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| yamahata | hi | 05:00 |
|---|---|---|
| vishwanathj | hello | 05:01 |
| yamahata | #startmeeting servicevm-device-manager | 05:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 26 05:01:24 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is yamahata. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 05:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 05:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'servicevm_device_manager' | 05:01 |
| yamahata | #topic Announcement | 05:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcement (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:01 | |
| yamahata | today bob and karthik are absent. | 05:01 |
| yamahata | I added a section of "absent" of the meeting wiki | 05:02 |
| yamahata | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ServiceVM#Apologies_for_Absence | 05:02 |
| yamahata | I uploaded WIP patch for l3 routervm plugin | 05:03 |
| yamahata | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116773/ WIP: router vm l3 plugin/driver/agent | 05:03 |
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| yamahata | It addresses l3 plugin side. | 05:03 |
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| yamahata | Now I'm working on cfg/guest agent side | 05:03 |
| yamahata | That's all from me. | 05:04 |
| yamahata | anything else to announce? | 05:04 |
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| yamahata | vishwanathj: do you have any? | 05:05 |
| vishwanathj | nothing from me from announcement perspective, but I do have other questions later | 05:06 |
| yamahata | sure | 05:06 |
| yamahata | #topic code review | 05:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "code review (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:06 | |
| yamahata | We have two code review csr1kv and vyatta | 05:06 |
| yamahata | Bob seems updated their patch for csr1kv. | 05:06 |
| yamahata | vyatta vrouter patch seems to need some update. But we don't have karthik. Maybe vishwanathj has an opinion. | 05:07 |
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| yamahata | For vrouter patch, I'm going to upload refactoring patch. | 05:07 |
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| yamahata | #topic Open Discussion | 05:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:08 | |
| yamahata | nothing from me. | 05:08 |
| yamahata | vishwanathj: it's your turn. | 05:08 |
| vishwanathj | yamahata: I want to get to the point of being an active contributor... | 05:08 |
| songole | yamahata: could you provide links to code review? | 05:08 |
| vishwanathj | karthk has sent me links to the HowToContribute... | 05:09 |
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| yamahata | for easy one. | 05:09 |
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| yamahata | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102336/ Implementation of Brocade Vyatta vRouter L3 Plugin | 05:10 |
| vishwanathj | I have began to act on it. What documents do you suggest that I start going through to come upto speed on the ServiceVM project, maybe, I can follow up on this by sending you an email, if that;s oK with you | 05:10 |
| yamahata | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101002/ Adds router service plugin for CSR1kv | 05:10 |
| yamahata | vishwanathj: great. | 05:11 |
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| songole | thanks yamahata | 05:11 |
| vishwanathj | yamahata: thanks | 05:11 |
| yamahata | vishwanathj: the next neartearm goal is to have a working routervm with tacker servicevm service. | 05:12 |
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| vishwanathj | yamahata: I see | 05:12 |
| yamahata | For that sake, I'd like to make l3-agent run within routervm of linux. | 05:12 |
| vishwanathj | yamahata: I will sync up with karthik on that as well | 05:12 |
| yamahata | vishwanathj: Probably you'd like to make it work with vyatta routervm | 05:13 |
| vishwanathj | yamahata: I will add that as a task for myself | 05:13 |
| yamahata | with that, we can validate/check our design is good or not | 05:13 |
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| yamahata | Hopefully Bob will be on the same boat. We will see. | 05:14 |
| vishwanathj | yamahata: sounds good | 05:15 |
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| yamahata | any other topic? | 05:16 |
| vishwanathj | yamahata: nothing related to servicevm from my side | 05:16 |
| yamahata | Probably the ideal timeline is to have something working at the beginning of Kilo cycle. | 05:17 |
| yamahata | Then apply official incubation process. | 05:17 |
| vishwanathj | yamahata: when is the beginning of Kilo cycle? | 05:17 |
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| yamahata | I'm not aware official public schedule. | 05:19 |
| yamahata | But I guess around october | 05:19 |
| yamahata | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Juno_Release_Schedule juno schedule | 05:19 |
| vishwanathj | ok, thanks | 05:19 |
| yamahata | October 23 or 30 | 05:19 |
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| vishwanathj | yamahata: Thanks for the info | 05:20 |
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| yamahata | seems no more topics | 05:20 |
| yamahata | thanks every one. see you next week | 05:20 |
| vishwanathj | yamahata: thanks and bye | 05:21 |
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| yamahata | #endmeeting | 05:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 05:21 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 26 05:21:30 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 05:21 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-08-26-05.01.html | 05:21 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-08-26-05.01.txt | 05:21 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-08-26-05.01.log.html | 05:21 |
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| sc68cal | who's ready for some IPv6? | 14:00 |
| FJB | hi | 14:00 |
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| aveiga | hello | 14:01 |
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| amotoki | hey, though i need to leave during the meeting | 14:01 |
| sc68cal | #startmeeting neutron_ipv6 | 14:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 26 14:02:41 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sc68cal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_ipv6' | 14:02 |
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| xuhanp | hello | 14:04 |
| sc68cal | First off, I want to say that everyone has done a hell of a job this development cycle | 14:04 |
| sc68cal | If I am not mistaken, since xuhanp's review for dnsmasq got merged, we have completed all ipv6 blueprints for the Juno development cycle | 14:04 |
| sc68cal | plus, we got everything in before the mad rush for the deadline of J-3 | 14:05 |
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| aveiga | sc68cal: is that the stateful dhcp mode setting review? got a link? | 14:05 |
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| sc68cal | yeah let me dig it up | 14:05 |
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| aveiga | no rush, and congrats :) | 14:05 |
| sc68cal | https://review.openstack.org/106299 | 14:06 |
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| xuhanp | sc68cal, We will need this fix to make DHCPv6 security group work: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103811/ | 14:08 |
| xuhanp | but I think we are close to merge | 14:08 |
| sc68cal | perfect, that was going to be my next question - if there is anything we need to get core attention on | 14:09 |
| paraa | Hi, I have a question concerning the ipv6-radvd-ra spec. Wasnt there a problem with two default routes on the neutron router when there are RAs send from within the router namespace for the tenant network and also RAs from an upstream router for the external network? I only saw an abandoned patch from randy tuttle. | 14:09 |
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| sc68cal | paraa: do you have the link to the patch in gerrit? | 14:10 |
| dane_leblanc | paraa: This is the limitation that router ports can only have 1 IP address, either IPv4 or v6, not both? | 14:10 |
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| paraa | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/77471/ | 14:11 |
| FJB | That's not an IPv6 limitation. IPv6 can have multiple addresses on a port. | 14:11 |
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| aveiga | paraa FJB: I don't think we currently support multiple RAs from different nodes at this point | 14:12 |
| dane_leblanc | FJB: Right, there's a blueprint up for review that tries to address neutron concerns with multiple v6 addresses | 14:12 |
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| sc68cal | I don't think randy tuttle has been active lately, so paraa - if you can get a good bug report to help identify the issue we can probably get a fix | 14:12 |
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| sc68cal | I think right now that info is in people's heads - bug report would be good to help share info | 14:13 |
| sc68cal | or a BP - as dane_leblanc mentioned :) | 14:13 |
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| dane_leblanc | sc68cal: Check out the BP, it at least tries to address this | 14:13 |
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| sc68cal | dane_leblanc: yeah, as soon as they create the Kilo directory - get ready for your BP to be high priority for us | 14:14 |
| paraa | sc68cal the fix is already part of the patch. I will try to get a clean bug report together and grep the fix from the patch. | 14:14 |
| dane_leblanc | sc68cal: Yes, can't wait! Thanks | 14:15 |
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| sc68cal | paraa: awesome. That'll help give context - plus we can get bug fixes in quicker than bp's ;) | 14:15 |
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| sc68cal | speaking of. | 14:16 |
| sc68cal | https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bugs?field.tag=ipv6 | 14:16 |
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| sc68cal | So I want to discuss this bug | 14:17 |
| sc68cal | https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1358297 | 14:17 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1358297 in neutron "Port doesn't receive IP SLAAC in subnets with Router advertisements without dnsmasq" [Medium,Incomplete] | 14:17 |
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| sc68cal | We have some differences that have been showing up in the tables that we filed for each IPv6 spec | 14:17 |
| sc68cal | frankly, I want to remove these differences between the specs and just pick one, and copy and paste it into all three | 14:17 |
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| sc68cal | having different tables in each spec is leading to confusion | 14:18 |
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| sc68cal | anyone have an opinion on what I've said? | 14:22 |
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| dane_leblanc | I don't think there's disagreement, only a need for volunteer to do it? | 14:23 |
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| sc68cal | dane_leblanc: agreed | 14:25 |
| sc68cal | We also need to probably collect all the DocImpact bugs and start working on some documentation | 14:25 |
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| xuhanp | sc68cal, agree. I need to document the dnsmasq version check somewhere | 14:29 |
| aveiga | I think it might be good to have a page or section that explains configurations | 14:30 |
| aveiga | since that's been such a heated topic of debate | 14:30 |
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| sc68cal | agreed | 14:33 |
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| sc68cal | Anyone else have any topics to discuss? | 14:35 |
| xuhanp | sc68cal, I have a topic to discuss if you finish this one? | 14:35 |
| sc68cal | xuhanp: all yours | 14:35 |
| xuhanp | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/114437 | 14:36 |
| xuhanp | I am work on a bug to find the replacement for gratuitous ARP in IPv6 form | 14:36 |
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| xuhanp | For HA | 14:36 |
| FJB | Who gets pinged? | 14:36 |
| sc68cal | xuhanp: reading now | 14:37 |
| aveiga | that depends on what you're looking for | 14:37 |
| aveiga | there's a multicast address for each type of device | 14:38 |
| aveiga | all-nodes, all-routers, etc | 14:38 |
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| FJB | A ping to "all nodes" sounds, um, "interesting". | 14:38 |
| aveiga | but if the HA is using something like HSRP or VRRP, you just need to send an NS for the gateway | 14:39 |
| FJB | yes | 14:39 |
| sc68cal | xuhanp: so currently we need to find a way to inject ND packets in a way that works in multiple distros, instead of just ubuntu? | 14:39 |
| FJB | as in <subnet>::0 | 14:39 |
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| xuhanp | It's for HA backup router who takes over to advertise ARP reply | 14:40 |
| xuhanp | for IPv6, we need to send out unsolicited neighbor advertisement. | 14:40 |
| xuhanp | I found a ubuntu software ndsend who can do this. | 14:40 |
| xuhanp | but not on other platforms. | 14:40 |
| xuhanp | anyone have any ideas on this? | 14:40 |
| xuhanp | Brian Haley commented: There is no equivalent command to send a Neighbour Advertisement, it will simply be done when Duplicate Address Detection is run. | 14:40 |
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| aveiga | xuhanp: actually, just issue a new RA | 14:40 |
| aveiga | no need for the NS | 14:40 |
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| aveiga | since it's being sent from the router, it should take over the RA job from the primary | 14:41 |
| aveiga | let the old RA timeout (your timers are already short, right?) then takeover from the new node | 14:41 |
| paraa | you can set the priority higher to let it takeover instantly | 14:41 |
| aveiga | it should come from the source LLA anyway, so no need for ND to happen | 14:41 |
| aveiga | paraa: priority is ignored by almost all linux distros currently :/ | 14:41 |
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| haleyb | xuhanp: my other question about that change was why are we doing proxy ndp when there's not NAT, but is this for HA? | 14:44 |
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| sc68cal | haleyb: I think xuhanp missed your line | 14:46 |
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| xuhanp | I got disconnected. sorry about that. | 14:46 |
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| haleyb | i'll paste it again | 14:47 |
| haleyb | xuhanp: my other question about that change was why are we doing proxy ndp when there's not NAT, but is this for HA? | 14:47 |
| xuhanp | yes. this is for HA cause the ARP of IPv4 is for HA | 14:48 |
| xuhanp | and there is a bug reported since ARP doesn't work for IPv6 | 14:48 |
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| xuhanp | sc68cal, since we don't get an conclusion here, may I take this to the ML? Or I missed the answer during my disconnection? | 14:53 |
| sc68cal | ML is probably good - you didn't miss an answer during your disconnect | 14:53 |
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| xuhanp | sounds great | 14:53 |
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| haleyb | xuhanp: sorry, got distracted, but yes, if you can find some utility to send these that would be ok with me | 14:54 |
| xuhanp | haleyb, my problem is I only find one for ubuntu. not for other platforms. | 14:54 |
| haleyb | but i would assume that configuring the address would send an NS | 14:54 |
| haleyb | i.e. when DAD is run | 14:55 |
| aveiga | again, you shouldn't have to send a new NS | 14:55 |
| aveiga | since it's a router, sending a new RA should trigget that whole procedure for you | 14:55 |
| aveiga | trigger* | 14:55 |
| sc68cal | xuhanp: yeah it's kind of odd, that util you found is part of the openvz package, according to manpage. Probably an odd dependency to add for Neutron | 14:56 |
| xuhanp | sc68cal, right. | 14:56 |
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| haleyb | Maybe the ML or that review is a good place to comment since we're almost out of time | 14:56 |
| sc68cal | markmcclain and I had a wacky idea to write some neutron code that would inject ICMPv6 RA packets directly. Might be another use case ;) | 14:57 |
| aveiga | sc68cal: I second this for unicasting RAs for floats :-P | 14:57 |
| sc68cal | and when I say markmcclain and I had a wacky idea, mostly mark said it to me and I liked it because it's awesome - he had the idea | 14:57 |
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| haleyb | sc68cal: you mean using a library to inject an AF_PACKET packet? | 14:58 |
| sc68cal | yeah, trying to remember the name of that python lib for packet processing | 14:58 |
| sc68cal | scapy | 14:59 |
| xuhanp | aveiga, do we need to trigger to send RA when backup turns into master in HA conf? | 14:59 |
| aveiga | xuhanp: if the device is acting as a router, it needs to send an RA anyway | 14:59 |
| aveiga | shouldn't need to trigger anything | 14:59 |
| sc68cal | Sounds like we need a thread on the ML :) | 14:59 |
| sc68cal | we're out of time | 14:59 |
| xuhanp | I will send out an email | 15:00 |
| sc68cal | xuhanp: awesome | 15:00 |
| sc68cal | Thanks everyone for attending, see everyone on the ML or #openstack-neutron! | 15:00 |
| sc68cal | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 26 15:00:32 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-08-26-14.02.html | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-08-26-14.02.txt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-08-26-14.02.log.html | 15:00 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting gantt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 26 15:00:49 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'gantt' | 15:00 |
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| n0ano | anyone here to talk about the scheduler? | 15:01 |
| bauzas | \o | 15:01 |
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| mspreitz | yes | 15:01 |
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| n0ano | looks like I missed a lively meeting last week but we'll get to that later | 15:02 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: yeah, last week one was good to discuss | 15:02 |
| jaypipes | o/ | 15:03 |
| n0ano | let's get started, maybe others will join in | 15:03 |
| n0ano | #topic resource model for scheduler | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "resource model for scheduler (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:03 | |
| bauzas | sure | 15:03 |
| bauzas | sooooo | 15:03 |
| n0ano | bauzas, jaypipes you said you were going to look at this, any progress? | 15:03 |
| bauzas | n0ano: I thought about the sched split yeah | 15:04 |
| bauzas | n0ano: so, maybe let me explain why this action item is there | 15:04 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: so we could discuss about the progress after that | 15:04 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: so, basically, the last week discussion was about how bad the scheduler was about updating stats | 15:04 |
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| bauzas | atm, resources are passed to the sched each 60 secs by writing into compute_nodes DB table some JSON fields called "resources" | 15:05 |
| bauzas | long story short, we thought it was needed to give a more API for scheduler updates | 15:06 |
| bauzas | so, the proposal is re: scheduler-lib patch and what is passed now | 15:06 |
| bauzas | the idea is to make use of the next method that will be provided thanks to the patch | 15:07 |
| bauzas | hold on | 15:07 |
| bauzas | https://review.openstack.org/82778 | 15:07 |
| bauzas | https://review.openstack.org/82778 is the API proposal for scheduler updates | 15:07 |
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| bauzas | so, here we provide a JSON field called 'values' | 15:07 |
| bauzas | based on last week discussion, we identified the need to keep that method but provide high-level Objects instead of these JSON blobs | 15:08 |
| bauzas | so the plan is | 15:08 |
| bauzas | 1/ merge that patch | 15:08 |
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| bauzas | 2/ provide a change for providing ComputeNode object instead of values JSON field into that method | 15:09 |
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| bauzas | that requires some work on ComputeNode object, ie. making sure that it's correct | 15:09 |
| bauzas | the main pain point is the Service FK we have on that object | 15:10 |
| bauzas | hence I owned a bug created by jaypipes for cleaning up CN : https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1357491 | 15:10 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1357491 in nova "Detach service from compute_node" [Wishlist,Triaged] | 15:10 |
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| bauzas | sooooo | 15:10 |
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| n0ano | a couple of issues come to mind - 1) does this require a change to the DB (which currently holds that JSON string) and 2) how extensible is the new method (I know of changes bubbling underneath related to enhanced compute node stats) | 15:11 |
| bauzas | once we have ComputeNode passed instead of arbitrary JSON field, we should think on how provide other objects if needed for filters | 15:11 |
| bauzas | n0ano: about 1/ | 15:12 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: there should be a change about FK on service_id which will be deleted | 15:12 |
| bauzas | n0ano: apart from that, no changes on DB | 15:12 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: because instead of calling db.compute_update, we would be issue compute_obj.save() | 15:13 |
| bauzas | which is by far better | 15:13 |
| n0ano | so, rather than passing a JSON string in `values' we pass a ComputeNode object (that contains that same JSON string) | 15:13 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: the main difference being that's not arbitrary fields but versioned and typed ones | 15:13 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: your thoughts on that ? | 15:14 |
| n0ano | I'm not objecting actually, it seems we're just making the API heavier weight for minimal gain but it still works and if everyone thinks its better that's fine | 15:14 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: yeah, the problem is that we discovered some problems with the current situation | 15:15 |
| n0ano | I think both my points don't really apply, the DB will be the same and you can extend things by changing the `resources' string in the ComputeNote object, different way of doing the same thing | 15:16 |
| bauzas | n0ano: for example, with NUMA patches, ndipanov had to convert back from JSON to an object, it was a pure hack | 15:16 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: the extent of ComputeNode is yet to be discussed | 15:17 |
| jaypipes | bauzas: sorry, on phone... | 15:17 |
| n0ano | jaypipes, can you scroll back, do we match your thinking? | 15:18 |
| bauzas | n0ano: from my perspective, we should say that ComputeNode could have some dependent classes | 15:18 |
| bauzas | n0ano: one other point while jaypipes is on the phone, we discussed about the claim thing | 15:18 |
| n0ano | just remembering that we have to consider how any changes to the ComputeNode object will be reflecting in the comput_node table in the DB | 15:18 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: wrt a very good paper I recommend, I'm pro having a in-scheduler claim system | 15:19 |
| bauzas | n0ano: that's already tied | 15:19 |
| bauzas | n0ano: have you seen the link I provided about this paper, the Omega one ? | 15:19 |
| n0ano | that was my concern, change the ComputeNode table implies changing the DB | 15:19 |
| n0ano | haven't read that yet, I saw the link, I'll read it | 15:20 |
| n0ano | in general I agree, I think the scheduler is the right central place to track resources | 15:20 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: http://eurosys2013.tudos.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/paper/Schwarzkopf.pdf | 15:21 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: that one is basically saying that an optimistic scheduler with retry features is better than a divide-and-conquer scheduler | 15:21 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: in terms of scalability | 15:22 |
| n0ano | well, I thought we currently `had` an optimistic with retries :-) | 15:22 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: right but with a slight difference about the claiming thing | 15:22 |
| bauzas | n0ano: in Omega, claiming is done on a transactional way | 15:22 |
| bauzas | n0ano: here that's a 2-phase commit | 15:23 |
| bauzas | n0ano: that said, I think the most important problem for the split is about the API | 15:23 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: hence the work to provide clean interfaces | 15:24 |
| n0ano | indeed +1 | 15:24 |
| bauzas | n0ano: kind of a follow-up of scheduler-lib | 15:24 |
| n0ano | seems to me that just changing to the ComputeNode object shouldn't be that big a change | 15:24 |
| bauzas | n0ano: think so too | 15:24 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: tbh, that's even part of the move-to-objects effort | 15:24 |
| n0ano | so, back to mechanics, the plan is to push the current sched-lib patch and then change it to use an object - right? | 15:25 |
| bauzas | +1 | 15:25 |
| bauzas | that still doesn't mean we agreed on how to update filters for isolate-sched-db :) | 15:25 |
| bauzas | ie. I think we need to make use of that API instead of the ERT | 15:26 |
| n0ano | right about now just getting the sched-lib resolved seems like a major accomplishment :-) | 15:26 |
| n0ano | let's segue into the next topic | 15:26 |
| bauzas | jaypipes was having some concerns about the naming of such a method :) | 15:26 |
| bauzas | +1 | 15:27 |
| n0ano | #topic forklift status | 15:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "forklift status (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:27 | |
| bauzas | (at least once jaypipes is freed from his phone :) ) | 15:27 |
| bauzas | soooo | 15:27 |
| bauzas | I think we covered the first bit of the split | 15:27 |
| n0ano | seems to me the isolate-sched-db is hung up on the ERT discussion, is there anyway to resolve that? | 15:27 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: by speaking of that, I think we should not rely on ERT for providing that | 15:28 |
| bauzas | n0ano: but on scheduler-lib and objects instead | 15:28 |
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| n0ano | if there's a way to be independant from ERT I'm +2 for that | 15:28 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: the way has to be designed yet still :) | 15:29 |
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| n0ano | well, we kind of have to, what do we do if they decide to revert ERT out? | 15:29 |
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| n0ano | the other option is we code to the current interfaces (e.g. we use ERT) and only change if ERT is changed | 15:30 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: well, I think we need to think what's a resource | 15:31 |
| bauzas | n0ano: here I'm saying that a resource is a ComputeNode object | 15:31 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: if we want to claim things, that should be on the ComputeNode object too | 15:31 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, that's kind of a high level view, I would call resources many of the things encapsulated by the ComputeNode object | 15:32 |
| bauzas | n0ano: that's where I disagree | 15:32 |
| n0ano | I guess the question is how coarse can the resources be | 15:32 |
| bauzas | n0ano: IMHO, we should provide a claim class per object | 15:33 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: ie. "I want to claim usage for ComputeNode" | 15:33 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: but I can also "claim usage for an Aggregate" | 15:33 |
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| n0ano | but you don't claim the entire ComputeNode, I want to claim 2G of mem from the node and 2 vCPUs and so on, hence you need a finer granularity | 15:34 |
| bauzas | n0ano: the idea behind that is that the computation of the usage is done on the object itself, so it can be shared with RT until we give that to the scheduler | 15:34 |
| n0ano | not following, how do I claim that 2G of mem | 15:35 |
| bauzas | n0ano: well, you're probably right, it would be a 1:N dependency | 15:36 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: ie. a ComputeNode object could have a ClaimCPU object, a ClaimMemory etc. | 15:37 |
| n0ano | claiming the ComputeNode object is simpler so I'd accept it as a start but, ultimately, I think we'll want finer control | 15:37 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: well, the outcome of this is to have a compute_obj.cpu.claim(usage) method but you get the idea | 15:38 |
| mspreitz | n0ano: finer in what way? | 15:38 |
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| * n0ano screams at X window, let my keyboard talk :-) | 15:38 | |
| n0ano | mspreitz, rather than claiming an entire compute node object claim 2G from that node and 2 vCPUs and so on | 15:39 |
| mspreitz | I thought that's what bauzas is saying | 15:39 |
| bauzas | n0ano: to be precise, I don't like the word "claim" | 15:40 |
| bauzas | n0ano: I prefer compute_obj.make_use_of() | 15:40 |
| mspreitz | bauzas: who quantifies how much usage? | 15:41 |
| bauzas | so what you "claim" is a subset of the resource itself | 15:41 |
| bauzas | mspreitz: atm, that's compute based on request_spec | 15:41 |
| bauzas | mspreitz: it will probably be the scheduler wrt request_spec in the next future | 15:41 |
| mspreitz | how would the scheduler modulate what is in the request spec? | 15:42 |
| n0ano | bauzas, so the compute node would call compute_obj.make_use_of() reserve resources, is that the idea | 15:42 |
| bauzas | n0ano: that's from my mind, correct | 15:42 |
| n0ano | bauzas, and then that would have to be sent to the scheduler via an API | 15:42 |
| bauzas | n0ano: correct too, until scheduler calls directly that method | 15:43 |
| n0ano | bauzas, and would you reserve multiple resources with one call or have to make a separate call for each resource | 15:43 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: well, you go into the details where that still WIP in my mind :) | 15:43 |
| n0ano | sorry, just doing a mind dump here :-) | 15:44 |
| bauzas | I'm just thinking of aggregates and instances here | 15:44 |
| bauzas | or NUMATopology | 15:44 |
| n0ano | there are details to be worked out but, as long as the ability to reserver specific resouces is there, I'm OK with it | 15:44 |
| mspreitz | those of us who want to make joint decisions also want to make joint claims | 15:44 |
| n0ano | mspreitz, hence my question about whether multiple calls are needed | 15:45 |
| mspreitz | right, I did not see a clear answer | 15:45 |
| bauzas | frankly, I don't think it's here yet | 15:45 |
| mspreitz | I was hoping for an affirmation that this is a goal | 15:45 |
| n0ano | mspreitz, I don't think we have one yet, this is just bauzas thinking for the future | 15:46 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: still otp ? | 15:46 |
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| n0ano | mspreitz, I agree with the goal of supporting joint decisions, I don't want to do anything that would preclude that | 15:46 |
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| n0ano | well, back to immediate concerns, how do we proceed with the isolate-sched-db? | 15:48 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: I think we still need to see how community is thinking about ERT | 15:49 |
| bauzas | n0ano: and leave the patches there | 15:49 |
| bauzas | n0ano: but in the mean time, I need to carry on the move to ComputeNode for updating stats and think about the alternative | 15:50 |
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| n0ano | OK (maybe), I don't like treading water but I guess we can, hopefully the ERT will be decided soon (it better be_ | 15:50 |
| bauzas | n0ano: anyway, the spec is not merged so we can't say "eh, that was validated before so that needs to be there" | 15:50 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: PaulMurray is still on PTO until end of this week AFAIK | 15:51 |
| n0ano | bauzas, yeah, I rattled some cages but didn't get a response, at least it hasn't be rejected | 15:51 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: you can voice your opinion there | 15:52 |
| n0ano | really?, I was hoping ERT would be decided this week, now we have to wait until next week, sigh | 15:52 |
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| bauzas | https://review.openstack.org/115218 Revert patch for ERT | 15:52 |
| bauzas | yay, that's the price to pay for having a dependency on such a new feature :) | 15:52 |
| n0ano | yeah but nothing is going to happen until Paul gets back, that's the important thing | 15:52 |
| bauzas | +1 | 15:53 |
| n0ano | sigh | 15:53 |
| n0ano | moving on | 15:53 |
| bauzas | n0ano: hence my work on ComputeNode | 15:53 |
| n0ano | #topic opens | 15:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "opens (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:53 | |
| n0ano | anything new anyone? | 15:53 |
| bauzas | I'll probably be on PTO end of this week | 15:53 |
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| mspreitz | I think there's a flaky CI | 15:53 |
| bauzas | and maybe the begining of next week | 15:53 |
| bauzas | mspreitz: ie. ? | 15:54 |
| n0ano | isn't there a bauzas 2.0 scheduled soon :-) | 15:54 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: bauzas 3.0 tbp | 15:54 |
| mspreitz | check-tempest-dsvm-full | 15:54 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: coming in theaters end of this week | 15:54 |
| n0ano | congratulations and good luck | 15:54 |
| n0ano | mspreitz, I would imagine that will be a topic for the nova meeting this week | 15:55 |
| mspreitz | ok, thanks | 15:55 |
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| bauzas | mspreitz: well, you can at least check if a bug has been filed | 15:55 |
| bauzas | and create it if so | 15:55 |
| mspreitz | yeah, haven't had a chance to do that yet | 15:55 |
| mspreitz | hope to get to it | 15:55 |
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| mspreitz | soon | 15:55 |
| bauzas | mspreitz: that's the most important thing, because it needs to be categorized | 15:56 |
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| bauzas | so, rechecks can be done on that bug number and that could get a trend | 15:56 |
| bauzas | mspreitz: you can also try logstash to see the frequency of your failure | 15:56 |
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| mspreitz | bauzas: oh, what's that? | 15:57 |
| n0ano | I pretty much just blindly recheck once, only if I get a second failure on code I think is good do I look for a CI issue | 15:57 |
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| bauzas | dammit, I would recommend a training on the next Summit for you :) | 15:58 |
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| bauzas | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ElasticRecheck | 15:58 |
| bauzas | and in particular | 15:58 |
| bauzas | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/GerritJenkinsGit#Test_Failures | 15:58 |
| mspreitz | thanks, I'll read that again | 15:58 |
| n0ano | OK, top of the hour, I'll thank everyone, talk again next week | 15:59 |
| n0ano | #endmeeting | 15:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 26 15:59:22 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:59 |
| bauzas | sure, thanks | 15:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-08-26-15.00.html | 15:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-08-26-15.00.txt | 15:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-08-26-15.00.log.html | 15:59 |
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| boris-42 | #startmeeting rally | 17:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 26 17:03:03 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'rally' | 17:03 |
| boris-42 | Hi Rally team! | 17:03 |
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| boris-42 | k4n0 RainbowBastion marcoemorais harlowja_away olkonami hi guys | 17:04 |
| k4n0 | o/ hi all | 17:04 |
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| rediskin | -_- | 17:05 |
| boris-42 | rediskin hi there | 17:06 |
| rediskin | hi all | 17:06 |
| oanufriev | hi | 17:06 |
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| boris-42 | oanufriev hi | 17:07 |
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| boris-42 | okay I'll start | 17:08 |
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| boris-42 | #topic support of benchmarking with pre created users | 17:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "support of benchmarking with pre created users (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:08 | |
| boris-42 | so the idea is to avoid creation of temporary users and be able to benchmark with existing users | 17:08 |
| boris-42 | to do this I decided to extend ExistingEngine config to accept admin & users | 17:09 |
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| boris-42 | and do all related change | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116766/ | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | but patch is not fully ready, as well there will be some hacks and refactoring of context | 17:10 |
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| boris-42 | to remove hardcoded usage of user context | 17:10 |
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| boris-42 | so I hope during this week I'll finish work on this | 17:11 |
| boris-42 | any questions? | 17:11 |
| rediskin | how users will be created? | 17:11 |
| boris-42 | rediskin they are lady exist | 17:11 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin in OpenStack | 17:12 |
| boris-42 | rediskin usually in production OpenStack is using existing LDAP | 17:12 |
| rediskin | oh | 17:12 |
| rediskin | ok | 17:12 |
| boris-42 | rediskin with read only access | 17:12 |
| boris-42 | rediskin that's the issue, so people is not able to run benchmarks against their production clouds | 17:12 |
| rediskin | ok. got it | 17:13 |
| boris-42 | ok next topic? | 17:13 |
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| olkonami | May be it's a stupid question. But why can't we just extend user context to specify existing users there& | 17:13 |
| boris-42 | openstack so good question | 17:13 |
| rediskin | +1 | 17:14 |
| boris-42 | olkonami rediskin so the issue is next | 17:14 |
| boris-42 | openstack rediskin I want to run 100 benchmarks | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | olkonami rediskin in one task | 17:15 |
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| boris-42 | I will need to write 100 times the similar users | 17:15 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami rediskin so for end user it will be simpler to describe during creating deployment these users, then specify every time | 17:16 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami rediskin it doesn't mean that we won't have existing-users context | 17:16 |
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| rediskin | i thought also about shared contexts or named contexts | 17:17 |
| boris-42 | rediskin yep this will be as well one of the features that we should discuss | 17:17 |
| rediskin | one context multiple tasks | 17:17 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin I want to make something like persistance-context | 17:17 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin e.g. running task against context (not deployment) | 17:17 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin as well I am thinking about general section for benchmark config | 17:18 |
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| olkonami | +1 for general section for benchmark congfig | 17:18 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami we should think a lot about this | 17:18 |
| boris-42 | olkonami and make proposals cause it's user facing changes | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | olkonami so they should be done 1 time and forever | 17:19 |
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| olkonami | boris-42. ok. clear | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | olkonami rediskin so actually I think having a deployment with users will be better actually | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | olkonami rediskin in most cases | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | olkonami rediskin cause you can run different tasks without changing them every time | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | olkonami rediskin depending on users | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | okay let's move | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | #topic msdubov came back from vacation woot | 17:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "msdubov came back from vacation woot (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:21 | |
| boris-42 | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Rally/Updates | 17:21 |
| boris-42 | ^ we have finally fresh update | 17:21 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Generic cleanup | 17:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Generic cleanup (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:21 | |
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| boris-42 | rediskin could you share updates ? | 17:22 |
| rediskin | im working on reafactoring cleanup mechanism | 17:22 |
| rediskin | now it will be done via cleanup classes | 17:22 |
| rediskin | with minimum code duplication and rate limiting and retry ability | 17:23 |
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| rediskin | patch is almost done https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116269/ | 17:24 |
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| rediskin | boris-42: ^ | 17:24 |
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| k4n0 | boris-42, I am finishing up unit tests coverage blueprint https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116958/ | 17:25 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin oh it's a bit magic=) | 17:26 |
| boris-42 | rediskin will take a look later | 17:26 |
| boris-42 | rediskin btw what do you think about part related to deleting resources by pattern-names? | 17:26 |
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| rediskin | boris-42: it may be separate command | 17:27 |
| rediskin | rally cleanup or something similar | 17:27 |
| boris-42 | rediskin i mean another thing | 17:27 |
| boris-42 | rediskin would it be simpler to delete users using naming patterns? | 17:27 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin e.g. then it will be similar in case of admin resources and user resources | 17:28 |
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| rediskin | we can delete all resources in such manner | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | rediskin nope we can't if we are deleting only by patterns | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | rediskin e.g. by name of resource | 17:29 |
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| rediskin | why? | 17:29 |
| boris-42 | for resource in resources.list() if pass_tempate(resource.name) | 17:29 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin e.g. deleting all resource that are starting with rally_* | 17:29 |
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| rediskin | delete all rally_* volumes tenants users images etc | 17:29 |
| boris-42 | rediskin or maybe even better rally_<task_uuid> | 17:30 |
| rediskin | +1 | 17:30 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin so it will simplify logic a lot ? | 17:31 |
| boris-42 | rediskin and we will be able to use this stuff in both cases admin/non-admin users | 17:31 |
| rediskin | not sure if lot | 17:31 |
| boris-42 | rediskin but at least it will be similar to "rally deployment cleanup" | 17:31 |
| rediskin | i will think about it, ok | 17:32 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin great, I mean keep thing simple=) | 17:32 |
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| boris-42 | #topic introduction to "rally info" | 17:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "introduction to "rally info" (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:33 | |
| boris-42 | Okay guys we have absolutely new command | 17:33 |
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| boris-42 | "rally info" | 17:33 |
| boris-42 | it's internal manual for rally =) | 17:33 |
| boris-42 | e.g. in future you'll be able to retrieve absolutely everything via it | 17:33 |
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| boris-42 | for now you can do something like | 17:34 |
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| boris-42 | rally info find CeilometerAlarms | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | and it will show pretty output | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | any questions? | 17:35 |
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| olkonami | have we already merged this? | 17:36 |
| boris-42 | olkonami yep | 17:36 |
| boris-42 | olkonami basic stuff yep | 17:36 |
| olkonami | cool ^) | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | olkonami but there is a lot of work in this area | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | olkonami =) | 17:37 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Welcome Designate team=) | 17:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Welcome Designate team=) (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:37 | |
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| boris-42 | ekarlso hey there | 17:38 |
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| ekarlso | boris-42: ello | 17:38 |
| ekarlso | i'm just hiding atm | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | ekarlso =) | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | ekarlso so I'll need to review some of your patches=) | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | ekarlso but seems like gates are not in the best fit | 17:39 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin could you help us to create a rally-gate with rally/desingate and probably other incubated projects? | 17:39 |
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| boris-42 | ekarlso okay I hope he will help us =) | 17:42 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Changes in Results json Schema | 17:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Changes in Results json Schema (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:43 | |
| boris-42 | guys I am going to start work on new versions of json schema for output of results | 17:43 |
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| boris-42 | e.g. currently we are facing few issues | 17:43 |
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| boris-42 | 1) Stress engine can't store in native way results | 17:43 |
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| boris-42 | 2) There is no way to store results if we make a engine/runner that will run multiple scenarios simultaneously | 17:44 |
| boris-42 | so I am going to extend a bit format to cover these case | 17:44 |
| boris-42 | this will as well involve change rally task config, graphs and rally detailed function | 17:44 |
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| boris-42 | k4n0 rediskin olkonami ekarlso ^ | 17:45 |
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| k4n0 | boris-42, ok, can you document this somewhere? | 17:45 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 yep | 17:45 |
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| k4n0 | boris-42, thanks | 17:45 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 I am going to make google doc with changes | 17:45 |
| boris-42 | so it will be draft to start dicussion | 17:45 |
| k4n0 | boris-42, please share with me | 17:45 |
| boris-42 | I'll share with everybody =) | 17:46 |
| olkonami | good good | 17:46 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Stress runner | 17:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Stress runner (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:46 | |
| boris-42 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94806/ | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | this is quite old patch ^ | 17:47 |
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| boris-42 | from olkonami ^ | 17:47 |
| boris-42 | I think that we should make it in a bit different way | 17:47 |
| boris-42 | e.g. why not having 1 stress runner | 17:47 |
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| boris-42 | that can use other runners | 17:47 |
| boris-42 | and run them multiple times | 17:47 |
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| boris-42 | so we can change a bit current runners (to add support of getting next stress arguments) or some stuff like that | 17:48 |
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| boris-42 | but in generally *any* load generator can be used with stress stuff | 17:49 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 olkonami rediskin thgouths? | 17:49 |
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| k4n0 | boris-42 1 stress runner sounds good | 17:49 |
| olkonami | good thought, than may be we can extend BaseRunner for this functionality? | 17:50 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami ya some method should be that allows to iterate "stress" arugments | 17:50 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami e.g. every method should describe own stress notation | 17:51 |
| boris-42 | olkonami runner* | 17:51 |
| boris-42 | olkonami but this will be as well related to changing format of task results | 17:51 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami I will propose tomorrow changes | 17:51 |
| boris-42 | olkonami so we will disucss in more details | 17:51 |
| boris-42 | ok | 17:52 |
| boris-42 | #topic free discussion | 17:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "free discussion (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:52 | |
| boris-42 | anybody has any questions/topics to disucss? | 17:52 |
| olkonami | why own notation? I prefer general notation for all runner, I think it is possible | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | olkonami it can't be general | 17:53 |
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| olkonami | or some general part at least | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | olkonami cause RPS runner should be iterate in one way, Constant in antoher | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | olkonami RPS for duration, and constant for duration in third | 17:53 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami I don't think that it's really hard to do | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | olkonami it's just another JSON schema | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | olkonami like we already have | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | olkonami https://github.com/stackforge/rally/blob/master/rally/benchmark/runners/rps.py#L98-L117 | 17:54 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami so there will be stress *one* | 17:55 |
| olkonami | oh, yes, I understand | 17:55 |
| boris-42 | olkonami so we will get more control on level of runner | 17:55 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami e.g. general stress runner will just get new values to run new iteration of stress | 17:55 |
| boris-42 | olkonami so it will have clean logic | 17:56 |
| boris-42 | olkonami and won't depend on other runners | 17:56 |
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| boris-42 | okay | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | we have to end meeting | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | #endmeeting | 17:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:57 | |
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| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 26 17:57:38 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:57 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-08-26-17.03.html | 17:57 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-08-26-17.03.txt | 17:57 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-08-26-17.03.log.html | 17:57 |
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| dolphm | ayoung, bknudson, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, fmarco76, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich, hrybacki, rharwood, grantbow, vdreamarkitex, raildo, rodrigods: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:00 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:00 |
| * morganfainberg wakes up. | 18:00 | |
| gyee | \o | 18:00 |
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| henrynash | tally-ho, a good evening to all | 18:00 |
| rharwood | \o | 18:00 |
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| dstanek | o/ | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | i'm guessing ayoung is on vacation since i haven't seen him on irc the last couple days. | 18:00 |
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| rharwood | I believe so, yeah | 18:00 |
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| stevemar | o/ | 18:01 |
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| bknudson | we're allowed to vacation? | 18:01 |
| grantbow | o/ | 18:01 |
| dolphm | bknudson: close your ears | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, lol | 18:01 |
| joesavak | \o o/ : ) | 18:01 |
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| topol | o/ stevemar and I are multitasking :-) | 18:01 |
| dolphm | #startmeeting keystone | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 26 18:01:52 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:01 |
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| dolphm | #topic Feature freeze September 4th | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Feature freeze September 4th (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| lbragstad | hi | 18:02 |
| dolphm | so, that's NEXT WEEK! | 18:02 |
| topol | bknudson is free to vacation as long as that means spending all his time on keystone instead of most of it | 18:02 |
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| dolphm | and we're now in our review window where new features cannot be proposed, and we have a fixed list of reviews to land | 18:02 |
| bknudson | that would be nice | 18:02 |
| dolphm | which looks like this: | 18:03 |
| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/starredby:dolph+is:open,n,z | 18:03 |
| gyee | NFL kick off on 9/4 | 18:03 |
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| dolphm | that's 42 open review, 23 of which still require review/iteration | 18:03 |
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| bknudson | thanks for the link! | 18:03 |
| grantbow | +1 | 18:04 |
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| bknudson | otherwise I'd just use next-review | 18:04 |
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| dstanek | the validation stuff needs a little rework and some of the reviews will be abandoned today | 18:04 |
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| dolphm | yay, i'd love to shorten the list | 18:04 |
| dolphm | even if it means cheating lol | 18:04 |
| dolphm | dstanek: but there was some redundancy in that series? | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | a number of the non-persistent ones are gating | 18:04 |
| dstanek | some patches have merged and others are no longer needed :-) | 18:05 |
| dstanek | merged into other patches still under reivew... | 18:05 |
| lbragstad | dstanek: just proposed https://review.openstack.org/#/c/111620/ which is the first in line | 18:05 |
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| dolphm | alrighty, as soon as they're no longer open they'll be dropped from that list (either merged or abandoned) | 18:05 |
| lbragstad | and needed to do the rest of the testing on the different validation patches | 18:06 |
| topol | dolphm, so they all need to be merged by 9/4 correct? | 18:06 |
| stevemar | jsonhome and non-persistent are lookin real good! | 18:06 |
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| raildo | dolphm: I have some patches about hierarchical projects that need to be reviewed | 18:06 |
| lbragstad | wait... sorry, wrong link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116954/1 | 18:06 |
| dolphm | raildo: i'd like to get those into a feature for juno as well | 18:07 |
| henrynash | dolphm, raildo: I’ll volunteer to give those a good review | 18:07 |
| stevemar | while we're on the topic of pleading for reviews, can i get folks to look at the keystone2keystone stuff :) | 18:07 |
| bknudson | are the hierarchical projects on https://review.openstack.org/#/q/starredby:dolph+is:open,n,z ? | 18:07 |
| raildo | henrynash: great, i will send for you | 18:07 |
| stevemar | i'll be more than happy to walk people through | 18:07 |
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| bknudson | and k2k? | 18:08 |
| dolphm | bknudson: no, they're not targeted to juno-3 | 18:08 |
| dstanek | dolphm: can you star those too? | 18:08 |
| bknudson | juno-4 ?? | 18:08 |
| stevemar | bknudson, it needs love, we finally got our requirements patch landed | 18:08 |
| topol | bknudson, we get ajun-4??? | 18:08 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: dstanek: no, i'd like to land them in a feature branch rather than master | 18:08 |
| topol | juno-4? | 18:08 |
| dstanek | dolphm: ah, ok | 18:08 |
| raildo | henrynash: #link http://paste.openstack.org/raw/100590/ | 18:08 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, there are 2 more minor things to get in for FF if possible, in the non-persistent line, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116961/ and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116962/ mostly quality of life fixes no functional changes | 18:09 |
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| dstanek | raildo: the last time i looked i was pretty happy with how things were going | 18:09 |
| bknudson | there's no keystoneclient in https://review.openstack.org/#/q/starredby:dolph+is:open,n,z ... | 18:09 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, ksc and middleware don't have FF in the same way | 18:10 |
| bknudson | so I don't know if there's anything that we'd really like to have. | 18:10 |
| raildo | dstanek: thank you, the code is almost ready | 18:10 |
| dolphm | bknudson: the client falls outside the named release cycle, so it's not under feature freeze, etc | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, they are released independent of the named cycles | 18:10 |
| bknudson | I realize it's not the same but I assume there'll be a release at about the time of juno | 18:10 |
| dolphm | bknudson: usually aim for a last release closer to rc1 | 18:10 |
| bknudson | ok, can focus on those then | 18:11 |
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| henrynash | dolphm: the endpoint-policy extenion is in godo shape…but queued up behind getting the endpoint/region/region_id fix in | 18:11 |
| raildo | dstanek: henrynash We divided into several patches to facilitate the review,because the change is a little big | 18:11 |
| dolphm | henrynash: that's what i've heard :) the Region ID fix looks pretty close last i checked as well | 18:12 |
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| dstanek | raildo: yes, i've been reviewing them periodically for a week or so | 18:12 |
| henrynash | dolphm: indeed…I’ll working with KanagarajM to get that in (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/113183/21) | 18:12 |
| dolphm | raildo: and impactful :) we'll need to work together later to get those same patches propoposed to a new branch instead of master | 18:12 |
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| raildo | dolphm: Ok, I think we can talk about this after the meeting :) | 18:13 |
| dolphm | we also have two outstanding work items on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/deprecated-as-of-juno that were "assigned" to ayoung and jamielennox, but they appear to be out | 18:14 |
| dolphm | oh jamielennox is back! | 18:14 |
| dolphm | i stand corrected | 18:14 |
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| jamielennox | sorry VPN issues | 18:14 |
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| jamielennox | got here eventually | 18:14 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox: no worries | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, i'll be working on the auth plugin test bits | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, it's just refactoring some tests nothing more | 18:14 |
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| jamielennox | the /auth endpoints are merged in keystone | 18:14 |
| jamielennox | the identity-api review is still up | 18:15 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: test bits? | 18:15 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: oh we missed the api review?! | 18:15 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, yeah the support for loading auth_plugins by class name is the one from ayoung | 18:15 |
| jamielennox | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/115423/ | 18:15 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg: ++ it has a deprecation message, but doesn't say anything more than 'deprecated.' what's the state of tests? | 18:15 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: damn, thanks | 18:16 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: the identity-api part is mostly formality as the response format will be the same as existing responses | 18:16 |
| stevemar | dolphm, i have a few reviews to move some specs to Kilo | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, just need to do a little bit of work to register some config options and de-register them | 18:16 |
| jamielennox | so yes we missed it, but not a big deal here | 18:16 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: still, we need docs :) | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, it's just stopping using the plugins='<class.path.in.keystone>,<other.plugin.class.path>' and going back to the (in my opinion awful), plugins = "name, name name", and separate options for each class | 18:17 |
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| dolphm | but there was a use case that the deprecated option didn't easily support - using the same plugin under multiple names | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, since the class-name loading was not documented people went down the path of assuming it wasn't used and developed whole processes around plungins not "knowing" their method. | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, yep. | 18:18 |
| bknudson | You'd think we'd use stevedore for plugins | 18:18 |
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| henrynash | dolphm: did we ever mark the kvs backends for idenity and assignent as deprecated? If so, could we kill them? | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, which is why i was willing to let that deprecated option go, and why i'll fix the tests to not use that method (the class-name-method was never documented) | 18:19 |
| dolphm | henrynash: good question, not sure? | 18:19 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash, no i don't think they've been marked as deprecated | 18:19 |
| gyee | bknudson, can't, plugins are deployment-specific, unless we shipt the plugins in separate package | 18:19 |
| henrynash | dolphm: I’m looking, but can’t see them marked | 18:19 |
| stevemar | down with kvs backends! | 18:19 |
| dolphm | henrynash: happy to deprecate them this cycle | 18:20 |
| henrynash | dolphm: agreed | 18:20 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, henrynash, the initial thought was to do dogpile for them, but honestly, i don't see a big benefit | 18:20 |
| dolphm | except morganfainberg's token backend? (morganfainberg?) | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, please don't deprecate the tokne one :) | 18:20 |
| henrynash | dolphm, morganfainberg: I’d swear I’ve seen logs saying their deprecate, but maybe in my dreams | 18:20 |
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| dolphm | henrynash: fantasies* | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, the token kvs one will report deprecated | 18:21 |
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| henrynash | morganfainberg: ah, right…I think that was it | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, i'll fix that by making a "test" one that doesn't log that | 18:21 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: but it shouldn't? | 18:21 |
| bknudson | the one kvs backend we want to keep is deprecated? | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | oh oh wait | 18:21 |
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| bknudson | I think some kind of kvs backend is deprecated | 18:22 |
| bknudson | like a base kvs backend or something. | 18:22 |
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| dolphm | we should have a centralized list of everything that's deprecated, sorted by when it'll be removed :( | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | the base key-value-store is deprecated | 18:22 |
| bknudson | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/keystone/tree/keystone/common/kvs/legacy.py#n49 | 18:22 |
| bknudson | remove in J | 18:23 |
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| morganfainberg | https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/master/keystone/common/kvs/legacy.py#L48 | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | yes | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | but the KVS identity backend, and assignment backend were not explicitly marked | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | as the initial thought was to re-implement with dogpile | 18:23 |
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| dolphm | the token backend is the only one i'd appreciate having a kvs option for | 18:24 |
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| dolphm | dogpile or not, but preferrably dogpile | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, and that one uses dogpile | 18:24 |
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| dolphm | so using a KVS assignment driver **doesn't** log a deprecation warning for example, correct? | 18:24 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, it would log a deprecation message that keystone.common.kvs.KeyValueStore is deprecated | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, not that assignment.kvs was | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | erm | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | keystone.common.kvs.Base | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | is deprecated | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | sory | 18:25 |
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| dolphm | hmm... and was that a +1 or +2 release deprecation? | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | probably not strong enough to remove assignment/identity kvs stores | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | it was a +1, deprecated in icehouse | 18:26 |
| henrynash | dolphm: ICEHOUSE+1 | 18:26 |
| dolphm | maybe we should bump that to icehouse+2 and deprecate the actual drivers? | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, sure | 18:27 |
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| dolphm | so for juno, it'll just be a stronger warning | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, i'm on board with that | 18:27 |
| henrynash | dolphm: me too | 18:27 |
| henrynash | dolphm : and then we get to kill identity and assignment in Kilo | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | and K1 they can disappear... and lighten a ton of code out of our codebase (and tests) | 18:27 |
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| dolphm | henrynash: \o/ | 18:28 |
| henrynash | dolphm: excellent!!! | 18:28 |
| dolphm | and that's like next week or something assuming we have no bugs | 18:28 |
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| bknudson | we can spend more time keeping the ldap backend up with sql | 18:28 |
| henrynash | dolphm: sign me up that one! | 18:28 |
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| dolphm | henrynash: sign up for tweaking the deprecation now, or removing it in kilo? | 18:28 |
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| henrynash | dolphm: removing in Kilo…but happy to do the dpreciation now too | 18:29 |
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| dolphm | henrynash: done https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/deprecated-as-of-juno | 18:30 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg: so, on the auth plugin naming thing - are you going to improve the current warning message, or something else? | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, i'll improve the message but that method of loading plugins wasn't documented | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, more importantly i'll fix the tests to not use that method of loading plugins (without going back to config files) | 18:31 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: the deprecated way wasn't documented? | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | nope | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | but all the tests used it | 18:32 |
| dolphm | ah, gotcha | 18:32 |
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| morganfainberg | i'm not too worried about someone using that method. | 18:32 |
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| gyee | morganfainberg, but we can support both :) | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, no, we can't. if someone uses the plugins multuple times, with different names, you can't mix/match | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, so we'll just remove the load-by-classname support in K? L? | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | and go back to the old way. | 18:34 |
| bknudson | I'd just write a plugin and have it report a different name. | 18:34 |
| dolphm | so, i hope this isn't lofty with 23 remaining reviews (plus these little patches to improve deprecations), but my goal this week to have all juno-3 things approved and gating by CoB friday so we can have a few days to fight the gate | 18:34 |
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| bknudson | why would I have plugins multiple times with different names? | 18:34 |
| dolphm | so *please* *please* *please* pitch in on reviews | 18:35 |
| dolphm | bknudson: your solution was my solution as well | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, mapped can be used for SAML, OpenID, K2K, etc | 18:35 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, my solution would be yours | 18:35 |
| gyee | bknudson, difference is dynamic versus static | 18:35 |
| dolphm | bknudson: which is why i think i re-prioritized a high/critical bug by ayoung to a wishlist | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, but i gave up on the argument. | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, i think the dynamic is really sloppy in this case, but it is what people are using and it works. - there are more important arguments to be had | 18:36 |
| gyee | mapped is generic by nature | 18:36 |
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| morganfainberg | gyee, the argument is i want to use "password" but call it "CoolPassword" instead but not break people using "Password" | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | (bad example, but it's really waht people are asking for) | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | so instead of subclassing and making a new "CoolPassword" plugin, just use the plugin twice with a different name | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | same argument for anything that uses mapped, might be a different name, but mapped is the core plugin code | 18:38 |
| gyee | there's only *one* plugin to handle a given auth payload | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, right but if you want to use the same plugin for different auth payloads | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | the plugin doesn't care, it's just handed a payload | 18:39 |
| bknudson | we could use a fancy format like class:plugin_name | 18:39 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: are all your patches in the check queue? | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, yes. | 18:40 |
| bknudson | can I pass options to the plugin? | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, the rest of non-persistent will be a Kilo target :( | 18:40 |
| bknudson | btw - were we going to make UUID tokens the default? | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, too many roadblocks fixing revocation events etc to land the refactor of issuance/validate | 18:40 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg: understood. i'm going to keep the bp on the juno-3 list until what made FF is merged - plus those two tiny patches | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, that was -2'd by ayoung. | 18:41 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, there is a lot of detail on the discussion on that front in the IRC logs and on that patch | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ++ | 18:41 |
| dolphm | if you'd like to vote for/against changing the default token provider from PKI to UUID https://review.openstack.org/#/c/110488/ | 18:42 |
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| morganfainberg | oh on that topic | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | results to the survey on token provider usage | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | #link https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-LX589JF8/ | 18:43 |
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| bknudson | 30% are able to use PKI. | 18:44 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: i wish you could correlate the comments with responses | 18:44 |
| jamielennox | morganfainberg: do you need to sanitize the long form answers before publishing that | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | you can | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-LX589JF8/browse/ | 18:44 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: click the 'individual responses' link | 18:45 |
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| morganfainberg | jamielennox, eh, i don't think so. | 18:45 |
| bknudson | they use PKI for security? | 18:45 |
| dolphm | jameiooh thanks | 18:45 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: thanks | 18:45 |
| dolphm | bknudson: that's the one i was wondering about actually. | 18:45 |
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| dolphm | PKI provides a completely false sense of additional security | 18:45 |
| gyee | PKI token doesn't offer any more security | 18:45 |
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| gyee | I thought the main argument was performance | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, arguably in grizzly it provided LESS security | 18:46 |
| dolphm | gyee: that is true | 18:46 |
| dolphm | gyee: pretty sure our docs say that as well | 18:46 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: in ...every... release | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, but people like "OMG CRYPTO" | 18:46 |
| dolphm | 3 so far | 18:46 |
| gyee | dolphm, I am fine with default it back to UUID | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | this one: We have a black box appliance that act likes a WAF but it only understands UUID token | 18:47 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, crypto != security | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | meaning... it probably only understands v2 uuid. | 18:47 |
| dolphm | gyee: tell our users that :( | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, what dolphm said | 18:47 |
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| gyee | yeah, +2 | 18:47 |
| dolphm | it's sort of silly that our default option is historically unstable and less secure even after 3 releases (and about to be 4)... and still not a realistic option in production | 18:48 |
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| morganfainberg | this one is interesting: | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | 1) PKI token -- Not user friendly ( Too dificult to use with CURL) | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | 2) Horizon by default converts PKI to UDDI internally ( this will not work, if someone change default hashing algorithim) | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | 3) Revoke token logic is not that reliable. We don't have system bus to collect revocation event. It is easy to say, use event, but it is difficult to setup and manage that infrastructure just for revocation events | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | i think that sums up the general view on PKI | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | that i've heard | 18:48 |
| * morganfainberg wonders if that was gyee 's response >.> | 18:49 | |
| jamielennox | also we keep having needs to put more stuff in the token (or auth response) and it's just not going to work with PKI | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | lots of problems in there for PKI header size | 18:49 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:49 |
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| gyee | morganfainberg, 4) all of the above | 18:49 |
| Haneef | I know for sure, it is not from gyee | 18:49 |
| dolphm | gyee: that was all in one response lol | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | Haneef, haha ok :) | 18:50 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox: as much as i'd hate to agree with adding more stuff to the token... ++ | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, i think we can make uuid tokens *way* better | 18:50 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: well the 'adding more stuff to the token' issue is primarily only a problem because of PKI | 18:50 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg: me too | 18:50 |
| jamielennox | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:51 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox: it's also a problem for us when we try to parse apart the token, and there's always new attributes etc... i wish we could simplify all that | 18:51 |
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| bknudson | we need to figure out at the summit how to get tokens to work... it shouldn't be this difficult. | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: right but our lack of good token format that people abuse is not a problem about the size and 'official' content in there | 18:52 |
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| gyee | jamielennox, are you advocating xml token? :) | 18:52 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, i think we can make tokens better, and if we focus on making uuid tokens better we could also move towards signed requests instead of x-auth-token (long term) | 18:53 |
| jamielennox | gyee: i think you can get a token response as XML with UUID ? | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i've floated some ideas on the token improvements, but i know some people are against it. | 18:53 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: so just switch to oauth? | 18:53 |
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| stevemar | open id connect :D | 18:53 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: yes you can | 18:53 |
| bknudson | it seems like we shouldn't be inventing something when there must be an existing solution. | 18:54 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i actually was thinking the EC2 model is pretty nice. | 18:54 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: I looked at it a little bit and it looks better than what we've got. | 18:54 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: how is it different from oauth? | 18:54 |
| dolphm | real ec2, not our shared secret hack | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, keypair and HMAC sign your request, then the endpoint does some backend lookup for extra auth | 18:55 |
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| gyee | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, they use a distributed fast store that the endpoints can lookup the data from afaict | 18:55 |
| gyee | xacml, yay | 18:56 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg: i said "different" from oauth? | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, LOL | 18:56 |
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| gyee | wait, endpoint policy is sorta like xacml | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, well oauth1 sucks :P | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, oauth2 is closer to that | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, i was thinking different than *out* oauth | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | our* | 18:56 |
| stevemar | dolphm, morganfainberg fwiw, cloud foundry uses oauth2 and openid connect for their authZ, authN ... https://github.com/cloudfoundry/uaa/blob/master/docs/UAA-APIs.rst | 18:57 |
| stevemar | just tossing that one out there | 18:57 |
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| jamielennox | that's the format of oauth requests, but given that we don't want all the delegation stuff why would we call it oauth2 | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | part of our issue is the keystone internal idp isn't a full featured idp and a lot of people use it | 18:58 |
| topol | um yeah, that does kind of work and seems so standard :-) | 18:58 |
| bknudson | we can steal their rest api | 18:58 |
| gyee | big corporate = standard | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, 2min left | 18:58 |
| topol | gyee, you STARTUP guy :-) | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | i think we should plan to do a "fix the tokens... no really" summit session | 18:59 |
| topol | fix the tokens .. no really we mean it this time | 18:59 |
| * lbragstad plans to attend | 18:59 | |
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| morganfainberg | and be willing to assume uuid and PKI are off the table. | 18:59 |
| morganfainberg | in their current forms | 18:59 |
| dolphm | pretty sure i just dropped for a bit - just switched from wifi to not | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | we're at time | 19:00 |
| bknudson | thanks! | 19:00 |
| * dolphm REVIEWS PLZ! https://review.openstack.org/#/q/starredby:dolph+is:open,n,z | 19:00 | |
| dolphm | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 26 19:00:52 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-08-26-18.01.html | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-08-26-18.01.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-08-26-18.01.log.html | 19:00 |
| clarkb | o/ | 19:01 |
| anteaya | o/ | 19:01 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:01 |
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| sweston | o/ | 19:01 |
| wenlock | o/ | 19:01 |
| fungi | heyhey! | 19:01 |
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| grantbow | o/ | 19:01 |
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| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 26 19:01:28 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:01 |
| nibalizer | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting | 19:01 |
| krtaylor | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #link last meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-19-19.02.html | 19:01 |
| jesusaurus | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| jeblair | jeblair Publish python-jenkins 0.3.3 (last release without pbr) tarball to pypi | 19:02 |
| jeblair | that happened | 19:02 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | so did 0.3.4 | 19:02 |
| anteaya | yay | 19:02 |
| jeblair | because 0.3.3 was broken | 19:02 |
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| anteaya | :( | 19:02 |
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| fungi | if there were no broken releases we'd never have new releases ;) | 19:02 |
| anteaya | ha ha ha | 19:02 |
| jesusaurus | heh, true | 19:02 |
| jeblair | but now i think that's all taken care of, and the next (0.4.0?) release can be done by zaro by pushing a tag in the normal way | 19:02 |
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| ianw | o/ | 19:03 |
| jeblair | pleia2 create new mailing lists | 19:03 |
| zaro | i think that will happen in about a month. | 19:03 |
| pleia2 | that was done, anteaya will talk about it later in the meeting | 19:03 |
| jeblair | #link http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/third-party-announce | 19:03 |
| anteaya | I can talk now | 19:03 |
| jeblair | pleia2: i reordered :) | 19:03 |
| anteaya | they are up | 19:03 |
| pleia2 | oh good :) | 19:03 |
| anteaya | thanks pleia2 | 19:03 |
| jeblair | #link http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/third-party-request | 19:03 |
| anteaya | this is my first time admining lists, feedback welcome | 19:04 |
| krtaylor | yea! | 19:04 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116989 | 19:04 |
| anteaya | and that is the patch to redirect folks to use the lists | 19:04 |
| anteaya | a speedy iteration prevents a week of transition | 19:04 |
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| jeblair | yeah, probably best to do this quickly to avoid confusion | 19:04 |
| jeblair | are there outstanding requests from folks we have received on the infra list? | 19:05 |
| clarkb | jeblair: there are a few yes | 19:05 |
| pleia2 | a couple | 19:05 |
| anteaya | I'm standing by to offer new patchsets for 116989 if folks have -1s | 19:05 |
| jeblair | okay, we should probably avoid asking people to resubmit on the new list, that's just silly | 19:05 |
| anteaya | agreed | 19:05 |
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| jeblair | i think when anteaya's change merges, we should announce the new policy to the old list | 19:05 |
| jeblair | ask everyone to subscribe to the announce list | 19:06 |
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| fungi | agreed | 19:06 |
| jeblair | and new requests go to the request list | 19:06 |
| anteaya | agreed | 19:06 |
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| jeblair | and explicitly mention that old requests don't need to be resubmitted | 19:06 |
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| anteaya | I can bulk import gerrit email addresses to the announce list | 19:06 |
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| anteaya | anyone think that is a bad idea? | 19:06 |
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| jeblair | anteaya: we could consider inviting them, but not actually subscribing them | 19:07 |
| anteaya | okay, I can invite them | 19:07 |
| jeblair | anteaya: mailman lets you do either in bulk | 19:07 |
| pleia2 | anteaya: that's an option in the interface | 19:07 |
| pleia2 | yeah | 19:07 |
| anteaya | if we prefer I invite, I will invite | 19:07 |
| jeblair | (they'll get a message saying 'click here to confirm' etc) | 19:07 |
| krtaylor | ++ | 19:07 |
| jeblair | yeah. i'd be very much opposed to subscribing without confirmation | 19:07 |
| fungi | right, never bulk-subscribe people without prior consent or a very, very good reason | 19:07 |
| anteaya | should reduce some cruft right off the bat | 19:07 |
| anteaya | invite it shall be | 19:08 |
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| anteaya | I think that was all I needed here | 19:08 |
| anteaya | anything I am missing? | 19:08 |
| anteaya | okay thanks | 19:08 |
| jeblair | #action anteaya invite third-party email addrs from gerrit to announce list | 19:09 |
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| jeblair | who wants to send the email to -infra announcing the new lists/policies after 116989 merges? | 19:09 |
| * jeblair is happy to if no one else loves that idea | 19:09 | |
| pleia2 | I can do it | 19:10 |
| fungi | i can as well | 19:10 |
| * fungi bows to pleia2 ;) | 19:10 | |
| anteaya | everyone wants that job | 19:10 |
| jeblair | #action pleia2 send the email to -infra announcing the new lists/policies after 116989 merges | 19:10 |
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| jeblair | anteaya, pleia2: thanks! | 19:11 |
| pleia2 | anteaya: left a comment in the review | 19:11 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Specs (jeblair) | 19:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Specs (jeblair) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:11 | |
| clarkb | I left one too which expanded on pleia2's | 19:11 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100363/ | 19:11 |
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| fungi | i think that one's probably ready for approval unless more people want to go through it? | 19:11 |
| clarkb | I was happy with it | 19:12 |
| * nibalizer here to answer questions | 19:12 | |
| fungi | or unless nibalizer wants to address any of the suggestions on that last patchset | 19:12 |
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| nibalizer | ill update it for those suggestions | 19:13 |
| nibalizer | clarkb: did you want to talk more about the symlink? | 19:13 |
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| clarkb | nibalizer: not here, if you update the spec about what that is for I think that is enough | 19:13 |
| nibalizer | okay sweet | 19:13 |
| nibalizer | will do | 19:13 |
| jeblair | nibalizer: also, "Set hiera.yaml appropriately to source both dirs in order" -- does that need more detail too? | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | that's an infra-root action, right? | 19:13 |
| nibalizer | jeblair: no hiera.yaml will be managed by puppet | 19:14 |
| nibalizer | it should be a file resource | 19:14 |
| jeblair | ok nevermind then. it can be documented in the puppet | 19:14 |
| wenlock | nibalizer, as a side note, we use hieradata strucutre on forj.io, we manage this with puppet, no symlinks required | 19:14 |
| jeblair | nibalizer: so we'll wait for your update about the rationale for the symlink, then it looks like it's ready to approve | 19:14 |
| nibalizer | okay cool | 19:15 |
| jeblair | wenlock: maybe you could weigh in on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100363 after nibalizer writes the update? | 19:15 |
| nibalizer | wenlock: lets follow up after the nmeeting | 19:15 |
| wenlock | yes, i'll read up on it today | 19:15 |
| jeblair | wenlock: that way we'll know if we're doing something different than you are that requires it, or if we've missed something and don't really need it :) | 19:16 |
| wenlock | nibalizer, sounds good, we can point you to our source on that | 19:16 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/99990/ | 19:16 |
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| jeblair | i think this is probably ready modulo syntax errors? | 19:16 |
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| nibalizer | i think at this point that one is us fighting with restructured text parsing | 19:17 |
| wenlock | jeblair, i'd like to propose that you use librarian-puppet as option in install_module.sh to manage the repos | 19:17 |
| clarkb | I need to rereview it with the new problem statement but yes I think it is pretty close | 19:17 |
| clarkb | wenlock: I will -2 that :) | 19:17 |
| nibalizer | but i think for the ideas there we're largely getting consensus | 19:17 |
| clarkb | wenlock: we can talk about why after the meeting | 19:17 |
| jesusaurus | i think i cleaned up all the syntax errors, but the work items could use a re-review | 19:17 |
| wenlock | jeblair +2 for subtree workflow too, this worked nice on our side | 19:17 |
| wenlock | clarkb, yes, i'd like to understand how you will manage tags/revs, etc. | 19:17 |
| jeblair | jesusaurus: it's currently failing tests | 19:18 |
| anteaya | nibalizer: I agree with the content of 99990 if we can get the rst parsing figured out | 19:18 |
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| jesusaurus | jeblair: thats an old test, it should get through the check queue in like 6 hours or so | 19:18 |
| jeblair | oh ok | 19:18 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/110730/ | 19:18 |
| jeblair | oh no, i have unaddressed comments | 19:19 |
| fungi | jesusaurus: i added some comments to the latest patchset as well (i had them in draft for an earlier one) | 19:19 |
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| jeblair | anyway, i think resolution to the comments already in that one is straightforward, so please go ahead and review with that in mind | 19:20 |
| jesusaurus | fungi: thanks | 19:20 |
| fungi | jeblair: i have some more in draft i need to add too, though i can port them forward to the next iteration if i don't get to it before you update | 19:20 |
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| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/110793/ | 19:21 |
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| jeblair | a few updates noted inline there | 19:21 |
| clarkb | jeblair: I think you need to make at least one edit to 110793 as well | 19:22 |
| clarkb | jeblair: but it is pretty close | 19:22 |
| jeblair | probably the main thing is that there's a section where i list 3 options for openstack-manuals | 19:22 |
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| jeblair | option 2 is yucky. option 3 is probably the default option because it doesn't really change anything from the docs pov | 19:23 |
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| jeblair | option 1 actually simplifies the jobs somewhat, at the cost of some extra cpu time | 19:23 |
| clarkb | I am a fan on 1 | 19:24 |
| clarkb | s/on/of/ | 19:24 |
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| jeblair | i should probably work with AJaeger on quantifying that and seeing what the impact would be | 19:24 |
| jeblair | anything else on these specs? | 19:25 |
| fungi | yeah, i think i'm really okay with any of the three options, keeping in mind that eventual optimization with afs will probably trump any of them for efficiency anyway | 19:25 |
| jeblair | yup | 19:25 |
| fungi | so simpler==better for now probably | 19:26 |
| jeblair | #topic Translations demos active, sent to Daisy (pleia2) | 19:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Translations demos active, sent to Daisy (pleia2) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:26 | |
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| pleia2 | this is mostly an FYI | 19:26 |
| pleia2 | we have demos up for both zanata on wildfly and pootle 2.6 | 19:27 |
| jeblair | pleia2: do you have an idea of the relative ease of pupetting those two options? | 19:27 |
| clarkb | note the pootle 2.6 demo has not had translate-dev dns udpated to point at it because we lack openid and I want to keep it in a position where its really just a demo and not a dev server | 19:27 |
| pleia2 | we have step by step instructions for how they both were deployed in etherpads, but neither of them will be easy | 19:27 |
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| pleia2 | zanata is a bit trickier since the wildfly support is not official yet, so it's a bit hacky as they continue to work on it | 19:28 |
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| clarkb | I think the biggest thing from pootle side is that we will have to run the various django managementy commands some of which expect human input (may need a graphite like hack for that) | 19:28 |
| jeblair | pleia2: we do run one django app via puppet (graphite) | 19:28 |
| fungi | pleia2: also a gut feel for which would require more ongoing care and feeding (infra core effort)? | 19:28 |
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| pleia2 | fungi: zanata, since we don't work with jboss/wildfly today, and we do work with django | 19:28 |
| clarkb | I do have a couple concerns about pootle. The first is allauth makes the openid stuff harder not easier :/ and second the UI is thoroughly unintuitive at least to me | 19:29 |
| clarkb | but for the second thing I defer to the translation team(s) | 19:29 |
| anteaya | how long do the translation folks need to complete their assessment? | 19:29 |
| pleia2 | I haven't looked deeply into zanata's openid support, but right now in our demo it is taking the https://launchpad.net/~lyz addresses as logins (we'll need to simplify and restrict this) | 19:29 |
| jeblair | clarkb: what do you think needs to happen for openid? | 19:30 |
| jeblair | pleia2: in either case, i think nothing short of openid sso is acceptable | 19:30 |
| pleia2 | anteaya: uncertain, we're getting to the point in the cycle where they will be really busy with translations work | 19:30 |
| jeblair | clarkb: for pootle | 19:30 |
| anteaya | pleia2: fair | 19:30 |
| clarkb | jeblair: allauth needs to support a single openid provider (there is an open bug for this). also allauth and/or pootle need to learn how to do a single type of auth | 19:30 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: today it looks like you always get local auth in addition to whatever allauth other mechanisms you have enabled | 19:31 |
| pleia2 | as far as evaluation, Daisy has admin on both systems and I'll be working with her to help present the demos to the team on a schedule she determines | 19:31 |
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| clarkb | there is an open bug against pootle for the second thing which I need to follow up on and possibly file a bug against allauth for | 19:31 |
| anteaya | yay Daisy | 19:31 |
| pleia2 | if anyone else wants admin, lmk | 19:31 |
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| anteaya | pleia2: you're a great admin :D | 19:32 |
| jeblair | pleia2: do you have any idea how receptive the pootle dev(s) would be to this kind of work? | 19:32 |
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| pleia2 | jeblair: they've really been leaning on django for all openid stuff, clarkb has some open bugs that they've responded to | 19:32 |
| clarkb | jeblair: pleia2: ya I think they would be receptive but have already said go fix it in allauth | 19:32 |
| pleia2 | yeah | 19:32 |
| jeblair | how about zanata? what's it take for openid there? | 19:34 |
| pleia2 | it works, haven't looked into restricting to only openid | 19:34 |
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| jeblair | i should say openid sso | 19:34 |
| jeblair | cause it sounds like right now, it asks for your openid, right? | 19:34 |
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| pleia2 | http://15.126.226.230:8080/account/register | 19:35 |
| pleia2 | yeah, so where it wants openid just put in your http://launchpad.net/~user address | 19:35 |
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| jeblair | and it also has the "and a local account" problem | 19:35 |
| pleia2 | yeah | 19:35 |
| jeblair | well, i added openid sso to gerrit; i could probably add it to zanata too :) | 19:36 |
| pleia2 | I don't know what mechanism they're using for this, but they've been eager to help us get support for other things we need | 19:36 |
| jeblair | even better if they do it :) | 19:36 |
| jeblair | i also added it to pootle, but that's neither here nor there | 19:36 |
| pleia2 | I think that's it for this week, we'll tackle issues down the road as we come to them and the translations team gets a better idea of what works for them | 19:37 |
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| jeblair | i think from our pov, openid-sso is critical, and easy of installation/maintenance is the next most important | 19:37 |
| * pleia2 nods | 19:38 | |
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| clarkb | ++ | 19:38 |
| pleia2 | zanata install steps: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zanata-install | 19:38 |
| jeblair | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zanata-install | 19:38 |
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| pleia2 | pootle install steps (down at line 47 and below): https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/pootle-250-upgrade | 19:38 |
| jeblair | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/pootle-250-upgrade | 19:39 |
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| jeblair | we probably have some anti-patters in puppet for gerrit that we can crib for some of the zanata stuff | 19:40 |
| pleia2 | oh, and zanata will probably be available via ansible..recipes? so hopefully we'd be able to convert them to puppet | 19:40 |
| jeblair | anti-patterns | 19:40 |
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| jeblair | pleia2: cool, thanks | 19:40 |
| jeblair | #topic Open discussion | 19:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:40 | |
| anteaya | so something has come out of the reviews so far on my patch | 19:41 |
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| anteaya | what are the expectations for thrid party folks regarding the two new lists | 19:41 |
| fungi | the upcoming renames list has the dashboard puppet module on it, proposed to go to openstack-attic... that can come off the list right? | 19:41 |
| anteaya | I want all third party folks to subscribe to both lists | 19:41 |
| anteaya | to announce to keep alert for their system if it is disabled | 19:41 |
| anteaya | to request to help me out | 19:42 |
| jeblair | fungi: yeah, we should just merge a change to readme saying it's dead | 19:42 |
| anteaya | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116989 | 19:42 |
| fungi | jeblair: i'll propose a bunch of "it's dead jim" patches to projects in the same boat in that case | 19:42 |
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| jeblair | anteaya: i think that would be useful. i think announce should be considered a requirement (i don't intend on policing it); requests is a nice-to-have | 19:43 |
| anteaya | only if I can call you bones, fungi | 19:43 |
| anteaya | jeblair: I can live with that | 19:43 |
| krtaylor | ++ | 19:43 |
| anteaya | I'm not going to police either list | 19:43 |
| anteaya | but if they don't know their system is disabled it is on them | 19:43 |
| fungi | i think announce should be a very strong suggestion, since if we're making changes you need to be aware of or taking your systems offline, that's where you're going to find out about it | 19:44 |
| jeblair | anteaya: exactly | 19:44 |
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| anteaya | fungi: I tried to capture that strong suggestion in the wording of my patch | 19:44 |
| krtaylor | I vote requirement | 19:44 |
| anteaya | krtaylor: no | 19:44 |
| fungi | and if you aren't subscribed to the announce list or aren't paying attention, then it's your problem not ours | 19:44 |
| anteaya | requirements are basis for disabling a system if they aren't met | 19:44 |
| krtaylor | anteaya, why not? | 19:45 |
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| anteaya | if they aren't subscribed to announce disablying their system isn't going to be my action | 19:45 |
| jeblair | anteaya: it will also be where we send notifications of policy changes (lack of adherence to which would get systems disabled too) | 19:45 |
| anteaya | jeblair: agreed | 19:45 |
| krtaylor | I am thinking more in terms of announcements that CI teams will want to know, that is important | 19:46 |
| krtaylor | what jeblair said | 19:46 |
| anteaya | fungi: also I have tried to capture the strong wording in teh message on the landing page for the list | 19:46 |
| anteaya | krtaylor: right | 19:46 |
| krtaylor | so why wouldn't it be a requirement? we need a global communication channel | 19:47 |
| anteaya | requirements are what gets your system disabled if you don't have them | 19:47 |
| krtaylor | or not granted in the first place | 19:47 |
| anteaya | I am not going to disable a system if they don't subscribe to a mailing list | 19:47 |
| anteaya | they are foolish if they don't, but that is on them | 19:48 |
| krtaylor | I don't think that would be a problem, but listing it in the requirements section would be ok | 19:48 |
| anteaya | I disagree | 19:48 |
| fungi | however they may get disabled because they missed announcements on that mailing list, or they might not find out in a timely manner that they were disabled because we reached out to them via that list | 19:48 |
| anteaya | fungi: true | 19:49 |
| anteaya | again their responsibility | 19:49 |
| anteaya | some of the onus has to be on them for their actions | 19:49 |
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| krtaylor | true, but not a good track record of that, at least initially | 19:50 |
| anteaya | no | 19:50 |
| anteaya | so anyway I hope taht clarifies my patch | 19:50 |
| krtaylor | I am happy we have the lists, hopefully everyone will sign up | 19:51 |
| jeblair | ++ | 19:51 |
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| jeblair | well, if that's it, i reckon we can end early | 19:53 |
| clarkb | oh I did the tox and trusty stuff | 19:53 |
| clarkb | it went mostly ok | 19:53 |
| jeblair | oh cool | 19:54 |
| fungi | it went remarkably well, i thought | 19:54 |
| clarkb | glance hiccuped and so did a couple of our tools and stackforge puppet | 19:54 |
| anteaya | yay tox and trusty | 19:54 |
| clarkb | but considering we have several hundred projects it went well :) | 19:54 |
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| anteaya | :) | 19:54 |
| clarkb | thats it | 19:54 |
| fungi | and some review teams got a bit of a learning experience about prioritizing prerequisite changes for scheduled infra activities | 19:54 |
| jeblair | haha | 19:55 |
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| clarkb | but we are future proofed until tox does their next release | 19:55 |
| anteaya | great | 19:55 |
| jeblair | clarkb: is there more to do with trusty? eg, zuul layout? | 19:55 |
| hashar | hey. is that open discussion yet? :D | 19:56 |
| clarkb | jeblair: nope, not unless the stackforge puppet team wants to move puppet 2.7 back to precise | 19:56 |
| pleia2 | hashar: has been for quite some time :) | 19:56 |
| hashar | great | 19:56 |
| nibalizer | clarkb: yeaaaaa | 19:56 |
| nibalizer | so i think that gate is busted | 19:56 |
| clarkb | nibalizer: even with mgagne's fix? | 19:56 |
| nibalizer | did that land? | 19:56 |
| clarkb | yes | 19:56 |
| nibalizer | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116915/ ? | 19:56 |
| hashar | so for those that don't know me, I am the continuous guy at wikimedia foundation and I have basically copy pasted Zuul setup to our infra. | 19:56 |
| jeblair | hashar: and improved zuul :) | 19:57 |
| hashar | I would like to hereby publicly thank you in the name of me and the wikimedia foundation folks for all your hard work supporting third party installation | 19:57 |
| nibalizer | clarkb: its like i was saying yesterday, 'double puppet install' isnt the problem, ruby 1.9.3 is the problem | 19:57 |
| hashar | from Zuul (which is awesome) to kindly maintaining python-jenkins | 19:57 |
| jeblair | hashar: oh, you're very welcome! | 19:57 |
| fungi | hashar: you're welcome, and thanks for all your help too! | 19:57 |
| mgagne | clarkb: so much lag, no result yet on my test :-/ | 19:57 |
| jeblair | hashar: thank you for using it and helping us make it better | 19:57 |
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| zaro | hashar: thanks in turn for your contributions! | 19:58 |
| hashar | our jobs are stressful, and little time is spent to say thanks. So here you have: merci beaucoup ! | 19:58 |
| anteaya | thanks hashar | 19:58 |
| mgagne | -> Thank you for helping us help you help us all. | 19:58 |
| anteaya | :) | 19:58 |
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| jeblair | and we're going to start using hashar's zuul-cloner soon :) | 19:58 |
| hashar | and I got Zuul cloner deployed in production last week. It is now voting as of today ! :D | 19:59 |
| jeblair | mgagne: well put! :) | 19:59 |
| fungi | hashar: also, in a broader context, thanks for keeping mediawiki and by extension wikipedia working. i use them both a lot | 19:59 |
| hashar | (((that is on Wikimedia production, not OpenStack! ))) | 19:59 |
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| anteaya | yes | 19:59 |
| ttx | I used that too | 19:59 |
| clarkb | hashar: nice! | 19:59 |
| jeblair | fungi, hashar: ++ | 19:59 |
| mgagne | with GLaDOS' voice | 19:59 |
| hashar | yeah MediaWiki is quite fun :] | 19:59 |
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| clarkb | hashar: and thank you! | 19:59 |
| hashar | thought it can be scary and is not yet as tested as openstack can be. But we are working on it! | 20:00 |
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| jeblair | what a nice way to end a meeting :) | 20:00 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| mgagne | 2h15m lag as of now | 20:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 26 20:00:22 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| hashar | \O/ | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-26-19.01.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-26-19.01.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-26-19.01.log.html | 20:00 |
| mgagne | wrong channel | 20:00 |
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| ttx | oooook... Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:00 |
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| jeblair | o/ | 20:00 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:00 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:00 |
| bswartz | .o/ | 20:00 |
| mgagne | oh, just got mentioned on meeting, didn't see ^^' | 20:00 |
| boris-42 | hi | 20:01 |
| markmc | hey | 20:01 |
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| ttx | annegentle, mikal, mordred, devananda, vishy, markmcclain, jaypipes, dhellmann : around ? | 20:01 |
| vishy | o/ | 20:01 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:01 |
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| ttx | that makes 7. | 20:01 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:01 |
| annegentle | here! | 20:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 26 20:01:48 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:01 |
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| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:02 |
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| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:02 |
| ttx | devananda is proxied by jeblair | 20:02 |
| ttx | #topic A program for Rally (part 2) | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "A program for Rally (part 2) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| zehicle_at_dell | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/108502 | 20:02 |
| ttx | So this is the continuation of the discussion we started on August 5 | 20:02 |
| ttx | We paused for a couple of weeks to see if a middle ground was possible where the QA program would adopt Rally, but those efforts were not very successful | 20:03 |
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| ttx | At this point I think it's fair to conclude that Rally won't be adopted by the QA program | 20:03 |
| ttx | Which leaves two options: | 20:03 |
| ttx | A/ consider that benchmarking is essential to the completion of the OpenStack project mission, and accept a Benchmarking (or SLA management, or...) program | 20:03 |
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| ttx | B/ consider that Rally would be more successful as a product built on top of OpenStack for the time being | 20:03 |
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| ttx | which basically translates into accepting the abovementioned review (or some variant of it) or rejecting it | 20:04 |
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| ttx | There are a number of -1s on that review, but they don't all mean the same thing | 20:04 |
| russellb | seems collaboration has been pretty bumpy, which makes me worry about accepting the program | 20:04 |
| ttx | some of them are about exploring the QA option (jeblair, markmcclain, russellb) | 20:04 |
| russellb | so i'm leaning toward B at this point | 20:04 |
| ttx | some are discussing program names (markmc, devananda) | 20:04 |
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| boris-42 | russellb btw why? | 20:05 |
| markmc | yeah, I'm disappointed how the thread went | 20:05 |
| boris-42 | russellb in such case I am not sure that we will have same ability to help projects like QA | 20:05 |
| ttx | jeblair, markmcclain: Now that the QA option is out of the table, would you mind clarifying where you stand (on the A/B choice above) ? | 20:05 |
| markmc | was hopeful some concrete plan for collaboration would come out of it | 20:05 |
| boris-42 | russellb e.g. blocking adding rally gates | 20:05 |
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| russellb | markmc: right | 20:05 |
| boris-42 | russellb markmc actually to be fair we tempest & rally are resolving quite different use cases | 20:06 |
| boris-42 | russellb markmc and it's okay that there are 2 tools for 2 different things | 20:06 |
| russellb | it's not even just that part | 20:06 |
| boris-42 | russellb ? | 20:06 |
| ttx | I'm leaning like Russell... if that can't work within QA at this point I tend to lean towards (B), at least for the time being | 20:06 |
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| russellb | even small things like the proposal for the nova job | 20:06 |
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| russellb | but anyway, i'm not sure what we get by accepting the program right now, you can still keep doing what you're doing | 20:06 |
| markmcclain | ttx: I'm leaning towards B | 20:07 |
| boris-42 | russellb yep but I will get every time -1 from QA guys | 20:07 |
| ttx | I think it's one of those areas that could benefit from us not blessing a particular solution today | 20:07 |
| russellb | would rather accept it when it's more obvious how integrated rally is to the way we work | 20:07 |
| jeblair | i feel strongly enough that much of the work rally is doing should be done in QA and in tempest | 20:07 |
| boris-42 | russellb when I will try to do something useful for projects | 20:07 |
| jeblair | i agree 100% with sdague's email here: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-August/041818.html | 20:07 |
| boris-42 | russellb but it's already integrated.. | 20:07 |
| boris-42 | jeblair I am not sure about this | 20:07 |
| boris-42 | jeblair the reason is the different view of how things should be done | 20:07 |
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| boris-42 | jeblair ti's from the begging | 20:07 |
| ttx | jeblair: tl;dr: is that A or B? | 20:08 |
| boris-42 | jeblair functional testing != benchmarking | 20:08 |
| jeblair | ttx: B | 20:08 |
| ttx | jeblair: thx :) | 20:08 |
| boris-42 | russellb jeblair as well I really don't see any issues with integration in gates rally.. | 20:08 |
| russellb | is anyone on A ? | 20:08 |
| ttx | any TC member wanting to defend the A option at this point ? | 20:08 |
| russellb | jinx. | 20:09 |
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| ttx | where is jaypipes when we need someone to play devil's advocate | 20:09 |
| boris-42 | ttx jaypipes is against | 20:09 |
| boris-42 | ttx I mean B | 20:09 |
| sdague | I'm on B, I think that hopefully clear from stuff I put on the list | 20:09 |
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| boris-42 | ttx I can be proxy | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | I would have liked to see an operators tools group started, but I'm not sure the current rally team is the right team to do it. | 20:09 |
| ttx | boris-42: he could still play devil's advocate and defend A for us | 20:09 |
| boris-42 | ttx nope he won't do that believe me | 20:09 |
| markmcclain | dhellmann: +1 | 20:10 |
| ttx | dhellmann: frankly at this point not imposing structure sounds like a better outcome | 20:10 |
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| ttx | maybe i'm infected by Jay | 20:10 |
| zaneb | is there agreement that any new program would be to host performance benchmarking *as a service* (to operators)? | 20:10 |
| markmcclain | I know at the operators meetup there was a working session to discuss ops tooling | 20:10 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: yeah, I don't agree with Jay on the need to drop programs, but the collaboration issues we've had with this team make me hesitate at this point. | 20:10 |
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| ttx | markmcclain: nothing prevents to work on good tooling | 20:11 |
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| boris-42 | dhellmann really guys we Rally team tried to do best.. | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | zaneb: I don't know what means | 20:11 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann we even integrated tempest in rally.. | 20:11 |
| ttx | in fact I expect Rally to be more successful as it stands than into some program where we would force it to change | 20:11 |
| markmcclain | ttx: right just saying I think there is a need for ops tooling not sure that this is vehicle for it at this time | 20:11 |
| sdague | right, we need to stop thinking only good tools come out of programs. Good tools come out of people writing good tools. | 20:11 |
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| markmcclain | sdague: +1 | 20:11 |
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| dhellmann | boris-42: the problem has been with compromising with existing teams to fit in to a new niche | 20:11 |
| zaneb | dhellmann: i.e. it's something that runs in the cloud, not something you run in the gates or from your laptop | 20:12 |
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| dhellmann | zaneb: ok, I don't think that's what rally does | 20:12 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann zaneb rally does both.. | 20:12 |
| zaneb | dhellmann: I think that's boris-42's vision for it though | 20:12 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann zaneb it's easy to use + it's easy to integrated | 20:12 |
| boris-42 | so you can easily repeat locally experiment | 20:13 |
| boris-42 | that was actually idea | 20:13 |
| boris-42 | Ops guys can share their experiments | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | boris-42: "I've wrapped up your tool and reproduced parts of it" is not the same thing as integration | 20:13 |
| boris-42 | and a lot of them can be adopted for gates | 20:13 |
| boris-42 | and fixed | 20:13 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann hm okay then I don't know what is integration... | 20:14 |
| zaneb | it seems to me that now is the time to implement the architectural changes that sdague suggested. Once that is done it would be time to decide if we need a program to make that "as a Service" | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | boris-42: it is as much about the community as about the code. the rally and qa teams have been unable to work out any way to work together so far. | 20:14 |
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| boris-42 | dhellmann is this my fault? | 20:14 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann I tried since the begging | 20:15 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann they said my approach is bad.. | 20:15 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann and so what know? | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | we really don't have time to argue about rally's architecture again in this meeting | 20:15 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann it's not about architecture | 20:15 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann it's about not allowing different approach | 20:15 |
| markmc | agree, we don't have time to resolve this here now | 20:15 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann which is NO competion => no quality | 20:15 |
| markmc | there's clearly overlap that needs to be resolved | 20:16 |
| markmc | AFAICT the tempest team have been quite patient and tenacious about trying to figure out a plan | 20:16 |
| markmc | it doesn't appear to be happening | 20:16 |
| boris-42 | markmc I have a full roadmap | 20:16 |
| boris-42 | markmc about collabartion | 20:16 |
| markmc | with that resolved, I could imagine revisiting the rally program question | 20:16 |
| boris-42 | markmc nobody replied | 20:16 |
| russellb | boris-42: but there's clearly no consensus on it | 20:16 |
| ttx | if no TC member wants to get behind the A option at this point, there is little point in continuing that discussion. | 20:16 |
| boris-42 | okay guys sorry for taking too much of your time | 20:17 |
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| ttx | #topic Other governance changes | 20:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:18 | |
| ttx | Final decision on Manila: | 20:18 |
| markmc | boris-42, I think many of us are genuinely disappointed because we think what you're doing actually has a lot of promise | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | markmc: +1 | 20:18 |
| markmc | boris-42, so, no waste of our time IMO | 20:18 |
| ttx | #undo | 20:18 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x287cc50> | 20:18 |
| boris-42 | markmc dhellmann someday I hope It will be clear why we chose this hard way.. | 20:19 |
| * ttx waits for the discussion to complete | 20:19 | |
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| boris-42 | but seems it's not today =( | 20:19 |
| russellb | agree with that sentiment, i think it still does have promise | 20:19 |
| boris-42 | russellb could you at least +1 infra job | 20:19 |
| russellb | just would like to see some ongoing effort on integration and collaboration | 20:19 |
| boris-42 | russellb and at least try to use it?) | 20:19 |
| ttx | and not being a program doesn't prevent it from being used or succeeding | 20:20 |
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| russellb | ttx: absolutely | 20:20 |
| dhellmann | I certainly hope not. It sounds like there are already quite a few adopters. | 20:20 |
| boris-42 | ttx you should say that to mailing list=) cause people is afraid to use stuff from stackfroge=) | 20:20 |
| russellb | boris-42: i just want to see the integration with the nova repo sorted out, that seems pretty reasonable to me | 20:20 |
| russellb | enabling the job right now would do nothing | 20:20 |
| boris-42 | russellb so you can keep all benchmarks in nova repo | 20:20 |
| russellb | but that's not really a topic for this meeting | 20:21 |
| boris-42 | russellb if that makes sense for you | 20:21 |
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| boris-42 | russellb yep sure | 20:21 |
| ttx | boris-42: we need to fix that (people afraid from using stackforge) | 20:21 |
| * markmcclain wonders why more folks don't realize that they're already running many quality components from stackforge | 20:21 | |
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| boris-42 | ttx ya deff | 20:22 |
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| boris-42 | markmc and not only from stackforge* | 20:22 |
| ttx | i'm not sure giving every good thing a stackforge an openstack program is the solution to that problem though | 20:22 |
| ttx | some advocate the solution is actually the other way around | 20:22 |
| rmk | Is the thinking here that by effectively not supporting Rally, people will go and contribute to other OpenStack projects? Because that's not realistic at all. | 20:22 |
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| ttx | keeping some good components in stackforge to fight the "premature" reputation | 20:23 |
| rmk | We run dozens of production clouds. We're already using Rally on them. I wouldn't even consider running Tempest on them for a second. | 20:23 |
| zaneb | rmk: I agree that's not realistic, but I don't think that's the thinking | 20:23 |
| rmk | I can't understand the rationale at all here. | 20:23 |
| rmk | You want Rally to go away, why? | 20:23 |
| russellb | nobody said that. | 20:24 |
| rmk | There's no equivilent. Tempest is not. | 20:24 |
| zaneb | nobody wants it to go away | 20:24 |
| dhellmann | rmk: we do not want rally to go away. we want rally to agree to work together with other programs | 20:24 |
| russellb | we said we'd like to see a better collaboration plan | 20:24 |
| ttx | no, we just don't consider Rally to be essential to our mission at this point | 20:24 |
| russellb | not just a plan, but successful progress that everyone is happy with | 20:24 |
| markmc | rmk, but ... that is great input | 20:24 |
| russellb | i'm not speaking for everyone, but that was part of it anyway | 20:25 |
| rmk | How is everyone else validating their production environments? | 20:25 |
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| boris-42 | russellb ttx hm but there is areldy collaboration btw | 20:25 |
| boris-42 | russellb ttx with other programs.. | 20:25 |
| rmk | I'd really like to know which current OpenStack tool is being used for this. Or maybe I am doing it wrong. | 20:25 |
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| russellb | rmk: i don't think not making it an official program precludes you from continuing? | 20:25 |
| markmc | rmk, unlikely the TC has great insight into that, but we'd love to hear from more operators about the tools they use | 20:25 |
| rmk | Alright, I'll take this offline into emai. | 20:25 |
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| russellb | curious what you perceive the importance of the program is? | 20:25 |
| ttx | rmk: why are people thinking only openstack tools should be used to validate openstack tools | 20:26 |
| boris-42 | russellb I have actually | 20:26 |
| boris-42 | russellb e.g. I would like to know my scope | 20:26 |
| boris-42 | russellb and to have tempest scope | 20:26 |
| boris-42 | russellb so rally will work in own scope and me in my | 20:26 |
| rmk | ttx: OpenStack is complex and specialized enough to need its own tool for validating/benchmarking itself. | 20:26 |
| boris-42 | russellb and everything just fine.. | 20:26 |
| boris-42 | russellb and we can help each other | 20:26 |
| boris-42 | russellb whcihs is trying to do rally team already | 20:27 |
| rmk | Anyway, I'm told I am derailing the meeting which I didn't intend to do. So I can take this to another more appropriate forum. | 20:27 |
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| ttx | rmk: under the current definition, programs are to cover the integrated release, or some efforts that are considered essential to the production of the integrated release. Everything else can be in our ecosystem | 20:27 |
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| ttx | The current ruling just says that at this point, Rally is not targeted for the release itself, and is not essential to the PRODUCTION of that release | 20:28 |
| ttx | If we change that definition to include stuff that is useful to SUPPOT that release in production envs, then it would be an easier sell | 20:28 |
| ttx | SUPPORT* | 20:28 |
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| rmk | ttx: I would argue that having a toolset for validating what you've deployed, dedicated to that job, is vital for production. Otherwise, you're inevitibly going to have dozens of different home-grown tools built to validate OpenStack environments. | 20:29 |
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| boris-42 | ttx russellb markmc btw what about asking more ops what they think? | 20:29 |
| vishy | rmk: what about rally makes it better for “validation” then the tempest tests? | 20:29 |
| rmk | vishy: Tempest doesn't sufficiently clean up after itself. It barely does any cleanup. | 20:30 |
| markmc | rmk, sharing your insights on why tempest doesn't suffice would be great - genuinely useful input from operators | 20:30 |
| dhellmann | and it was easier to build a completely new tool than to work with the tempest team to fix that? | 20:30 |
| markmc | rmk, likely the approach the TC and QA program would advocate is that those issues with tempest should be addressed | 20:30 |
| markmc | dhellmann, right :) | 20:30 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann it's not the only reason... | 20:30 |
| vishy | rmk: considering the tempest tests are the requirement for the trademark it seems like it should be fixed | 20:30 |
| dhellmann | indeed | 20:31 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann there is so much and first of them is that they are using unit test framework | 20:31 |
| rmk | If I were to run Tempest in our environments, I'd end up with stranded resources all over the place. Tenants which aren't cleaned up, networks which are associated to deleted projects, etc. | 20:31 |
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| jeblair | yeah, so let's fix those | 20:31 |
| rmk | I see Tempest as more of a functional testing framework for development than I do a production validation and benchmarking suite. | 20:31 |
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| jeblair | let's also fix the openstack bugs that cause those | 20:31 |
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| jeblair | because i see those things all the time in production :) | 20:31 |
| markmcclain | jeblair: +1 | 20:31 |
| rmk | jeblair: Some of the openstack bugs in that case are architectural issues. Major ones. | 20:31 |
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| rmk | I obviously agree with fixing those. | 20:31 |
| jeblair | rmk: tell me about it :) | 20:32 |
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| ttx | OK, I think we need to move on. There is still no TC member ready to support option A, so we are far from being able to reconsider our position | 20:32 |
| rmk | Thanks for hearing me. I'll provide more thoughts on this outside the meeting. | 20:32 |
| ttx | rmk: thanks for voicing your concerns | 20:32 |
| ttx | #topic Other governance changes | 20:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:33 | |
| ttx | So, Manila... | 20:33 |
| ttx | * Propose Shared File Systems program: (https://review.openstack.org/111149) | 20:33 |
| ttx | * Propose Manila for incubation (https://review.openstack.org/113583) | 20:33 |
| ttx | Both now have majority approvals, so unless someone complains I'll approve them now | 20:33 |
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| russellb | +1 | 20:33 |
| bswartz | thanks all for the +1 votes | 20:34 |
| russellb | bswartz: thanks, just keep in mind the concerns we discussed last time, we'll be checking in on those for sure. keep up the good work :) | 20:34 |
| ttx | bswartz: congrats! | 20:34 |
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| markmcclain | ttx: should we assign TC mentor now or later? | 20:35 |
| bswartz | yay | 20:35 |
| ttx | markmcclain: we'll assign one on the Kilo TC | 20:35 |
| markmcclain | ttx: makes sense | 20:35 |
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| ttx | * Renewing ATC exceptions for Horizon (https://review.openstack.org/115697) | 20:35 |
| ttx | This is renewing extra-atc status for Horizon UX contributors | 20:35 |
| jeblair | who are awesome | 20:35 |
| ttx | It also has 7 YES, so unless someone screams now, I'll approve too | 20:36 |
| markmc | +1 added | 20:36 |
| markmc | surprising we aren't seeing more of these | 20:36 |
| * anteaya notes status update | 20:36 | |
| markmc | like, dozens more | 20:36 |
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| anteaya | it is up to the ptl to offer the extra-atcs for consideration | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | markmc: is there anyone specific you have in mind? | 20:37 |
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| russellb | markmc: indeed, might be worth reminding everyone about | 20:37 |
| annegentle | yeah how are people under the radar? can we tune our radar further? | 20:37 |
| jeblair | yeah, i'm not above nudging people in case there's just been an oversight | 20:37 |
| russellb | annegentle: maybe something for the blog update (reminding that special ATC consideration is available) | 20:37 |
| markmc | yeah, I just thought of one in particular | 20:37 |
| ttx | but but but, it's written in the charter! | 20:37 |
| annegentle | (hm, tune, radar, not sure about that) | 20:37 |
| markmc | will follow up, don't want to mention here | 20:37 |
| ttx | everyone reads it, right | 20:37 |
| annegentle | russellb: good one | 20:37 |
| jeblair | i have it under my pillow | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | ttx: every night before I go to bed | 20:37 |
| annegentle | as a sleeping aid | 20:37 |
| ttx | annegentle: remember you're up for the TC activity next blogpost | 20:38 |
| annegentle | ayup, got a draft started | 20:38 |
| anteaya | ttx you and I read the charter, and folks posting to the ml | 20:38 |
| annegentle | publish this week I guess? | 20:38 |
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| annegentle | since we were awaiting manila? | 20:38 |
| ttx | annegentle: sure, I think we have enough material now | 20:38 |
| annegentle | ok | 20:38 |
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| ttx | * Add repository glance.store to glance (https://review.openstack.org/107585) | 20:38 |
| ttx | This one is still blocked by markwash's standing -1 | 20:38 |
| ttx | hmm, no longer | 20:39 |
| ttx | so I guess it's good to go too | 20:39 |
| markmc | wow, you're like over 12 hours out of date there ttx | 20:39 |
| vishy | btw I have an extra item for open discussion if there is time | 20:39 |
| markmc | unprecedented | 20:39 |
| annegentle | heh | 20:39 |
| * markmc teases | 20:39 | |
| ttx | I blame markwash's skipping the 1:1 sync today | 20:40 |
| jeblair | nice redirect | 20:40 |
| russellb | he did what?! | 20:40 |
| dhellmann | nice delegation of responsibility there :-) | 20:40 |
| * russellb changes to -1 | 20:40 | |
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| ttx | jeblair: I'm 303. | 20:40 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:41 | |
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| ttx | There will be a TC/Defcore call on Thursday at 1800 UTC | 20:41 |
| zaneb | bring popcorn | 20:41 |
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| ttx | where TC members are invited to give their individual feedback to the proposed designated sections | 20:41 |
| ttx | zehicle: a short word on that? | 20:42 |
| russellb | zehicle_at_dell is who announced himself as present earlier, but that zehicle just dropped | 20:42 |
| markmc | vishy, your item? | 20:42 |
| ttx | The "Requirements for new projects added to existing programs" thread resulted in a governance review being posted, so we can continue the discussion there: | 20:43 |
| ttx | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116727/ | 20:43 |
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| ttx | Since we have some time left, we could discuss the issues with programs, unless someone has something more urgent | 20:43 |
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| markmcclain | ttx: also have this which is related for new Neutron repo: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/117000/ | 20:43 |
| markmc | <vishy> btw I have an extra item for open discussion if there is time | 20:44 |
| * markmc intrigued :) | 20:44 | |
| ttx | ok, let's do that first, since you snatched a round number | 20:44 |
| russellb | hehe | 20:44 |
| * russellb stares at vishy | 20:44 | |
| vishy | ah | 20:44 |
| jeblair | markmcclain: i've been reading https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Incubator and i have some concerns | 20:44 |
| vishy | so this is a general topic I would like the tc to think about | 20:44 |
| jeblair | markmcclain: maybe it should be a thread or meeting topic? | 20:44 |
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| markmcclain | jeblair: sure would also be happy to catch up with you offline too | 20:45 |
| ttx | markmcclain: will be discussed next meeting, not aged enough | 20:45 |
| vishy | http://www.trinimbus.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/image001.png | 20:45 |
| vishy | i will just introduce it here | 20:45 |
| markmcclain | ttx: right just wanted to make everyone aware it was there | 20:45 |
| vishy | and maybe we can have a discussion about it in a futrue meeting | 20:45 |
| vishy | so the above link shows the aws services | 20:45 |
| ttx | some of them, at least | 20:45 |
| vishy | in general I think openstack is directing too much energy in the wrong direction | 20:46 |
| vishy | trying to make Everything-As-A-Service | 20:46 |
| zehicle | ttx, sorry, back again | 20:46 |
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| vishy | IMO aaS model only works at large scale i.e. production clouds | 20:46 |
| vishy | and I think a lot of our time would be better spent on focusing on how to build solid reusable components | 20:46 |
| zaneb | vishy: I think you're indulging in a conservation-of-energy fallacy | 20:47 |
| vishy | which is much more appropriate for small private clouds | 20:47 |
| zehicle | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DefCoreLighthouse.6 | 20:47 |
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| vishy | zaneb: our incentive structure is totally built on new aaS offerings | 20:47 |
| annegentle | zaneb: I believe in abundance but I think vishy is pointing out the public/private motivations | 20:47 |
| vishy | in other words the only way to get recognition in our community is to build an as a service | 20:47 |
| vishy | which has lead to a number of problems which we have discussed recently | 20:48 |
| vishy | 1) Marconi | 20:48 |
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| vishy | 2) Rally | 20:48 |
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| anteaya | vishy has a point after listening to jogo's assessment of mesos | 20:48 |
| zaneb | vishy: I tend to agree, but I don't agree that all those people would e.g. go fix Neutron bugs if we had different incentives | 20:48 |
| jogo | I think sdague summed it up well in: https://dague.net/2014/08/26/openstack-as-layers/ | 20:48 |
| ttx | vishy: so what's the right direction? | 20:48 |
| vishy | we don’t have a decent way for people to collaborate on components | 20:48 |
| sdague | vishy: so, interestingly enough, I wrote up something maybe similar this morning https://dague.net/2014/08/26/openstack-as-layers/ | 20:48 |
| vishy | zaneb, ttx: that is true | 20:48 |
| markmc | vishy, the only way to get recognition is to start a new program? that's an odd statement | 20:48 |
| sdague | oh, jogo beat me to it | 20:48 |
| jogo | sdague: sorry for stealing your thunder | 20:49 |
| vishy | but if we had a way for people to build a queuing component instead of a service | 20:49 |
| vishy | maybe it would be more valuable | 20:49 |
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| russellb | oslo.messaging? | 20:49 |
| russellb | i'm honestly not sure what you're saying | 20:49 |
| zehicle | jogo | 20:49 |
| markmc | yeah, what's a queueing component? | 20:49 |
| ttx | vishy: i'm not sure I get the distinction between component and service | 20:49 |
| russellb | is it just "we have too many projects" ? | 20:49 |
| vishy | my layers are a little different | 20:49 |
| markmc | does it have a REST API? | 20:50 |
| vishy | but yeah that is roughly the idea | 20:50 |
| vishy | markmc: that is the point it does not | 20:50 |
| vishy | rest api is for a service | 20:50 |
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| vishy | i.e. people could collaborate on heat templates for example | 20:50 |
| zaneb | vishy: so these components... you'd spin them up on Nova servers, right? | 20:50 |
| vishy | i worry that people are essentially going to jump ship and go to the docker ecosystem for this part of the stack | 20:51 |
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| vishy | zaneb: potentially | 20:51 |
| markmc | so, heat templates for provisioning VMs to run RabbitMQ is the preferable solution to those building applications in private clouds? | 20:51 |
| markmc | (honestly trying to summarize) | 20:51 |
| vishy | markmc: I believe so | 20:51 |
| markmc | vishy, on what basis? | 20:51 |
| markmc | vishy, that we can't build a good enough service? | 20:51 |
| vishy | markmc: the point is that every private cloud company can’t have a person or people to manage an as a service offering | 20:51 |
| vishy | markmc: not if we are building 100s of them | 20:52 |
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| zaneb | vishy: as I mentioned on the list, that scales at very coarse granularity | 20:52 |
| markmc | ah, ok - so insufficient return on the investment in operating that service | 20:52 |
| markmc | interesting | 20:52 |
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| vishy | markmc: this is just food for thought at the moment | 20:52 |
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| markmc | versus, it's fine to have each application operator essentially operate their own queue | 20:52 |
| * ttx likes the markmc direct translation | 20:52 | |
| vishy | i don’t really have answers but it occurs to me that we are all racing to match amazon’s services | 20:52 |
| markmc | vishy, sure, I'm just trying to tease it out | 20:52 |
| vishy | when that may not be the best option | 20:52 |
| zaneb | OpenStack is not just for private clouds though. It's for private *and* public clouds, and moving workloads between them | 20:52 |
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| jeblair | yes, but i'm not sure it's okay to have each public operator _create_ their own queue | 20:53 |
| russellb | noting that a VM running rabbit is far from the same thing as a simple queue rest API | 20:53 |
| vishy | markmc: it boils down to who is responsible for mgmt of the component/service | 20:53 |
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| vishy | i would argue in a small deploy it is the application that is using the queue that needs to manage it | 20:53 |
| vishy | i.e. their team | 20:53 |
| markmc | vishy, if there's lots of apps needing queueing, hard to see that its not worthwhile operating infrastructure for them all to share | 20:53 |
| ttx | I still think some key IaaS+ services (like DBaaS) still make sense, but could belong to Sean's layer 4 alright | 20:53 |
| vishy | because Joe Company can’t have a queue service management team | 20:53 |
| russellb | we obviously target large deploys too, though | 20:54 |
| jogo | vishy: I take offense to that :) | 20:54 |
| ttx | vishy: so you're advocating both for a smaller core and diversification at the workload level | 20:54 |
| vishy | russellb: yes I think the services should still be done | 20:54 |
| vishy | for hp rax etc. | 20:54 |
| russellb | vishy: ah, ok | 20:54 |
| jeblair | vishy: so is within the openstack project an appropriate place for public operators to collaborate on those services? | 20:54 |
| vishy | but on the other hand if they only apply to a subset of the community I’m not sure that they need to be “official” openstack | 20:54 |
| ttx | vishy: but should clearly be out of the ahem. core? | 20:55 |
| annegentle | or integrated openstack? | 20:55 |
| vishy | they could be openstack-adden-services | 20:55 |
| vishy | *addon | 20:55 |
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| russellb | of course, the reason we brought them in is because wanted to encourage collaboration | 20:55 |
| zaneb | for the record, I want queues so that *openstack* services (like Heat) can depend on them to interact with the user | 20:55 |
| russellb | and an official program/project seemed like the way to do that | 20:55 |
| russellb | i'd not want to lose sight of that goal | 20:55 |
| jeblair | vishy: we didn't really get them to collaborate until they became official in some manner. i think retaining that feature is useful | 20:56 |
| russellb | jeblair: ++ | 20:56 |
| vishy | sure sure | 20:56 |
| jeblair | though i'm otherwise very inclined to agree that running a queue service is not something every (private) cloud needs to do :) | 20:56 |
| vishy | I don’t think a wholehearted change is required | 20:56 |
| vishy | but encouraging collaboration around components and not doing everything as a service could be valuable too | 20:56 |
| sdague | jeblair: so I think that was true a couple years ago. But I actually think we're seeing tons of collaboration now outside of just "official" openstack projects | 20:56 |
| vishy | so mostly I just wanted to bring it up for people to think about | 20:57 |
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| ttx | vishy: I'm with you that it shoul dbe limited to building blocks, like databases or queues. It took me a while to consider MapReduce (Sahara) a basic building block tbh | 20:57 |
| ttx | I think we were crossing the line there | 20:58 |
| anteaya | I think it is good to have the conversation | 20:58 |
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| jogo | I see this as the: 'big tent/big ecosystem' debate | 20:58 |
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| zaneb | sdague: IMO incubation is the biggest lever we have to convince people to develop stuff as open source rather than proprietary | 20:58 |
| ttx | jogo: with a vishy twist on it though | 20:58 |
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| ttx | It's definitely our next big debate | 20:58 |
| sdague | zaneb: honestly, I think the playing field has changed | 20:58 |
| jeblair | ttx: it was also our last big debate | 20:58 |
| sdague | with docker, cloudfoundry, mesos, kubernertes | 20:59 |
| anteaya | zaneb: sometimes forcing people to develop open source can create its own dragons | 20:59 |
| ttx | jeblair: we did have a few debates about other things, didn't we? | 20:59 |
| markmcclain | zaneb: that's a bit concerning if we have to classify something for incubation to get folks to develop in the open | 20:59 |
| ttx | ooook, I think we can continue that discussion on other forums | 21:00 |
| annegentle | zaneb: but that statement just sounds like we're trying to get them to use our system which is as lock-in-ish as proprietary | 21:00 |
| ttx | but yes, there is a debate about the size of the tent | 21:00 |
| ttx | our time for today is up | 21:00 |
| ttx | thanks vishy! | 21:00 |
| david-lyle | but they're using OpenStack too, for a commitment of support | 21:00 |
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| vishy | np | 21:00 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:00 | |
| david-lyle | ongoing development | 21:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 26 21:00:48 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-08-26-20.01.html | 21:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-08-26-20.01.txt | 21:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-08-26-20.01.log.html | 21:00 |
| ttx | dhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, eglynn, markwash, jgriffith, mikal, zaneb, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov: around ? | 21:01 |
| mestery | \o/ | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:01 |
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| david-lyle | o/ | 21:01 |
| dolphm | o/ | 21:01 |
| gordc | o/ | 21:01 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 21:01 |
| zaneb | o/ | 21:01 |
| ttx | #startmeeting project | 21:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 26 21:01:52 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:01 | |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 21:01 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'project' | 21:01 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting | 21:02 |
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| jgriffith | 0/ | 21:02 |
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| ttx | #topic News from the 1:1 sync points | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "News from the 1:1 sync points (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:02 | |
| ttx | Here is the log: | 21:02 |
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| ttx | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2014/ptl_sync.2014-08-26-08.14.html | 21:02 |
| ttx | Only Glance was MIA today | 21:03 |
| ttx | In summary, juno-3 and feature freeze will hit most projects next week | 21:03 |
| ttx | That means we have only 9 days to merge the remaining targeted features | 21:03 |
| * mestery notes hit is not necessarily a figurative term | 21:03 | |
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| ttx | We are at about 15% of targets landed right now, and 80% of our juno-3 time is consumed | 21:04 |
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| ttx | so let's just say we raelly need to switch gears | 21:04 |
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| ttx | (to reach icehouse activity level we need to reach 80% of those targets :) | 21:04 |
| * dolphm makes a sacrifice to the transient failure gods | 21:04 | |
| ttx | (by some weird simplistic metric) | 21:04 |
| * mestery tosses one on after dolphm. | 21:05 | |
| ttx | We identified a few blocked things, which we'll discuss in this meeting | 21:05 |
| dolphm | ttx: keystone is unblocked! | 21:05 |
| ttx | cool | 21:06 |
| ttx | dolphm: now get that feature merged :) | 21:06 |
| ttx | #topic Other program news | 21:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other program news (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:06 | |
| ttx | Any other program with a quick announcement ? | 21:06 |
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| mtreinish | ttx: well last week I forgot to announce that salv-orlando got the neutron parallel full gate enabled everywhere | 21:06 |
| mtreinish | which is awesome | 21:06 |
| mestery | mtreinish: ++, awesome work by salv-orlando! | 21:06 |
| mestery | And the QA team | 21:07 |
| david-lyle | excellent | 21:07 |
| mestery | Neutron is proceeding with the incubator proposal for new features, we should have it up and running this week yet. | 21:07 |
| jogo | mestery: where will neutron advanced services (FWaaS etc.) fit in to that | 21:07 |
| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Incubator | 21:08 |
| mestery | jogo: That's still under discussion, it's been talked about possibly moving them there, but not right away at least. | 21:08 |
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| mestery | jogo: So, stay tuned :) | 21:08 |
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| ttx | ok, anything else ? | 21:09 |
| ttx | jeblair: how is the gate holding so far ? | 21:09 |
| ttx | jeblair: despite all my efforts to stage the review activity, it still looks like we'll have a heavy week ahead | 21:09 |
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| jogo | mestery: thanks | 21:11 |
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| jogo | ttx: we are experiencing lots of unit test issues: http://jogo.github.io/gate/ (at the bottom) | 21:11 |
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| ttx | unit tests ? thats a new one | 21:12 |
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| jogo | ttx: yeah sadly it is | 21:12 |
| ttx | any reason for the surge? | 21:13 |
| zaneb | the magic random hash, one assumes | 21:13 |
| mtreinish | ttx: I think it was a new testtools version breaking glance | 21:13 |
| dolphm | jogo: is that keystone or trove? colors are nearly the same | 21:13 |
| jogo | those things happened a few days ago so not sure | 21:13 |
| sdague | the freshness checks were also turned off | 21:14 |
| jogo | well here arethe unclassified gate failures: http://status.openstack.org/elastic-recheck/data/uncategorized.html | 21:14 |
| sdague | I think the 24hr freshness check probably should come back | 21:14 |
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| dolphm | sdague: ++ why was that removed? | 21:14 |
| SergeyLukjanov | for sahara there was an issue w/ new jsonschema release (in unit tests) | 21:14 |
| ttx | sdague: hmm, so avoidable unit test fails are back too | 21:14 |
| SlickNik | ttx: the upgrade to tox caused the hashseed value to be set randomly, and that was causing the python-26 tests to fail in trove. | 21:14 |
| jogo | sdague: yeah that may be related. can we just bring back unit test freshness? | 21:14 |
| ttx | I've seena number of changes pushed to bypass that though... aren't they merged by now? | 21:15 |
| sdague | jogo: or drop unit tests from the gate :) | 21:15 |
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| sdague | which I wanted to do 8 months ago | 21:15 |
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| SlickNik | ttx: we've got a fix in place to work around that, but are also looking at fixing the problematic tests as a high pri. | 21:15 |
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| sdague | dolphm: so the theory was that people shouldn't have massively flakey unit tests.... because they are unit tests, so it shouldn't be an issue | 21:15 |
| SlickNik | ttx: yes merged now. | 21:15 |
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| dolphm | sdague: theory! | 21:16 |
| ttx | sdague, jogo: ok, let me know if there is anything I can do, or anything this particular meeting could help with | 21:16 |
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| jogo | ttx: people can classify there unclassified failures | 21:16 |
| jogo | http://status.openstack.org/elastic-recheck/data/uncategorized.html | 21:16 |
| jogo | ttx: so we have better insight into what is failing and why | 21:17 |
| ttx | #action everyone help classify gate fails (http://status.openstack.org/elastic-recheck/data/uncategorized.html) | 21:17 |
| ttx | jogo: I'll try to give it some of my remaining cycles tomorrow | 21:17 |
| jogo | if anyone needs help I will be in -qa | 21:17 |
| ttx | If we enter the week of death with a gate that has a cold, we won't be in good shape. | 21:17 |
| dolphm | jogo: how do people go about classifying something? | 21:17 |
| jogo | sdague: I think bringing back the 24 hour check (or maybe just a 72 hour or something) is a good idea right now | 21:18 |
| anteaya | an email to the mailing list often helps with classifying failures | 21:18 |
| jogo | dolphm: elastic-recheck fingerprints | 21:18 |
| anteaya | who wants to send the email? | 21:18 |
| sdague | jogo: the 24hr check before entering the gate is the one that protects the gate | 21:18 |
| sdague | the 72 hr check probably just eats nodes | 21:18 |
| jeblair | sorry, was afk | 21:19 |
| jeblair | sdague: is there evidence the 24h check would help? | 21:19 |
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| sdague | jeblair: rigorous? no. I've just seen a few wrecking balls when I've looked on stuff that can't pass the gate | 21:19 |
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| sdague | those add a lot of time on the gate side | 21:19 |
| jeblair | sdague: previously when we've looked, we have not found gate failures that would have been prevented by the 24h check | 21:19 |
| jogo | ttx: 'gate' health: http://status.openstack.org/elastic-recheck/index.html | 21:19 |
| jeblair | sdague: because we still have the requirement for a +1 before entering the gate | 21:20 |
| dolphm | jogo: does 'recheck bug ###' still count towards classifications? | 21:20 |
| jogo | ttx: if anyone knows javascript I have a few ideas for that page to make it more useful | 21:20 |
| sdague | jeblair: the thing I called people out on the list about for glance would have | 21:20 |
| jogo | dolphm: no, you have to add a fingerprint | 21:20 |
| dolphm | s/still// | 21:20 |
| sdague | jeblair: so I think we're probably just looking at different times | 21:20 |
| jeblair | sdague: yes, but they have agreed to a procedural change for that | 21:20 |
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| ttx | ok, looks like we could use a quick email reminding/teaching people how to classify | 21:20 |
| sdague | jeblair: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-August/043810.html | 21:21 |
| jogo | ttx: I can send one out | 21:21 |
| dolphm | jogo: is there any point to anything beyond just 'recheck' anymore? | 21:21 |
| jogo | dolphm: yes, we don't collect the data on a regular basis but yes. | 21:21 |
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| sdague | jeblair: yeh, I think people mostly don't realize that's what they are doing. Anyway, if you don't feel it would help, I'm not going to push it | 21:22 |
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| jogo | adding a bug number shows you know what the issue is, and aren't just ignoring things | 21:22 |
| jogo | dolphm: you can now say any reason after the word recehck | 21:22 |
| dolphm | jogo: good to know | 21:23 |
| jogo | like 'recheck -- I have a hunch something else just broke this' | 21:23 |
| jeblair | sdague: the thing that would convince me is a change that passed > 24 hours ago but reliably failed < 24 hours ago getting into the gate | 21:23 |
| sdague | right, that glance stuff was that | 21:23 |
| jogo | but bare rechecks send the social message that you don't know why it failed and don't care | 21:23 |
| jeblair | sdague: i realize that the tox switch could do that ^ and likely happened with glance | 21:23 |
| jogo | IMHO) | 21:23 |
| jeblair | sdague: but we don't globally break tox every day :) | 21:23 |
| ttx | OK, let's move on... but yes, any extra effort to get the gate back in shape in this crucial week is very appreciated | 21:23 |
| ttx | #topic juno-3 blueprints blocked on cross-project issues | 21:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "juno-3 blueprints blocked on cross-project issues (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:24 | |
| sdague | jeblair: sure | 21:24 |
| ttx | I think the only one we ahve left at this point is: | 21:24 |
| ttx | * ceilometer/grenade-resource-survivability | 21:24 |
| ttx | Blocked pending discussion between jogo and Chris Dent | 21:24 |
| gordc | i've synced with jogo about this before the meeting. | 21:24 |
| ttx | ah, great | 21:24 |
| gordc | patch can be tracked here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102354/ | 21:24 |
| ttx | gordc: so it's unblocked now ? | 21:25 |
| gordc | basically we just need feedback for the patch since cdent (dev working on implementation) is sort of unsure how to proceed | 21:25 |
| gordc | ttx: somewhat | 21:25 |
| gordc | jogo. i think cdent posted a question to your reply in gerrit | 21:25 |
| ttx | gordc: note that if this is just touching tests, it's fine to land post-FF | 21:26 |
| jogo | gordc: I'l take a look | 21:26 |
| ttx | (pre-RC1) | 21:26 |
| gordc | ttx: good to know. | 21:26 |
| gordc | it should just be touching tests... but i'm not sure how much the scope will change. | 21:26 |
| ttx | if it can be completed for j3, all the better, but if not, it can automatically be targeted to RC1 | 21:27 |
| ttx | #topic Packaging for functional tests (zaneb) | 21:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Packaging for functional tests (zaneb) (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:27 | |
| gordc | i'm not that familiar with grenade/javelin stuff myself so i'm pretty useless there... if anyone has knowledge it'd be cool if we got your opinion. :) | 21:27 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-August/044072.html | 21:27 |
| ttx | zaneb: around? | 21:27 |
| zaneb | yep | 21:27 |
| ttx | Floor is yours | 21:27 |
| zaneb | was pasting the #link, but you beat me to it ;) | 21:27 |
| jogo | gordc: responded | 21:27 |
| zaneb | stevebaker: o/ | 21:27 |
| gordc | jogo: awesome. much appreciated | 21:28 |
| zaneb | so, basically it's all in that email | 21:28 |
| jogo | sdague: it would be good to get your thoughts on it too https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102354/ | 21:28 |
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| stevebaker | zaneb: \o | 21:28 |
| zaneb | but we're looking for a consensus on how the new in-project functional tests should be packaged | 21:28 |
| sdague | zaneb: so I think the disconnect is around the idea that these are tempest plugins | 21:28 |
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| sdague | because that's really not what was intended | 21:28 |
| zaneb | input from folks who already have in-tree functional tests on that thread would be helpful | 21:28 |
| sdague | I don't see tempest having anything to do with these tests | 21:29 |
| zaneb | sdague: interesting | 21:29 |
| stevebaker | I just replied that thread. tl;dr +1 on zaneb's suggestion of <project>-integrationtests package | 21:29 |
| sdague | this is project functional testing | 21:29 |
| zaneb | the tests we want to add in Heat are basically the scenario tests we haven't been able to land in Tempest | 21:29 |
| zaneb | as far as I understand it | 21:29 |
| stevebaker | sdague: agreed, but because of the nature of heat our functional tests are really integration tests. All we do is interact with other services | 21:30 |
| zaneb | so it may be that this is a different thing to what everyone else is doing | 21:30 |
| sdague | right, it might be | 21:30 |
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| zaneb | which I guess is basically the question I am asking in that thread | 21:30 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I expect the functional tests for oslo.messaging to not rely on other services, for example | 21:30 |
| mestery | These sound different than the neutron functional tests | 21:30 |
| mestery | The neutron ones functionally test out bits that neutron relies on, but no other openstack services are required to my knowledge. | 21:31 |
| mestery | e.g. ip commands, ovs-vsctl, etc. | 21:31 |
| stevebaker | I think the swift functional tests run against a full running swift (needs keystone?) but swift would be self-contained so they could still be considered functional | 21:32 |
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| stevebaker | notmyname: ^? | 21:32 |
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| zaneb | so if we're the only project with this kind of tests, I'm happy to do our own thing | 21:34 |
| stevebaker | sdague: the heat functional tests are independent of tempest, they have forklifted some of the tempest scenario scaffolding just to get started | 21:34 |
| zaneb | I don't want to do our own thing just for the sake of it though | 21:34 |
| jeblair | if the other projects are actually running, then it's an integration test | 21:35 |
| sdague | zaneb / stevebaker - I think the challenge is heat's a weird starting point for defining this because it is so far up the stack | 21:35 |
| zaneb | sdague: agreed | 21:35 |
| jeblair | and i think all of the thinking about how functional tests can be optimized doesn't apply | 21:35 |
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| stevebaker | yep | 21:35 |
| sdague | zaneb: so I'd say given that, you guys should run with whatever works for you | 21:36 |
| stevebaker | and I do see check-heat-dsvm-functional becoming a voting job on nova, keystone, neutron so that it doesn't break all the time | 21:36 |
| ttx | zaneb: looks like you reached a conclusion there | 21:37 |
| sdague | stevebaker: so the point is to *not* do that | 21:37 |
| zaneb | cool, thanks everyone | 21:37 |
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| sdague | if you depend on certain behavior in those projects, that should be locked down inside that project | 21:37 |
| sdague | not by lots of more cross project tests | 21:37 |
| sdague | because that's the scaling issue we are trying to address | 21:37 |
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| stevebaker | sdague: we may need to wait and see how often it breaks. I guess regressions require a new tempest test to prevent a repeat | 21:38 |
| jeblair | sdague: this is the "nova has a unit test that it doesn't break heat's use of some api" idea | 21:38 |
| sdague | jeblair: exactly | 21:38 |
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| sdague | if you depend on a behavior in a component, and they keep breaking it, put some tests in the project to stop that :) | 21:39 |
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| jeblair | sdague: so should we run the heat functional tests with everything running for real, but only gate heat on it, and when it breaks, fix it and add a unit test in the other project? | 21:39 |
| zaneb | I think it's unlikely that Nova &c. will break us that often | 21:39 |
| sdague | jeblair: that's an option | 21:40 |
| stevebaker | does check-heat-dsvm-functional need to be renamed -integration? (please no ;) | 21:40 |
| sdague | stevebaker: I vote no :) | 21:40 |
| zaneb | jeblair: that's what I'm thinking | 21:40 |
| jeblair | sdague: or should heat run with nova, etc mocked out? | 21:40 |
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| jeblair | sdague: (trying to understand what the other options would be) | 21:40 |
| sdague | jeblair: so those are the 2 options | 21:40 |
| stevebaker | jeblair: we need to test heat<-> agent interaction, so nova needs to keep it real | 21:41 |
| sdague | I'm not sure if we're going to know which is more effective in catching and resolving issues until we try | 21:41 |
| zaneb | I actually think we need both | 21:41 |
| stevebaker | jeblair: fake virt driver will be useful for scale tests though | 21:41 |
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| zaneb | I would like to test with e.g. induced failures | 21:42 |
| zaneb | but we also need to spin VMs to check we can talk to the agents on them | 21:42 |
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| sdague | this is something I'm going to be experimenting with nova over the next couple of weeks | 21:42 |
| sdague | zaneb: so maybe you've got a couple of types here | 21:42 |
| zaneb | yes, some functional and some integration | 21:42 |
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| stevebaker | I tried killing nova-api to test heat resilience, but nova went into an unrecoverable state ;) | 21:43 |
| sdague | because it's not clear to me if having a fake glance or a real glance (which honestly basically never fails) is better | 21:43 |
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| sdague | stevebaker: interesting, because I kill and restart nova-api all the time in devstack, and it's fine :) | 21:44 |
| zaneb | we'll need the real glance artifact repo when it comes out | 21:44 |
| jeblair | sdague: yeah, and i think we've been seeing both patterns as people start working on func test jobs | 21:44 |
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| sdague | jeblair: agreed | 21:44 |
| stevebaker | sdague: during server boot? I think I ended up with an undeletable server | 21:44 |
| jeblair | sdague: i think neutron may run nothing else, swift runs everything (but probably uses nothing else) | 21:44 |
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| sdague | stevebaker: there are tons of ways to get undeletable servers :) | 21:45 |
| sdague | stevebaker: anyway, yes, functional jobs should make fault injection something that's more managable to start doing | 21:45 |
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| stevebaker | yep | 21:46 |
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| zaneb | ok, so we should set up both functional tests that mock out the services and integration tests that run against all of devstack | 21:46 |
| sdague | so I'd say right now feel free to carve you own path, and lets work to converge on working patterns in the middle of kilo when we have more experience | 21:46 |
| sdague | because I'm really hesitant to say "do it thusly" until we have more experience | 21:47 |
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| zaneb | cool, many thanks sdague & jeblair for your input | 21:48 |
| ttx | alright | 21:48 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 21:48 |
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| ttx | anything anyone ? | 21:48 |
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| ttx | new feedback on the czar^Wliaison proposal ? | 21:49 |
| jeblair | ttx: to add a data point on the earlier gate status topic: the waiting jobs queue touched 0 last night; so we're working through 1 days worth of changes in approx 1 day | 21:49 |
| ttx | I'll likely propose that delegation (if deemed necessary) is indicated on the main project wiki page | 21:49 |
| ttx | that's easier than a governance patch | 21:50 |
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| ttx | jeblair: ok, not too bad. Expect load to grow though. I expect a peak on Thursday and Tuesday | 21:50 |
| ttx | that's using my meteorological model | 21:50 |
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| zaneb | ttx: +1 for wiki, but maybe they should be all in one big matrix? | 21:51 |
| zaneb | rather than on individual program pages | 21:51 |
| ttx | zaneb: hmm, yes, that could prove easier | 21:51 |
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| jeblair | also, if anyone has a public cloud laying around, i'll be happy to use it :) | 21:51 |
| * ttx looks in his closet | 21:51 | |
| jeblair | ping me and i'll send you info | 21:51 |
| zaneb | ttx: we'll soon see who has empty columns that way ;) | 21:51 |
| ttx | jeblair: i'm renewing my thinkpad, if you want my old one | 21:52 |
| ttx | jeblair: it has a SSD, as fast as on day 1 | 21:52 |
| jeblair | ttx: i think i might want it just for parts :) | 21:52 |
| ttx | don't scare my laptop, the new one is still on some boat from Hong-Kong | 21:52 |
| ttx | if I'm to trust UPS | 21:53 |
| jeblair | "if" indeed :) | 21:53 |
| ttx | mor probably in some labs in west virginia | 21:53 |
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| ttx | ok, unless someone has something to add... | 21:53 |
| ttx | let's close this now | 21:54 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:54 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 26 21:54:33 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:54 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-08-26-21.01.html | 21:54 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-08-26-21.01.txt | 21:54 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-08-26-21.01.log.html | 21:54 |
| ttx | thanks everyone! | 21:54 |
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| SlickNik | Thanks ttx! | 21:55 |
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