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| trinaths | Hi | 08:00 |
|---|---|---|
| anteaya | #startmeeting third-party | 08:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 16 08:00:03 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 08:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 08:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 08:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 08:00 |
| anteaya | hello trinaths | 08:00 |
| trinaths | hi anteaya | 08:00 |
| jhesketh | Howdy | 08:00 |
| anteaya | hey jhesketh | 08:00 |
| anteaya | anyone else here for the third-party meeting? | 08:01 |
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| anteaya | heyongli jyuso are you about? | 08:01 |
| sarob | whos here for the ambassador meeting? | 08:01 |
| jyuso | anteaya: hello | 08:01 |
| nuritv | anteaya: Hi | 08:02 |
| heyongli | hi, anteaya , hi | 08:02 |
| anteaya | hello all | 08:02 |
| trinaths | hi all | 08:02 |
| mrmartin | sarob I guess we need to move the ambassador meeting to #openstack-meeting-3 | 08:02 |
| jyuso | hi,everyone | 08:02 |
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| anteaya | so as we are just getting our group started and getting to know each other, right now we don't have an agenda | 08:03 |
| anteaya | does anyone have a place which they would like to begin? | 08:03 |
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| trinaths | I have some doubts in CI. | 08:03 |
| nuritv | anteaya: yes, just want to get attention the a review by omrim for FAQ | 08:03 |
| anteaya | great | 08:04 |
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| anteaya | who wants to go first? | 08:04 |
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| nuritv | trinaths: go ahead | 08:04 |
| trinaths | nuritv: thank you. | 08:04 |
| anteaya | Murad: there you are | 08:04 |
| Murad | yes I am | 08:04 |
| Murad | Hi everybody | 08:04 |
| jyuso | hi Murad | 08:05 |
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| anteaya | trinaths: okay so whenever you are ready | 08:06 |
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| trinaths | I installed CI wil jaypipes documentation. In the CI Jenkins node, there are several git repos. and the same repos are existing with in the job nodes. Zuul-merger updates with the commit. how is that updated commit trasfered to job node? | 08:06 |
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| anteaya | okay good question | 08:07 |
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| trinaths | typo error: transfered | 08:07 |
| anteaya | does anyone have a response to trinaths' question? | 08:07 |
| jhesketh | trinaths: the zuul-merger reports back a ref to zuul that is then passed to the job | 08:08 |
| jhesketh | so zuul then requests a worker to do a job with these params: http://ci.openstack.org/zuul/launchers.html#zuul-parameters | 08:08 |
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| jhesketh | the Jenkins gearman plugin exposes those params as environment variables | 08:08 |
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| jhesketh | the gerrit-git-prep.sh script looks for those params and sets up a working directory for the test | 08:09 |
| trinaths | jhesketh: okay. | 08:09 |
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| trinaths | then why a git checkout is required in jenkins node? | 08:10 |
| trinaths | i mean the master node | 08:10 |
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| jhesketh | trinaths: hmm, it should only be the slave node.. but I don't run Jenkins so I'm not sure | 08:10 |
| jhesketh | my best guess is that it's not needed and there from a legacy setup | 08:10 |
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| trinaths | jhesketh: okay. I will refer again. | 08:11 |
| jhesketh | sorry I haven't got a specific answer there | 08:11 |
| trinaths | jhesketh: I missed to answer you | 08:12 |
| anteaya | trinaths: do you need anything more here? | 08:13 |
| anteaya | or is it nuritv's turn? | 08:13 |
| trinaths | anteaya: no. I have a que [2] When ever a job is trigger, devstack-gate updates all the projects, like, nova, neutron, cinder etc.. | 08:14 |
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| trinaths | this takes more time for the actual build to hapen and the test to run. How to simplify this? any suggestions | 08:14 |
| anteaya | trinaths: shall we let nuritv have a turn? | 08:14 |
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| trinaths | anteaya: yes. Please go ahead | 08:15 |
| anteaya | thank you | 08:15 |
| anteaya | nuritv: let's hear from you now please | 08:15 |
| nuritv | anteaya: thanks. i have several issues i would like to raise :) | 08:15 |
| * anteaya listens | 08:16 | |
| nuritv | first of all, i would like to get everyone attention to the FAQ section by omrim | 08:16 |
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| nuritv | there is still alot to do, but any more reviews will be helpful | 08:16 |
| nuritv | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/141817/3 | 08:16 |
| anteaya | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/141817/3 | 08:16 |
| anteaya | thank you to omrim for offering this patch | 08:17 |
| anteaya | pleia2 gave a pretty through review | 08:17 |
| nuritv | so, if anyone has other FAQ that are worth mentioning - please post a comment | 08:18 |
| nuritv | anteaya: yes, we all keep learning :) | 08:18 |
| anteaya | :D | 08:18 |
| nuritv | anteaya: can i continue to the next topic? | 08:18 |
| anteaya | oh yes | 08:19 |
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| nuritv | thanks. so, i am concern about the big change happening on Neutron (spliiting the plugins), and wonder how it is going to affect CI and what we should do in advance | 08:20 |
| anteaya | that is a good question | 08:20 |
| anteaya | I don't think there is anyone here from Neutron right now | 08:20 |
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| anteaya | so I will go ahead and respond to that one | 08:20 |
| anteaya | I don't know exactly how the plugin split will affect CI systems | 08:21 |
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| anteaya | however I was at the Neutron mid-cycle when the advanced services were split out | 08:21 |
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| anteaya | and the immediate effect of that split was that all CIs that tested advanced services were suggested to turn themselves off until the new advanced services were running again | 08:22 |
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| anteaya | since one of the consequences of the split was that right afterwards the testing on the split out advanced services would not work | 08:22 |
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| trinaths | "new advanced services" | 08:23 |
| anteaya | so tests needed to be modified within openstack to get the infra jobs running again | 08:23 |
| anteaya | and to be honest I have now lost track and I don't know if the tests on advance services are working yet | 08:23 |
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| anteaya | they were expected to be down until sometime this week | 08:23 |
| anteaya | so it is possible that during the split itself the plugins might not be able to be tested | 08:24 |
| anteaya | which should not be a problem since new code to the plugins should be frozen for the duration of the split | 08:24 |
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| trinaths | I heard tempests test will also be splitted. | 08:24 |
| anteaya | as for how to prepare | 08:24 |
| anteaya | I would suggest ensuring you read the meeting logs of any meetings that discuss the split | 08:25 |
| anteaya | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/ | 08:25 |
| anteaya | this is where all openstack channel and meeting logs are accessed | 08:25 |
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| anteaya | help yourself | 08:26 |
| anteaya | also, I would find Edgar Magma in #openstack-neutron | 08:26 |
| nuritv | anteaya: my concern is more about ml2 md that will be out of tree. this would need us,as vendors, change code, git branch, etc. | 08:26 |
| anteaya | it very well might require all of that | 08:26 |
| anteaya | have you been able to attend the ml2 meetings at all? | 08:26 |
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| nuritv | anteaya: not yet. will start this week | 08:27 |
| anteaya | okay, I would definitely suggest that | 08:27 |
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| anteaya | have you had a chance to look at the ml2 meeting logs? | 08:27 |
| nuritv | anteaya: not yet. will start this week also :) | 08:27 |
| anteaya | okay | 08:28 |
| anteaya | so start there | 08:28 |
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| anteaya | also talk to Edgar | 08:28 |
| anteaya | he answers a lot of third party CI questions for Neutron | 08:28 |
| anteaya | he is emagma in irc | 08:28 |
| anteaya | he might have some specifics | 08:29 |
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| anteaya | does that help? | 08:29 |
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| nuritv | yes! . will do. i guess it now just to keep track on what will be the decision. | 08:29 |
| anteaya | okay great | 08:29 |
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| nuritv | and that brings me to my last Q | 08:29 |
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| nuritv | when ever our CI is down. is it better to turn it off and not vote at all, or jut mark it down at the Wiki. | 08:30 |
| anteaya | both | 08:30 |
| nuritv | anteaya:ok. thanks. | 08:30 |
| anteaya | if your CI is not functioning as expected turn it off | 08:30 |
| anteaya | there is nothing worse for your CI that to be non-functioning yet commenting on patches | 08:31 |
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| anteaya | as you train developers to ignore your system | 08:31 |
| anteaya | since you are not monitoring when you are posting quality information or noise | 08:31 |
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| anteaya | so they will just assume you always post noise | 08:31 |
| anteaya | however | 08:32 |
| trinaths | nuritv: This the latest log of the last ML2 meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_ml2/2014/networking_ml2.2014-12-03-16.03.log.html held on Dec-3rd | 08:32 |
| anteaya | if you monitor your system and its quality | 08:32 |
| anteaya | and only post comments when your system is actually working | 08:32 |
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| anteaya | then developers will soon learn that your system can be trusted | 08:32 |
| anteaya | and updating the wikipage helps people to find accurate status information on your system | 08:33 |
| nuritv | got it! thanks | 08:33 |
| anteaya | so again, it shows you are paying attention to how the output from your system is percieved by those using it | 08:33 |
| nuritv | trinaths: thanks | 08:33 |
| anteaya | thank you | 08:33 |
| anteaya | nuritv: anything else right now? | 08:34 |
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| nuritv | anteaya: no. thanks | 08:34 |
| anteaya | great | 08:34 |
| anteaya | does anyone else have anything they wish to discuss? | 08:34 |
| Guest24100 | I always found this in zuul log: zuul.Gearman: Looking for lost builds | 08:35 |
| anteaya | hello Guest24100 | 08:35 |
| Guest24100 | Hi | 08:35 |
| anteaya | are you able to introduce yourself? | 08:35 |
| anteaya | I don't believe I know you | 08:35 |
| Guest24100 | You can call me bob | 08:35 |
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| anteaya | okay bob, welcome | 08:35 |
| Guest24100 | So what does that mean? | 08:36 |
| anteaya | so you have a question about gearman | 08:36 |
| trinaths | my question [2] | 08:36 |
| Guest24100 | yes | 08:36 |
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| anteaya | does anyone have a response to bob's question? | 08:36 |
| Guest24100 | zuul.Gearman: Looking for lost builds | 08:36 |
| trinaths | Guest24100: I too have this log in my merger-debug.log | 08:36 |
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| nikil22 | bob : have you tried to stop zuu and zuul-merger service and then rm -rf /var/log/zuul/* then restart the service and checked | 08:37 |
| anteaya | hello nikil22, glad you made it | 08:37 |
| Guest24100 | Yes, i have tried that | 08:37 |
| Guest24100 | if i restart it, it will be ok | 08:38 |
| Guest24100 | But I don't want always restart it | 08:38 |
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| nikil22 | bob : oh ok , yes can't restart all time . I just got few errors similar and i just did above step and it worked | 08:39 |
| Guest24100 | Thanks, I have not yet do the "rm -rf /var/log/zuul/*" | 08:40 |
| Guest24100 | And i will try it | 08:40 |
| nikil22 | bob: thats just to clear logs but i guess it wont help | 08:40 |
| Guest24100 | :-) | 08:40 |
| nikil22 | And I have questions related to devstack-gate. when does the function pre_test_hook works? Basically In CI system i want to enable the driver in neutron.conf and then start the service | 08:40 |
| anteaya | let's ensure bob is statisfied before we move on | 08:41 |
| anteaya | bob are we okay to move on, or do you have more? | 08:41 |
| Guest24100 | No more, thanks! | 08:41 |
| anteaya | great, thank you | 08:41 |
| Guest24100 | :-) | 08:41 |
| anteaya | nikil22: okay so your turn I believe | 08:41 |
| anteaya | you have a question about the pre_test_hook funtion in devstack-gate | 08:42 |
| anteaya | is that correct? | 08:42 |
| nikil22 | yes | 08:42 |
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| anteaya | does anyone have a reply to nikil22's question? | 08:43 |
| nikil22 | i guess that is the function to enable drivers and modify other configuration files related to specify plugin insted of default one | 08:43 |
| anteaya | or perform any other commands to set up a specific environment | 08:44 |
| anteaya | before the tests run | 08:44 |
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| anteaya | so it sounds like the pre_test_hook is a good place to begin your experiments in what you want to accomplish | 08:45 |
| anteaya | did anyone else have anything more to add in response to this question? | 08:45 |
| anteaya | nikil22: are you statisfied or do you need more? | 08:46 |
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| * anteaya waits for nikil22 to reply | 08:47 | |
| nikil22 | will the pre_test_hook will run before starting the porcess or after starting the neutron-server process. Because if we change the settings then we need to restart the services right | 08:47 |
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| anteaya | nikil22: I don't know exactly | 08:48 |
| anteaya | but I would guess that the pre_test_hook runs before the services start | 08:48 |
| nikil22 | ok thanks i will do expriments then :-) | 08:48 |
| anteaya | that sounds like a good way forward | 08:48 |
| anteaya | nikil22: all done for this question? | 08:48 |
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| anteaya | nikil22: can we move on? | 08:50 |
| nikil22 | yes | 08:50 |
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| anteaya | thank you | 08:50 |
| nikil22 | thanks | 08:50 |
| anteaya | 10 minutes remaining | 08:50 |
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| anteaya | who has something else they would like to discuss? | 08:50 |
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| anteaya | if noone else does, I have a question | 08:51 |
| anteaya | Murad: hello | 08:51 |
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| Murad | Hello | 08:51 |
| nikil22 | bob : have you ever tried to restart your jenkins-master machine and tried . so that it would restart the jenkins server also and all other services | 08:51 |
| nikil22 | Murad: hii | 08:52 |
| Murad | Hi | 08:52 |
| anteaya | last week we discussed how to get your server to serve files in the browser without being prompted to download them | 08:52 |
| Murad | yes | 08:52 |
| anteaya | Murad: do you know how to access the logs of the third-party meetings? | 08:52 |
| anteaya | since I believe I saw you asking this exact same question in the -infra channel this week | 08:52 |
| Murad | yes I have a link for the previous meeting | 08:52 |
| anteaya | and I was curious as to why that was | 08:52 |
| anteaya | since we discussed it last week | 08:53 |
| anteaya | and I wondered if perhaps you don't know where to find the meeting logs to read them | 08:53 |
| Murad | That was because I was using wrong way to compress files | 08:53 |
| Murad | I have to use "gzip" | 08:53 |
| anteaya | oh, can you explain? | 08:53 |
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| anteaya | why do you have to use "gzip"? | 08:53 |
| Murad | I was using "tar" to produce gz files | 08:53 |
| anteaya | what is making you do that? | 08:53 |
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| Murad | in order to compress log files | 08:54 |
| anteaya | well you use the tar command with the flag to output gziped files | 08:54 |
| anteaya | to produce gzipped files | 08:54 |
| Murad | yes but that didn't work until I used "gzip" | 08:55 |
| anteaya | okay so what was the question to -infra (which I am redirecting to this meeting) | 08:55 |
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| Murad | when I was compressing files with TAR, it only worked on firefox. So I though that I might using wrong apache configurations | 08:56 |
| Murad | and that was my question | 08:56 |
| Murad | after investigation, I used gzip and it worked | 08:56 |
| anteaya | okay so you discoverd the answer to your own question | 08:57 |
| Murad | yes | 08:57 |
| anteaya | great | 08:57 |
| anteaya | thank you | 08:57 |
| Murad | thanks | 08:57 |
| anteaya | does anyone have anything else? | 08:57 |
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| anteaya | well time to wrap up then | 08:58 |
| jyuso | anteaya: Our CI log server is online now.If you have free time,could you help to point out the ssl-cert issue of our logs:) | 08:58 |
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| anteaya | jyuso: you can pm me the ip address so I can view the logs | 08:59 |
| jyuso | anteaya: OK | 08:59 |
| anteaya | thank you | 08:59 |
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| anteaya | so thank you everyone for attending this week | 08:59 |
| anteaya | see you next week | 08:59 |
| anteaya | #endmeeting | 08:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 08:59 | |
| jyuso | anteaya: thanks,see you | 08:59 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 16 08:59:34 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 08:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2014/third_party.2014-12-16-08.00.html | 08:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2014/third_party.2014-12-16-08.00.txt | 08:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2014/third_party.2014-12-16-08.00.log.html | 08:59 |
| heyongli | anteaya, bye | 08:59 |
| anteaya | bye | 08:59 |
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| mestery | hi | 13:59 |
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| nati_ueno | Hi | 13:59 |
| russellb | hi! | 13:59 |
| sweston | good morning! | 13:59 |
| yamamoto | hi | 13:59 |
| lukasa | hi | 13:59 |
| obondarev | o/ | 13:59 |
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| HenryG | \o | 13:59 |
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| marun | Hi | 14:00 |
| markmcclain | hi | 14:00 |
| amotoki | hi | 14:00 |
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| ihrachyshka | o/ | 14:00 |
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| * dougwig yawns hi | 14:00 | |
| * mestery hands dougwig a red bull | 14:00 | |
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| ajo | hi ;) | 14:02 |
| rkukura | hi | 14:02 |
| mestery | #startmeeting networking | 14:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 16 14:02:18 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mestery. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking' | 14:02 |
| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings Agenda | 14:02 |
| mestery | #topic Announcements | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:02 | |
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| mestery | The Neutron mid-cycle was last week in Lehi, Utah. | 14:02 |
| salv-orlando | aloha | 14:03 |
| mestery | Thanks to all who attended, I think it was very succesful and we accomplished a lot! | 14:03 |
| mestery | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-December/052715.html Mid-cycle report | 14:03 |
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| mestery | Neutron SAD was yesterday | 14:03 |
| mestery | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-November/050958.html | 14:03 |
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| mestery | The neutron-drivers team is still pouring through some remaining specs, we had so many it's taking longer than expected | 14:04 |
| mestery | I expect we'll be done with this process by the end of the week at the latest | 14:04 |
| mestery | In the meantime, I'm yak shaving LP and putting approved specs into either Kilo-2 or Kilo-3, if I've placed yours wrong, please let me know. | 14:05 |
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| mestery | Also, we've already granted a few specs an extension until Friday, so if you've gotten one, please iterate quickly on it this week | 14:05 |
| mestery | Any questions on SAD or specs in general? | 14:05 |
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| mestery | One more announcement: Kilo-1 is this week | 14:06 |
| mestery | I have a 1:1 with ttx after this meeting, we'll likely cut Kilo-1 Wednesday | 14:06 |
| mestery | Since we accomplished the services split, it will be great to have people test the tarballs and ensure things are smooth there | 14:07 |
| mestery | Any other announcements for the team? | 14:07 |
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| mestery | #topic Bugs | 14:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:08 | |
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| mestery | enikanorov enikanorov__: Hi, are you around? | 14:08 |
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| mestery | OK, in lieu of enikanorov__ enikanorov not being here, does anyone have a bug they'd like to bring up with the broader team? | 14:09 |
| ihrachyshka | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-neutronclient/+bug/1401555 ? that's a regression in client | 14:09 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1401555 in python-neutronclient "subnet: --enable-dhcp=False/True syntax is not accepted since 2.3.5" [High,In progress] | 14:09 |
| mestery | ihrachyshka: Is this the one we discussed last week? | 14:10 |
| ihrachyshka | yes | 14:10 |
| mestery | ihrachyshka: I'll review this one ASAP once hte meeting concludes, I looked at the review last week already, thanks! | 14:10 |
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| mestery | ihrachyshka: As we discussed, once this one merges, I'll roll a new version of the client and push to pypi. | 14:11 |
| ihrachyshka | thanks | 14:11 |
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| obondarev | mestery: I know enikanorov wanted to bring up https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1382064 again | 14:11 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1382064 in neutron "Failure to allocate tunnel id when creating networks concurrently" [High,In progress] | 14:11 |
| obondarev | it showed up in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/140493/ | 14:12 |
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| obondarev | last time IIRC the desision was to try make READ_COMMITED globally | 14:12 |
| mestery | obondarev: I recall that discussion | 14:13 |
| obondarev | trying to find that patch... | 14:13 |
| marun | Didn't enikanorov find that the global fix didn't work? | 14:13 |
| marun | And was working on a localized fix? | 14:13 |
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| marun | He didn't give any details as to why the global fix was a non-starter though. | 14:14 |
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| obondarev | AFAIK there were lots of lock wait timeout failures | 14:14 |
| obondarev | so READ_COMMITED globally seems tot to be the right way to goy | 14:15 |
| obondarev | go* | 14:15 |
| ihrachyshka | obondarev: was it the same with mysql-connector? | 14:15 |
| obondarev | ihrachyshka: don't know about that | 14:16 |
| obondarev | so the current fix is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/129288/8 | 14:16 |
| obondarev | which seems working , at least here https://review.openstack.org/#/c/140493/ there are no such failures | 14:16 |
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| mestery | marun: Looks like you've been actively reviewing these, can you work with enikanorov on a path forward here? Do you have time for that? | 14:18 |
| obondarev | I think the discussion may be continued on gerrit though | 14:18 |
| marun | Can do | 14:18 |
| mestery | marun: Thanks! | 14:18 |
| mestery | OK, any other bugs for the team to discuss this week? | 14:19 |
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| lintan_ | I have one https://launchpad.net/bugs/1384577 | 14:19 |
| lintan_ | It's about to Enable adding new tag with options | 14:20 |
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| mestery | lintan_: Looking | 14:20 |
| lintan_ | here is detail https://review.openstack.org/#/c/130498/ | 14:20 |
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| mestery | lintan_: Thank you for adding the unit tests to this one, I'll look at this in detial post meeting as well. | 14:21 |
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| lintan_ | OK thanks | 14:22 |
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| matrohon | I still have this bug : https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1361540 | 14:22 |
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| matrohon | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1361540 | 14:22 |
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| mestery | matrohon: Looks like this one is in review now, you have some comments from arosen in there too | 14:23 |
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| sweston | I also have one I'd like to get some input on, I have written the unit tests for it, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/109848/ | 14:24 |
| matrohon | mestery : yes, I'm not sure to understand his proposal... | 14:24 |
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| matrohon | I was haoping to find arosen here :) | 14:24 |
| mestery | matrohon: I don't see arosen here, so lets sort it out either on the ML or in gerrit :) | 14:24 |
| mestery | sweston: Looking | 14:24 |
| sweston | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/109848/ | 14:24 |
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| marun | sweston: I'll provide some feedback post-meeting about the testing on that patch | 14:26 |
| mestery | marun sweston: Thanks! | 14:26 |
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| sweston | marun mestery: excellent, thank you! this is my first unit test, so be gentle | 14:26 |
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| mestery | lol | 14:27 |
| marun | sweston: :) | 14:27 |
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| mestery | OK, lets move on now. | 14:27 |
| mestery | #topic Docs | 14:27 |
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| mestery | I'm not sure if emagana is here, but he has updated the wiki for this section | 14:27 |
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| mestery | so I'll link some things here for the record | 14:27 |
| mestery | #link https://github.com/ionosphere80/openstack-networking-guide/blob/master/scenario-dvr/scenario-dvr.md New networking diagram for DVR | 14:28 |
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| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/NetworkingGuide/TOC Networking Guide TOC | 14:28 |
| mestery | #link https://github.com/openstack/openstack-manuals/tree/master/doc/networking-guide Docs gerrit for the networking guide | 14:28 |
| mestery | #topic On Demand Agenda | 14:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "On Demand Agenda (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:28 | |
| mestery | I'll encourage folks to read the pluggable devstack spec | 14:28 |
| mestery | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/137054/ | 14:28 |
| mestery | This is close to landing, and will affect neutron drivers in devstack | 14:29 |
| mestery | #topic Services Split Update | 14:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Services Split Update (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:29 | |
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| mestery | dougwig: Around? | 14:29 |
| dougwig | sort of. :) | 14:29 |
| mestery | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-December/052713.html | 14:29 |
| dougwig | this is the final split update. it should all be working now, and devstack should be happy. | 14:29 |
| mestery | dougwig: Want to fill folks in, or I can if the red bull hasn't kicked in ;) | 14:29 |
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| dougwig | broken 3rd party CI's, excepting vmware, should be updated as necessary. devstack-gate CI's should've picked up changes automatically. | 14:30 |
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| mestery | *sigh* | 14:30 |
| ihrachyshka | dougwig: how about upgrade for Juno users? ;) | 14:30 |
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| dougwig | if you've got service reviews, please re-submit against the new repos. | 14:30 |
| dougwig | Moving extensions, config files/items, and separating tempest tests remain and will be part of Kilo | 14:30 |
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| dougwig | please file bugs for any issues that you see at this point. | 14:30 |
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| marun | What about specs? | 14:31 |
| dougwig | oh, a net split. | 14:31 |
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| mestery | yeah, net split. meh | 14:31 |
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| amotoki | dougwig: do we still use neutron launchpad for lbaas bugs? just a confirmation. | 14:31 |
| mestery | amotoki: Yes | 14:32 |
| mestery | We have a single LP project and specs repo for all these new repos | 14:32 |
| amotoki | thanks for the clarification | 14:32 |
| mestery | Any other split questions? | 14:32 |
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| ihrachyshka | whether we are going to fix upgrade before kilo-1 | 14:33 |
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| ihrachyshka | I have a bug assigned to me, but probably little capacity right now | 14:33 |
| ihrachyshka | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1401895 | 14:33 |
| dougwig | ihrachyshka: current plan was that driver paths must be updated in neutron.conf, and kilo-1's neutron package will include all four repo's travels. | 14:33 |
| ihrachyshka | so if anyone wants to handle that before kilo-1, cool :) | 14:33 |
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| dougwig | /travels/tarballs/ | 14:33 |
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| mestery | ihrachyshka: armax committed a fix for the grenade issue already? | 14:34 |
| mestery | ihrachyshka: Are you talking about a cleaner fix? | 14:34 |
| ihrachyshka | dougwig: I don't think it's anything but short-term fix. upgrade should work without messing with config files | 14:34 |
| mestery | ihrachyshka: Got it | 14:34 |
| ihrachyshka | yes, we need smooth upgrade | 14:34 |
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| mestery | ihrachyshka: It's unlikely that will get fixed before Kilo-1, which is Wednesday, unless someone else jumps on this. | 14:34 |
| jlibosva | mestery: ihrachyshka: I volunteer | 14:35 |
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| jlibosva | I will try to send patches today | 14:35 |
| ihrachyshka | jlibosva++ | 14:35 |
| ihrachyshka | coooool | 14:35 |
| mestery | jlibosva: Awesome! Include me, armax and dougwig on the reviews please | 14:35 |
| mestery | thanks jlibosva! | 14:35 |
| ihrachyshka | me too | 14:35 |
| jlibosva | will do | 14:35 |
| ihrachyshka | assigning bug to Jakub | 14:35 |
| dougwig | thanks jlibosva | 14:35 |
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| mestery | Great! | 14:35 |
| mestery | Anything else services split related? | 14:36 |
| pc_m | mestery: grenade issue fix? Is that for the current oslo.db issue? | 14:36 |
| pc_m | mestery: Seeing pretty much all grenade tests failing right now. | 14:36 |
| ihrachyshka | pc_m: no, that's for service_provider entries requiring update after moving to split repos | 14:36 |
| ihrachyshka | another split thing: | 14:37 |
| ihrachyshka | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-December/052972.html | 14:37 |
| mestery | pc_m: Link to a bug for the issue you're looking at? Or did you just see this now? | 14:37 |
| salv-orlando | dougwig, mestery: I hope you can forgive the vmware ci for being still broken. I only have two hands, two eyses, and one brain (well just more than half) | 14:37 |
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| ihrachyshka | I encourage people to check whether current plan to manage oslo-incubator stuff is ok | 14:37 |
| mestery | salv-orlando: lol | 14:37 |
| pc_m | mestery: just saw now that my (and many other commits are failing). Saw some chatter on infra this morning. | 14:37 |
| dougwig | salv-orlando: no worries, i know that kobis is working on getting the vmware plugin working again as well | 14:37 |
| jlibosva | mestery: pc_m it's an issue with sqlalchemy version required by oslo.db, leading to swift not starting | 14:38 |
| mestery | jlibosva: Thanks! | 14:38 |
| jlibosva | I think https://review.openstack.org/#/c/141927/1 is the patch that is supposed to fix it | 14:38 |
| mestery | Since we've moved here at this point ... | 14:38 |
| mestery | #topic Open Discussion | 14:38 |
| pc_m | jlibosva: I hoipe so. Thanks! | 14:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:38 | |
| salv-orlando | kobis is doing part of that yes. | 14:38 |
| mestery | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/141927/1 | 14:38 |
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| mestery | OK, thanks again for everyone's efforts! | 14:40 |
| mestery | I encourage folks to test the Kilo-1 tarballs once they land this week from a services perspective, it will be our first time post-split to release so testing is critical. | 14:40 |
| mestery | We'll see you all on the ML and in-channel! | 14:40 |
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| mestery | #endmeeting | 14:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:40 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 16 14:40:51 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:40 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2014/networking.2014-12-16-14.02.html | 14:40 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2014/networking.2014-12-16-14.02.txt | 14:40 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2014/networking.2014-12-16-14.02.log.html | 14:40 |
| salv-orlando | adieuuu | 14:40 |
| nati_ueno | Bye | 14:41 |
| lukasa | o/ | 14:41 |
| jlibosva | bye | 14:41 |
| marios | o/ | 14:41 |
| dougwig | bye | 14:41 |
| obondarev | o/ | 14:41 |
| markmcclain | bye | 14:41 |
| ihrachyshka | bye | 14:41 |
| amotoki | bye | 14:41 |
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| sweston | o/ | 14:41 |
| rkukura | bye | 14:41 |
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| marun | Caio | 14:41 |
| yamamoto | bye | 14:42 |
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| bauzas | tik tak tok | 15:00 |
| n0ano | #startmeeting gantt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 16 15:00:36 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'gantt' | 15:00 |
| n0ano | anyone here to talk about the scheduler? | 15:00 |
| alex_xu | \o | 15:00 |
| * bauzas waves | 15:00 | |
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| bauzas | \o | 15:00 |
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| edleafe | o/ | 15:01 |
| n0ano | bauzas, you always beat me by about 10 seconds :-) | 15:01 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: eh, my middle name is Tag Heuer | 15:01 |
| n0ano | bauzas, mine is `whenever` :-) | 15:02 |
| n0ano | anyway, let's start | 15:02 |
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| n0ano | #topic code clean up status | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "code clean up status (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:02 | |
| PaulMurray | hi | 15:02 |
| n0ano | I saw you had a long IRC converstation with jaypipes , did you work everything out? | 15:02 |
| bauzas | by you, whose you're talking ? :) | 15:02 |
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| * bauzas likes long convos with jaypipes | 15:03 | |
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| n0ano | you == bauzas , I think you were talking about the isolate scheduler DB | 15:03 |
| bauzas | s/whose/whom (darn French !) | 15:03 |
| bauzas | n0ano: oh | 15:03 |
| n0ano | bauzas, sorry, s/whom/who (I can be pedantic about grammar too) | 15:03 |
| bauzas | n0ano: well, everything is normal, he doesn't like my proposal, I consequently hassled him | 15:04 |
| bauzas | n0ano: nah, enough kidding | 15:04 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: so, my former proposal was about to persist aggregates information in a separate table held by the Scheduler | 15:04 |
| bauzas | n0ano: as I had many reviews saying it was a bad idea, I consequently changed my spec to only provide an in-memory update | 15:05 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: there are still some concerns about how to populate that cache, so I still expect further feedback | 15:05 |
| * edleafe is glad he didn't update his spec for table persistence | 15:05 | |
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| n0ano | ahh, that was the memory cache you two were talking about, is that in the updated spec I just saw the notic for? | 15:05 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: hence my comment to wait the aggregate spec to be at least one +2'd ;) | 15:05 |
| edleafe | bauzas: exactly :) | 15:06 |
| bauzas | n0ano: correct | 15:06 |
| bauzas | with the link, it's better | 15:06 |
| bauzas | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/89893/ | 15:06 |
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| bauzas | above is the updated spec taking in account all previous comments | 15:06 |
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| n0ano | so, definitely reviewable but sounds like you expect at least one more update on it | 15:07 |
| bauzas | that's not perfect IMHO, as the Scheduler is still calling the Aggregate API once in its lifetime, but that's a good path till we split the scheduler | 15:07 |
| bauzas | n0ano: well, you know that the devil is in the details... | 15:07 |
| bauzas | anyway, I'm preparing to request an exception for the freeze if we can't make it for Thursday | 15:08 |
| bauzas | that's a very old spec and still necessary for the split | 15:08 |
| n0ano | bauzas, good plan, i'm guessing we'll need it but we should be close | 15:09 |
| bauzas | n0ano: yeah, the main problem is to define how to do this | 15:09 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: once we agree on the plan for updating the Scheduler view and all the tradeoffs, then we can quickly iterate | 15:09 |
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| alex_xu | bauzas, how can remove the aggregate api calling when we split scheduler? | 15:09 |
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| alex_xu | pull data instead of push data? | 15:10 |
| bauzas | alex_xu: well, that's something which can be discussed | 15:10 |
| bauzas | alex_xu: I wrote in the alternatives sections that it's possible to persist the dataz | 15:10 |
| alex_xu | bauzas, ok, I will read it | 15:10 |
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| bauzas | alex_xu: but it would require a separate nova scheduler service | 15:11 |
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| alex_xu | bauzas, looks like our api is push data, this won't changed | 15:11 |
| bauzas | anyway, that actually comes to the fact that we plan to ship first a library | 15:11 |
| bauzas | if we consider a library, that doesn't work well with the concept of having its own DB | 15:12 |
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| bauzas | anyway, I think it's a bit early for discussing this - at least until this 89893 spec merges | 15:12 |
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| alex_xu | ok, think about it later | 15:12 |
| bauzas | because that spec is necessary for thinking about how we can ship the scheduler | 15:13 |
| n0ano | bauzas, I agree, get the overall design approved and then work out the details | 15:13 |
| bauzas | n0ano: so, that's it for this specific BP | 15:13 |
| n0ano | cool, tnx | 15:13 |
| bauzas | n0ano: that's good we targeted it for K3 anywauy | 15:13 |
| bauzas | because it seems it will probably a couple of weeks still to get it merged | 15:14 |
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| n0ano | looking at our dashboard, https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Gantt/kilo#Tasks | 15:14 |
| n0ano | the isolate scheduler DB is open but we have line of sight for approval, | 15:15 |
| n0ano | jaypipes, his object model spec is the big open | 15:15 |
| bauzas | agreed | 15:15 |
| bauzas | +1 too | 15:15 |
| bauzas | and I have some concerns about what he's planning to do | 15:15 |
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| n0ano | unfortunately, he doesn't seem to be responding today | 15:16 |
| bauzas | I actually required many review iterations to understand what the spec was doing, so that's my bad if I'm giving -1 so late | 15:16 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, no worries, that's just part of the process | 15:16 |
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| bauzas | I'm not a logical person, that means I need sometimes more time to understand some concepts :) | 15:17 |
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| n0ano | I think I'll try and find jaypipes on IRC later and see if we can get an update on his plans for that spec | 15:17 |
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| n0ano | of course, I'm kind of avoiding the issue that now we have to implement the specs that have been approved | 15:18 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: did you get updates from jaypipes about his spec ? | 15:18 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: I saw you were discussing about it, even by the big G hangout stuff | 15:19 |
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| bauzas | sounds like we also lost PaulMurray | 15:19 |
| n0ano | yep (I've had network issues in the past myself) | 15:20 |
| bauzas | netsplit ? | 15:20 |
| n0ano | we'll just have to ping jaypipes later | 15:20 |
| bauzas | agreed | 15:20 |
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| n0ano | we've kind of covered the specs let's move on | 15:21 |
| n0ano | #topic opens | 15:21 |
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| n0ano | anything else we want to discuss today? | 15:21 |
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| bauzas | nothing really for me | 15:21 |
| edleafe | nor me | 15:22 |
| n0ano | short meeting works for me | 15:22 |
| bauzas | \o/ | 15:22 |
| alex_xu | nothing from me | 15:22 |
| n0ano | we still have reviews so let's all do that | 15:22 |
| edleafe | sounds like a plan | 15:22 |
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| n0ano | BTW, I'll be around next week (big holiday coming up I hear) do we still want a meeting next week? | 15:22 |
| bauzas | n0ano: oh good point | 15:23 |
| edleafe | I'll be around | 15:23 |
| bauzas | lemme check the date | 15:23 |
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| edleafe | but yeah, a lot of people will be off | 15:23 |
| bauzas | sounds feasible | 15:23 |
| n0ano | Christmas day is Thurs so Tues is fine by me | 15:23 |
| * n0ano has all his shopping done for the first time ever | 15:23 | |
| bauzas | I should be off by end of Tues till 5th Jan | 15:24 |
| n0ano | bauzas, NP, enjoy, I'll still run a meeting next week, it could be `very` short | 15:24 |
| bauzas | n0ano: ack | 15:24 |
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| PaulMurray | bauzas, I was pulled into something by my manager - I can update at the end if you like | 15:24 |
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| n0ano | PaulMurray, go for it | 15:24 |
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| PaulMurray | bauzas, ok | 15:25 |
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| PaulMurray | I have a discussion with jaypipes about his spec for resource object models | 15:25 |
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| bauzas | right | 15:26 |
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| PaulMurray | The basic point was making sure that two things are covered that were requirements for ERT | 15:26 |
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| PaulMurray | 1) ability to select resources for different virt drivers | 15:26 |
| PaulMurray | 2) making sure it is easy to develop and contribute new resource objects | 15:26 |
| PaulMurray | I also noted a bug in the resource tracker to do with ironic | 15:27 |
| n0ano | PaulMurray, good goals, I approve | 15:27 |
| PaulMurray | Ironic uses resources differently to other virt drivers | 15:27 |
| PaulMurray | and that is not accounted for at the moment | 15:27 |
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| bauzas | PaulMurray: I agree, I had many troubles with Ironic when implement detach-service | 15:27 |
| PaulMurray | so this is an opportunity to make sure those kind of things are easy to deal with in the future | 15:28 |
| PaulMurray | I can find the link for the bug - hold on | 15:28 |
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| PaulMurray | https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1402658 | 15:28 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1402658 in nova "resource tracking is incorrect for ironic" [Undecided,New] | 15:29 |
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| PaulMurray | That can be dealt with as a bug fix, but dealing with resources that behave differently should be inherent in the solution | 15:29 |
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| PaulMurray | Anyway - Jay is going to do a revision to day I think | 15:29 |
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| bauzas | PaulMurray: I was also having some concerns about how he's planning to update the stats | 15:30 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: IIUC, he was planning to update the UsageSpec classes, but not the ComputeNode object | 15:31 |
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| PaulMurray | bauzas, I got a little lost on that part - I need to get more familiar with the proposed code | 15:31 |
| n0ano | bauzas, as long as you indicate that in your review that should make jaypipes address those issues | 15:32 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: I think that's the main problem I had | 15:32 |
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| bauzas | PaulMurray: I was a little lost of what was the actual plan | 15:32 |
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| bauzas | but let's jaypipes clarify that in his spec | 15:33 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, I know that some of it looks confused because it deals with legacy around the ComputeNode object | 15:33 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: my main problem is that there are many set of classes and I was still having some problems with seeing the relationship with the ComputeNode object | 15:34 |
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| PaulMurray | bauzas, I'm not sure its done cleanly enough yet, but the path from legacy to being clean is not quite there for me | 15:34 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: agreed | 15:34 |
| PaulMurray | hence my concerns about ease of use | 15:34 |
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| PaulMurray | or rather ease of extension | 15:34 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: yeah, I just want to make sure it's quite understandable and readable by most of us | 15:34 |
| n0ano | I'm concerned about timing, even with an extension we don't have much time to get this right | 15:34 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, yes, I said would make myself available to help get it right | 15:35 |
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| n0ano | PaulMurray, tnx, anything to help | 15:35 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, it might need a restricted scope and a statement about where it intends to go | 15:35 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, can't really say much in jaypipes absense | 15:36 |
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| n0ano | yeah, understood, we'll try and get him later on IRC | 15:36 |
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| bauzas | agreed | 15:36 |
| n0ano | so, unless there's anything else | 15:36 |
| n0ano | I'll thank everyone and we'll talk again next week | 15:37 |
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| bauzas | sure thing | 15:37 |
| n0ano | #endmeeting | 15:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:37 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 16 15:37:42 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:37 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-12-16-15.00.html | 15:37 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-12-16-15.00.txt | 15:37 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-12-16-15.00.log.html | 15:37 |
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| msdubov_ | #startmeeting Rally | 17:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 16 17:01:01 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is msdubov_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'rally' | 17:01 |
| msdubov_ | rediskin rvasilets amaretskiy olkonami k4n0 oanufriev Good evening | 17:01 |
| amaretskiy | hi | 17:01 |
| rvasilets | Hi | 17:01 |
| oanufriev | hi | 17:01 |
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| olkonami | hi | 17:02 |
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| msdubov_ | Let's start! | 17:03 |
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| msdubov_ | #topic NetworkContext | 17:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "NetworkContext (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:03 | |
| msdubov_ | amaretskiy How are things with it, can we expect it being merged today/tommorow? | 17:03 |
| msdubov_ | amaretskiy Sorry for still not reviewing it :) | 17:04 |
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| amaretskiy | we have a working patch, but there are some changes requested by reviewers | 17:04 |
| amaretskiy | i hope we can merge in this week | 17:04 |
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| amaretskiy | *it | 17:05 |
| amaretskiy | eom | 17:05 |
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| msdubov_ | Sorry I got disconnected | 17:08 |
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| msdubov_ | #topic Tenant resources refactoring in context | 17:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tenant resources refactoring in context (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:09 | |
| msdubov_ | oanufriev Hi, please tell us what you've done here, and why this refactoring step was important | 17:10 |
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| oanufriev | so | 17:10 |
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| oanufriev | before this change resources in context were look like context[resource_name][tenant_id][some_useful_thing] | 17:11 |
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| oanufriev | that was difficult to search valid resource item for current context (usually that was implemented in for cycle)... | 17:13 |
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| oanufriev | either, we had to pass whole context[resource] tree to every process and thread | 17:14 |
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| msdubov_ | oanufriev, Okay, so a nice improvement really | 17:14 |
| oanufriev | now it looks like context[tenants][tenant_id][resource_name][some_useful_thing] | 17:15 |
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| msdubov_ | oanufriev Anything to add? | 17:16 |
| oanufriev | and we pass only resources related to actual tenant which saves memory and simpler to map resource to current tenant | 17:17 |
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| msdubov_ | oanufriev Okay, thanks. Let's move further | 17:17 |
| oanufriev | EOF | 17:17 |
| msdubov_ | #topic Scenario runners refactoring | 17:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Scenario runners refactoring (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:18 | |
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| msdubov_ | olkonami Could you please tell us what is your task here and what is your progress so far? | 17:18 |
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| olkonami | now I am working on improvement constant runner - refactor it like it done in rpc to start processes count according to cpu count and then use threads into the processes | 17:20 |
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| olkonami | the first step is take out general logic from rpc runner to some base class | 17:22 |
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| olkonami | now I am working on it, but I didn't have anything to show now, I'm just in process to understend how rewrite code to make it reusable | 17:24 |
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| msdubov_ | olkonami Okay, thanks. Sound like a plan, hope you get it soon | 17:25 |
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| msdubov_ | #topic Murano benchmarks | 17:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Murano benchmarks (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:29 | |
| msdubov_ | rvasilets Thanks for taking this patch, how was your progress with it today? | 17:29 |
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| msdubov_ | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/137650/ | 17:29 |
| rvasilets | I have Rebased patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/137650/ and I think it's ready for review | 17:30 |
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| rvasilets | This patch is added murano context and murano client to osclient | 17:31 |
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| rvasilets | Also thare is added python client validation | 17:32 |
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| rvasilets | eom | 17:32 |
| msdubov_ | rvasilets, Thanks! | 17:32 |
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| msdubov_ | #topic New decorator syntax in Rally (samples, deprecated stuff) | 17:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New decorator syntax in Rally (samples, deprecated stuff) (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:33 | |
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| msdubov_ | oanufriev, olkonami, Any updates on this? | 17:33 |
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| oanufriev | I'm working on 'sample' decorator | 17:34 |
| oanufriev | here https://review.openstack.org/#/c/140033/ | 17:34 |
| oanufriev | for now it's working, but only 2 items are decorated | 17:35 |
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| oanufriev | eom | 17:35 |
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| olkonami | msdubov, I realized deprecated reason, but haven't fix your last comments yet | 17:36 |
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| msdubov_ | Okay | 17:37 |
| msdubov_ | #topic Rally documentations | 17:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Rally documentations (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:38 | |
| olkonami | becose boris-42 said there are too many copy-pasting in that code and it should be rewrited | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | olkonami: yep | 17:38 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami: i will make advices today a bit latter | 17:38 |
| msdubov_ | So two quick updates from my side | 17:39 |
| olkonami | boris-42, ok, wait for any proposals from you | 17:39 |
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| msdubov_ | 1. Patch with Rally docstrings is on review, but it will be merged after NetworkContext | 17:39 |
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| msdubov_ | 2. Currently working on Rally ReadTheDocs, hoping to simplify the overall structure of our docs and also rewrite a bit the tutorial so that it treats first really simple examples and then moves to more involved ones | 17:40 |
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| msdubov_ | #topic Free discussion | 17:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Free discussion (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:40 | |
| msdubov_ | boris-42 rediskin rvasilets amaretskiy olkonami k4n0 oanufriev Anything to add? | 17:40 |
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| amaretskiy | nothing from my side | 17:41 |
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| rediskin | nope | 17:41 |
| oanufriev | no | 17:41 |
| rvasilets | no | 17:41 |
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| msdubov_ | Okay thanks to all | 17:45 |
| msdubov_ | #endmeeting | 17:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:46 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 16 17:46:01 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:46 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-12-16-17.01.html | 17:46 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-12-16-17.01.txt | 17:46 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-12-16-17.01.log.html | 17:46 |
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| stevemar | o/ | 17:59 |
| breton | good evening | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | soooo | 18:00 |
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| stevemar | morganfainberg, soooo | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ayoung, bknudson, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich, hrybacki, rharwood, grantbow, vdreamarkitex, raildo, rodrigods, amakarov, ajayaa, hogepodge, breton, lhcheng, nonameentername, samuelms, htruta | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:01 |
| raildo | o/ | 18:01 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:01 |
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| henrynash | zipedee doodah... | 18:01 |
| rharwood | hallo | 18:01 |
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| morganfainberg | that list gets longer and longer each week i think | 18:01 |
| rodrigods | o/ | 18:01 |
| lhcheng | o/ | 18:01 |
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| samuelms | \o | 18:01 |
| nkinder | o/ | 18:01 |
| dstanek | o/ | 18:01 |
| stevemar | ahoy | 18:01 |
| ayoung | Hey Ho Lets go! | 18:01 |
| henrynash | \o/ | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | #startmeeting Keystone | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 16 18:01:47 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is morganfainberg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:01 |
| gabriel-bezerra | o/ | 18:01 |
| raildo | ayoung, \,,,/ | 18:01 |
| * morganfainberg resists urge to startmeeting keystoners | 18:01 | |
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| morganfainberg | #topic Kilo-1 on Dec 18 | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Kilo-1 on Dec 18 (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| morganfainberg | thats right, in a couple days | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | k1 will be cut | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | we're very close, 3-4 outstanding bugs that are actively being worked on | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | #link https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/kilo-1 | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | make sure we get reviews on them, lets get them in by tomorrow so ttx can cut k1 keystone for us! | 18:03 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 18:03 |
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| morganfainberg | #topic Review Specs | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review Specs (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:03 | |
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| morganfainberg | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/keystone-specs,n,z | 18:03 |
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| morganfainberg | reminder, specs have a hard dealine of k2 | 18:03 |
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| morganfainberg | anything comeing in post k2 will need an explicit exception granted | 18:04 |
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| amakarov | hi! | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | now that the house keeping is out of the way | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Dynamic Policy Specs | 18:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Dynamic Policy Specs (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:04 | |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, o/ | 18:04 |
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| ayoung | Ah | 18:04 |
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| nonameentername | o/ | 18:04 |
| henrynash | the man of many specs.... | 18:05 |
| ayoung | OK...so I wanted to make sure people understood the concept | 18:05 |
| ayoung | the many specs are the result of tryung to break it down to consumable concepts | 18:05 |
| ayoung | so... | 18:05 |
| henrynash | ayoung: ++ | 18:05 |
| ayoung | We've got the ball rolling by promoting policy to an oslo library | 18:05 |
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| samuelms | rodrigods, o/ | 18:06 |
| ayoung | there is some confusion over that and the next one: enforce policy in a library | 18:06 |
| ayoung | and there is somet question about where that should live | 18:06 |
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| ayoung | I recently posted a refactoring of the keystone code that shows the difference in intention, though, between the oslo stuff and this | 18:06 |
| henrynash | ayoung: you mean where the actualy code taht calles the policy engine lives? | 18:06 |
| rodrigods | regarding the policy lib, the repo is here https://github.com/rodrigods/oslo.policy | 18:06 |
| ayoung | the distinction is that the oslo policy library is a rules engine, and not keystone specific | 18:07 |
| rodrigods | the spec is in the meeting wiki | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, as it should be. | 18:07 |
| ayoung | so while it is "necessary" it is not "sufficient" | 18:07 |
| ayoung | the next step is to common-ize the code for enforcing policy from a server...and to make sure that keystone is not treated differently than the other services | 18:07 |
| ayoung | ok, so I post this today: | 18:07 |
| ayoung | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/141969/ policy refactoring | 18:08 |
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| ayoung | it is still inside the keystone server but the code that is pulled into authorize.py needs to be made available to a wider audience: either KC or middleware | 18:08 |
| topol | o/ | 18:09 |
| ayoung | there needs to be more cleanup on this code before that happens, too, as there is a lot of duplication | 18:09 |
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| jamielennox | o/ | 18:09 |
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| ayoung | henrynash, so to address your question : yes, where the actually code that calls the policy engine lives? | 18:10 |
| ayoung | er.. ? -> . | 18:10 |
| henrynash | ayoung: lookd the right approach to me | 18:10 |
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| henrynash | ayoung: and, yes, that code could do with some cleanup :-) | 18:10 |
| ayoung | henrynash, to be more specific, to standardize how we pull values out of the token and enforce policy on them | 18:10 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:10 |
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| ayoung | now, raildo samuelms and company have been working on the actual policy files themselves in a parallel effort | 18:11 |
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| jamielennox | I would like a certain amount of that code to live inside the upcoming oslo.policy library | 18:11 |
| henrynash | ayoungL so feel free to lean on my for reviews of that stuff | 18:11 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, yeah, I think that there will be logicial splits in the code, and anything that is common to all rules engines would move to oslo.policy | 18:11 |
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| jamielennox | specifically the object that i pass out of auth_token middleware i want people to pass directly to oslo.policy so that essentially keystone controls "ends" of the information required to enforce policy | 18:12 |
| ayoung | henrynash, will do. and I think you and I are on the same course, but from different starting points | 18:12 |
| henrynash | ayoung: ++ | 18:12 |
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| jamielennox | both "ends" | 18:12 |
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| ayoung | jamielennox, OK, I think we are on the same page | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, that makes sense to me. | 18:12 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, i haven't seen anything that looks wildly off in the weeds being proposed here. | 18:13 |
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| ayoung | in order to enforce policy, we want to standardize the auth context. that starts with the token, but then goes on | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | or anything that surprised me, mostly what we've discussed summit and up to this point :) | 18:13 |
| jamielennox | (this may not be new ground i just only caught the last part of the conversation) | 18:13 |
| ayoung | I first rewrote it in the keystone server, but moved the rewrite to the KC code: | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, you caught on very early in the conv. | 18:13 |
| ayoung | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138519/ is the "Access Info" and is based on design guidance from morganfainberg | 18:14 |
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| ayoung | I happen to really like his guidance | 18:14 |
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| ayoung | it is a type of coding that some might find odd, but it enforces, as much as possible, that we have the right "types" for enforcing the policy | 18:14 |
| ayoung | that review has a wider implication | 18:14 |
| ayoung | it is also to be used in building the token | 18:15 |
| ayoung | and will be part of morganfainberg 's effort to clean up the token provider | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, and that code is a bit easier to read than using python descriptors | 18:15 |
| ayoung | its rally the hear of the data as managed by Keystone | 18:15 |
| ayoung | really | 18:15 |
| ayoung | really the heart | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, which is likely what i would have tried to use (easier to read = better in this case) | 18:15 |
| ayoung | one goal is to be able to make a call into keystone without a token, build up an AccessInfo object, and use it to enforce policy for tokenless operations | 18:16 |
| ayoung | that should make gyee happy... | 18:16 |
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| ayoung | ok...so that is all rfactoring, no new behavior yet | 18:16 |
| ayoung | on to new behavior | 18:16 |
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| ayoung | once the endpoints can agree on how to enforce policy, we want them to be able to get their policy files from the keystone server | 18:17 |
| ayoung | thuis has been on the roadmap for years | 18:17 |
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| topol | why would they need to agree on how to enforce policy? | 18:17 |
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| ayoung | the policy API as origianly specified was lackignthe ability to fetch the "right"policy file until henrynash got the endpoint stuff working | 18:18 |
| ayoung | topol, good question, lets make it explicit | 18:18 |
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| ayoung | topol, the policy mechanism is really RBAC | 18:18 |
| ayoung | and RBAC is an engineering effort to simpligfy access control | 18:18 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: what's the value of enforcing authorization on unauthenticated calls? | 18:18 |
| topol | all true | 18:18 |
| ayoung | we've made it a point that all of openstack shares the token infra | 18:18 |
| ayoung | dolphm, good point...I'll come back to that | 18:19 |
| ayoung | topol, so we want to make sure that a role is a reusable concept across two or more services | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, thanks for asking, i actually was going to ask that. | 18:19 |
| ayoung | we've seen the abuse of "is admin" | 18:19 |
| ayoung | what we want is to have agreement on what it means to have a role | 18:20 |
| topol | ayoung, so the interesting question is how much if any policy re-work the projects *must* do as opposed to this is a better option should you choose to leverage it? | 18:20 |
| ayoung | topol, so, one thing dolphm showed me last year is thathe policy approach was designed such that we could have single policuy file for all known enforcement points | 18:20 |
| ayoung | topol, the goal is to minimize the amount of work | 18:21 |
| bknudson | I don't think the other projects want to think about policy, so if we propose something they would be happy | 18:21 |
| lbragstad | ++ | 18:21 |
| topol | ayoung, agreed. Im tweaking your sales pitch | 18:21 |
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| ayoung | and to get it so that instead we identify the assumptions that they are building into their policy enforcement, and either incorporate those assumptions or remove them as appropriate | 18:21 |
| topol | bknudson++ | 18:21 |
| ayoung | yeah...glad to make this explicit | 18:21 |
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| ayoung | ok, dolphm back to your question | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i know no other projects want to think about policy | 18:21 |
| ayoung | I would not say "unauthenticated" calls are what I want here | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, well... except one but that doesn't count. | 18:21 |
| ayoung | I want to enforce policy on calls without gettnig a token first, but that are authenticated somehow | 18:22 |
| ayoung | the most common need is for long term agreements with services | 18:22 |
| topol | To sell this we need to deliver free gifts to the other projects. That being the better way of how to do policy. If they have to figure it out on their own you wont get traction | 18:22 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, in what context? on endpoints or just to keystone? | 18:22 |
| ayoung | for example, when Nova etc does a token validation, they need to first get a token themselves, which is a second round trip | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | topol, if it just works or requires minor tweaks thats a pretty easy sell i think. | 18:22 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, ok so just when interacting with keystone | 18:23 |
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| morganfainberg | not a user talking to nova | 18:23 |
| lbragstad | Policy-Management-as-a-Gift? | 18:23 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, yeah, | 18:23 |
| bknudson | nova only gets a token when its old token is expiring. | 18:23 |
| bknudson | or has expired. | 18:23 |
| ayoung | bknudson, right | 18:23 |
| henrynash | lbradstad: it is Christmas, after all | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, he's saying we should allow something like x509 for that | 18:23 |
| topol | ayoung, why this extra hoop? Sounds scary. Why not just say you can now pull your policy from keystone and we have a better sample for you to consider for your policy file.? | 18:23 |
| ayoung | yep | 18:23 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, rather than needing a username/password | 18:23 |
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| ayoung | topol, two reasons | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, not that a username/password wouldn't *also* work, but it wouldn't be required. | 18:24 |
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| ayoung | one, so we can updated it if there is a CVE | 18:24 |
| ayoung | 2. to build toward dynamically generating rules for the policy file...let me address that one | 18:24 |
| bknudson | ok, but if the argument is that nova needs to do 2 requests for each token that's not a good argument. | 18:24 |
| ayoung | OK, if you look at the rules, they are often things like "admin or owner" | 18:24 |
| ayoung | bknudson, yes it is | 18:25 |
| topol | I agree the rules are not granular | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, no thats not the only argument, the main argument is that deployers don't want usernames/passwords in config files - and encrypting that is a separate issue | 18:25 |
| bknudson | because nova doesn't need to do 2 requests for each token. | 18:25 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, nova not needing an extra round-trip every now and again is a benefit, but not the sole story | 18:25 |
| ayoung | bknudson, but, was a goal. The rest of the design stands on its own even if we don't do it | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, it's a kill few birds with one stone. | 18:26 |
| ayoung | OK so back to rules: | 18:26 |
| ayoung | the idea is that our roles are really collections of capabilities | 18:26 |
| ayoung | henrynash, I think that is one of your key points | 18:27 |
| topol | ayoung whats not coming through is how this benefits the projects. Benefits beyond them getting the policy file from keystone and beyond a more granular RBAC policy sample (gift) for them to use... There seems to be another catch that I am not understanding | 18:27 |
| samuelms | ayoung, henrynash ++ | 18:27 |
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| ayoung | so the smalles thing we have right now are the rules themselves, which are mapped to APIs. | 18:27 |
| samuelms | what about introduce capabilities on keystone ? | 18:27 |
| ayoung | things like | 18:27 |
| ayoung | identity:check_token | 18:27 |
| ayoung | or compute:boot | 18:28 |
| henrynash | ayoung: indeed….I think we should separate service capabilities (which are kind of our roles today) and the “real roles” which are collections of those capabilities | 18:28 |
| ayoung | henrynash, so that is what I am driving towards | 18:28 |
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| samuelms | henrynash, ++ | 18:28 |
| samuelms | henrynash, domain-roles | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | samuelms, i think that comes down to further work on this thought path. | 18:28 |
| ayoung | so we also need to "not break things" | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | samuelms, this would be the start and wouldn't preclude moving to much more granular stuff | 18:28 |
| ayoung | and that is what lead to this approach geting so granular | 18:28 |
| topol | Needs to be clear what extra work the projects need to do to take advantage (more pep points?) and needs to be clear what benefits they will see | 18:28 |
| ayoung | so, look at the rules, los of them assume "user has some role on the project" | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | topol, ++ clear additional PEP benefits is key | 18:29 |
| samuelms | morganfainberg, k | 18:29 |
| ayoung | and we used to have the idea of "user is a member of a proejct" as a separate concept from roles...which we changed into :"uuser has the member role on a projct" | 18:29 |
| dolphm | topol: ++ i'm not clear on what we're asking of other projects, if anything | 18:29 |
| ayoung | so we could look at the existing roles as admin and member | 18:29 |
| ayoung | there are few other one offs, | 18:29 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, i think the goal is we're aiming to make it so other projects don't really need to "do" much of anything except maybe removing is_admin | 18:30 |
| ayoung | like server etc, but really the other projects care about admin (can do anything) and member(can do something) | 18:30 |
| ayoung | so...lets say that "admin" is composed of "member" p[lus other capabilites | 18:30 |
| ayoung | we can reflect this in the policy file rules like this: | 18:30 |
| ayoung | ... | 18:31 |
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| ayoung | "owner" : "( user_id:%(user_id)s or user_id:%(target.token.user_id)s ) or rule:domain_admin", | 18:31 |
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| ayoung | yeah, that is not member | 18:31 |
| ayoung | but the rule is composed of "( user_id:%(user_id)s or user_id:%(target.token.user_id)s ) and domain admin | 18:31 |
| ayoung | and then domain admin is defined as | 18:32 |
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| ayoung | "domain_admin" : "(role:admin and rule:domain_matches and scope:domain) or rule:cloud_admin", | 18:32 |
| ayoung | and yes, henrynash you have concerns about domain matches. | 18:32 |
| ayoung | lets put them aside for the moment | 18:32 |
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| ayoung | and then cloud_admin is our power user | 18:32 |
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| ayoung | "cloud_admin": "role:admin and domain_id:admin_domain_id and scope:domain", | 18:33 |
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| dolphm | so you're basically just rewriting the rules to compose roles together as much as possible? | 18:33 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, yes | 18:33 |
| ayoung | dolphm, the goal is this: | 18:33 |
| dolphm | ++ | 18:33 |
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| henrynash | ayoung: yes, right now I’m tryingto make sure I grasp the essence of this change to the policy file…I’m always with you up to this point…then the little doubting bird starts chipring in my ear | 18:33 |
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| ayoung | at the API level, the writer should specify as little as possible, hopefully just the role | 18:33 |
| bknudson | where does scope come from? | 18:34 |
| dolphm | henrynash: it might help if there was a diagram of the hierarchy that ayoung is producing? ayoung: sorry to make you diagram. | 18:34 |
| bknudson | I don't think we have that now. | 18:34 |
| ayoung | bknudson, it was something I added to the rules enforcement, but its in the token | 18:34 |
| ayoung | dolphm, I have that | 18:34 |
| dolphm | ooh | 18:34 |
| ayoung | 1 sec | 18:34 |
| ayoung | pauses due to gerrit slowness | 18:34 |
| lbragstad | (cloud-admin) -> (domain_admin) -> (owner)? | 18:35 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/125704/7/specs/kilo/hierarchical-roles.rst,cm | 18:35 |
| ayoung | the diagrams start at line 78 | 18:35 |
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| ayoung | lbragstad, yes | 18:35 |
| * dolphm needs to review specs. | 18:36 | |
| lbragstad | so, each project would need to define what their 'admin' can do | 18:36 |
| ayoung | lbragstad, right | 18:36 |
| ayoung | lbragstad, so we have a unified policy file | 18:36 |
| topol | so whats gonna really help here is a sample of a new policy file where we can see the benefits of the new approach (composability, whatever) and then once the value is clear selling it will be easier | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, hehe this is why there was a housekeeping item at the start of the meeting | 18:36 |
| ayoung | samuelms, you have that? | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, :) | 18:36 |
| stevemar | topol, i think thats in the patch chain | 18:36 |
| ayoung | https://github.com/samuel-ms/os.unified.policy/blob/master/src/policy.json | 18:36 |
| samuelms | ayoung, the unified policy? | 18:37 |
| ayoung | so that will need to be rewritten once we have the basic rules cleaned up | 18:37 |
| topol | stevemar, thanks. is it annotated so its new benefits are clear? | 18:37 |
| ayoung | but, then the goal is to be able to go more granular | 18:37 |
| dolphm | but that's up to the projects | 18:37 |
| ayoung | topol, read the hierarchical spec, its the centerpiece | 18:37 |
| henrynash | ayoung: so I guess my real issue with this is that I don’t see teh defintion of “logical” roles (i.e roles that specify some meangful role to a domain admin) as being something that exists in the policy file… | 18:37 |
| dolphm | or you mean more granular roles? | 18:37 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: so last i heard was that you wanted to do all this within policy.json - is that no longer the case? | 18:38 |
| ayoung | dolphm, up to the project to go more granular? Well, the default is, yes | 18:38 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, ok...so the end state is this | 18:38 |
| stevemar | topol, nope, it's all json so no comments | 18:38 |
| ayoung | we have in the keystone roles database the relationships between the roles. That info is used to generate a section at the top of the policy.json file | 18:38 |
| ayoung | that shows the inheritance chain | 18:39 |
| stevemar | topol, i think this is it: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/123509/ | 18:39 |
| jamielennox | because you should be able to define a rule that says one role is composed of these others and have that recursive | 18:39 |
| ayoung | stevemar, we can find some way to make comments if we need to | 18:39 |
| ayoung | "comment": "This is not really a rule" | 18:39 |
| jamielennox | the concept of parent shouldn't need to be stored | 18:39 |
| topol | thanks stevemar | 18:39 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, ok i think we need to continue this in -keystone and on the specs [we have some other topics we need to hit today here], but this i think has helped a lot socialize the concepts and what you're aiming for (so wrap up if you don't mind) | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i know it's helped me understand the bigger goals as well. | 18:40 |
| henrynash | ayoung: unless we are going to have domain-specific policy files….then surely the policy file is “owned” by a service and might have a) a set of raw capabilities, and (optionally) some generic groups of those capabilities….(although I always struggle with the later since I always feel these groups will end up domain-specific) | 18:40 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, thanks for the time. I just wanted people to be aware of the scope of what I was proposing, and the relationship between all this mini specs | 18:40 |
| dolphm | henrynash: ++ | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, exactly | 18:40 |
| samuelms | henrynash, ++ | 18:40 |
| ayoung | henrynash, a service should specify just the cpabailites and the roles for that capability | 18:40 |
| ayoung | its up to Keystone to manage the higher level of composition | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, we need to add comment logic to the policy rules engine anyway | 18:41 |
| ayoung | ideally, a user should be able to delegate to someone else only a subset of their capabilities | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, something the rules engine *should* support cleanly | 18:41 |
| samuelms | ayoung, , with domain-roles being defined at domain level, and the fact that domain_roles contains other roles or capabilities | 18:41 |
| samuelms | aysyd, make it possible to define access control at domain level | 18:41 |
| samuelms | ayoung, without the need of having one policy file per domain | 18:42 |
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| ayoung | henrynash, samuelms I'm not certain if domain roles fall 100% into the same mechanisms as what I am proposing. It seems to me that domain roles should be expanded prior to token creation | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | samuelms, i think that is more forward looking than this cycle, but something to keep in mind. | 18:42 |
| ayoung | OK, I surrender the conch | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | #topic New Cloud Policy on Keystone | 18:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New Cloud Policy on Keystone (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:42 | |
| ayoung | feel free to corner me for more questions | 18:42 |
| henrynash | ayoung: (agreed) | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+branch:master+topic:bp/modify-policy,n,z | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | samuelms, afaranha o/ | 18:42 |
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| samuelms | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:42 |
| samuelms | o/ | 18:43 |
| ayoung | I've butchered the hell out of their patch | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | as a heads up i'm going to keep this moving so we can cover the last couple topics, but these look to be straightforward. | 18:43 |
| samuelms | so basically we're proposing spliting the global admin we have in cloud_admin, domain_admin, project_admin | 18:43 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:43 |
| samuelms | we have a spec and a patch proposing policy changes | 18:43 |
| samuelms | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+branch:master+topic:bp/modify-policy,n,z | 18:43 |
| samuelms | ayoung is working with us on this | 18:44 |
| samuelms | and we just need more reviews on that stuff | 18:44 |
| bknudson | deployers can use whatever policy they want to or provide their own. | 18:44 |
| bknudson | what difference does it make what the default one is? | 18:44 |
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| samuelms | bknudson, yes, sure .. and they're doing this today | 18:44 |
| henrynash | samulems: so the one conceptual change between this and the previous v3policsample is that in the one I origionally wrote I think cloud_admin was a superset of domain_admin… | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, it matters so we show best practices | 18:44 |
| samuelms | bknudson, we have something more 'real' as default | 18:44 |
| afaranha | we are now working on policy refactor with Adam Young https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/keystone+branch:master+topic:policy-refactor,n,z | 18:44 |
| samuelms | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:44 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, the current model people use in production... because deployers don't want to or dont get (as per the summit session) how to write policy | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | with some rare exceptions | 18:45 |
| ayoung | henrynash, so, one thing I was wondering was how to communicate the admin domain ID. | 18:45 |
| raildo | bknudson, another this is this will be very useful for hierarchical multitenancy implementation | 18:45 |
| dolphm | bknudson: i'd rather see something more powerful as the default starting point - i have my gripes with v3cloudpolicy but they're not resolvable in the short term. | 18:45 |
| ayoung | if the file was autogenerated, we'd inject it | 18:45 |
| samuelms | dolphm, ++ | 18:45 |
| henrynash | ayoung: could od | 18:45 |
| bknudson | seems like a large spec for just saying we feel like the default policy should change. | 18:45 |
| henrynash | do | 18:45 |
| bknudson | git mv | 18:46 |
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| ayoung | We could do this: upload of policy file allows for template replacement, and then keystone gets its policy out of its store as opposed to from etc | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, there is actually a chunk of work for tests and whatnot i think | 18:46 |
| dolphm | bknudson: is it really a git mv? or did the policy need to change to become the default? i'm surprised there's no impact on tests. | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, fairly certain there is. | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | and quite a bit actually | 18:47 |
| samuelms | bknudson, well, after keystone accepts that , we plan to put such policies on every service | 18:47 |
| samuelms | bknudson, and make that spec global | 18:47 |
| bknudson | they'll need their own spec, or put it in the common specs. | 18:47 |
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| henrynash | we can’t just use v3policsample as is…it does need some changes | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | samuelms, you should propose this to the cross-project repo | 18:47 |
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| ayoung | I might well have messed up their tests. Look at older revisions of the patch to see the degree of churn | 18:47 |
| lbragstad | samuelms: do you know if the testing impact is documented in the spec? | 18:47 |
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| samuelms | morganfainberg, will do, we just want to have as much feedbacks as we can on keystone (at home) | 18:47 |
| dolphm | there are also dependent patches that touch v3 cloud policy | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | samuelms, fair enough. | 18:48 |
| dolphm | rather, required patches | 18:48 |
| samuelms | lbragstad, will check | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | so i think we need eyes on the spec - please provide feedback | 18:48 |
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| bknudson | the cloud policy file requires hardcoding the admin domain id. | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | and offer to help solve issues with the v3 policy file as you see them ( dolphm, please vocalize your gripes if possible there with that policy file ) | 18:49 |
| samuelms | lbragstad, just a small subsection, need to make it clearer. please leave a review :) | 18:49 |
| lbragstad | samuelms: will do | 18:49 |
| samuelms | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, something we should figure out if can be fixed with this process | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | ok since we have two more topics i'm going to say we continue on | 18:49 |
| samuelms | yep | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Third-Party Dashboard Spec | 18:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Third-Party Dashboard Spec (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:49 | |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: my gripe is mainly the dependency on another magical domain - because we don't have a better way to express service-level authorization | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | _sweston, o/ | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/135170/ | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | _sweston may not be here at the oment, so we can circle back if he does show up. | 18:50 |
| ayoung | what is a Third Party Dashboard? | 18:51 |
| morganfainberg | i think he wants some people to take a look at the spec, i don't have much more info | 18:51 |
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| morganfainberg | so, we can try again next week or i'll ask him to come to #openstack-keystone to discuss | 18:51 |
| ayoung | CI | 18:51 |
| henrynash | what is CI? | 18:51 |
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| bknudson | continuous integration | 18:51 |
| morganfainberg | moving on | 18:51 |
| bknudson | jenkins and stuff | 18:51 |
| samuelms | k | 18:51 |
| dolphm | what does this have to do with keystone? | 18:51 |
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| morganfainberg | #topic Assignment Split | 18:51 |
| ayoung | OK..this is a Gerrit workflow issue...got it | 18:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Assignment Split (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:51 | |
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| morganfainberg | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/130954/ | 18:51 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, o/ | 18:51 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, we'll get him to explain it in -keystone or next week. | 18:52 |
| ayoung | so if we were to introduce external LDAP tests, for example | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, and give details. | 18:52 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:52 |
| ayoung | good to go | 18:52 |
| henrynash | ok, so question has been raised as to whether teh current patch is correct in having the split of roles into their own backend | 18:52 |
| topol | 130954, also known as the beast :-) | 18:52 |
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| morganfainberg | (8min) | 18:52 |
| ayoung | henrynash, I vote yes for roles in their own backend | 18:52 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg and I have laid down a couple of arguments on each side in teh review commens | 18:52 |
| bknudson | can we get a better name than "resource" for the backend? everything is a resource. | 18:52 |
| samuelms | henrynash, ++ from me | 18:53 |
| henrynash | really want others to weight in with theie views | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | as do i | 18:53 |
| topol | bknudson+++ great point | 18:53 |
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| ayoung | question was whether to split projects and domains into two different backends, and then name the backends appropriately | 18:53 |
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| henrynash | bknudson: my only defence is a) noone coudl come up witha better name and b) in fedration language “resource” is the object you act on | 18:53 |
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| gabriel-bezerra | bknudson: ++ | 18:54 |
| ayoung | leave the actual role assignements in assignements, everything else gets its own backend based on its name | 18:54 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, this question is do roles split from assignment, where assignment is the engine doing the <attr> -> role mapping, and roles would be isolated from that | 18:54 |
| henrynash | ayoung: that’s a seperate discussion (I hope….) | 18:54 |
| ayoung | henrynash, lets have it now | 18:54 |
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| ayoung | we suggested it back when splitting identity and assignements | 18:54 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i think that is the next conversation | 18:54 |
| topol | it would seem that roles and assignemnts would fit well together. whats the counter argument? | 18:55 |
| ayoung | if we are having trouble with names, then lest call "resourece" the project backend | 18:55 |
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| henrynash | topol: see the latets commnest in the patch set | 18:55 |
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| ayoung | and if we end up splitting it, we'll put domains into their own. K? | 18:55 |
| dstanek | does splitting roles have to be in this patch anyway - seems like a follow on patch for splitting assignment and identity | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, more splitting is def. on the table, but we've got this already in line - name of the backends for the context of this disucssion is bikeshedding | 18:55 |
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| morganfainberg | so ignore name complaints for now, put those on the review. | 18:55 |
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| ayoung | morganfainberg, the question was whether to split roles from projects and domains, right? | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, no, roles from assignment, the mapping part | 18:56 |
| dolphm | i'm just going to remind everyone that i regret making roles a first class resource in the API. i wish they were just arbitrary strings owned by the policy files and using as mappings in the assignment backend. </digression> | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, domains and project split would be different. | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, that is mostly my point | 18:56 |
| samuelms | the main idea was to keep assignment.mapper and assignment.connector (what we need to do the assignment itrself, i.e the actual roles) | 18:56 |
| bknudson | dolphm: if roles were their own backend you could do that. | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, and arguments against splitting role from assignment (new assignment) | 18:56 |
| dolphm | it's hard to find a place for them in keystone because they don't belong in keystone :( | 18:56 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, they start meaning something with the autogenerated policy, | 18:57 |
| ayoung | they really are part of the policy language | 18:57 |
| lbragstad | ~3 minutes left | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | samuelms, but that is just adding another abstraction that does what we do today - meaning the assignment backend needs to then be mapped pretty much like today | 18:57 |
| henrynash | dolphm, morganfainberg: and my argument for having them separte is that they will eventually disappear…but while we have them as first class resoruces, we shouldn’t require an assignment mapping engine to be responsile for their management | 18:57 |
| dolphm | ayoung: they're an artifact of the policy files | 18:57 |
| samuelms | henrynash, ++ | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | my only other point is extra splitting down the line is easier than unsplitting things | 18:58 |
| samuelms | henrynash, I think having an example of how easy it should be to plug a new assignment backend would be help | 18:58 |
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| morganfainberg | i've posted my views as comments on the review, please read them, and weigh in on it. | 18:58 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:58 |
| ayoung | henrynash, OK, I'd argue that we should change "resource" to "proejct" and then if anything needs to be split off of that, they get their own backends | 18:58 |
| samuelms | henrynash, like a simple poc | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | further splitting such as domains and projects will be a different conversation. | 18:59 |
| ayoung | I'd like roles to be split, but I can work with it either way | 18:59 |
| henrynash | my main goal is that i REALLY want to get the split patch merged immediately after we cut K1…it’s a huge rebase to maintain…and my fingers are tired! | 18:59 |
| ayoung | I don't really need assignments split, but again, won't hurt to do it | 18:59 |
| rodrigods | henrynash, ++ | 19:00 |
| dolphm | ayoung: that's kind of where i'm at | 19:00 |
| ayoung | my feeling is that nay argument for splitting assignments really will be replicated in splitting the other pieces off. But I'm not going to hold anything up | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | i am of the opinion this is a topic that no one person can answer - so everyone, core or not, should weigh in and we'll see where the conversation goes. this is a big shift | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | and has wide implications on what we're supporting in the future | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | and that's time | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | we'll keep this conversation going in -keystone and on that review | 19:00 |
| dolphm | dun dun DUN. | 19:00 |
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| morganfainberg | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
| dolphm | #lunch | 19:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 16 19:00:46 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-12-16-18.01.html | 19:00 |
| bknudson | cliff-hanger | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-12-16-18.01.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-12-16-18.01.log.html | 19:00 |
| anteaya | dolphm: enjoy | 19:00 |
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| jeblair | howdy infra folks | 19:01 |
| dolphm | #startlunch | 19:01 |
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| morganfainberg | Next time in #openstack-meeting, we'll see whether henrynash can convince the keystone-core team ... | 19:01 |
| fungi | howdy yourself! | 19:01 |
| morganfainberg | /soap opera | 19:01 |
| anteaya | o/ | 19:01 |
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| henrynash | live on national tv... | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 16 19:01:46 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:01 |
| SergeyLukjanov | jeblair, hey, mostly ok, /me monitoring the USD-RUB :) | 19:01 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting | 19:01 |
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| AJaeger | \o/ | 19:02 |
| mmedvede | o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #link last meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-12-09-19.02.html | 19:02 |
| sweston | o/ | 19:02 |
| asselin | o/ | 19:02 |
| clarkb | ohai | 19:02 |
| nibalizer | o/ | 19:02 |
| krtaylor | o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| ianw | o/ | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | clarkb add DENY Email Third-Party CI rule to gerrit ACLs, giev Third-Party Coordinators ownership of Third-Party CI, seed Third-Party Coordinators with third party meeting attendees | 19:02 |
| clarkb | jeblair: done | 19:02 |
| anteaya | yay | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | rock on. does that more or less conclude the self-service 3pci project? | 19:03 |
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| mordred | o/ | 19:03 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: I think so. Haven't heard screaming and things seems to still be getting tested | 19:03 |
| anteaya | just the patch to remove -requests from the servers | 19:03 |
| clarkb | oh right the mail list | 19:03 |
| pleia2 | the patch is in, we need manual disabling | 19:03 |
| anteaya | which is an artifact | 19:03 |
| anteaya | cool | 19:03 |
| jeblair | pleia2: can/will you do that? | 19:03 |
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| pleia2 | jeblair: can't, I think rmlist on the server will be needed | 19:04 |
| jeblair | oh i thought we were going to leave the archives | 19:04 |
| jeblair | are they interesting? | 19:04 |
| anteaya | the plan was to leave the archives | 19:04 |
| pleia2 | we should confirm though, rmlist in the man page says it won't remove archives, but I don't know where the archives end up | 19:04 |
| pleia2 | you need rmlist -a | 19:04 |
| anteaya | not terribley but they are history | 19:04 |
| pleia2 | but we don't want that :) | 19:04 |
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| zaro | o/ | 19:05 |
| anteaya | and we did at one point reference them | 19:05 |
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| jeblair | okay, so rmlist without -a? | 19:05 |
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| jeblair | seems like they might be hard to find if that's the case | 19:05 |
| pleia2 | might just keep them on the filesystem, which is sub-optimal | 19:05 |
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| anteaya | if they aren't discoverable no point in keeping them | 19:05 |
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| pleia2 | anyone else know anything about mailman's rmlist? :) | 19:06 |
| anteaya | I just was hoping to avoid a blackhole if someone found an old breadcrumb trail | 19:06 |
| jeblair | yeah. probably we should either: a) put the list defn back and just disable subscription, etc. or b) remove everything. | 19:06 |
| clarkb | +1 to disabling subscription | 19:06 |
| fungi | alternatively, just switch the list to reject | 19:06 |
| fungi | er, that | 19:06 |
| anteaya | I'd rather disable than reject | 19:06 |
| pleia2 | so, the list sort of stays alive | 19:06 |
| anteaya | too much confusion in this space as it is | 19:07 |
| anteaya | pleia2: :( | 19:07 |
| jeblair | i don't actually think the archives are interesting, so i'm okay with either. | 19:07 |
| anteaya | they aren't interesting | 19:07 |
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| pleia2 | we can put notes up everywhere about how it's dead, but it'll still show up on lists.openstack.org and people can try to subscribe (it'll just discard them) | 19:07 |
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| anteaya | what happens if we remove everything? | 19:08 |
| fungi | is this something consensus from the third-party working group would be helpful to solicit? | 19:08 |
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| jeblair | i don't think so | 19:08 |
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| fungi | in that case, i'm fine seeing it just removed, archives and all | 19:08 |
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| clarkb | ya I guess the archives aren't particularly interesting | 19:08 |
| clarkb | just requests and calrification of requests | 19:09 |
| anteaya | okay looks like the tendency is for it to go | 19:09 |
| clarkb | I can see them being removed | 19:09 |
| jeblair | i don't think we would do that with most lists, but i think this is an unusual circumstance | 19:09 |
| anteaya | so I am fine with it going | 19:09 |
| jeblair | #action jeblair rmlist -a third-party-requests | 19:09 |
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| jeblair | #topic Priority Specs | 19:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Specs (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:09 | |
| pleia2 | thanks | 19:09 |
| jeblair | Migrate to Zanata: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/133222/ | 19:09 |
| clarkb | I reviewd that one +2 | 19:09 |
| pleia2 | who wants to +A? :) | 19:10 |
| jeblair | this is ready to merge; anyone have any last minute requests to hold off on +A for approval, otherwise it's going in | 19:10 |
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| anteaya | great work pleia2 | 19:10 |
| jeblair | sorry, hold off on +A for additional review | 19:10 |
| AJaeger | pleia2: thanks a lot! | 19:10 |
| pleia2 | woo, my first spec | 19:11 |
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| jeblair | done. yaaay! | 19:11 |
| anteaya | \o/ | 19:11 |
| pleia2 | thanks all | 19:11 |
| fungi | let the games begin | 19:11 |
| fungi | great spec, pleia2 | 19:11 |
| jeblair | this one isn't really a priority spec, but again i just want to call it out for infra review because i think we have considerable interest in the area: | 19:12 |
| jeblair | Storyboard streaming API: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/105252/ | 19:12 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Swift logs) | 19:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Swift logs) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:12 | |
| jeblair | oh, so we had that rax issue last week; did that get resolved? | 19:12 |
| fungi | seems like it | 19:13 |
| fungi | i was able to browse recently uploaded logs there | 19:13 |
| clarkb | yes I think it resolved, but I didn't track down the bug to see what they had to say | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | Thank you for the update. I was able to do a little more digging into the issue and did notice that the container in question 'infra-files' does not have the header 'X-Container-Read: infra-files-ro' associated to it. You will need to make sure that the header is added to this container. | 19:14 |
| clarkb | also there is a proposal to add this to the dg-tempest- jobs so that we can throw a bit more load at it | 19:14 |
| jeblair | that only prompts more questions, in my mind. | 19:14 |
| anteaya | clarkb: I merged that patch last night I do believe | 19:14 |
| clarkb | jeblair: hrm how did it ever work then | 19:14 |
| clarkb | anteaya: awesome | 19:14 |
| anteaya | if we are thinking of the same patch | 19:14 |
| jeblair | let's debug more later | 19:14 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Puppet module split) | 19:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Puppet module split) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:15 | |
| jeblair | asselin: ping | 19:15 |
| asselin | Hi, I wrote some patches to accelerate module splits | 19:15 |
| asselin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/140523/ | 19:15 |
| AJaeger | there're two "unusual" patches: https://review.openstack.org/140523 and https://review.openstack.org/140548 | 19:15 |
| asselin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/140548/ | 19:16 |
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| AJaeger | asselin: sorry, for interrupting ;) | 19:16 |
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| asselin | would like to get ppl's opinions. It is a bit 'different' | 19:16 |
| nibalizer | im for it | 19:16 |
| asselin | but we can go much faster by pre-approving changes | 19:16 |
| asselin | than doing the same review one by one * 50 | 19:17 |
| * anteaya notes she still has a problem with hyphens and underscores in the same repo name | 19:17 | |
| AJaeger | These patches add all the infrastructure for the projects in one bulk to make the real imports easier. | 19:17 |
| clarkb | so I disagree with the assertion that it is easier to review them all at once | 19:17 |
| nibalizer | i left some comments that i think elasticsearch is gonna split before the big patch lands so might as well rebase on it and intentionally do that | 19:17 |
| clarkb | that change is ~800 lines and that is hard to erview | 19:17 |
| nibalizer | i actually agree with clarkb | 19:17 |
| jeblair | nibalizer: elasticsearch is split | 19:17 |
| nibalizer | aha so i was right! | 19:18 |
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| nibalizer | one of the issues i've seen is that git doesn't diff/merge the yaml files very well | 19:18 |
| mmedvede | I expressed my concerns in the patch comments | 19:18 |
| anteaya | even if the resultant patches end up being fewer edits | 19:18 |
| nibalizer | so if you have 3 or more 'split outs' in flight and one lands the rest need rebases which slows everything down | 19:18 |
| anteaya | I still need to check the foundation is there and spelled correctly during my review | 19:18 |
| jeblair | mmedvede: i don't see your comments | 19:18 |
| fungi | diff/patch algorithms generally have problems with files containing lots of repetition | 19:18 |
| anteaya | so while it seems like less work for the patch owner, the work for the reviewer is actually more | 19:19 |
| mmedvede | jeblair: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/140548/ | 19:19 |
| jeblair | ah the other one :) | 19:19 |
| anteaya | since the jobs I have to confirm aren't in the patch | 19:19 |
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| jeblair | anteaya: what jobs? | 19:20 |
| anteaya | when I review a patch for a new repo creation, any jobs that are run on it | 19:20 |
| fungi | i don't think 140548 solves anything. you'll still hit merge conflicts (probably much more often) | 19:20 |
| anteaya | I confirm the name and the job name in jenkins/jobs | 19:20 |
| jeblair | anteaya: confirm it against what? | 19:21 |
| anteaya | if the group decides they want this then fine, I'm just sharing my workflow when I review repo creation patches | 19:21 |
| anteaya | the zuul/layout.yaml jobs | 19:21 |
| anteaya | and the project.yaml files | 19:21 |
| anteaya | I compare them | 19:21 |
| anteaya | and make sure there is a jenkins job and taht it does what is expected | 19:22 |
| jeblair | anteaya: there is a job that automatically ensures that every job listed in layout.yaml is defined by jjb | 19:22 |
| fungi | anteaya: we have a job which confirms that the jobs added in layout.yaml are actually configured for jenkins-job-builder | 19:22 |
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| fungi | that | 19:22 |
| jeblair | anteaya: so the only thing missing from 523 is the repo itself | 19:22 |
| fungi | it doesn't analyze the operation of the job itself, but it does at least make sure it exists | 19:22 |
| anteaya | right | 19:22 |
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| anteaya | like I said if the group wants this then I will review as required | 19:23 |
| jeblair | so when the repo is added, you can then double check that the (already defined) jobs match | 19:23 |
| anteaya | I still am not a fan of hyphens and underscores in the repo name | 19:23 |
| anteaya | right | 19:23 |
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| anteaya | which I do in new repo creation patches | 19:23 |
| jeblair | is there a technical reason for hyphens/underscores? | 19:23 |
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| nibalizer | uh kinda | 19:24 |
| anteaya | it can lead to errors | 19:24 |
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| nibalizer | we went throught this with apache | 19:24 |
| anteaya | which is why we came up with puppet-httpd | 19:24 |
| nibalizer | a class in puppet, openstack_project for example, has to be letters and underscores | 19:24 |
| nibalizer | by convention we have the repos named puppet-thing | 19:24 |
| asselin | fyi, I kept the name the same as in module. | 19:24 |
| nibalizer | so that leads to puppe-thing_thing | 19:24 |
| anteaya | asselin: I know | 19:24 |
| nibalizer | i am super strongly against trying to wedge a module rename into a split out | 19:25 |
| anteaya | nibalizer: me too | 19:25 |
| AJaeger | It's 54 repositories that asselin tries to add (if my math is right). Do we want 54 single patches? Or how do we want to do it? | 19:25 |
| nibalizer | we can rename it inside of system-config before we split it out if we really need this | 19:25 |
| anteaya | nibalizer: that would work for me | 19:25 |
| jeblair | what would we rename them to? | 19:26 |
| nibalizer | im not sure what the offending modules are named | 19:26 |
| nibalizer | let me look | 19:26 |
| fungi | names without underscores in them presumably | 19:26 |
| asselin | yes, this is just 'base work'. We can still adjust special cases, or delete some we don't want to split out in follow up patches. | 19:26 |
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| jeblair | puppet-elastic_recheck for example | 19:26 |
| mmedvede | I think the dash might be puppet module naming thing | 19:27 |
| mmedvede | #link https://docs.puppetlabs.com/puppet/latest/reference/modules_publishing.html#a-note-on-module-names | 19:27 |
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| sweston | this would also be easy to do in the split script that I am building, so if anyone thinks this is a good candidate for automation, I can include it. | 19:28 |
| fungi | for reference, the full list of affected modules is elastic_recheck, devstack_host, etherpad_lite, log_processor, mysql_backup, openstack_project, project_config, remove_nginx, ssl_cert_check, unattended_upgrades | 19:28 |
| nibalizer | i dont want to split out openstack_project or project_config | 19:29 |
| anteaya | so I am for asselin's suggestion to remove those from this patch | 19:29 |
| fungi | nibalizer: which the proposed change does, fwiw | 19:29 |
| jeblair | asselin: did you get the list from the spec? | 19:29 |
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| nibalizer | fungi: yea i noticed that and -1'd | 19:29 |
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| asselin | jeblair, no, but can update it to the spec | 19:30 |
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| asselin | if we get agreement on the direction | 19:30 |
| jeblair | asselin: yeah, let's work from the spec if we decide to do this | 19:31 |
| fungi | i'm generally not a fan of commented out functional content in revision control systems, but can get over it if the proposal has general support | 19:31 |
| asselin | will we decide now? or later? | 19:32 |
| jeblair | i think it's going to take too much time to hash out the details in this meeting | 19:32 |
| jeblair | asselin: can you work with nibalizer and anteaya to resolve remaining issues | 19:32 |
| * nibalizer nods | 19:32 | |
| asselin | jeblair, yes | 19:32 |
| jeblair | also clarkb and fungi :) | 19:33 |
| fungi | also be aware that new modules end up getting incubated in system-config rather than started separate (perhaps that needs more consideration for future direction too) | 19:33 |
| clarkb | fungi: yes I think we need to start starting separate in the near future | 19:33 |
| anteaya | fungi: oh I didn't know that | 19:33 |
| jeblair | fungi: yeah, i think we can establish policy on that once the split is done. | 19:33 |
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| clarkb | fungi: we had been doing it that way, but now there is enough momentum behind splitting we can talk about what the future looks like | 19:33 |
| jeblair | right now it would just be a distraction | 19:33 |
| fungi | a plan like this will quickly become disjoint and out of sync if we continue with that process | 19:33 |
| * nibalizer agrees with most of this ^ | 19:34 | |
| jeblair | fungi: well, if we merge everything quickly, it won't have much time to get out of sync. | 19:34 |
| fungi | this is true | 19:34 |
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| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB) | 19:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:34 | |
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| fungi | though "merge everything quickly" would mean finish the module split quickly | 19:35 |
| asselin | jeblair, sorry, regarding merging everything quickly | 19:35 |
| clarkb | thanks to the debugging efforst of jeblair nodepool is running on trusty now | 19:35 |
| mordred | the images all work now | 19:35 |
| jeblair | so i guess we can resume work on nodepool contos? | 19:35 |
| asselin | I was proposing (also in agenda) for a mini sprint | 19:35 |
| mmedvede | that reminds me, asselin - you mentioned maybe doing module-split sprint in 3rd party meeting yesterday | 19:35 |
| anteaya | yay | 19:35 |
| mordred | nodepool centos works | 19:35 |
| clarkb | jeblair: yup | 19:35 |
| mordred | at least dib nodepool centos works | 19:35 |
| mordred | and boots and everything | 19:35 |
| clarkb | I think next steps in this space are reviewing and deploying the various bug fixes that have been pushed to nodepool | 19:35 |
| mordred | now I'm writing the python version of the bash scripts I've been using to do this | 19:36 |
| clarkb | then figuring out why hpcloud didn't want to boot the images we built | 19:36 |
| mordred | so that I can make some patches to nodepool | 19:36 |
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| mordred | it seems those want to go on top of the various bugfixes clarkb mentions | 19:36 |
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| clarkb | I am also currently cleaning up old nodepool so that it can be deleted | 19:37 |
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| mordred | woot | 19:37 |
| clarkb | and just found a new nodepool bug in the process :) | 19:37 |
| jeblair | okay, so nothing blocking there? just resume speed and try to catch up on nodepool reviews? | 19:37 |
| clarkb | will file that on storyboard post meeting | 19:37 |
| clarkb | jeblair: yup | 19:37 |
| mordred | yup | 19:37 |
| jeblair | who put "Explore idea of upgrading Gerrit to ver 2.9.x" on the agenda? | 19:37 |
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| zaro | me | 19:38 |
| jeblair | #topic Explore idea of upgrading Gerrit to ver 2.9.x (zaro) | 19:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Explore idea of upgrading Gerrit to ver 2.9.x (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:38 | |
| zaro | so a few people suggested we upgrade. i wanted to get feedback on that. | 19:38 |
| zaro | ver 2.9.3 now | 19:38 |
| clarkb | zaro: I am on board with it as long as ssh stream events works | 19:38 |
| anteaya | I am in favour since it allows us to use a plugin that will list all users in gerrit | 19:39 |
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| clarkb | probably put it on review-dev and attach a bunch of event stream readers | 19:39 |
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| zaro | #link https://gerrit-documentation.storage.googleapis.com/ReleaseNotes/ReleaseNotes-2.9.3.html | 19:39 |
| anteaya | currently we can't list all users, so I can't search for all users with CI at the end | 19:39 |
| anteaya | now under 2.9 I still won't be able to, but an admin can | 19:39 |
| mordred | zaro: is the old change screen still existing on 2.9? | 19:39 |
| zaro | new reports coming that it has been fixed. | 19:39 |
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| zaro | yes it is | 19:40 |
| mordred | cool | 19:40 |
| zaro | even available in 2.10 & 2.11 | 19:40 |
| jeblair | clarkb: known bug with ssh stream events? | 19:40 |
| clarkb | jeblair: yup it was beingworked and 2.9.3 was supposed to fix it. Just proposing we actually test that specific thing | 19:40 |
| fungi | i am wholly in favor of keeping in sync with latest releases of gerrit when our dev cycle activity allows (e.g. not in the middle of release crunch) and if there are no breaking bugs we know about | 19:40 |
| mordred | sounds like it's worthwhile to explore | 19:40 |
| fungi | so, yes, with old review screen still available in it and that stream bug supposedly fixed, now seems like a good time to press forward | 19:41 |
| jeblair | the new change screen is looking _better_ than last time. i think the comments display is still too wide to read comfortably, but that's relatively minor. | 19:41 |
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| jeblair | zaro: can you get review-dev up to 2.9? | 19:42 |
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| zaro | jeblair: yeah stream events stopped working for some people after a few days. but latest repors seems to indicate that it's actually the jenkins gerrit trigger that was the cause. | 19:42 |
| jeblair | should we consider 2.10? | 19:42 |
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| zaro | #link https://groups.google.com/d/msg/repo-discuss/4va1DH520to/pDGmY7pNUG4J | 19:42 |
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| zaro | 2.10 is not released yet. | 19:42 |
| clarkb | zaro: well people do use the jenkins trigger | 19:42 |
| jeblair | gerrit itself is running 2.10-rc1-938-gd3591cd | 19:42 |
| zaro | clarkb: ahh yeah, that's true. | 19:42 |
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| fungi | and having the stream events processes pile up on on our gerrit because of their use of the plugin would be not-so-great | 19:43 |
| jeblair | zaro: you mean jenkins gerrit-trigger alone is the cause, or jenkins-gerrit-trigger is incompatible with 2.9? | 19:43 |
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| zaro | jeblair: jenkins gerrit-trigger alone is the cuase. | 19:43 |
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| jeblair | also, to be fair, i think we may have seen this once with our current version | 19:44 |
| zaro | i think clarkb and i both like the idea of using same version as gerrit-review.googlesource.com | 19:44 |
| fungi | this might then explain the hung stream events process pile-ups we've seen in the past (though it's been a while since i last spotted on) | 19:44 |
| fungi | yeah | 19:44 |
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| fungi | that would imply much more frequent upgrades | 19:45 |
| clarkb | the biggest downside with it is we would quickly suck down the latest weirdness that they do | 19:45 |
| clarkb | and we seem to have a very different use case | 19:45 |
| mordred | yah - and we have a different set of primary use cases | 19:46 |
| mordred | yah | 19:46 |
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| zaro | sorry about that last link. this one has latest reports: #link https://groups.google.com/d/msg/repo-discuss/NuFti4SVNQM/Ks8FN6xmW9AJ | 19:46 |
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| jeblair | i need more time to read about the ssh issue; let's pick this up later | 19:47 |
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| jeblair | #topic Create plugins for Gerrit <-> Storyboard integration instead of using jeepyb (zaro) | 19:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Create plugins for Gerrit <-> Storyboard integration instead of using jeepyb (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:47 | |
| zaro | me again. | 19:47 |
| * krotscheck lurks | 19:47 | |
| jeblair | zaro: can you tell us about "its" plugins briefly | 19:48 |
| jeblair | that's probably new to most of us | 19:48 |
| zaro | its is short of issue tracking system | 19:48 |
| fungi | also, for clarification, you're talking about the update_bug.py script specifically? or something else | 19:48 |
| jeblair | fungi: yeah, that i believe | 19:48 |
| zaro | its-storyboard is gerrit storyboard integration | 19:48 |
| jeblair | #link https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2000012 | 19:48 |
| jeblair | #link https://gerrit-review.googlesource.com/#/c/60590 | 19:49 |
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| jeblair | zaro: what can an its plugin do? | 19:49 |
| zaro | its-storyboard will allow users to configure updates to storyboard from updates to gerrit change (via gerrit stream events_ | 19:49 |
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| zaro | so it can add comments to storybaord and update status | 19:50 |
| fungi | if there's a plugin, why would gerrit stream-events come into play? | 19:50 |
| fungi | that seems less robust than using gerrit hooks | 19:50 |
| zaro | it gets the info to update from info in the stream events | 19:51 |
| mordred | like, from the inside-of-gerrit stream events interface, right? not by having a thing parsing stream-events over ssh | 19:51 |
| fungi | it's using the same info as what stream-events sends, but not directly subscribing to the event stream socket? | 19:51 |
| fungi | okay, that's a little more sane | 19:51 |
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| zaro | yes, you are both correct. | 19:52 |
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| mordred | zaro: just out of curiosity - what does its stand for? (looking at the code) | 19:52 |
| zaro | i'm basically done with the plugin. just need to make a change to add it to system-config | 19:52 |
| jeblair | mordred: 'issue tracking system' | 19:52 |
| jeblair | mordred: it seems to be a class of plugins which are beginning to appear in gerrit | 19:53 |
| mordred | cool | 19:53 |
| mordred | that makes sense | 19:53 |
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| jeblair | zaro: so maybe you could send an email to the -infra list describing the plugin and why that approach is better than jeepyb and hooks | 19:53 |
| zaro | i'm just finishing up with documentation and some tests. probably one final push. | 19:53 |
| zaro | jeblair: sure, can do. | 19:54 |
| mordred | one final thing - zaro, it seems that you're writing a java storyboard client library inside of that plugin - should we make a java-storyboard repo somewhere that we can release to maven and have this plugin depend on it? (in case other people want to write storyboard integration too) | 19:54 |
| fungi | that seems like an excellent idea. basically it could be the seed for a java storyboard sdk | 19:54 |
| zaro | yeah, i thought about that. would be a good idea. | 19:54 |
| mordred | it doesn't look like the StoryboardClient class is aware of gerrit at all | 19:54 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:54 |
| * mordred thinks this is neat | 19:55 | |
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| zaro | mordred: it's actually just used in the StoryboardItsFacade.java class | 19:55 |
| jeblair | zaro: yep, sounds very cool. next time, be sure to let us know the cool things you're working on before they're done. :) | 19:55 |
| fungi | i am thrilled to see some of our hackish glue replaced by sane interfaces between consenting applications | 19:55 |
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| zaro | aha, i don't finish every cool thing i start :) | 19:56 |
| * mordred is going to be amused when we have a java client lib before we have a python client lib | 19:56 | |
| clarkb | mordred: clearly we should rewrite everything in java | 19:56 |
| jeblair | #topic Strategy for upstreaming Gerrit command to ls-members of 'Registered Users' group (also zaro?) | 19:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Strategy for upstreaming Gerrit command to ls-members of 'Registered Users' group (also zaro?) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:56 | |
| * fungi starts a version of git-review in java | 19:56 | |
| zaro | me once again. | 19:56 |
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| * mordred declares today as national zaro day | 19:57 | |
| anteaya | I think this one came from my request | 19:57 |
| zaro | so anteaya was interested in having an ls-members command that would list all users in gerrit. | 19:57 |
| anteaya | again to be able to search all users | 19:57 |
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| anteaya | which we currently can't do | 19:57 |
| anteaya | or I can't | 19:57 |
| zaro | there's a could of avenues to maybe get this just wanted to explore before i start something. | 19:57 |
| fungi | well, you could via the rest api... enumerate all user ids | 19:58 |
| fungi | but that would be slow and ugly | 19:58 |
| anteaya | so I would like this but does anyone else care? | 19:58 |
| zaro | the command laready exists in a plugin. #link https://gerrit.googlesource.com/plugins/admin-console/+/master/src/main/resources/Documentation/cmd-ls-users.md | 19:58 |
| jeblair | anteaya: what's the use case? | 19:58 |
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| anteaya | find the CI account that the owner can't remember the name | 19:59 |
| anteaya | happened all the time | 19:59 |
| anteaya | with bouncing ci's back to all users, I can't search that | 19:59 |
| anteaya | since it is a virtual group | 19:59 |
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| zaro | but clarkb and fungi suggested that it should be in Gerrit core so we should propose a change there. | 19:59 |
| jeblair | anteaya: why do you care about the name? | 19:59 |
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| anteaya | if we disable or reenable them | 19:59 |
| clarkb | zaro: ya, that suggestion came from the command already existing it just doesn't work right on that group | 19:59 |
| anteaya | to find the account | 20:00 |
| anteaya | I used to search third party group often | 20:00 |
| clarkb | zaro: so ideally we can fix the existing command to work on the meta group thing | 20:00 |
| zaro | clarkb: i agree. | 20:00 |
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| fungi | more specifically, just suggested that virtual groups should have read api behaviors similar to configured groups | 20:00 |
| zaro | clarkb: yep. good suggestion. | 20:00 |
| jeblair | anteaya: but i mean you have something to go on, right? | 20:00 |
| anteaya | sometimes | 20:00 |
| anteaya | sometimes not | 20:00 |
| jeblair | anteaya: either a comment in a change, or an email address? | 20:00 |
| anteaya | I never used to | 20:00 |
| jeblair | anteaya: how can you be interested in an account but start with nothing? | 20:00 |
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| anteaya | reenable me from trinaths | 20:01 |
| anteaya | would be all I would get | 20:01 |
| fungi | anteaya: when disabling a ci account, we can use e-mail address, ssh username, account id number... | 20:01 |
| anteaya | right | 20:01 |
| anteaya | but I don't ahve those now | 20:01 |
| jeblair | anteaya: trinaths does | 20:01 |
| anteaya | this was what I used to get frm the command | 20:01 |
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| anteaya | jeblair: ha ha ha | 20:01 |
| fungi | his ci system uses a specific ssh account name | 20:01 |
| anteaya | you havn't worked with him much | 20:01 |
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| anteaya | okay well if I don't need this fine with me | 20:01 |
| anteaya | just to let you know I used to have it and don't now | 20:02 |
| anteaya | and we are over time | 20:02 |
| jeblair | anteaya: i would suggest insisting on requests with correct information | 20:02 |
| jeblair | thanks all | 20:02 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 16 20:02:35 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-12-16-19.01.html | 20:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-12-16-19.01.txt | 20:02 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-12-16-19.01.log.html | 20:02 |
| ttx | Alright! Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:02 |
| jaypipes | o/ | 20:02 |
| jeblair | o/ | 20:02 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:02 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:03 |
| ttx | russellb, jgriffith, annegentle, mikal, mordred, devananda, vishy, dhellmann : around ? | 20:03 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:03 |
| devananda | o/ | 20:03 |
| * ttx is hit by a cold, so please bear with me while I repeatedly blow my nose | 20:03 | |
| jgriffith | o/ | 20:03 |
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| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:03 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 16 20:03:25 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:03 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:03 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:03 |
| ttx | err. | 20:03 |
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| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:04 |
| ttx | one should redierct to the other | 20:04 |
| ttx | #topic Project structure reform specification | 20:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Project structure reform specification (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:04 | |
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| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138504/ | 20:04 |
| mikal | Morning | 20:04 |
| vishy | o/ | 20:04 |
| ttx | So... I posted patchset4 early on Friday, most of the discussion since then have been minor comments, not objections | 20:04 |
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| ttx | So I think this is ready for us to vote on -- would be great to come to a decision before the holiday break | 20:04 |
| jaypipes | ttx: ++ | 20:05 |
| ttx | Any last minute question we can address in-meeting ? | 20:05 |
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| dhellmann | o/ | 20:05 |
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| ttx | If none, will approve when/if that reaches a majority, or we'll discuss it again next week :) | 20:06 |
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| dhellmann | I have some reservations about how far we are lowering the bar for new projects. I like that we're lowering it, but I'd also like to include some things in this list like having an active team and such. | 20:06 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: I'd say that's for another review, when we start drafting governance documents to drive that new thing. | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | I'll leave some more detailed comments on this draft, but I wanted to raise the issue because I'm worried we're pushing the pendulum too far. | 20:07 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: that's this work item, right? | 20:07 |
| sdague | * Define new objective OpenStack project requirements (to replace old | 20:07 |
| sdague | new-programs-requirements.rst) (kilo-2 milestone, assignee tbd) | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I would agree, except that this spec specifically calls out a list of things and then lists implementing that list as a work item | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | I'm looking at the list on line 109 | 20:08 |
| ttx | dhellmann: the rules for accepting new projects will be defined in a specific document. This is just defining the direction , | 20:08 |
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| russellb | in "Recognizing all our community is a part of OpenStack" | 20:08 |
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| russellb | so we're all looking at the same thing | 20:08 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: how does one define "active" team? | 20:08 |
| sdague | yeh, I guess I took the bits in this document as high level guidance | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: I'm not sure. How did we define it before? | 20:08 |
| ttx | right, it's more the general direction we are planning to go | 20:08 |
| mikal | So, talk me through the ATC bit again | 20:09 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: I don't know. :) | 20:09 |
| russellb | i'd agree with dhellmann that the guidance listed seems to make a point about how low the bar is | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | sdague: ok, I did not take the wording that way: "we propose that those should [be] considered 'OpenStack project' ..., as long as" | 20:09 |
| mikal | I read it as saying that only projects formerly in the openstack namespace grant atc status? | 20:09 |
| sdague | dhellmann: yeh, I can see that | 20:09 |
| ttx | mikal: only projects in the openstack*/* namespace grant ATC status yes | 20:09 |
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| dhellmann | mikal: this section is talking about new base rules for bringing projects into that namespace | 20:09 |
| jaypipes | mikal: I read it as "any project in the openstack/ code namespace grants ATC status" | 20:10 |
| jaypipes | mikal: not "formerly" | 20:10 |
| mikal | I think "those projects" is ambigious then | 20:10 |
| anteaya | I am reading the same as jaypipes | 20:10 |
| mikal | And perhaps should be "those projects in the OpenStack git namespaces" | 20:10 |
| anteaya | mikal: I added a comment to that effect | 20:10 |
| mikal | anteaya: oh yeah, look at that! | 20:10 |
| anteaya | :D | 20:10 |
| anteaya | mikal: I got ya | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | and what I'm worried about is that by dropping the bar *too* low, we dilute what "openstack" so far that it is meaningless | 20:10 |
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| mikal | I definitely parse that para as saying that projects from the former program structure grant atc status | 20:11 |
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| dhellmann | this brings us way closer to my understanding of how the apache foundation works than I think we should go | 20:11 |
| mordred | well, I think definition of the word openstack is a bit multifaceted | 20:11 |
| ttx | dhellmann: but you agree that this resolution is not forcing us to vote in one way or another in the future, right ? | 20:11 |
| sdague | ok, so can we do 1 of these at a time :) | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | ttx: slippery slope | 20:11 |
| markmcclain | dhellmann: +1 | 20:11 |
| ttx | this resolution describes our intent | 20:11 |
| russellb | dhellmann: or at least punting to let other groups decide it | 20:11 |
| russellb | distros/products, and defcore, depending on how you look at it | 20:11 |
| sdague | ttx: I think a slight amount of word smithing | 20:11 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I'm fine with changing a blurb if you can propose something else | 20:12 |
| ttx | been doing that all week | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I think if we clarify that this list is a set of principles, and that the actual rules to be developed later should be based on but not limited to these things, I could be happy with this | 20:12 |
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| dhellmann | ttx; yeah, sorry, I've been fighting with setuptools all week | 20:12 |
| ttx | dhellmann: propose wording and I'll integrate it | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | ok | 20:12 |
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| sdague | s/ as long as:/ as long as they meet an objective criteria for inclusion (one of the work items below). This might include items such as:/ | 20:13 |
| sdague | dhellmann: do you think that would match the intent correctly? | 20:13 |
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| dhellmann | yeah, I like that | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | can I steal it to add to the comment I'm writing? | 20:14 |
| sdague | dhellmann: absolutely | 20:14 |
| ttx | mikal/anteaya: if you can give me the diff around "those projects" I can take the opportunity to clarify there too | 20:14 |
| russellb | though maybe it's worth clarifying ... how much more do folks see being added to that list? | 20:14 |
| jaypipes | russellb: not much, honestly. | 20:14 |
| russellb | maybe not defined in the spec, but curious what folks are thinking | 20:14 |
| anteaya | ttx I did offer a comment with a suggested phrase | 20:15 |
| mikal | ttx: I put alternate words in my comment, is that sufficient? | 20:15 |
| ttx | reading | 20:15 |
| sdague | russellb: I'm not sure I see much more being added, mostly clarification and specifics on 'the openstack way' | 20:16 |
| markmcclain | russellb: I could envision us placing some kind of viability of the proposal | 20:16 |
| ttx | mikal: sure | 20:16 |
| * ttx rev5s | 20:16 | |
| russellb | like, "we think this is sane" ? | 20:16 |
| sdague | markmcclain: it's got to be objective though | 20:16 |
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| dhellmann | I think it will be a big mistake for us to not have any criteria beyond that current list. | 20:17 |
| markmcclain | sdague: right it is objective, but if we don't do that then the results will be dictated to us | 20:17 |
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| russellb | yeah, this is the disagreement i was trying to expose .. | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | unless by "openstack way" you mean our code review, test, requirements management, etc. policies | 20:17 |
| jaypipes | what are the things that people suggest to add to that list? | 20:17 |
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| jaypipes | markmcclain: the idea is to have a completely objective set of requirements; i.e. the opposite of what we have today. | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: what items from http://governance.openstack.org/reference/incubation-integration-requirements.html would you suggest we remove? | 20:18 |
| ttx | anything else while I'm at it ? | 20:18 |
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| ttx | bah, pushed | 20:19 |
| jaypipes | dhellmann: not having a major architectural rewrite. Project's scope should represent a measured progression for OpenStack as a whole. Project should have a clear plan to prevent long-term scope duplication. | 20:19 |
| ttx | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138504/5 | 20:19 |
| markmcclain | jaypipes: I think objective is ideal but honestly if we set teh bar so low then the board and distros will apply the subjective criteria and we're left powerless to change it | 20:19 |
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| jaypipes | dhellmann: the stuff about Programs. | 20:19 |
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| jeblair | well, that's the point of tags -- to help the board and distros and users sort through the large number of projects that are/will-be part of our community | 20:20 |
| russellb | i agree with what markmcclain is saying | 20:20 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: I agree on the duplication item. I think I'm +0 on dropping the architectural rewrite. I'm less sure about the scope question; that probably should be reworded some. | 20:20 |
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| jaypipes | markmcclain: I don't see that happening. I just don't. We are the ones that are recommending tags for the board regarding maturity, trademarks, etc | 20:20 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: yeah, programs go away, but some of that may apply to the teams | 20:20 |
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| jeblair | because it's a problem now that we don't actually have a good solution for | 20:20 |
| devananda | dhellmann: major integrated projects have and continue to go through architectural rewrites often | 20:21 |
| devananda | dhellmann: i don't see how that should be a bar to entry | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: we can add tags without changing anything else | 20:21 |
| ttx | Before discussing the next step, could we vote on the first one ? | 20:21 |
| jaypipes | ttx: ++ | 20:21 |
| ttx | I agree that's a far more contentious item | 20:21 |
| zaneb | dhellmann: I'd like to see things like using oslo (where appropriate) and the global requirements list and that sort of thing | 20:21 |
| devananda | zaneb: ++ | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | devananda: yeah, that's why I'm +0 on dropping it | 20:22 |
| mordred | ttx: I'm mildly concerned that we we wind up not having a definition for how horizontal teams are managed | 20:22 |
| markmcclain | jaypipes: I wonder if our signaling via tag will be interpreted correctly when more folks live in teh openstack git namespace | 20:22 |
| mordred | ttx: not, mind you, that I expect us to grow any in the near future | 20:22 |
| ttx | mordred: most of them are code-backed those days, so I'd say, same as others | 20:23 |
| devananda | following common/expected processes (oslo, pbr, sphinx doc, etc) - this is not explicitly called out | 20:23 |
| mordred | ttx: it's possible we don't need codification there | 20:23 |
| jaypipes | markmcclain: I don't think it can get much worse than the existing binary integrated-release stuff, frankly. | 20:23 |
| devananda | but is what part of "follow the OpenStack way", in my opinion | 20:23 |
| sdague | markmcclain: so here's the thing, distros and others are making those calls already | 20:23 |
| jaypipes | mordred: why do we have to have a definition of how horizontal teams are managed>? | 20:23 |
| russellb | well ... they're generally based on the integrated release, that's the base guidance | 20:24 |
| mordred | jaypipes: not saying we do - only that we might | 20:24 |
| jaypipes | mordred: why does the TC need to micromanage that? | 20:24 |
| zaneb | devananda: ++ maybe the "OpenStack way" and the "four Opens" should be separate entries in that list | 20:24 |
| jeblair | ttx, mordred: some of them currently have scope beyond "what lands in their repos" | 20:24 |
| jeblair | jaypipes: ^ | 20:24 |
| markmcclain | jaypipes: agreed…I just want to make sure we're not abdicating power that we wont be able to get back if we realize we're wrong | 20:24 |
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| mordred | but largely, if we have: "will let multiple different teams potentially address the same problems" - what about when that's not desirable (we don't really want to grow two docs teams or two infra teams) | 20:24 |
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| russellb | mordred: i noted that on the review | 20:24 |
| mordred | cool. I'll go look at that | 20:25 |
| markmcclain | sdague: agreed, but we do box them in a bit because of how clear we designate stuff (even if we all agree needs work) | 20:25 |
| jaypipes | mordred: because ... common sense and communication? | 20:25 |
| devananda | zaneb: it gets tricky if we codify all of those. example: should every project use flask or pecan? this is not obvious. should they all use oslo? probably less contentious. | 20:25 |
| russellb | mordred: i haven't gone back to respond to ttx's response though | 20:25 |
| ttx | mordred: that was addressed in one of the comments. When we say "open development" that also means "collaborating" | 20:25 |
| devananda | zaneb: so while it's worth describing the expectation, I don't think it's good to state specific tools | 20:25 |
| sdague | markmcclain: distros and ops are going to adopt parts of openstack because we stamp it, but because it's actually good stuff | 20:25 |
| mordred | jaypipes: yah - it's entirely possible the answer is "we don't think it's a problem and will dael with it when it is" | 20:25 |
| devananda | zaneb: otherwhise we'll just end up with a meta requirements list | 20:25 |
| ttx | mordred: which is most cases would prevent duplicate horizontal teams if useless | 20:25 |
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| devananda | zaneb: and have to change it later | 20:25 |
| ttx | mordred: and yes | 20:26 |
| zaneb | devananda: yeah, I'd be happy with something vague ('follow the OpenStack way'), but I gather a lot of folks want only objective criteria | 20:26 |
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| ttx | well, since now those are more inspirational than a final list of criteria, I think we should be good | 20:26 |
| sdague | zaneb: I think mostly we'll want to call out what that is in the follow up | 20:26 |
| ttx | sdague: ++ | 20:26 |
| zaneb | +1 | 20:27 |
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| dhellmann | right, I just want to leave room for actual discussion in that, and not paint ourselves into a corner with *this* spec | 20:27 |
| ttx | I think it's appropriately vague now :) | 20:28 |
| sdague | yep | 20:28 |
| markmcclain | sdague: right that's what we want ops deploying it because it is good stuff, I'm wondering if tagging is delays our decision proces until too late | 20:28 |
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| ttx | so please cast your vote and we can start discussing what level the bar should exactly be set at. | 20:29 |
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| russellb | i want to give it another in depth read and consideration, i'll vote tomorrow | 20:29 |
| ttx | because yes, while everyoen agrees there shoud be some bar, your mileage may vary | 20:29 |
| ttx | russellb: ack | 20:29 |
| ttx | I'll leave it open today anyway to give annegentle a chance to register her vote | 20:30 |
| ttx | since she +1ed the previous rev and couldn't attend the meeting | 20:31 |
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| ttx | So, assuming this is approved, next step here is to communicate about the proposed way forward more heavily, so that it doesn't take anyone by surprise. | 20:32 |
| mikal | I think we'll need to do that both sides of the holiday break obviously | 20:32 |
| ttx | Then we'll probably tackle the bar height | 20:32 |
| mikal | If we do it this week and next we'll miss a bunch of people | 20:32 |
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| dhellmann | mikal: ++ | 20:32 |
| ttx | mikal: yes | 20:32 |
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| ttx | work item says end of dec / start of jan | 20:33 |
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| mikal | ttx: oh, fair point | 20:33 |
| mikal | What about ttx doing an openstack hour youtube thing explaining it? | 20:33 |
| mikal | (in addition to email etc etc) | 20:33 |
| ttx | ew | 20:33 |
| fungi | you could wear a fun hat | 20:33 |
| mordred | fungi: I was going to say that | 20:34 |
| mikal | Sock puppets? | 20:34 |
| ttx | more likely a giant handkerchief | 20:34 |
| Rockyg | +1 for ttx on youtube | 20:34 |
| mordred | fungi: although I was going to say pointy | 20:34 |
| ttx | well, we could certainly do some IRC town hall thing | 20:34 |
| fungi | resurrect the irc all-hands | 20:34 |
| jeblair | i think email is quite enough | 20:34 |
| ttx | so that people can throw tomatoes at me | 20:34 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 20:34 |
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| fungi | yeah, an ml thread should be fine | 20:35 |
| ttx | but yeah, blog+email is probably the most async | 20:35 |
| jeblair | particularly because it can be drafted and comments solicited | 20:35 |
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| ttx | Last questions/ comments on this topic ? | 20:35 |
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| ttx | We can go back to it in Open Discussion, time permitting | 20:36 |
| ttx | #topic A look at proposed openstack-specs | 20:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "A look at proposed openstack-specs (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:36 | |
| sdague | ttx: thanks for all your efforts here | 20:36 |
| ttx | sdague: thx! | 20:36 |
| ttx | There are two openstack-specs proposals up for review: | 20:37 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/openstack-specs+branch:master,n,z | 20:37 |
| ttx | So far I wouldn't describe them as heavily reviewed yet | 20:37 |
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| ttx | TC members have +2/APRV on that repo | 20:37 |
| ttx | so we definitely should | 20:37 |
| * mikal adds those to his review queue | 20:37 | |
| ttx | that said, we need PTLs to review those (TC is mostly there to collect votes) | 20:38 |
| ttx | not sure on the way forward there | 20:38 |
| Rockyg | can you/we socialize the hog guidelines to the ops ml for a couple of weeks before finalled? | 20:38 |
| ttx | I thihn the fly below radar of most teams | 20:38 |
| * mordred has added to watch list | 20:38 | |
| Rockyg | s/hog/log/ | 20:38 |
| ttx | "I think they fly" I mean | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | ttx: should we bring it up at the project meeting? | 20:38 |
| mikal | ttx: mention those reviews in the release meeting perhaps? | 20:38 |
| mikal | dhellmann: jinx! | 20:38 |
| ttx | dhellmann, mikal: yes, was thinking we could have some recurring item | 20:39 |
| dhellmann | mikal: thought thief! | 20:39 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I like that. | 20:39 |
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| ttx | OK, I'll make that happen, mention it in open discussion in meeting today and start doing that more regularly in futur emeetings | 20:40 |
| mikal | ttx: sounds like a plan to me | 20:40 |
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| Rockyg | thanks! | 20:40 |
| ttx | That brings us post-holiday season probably on those. | 20:40 |
| ttx | Is any of those so urgent they can't wait until new year ? | 20:41 |
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| ttx | I guess not | 20:42 |
| ttx | #action Cross-project meeting chair (so far ttx) shall put openstack-specs on the Cross-project meeting agenda as a recurring item | 20:43 |
| ttx | #topic Housekeeping changes | 20:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Housekeeping changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:43 | |
| ttx | * sort oslo libraries (https://review.openstack.org/140934) | 20:43 |
| ttx | For that one, I'd say, whatever is the most convenient for updates. Will approve tomorrow morning unless someone -1s | 20:43 |
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| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:44 | |
| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 20:45 |
| ttx | Something we should be doing that we didn't do ? | 20:45 |
| zehicle | o/ | 20:45 |
| ttx | zehicle: go for it | 20:45 |
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| zehicle | thanks - a reminder that for the bylaws changes, we have need for people to vote to get quorum | 20:46 |
| zehicle | does not matter if they are for or against really, we need votes or everyone is effectively "against" | 20:46 |
| zehicle | and the voice of the people who bother to show up will not be heard | 20:46 |
| zehicle | so, please remember to "rock the vote" or similar as we get closer | 20:47 |
| * zehicle ends PSA | 20:47 | |
| ttx | indeed, that vote will need significant publicity to reach quorum | 20:48 |
| zehicle | part of this vote includes lowering quorum based on historical data | 20:48 |
| ttx | For the next steps of the project structure reform, from my various discussions with people I expect the most contentious item will be the definition (or lack thereof) of a compute-{core,base,thing,layer,ring}. The spec only says we will define tags, and leaves that question for the future | 20:48 |
| dhellmann | zehicle: do you have a link handy to the published version of the final proposed bylaws change? | 20:49 |
| * dhellmann has a local meetup this week | 20:49 | |
| russellb | those word docs were so hard to read ... | 20:49 |
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| ttx | I expect the exact definition of the bar to entry to not be that contentious (famous last words) | 20:49 |
| dhellmann | russellb: yeah | 20:49 |
| russellb | should have been plain text, reviewed via gerrit :) | 20:50 |
| sdague | russellb: who knew that ms word is a bad revision control system :) | 20:50 |
| russellb | ikr? | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I think I probably want that bar a fair bit higher than a lot of other people | 20:50 |
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| devananda | ttx: I commend your optimism :) | 20:50 |
| ttx | dhellmann: higher than Jay, as far as I can tell | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I suspect others, too, but I may be less optimistic than you :-) | 20:51 |
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| devananda | I probably want the bar higher than some, too. | 20:51 |
| ttx | It will be easier to tackle those issues once we have an idea of where we are going (the spec) and we cut the problems into smaller pieces | 20:51 |
| sdague | so, probably a worth while part of the setting the bar conversation is to make sure we keep the "why" around | 20:51 |
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| devananda | ttx: do you have a format in mind for that discussion? | 20:51 |
| dhellmann | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/131422/1/reference/incubation-integration-requirements.rst was my earlier stab at lowering the bar a little | 20:52 |
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| ttx | devananda: I think we can work from proposals and counter-proposals | 20:52 |
| dhellmann | sdague: ++ | 20:52 |
| devananda | ttx: I think seeing a few new tags in a concrete proposal would help set the conversation | 20:52 |
| ttx | devananda: first ML thread, then opiniojnated proposals, then consensual proposal, then vote | 20:52 |
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| ttx | devananda: basically what we followed for the the spec. Except we had to insert a face-to-face-or-video explanation as step 2.5 | 20:53 |
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| ttx | so that we get a better idea of what was consensual and what was not | 20:53 |
| russellb | which i think in the spirit of openness, we may want to try to avoid that if we can | 20:54 |
| ttx | agreed | 20:54 |
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| ttx | sdague: yes, in the end all that's left of this spec document might just be the "why" :) | 20:55 |
| sdague | yeh | 20:55 |
| sdague | dhellmann: I'm going to throw onto your review | 20:55 |
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| dhellmann | sdague: comments, and not rotten tomatoes, I hope | 20:56 |
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| ttx | OK, if nobody else has a comment, we can close early. I'd welcome chairing help for the next meeting if some of you can stay around. Not in the best shape to have a difficult discussion right now | 20:57 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: yep | 20:58 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I'll be there | 20:58 |
| ttx | dhellmann: cool. If I pass out, just continue and ignore me | 20:58 |
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| ttx | #endmeeting | 20:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 16 20:58:59 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-12-16-20.03.html | 20:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-12-16-20.03.txt | 20:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-12-16-20.03.log.html | 20:59 |
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| ttx | courtesy PTL ping: dhellmann, morganfainberg, notmyname, eglynn, nikhil_k, thingee, asalkeld, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov, mikal: around ? | 21:00 |
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| morganfainberg | o/ | 21:01 |
| notmyname | here | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:01 |
| eglynn | o/ | 21:01 |
| ttx | not forgetting mikal today | 21:01 |
| jogo | o/ | 21:01 |
| asalkeld | o/ | 21:01 |
| mestery | o/ | 21:01 |
| mfisch | o/ | 21:01 |
| morganfainberg | hehe | 21:01 |
| notmyname | ttx: thanks. your courtesy ping is very helpful | 21:01 |
| mestery | notmyname: ++ | 21:01 |
| sweston | o/ | 21:01 |
| mestery | thanks ttx! | 21:01 |
| mikal | Hi | 21:01 |
| * fungi waves | 21:01 | |
| ttx | #startmeeting crossproject | 21:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 16 21:01:49 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:01 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'crossproject' | 21:01 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 21:01 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 21:01 |
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| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting | 21:02 |
| ttx | Do we have joehuang around | 21:02 |
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| ttx | Let's invert the two agenda items then to give him a chance to join | 21:03 |
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| ttx | #topic Providing an alternative to shipping default config file (ttx) | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Providing an alternative to shipping default config file (ttx) (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:03 | |
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| ttx | There was a recent thread on the operators ML complaining about the removal of default config files from git: | 21:03 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-operators/2014-December/005658.html | 21:03 |
| ttx | That thread was derailed to talk about packaging, but I think the original concern is valid: default config files have value to operators and we removed them | 21:04 |
| ttx | Now, we removed them for a reason: it was pretty painful to keep them in sync and often resulted in various failures | 21:04 |
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| dhellmann | can we build them in the docs, instead of the source tree? that would make them available but not gum up the git repos with more automated changes or files that are out of date | 21:04 |
| ttx | So my question is, what can we offer (ideally a standard solution) to give operators those files back, while not restoring the original problem | 21:04 |
| ttx | dhellmann: fung i suggested something of that vein yes | 21:04 |
| ttx | fungi* | 21:04 |
| dhellmann | and by docs, I mean the developer docs so they are updated on every commit | 21:04 |
| ttx | generate and post the sample as part of dev docs | 21:05 |
| dhellmann | although it certainly wouldn't hurt to add them to the other docs as well | 21:05 |
| notmyname | aren't more docs moving into the source tree? | 21:05 |
| asalkeld | +1 | 21:05 |
| fungi | ahh, yes zigo said he wasn't going to be around for the meeting, but wanted to pass along a recommendation of having the sdist step generate sample configs to include in the tarballs | 21:05 |
| mfisch | that would work for me for what I need the sample files for | 21:05 |
| morganfainberg | fungi, that was my view, if sdist can do that, i'd like it there | 21:05 |
| dhellmann | mfisch: which solution would work for you? | 21:05 |
| ildikov | dhellmann: I would suggest to add it OS-manuals | 21:05 |
| ttx | so the problem with the "just have sdist run tools/config/generate_sample.sh -b . -p nova -o etc/nova" is that the result heavily depends on the env it's being run on | 21:05 |
| dhellmann | ildikov: the problem there is that isn't rebuilt on every merge into a project | 21:05 |
| ildikov | dhellmann: I think that would be clearer as we have already a whole config reference there | 21:05 |
| mfisch | dhellmann: anywhere in a tree I can get to | 21:05 |
| ttx | I like the docs post because we run it | 21:06 |
| fungi | and while i agree, i think having the code doc build step also generate them and include them somewhere would be a useful addition | 21:06 |
| morganfainberg | i'm fine with either solution | 21:06 |
| toabctl | some projects have a tox genconfig env for building the config sample | 21:06 |
| mfisch | which sometimes works | 21:06 |
| morganfainberg | i'd like to evict the sample config from keystone if we had a better alternative | 21:06 |
| morganfainberg | such as docs | 21:06 |
| ildikov | dhellmann: yes, I know, it just messes up a bit the purpose of each docco we have | 21:06 |
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| dhellmann | fungi: having the sdist build it might be challenging, since the tool uses entry points to find the options so the code has to be "installed" for it to work | 21:06 |
| morganfainberg | but i know until we have that alternative keystone will continue to do the manual updates prior to releases. | 21:07 |
| russellb | one sucky thing is after you've run it, you have a file sitting around that may or may not be accurate anymore | 21:07 |
| dhellmann | also it needs the dependencies installed | 21:07 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ++ | 21:07 |
| fungi | ttx: we control the environment for the sdist built in our post jobs which generates our tarballs | 21:07 |
| russellb | and having to run tox every time you want to look at a config reference is annoying | 21:07 |
| mfisch | +1 russellb | 21:07 |
| bknudson | having the sample config in tree is kind of handy since it's easier to see what the output will look like in a review. | 21:07 |
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| ttx | fungi: right, but encouraging others to run it might be counterproductive | 21:07 |
| jogo | would having 'tox -egenconfig' be a standard help at all? | 21:07 |
| fungi | dhellmann: we already do when we run sdist | 21:07 |
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| mfisch | and keeping your mac up to date on 10 different requirements files from 10 projects daily is not cool | 21:07 |
| ildikov | dhellmann: maybe we can refer the developer docs from manuals | 21:07 |
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| dhellmann | fungi: oh, because we're running it under "tox -e venv"? | 21:07 |
| mfisch | I look at these about once every few weeks | 21:07 |
| fungi | dhellmann: yep | 21:07 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, if it was generated like docs - and visble that would be fine as well, -edocs instead of -egenconfig vs in-tree | 21:07 |
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| ttx | jogo: that would add a bit of predictability for sure | 21:07 |
| fungi | ttx: i took the recommendation not as suggesting consumers rerun sdist | 21:08 |
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| dhellmann | fungi: ok, in that case as long as we're doing it in our build and not when someone checks out the source and runs "python setup.py sdist" I think it's ok | 21:08 |
| fungi | ttx: but rather that the sdist _we_ build could include those files | 21:08 |
| ttx | Ideally we would adopt a common solution, so that ops don't have to find out the way each project decided to make that default config file available | 21:08 |
| fungi | via whatever mechanism | 21:08 |
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| morganfainberg | ttx +1 for common solution | 21:08 |
| mfisch | +1 for common too | 21:09 |
| dhellmann | fungi: I wonder if that would require any manifest trickery, but that's an implementation detail | 21:09 |
| morganfainberg | that doesn't require gating on a static file in the tree. | 21:09 |
| fungi | and yes, that's what i took as the reason for discussing it in the cross-project meeting. standardizing on a mechanism and location | 21:09 |
| dhellmann | ttx: ++ | 21:09 |
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| ildikov | jogo: for instance in Ceilometer we have it | 21:09 |
| ttx | fungi: I know zigo runs sdist to rebuild tyarballs from git, that's why I mentioned it | 21:09 |
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| dhellmann | fungi: fwiw, some projects have not adopted the new config generator, and that needs project-specific args, so we probably want a tox.ini or shell script interface | 21:10 |
| fungi | ttx: actually he said he doesn't | 21:10 |
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| fungi | ttx: he tars up the contents from git plus files added to create the debian source packages | 21:10 |
| ttx | fungi: ah. pretty sure he used to though | 21:10 |
| dhellmann | fungi: in fact, probably a shell script called by tox, so you can "tox -e venv -- tools/genconfig.sh" and other devs can "tox -e genconfig" | 21:10 |
| fungi | dhellmann: agreed, but i think where the opposition on the ops list is coming from is "i don't want to have to run something to generate sample configs, just tell me where to get them from" | 21:11 |
| ttx | So I think tox -e genconfig + inclusion in dev docs sounds like the way to go | 21:11 |
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| dhellmann | fungi: right, I'm just proposing the common API for our infrastructure to use to build them when packaging | 21:11 |
| sdague | fungi: also, it's not always simple to set up the env | 21:12 |
| fungi | dhellmann: sure, that works for me as a solution | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | update the package job to call "tox -e venv -- tools/genconfig.sh" before "tox -e venv -- python setup.py sdist" | 21:12 |
| fungi | sdague: agreed, that's probably the largest reason why they don't want to have to run something to generate them | 21:12 |
| fungi | dhellmann: yep. and add a similar step to the doc build job for the individual projects too | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | right | 21:13 |
| ttx | I'd say the next step is a openstack-specs spec | 21:13 |
| fungi | and then hyperlink those files in the template or something | 21:13 |
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| dhellmann | or literalinclude | 21:13 |
| ttx | so that we can get ops and PTLs +1s on it | 21:13 |
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| Rockyg | Ops need to be able to get previous versions, too. | 21:13 |
| Rockyg | not just current and release | 21:14 |
| dhellmann | Rockyg: previous versions with what granularity? | 21:14 |
| jeblair | are we sure it's a good idea to make building an sdist more complicated? | 21:14 |
| fungi | Rockyg: we'd need a definition of "previous versions" | 21:14 |
| ttx | jeblair: I suggested having tox -e genconfig + inclusion in dev docs | 21:14 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: this would be an optional step our build job would do, and that wouldn't be done by someone building an sdist by hand elsewhere | 21:14 |
| Rockyg | So, if a team is running say a month behind the head of tree... | 21:14 |
| jlk | things with stable/<versoin> ? | 21:14 |
| sdague | jeblair: how much more complicated is sdist made by it? | 21:14 |
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| jeblair | i mean, everyone knows how to build an sdist, right? except we're proposing that _openstack_ have a different way of building them, so if you want to build it and get the same content, you have to do something extra | 21:14 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: well, that's a fair point | 21:15 |
| toabctl | Rockyg: previous versions are always buildable from git. and the doc changes are already documented between openstack releases. | 21:15 |
| ttx | Rockyg: that's a good argument in favor of storing them in tarballs | 21:15 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: what's the reason not to generate them in the sdist step? | 21:15 |
| Rockyg | right. and the ops are saying they don't want to build the sample configs from git | 21:15 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: in order for the config generator to work the code for the project and all of its dependencies need to be installed so the entry points work | 21:16 |
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| Rockyg | Yes. Tarballs will probably satisfy most of the devops and the ones it doesn't are likely very capable of rebuilding from git | 21:16 |
| ttx | jeblair: it's because random people running python setup.py sdist will end up with a partial config file | 21:16 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: if I check out a git tree and run "python setup.py sdist" it shouldn't install anything | 21:16 |
| fungi | if someone wanted to build a service that generated all the iterated changes for sample configs for each project and stored them in a git repository, that would be one solution to the "history" problem i guess | 21:16 |
| sdague | dhellmann: hmph, is there a way around that ? | 21:16 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: got it | 21:16 |
| mfisch | sorry catching up but previous versions are awesome | 21:16 |
| dhellmann | sdague: nothing reliable | 21:16 |
| mfisch | that way I can see when an item was added or a default changed | 21:16 |
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| mdorman | +1 on prev. versions | 21:17 |
| mdorman | on some granularity | 21:17 |
| Rockyg | fungi: that was what one ops guy proposed | 21:17 |
| fungi | we just don't want to be including autogenerated sample configs into project git repos if we can help it. and if we do it would need to be something along the lines of the reqs/tx proposal changes | 21:17 |
| ttx | so to have previous versions, the easiest is to store it in tarball | 21:17 |
| sdague | so... is milestone level granular enough? | 21:17 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: what if we publish the files with a version number matching the sdist, but not *in* the sdist? | 21:17 |
| mdorman | i like the idea of a sample configs git repo | 21:17 |
| ryansb | +1 | 21:17 |
| mfisch | that would work for us | 21:17 |
| dhellmann | mdorman: I think that's a reasonable idea, but it's orthogonal to publishing the default config | 21:18 |
| ildikov | mfisch: the os-manuals config reference has sections for each project which show changes | 21:18 |
| mdorman | sdague: i would think milestone level would be good, assuming there aren’t config changes w/in a milestone (which i would hope not) | 21:18 |
| fungi | and something anyone can generate and publish as an advisory dataset with or without our assistance | 21:18 |
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| sdague | mdorman: well there are config changes all the time | 21:18 |
| dhellmann | mdorman: all config changes happen between milestones, that's when the development happens :-) | 21:19 |
| sdague | can you explain "assuming there aren’t config changes w/in a milestone" | 21:19 |
| mdorman | maybe i misunderstand what milestone means | 21:19 |
| mfisch | ildikov: thats been discussed in the thread, its wrong many times, Ive filed bugs | 21:19 |
| ttx | mdorman: it's a tag | 21:19 |
| eglynn | mdorman: we've no way of holding back config changes from master until the milestone is cut | 21:19 |
| fungi | mdorman: config changes happen when libraries get updated which provide new config options into the servers, for example | 21:19 |
| sdague | so we have 3 milestones (roughly ever 7 weeks) then a release | 21:19 |
| mdorman | oh, ok. i thoguht milestone == icehouse, juno,kilo, etc. | 21:19 |
| sdague | so if at the milestones we had samples out, would that be granluar enough | 21:19 |
| ildikov | mfisch: it can happen that it's not perfectly up to date, but then we should improve that process how it is updated | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | ah, no, those are releases | 21:19 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: interesting; at least there's a clear delivery artifact and process, though perhaps less convenient to consume? actually i don't know about that last part. maybe it's more convenient. | 21:20 |
| Rockyg | maybe a notification on each merge that modifies the config? That's really waht ops needs. What changed and which build it changed in. | 21:20 |
| joehuang | hello, joehuang is just being able to logon the irc. the network is not stable to connect to freenode. | 21:20 |
| mfisch | ildikov: not perfectly up to date does not explain the bugs. sorry | 21:20 |
| fungi | mdorman: this is part of where the development workflow pain is coming from... new oslo lib has new config options which suddenly cause teh sample configs on every project on multiple branches to be out of date | 21:20 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: yeah, as a separate file you can curl or whatever. And we can link to the directory full of them from the docs, and not have to make the docs build more complex either | 21:20 |
| notmyname | it seems like all the things being asked for (by users of the config files) are solved by "keep a config file in the source tree". the pain point is devs keeping it up to date? | 21:20 |
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| fungi | Rockyg: the changes which alter sample configuration aren't in the same projects which need the sample configs | 21:20 |
| ttx | joehuang: we inverted the two agenda topics. Currently discussing default config files | 21:21 |
| mdorman | fungi: understood, thanks | 21:21 |
| ildikov | mfisch: ok, I will check the bugs | 21:21 |
| russellb | the pain came from the config file including options from other libs | 21:21 |
| russellb | (the pain for devs) | 21:21 |
| Rockyg | fungi yeah, it's a bitch;-) | 21:21 |
| ttx | joehuang: should be back on cascading in 10-&5min | 21:21 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: some of the configuration options are defined in libraries, not under the control of the app, and so the file can become out of date without the app devs realizing it | 21:21 |
| jeblair | notmyname: perhaps -- we could have robots keep it up to date, though there's also the idea that autogenerated content shouldn't be in vcs. | 21:21 |
| russellb | otherwise it's straight forward to auto generate it | 21:21 |
| sdague | notmyname: right the pain is because libraries can define options | 21:21 |
| harlowja | klindgren_ pinnnng | 21:21 |
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| sdague | so the valid config for a project depends on the library versions | 21:21 |
| jogo | RESTful config-files-as-a-service | 21:21 |
| mfisch | would it be a problem to generate it into another repo to not pollute yours? | 21:21 |
| joehuang | sorry it takes half an hour for me to connect to the channel | 21:21 |
| mfisch | a cronjob that generates them into github solves most of my needs | 21:22 |
| mfisch | but not everyone | 21:22 |
| mdorman | +1 yeah it seems like a separate sample config repo is a goodsolution for both sides? | 21:22 |
| jeblair | but we could certainly have the proposal bot keep it up to date for each project-branch combo | 21:22 |
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| sdague | so that would be the post merge publish | 21:22 |
| morganfainberg | jeblair, we could just have proposal bot put the configs into the main trees as well | 21:22 |
| sdague | jeblair: yeh, though if we did that we need to make it so it's basically a noop test job | 21:22 |
| sdague | because these are going to change *a lot* | 21:22 |
| jeblair | morganfainberg: yeah, that's what i was thinking; the 'other git repo' convo started mid stream in my response :) | 21:23 |
| fungi | jeblair: i wonder what we'd trigger that on... or just a periodic job like we do for translation updates? | 21:23 |
| dhellmann | morganfainberg: adding them to the tree after the merge means they are out of date if you check out the version with the merge | 21:23 |
| morganfainberg | and while i know it's not a snappy turn around (instantaneous) it does meet our current needs. | 21:23 |
| dhellmann | except that the config in any given repo will be wrong after an option is changed or added | 21:23 |
| sdague | it's also only accurate if you have the same library versions | 21:23 |
| dhellmann | and that | 21:23 |
| dhellmann | the sample config is not based on the application; it does not belong inside the application | 21:23 |
| jeblair | isn't that true for making it a release artifact as well? | 21:24 |
| bknudson | same library versions as what? | 21:24 |
| morganfainberg | i think it would be accurate enough, maybe even add a "last updated <XXXX>" line? | 21:24 |
| fungi | dhellmann: yeah, i think it's never really up to date necessarily anyway, and the only way we enforced it mostly before was to bring development on a project to a halt until it got corrected | 21:24 |
| sdague | bknudson: as the build | 21:24 |
| dhellmann | bknudson: if oslo.messaging adds an option, your config file is out of date | 21:24 |
| morganfainberg | so you know what the range that change spans? | 21:24 |
| mfisch | given a time reference I can go back to the project repo and see the change | 21:24 |
| dhellmann | fungi: yeah, it was easier when all of the options were inside the app because of the incubated code | 21:24 |
| mfisch | "why guy changed this default from A to B and whats the commit log say as to why" | 21:24 |
| jeblair | sdague, fungi: i was proceeding under the assumption that infrequent repo updates of the config file would be okay, based on the idea that publishing them with tarballs was okay. | 21:24 |
| sdague | bknudson: the version of all the libraries that have options is also needed in addition to the version of the project source | 21:24 |
| bknudson | seems like that would always be the case since a range of library versions are supported | 21:24 |
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| morganfainberg | so mfisch, as long as you know when they were updated and you have timeframes on the updates - that meets your needs? | 21:25 |
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| fungi | jeblair: that seems fine to me too. i'm not convinced that up-to-the-minute sample configs were part of the request | 21:25 |
| dhellmann | bknudson: true, which is why the most accurate way to get a sample file is to make it yourself using the versions of all of the libs you're running on your system -- but that's much less convenient | 21:25 |
| mfisch | ideally I'd have every single change but I could deal with a time reference | 21:25 |
| morganfainberg | X change spans commit aef123 to fff342 | 21:25 |
| toabctl | hm. if ops are running code from git they *must* generate their config by their own.because the combination of config options is different depending what you have installed. so even if there is a repository with the config files for the different projects I think it's very unlikely that the libs used to generated the configs have the same version than in the ops environemtn | 21:25 |
| fungi | mfisch: also, again, there's no discrete mapping from a sample configuration back to a commit in a particular git repo | 21:26 |
| dhellmann | toabctl: right. I thought the separate repository was for hand-crafted examples of specific use cases ("here's nova with qpid" and "here's nova with rabbit") | 21:26 |
| ttx | so the config has b | 21:26 |
| morganfainberg | toabctl, remember these are strictly sample configs - an example reference. you don't need them to configure a service. most ops/deployers run from a stable release afaik | 21:26 |
| ttx | er | 21:26 |
| asalkeld | maybe the libraries need their own config files | 21:26 |
| russellb | asalkeld: +1 | 21:26 |
| dhellmann | fungi: we could have the config generator put version strings at the top in comments | 21:26 |
| bknudson | having the library versions in the sample config would be good. | 21:27 |
| mdorman | +1 | 21:27 |
| jogo | do we have a clear idea of what the constraints of the issue are. What specific cases are we trying to address. As there may not be a one size fits all answer | 21:27 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson +1 | 21:27 |
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| fungi | dhellmann: does that get you info on where each config option came from and the history of the code which determined it? | 21:27 |
| toabctl | bknudson: +1 | 21:27 |
| ildikov | jogo: +1 | 21:27 |
| ttx | jogo: yes, I feel like we won't find the solution here, the problem space is more complex than it seems | 21:27 |
| dhellmann | fungi: not entirely, no, but we know where each option comes from so I think we can include that in the output if we don't already | 21:27 |
| dhellmann | by "know" I mean we know which entry point | 21:28 |
| Rockyg | use case: bug in library. want to update. Does it change the config? | 21:28 |
| dhellmann | ttx: so, someone should work up a spec? | 21:28 |
| fungi | dhellmann: i was referring to mfisch's request to be able to figure out why a config option changed by looking at the sample config itselg | 21:28 |
| ttx | Anyone volunteering to summarize the problem and the perveived solutions ? | 21:28 |
| fungi | itself | 21:28 |
| ttx | dhellmann: yes | 21:28 |
| jogo | Rockyg: that is a great example of a use case, thanks | 21:28 |
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| dhellmann | fungi: yeah, that would require a much much smarter config generator that pulled in git commit messages or something | 21:29 |
| ttx | dhellmann: or at least an ML thread if there is not enough meat for a spec yet | 21:29 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I'd rather go ahead and start with a skeleton spec and have some use cases proposed there | 21:29 |
| Rockyg | dhellmann ++ | 21:29 |
| dhellmann | but as I'm not going to write it, I'll leave that decision up to the author :-) | 21:29 |
| fungi | so i think as a takeaway we can at least summarize some of these options as doable and take the temperature on the ml thread>? | 21:29 |
| ttx | dhellmann: is that a rhetorical "I" or are you volunteering ? :) | 21:29 |
| dhellmann | fungi: ++ | 21:30 |
| mfisch | May I request a CC to the operators list on this discussion? | 21:30 |
| fungi | mfisch: that was the ml thread i was talking about | 21:30 |
| mfisch | ok | 21:30 |
| mfisch | I thought you meant -dv | 21:30 |
| mfisch | -dev | 21:30 |
| fungi | mfisch: the one mentioned in the meeting agenda | 21:30 |
| ttx | fungi: you up for that ? | 21:30 |
| Rockyg | mfisch: it will most likely move to dev, but when it does, it will get announced on the ops list as moving | 21:31 |
| mfisch | perfect | 21:31 |
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| fungi | ttx: sure. i'll take a crack at ml as next step, then see if someone else wants to step up for a spec if people can agree on one particular solution as better than the others for the requested purpose | 21:31 |
| ttx | #agreed summarize some of these options as doable and take the temperature on the ops ml thread? | 21:31 |
| ttx | #action fungi to take a crack at ml as next step, then see if someone else wants to step up for a spec if people can agree on one particular solution as better than the others for the requested purpose | 21:32 |
| ttx | fungi: many thx | 21:32 |
| Rockyg | fungi: ask for use cases that can be included in spec. | 21:32 |
| fungi | Rockyg: great idea--will make sure i do | 21:32 |
| Rockyg | Fungi: and thanks for taking this on | 21:32 |
| fungi | yw | 21:32 |
| ttx | ok, back to the first agenda item | 21:32 |
| mfisch | thanks for the discussion this has been a thorn for sometime | 21:32 |
| joehuang | thanks | 21:32 |
| ttx | #topic Next steps for cascading (joehuang) | 21:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Next steps for cascading (joehuang) (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:32 | |
| ttx | So... a bit of history first | 21:32 |
| ttx | joehuang posted about his "cascading" approach to scaling OpenStack back in October | 21:32 |
| ttx | There was a thread back then, mostly asking about the difference with the "Cells" approach | 21:33 |
| ttx | Then it was discussed as part of the "scaling approaches" cross-project session in Paris | 21:33 |
| ttx | Now joehuang is wondering about the next steps, which prompted a new thread | 21:33 |
| ttx | That thread mostly questioned the need and priority for another scaling approach | 21:33 |
| ttx | If I had to summarize I'd say that: | 21:33 |
| bknudson | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-crossproject-scale-out-openstack ? | 21:33 |
| notmyname | "scaling openstack" == functional code or the organization? | 21:33 |
| ttx | (1) the cascading approach requires important changes and is heavily cross-project: therefore it requires strong buy-in from everyone in order to be successful | 21:33 |
| russellb | notmyname: code | 21:34 |
| ttx | (2) nobody (except its promoter) was really excited by the idea of spending any time on this | 21:34 |
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| ttx | ...so I don't really see this effort as succeeding, unless the tide turns | 21:34 |
| bknudson | which effort? cells? | 21:34 |
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| ttx | bknudson: cascading | 21:34 |
| russellb | bknudson: cascading ... | 21:34 |
| * ttx shall post a few links | 21:34 | |
| russellb | ttx: i agree with that summary, that's my take as well | 21:35 |
| dansmith | ttx: same | 21:35 |
| joehuang | but it's not scaling out for cascading | 21:35 |
| Rockyg | ttx: it's on telco-NFV todo list, but it needs lots of architecting and design. | 21:35 |
| Rockyg | It's a big issue in telco. | 21:35 |
| mestery | ttx: Ack | 21:35 |
| joehuang | it's about multi-clouds intergation | 21:35 |
| ttx | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-September/047470.html | 21:35 |
| dansmith | I think that's the key bit: the real goal is integrating multiple-vendor openstack, not really scaling | 21:36 |
| ttx | original post ^ | 21:36 |
| dansmith | and that is the heart of why there is little interest, IMHO | 21:36 |
| jogo | dansmith: yeah, that part scares me | 21:36 |
| russellb | or even if it was all the same vendor, it's still a huge scope | 21:36 |
| jogo | dansmith: there be dragons to support multi vendor | 21:36 |
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| russellb | and i don't think that's a smart next step for us to try to tackle | 21:36 |
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| ttx | I just want joehuang to have a clear answer | 21:36 |
| ttx | because we may not have been clear enough in the past | 21:36 |
| ttx | on interest/priority/effort | 21:37 |
| joehuang | but the implementation is not hard, just add new driver.agent for OpenStack it self. PoC only about 15K source code | 21:37 |
| alaski | russellb: agreed. the pre cells solution of zones was very similar to this and was abandoned due to many obstacles that couldn't be overcome at the time | 21:37 |
| dansmith | ttx: what format do you want that in, and from who? | 21:37 |
| sdague | russellb: agreed, I think it's something that comes after a cells model is well established | 21:37 |
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| Rockyg | So, too much work to start building. The work should go into getting a design and architecture that addresses the dragons | 21:37 |
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| joehuang | each one service may have a driver about 2~4k source code | 21:37 |
| russellb | joehuang: i strongly disagree that this is not hard or complicated :-) | 21:37 |
| sdague | Rockyg: well, more importantly, there are existing scaling efforts that we should get nailed down | 21:37 |
| sdague | first | 21:37 |
| ttx | dansmith: ideally that meeting would put everyone on same page | 21:37 |
| morganfainberg | joehuang, 15k is a large amount of additional code. | 21:38 |
| joehuang | and the driver/agent can be decoupled from the tree | 21:38 |
| sdague | and once that's a solved problem, and cross project, then something like this could be considered | 21:38 |
| morganfainberg | imo | 21:38 |
| mestery | morganfainberg: ++ | 21:38 |
| russellb | if you want to maintain some out of tree drivers, by all means, have at it, it's open source :) | 21:38 |
| Rockyg | Can those scaling issues be addressed so that they inform the multi cloud effort? | 21:38 |
| jogo | joehuang: showing a proof of concept is not hard doesn't mean a full implementation is easy | 21:38 |
| sdague | jogo: exactly, see: cells v1 and the attempts to make it feature complete in Nova | 21:39 |
| russellb | i fundamentally don't see the "multiple cloud effort" as something we should make a priority right now (if ever) | 21:39 |
| jogo | sdague: great example | 21:39 |
| Rockyg | sdague: like get the architecture of the scaling firmed up so Joe's effort has a reasonable base to build on | 21:39 |
| fungi | i assume that's 15k lines of code, not 15k bytes of code | 21:39 |
| joehuang | it's already opensource in stackforge/tricircle | 21:39 |
| dansmith | russellb: I agree, it's just not a thing we need to concentrate on right now, hard or not (even though we know it's hard) | 21:39 |
| sdague | russellb: agreed, at least in the short term | 21:39 |
| morganfainberg | fungi, that was my assumption | 21:39 |
| joehuang | for cinder, the driver is about only 2k source code | 21:40 |
| jogo | joehuang: have you gotten this running and passed tempest-full in a multi cloud deployment? | 21:40 |
| ttx | joehuang: you mention the possibility to run cascading as an incubated project. How would that work ? Could this be implemented completely outside the existing projects ? | 21:40 |
| anteaya | joehuang: you might get further if you talked about impact of teh changes and less about size of them | 21:40 |
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| russellb | if I thought every project totally rocked its scalability and such within a single region, then i think we could talk about this as a possible next step | 21:41 |
| russellb | but we're not there | 21:41 |
| ttx | I think everyone agrees that even if this was a good idea, now is not the time to implement it. The question is, what can joehuang do as a next step | 21:41 |
| sdague | russellb: ++ | 21:41 |
| jogo | link https://github.com/stackforge/tricircle | 21:41 |
| joehuang | to ttx, yes. the different is that the test environment needs at least 3 openstacks | 21:41 |
| russellb | so i think it's a premature, very large distraction | 21:41 |
| thingee | o/ sorry late | 21:41 |
| Rockyg | ttx: I susupect that the project would need to track integrated and ensure that a scaling solution doesn't brake them. Negotiate for shared solution | 21:41 |
| mestery | russellb: ++ | 21:41 |
| ttx | joehuang: having complex test needs doesn't prevent it from being developed out of tree | 21:41 |
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| mikal | https://github.com/stackforge/tricircle/blob/master/novaproxy/nova/compute/manager_proxy.py seems to have a lot of copied code from nova? | 21:42 |
| joehuang | the test use case suit for current openstack can reused for cascading | 21:42 |
| dhellmann | russellb: ++ | 21:42 |
| sdague | so I think that the fastest path to getting to this, is not spending any time on it, but instead for people interested in multi cloud stuff to actively help with the existing scalability | 21:42 |
| sdague | and help make that solid | 21:42 |
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| sdague | then it opens up the discussion in the future | 21:42 |
| joehuang | it's inherited from nova-manager | 21:42 |
| Rockyg | russellb: distraction for folks already working on openstack scaling projects, but not for Joe. But Joe would need to coordinate with those others. | 21:42 |
| joehuang | and some unused code not been removed completelt | 21:42 |
| russellb | Rockyg: it requires significant buy-in and coordination across all projects | 21:43 |
| russellb | *signficant* design and code review time | 21:43 |
| sdague | Rockyg: yeh, there is tons of overhead for any feature of this scope | 21:43 |
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| russellb | it hugely impacts what will get done in openstack overall | 21:43 |
| sdague | russellb: ++ | 21:43 |
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| Rockyg | russellb: yup. But at least don't design current openstack to make cascading impossible. | 21:43 |
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| ttx | I'm with sdague and russellb on this one. I don't think we can afford the distraction, even if driven by a new group | 21:43 |
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| russellb | Rockyg: don't think we are/have | 21:44 |
| dansmith | ttx: agreed | 21:44 |
| morganfainberg | and to be honest, i'm still unclear on some details of it - it has had some mixed messaging. without a bit more clarity the distraction gets worse. | 21:44 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, russellb, sdague: +1 | 21:44 |
| fungi | until very recently it was positioned much more as a scalability solution rather than an interoperability solution | 21:44 |
| dansmith | fungi: indeed, and that's the summit session it was slated for: scale-out | 21:44 |
| fungi | hence a lot of the confusion i think | 21:45 |
| Rockyg | How about joe uses his repository to build a POC. When ready to show, then have a session to discuss where it is limited/broken and where it will likely work. | 21:45 |
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| dansmith | Rockyg: that's the distraction | 21:45 |
| joehuang | redhat openstack can be integreted with original opensrack with cascading | 21:45 |
| dansmith | Rockyg: if this isn't a thing we need to work on right now, then that review of the gaps is taking away from other work | 21:45 |
| ttx | Rockyg: sure, we won't (can't, actually) prevent him from developing the solution | 21:45 |
| russellb | to be honest, i'm not interested in that as a problem to solve | 21:45 |
| russellb | at all | 21:45 |
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| russellb | and to be clear, that's with my upstream hat on | 21:46 |
| russellb | i just don't think we should be trying to build complex technical solutions for something that's a business issue like that | 21:46 |
| russellb | so i don't think it should be in the discussion | 21:46 |
| joehuang | sorry, too much message, not been able to answer one by one | 21:46 |
| sdague | like I said, I think the fastest path to ever working on a thing like this is *not working on it now*, and instead focussing efforts on the scaling priorities already in the projects | 21:46 |
| Rockyg | dansmith, russellb: just because you aren't interested or have time, doesn't mean joe can't work on it. the nature of Open Source. You don't have to participate. | 21:46 |
| joehuang | maybe something not been exaplained | 21:46 |
| sdague | including reviewing those changes | 21:47 |
| russellb | Rockyg: there is a difference between "you can't work on it" and "OpenStack doesn't want to integrate it any time soon" | 21:47 |
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| mestery | I don't think we can prevent people from working on this, but I haven't heard much support for this in the short term during this meeting yet. | 21:47 |
| dansmith | Rockyg: no, of course not, but you said "have a session to discuss the gaps" | 21:47 |
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| jogo | russellb: ++. on the other hand I do like things like Globally Distributed OpenStack Swift Cluster | 21:47 |
| dhellmann | Rockyg: yeah, I think it's fine for joehuang to work on it, but you're asking for help and participation and not hearing the "we don't have time this cycle" response | 21:47 |
| ttx | Rockyg: sure, you just can't expect people to dedicate cycles to that | 21:47 |
| dansmith | Rockyg: he can do whatever he wants, but expecting us to circle around in X months to revisit isn't a thing there seems to be any support for here | 21:47 |
| morganfainberg | Rockyg, and no one is disagreeing. what the disagreement is that we may or may not afford the time as the OpenStack project/PTLs/TC to review it/dedicate cycles to it | 21:47 |
| mestery | dansmith: ++ | 21:47 |
| edleafe | This sounds like a great third party product built on top of OpenStack and sold to telcos who need it | 21:48 |
| * morganfainberg left Core teams out of that | 21:48 | |
| ttx | I haven't heard a single PTl (or even a single existing dev) supporting that idea yet | 21:48 |
| Rockyg | Not the gaps, the POC. It could be a BoF at the summit for that matter. Anyone who wants to, comes, otherwise, it's noise. | 21:48 |
| ttx | Given thatn I just don't think it will be successfully integrated | 21:48 |
| sdague | Rockyg: sure, but expectations need to be set correctly | 21:48 |
| anteaya | Rockyg: you can apply for a session but don't be surprised if you don't get the space | 21:48 |
| jogo | joehuang: it sounds like you think we are missing something. What are we missing? | 21:48 |
| ttx | so it's better developed separately as a POC and trying to prove itself useful.. At this moment there is a mindshare problem | 21:49 |
| russellb | "a mindshare problem" is a good way to capture it | 21:49 |
| sdague | because, working off on a fork out of tree on stuff people aren't interested in, just means expect to rewrite it from scratch if there is future interest. | 21:49 |
| joehuang | many people have questions, maybe because I did not answer his question | 21:49 |
| fungi | good outcomes which could arise from this as a separate effort among the interested parties would be for them to file bugs they identify in projects which need fixing and are preventing their effort from working as well as it should. things which are legitimately bugs in existing openstack features | 21:49 |
| Rockyg | sdague: yes. Expectations: joe gets his own team if he wants it to happen. the team is responsible for a POC and addressing whatever questions come up. | 21:49 |
| morganfainberg | fungi, huge +1 on that | 21:49 |
| ttx | it's not a technical problem, and joe thinks it's technical. Not yet, at least. | 21:49 |
| sdague | fungi: ++ | 21:49 |
| jogo | Rockyg: https://github.com/stackforge/tricircle is the POC | 21:50 |
| jogo | its there already | 21:50 |
| dansmith | jogo: right :) | 21:50 |
| Rockyg | Fungi: ++ the responsibility is on Joe | 21:50 |
| joehuang | so many messages, I can't answer each one, | 21:50 |
| Rockyg | and his team. | 21:50 |
| mestery | I think you shouldn't expect that the POC will merge as is either. | 21:50 |
| jogo | joehuang: so I think one of the big questions is, is this a technical solution to a pure business problem? | 21:51 |
| russellb | so is this a fair summary? feel free to continue your POC work, but right now, there seems to be no support from any existing devs, so it may not ever be something accepted | 21:51 |
| ttx | OK, let's slow down thge discussion, so that the message is clearer | 21:51 |
| Rockyg | I wouldn't expect it to merge. Especially as a POC. It's once those other scaling things happen so that the stage is set, and the POC has been exercised to fix real world problems. | 21:51 |
| sdague | if people want to parcipate in OpenStack, they should participate in OpenStack, and look at the priorities that projects have already set, and help. If they want to do their own thing, that's cool, just don't expect it to become part of OpenStack. | 21:51 |
| russellb | things of course may change in some future release cycle | 21:51 |
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| jogo | (the multi vendor / making several unique deployments look like one) | 21:51 |
| mestery | sdague: + | 21:52 |
| russellb | jogo: and is it even a problem (they can be separate regions, of course) | 21:52 |
| ttx | I like russell summary | 21:52 |
| joehuang | networking automation across openstack is very important | 21:52 |
| russellb | networking automation across a globally distributed tree of openstack clouds? | 21:52 |
| russellb | umm | 21:52 |
| jogo | joehuang: why and can you clarify that | 21:52 |
| russellb | is a good example of why i think this should be considered out of scope for right now | 21:53 |
| mestery | networking automation? I'm sure that won't be contentious at all ;) | 21:53 |
| russellb | that's a huge effort | 21:53 |
| joehuang | refer VDF use case | 21:53 |
| russellb | how about we make neutron work really well for one region first | 21:53 |
| Rockyg | Yup. I think the key info for joe here, is OpenStack isn't ready for the project, and if he want's it ready sooner than later, he needs to help make it ready by working on scaling being coded now. | 21:53 |
| mestery | russellb: ++ | 21:53 |
| ttx | Rockyg: ++ | 21:53 |
| dhellmann | Rockyg: yes, that's what I'm hearing, too | 21:53 |
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| ttx | ok, let's spell it out | 21:53 |
| morganfainberg | Rockyg, dead on | 21:53 |
| ttx | #agreed OpenStack isn't ready for the project, and if he want's it ready sooner than later, joehuang needs to help make it ready by working on scaling being coded now. | 21:54 |
| * jogo googles VDF and finds Virginia Defense Force | 21:54 | |
| mestery | jogo: lol | 21:54 |
| ttx | #info feel free to continue your POC work, but right now, there seems to be no support from any existing devs, so it may not ever be something accepted | 21:54 |
| ttx | I think that's a fair summary ? | 21:54 |
| dansmith | +1 | 21:54 |
| russellb | ++ | 21:54 |
| morganfainberg | +1 | 21:54 |
| asalkeld | +1 | 21:55 |
| dhellmann | +1 | 21:55 |
| jogo | ++ | 21:55 |
| edleafe | +1 | 21:55 |
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| markmcclain | +1 | 21:55 |
| joehuang | not support from the meeting? | 21:55 |
| mestery | +1 | 21:55 |
| alaski | +1 | 21:55 |
| russellb | joehuang: in Paris? No, I did not detect any support in that meeting | 21:55 |
| sdague | +1 | 21:55 |
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| ttx | joehuang: I have yet to find an existing core dev in any of the affected project ready to back the idea | 21:56 |
| joehuang | so we continue our work, and ignite a discussion later wen new progress comes | 21:56 |
| jogo | joehuang: what is VDF? link | 21:56 |
| dhellmann | joehuang: that sounds like the best plan for right now | 21:56 |
| joehuang | Vodafone | 21:56 |
| ttx | joehuang: also, if you encounter sclaing issues in getting your POC to work (and you will) file them as bugs, and help fixing them | 21:57 |
| morganfainberg | joehuang, and please help contirbute to solving the issues with the scaling in the current projects. | 21:57 |
| Rockyg | joehuang: ++ and help on openstack work that leads to what you want on cascading | 21:57 |
| morganfainberg | as ttx just said | 21:57 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion & announcements | 21:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion & announcements (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:57 | |
| ttx | We had 1:1 syncs today, kilo-1 tags are getting out as we speak. Logs at: | 21:57 |
| ttx | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2014/ptl_sync.2014-12-16-09.00.html | 21:57 |
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| dhellmann | It looks like the issue with oslo.db and sqlalchemy triggered by the setuptools release this weekend is fixed. Please let me know if you are seeing failures still in your projects. | 21:58 |
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| ttx | Also note that we'll discuss openstack-specs as a recurring iteml in future meetings: | 21:58 |
| dhellmann | there is one more patch to land in juno to pin oslo.db <1.1 | 21:58 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/openstack-specs+branch:master,n,z | 21:58 |
| ttx | PTLs, ops, eveyone shall review those ^ | 21:58 |
| asalkeld | k | 21:59 |
| morganfainberg | just a minor note, keystoneclient is going to be bumped to 1.0.0 this next release - it's been stable for a looong time, we're just marking it as stable version # (no incompat changes going in, etc) - if anyone has any concerns, let me know [e.g. infra side, etc]. | 21:59 |
| ttx | currently one on log guidelines and one on OSProfiler | 21:59 |
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| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 21:59 |
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| eglynn | ttx: meeting scheduling for next 2 weeks? | 22:00 |
| russellb | hope you all have happy holidays, if you're taking any time off :) | 22:00 |
| ttx | eglynn: probably skip next 2 | 22:00 |
| eglynn | ttx: cool, sounds reasonable | 22:00 |
| ttx | anyone wanting to have a cross-project on Dec 23 or Dec 30 ? | 22:01 |
| ttx | (there is a trick hidden in that question) | 22:01 |
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| Rockyg | my projects would be very cross if they had to meet then;-) | 22:01 |
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| ttx | Alright, have a great holiday season everyone! Next meeting January 6 | 22:02 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 22:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 16 22:02:05 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2014/crossproject.2014-12-16-21.01.html | 22:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2014/crossproject.2014-12-16-21.01.txt | 22:02 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2014/crossproject.2014-12-16-21.01.log.html | 22:02 |
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