are back too21:14
SlickNikttx: the upgrade to tox caused the hashseed value to be set randomly, and that was causing the python-26 tests to fail in trove.21:14
jogosdague: yeah that may be related. can we just bring back unit test freshness?21:14
ttxI've seena number of changes pushed to bypass that though... aren't they merged by now?21:15
sdaguejogo: or drop unit tests from the gate :)21:15
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sdaguewhich I wanted to do 8 months ago21:15
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SlickNikttx: we've got a fix in place to work around that, but are also looking at fixing the problematic tests as a high pri.21:15
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sdaguedolphm: so the theory was that people shouldn't have massively flakey unit tests.... because they are unit tests, so it shouldn't be an issue21:15
SlickNikttx: yes merged now.21:15
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dolphmsdague: theory!21:16
ttxsdague, jogo: ok, let me know if there is anything I can do, or anything this particular meeting could help with21:16
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jogottx: people can classify there unclassified failures21:16
jogottx: so we have better insight into what is failing and why21:17
ttx#action everyone help classify gate fails (http://status.openstack.org/elastic-recheck/data/uncategorized.html)21:17
ttxjogo: I'll try to give it some of my remaining cycles tomorrow21:17
jogoif anyone needs help I will be in -qa21:17
ttxIf we enter the week of death with a gate that has a cold, we won't be in good shape.21:17
dolphmjogo: how do people go about classifying something?21:17
jogosdague: I think bringing back the 24 hour check (or maybe just a 72 hour or something) is a good idea right now21:18
anteayaan email to the mailing list often helps with classifying failures21:18
jogodolphm: elastic-recheck fingerprints21:18
anteayawho wants to send the email?21:18
sdaguejogo: the 24hr check before entering the gate is the one that protects the gate21:18
sdaguethe 72 hr check probably just eats nodes21:18
jeblairsorry, was afk21:19
jeblairsdague: is there evidence the 24h check would help?21:19
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sdaguejeblair: rigorous? no. I've just seen a few wrecking balls when I've looked on stuff that can't pass the gate21:19
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sdaguethose add a lot of time on the gate side21:19
jeblairsdague: previously when we've looked, we have not found gate failures that would have been prevented by the 24h check21:19
jogottx: 'gate' health: http://status.openstack.org/elastic-recheck/index.html21:19
jeblairsdague: because we still have the requirement for a +1 before entering the gate21:20
dolphmjogo: does 'recheck bug ###' still count towards classifications?21:20
jogottx: if anyone knows javascript I have a few ideas for that page to make it more useful21:20
sdaguejeblair: the thing I called people out on the list about for glance would have21:20
jogodolphm: no, you have to add a fingerprint21:20
sdaguejeblair: so I think we're probably just looking at different times21:20
jeblairsdague: yes, but they have agreed to a procedural change for that21:20
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ttxok, looks like we could use a quick email reminding/teaching people how to classify21:20
sdaguejeblair: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-August/043810.html21:21
jogottx: I can send one out21:21
dolphmjogo: is there any point to anything beyond just 'recheck' anymore?21:21
jogodolphm: yes, we don't collect the data on a regular basis but yes.21:21
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sdaguejeblair: yeh, I think people mostly don't realize that's what they are doing. Anyway, if you don't feel it would help, I'm not going to push it21:22
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jogoadding a bug number shows you know what the issue is, and aren't just ignoring things21:22
jogodolphm: you can now say any reason after the word recehck21:22
dolphmjogo: good to know21:23
jogolike 'recheck -- I have a hunch something else just broke this'21:23
jeblairsdague: the thing that would convince me is a change that passed > 24 hours ago but reliably failed < 24 hours ago getting into the gate21:23
sdagueright, that glance stuff was that21:23
jogobut bare rechecks send the social message that you don't know why it failed and don't care21:23
jeblairsdague: i realize that the tox switch could do that ^ and likely happened with glance21:23
jeblairsdague: but we don't globally break tox every day :)21:23
ttxOK, let's move on... but yes, any extra effort to get the gate back in shape in this crucial week is very appreciated21:23
ttx#topic juno-3 blueprints blocked on cross-project issues21:24
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sdaguejeblair: sure21:24
ttxI think the only one we ahve left at this point is:21:24
ttx* ceilometer/grenade-resource-survivability21:24
ttxBlocked pending discussion between jogo and Chris Dent21:24
gordci've synced with jogo about this before the meeting.21:24
ttxah, great21:24
gordcpatch can be tracked here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102354/21:24
ttxgordc: so it's unblocked now ?21:25
gordcbasically we just need feedback for the patch since cdent (dev working on implementation) is sort of unsure how to proceed21:25
gordcttx: somewhat21:25
gordcjogo. i think cdent posted a question to your reply in gerrit21:25
ttxgordc: note that if this is just touching tests, it's fine to land post-FF21:26
jogogordc: I'l take a look21:26
gordcttx: good to know.21:26
gordcit should just be touching tests... but i'm not sure how much the scope will change.21:26
ttxif it can be completed for j3, all the better, but if not, it can automatically be targeted to RC121:27
ttx#topic Packaging for functional tests (zaneb)21:27
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gordci'm not that familiar with grenade/javelin stuff myself so i'm pretty useless there... if anyone has knowledge it'd be cool if we got your opinion. :)21:27
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-August/044072.html21:27
ttxzaneb: around?21:27
ttxFloor is yours21:27
zanebwas pasting the #link, but you beat me to it ;)21:27
jogogordc: responded21:27
zanebstevebaker: o/21:27
gordcjogo: awesome. much appreciated21:28
zanebso, basically it's all in that email21:28
jogosdague: it would be good to get your thoughts on it too https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102354/21:28
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stevebakerzaneb: \o21:28
zanebbut we're looking for a consensus on how the new in-project functional tests should be packaged21:28
sdaguezaneb: so I think the disconnect is around the idea that these are tempest plugins21:28
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sdaguebecause that's really not what was intended21:28
zanebinput from folks who already have in-tree functional tests on that thread would be helpful21:28
sdagueI don't see tempest having anything to do with these tests21:29
zanebsdague: interesting21:29
stevebakerI just replied that thread. tl;dr +1 on zaneb's suggestion of <project>-integrationtests package21:29
sdaguethis is project functional testing21:29
zanebthe tests we want to add in Heat are basically the scenario tests we haven't been able to land in Tempest21:29
zanebas far as I understand it21:29
stevebakersdague: agreed, but because of the nature of heat our functional tests are really integration tests. All we do is interact with other services21:30
zanebso it may be that this is a different thing to what everyone else is doing21:30
sdagueright, it might be21:30
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zanebwhich I guess is basically the question I am asking in that thread21:30
dhellmannyeah, I expect the functional tests for oslo.messaging to not rely on other services, for example21:30
mesteryThese sound different than the neutron functional tests21:30
mesteryThe neutron ones functionally test out bits that neutron relies on, but no other openstack services are required to my knowledge.21:31
mesterye.g. ip commands, ovs-vsctl, etc.21:31
stevebakerI think the swift functional tests run against a full running swift (needs keystone?) but swift would be self-contained so they could still be considered functional21:32
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stevebakernotmyname: ^?21:32
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zanebso if we're the only project with this kind of tests, I'm happy to do our own thing21:34
stevebakersdague: the heat functional tests are independent of tempest, they have forklifted some of the tempest scenario scaffolding just to get started21:34
zanebI don't want to do our own thing just for the sake of it though21:34
jeblairif the other projects are actually running, then it's an integration test21:35
sdaguezaneb / stevebaker - I think the challenge is heat's a weird starting point for defining this because it is so far up the stack21:35
zanebsdague: agreed21:35
jeblairand i think all of the thinking about how functional tests can be optimized doesn't apply21:35
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sdaguezaneb: so I'd say given that, you guys should run with whatever works for you21:36
stevebakerand I do see check-heat-dsvm-functional becoming a voting job on nova, keystone, neutron so that it doesn't break all the time21:36
ttxzaneb: looks like you reached a conclusion there21:37
sdaguestevebaker: so the point is to *not* do that21:37
zanebcool, thanks everyone21:37
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sdagueif you depend on certain behavior in those projects, that should be locked down inside that project21:37
sdaguenot by lots of more cross project tests21:37
sdaguebecause that's the scaling issue we are trying to address21:37
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stevebakersdague: we may need to wait and see how often it breaks. I guess regressions require a new tempest test to prevent a repeat21:38
jeblairsdague: this is the "nova has a unit test that it doesn't break heat's use of some api" idea21:38
sdaguejeblair: exactly21:38
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sdagueif you depend on a behavior in a component, and they keep breaking it, put some tests in the project to stop that :)21:39
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jeblairsdague: so should we run the heat functional tests with everything running for real, but only gate heat on it, and when it breaks, fix it and add a unit test in the other project?21:39
zanebI think it's unlikely that Nova &c. will break us that often21:39
sdaguejeblair: that's an option21:40
stevebakerdoes check-heat-dsvm-functional need to be renamed -integration? (please no ;)21:40
sdaguestevebaker: I vote no :)21:40
zanebjeblair: that's what I'm thinking21:40
jeblairsdague: or should heat run with nova, etc mocked out?21:40
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jeblairsdague: (trying to understand what the other options would be)21:40
sdaguejeblair: so those are the 2 options21:40
stevebakerjeblair: we need to test heat<-> agent interaction, so nova needs to keep it real21:41
sdagueI'm not sure if we're going to know which is more effective in catching and resolving issues until we try21:41
zanebI actually think we need both21:41
stevebakerjeblair: fake virt driver will be useful for scale tests though21:41
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zanebI would like to test with e.g. induced failures21:42
zanebbut we also need to spin VMs to check we can talk to the agents on them21:42
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sdaguethis is something I'm going to be experimenting with nova over the next couple of weeks21:42
sdaguezaneb: so maybe you've got a couple of types here21:42
zanebyes, some functional and some integration21:42
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stevebakerI tried killing nova-api to test heat resilience, but nova went into an unrecoverable state ;)21:43
sdaguebecause it's not clear to me if having a fake glance or a real glance (which honestly basically never fails) is better21:43
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sdaguestevebaker: interesting, because I kill and restart nova-api all the time in devstack, and it's fine :)21:44
zanebwe'll need the real glance artifact repo when it comes out21:44
jeblairsdague: yeah, and i think we've been seeing both patterns as people start working on func test jobs21:44
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sdaguejeblair: agreed21:44
stevebakersdague: during server boot? I think I ended up with an undeletable server21:44
jeblairsdague: i think neutron may run nothing else, swift runs everything (but probably uses nothing else)21:44
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sdaguestevebaker: there are tons of ways to get undeletable servers :)21:45
sdaguestevebaker: anyway, yes, functional jobs should make fault injection something that's more managable to start doing21:45
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zanebok, so we should set up both functional tests that mock out the services and integration tests that run against all of devstack21:46
sdagueso I'd say right now feel free to carve you own path, and lets work to converge on working patterns in the middle of kilo when we have more experience21:46
sdaguebecause I'm really hesitant to say "do it thusly" until we have more experience21:47
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zanebcool, many thanks sdague & jeblair for your input21:48
ttx#topic Open discussion21:48
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ttxanything anyone ?21:48
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ttxnew feedback on the czar^Wliaison proposal ?21:49
jeblairttx: to add a data point on the earlier gate status topic: the waiting jobs queue touched 0 last night; so we're working through 1 days worth of changes in approx 1 day21:49
ttxI'll likely propose that delegation (if deemed necessary) is indicated on the main project wiki page21:49
ttxthat's easier than a governance patch21:50
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ttxjeblair: ok, not too bad. Expect load to grow though. I expect a peak on Thursday and Tuesday21:50
ttxthat's using my meteorological model21:50
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zanebttx: +1 for wiki, but maybe they should be all in one big matrix?21:51
zanebrather than on individual program pages21:51
ttxzaneb: hmm, yes, that could prove easier21:51
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jeblairalso, if anyone has a public cloud laying around, i'll be happy to use it  :)21:51
* ttx looks in his closet21:51
jeblairping me and i'll send you info21:51
zanebttx: we'll soon see who has empty columns that way ;)21:51
ttxjeblair: i'm renewing my thinkpad, if you want my old one21:52
ttxjeblair: it has a SSD, as fast as on day 121:52
jeblairttx: i think i might want it just for parts :)21:52
ttxdon't scare my laptop, the new one is still on some boat from Hong-Kong21:52
ttxif I'm to trust UPS21:53
jeblair"if" indeed :)21:53
ttxmor probably in some labs in west virginia21:53
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ttxok, unless someone has something to add...21:53
ttxlet's close this now21:54
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:54
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 26 21:54:33 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:54
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-08-26-21.01.html21:54
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-08-26-21.01.txt21:54
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-08-26-21.01.log.html21:54
ttxthanks everyone!21:54
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SlickNikThanks ttx!21:55
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