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| anteaya | #startmeeting third-party | 08:02 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 2 08:02:27 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 08:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 08:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 08:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 08:02 |
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| anteaya | hands up if you are here for the third party meeting | 08:03 |
| lennyb | up | 08:03 |
| anteaya | hello | 08:03 |
| lennyb | there is an issue I would like to discuss or at least note. regarding http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-June/065367.html | 08:04 |
| anteaya | please continue | 08:04 |
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| anteaya | please continue | 08:06 |
| lennyb | I've discussion with infra this morning and it seems like zuul missing feature/bug. The root cause of this empty comments that Dan complains about and jogo asked to disable our account last time | 08:06 |
| anteaya | the part that is the problem is that you aren't in -nova | 08:06 |
| lennyb | is that we are filtering out files that is 'not interesting' to us, but zuul still makes a comment. | 08:06 |
| anteaya | even now you are not in the #openstack-nova irc channel | 08:06 |
| anteaya | and you aren't monitoring your own system | 08:07 |
| anteaya | dansmith has no problem about your ability to address your account when someone posts to the email list | 08:07 |
| lennyb | i know, infra guys asked me to discuss this here as well since they have similar issues | 08:07 |
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| anteaya | the problem is that you aren't paying attention to your own account unless someone does | 08:07 |
| anteaya | a third party operator has similar issues | 08:08 |
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| anteaya | but they are not in the same boat as yourself | 08:08 |
| anteaya | which is about to have your account permanently banned from nova | 08:08 |
| lennyb | those comments went directly from zuul without triggering Jenkins. Since this was not failure I did not monitor it | 08:08 |
| anteaya | because you are not in the #openstack-nova channel, you don't attend nova irc meetings | 08:08 |
| anteaya | noone knows who you are | 08:09 |
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| anteaya | and they are tired of your account | 08:09 |
| anteaya | you have to monitor your system, period | 08:09 |
| lennyb | i see | 08:09 |
| anteaya | and you have to be in the irc channels for the projects you expect to test | 08:09 |
| anteaya | and you have to attend the meetings | 08:09 |
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| anteaya | and people need to know who you are | 08:09 |
| anteaya | and need to see you care about your system | 08:10 |
| anteaya | because right now, they don't see that | 08:10 |
| lennyb | i see | 08:10 |
| anteaya | while zuul may behave in a way you didn't expect, that isn't zuul's fault | 08:10 |
| anteaya | the tools always do random things | 08:10 |
| anteaya | it is your responsiblity to be aware of this | 08:11 |
| anteaya | by monitoring your system | 08:11 |
| anteaya | and having strong communication ties with the various projects you test | 08:11 |
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| anteaya | well at least now you are in -cinder, -neutron and -nova | 08:13 |
| anteaya | you need to set up an irc bouncer so that people can send you messages when you are not online | 08:13 |
| lennyb | btw, moshele is there and we are siting in the same room :) | 08:14 |
| anteaya | and you need to read logs and backscroll daily to understand what people are talking about | 08:14 |
| anteaya | who is moshele? | 08:14 |
| anteaya | and why is that person not in this meeting with you? | 08:14 |
| anteaya | they aren't even in this channel | 08:14 |
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| anteaya | the co-ordinated presence of your company could use some co-ordination | 08:15 |
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| anteaya | and if they don't listen to you if you tell them that, send them to me | 08:15 |
| lennyb | He is one of the developers in nova and neutron projects | 08:15 |
| anteaya | and with your company? | 08:16 |
| moshele_ | anteaya: hi | 08:16 |
| anteaya | moshele_: hello | 08:16 |
| anteaya | moshele_ lennyb the two of you need to work together better | 08:16 |
| anteaya | and the people in the projects you expect to test need to know you work together | 08:16 |
| anteaya | and if that is a problem you need to send someone who can hear me to these meetings | 08:17 |
| moshele_ | anteaya: I am sorry it wasn't clear | 08:17 |
| anteaya | as you are about to have your account banned in -nova | 08:17 |
| anteaya | so this isn't just a matter of getting your ci account fixed | 08:17 |
| anteaya | you have to present a useful and available presence to the projects | 08:17 |
| anteaya | and so far, that effort has been lacking | 08:17 |
| anteaya | moshele_: do you read backscroll in the channels you are in? | 08:18 |
| moshele_ | anteaya: no I have not | 08:18 |
| moshele_ | anteaya: we are not comment in nova now | 08:19 |
| anteaya | moshele_: that isn't the point | 08:19 |
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| anteaya | read this log | 08:20 |
| anteaya | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-infra/%23openstack-infra.2015-06-01.log.html#t2015-06-01T18:01:15 | 08:20 |
| anteaya | and the conversation is between dansmith and anteaya | 08:20 |
| anteaya | tell me when you have read it | 08:21 |
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| moshele_ | anteaya: ok I read it also I was in the summit and meet dansmith | 08:23 |
| anteaya | moshele_: well then you need to talk to him | 08:24 |
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| anteaya | what do you understand from reading the email sent to the list as well as this log? | 08:24 |
| moshele_ | anteaya: I also talked regarding the CI in the summit | 08:24 |
| anteaya | moshele_: it didn't seem to do you much good | 08:24 |
| anteaya | as he is prepared to ban you | 08:24 |
| anteaya | ban your account that is | 08:25 |
| anteaya | so dispite your efforts you still don't seem to understand what is expected of a third party ci account | 08:25 |
| anteaya | and I'm frustrated since I have been trying for many months to provide that information | 08:26 |
| anteaya | so where do we not have the understanding that we need | 08:26 |
| anteaya | because I have tried to provide information consistent with meeting -nova expecations | 08:26 |
| anteaya | and that doesn't seem to have gotten across to whatever combination of yourself and lennyb | 08:27 |
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| anteaya | do you dismiss what I'm telling you? | 08:28 |
| anteaya | or does your management? | 08:28 |
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| moshele_ | anteaya: I agree we need to improve or monitoring for the CI | 08:28 |
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| anteaya | you need to improve your relationship with the community | 08:29 |
| anteaya | if you can't repair that working on your CI is pointless | 08:29 |
| moshele_ | anteaya: also I will be in the nova meeting as well | 08:29 |
| lennyb | and improve my irc meeting | 08:29 |
| anteaya | can you hear me? | 08:29 |
| anteaya | at all? | 08:29 |
| anteaya | you need to take steps to fix this situation with nova developers | 08:30 |
| anteaya | just showing up in a meeting won't do it | 08:30 |
| anteaya | I really feel like I'm not getting through to you | 08:30 |
| anteaya | and it isn't for lack of being available to talk to you | 08:31 |
| anteaya | nor for trying to bring your attention to what you need to prioritize | 08:31 |
| eantyshev | Hi! Can we discuss that initial problem of zuul? many CIs are setup to run functional checks on doc/test changes, which is wrong IMHO | 08:32 |
| anteaya | I feel you are resisting engaging in the relationship you need to engage in to fix this | 08:32 |
| moshele_ | anteaya: I am active in the nova and neutron irc I will improve the relationship with the community | 08:32 |
| anteaya | and I can't at all understand why | 08:32 |
| anteaya | moshele_: well either you will or you won't | 08:33 |
| anteaya | but dansmith has made it clear that if you don't, he isn't interested in seeing your account inferface with nova | 08:33 |
| anteaya | eantyshev: hello | 08:33 |
| anteaya | if zuul is behaving in a way that is contrary to your expectations you are welcome to file a bug | 08:34 |
| anteaya | eantyshev: but keep in mind any behaviour by tools in no way absolves you of taking responsibility for your system | 08:34 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: I see that | 08:34 |
| anteaya | eantyshev: great | 08:34 |
| anteaya | so with that in mind | 08:35 |
| anteaya | do expand on your thoughts | 08:35 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: do you mean that Zuul behavior? | 08:36 |
| anteaya | eantyshev: you want to have a discussion | 08:36 |
| anteaya | zuul seems to be the topic | 08:36 |
| anteaya | I'm listening | 08:36 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: Zuul allows to filter out some jobs by a file matcher, but not the whole event | 08:37 |
| anteaya | and you would like zuul to have the functionality fo filter out a job based on event? | 08:38 |
| anteaya | is what I said an accurate statement? | 08:39 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: my proposal is to not report on events w/o any jobs | 08:39 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: AFAIU events have no information on files affected, hence cannot be filtered | 08:40 |
| anteaya | eantyshev: okay | 08:41 |
| anteaya | let's look at zuul's bugs, shall we? | 08:41 |
| anteaya | #link https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/project/679 | 08:41 |
| anteaya | do you see anything on the zuul bug list that might sound similar to what you are talking about? | 08:41 |
| anteaya | and the events are from gerrit correct? | 08:42 |
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| eantyshev | anteaya: Correct | 08:43 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: no such bug | 08:43 |
| anteaya | so you would need to start the job before you found out what files are affected | 08:43 |
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| eantyshev | anteaya: please explain, cannot understand why and how | 08:44 |
| lennyb | yes, events are correct, The problem is that zuul comments even if no job was triggered | 08:44 |
| anteaya | you are welcome to file a zuul bug | 08:44 |
| anteaya | lennyb: let's look at an example, shall we? | 08:44 |
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| anteaya | lennyb: do you have the url of a review where this happened? | 08:45 |
| lennyb | 1sec | 08:45 |
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| anteaya | eantyshev: the gerrit event doesn't give information on files, yes? | 08:46 |
| lennyb | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/187227 | 08:46 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: yes | 08:46 |
| anteaya | so how can zuul know, before starting the jobs, what files are affected by the change? | 08:46 |
| anteaya | zuul has to take the event and process it to know | 08:47 |
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| lennyb | patchset 3 was filtered out by our zuul and no job was triggered. still zull put a comment with 'Build succeeded.' | 08:47 |
| anteaya | why was patchset 3 filered out? | 08:48 |
| anteaya | what is the determining factor that you decided not to test patchset 3? | 08:49 |
| anteaya | just as some feedback, having huge long pauses every time you are asked a question is very tiring for whoever is waiting to hear back from you | 08:51 |
| anteaya | if you don't know, say so | 08:51 |
| lennyb | modified files are not in layout.yaml | 08:51 |
| anteaya | but asking a question and then having over a minute of silence doesn't support the listener having confidence in you | 08:52 |
| anteaya | so you only want to test patches that modify layout.yaml? | 08:52 |
| anteaya | nova has a layout.yaml? | 08:52 |
| lennyb | anteaya: it takes me few secs to provide you the answer | 08:52 |
| anteaya | lennyb: then say so | 08:52 |
| anteaya | like | 08:52 |
| * anteaya thinks | 08:52 | |
| * anteaya checks | 08:52 | |
| * anteaya digs up the answer | 08:52 | |
| * anteaya looks at the code | 08:53 | |
| lennyb | * thinks | 08:53 |
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| anteaya | like this /me thinks | 08:53 |
| anteaya | but the / has to be at the front of the line | 08:53 |
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| * lennyb talking to anteaya | 08:53 | |
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| anteaya | yes | 08:54 |
| anteaya | now where is nova's layout.yaml file? | 08:54 |
| * lennyb checks | 08:54 | |
| anteaya | better | 08:54 |
| lennyb | anteaya: yes, nova CI is triggered only by files that can effect or be effected by our code/driver ... | 08:55 |
| anteaya | lennyb: which is where? | 08:55 |
| anteaya | I don't know nova's code structure | 08:55 |
| * lennyb preparing copy paste | 08:56 | |
| eantyshev | anteaya: there's no file information in event http://paste.openstack.org/show/255616/ | 08:56 |
| anteaya | there we go, now you understand irc communication better | 08:56 |
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| lennyb | http://pastebin.com/3yH12H3M | 08:56 |
| lennyb | ( ignore $ in the end of the line, it's copy and paste from the linux ) | 08:57 |
| anteaya | lennyb: oh those are the files you test on | 08:57 |
| lennyb | anteaya: yeap | 08:57 |
| anteaya | lennyb: is that list of files something that nova agrees are the only files you need to test? | 08:57 |
| anteaya | eantyshev: I concur, there is no file information included in the json blob when gerrit broadcasts its events | 08:58 |
| anteaya | eantyshev: so the only way for zuul to know what files are affected is to process the event | 08:58 |
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| anteaya | eantyshev: can you see that? | 08:58 |
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| lennyb | I thought it was our decision, since only those files are effected by PCI | 08:59 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: so this info is queried after event is processed, and filtering events is not a solution | 08:59 |
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| anteaya | I didnt' say there was no solution | 08:59 |
| anteaya | but expecting zuul to be able to selectively ignore an event isn't a solution, no | 09:00 |
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| anteaya | zuul has to process each event | 09:00 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: okay, that's what I mean | 09:00 |
| anteaya | now what zuul does with the various events depends on what you asked zuul to do | 09:00 |
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| anteaya | but zuul can't ignore an event | 09:00 |
| anteaya | as the event itself doesn't contain enough information for it to know what to ignore | 09:01 |
| lennyb | Can zuul not comment if no job was triggered ? | 09:01 |
| anteaya | lennyb: it might be your decision | 09:01 |
| anteaya | lennyb: my point is that this is yet another part of your interface with nova for which you saught no nova input | 09:02 |
| anteaya | lennyb: I don't know | 09:02 |
| anteaya | but so far, you have been unsucessful in getting zuul to not comment if no job was triggered, yes? | 09:02 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: lennyb: I didn;t find this possibility in Zuul | 09:03 |
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| anteaya | eantyshev: okay thank you, that is a useful data point | 09:03 |
| anteaya | and we are out of time | 09:04 |
| anteaya | let's keep discussing this | 09:04 |
| anteaya | and seeing if we can find a solution to what you are looking for | 09:04 |
| anteaya | thank you for your kind attendance and participation at today's meeting | 09:04 |
| lennyb | is there an zuul irc chat room ( other then infra ) | 09:04 |
| lennyb | ? | 09:04 |
| anteaya | infra is the zuul chat room | 09:04 |
| anteaya | see you next week, if not before | 09:05 |
| anteaya | #endmeeting | 09:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 09:05 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 2 09:05:09 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 09:05 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-02-08.02.html | 09:05 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-02-08.02.txt | 09:05 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-02-08.02.log.html | 09:05 |
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| mestery | hello neutron folks! | 13:59 |
| yamamoto | hi | 13:59 |
| johnsom | good morning | 13:59 |
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| yamahata | hi | 13:59 |
| vikram | hi | 13:59 |
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| watanabe_isao | Good evening z.Z.Z | 14:00 |
| mestery | watanabe_isao: :) | 14:00 |
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| dougwig | O/ | 14:00 |
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| marun | o/ | 14:00 |
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| xek | o/ | 14:00 |
| amotoki_ | hi/ | 14:00 |
| HenryG | o/ | 14:00 |
| mlavalle | hi | 14:00 |
| xgerman | o/ | 14:00 |
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| amotoki_ | watanabe_isao: evening is too early to zzz :-) good night | 14:01 |
| armax | hi | 14:01 |
| mestery | OK, lets get this party started! :) | 14:01 |
| mestery | #startmeeting networking | 14:01 |
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| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 2 14:01:24 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mestery. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking' | 14:01 |
| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings Agenda | 14:01 |
| neiljerram | o/ | 14:01 |
| mestery | We have a good amount to cover today | 14:01 |
| watanabe_isao | amotoki_, :) | 14:01 |
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| mestery | #topic Announcements | 14:01 |
| johnsom | o/ | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:01 | |
| mestery | First off, welcome back to everyone from the Summit! | 14:01 |
| mestery | I hope everyone enjoyed it. | 14:01 |
| neiljerram | Very much | 14:02 |
| mestery | Thanks to neiljerram for posting some comments from a "first time attendee" point of view :) | 14:02 |
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| neiljerram | :) | 14:02 |
| mestery | Some things I wanted the team to be aware of post-Summit from a cross-project perspective: | 14:02 |
| mestery | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-May/065211.html New release versioning | 14:02 |
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| mestery | All servers are changing how they version, moving to semvar similar to the clients | 14:02 |
| mestery | E.g. Liberty won't be 2015.2, it will be 12.0.0 (or some such version) | 14:02 |
| sahid | jaypipes: thanks for your reviews, i have replied to the first one and since i would like to address your comments.. - can you take a look? | 14:02 |
| sahid | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/174313/16 | 14:03 |
| mestery | sahid: Wrong channel perhaps? | 14:03 |
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| mestery | sahid: This is the neutron meeting right now | 14:03 |
| mestery | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-May/065144.html No more stable point releases | 14:03 |
| sahid | mestery: yes sorry | 14:03 |
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| mestery | I suspect both of these items will affect packagers the most. | 14:03 |
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| mestery | Bringing them up here so people are aware. | 14:03 |
| mestery | Next announcement | 14:04 |
| * beagles wanders in a little late | 14:04 | |
| mestery | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/neutron-liberty-mid-cycle Neutron mid-cycles | 14:04 |
| dougwig | are they releasing independently, or will there will be an integrated/tested "this is L" package? | 14:04 |
| mestery | #undo | 14:04 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Link object at 0x941c8d0> | 14:04 |
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| mestery | dougwig: Integrated release is dead, but in general, I think most formally-integrated-projects will release at the same time this fall | 14:04 |
| mestery | #info We have two mid-cycles which are quickly approaching | 14:05 |
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| mestery | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/neutron-liberty-qos-code-sprint QoS mid-cycle in Raanana Israel | 14:05 |
| mestery | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/neutron-liberty-mid-cycle US mid-cycle in Fort Collins CO | 14:05 |
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| * mestery slows down a bit | 14:06 | |
| amotoki_ | dougwig: I think it is a separate topic. I see Ironic is exploring more releases in liberty. | 14:06 |
| mestery | Any questions on the mid-cycles? | 14:06 |
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| mestery | On the Ironic topic ... | 14:06 |
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| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Ironic-neutron Weekly Ironic/Neutron meeting on IRC | 14:07 |
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| mestery | Please see Sukhdev for more information and to join in! | 14:07 |
| mestery | Any other announcements for the team? | 14:07 |
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| * mestery looks around for enikanorov or enikanorov_ | 14:08 | |
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| mestery | #topic Bugs | 14:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:08 | |
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| ajo | hi :) | 14:08 |
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| ajo | sorry to be late... | 14:08 |
| mestery | In lieu of enikanorov_ and enikanorov being here, does anyone have any bugs they want to bring up? | 14:08 |
| mestery | ajo: No worries, you're perfectly on time ;) | 14:08 |
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| neiljerram | I presume you don't mean RFE bugs, at this point? | 14:09 |
| mestery | neiljerram: Yes, I was going to discuss that process later in the meeting :) | 14:09 |
| watanabe_isao | mestery, sir the BP-spec policy in Announcements / Reminders | 14:09 |
| mestery | watanabe_isao: Correct! | 14:10 |
| mestery | OK, I know emagana had to miss today as well so lets move on to that topic then | 14:10 |
| mestery | #topic New RFE Process | 14:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New RFE Process (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:10 | |
| mestery | #link https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/doc/source/policies/blueprints.rst | 14:10 |
| mestery | For those who haven't been following the patches, thanks to the efforts of a bunch of people we have a new specs/RFE process for Liberty! | 14:10 |
| * mestery waits for people to read the link | 14:10 | |
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| mestery | I see some people are already filing RFE bugs, which is great! | 14:11 |
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| mestery | And dougwig proposed and we merged a new trimmed down spec template, also great! | 14:11 |
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| ajo | mestery I guess that stuff that went through the normal spec+blueprint process, we don't need RFE, or is it beneficial for tracking somehow? | 14:11 |
| mestery | And we have no deadlines this cycle. How great is that? | 14:11 |
| mestery | ajo: Correct! Anything already proposed will be reviewed as-is. | 14:11 |
| mestery | No need to drop it and file an RFE. | 14:11 |
| ajo | mestery: it's awesome :) | 14:12 |
| dougwig | at least through liberty-1. | 14:12 |
| mestery | We'll review existing specs until Liberty-1 | 14:12 |
| armax | mestery: no deadline aka gavage | 14:12 |
| mestery | dougwig: ++ | 14:12 |
| pc_m | mestery: Will there be periodic review of the RFEs proposed? | 14:12 |
| * armax rambles | 14:12 | |
| neiljerram | gavage? | 14:12 |
| mestery | pc_m: Yes! The drivers team is meeting weekly and reviewing | 14:12 |
| armax | neiljerram: force feeding :) | 14:12 |
| russellb | so ... RFE == opportunity to get general idea reviewed/approved before writing spec? | 14:12 |
| russellb | trying to distill this into tl;dr | 14:12 |
| pc_m | mestery: Thanks | 14:12 |
| mestery | #link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force-feeding | 14:12 |
| mestery | russellb: Yes! | 14:12 |
| pcarver | The ML3 spec was started (not by me) prior to the summit and new RFE process but I'd be happy to take a stab at creating an RFE for it if that's a good idea. | 14:12 |
| armax | russellb: yes, pretty much | 14:13 |
| russellb | mestery: ok thanks | 14:13 |
| mestery | Exactly, we're trying to separate the "what" from the "how" | 14:13 |
| mestery | cc marun :) | 14:13 |
| marun | :) | 14:13 |
| russellb | seems reasonable, just making sure i parsed it properly | 14:13 |
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| mestery | pcarver: In the case of ML3, it may make sense, per my email. Thank you for doing that! | 14:13 |
| armax | pcarver: we thought that for things that are already flying by | 14:13 |
| armax | pcarver: there’s no need to go back and add a RFE | 14:13 |
| armax | but every case is different I suppose | 14:14 |
| mestery | russellb: Absolutely! If you find issues or holes, please, let me know. | 14:14 |
| pc_m | mestery: Are there guidelines yet for the RFEs? I know that was a TBD | 14:14 |
| mestery | pc_m: marun was going to submit a template RFE | 14:14 |
| mestery | marun: Did you get to that? If not, I can take a crack this week. | 14:14 |
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| marun | mestery: armax stepped up and did the work | 14:14 |
| pc_m | mestery: That would be great | 14:14 |
| armax | pc_m, mestery: no, guidelines have been filed | 14:14 |
| dougwig | i think armax merged something | 14:14 |
| mestery | marun: Cool! | 14:14 |
| mestery | pc_m: It's in here at the bottom: https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/doc/source/policies/blueprints.rst | 14:14 |
| armax | https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/doc/source/policies/blueprints.rst#rfe-submission-guidelines | 14:14 |
| mestery | armax: Thanks for being awesome as usual :) | 14:15 |
| armax | #link https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/doc/source/policies/blueprints.rst#rfe-submission-guidelines | 14:15 |
| * mestery gives armax two gold stars | 14:15 | |
| pc_m | armax: thanks! | 14:15 |
| * armax feels pretty | 14:15 | |
| mestery | The elusive double gold star! | 14:15 |
| dougwig | armax: +1 | 14:15 |
| ajo | :) | 14:15 |
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| mestery | I encourage people that are having issues to reach out to me on IRC, email, or stop by my home and I'll work with you as we move to this new RFE process. | 14:16 |
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| * armax keeps his gold stars dearly in his wall of fame | 14:16 | |
| mestery | It's going to be awesome, and I want everyone to succeed with it so I'm going to help as much as is needed here. | 14:16 |
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| watanabe_isao | mestery, sir, you said there is no dead line for RFEs. But how about the old spec (in back log), is the dead line for them lebarty-1? | 14:16 |
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| mestery | watanabe_isao: Yes, but only because we want to move away from the old waterfall specs. | 14:16 |
| mestery | watanabe_isao: Post Liberty-1, you can re-file as an RFE. | 14:17 |
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| mestery | The deadline is only for reviewing existing specs filed under the old process. | 14:17 |
| watanabe_isao | mestery, I see. Thank you. | 14:17 |
| mestery | #action mestery to send email to ML about new process. | 14:17 |
| markmcclain | mestery: it's summer folks might take you up on the offer to stop by your house to enjoy the good weather :p | 14:17 |
| ajo | :-) | 14:17 |
| xgerman | lol | 14:17 |
| mestery | markmcclain: My door is open. We can sit on the porch in the evenings :) | 14:17 |
| mestery | #link http://www.siliconloons.com/posts/2015-06-01-new-neutron-rfe-process/ | 14:17 |
| armax | me too me too | 14:17 |
| ajo | I'd consider it if I wasn't 10^3's of kms away ;) | 14:18 |
| mestery | I wrote a blog on the new approach as well for folks to consume. | 14:18 |
| mestery | ajo: lol | 14:18 |
| mestery | Any other questions on the new process before we move on? | 14:18 |
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| neiljerram | No question, just warm fuzzy feelings. | 14:19 |
| mestery | neiljerram: :) | 14:19 |
| mestery | OK, lets move on! | 14:19 |
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| russellb | kind of curious why the warm fuzzy feelings | 14:19 |
| russellb | it's not less process, it's more, right?? | 14:19 |
| * mestery waits | 14:19 | |
| neiljerram | It feels very positive. | 14:19 |
| russellb | just that you get the idea acked first, which hopefully saves some wasted time | 14:20 |
| mestery | I don't think more, it's just splitting the process up. | 14:20 |
| mestery | russellb: ++ | 14:20 |
| neiljerram | Also separating out what from how sounds good to me. | 14:20 |
| ajo | russellb: slimmed spec template | 14:20 |
| russellb | mestery: ok, fair enough, 2 steps to hopefully help avoid wasted spec writing time | 14:20 |
| russellb | ok, feel free to move on | 14:20 |
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| russellb | sorry :) | 14:20 |
| mestery | russellb: Yup, exactly. | 14:20 |
| armax | russellb: on no spec at all | 14:20 |
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| russellb | armax: ok that's a part i missed, and that's kind of important, heh | 14:20 |
| mestery | lol | 14:20 |
| ajo | :) | 14:21 |
| * mestery grabs russellb some more coffee | 14:21 | |
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| russellb | i personally think specs are important for the bigger things | 14:21 |
| armax | russellb: I imagine we’ll have to wait and see in 6 months time whether things improved or not | 14:21 |
| russellb | or instead you waste even *more* time writing code | 14:21 |
| dougwig | russellb: see the spec template: "Do you even need to file a spec? Most features can be done by filing an RFE bug | 14:21 |
| dougwig | and moving on with life." | 14:21 |
| armax | and iterate in case things have gone off a cliff | 14:21 |
| mestery | russellb: Agreed! | 14:21 |
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| russellb | ok, so simple things == no spec, +1 | 14:21 |
| * russellb sits down | 14:21 | |
| mestery | russellb: We're hopefully optimizing for the small things here | 14:22 |
| dougwig | optimizing for small things, and getting consensus on smaller pieces at a time. or just building a house of cards that will catch on fire. we'll see. | 14:22 |
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| mestery | rofl | 14:22 |
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| mestery | OK with that comment from dougwig, lets move on to the next topic. | 14:23 |
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| mestery | #topic nova-network and neutron compatibility tasks | 14:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "nova-network and neutron compatibility tasks (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:23 | |
| mestery | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-nova-network | 14:23 |
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| sc68cal | hello | 14:23 |
| mestery | At the Summit, we had many good sessions with the nova team around closing the functionality gap between nova-network and neutron | 14:23 |
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| mestery | If you look on that etherpad, we have identified 9 tasks near the bottom | 14:23 |
| mestery | We need owners for a few | 14:23 |
| * mestery waves at sc68cal who is driving a lot of this | 14:23 | |
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| mestery | Sorry, 7 tasks now | 14:24 |
| * russellb took 1 \o/ | 14:24 | |
| aduarte | . | 14:24 |
| mestery | russellb: Yay! Thanks for taking the gate job for upgrade testing! | 14:24 |
| neiljerram | I was thinking of looking at the DHCP hostname one, if no one else already has that. | 14:24 |
| mestery | #info russellb takes ownership of the gate job to ensure rolling upgrades work | 14:24 |
| mestery | neiljerram: I think mlavalle has that one already, but please reach out to him | 14:24 |
| neiljerram | D'oh, sorry, there's already a name there. | 14:24 |
| mlavalle | neiljerram, mestery: Yes I have that one | 14:25 |
| mestery | We have two gaps left: distributed SNAT with DVR and "give me a network" | 14:25 |
| mestery | sc68cal has filed a spec for the latter | 14:25 |
| mestery | The former has nothing yet | 14:25 |
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| mestery | #link https://review.openstack.org/184857 "Give Me a Network" spec | 14:25 |
| neiljerram | I plan to comment on "Give Me a Network", at least... | 14:26 |
| mestery | neiljerram: Great! | 14:26 |
| sc68cal | I don't really own the spec, it's just that etherpad ate anything that was typed during the session so I tried to quickly write down what I remembered before I forgot it all | 14:26 |
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| vikram | I Will also help in review.. | 14:26 |
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| mestery | vikram: Thanks! | 14:26 |
| mestery | sc68cal: Agreed! Thanks for at least starting it | 14:27 |
| mestery | For DVR distributed SNAT, I think I'll talk to Swami and see what the plan is there. | 14:27 |
| HenryG | For #3. ARP Spoofing we need to make a decision on how to move forward. | 14:27 |
| mestery | HenryG: What is the holdup there? | 14:28 |
| HenryG | The next patch is https://review.openstack.org/157634 | 14:28 |
| markmcclain | HenryG: you were reading my mind to bring this up | 14:28 |
| mestery | :) | 14:28 |
| HenryG | markmcclain: :) | 14:28 |
| HenryG | I know markmcclain has reservations about needing to create a big ebtables manager class | 14:29 |
| armax | mestery: for some reason dvr on linux bridge has disappeared from that list? | 14:29 |
| mestery | armax: I don't think it was ever there, but lets add it. | 14:29 |
| mestery | armax: Added it | 14:29 |
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| russellb | why does this have to be ebtables? to work with LB, too? | 14:30 |
| armax | it was in the notes at the very top | 14:30 |
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| russellb | seems much easier to do in ovs | 14:30 |
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| dougwig | dvr/lb - is that because provider nets provide north-south/east-west without needing a neutron router in the mix, so that case was sort of covered? | 14:30 |
| mestery | russellb: Agreed, but keep in mind that we need to support LB as well | 14:30 |
| markmcclain | HenryG: I do... I think we should take the opportunity to design the class for our usage vs the forklifted code | 14:30 |
| russellb | mestery: *nods* | 14:31 |
| HenryG | russellb: shared networks with LB is the common use case when migrating from nova network, I believe | 14:31 |
| mestery | HenryG: ++ | 14:31 |
| marun | the current patch could definitely use a rewrite | 14:31 |
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| armax | dougwig: that sounds roughly familiar | 14:32 |
| marun | can we consider it a prototype and start again? | 14:32 |
| armax | dougwig: either way it looks like that’s not documented properly | 14:32 |
| marun | maybe with a design doc? | 14:32 |
| amotoki_ | marun: which patch are you talking about? | 14:32 |
| marun | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/157634/11 | 14:32 |
| ajo | markmcclain: jlibosva also agrees on that | 14:32 |
| mestery | HenryG: Seems like consensus is building towards a rewrite of that patch. Anyone disagree here? | 14:33 |
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| markmcclain | I think we can contribute some resources to help with the effort | 14:33 |
| mestery | markmcclain: Excellent! | 14:33 |
| ajo | I can loop in for reviews at least | 14:33 |
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| marun | I'd like to see some work on defining what problem is being solved before implementation proceeds | 14:33 |
| mestery | I know this code has a long and storied history of (not) merging, but it seems like we're driving towards better testable code here with this one. | 14:34 |
| marun | If only for the sake of future maintainers | 14:34 |
| ajo | marun +1 to devref ;) | 14:34 |
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| markmcclain | marun: +1000 | 14:34 |
| mestery | marun: And RFE perhaps? | 14:34 |
| emagana | I am here... better late than never.. my laptop crashed badly this morning~ | 14:34 |
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| ajo | mestery: may be a simple initial devref works, since that's already a dependency for two things | 14:35 |
| russellb | emagana: sounds about right. i hate computers. :-) | 14:35 |
| ajo | (source mac filtering + DVR/lb) | 14:35 |
| mestery | ajo: Makes sense. | 14:35 |
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| marun | ajo: that sounds reasonable to me. It would be a good place to have a conversation about high-level design. | 14:35 |
| mestery | marun ajo: ++ | 14:36 |
| HenryG | OK, who is going to put up an initial draft? | 14:36 |
| mestery | That was my next question :) | 14:36 |
| markmcclain | I can take a stab at it | 14:36 |
| mestery | #action markmcclain to write a devref document about ebtables code in support of source mac filtering and DVR/LB work | 14:37 |
| mestery | markmcclain: Consider it done ;) | 14:37 |
| ajo | markmcclain: loop in jlibosva, may be he has time to work on this, he already spent some time thinking about a new iptables manager design | 14:37 |
| HenryG | markmcclain: I was hoping you would, since you seemed to have an idea of what you wanted. :) Thanks! | 14:37 |
| ajo | markmcclain: even he made some prototypes | 14:37 |
| markmcclain | ajo will do | 14:37 |
| mestery | Excellent! | 14:37 |
| ajo | markmcclain +1 | 14:38 |
| mestery | ajo: Hopefully jlibosva is ok with you volunterering him all over the place :) | 14:38 |
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| ajo | mestery, probably not :D, but I guess he will be happy to provide his conclusions to previous work | 14:38 |
| * jlibosva silently reads with mixed feelings :) | 14:38 | |
| ajo | jlibosva '':D ;) +1 | 14:38 |
| mestery | lol | 14:38 |
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| * ajo hides | 14:38 | |
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| mestery | OK, any other nova-network compatibility items to discuss? | 14:39 |
| mestery | sc68cal: Anything you wanted to add? | 14:39 |
| sc68cal | The linux bridge job is failing due to the structure of DevStack's neutron-legacy file | 14:39 |
| russellb | thanks a bunch to everyone putting time on this | 14:39 |
| sc68cal | there are many things placed into the main neutron-legacy file that were OVS specific | 14:39 |
| sc68cal | so let's stop doing that in the future | 14:39 |
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| * sc68cal points to PUBLIC_BRIDGE being defined in ovs_base but referenced in neutron-legacy | 14:40 | |
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| mestery | sc68cal: I believe you have a patch on that one out for review already | 14:40 |
| mestery | sc68cal: And thanks for shepherding this through! | 14:40 |
| * russellb offers sc68cal a gold star | 14:41 | |
| sc68cal | yep, but I talked with Sam-I-Am about it and we found some other parts that are OVS specific, that we may move into ovs_base | 14:41 |
| mestery | lol | 14:41 |
| sc68cal | russellb: oooooh :) | 14:41 |
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| amotoki_ | Do we use some bug tag for nova-network compatibility? "nova-net"? I think we have several minor incompat things. | 14:41 |
| mestery | sc68cal: If you hit obstacles that need some help removing, please ping me ASAP | 14:41 |
| mestery | amotoki_: That's a good idea! | 14:41 |
| sc68cal | amotoki_: +++ good idea | 14:41 |
| sc68cal | mestery: thanks, will do. That's all from me - I'll be working on stuff today | 14:42 |
| mestery | great! | 14:42 |
| amotoki_ | "nova-net" sounds good? if so, I will add it as an official tag. | 14:42 |
| mestery | amotoki: Please do :) | 14:42 |
| amotoki_ | sure. please move on. | 14:42 |
| russellb | "nova-network" would match the actual service name | 14:42 |
| russellb | but *shrug* | 14:42 |
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| sc68cal | nova-net-compat? | 14:42 |
| russellb | even better | 14:43 |
| mestery | sc68cal: ++ | 14:43 |
| dougwig | the shorter the better, imo. | 14:43 |
| amotoki_ | sc68cal: sounds better. | 14:43 |
| russellb | that's pretty explicit, i like it | 14:43 |
| HenryG | Bike shedding alert! | 14:43 |
| ajo | lol | 14:43 |
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| russellb | too busy yak shaving to bike shed any further | 14:43 |
| dougwig | HenryG: lol | 14:43 |
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| mestery | Hey! It's yak shedding: https://twitter.com/mestery/status/605359030119354368 | 14:44 |
| mestery | :) | 14:44 |
| sc68cal | :) | 14:44 |
| HenryG | Sorry, didn't mean to offend, just trying to keep things moving. :) | 14:44 |
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| mestery | OK | 14:45 |
| mestery | Lets keep rolling | 14:45 |
| mestery | 2 more items to cover | 14:45 |
| mestery | #topic QoS | 14:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "QoS (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:45 | |
| mestery | ajo: You're up! | 14:45 |
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| ajo | hi :) | 14:45 |
| ajo | so basically, we have an agreement on how to do the api, and how to build a service plugin for qos, | 14:45 |
| mestery | yay! | 14:45 |
| ajo | and we're ok with doing it: out tree, in tree. | 14:46 |
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| mestery | ajo: Do you mean in openstack/neutron vs. something like openstack/neutron-qos? | 14:46 |
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| ajo | we couldn't decide what was best, every side has it's pro's and drawbacks... | 14:46 |
| ajo | correct :) | 14:46 |
| ajo | mestery: correct | 14:46 |
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| * mestery gets out his paint brush | 14:46 | |
| ajo | in /neutron, has more core review, but needs more core attention, also has less overhead | 14:47 |
| dougwig | ajo: that comes down to simpler integration vs faster velocity. | 14:47 |
| mestery | ajo: Another option is a feature branch on openstack/neutron | 14:47 |
| ajo | in /neutron-qos, requires less core review, introduceds more overhead | 14:47 |
| sc68cal | have we had any successful feature branches in Neutron? | 14:47 |
| mestery | ajo: And we look to merge it post Liberty-2 or something. We sync it weekly. | 14:47 |
| mestery | sc68cal: Yes! LBaaS V2! | 14:47 |
| marun | sc68cal: that's a good thing to think about | 14:47 |
| ajo | good question, but | 14:48 |
| marun | I'd vote for experimenting with a feature branch | 14:48 |
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| sc68cal | I thought it was moved into its own repo? | 14:48 |
| marun | Because we should be doing more of that | 14:48 |
| ajo | LBaaS isn't on openstack/neutron-lbaas ? | 14:48 |
| mestery | sc68cal: IT was, but it started as a feature branch | 14:48 |
| mestery | marun: ++ | 14:48 |
| armax | marun: ++ | 14:48 |
| sc68cal | hmm, that to me indicates that feature branches are not successful | 14:48 |
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| marun | feature branches *should* allow faster iteration with less overhead | 14:48 |
| dougwig | sc68cal: the lbaas feature branch never got merged, so i'm not sure it's a success story of that process. | 14:48 |
| rkukura | ajo: Is enforcing QoS likely to require siginficant support from ML2 port binding and ML2 mechanism drivers? If so, in-tree might have advantages. | 14:48 |
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| mestery | sc68cal: Why? Initially, LBaaS was in neutron and we did a feature branch for V2. Then, we made the decision to split services, which wasn't due to LBaaS V2 at all. | 14:48 |
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| ajo | rkukura: out-tree also guarantees better decoupling and better api contracts | 14:49 |
| mestery | dougwig: At the least, I'd say it was partly succesful. | 14:49 |
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| sc68cal | mestery: we can discuss after meeting, I don't want to take up time :) | 14:49 |
| ajo | well, not guarantees, but helps | 14:49 |
| dougwig | i'd want a feature branch if it has to muck with a bunch of neutron. i'd prefer external if it's a new extension and such, because then it's easier to play with with existing installs of neutron. imo. | 14:49 |
| markmcclain | I think if we're targeting L2 then a feature branch might come with too many complications | 14:49 |
| mestery | QoS is tied to ML2? | 14:49 |
| marun | markmcclain: which complications are you concerned about? | 14:49 |
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| ajo | mestery: nope, plugin wise | 14:50 |
| marun | I think for large work we should either be doing feature branches our out-of-tree | 14:50 |
| mestery | ajo: I was just confused by how it was tied to ML2, which would be bad considering we have plugins outside of ML2. | 14:50 |
| marun | Otherwise we risk getting into patch series hell | 14:50 |
| rkukura | mestery: I don’t know, but I’d think when using ML2, the port binding would need to take QoS into account to ensure requested QoS can be provided. | 14:50 |
| ajo | mestery: ack | 14:50 |
| marun | our -> or | 14:50 |
| armax | I think we can start with a feature branch, assess how the code looks like and make a call whether to merge it or spin it off | 14:50 |
| mestery | rkukura: Since ML2 is a control plane, sure, that makes sense. I was just concerned about tieing this to ML2 in some way. | 14:51 |
| markmcclain | marun: generally merges... infra usually suggests that unless if lives beyond a cycle in tree is usually better | 14:51 |
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| amotoki_ | i think feature branch fits qos work since it will require interations even if it turns out it needs to be coupled with L2. | 14:51 |
| ajo | armax: that sounds right, we could decide by the end liberty-2 or so... | 14:51 |
| ajo | my concern here | 14:51 |
| marun | markmcclain: fair enough | 14:51 |
| ajo | I'd like this to be available for people to try out by the end of liberty | 14:51 |
| rkukura | feature branch makes sense to me | 14:51 |
| ajo | if a feature branch risks it, I prefer an spin off | 14:51 |
| armax | let’s start off with a feature branch and get to the finish line quickly | 14:52 |
| mestery | #action mestery to work with ajo to find a place where QoS should live by next week. | 14:52 |
| marun | markmcclain: that would seem to conflict with what I've heard from folks on the lk side of things | 14:52 |
| mestery | ajo: ^^^ Sound ok? | 14:52 |
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| ajo | mestery, sounds very good | 14:52 |
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| mestery | OK | 14:52 |
| mestery | 8 minutes left | 14:52 |
| mestery | And one item on the agenda left | 14:52 |
| mestery | Lets move on | 14:52 |
| mestery | #topic Core and Vendor Decomp: Next Steps | 14:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Core and Vendor Decomp: Next Steps (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:52 | |
| markmcclain | marun: right I think this is one of the subtle difference in how the underlying infrastructure for the communities functions | 14:52 |
| mestery | armax HenryG: You're up | 14:53 |
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| armax | HenryG put a patch up | 14:53 |
| armax | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/187267 | 14:53 |
| HenryG | I put up an initial draft in devref | 14:53 |
| armax | the gist of it is | 14:53 |
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| armax | we want to take the core-vendor decomp work to the next phase | 14:53 |
| mestery | Nice! Uplevel the decomp! ;) | 14:54 |
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| armax | and we’ll be working on the steps as are being defined in that patch | 14:54 |
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| HenryG | One question I have not addressed is: | 14:54 |
| armax | so if everything goes according to plan plugin or driver can take place entirely out of tree | 14:55 |
| HenryG | Do we leave a shim, or is it OK to move completely out of Neutron? | 14:55 |
| armax | HenryG: out entirely | 14:55 |
| russellb | +1 | 14:55 |
| HenryG | armax: OK, I will update the doc with that for people to comment on. | 14:55 |
| armax | HenryG: a project can be marked as Neutron tented project by filing the governance patch | 14:55 |
| russellb | i'd personally prefer to see things out entirely instead of split up | 14:55 |
| russellb | all-in or all-out anyway | 14:56 |
| marun | I agree with that | 14:56 |
| marun | The shim thing was largely for political reasons | 14:56 |
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| armax | once we’re completed with this work, I think it’s sensible to consider M as the cycle where we look at what’s in what’s out and start deprecating | 14:56 |
| marun | We risked stalling if we tried to impose that last cycle | 14:56 |
| mestery | russellb: ++ | 14:56 |
| mestery | And now that we have the option of coming into the Neutron stadium | 14:56 |
| russellb | makes sense | 14:57 |
| mestery | The shims make even less sense | 14:57 |
| armax | marun: right, the change in governance model somewhat addresses that aspect | 14:57 |
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| armax | marun: but we still need to judge the 4 O’s etc | 14:57 |
| mestery | The bigger question I have is, for plugins/drivers that have not done anything yet, when do we boot them out of tree. | 14:57 |
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| armax | mestery: ^^^ | 14:57 |
| marun | armax: agreed. and efforts to provide better discoverability for neutron-related efforts should address some of the concerns around not being in-tree. | 14:57 |
| armax | see my comment above | 14:57 |
| mestery | armax: Yes, I've been looking at things which are proposed already, backends are coming under the Neutron stadium quite nicely. | 14:58 |
| mestery | armax: And even some APIs as well. | 14:58 |
| russellb | and i think there's room to do some classification of the things in the neutron tent, to still differentiate who is better a better citizen | 14:58 |
| russellb | carrot badges | 14:58 |
| marun | gamification ftw ;) | 14:58 |
| armax | healthy! | 14:59 |
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| mestery | russellb: ++ | 14:59 |
| russellb | yup! | 14:59 |
| mestery | we can't get rid of gamification no matter how hard we try | 14:59 |
| mestery | 20 seconds left | 14:59 |
| mestery | :) | 14:59 |
| mestery | OK, thanks for joining us today folks! | 14:59 |
| mestery | See you all next week! | 14:59 |
| russellb | o/ | 14:59 |
| mestery | #endmeeting | 14:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:00 | |
| yamamoto | bye | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 2 14:59:59 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-06-02-14.01.html | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-06-02-14.01.txt | 15:00 |
| vikram | bye | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-06-02-14.01.log.html | 15:00 |
| rkukura | bye | 15:00 |
| yamahata | bye | 15:00 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting gantt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 2 15:00:19 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'gantt' | 15:00 |
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| n0ano | anyone here to talk about the scheduler? | 15:00 |
| edleafe | o/ | 15:00 |
| watanabe_isao | mestery, amotoki_ , night night sir. ZZZzzz… | 15:00 |
| bauzas | \o | 15:00 |
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| lxsli | o/ | 15:01 |
| lxsli | I have a clash so won't be listening hard | 15:01 |
| * n0ano ignore my groans, I think I cracked a rib snorkeling :-( | 15:01 | |
| edleafe | yeah, I have a phone call now, too, so I may be slower than usual | 15:01 |
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| edleafe | n0ano: ouch | 15:02 |
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| PaulMurray | hi | 15:02 |
| n0ano | edleafe, lxsli NP, I know where all the ARs are going... | 15:02 |
| n0ano | anyway, let's start | 15:02 |
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| n0ano | #topic Vancouver recap | 15:02 |
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| n0ano | I hope everyone survied the return trip and we're all back hard at work. | 15:03 |
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| n0ano | I think the main take away I got was that we are pretty much staying the course, cleaning up the sched interfaces and working on the know specs/BPs | 15:03 |
| PaulMurray | I'm hardly working if that counts | 15:03 |
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| lxsli | badoom tish | 15:04 |
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| n0ano | anyone want to expand upon that? | 15:04 |
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| bauzas | currently in another discussion about the reqspec in #openstack-nova so feel free to continue :) | 15:05 |
| n0ano | bauzas, I just saw that, are you coming to any conclusions in that discusssion? | 15:05 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: not yet :) | 15:06 |
| n0ano | no surprise but it's all good. | 15:06 |
| n0ano | we don't have to go into all the gory details here but I want to update my liberty wiki to track all of our specs/BPs, I just got back and I'm dealing with computer issues so I'll bug everyone to update that later. | 15:07 |
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| edleafe | n0ano: I posted the BP for the NoValidHost reporting: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/no-valid-host-reporting | 15:08 |
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| edleafe | n0ano: The spec should be up later today | 15:08 |
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| n0ano | cool, I'll look for it and hopefully comment | 15:09 |
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| n0ano | if nothing else on Vancouver let's move on | 15:10 |
| n0ano | #topic updating concept of resource | 15:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "updating concept of resource (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:10 | |
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| n0ano | edleafe, I read your email & blog and I think you have some good ideas I just don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water | 15:10 |
| edleafe | I wrote a blog post and then followed it up with the ML post yesterday | 15:10 |
| n0ano | #link http://blog.leafe.com/rethinking-resources/ | 15:11 |
| edleafe | A resource in OpenStack is more than a server to be carved up into VPS-like chuncks | 15:11 |
| edleafe | chunks | 15:11 |
| n0ano | well, you could argue that 100% is a chunk and that would deal with the all or nothing resources | 15:12 |
| edleafe | not really | 15:12 |
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| edleafe | we have lots of things that don't split up on RAM or disk or CPU | 15:12 |
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| edleafe | we shouldn't be considering that as the model for all resources | 15:13 |
| n0ano | but dealing with multiple models could really complicate things and I'd like to be sure there's a definite benefit to doing that | 15:14 |
| edleafe | n0ano: that's where a ResourceObject comes in | 15:14 |
| edleafe | It should encapsulate the way each type of resource is handled | 15:15 |
| n0ano | are you seeing ram as one type of resource object and numa topology as a different type of resource object? | 15:15 |
| edleafe | n0ano: no | 15:15 |
| edleafe | a resource is something that we need to allocate | 15:16 |
| edleafe | the compute resources that flavors address are the traditional type of resource that openstack pretty much assumes is the *only* type of resource | 15:16 |
| edleafe | as a result, we're cramming other things, such as NUMA and PCI, into the flavor-based design | 15:17 |
| edleafe | that's a hack, IMO | 15:17 |
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| edleafe | And if you look ahead to things such as container-based hypervisors (such as LXD), the model totally falls apart | 15:18 |
| n0ano | using extra_specs to define things is arguably a hack but encapsulating everything in a flavor is OK to me, you have to encapsulate this info somehow | 15:18 |
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| lxsli | I'd like to make it a Nova problem not a scheduler problem | 15:18 |
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| edleafe | n0ano: then every possible permutation of specs is a distinct flavor | 15:18 |
| n0ano | lxsli, I would too but I don't think we can, I think the sched needs to be aware of this info | 15:19 |
| lxsli | let the scheduler just deal with resource requests | 15:19 |
| lxsli | n0ano: the API can translate "boot flavor=X" into "claim resources=[...]" | 15:19 |
| edleafe | lxsli: yes, but that still requires that we clean up how we think of resources | 15:20 |
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| n0ano | we still need to remember the cloud provider vs. the user, users ask to boot `something` while the provider defines what is available | 15:21 |
| lxsli | edleafe: can you expand on that? | 15:21 |
| PaulMurray | edleafe I don't think that's disputed is it - isn't that what we are looking to do? | 15:21 |
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| lxsli | the provider also defines what the user is allowed to ask for | 15:21 |
| edleafe | PaulMurray: not in the way that I'm thinkning | 15:21 |
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| edleafe | we're still insisting that "everything is a flavor" | 15:21 |
| n0ano | lxsli, that's my poing and that definition is done by flavors right now | 15:21 |
| lxsli | imo flavors are to prevent the user asking for weird-shaped chunks, they're nothing to do with the core job of scheduling | 15:21 |
| n0ano | s/poing/point | 15:22 |
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| edleafe | lxsli: if you move 'flavor' to the API, and leave it in the scheduler, what's the gain? | 15:22 |
| lxsli | edleafe: nope, remove it totally from scheduler | 15:22 |
| lxsli | so scheduler just deals with resources | 15:22 |
| edleafe | lxsli: yeah, I covered the weird chunks in my blog post | 15:22 |
| PaulMurray | edleafe, I think at some point a user wants to say I want an X | 15:22 |
| edleafe | PaulMurray: yes | 15:23 |
| PaulMurray | as opposed to an {a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,... oh did I forget something} | 15:23 |
| lxsli | I'm agreeing with your problems, just suggesting rather than eliminating flavors entirely we shove the concept out to the API | 15:23 |
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| PaulMurray | so I think we all agree on the resource point | 15:23 |
| n0ano | PaulMurray, +1 | 15:23 |
| edleafe | PaulMurray: but they'll say I want an X with this network config and this NUMA topology and ... | 15:23 |
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| edleafe | PaulMurray: and thus the provider will have to offer a flavor for every possible combination | 15:24 |
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| PaulMurray | edleafe, yes and no | 15:24 |
| edleafe | lxsli: no, don't eliminate flavors | 15:24 |
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| PaulMurray | edleafe, they may chose to support only a certain combination | 15:24 |
| lxsli | if we constrain the scope of flavor code, potentially it becomes pluggable so operators can decide what request validation works for them | 15:24 |
| PaulMurray | edleafe, but they may allow you to make up combinations | 15:24 |
| edleafe | lxsli: just apply them to resources that are divisible (i.e., like VPS instances) | 15:24 |
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| edleafe | PaulMurray: anything that the user might possibly pick is a defined flavor | 15:25 |
| edleafe | lxsli: flavors would only apply to ResourceObjects that follow the "traditional" computing model | 15:26 |
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| edleafe | i.e., things that can be sliced up should have a sane way of limiting the slicing | 15:26 |
| n0ano | edleafe, then how does a user as for, say, a specific SR/IOV device? | 15:26 |
| n0ano | s/as for/ask for | 15:27 |
| edleafe | n0ano: that's an additional requirement for the request | 15:27 |
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| edleafe | it would be evaluated separately from the flavor constraint | 15:27 |
| edleafe | it would *not* be part of the flavor | 15:27 |
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| n0ano | and how does the provider control what a additional requirements are available | 15:27 |
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| edleafe | n0ano: that would go back to lxsli's point of enforcing that at the API level | 15:28 |
| edleafe | that's not a Scheduler decision | 15:28 |
| lxsli | edleafe: so you agree that the scheduler API should not know about flavors? Just resources? | 15:29 |
| edleafe | lxsli: a flavor is simply one type of request constraint | 15:29 |
| n0ano | well, it's never really been a sched decision, we're done that implicitly in the definition of the flavors | 15:29 |
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| edleafe | n0ano: but look at the mess we have created by trying to jam everything into a flavor | 15:30 |
| lxsli | the scheduler looks at flavors today though, rather than the flavor having been fully unpacked before the request gets to the scheduler | 15:30 |
| edleafe | the cloud technology choices are only going to expand in the future | 15:30 |
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| n0ano | I think i'm beginning to agree with lxsli have nova decompose flavor (or whatever) and only have the scheduler see resource requests | 15:31 |
| edleafe | n0ano: yes, that would make things a lot cleaner | 15:32 |
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| lxsli | \o/ | 15:32 |
| edleafe | it would also eliminate the current issue with cells not getting defined flavors replicated to each cell | 15:32 |
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| edleafe | since cells would only get the resource request | 15:32 |
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| n0ano | and would also make the sched less nova centric | 15:33 |
| edleafe | What I'd like to get you all thinking about is the notion that there are different types of Resources | 15:33 |
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| edleafe | and each different type can have different request constraints | 15:34 |
| edleafe | n0ano: this would also move things to making the scheduler not Nova-centric | 15:34 |
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| lxsli | In my rewrite of Jay's spec, I'm proposing Integer, NUMA and PCI ResourceTypes each with their own matching and consumption logic | 15:34 |
| edleafe | since other services could define their own resource classes and request constraints | 15:34 |
| n0ano | edleafe, but I still want to allow a user to request a provider defined instance, we just need to expand the definition of a flavor maybe | 15:35 |
| edleafe | lxsli: how is an Integer a resource? | 15:35 |
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| edleafe | sounds more like a constraint type | 15:35 |
| lxsli | it's not, it's a resourcetype - eg vcpus is an integer resource, so is memory | 15:35 |
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| edleafe | lxsli: ah, we're overloading terms | 15:36 |
| lxsli | both of those are matched (a <= b) and consumed (a -= b) the same | 15:36 |
| lxsli | edleafe: yes naming is hard >.< | 15:36 |
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| edleafe | I was using resource type to mean the type of resource being requested: compute, network, bare metal, etc. | 15:36 |
| lxsli | I'm calling a Resource an amount, with a type, optionally from a ResourcePool (IE a compute host) | 15:36 |
| edleafe | I was calling the things like vcpus a constraint | 15:37 |
| n0ano | edleafe, call yours `class` and we should be good | 15:37 |
| lxsli | maybe if we called compute, network etc rsource cells we could make some heads explode? :) | 15:37 |
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| n0ano | lxsli, don't even go there :-) | 15:38 |
| edleafe | lxsli: +1 lol | 15:38 |
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| edleafe | no, "resource zones" | 15:38 |
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| lxsli | anyway... it sounds like we have broad agreement that flavors aren't needed in scheduler and they make it nova-centric? any volunteers to spec that, edleafe? | 15:39 |
| n0ano | edleafe, back to your classes, note that compute encompasses multiple things, some enumeratable (RAM), some not (NUMA topology), how dos that fit? | 15:39 |
| edleafe | PaulMurray: to get back to the provider view, they could say "we offer compute instances in the following sizes: ..." | 15:39 |
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| edleafe | PaulMurray: "and you can add these options: ..." | 15:39 |
| n0ano | lxsli, me, I'm going to see if I can write a spec on moving flavors out of the scheduler | 15:39 |
| lxsli | n0ano: awesome | 15:39 |
| lxsli | btw I was chatting with claudiub about multiple flavours at the summit | 15:40 |
| n0ano | lxsli, say that `after` I've written something | 15:40 |
| edleafe | n0ano: those different constraints would be handled the way the lxsli was talking about in jaypipe's spec | 15:40 |
| lxsli | it might be quite nice to be able to have "VPS" flavors, "SRIOV" flavors and to be able to pick one of each | 15:40 |
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| edleafe | lxsli: yes, that's sort of what I had in mind | 15:41 |
| edleafe | different types of resources | 15:41 |
| edleafe | although the name 'flavor' should DIAFF | 15:41 |
| lxsli | hehe | 15:41 |
| n0ano | treating impossible combinations of multiple flavors as a user problem? | 15:41 |
| claudiub | o/ | 15:41 |
| lxsli | treating it as a validation problem | 15:41 |
| lxsli | a good start might be "at most one flavor per resource" | 15:42 |
| n0ano | still a user problem, I predict the user will get a very informative `boot request failed' | 15:42 |
| edleafe | n0ano: No, they should get back an API validation error | 15:42 |
| lxsli | edleafe: +1 | 15:43 |
| lxsli | that can easily be very informative as it doesn't have to get copied through multiple services | 15:43 |
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| edleafe | lxsli: it could also be customizable middleware that different vendors could set up for their own products | 15:44 |
| n0ano | still a little worried that a user asks for something that he thinks should work and it doesn't but that's probably Ok | 15:44 |
| lxsli | edleafe: +1 | 15:44 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: since I'm fully uberloaded by the discussion on the chan, could you please ping me when you're at the open topic ? | 15:44 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, sure, probably soon | 15:44 |
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| n0ano | edleafe, good discussion, do you want to maybe update your blog with some of the results from today? | 15:45 |
| edleafe | n0ano: If they're using the web interface, there isn't any problem. If they're using the command line, they're probably use to deciphering messages | 15:45 |
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| edleafe | n0ano: I would prefer that people respond on the ML instead - more eyes than my puny blog :) | 15:46 |
| edleafe | I'll certainly post a reply | 15:46 |
| edleafe | you all can argue with that | 15:46 |
| edleafe | :) | 15:46 |
| n0ano | edleafe, reasonable, a reply to that would be good | 15:46 |
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| n0ano | edleafe, cool | 15:47 |
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| n0ano | moving on... | 15:47 |
| n0ano | #topic opens | 15:47 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "opens (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:47 | |
| n0ano | bauzas, ping | 15:47 |
| lxsli | edleafe: I responded and no one replied v.v | 15:47 |
| n0ano | lxsli, I intend to reply today (traveling yesterday) | 15:47 |
| edleafe | lxsli: I saw it but waited for this meeting | 15:47 |
| lxsli | yay <3 | 15:48 |
| edleafe | n0ano: two things | 15:48 |
| edleafe | one, jaypipes has a standing meeting at this time | 15:48 |
| edleafe | he requested that we move this meeting if possible | 15:48 |
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| edleafe | second, can we remove the 'gantt' stuff from the meeting topic? | 15:49 |
| bauzas | n0ano: yea | 15:49 |
| lxsli | I can do 1-2 hours later or up to 7 hours earlier | 15:49 |
| n0ano | sigh, I can try, finding an open slot that works for everyone can be difficult | 15:49 |
| bauzas | n0ano: so I was about discussing about 2 points, but edleafe hijacked me | 15:49 |
| bauzas | n0ano: doodle | 15:49 |
| edleafe | bauzas: you snooze you lose | 15:49 |
| n0ano | edleafe, I don't know why people object to gantt, it's just a name, but sure, I can remove it | 15:50 |
| edleafe | n0ano: it has baggage | 15:50 |
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| lxsli | n0ano: I find it's best to survey the most busy people first then present options to the less busy people | 15:50 |
| claudiub | so... I did not get to read all the meeting log, but I do have a question, I don't know if it was asked before or not... how can compute nodes report any extra resources they have? | 15:50 |
| claudiub | that might be needed for any of the extra-flavors that users might need? | 15:50 |
| claudiub | e.g. GPU? | 15:51 |
| n0ano | lxsli, 7 hrs earlier is problematic for my timezone so I probably won't try that :-) | 15:51 |
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| lxsli | up to :) guessing later will be what happens | 15:51 |
| lxsli | claudiub: we need a pluggable resource provider system | 15:51 |
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| n0ano | claudiub, most of the discussion has been on how to request resources, not on how they are reported | 15:52 |
| claudiub | n0ano: I get that, but having resources reported seems to me like a part of a whole. | 15:53 |
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| lxsli | to make the scheduler usable outside Nova, other projects need to be able to supply the appropriate parts of resource tracker | 15:53 |
| claudiub | lxsli: are there some details / spec / bp for that? | 15:53 |
| lxsli | claudiub: I'm working on a spec around resource objects which may touch on it but it's probably a separate spec | 15:53 |
| n0ano | claudiub, no arguement, that should be part of the resource tracker | 15:53 |
| edleafe | n0ano: so we | 15:54 |
| edleafe | ugh | 15:54 |
| lxsli | 5 mins | 15:54 |
| edleafe | so we'll need a RT for any project that need scheduling services | 15:54 |
| claudiub | lxsli: can you add me as a reviewer to that spec? I'm interested on how that will be implemented | 15:55 |
| lxsli | if edleafe + claudiub are done, should we let bauzas speak? | 15:55 |
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| lxsli | claudiub: sure thing! | 15:55 |
| edleafe | or some comparable reporting thing | 15:55 |
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| claudiub | i'm done | 15:55 |
| claudiub | ty folks | 15:55 |
| n0ano | lxsli, edleafe spoke for bauzas | 15:55 |
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| lxsli | ahaa great | 15:55 |
| edleafe | when has bauzas ever needed permission to speak? :) | 15:55 |
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| lxsli | True, true | 15:55 |
| bauzas | speak | 15:55 |
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| edleafe | n0ano: +1 for a doodle to find a time | 15:56 |
| bauzas | anyway, I didn't really followed that meeting, so I won't say something more than zero :) | 15:56 |
| edleafe | n0ano: do you want me to set it up? | 15:56 |
| n0ano | edleafe, sure, that'd be great | 15:56 |
| * n0ano doesn't do doodle or etherpads, I'm a luddite | 15:56 | |
| edleafe | #action edleafe to create doodle for new meeting time | 15:56 |
| n0ano | anyway, any last minute opens? | 15:57 |
| lxsli | who's coming to midcycle? | 15:57 |
| n0ano | lxsli, me for one | 15:57 |
| * edleafe is | 15:57 | |
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| edleafe | lxsli: can you make it? | 15:58 |
| lxsli | Yep | 15:58 |
| edleafe | kewl | 15:58 |
| n0ano | OK, tnx everyone, we have to close | 15:58 |
| lxsli | thanks all | 15:58 |
| n0ano | #endmeeting | 15:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 2 15:58:33 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-06-02-15.00.html | 15:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-06-02-15.00.txt | 15:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-06-02-15.00.log.html | 15:58 |
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| bauzas | ndipanov: lxsli: edleafe: based on my findings, my chances to come at midcycle are close to zero | 16:02 |
| bauzas | oops | 16:02 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: nvm | 16:02 |
| bauzas | n0ano: ^ | 16:02 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, ack | 16:20 |
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| morganfainberg | ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, bknudson, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rharwood, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, stevemar, topol, wanghong | 17:55 |
| morganfainberg | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 17:55 |
| ayoung | Yep | 17:55 |
| marekd | bonjour! | 17:55 |
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| lbragstad | morganfainberg: o/ | 17:55 |
| dstanek | \o | 17:55 |
| bknudson | aloha | 17:55 |
| gabriel-bezerra | o/ | 17:56 |
| topol | o/ | 17:56 |
| samueldmq | bom dia | 17:56 |
| samueldmq | o/ | 17:56 |
| gyee | \o | 17:56 |
| rharwood | \o/ | 17:56 |
| ericksonsantos | \o | 17:56 |
| lhcheng | o/ | 17:56 |
| david8hu | Olá | 17:56 |
| david8hu | \o | 17:56 |
| davechen | \o | 17:56 |
| samueldmq | david8hu, oO | 17:56 |
| browne | hi | 17:56 |
| * breton greets everyone | 17:56 | |
| morganfainberg | hows everyone? | 17:57 |
| lbragstad | samueldmq: bem-vindo | 17:57 |
| topol | great! | 17:57 |
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| dstanek | morganfainberg: energized! | 17:57 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: great to hear | 17:57 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad, oh great, that will be easier to me to carry some discussions in portuguese with you and david8hu next summit o/ | 17:57 |
| lbragstad | samueldmq: as long as I can use translate.google.com :) | 17:58 |
| ericksonsantos | lol | 17:58 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad, hehe o/ | 17:58 |
| gyee | what's cooking? | 17:58 |
| * topol lbragstad is a total fraud on the foreign lang front | 17:58 | |
| morganfainberg | hah | 17:59 |
| gabriel-bezerra | hehehehehe | 17:59 |
| gabriel-bezerra | :) | 17:59 |
| morganfainberg | Ok lets get this going | 17:59 |
| samueldmq | haha :) | 17:59 |
| morganfainberg | #startmeeting Keystone | 17:59 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 2 17:59:29 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is morganfainberg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:59 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 17:59 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 17:59 |
| morganfainberg | Welcome back! First meeting post summit | 17:59 |
| stevemar | o/ | 17:59 |
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| marekd | Vancouver was great! | 17:59 |
| david8hu | samueldmq, I will bring my personal translator, google. | 18:00 |
| breton | marekd: indeed | 18:00 |
| samueldmq | david8hu, haha | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | so, lets get moving. I'm going to hold on the summit rundown until the end | 18:00 |
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| morganfainberg | i think we all know how the summit went | 18:00 |
| ayoung | L1 is in 4 weeks | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | we were (except henrynash) there! | 18:00 |
| htruta | a little bit late, bom dia as well | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | and yes L1 is rolling up on us | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | meaning... | 18:01 |
| david8hu | It was nice to meet everyone in person. | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Liberty-1 | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Liberty-1 (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| ayoung | liberty-1 (Jun 23-25) | 18:01 |
| ayoung | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Liberty_Release_Schedule | 18:01 |
| ayoung | 3 weeks | 18:01 |
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| morganfainberg | #info Liberty-1 is Spec Proposal Freeze, work on specs and review specs. Target is June 23. | 18:01 |
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| morganfainberg | after L1 - we will need emails for spec proposal freeze exceptions | 18:02 |
| ayoung | I'll start writing them now | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: thanks. | 18:02 |
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| morganfainberg | #topic What's going on with auth plugins and client? | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "What's going on with auth plugins and client? (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:02 | |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson: (and I assume jamielennox...who isn't here) | 18:02 |
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| ayoung_Eeyeore | Your welcome | 18:02 |
| bknudson | y, what's going on? | 18:02 |
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| bknudson | are we supposed to be merging changes to auth plugins? | 18:03 |
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| bknudson | or are they all going to a different repo now? | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: auth plugins must be maintained and run as they are within KSC for now | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg | unless they are specifically split out | 18:03 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: new plugins go to KSA only, right? | 18:03 |
| gyee | they are part of the newly minted ksa repo right? | 18:03 |
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| morganfainberg | marekd: keystoneauth is not ready for primetime | 18:04 |
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| morganfainberg | keystoneauth is being worked on and will become the real-deal soon | 18:04 |
| bknudson | we have openstack/python-keystoneclient , openstack/python-keystoneclient-kerberos , openstack/python-keystoneclient-saml2, openstack/keystoneauth repos | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | but if you need it sooner, it needs to land in keystoneclient | 18:04 |
| breton | morganfainberg: is there a roadmap? | 18:04 |
| gyee | bknudson, you are scaring me | 18:04 |
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| marekd | morganfainberg: in terms of federation i'd strongly advocate for proper work in ksa. | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | breton: i am hoping keystoneauth to be ready by L1 | 18:04 |
| breton | morganfainberg: I would really like to participate, but don't know where to start | 18:05 |
| bknudson | gyee: that's why I'm bringing it up at the meeting since I have no idea what we're supposed to be doing | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | then we start working on moving things over | 18:05 |
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| marekd | federation plugins in KSC are kind of messy, it'd become even more messier with deprecations and backwards compatibility. jamie advised on simply adding fixed version to KSA | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: so, -kerberos and -saml2 is about having system level dependencies | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | and often platform specific | 18:05 |
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| marekd | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:05 |
| bknudson | so these are supported repos? | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | if it's pure python minimal deps i can go in keystoneclient or keystoneauth | 18:05 |
| bknudson | I don't think we ever picked them up in our product | 18:06 |
| marekd | bknudson: saml2 not yet. | 18:06 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson: kerberos has been released and is available. | 18:06 |
| stevemar | bknudson, they arent even released yet | 18:06 |
| marekd | bknudson: in fact, i think we will need with it for ksa release. | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg | not sure how widespread it is. | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg | if at all used | 18:06 |
| marekd | bknudson: which means another project rename (ksc-federation -> ksc-saml2 -> ksa-saml2) | 18:06 |
| * morganfainberg wishes jamielennox was here | 18:06 | |
| dstanek | can they go away if we start using pbr's new optional dep feature (i don't know much about it) | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: maybe. | 18:07 |
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| samueldmq | morganfainberg, I guess he got too happy with devstack working with v3 (I saw a message from him saying that) | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: however, the whole optional dep thing is still really poor ux. | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | in python packages imo | 18:07 |
| gyee | we are keeping tab on all these repos in a nice readme file somewhere right? | 18:07 |
| mordred | hi | 18:07 |
| gyee | right? | 18:07 |
| davechen | morganfainberg: for what's keystoneauth is split out? this should be dump question? | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | gyee: governance/projects.yaml | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | mordred: hi | 18:08 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: maybe, but so if fighting to find the right package to install all the time | 18:08 |
| marekd | davechen: so services like nova don't need to include ksc | 18:08 |
| mordred | morganfainberg: I was summoned by mention of pbr | 18:08 |
| anteaya | mordred: dstanek was invoking a little known pbr feature | 18:08 |
| marekd | whereas they only need auth plugins. | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | mordred: optional dependencies | 18:08 |
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| mordred | yah. I think that's not ready for prime time yet | 18:08 |
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| morganfainberg | dstanek: ^^ | 18:08 |
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| dstanek | anteaya: so little known that i only know the name :-) | 18:08 |
| mordred | I believe you're talking about extras and the ability to do things like "pip install ksa[kerberos]" | 18:08 |
| anteaya | dstanek: ha ha ha typical pbr | 18:08 |
| dstanek | mordred: yes, exactly | 18:09 |
| mordred | lifeless: ^^ we're not ready for people to start doing that yet, right? | 18:09 |
| dstanek | mordred: it just mimics what distutils/setuptools does right? | 18:09 |
| bknudson | how does it know what files are kerberos files? | 18:09 |
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| morganfainberg | mordred: is lifeless awake at this time? | 18:09 |
| lifeless | no, I'm not. | 18:09 |
| mordred | bknudson: more entries in setup.cfg | 18:09 |
| lifeless | sec, scanning for context | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | lifeless: moar coffee then. | 18:09 |
| lifeless | morganfainberg: nup, I cold turkeyed a couple years back. | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | lifeless: /impressed | 18:10 |
| ayoung | lifeless, /me depressed | 18:10 |
| bknudson | now he doesn't sleep | 18:10 |
| dstanek | lifeless: the short, short is that we have a packaging fetish and like to have lots of them - was hoping that using pbr's extras we could stop that | 18:10 |
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| morganfainberg | mordred: though the pip install ksa[kerberos] would be nice. | 18:10 |
| lifeless | dstanek: extras is implemented in pbr 1.0.0 and usable | 18:11 |
| bknudson | could be python-keystoneclient[auth] | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: no. | 18:11 |
| marekd | so now we are all going to merge all the repos...? | 18:11 |
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| morganfainberg | auth should not depend on keystonelcient at all | 18:11 |
| dstanek | lifeless: cool, thx | 18:11 |
| lifeless | environment markers have a small glitch in the setuptools easy_install interactions tchaypo is tracking down, so that isn't quite ready. | 18:11 |
| lifeless | so yeah, foo[bar] is entirely doable now. | 18:11 |
| lifeless | but | 18:11 |
| lifeless | two caveats | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: but the kerberos/system specific things probably should be merged down then if this "works" | 18:12 |
| lifeless | firstly, its a union with foo | 18:12 |
| lifeless | foo[bar] == foo + foo's extra called bar. | 18:12 |
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| lifeless | (not everyone realises this) | 18:12 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson: ^ which is why keystoneauth will still be a thing. | 18:12 |
| lifeless | secondly, we haven't yet taught update.py in global-requirements about syncing into setup.cfg. | 18:12 |
| dstanek | lifeless: can bar map to a list of packages? | 18:12 |
| lifeless | That is on the cards in the short term, but its a thing to be cognizant of | 18:13 |
| lifeless | dstanek: yes | 18:13 |
| lifeless | dstanek: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/pbr/#extra-requirements | 18:13 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, so...kerberos and X509 client auth should probably not be an auth pluging | 18:13 |
| ayoung | but rather should be some sort of session plugin | 18:13 |
| ayoung | you don't just want them for auth | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: take that up w/ jamielennox :P | 18:14 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, I did | 18:14 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung: i don't want to specifically jump into session plugins here | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | vs. auth plugins | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | vs other things | 18:14 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, it is a repo naming issue | 18:14 |
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| ayoung | we have been talking about auth plugins, and a big part of the name kludge came from not really understanding where things should live | 18:15 |
| lifeless | you can do foo[bar,quux] of course, which does what you'd think: unions them all together | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: so i think the answer is: the stuff we split out can be merged back in and dropped *except* keystoneauth will still be a thing to specfically handle auth/session/etc | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | without needing the CRUD interface support of keystoneclient's library | 18:15 |
| ayoung | we want to split upon dependency lines, | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | (silly to require crud for auth) | 18:15 |
| bknudson | so do you want us to -1 everything related to auth plugins since we don't know what's going on? | 18:15 |
| ayoung | most of the federation auth plugin code is common across the different Fed mechanisms, it is a session difference which determines, not the auth plugin | 18:15 |
| marekd | bknudson: where, -1 in ksc ? | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: since jamie isn't here | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | lets loop him in later and resovle this | 18:16 |
| bknudson | marekd: yes, in ksc | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | right now i can't say for sure one way or another what is going on. | 18:16 |
| bknudson | I haven't been looking at the other ones... don't know if anyone is. | 18:16 |
| marekd | bknudson: okay, then. I agree. | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: i have but lets defer and get jamie in | 18:16 |
| marekd | bknudson: I am doing small refactors in KSA | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: i'd like to drop the other repos. but likely keystoneclient is where things need to go for now. | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg | until KSA is done. | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg | s/done/ready | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg | then we have to migrate over | 18:17 |
| gyee | sounds like a plan | 18:17 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: but l1 is roughly 3 weeks. Is it THAT long time? | 18:17 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, is ksa just going to be auth plugins? | 18:17 |
| bknudson | ksa includes session | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: it holds all the sesson, adapter, discovery code, etc | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: the things you'd need to auth against keystone w/o the keystoneclient crud | 18:18 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung: it's very specifically to make keystoneclient the crud interface and not be required for everything | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg | just like you don't need novaclient to use cinderclient | 18:18 |
| breton | folks, is there a description of what ksa will be? A spec or something? | 18:18 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg, removing auth from ksclient ? | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg | samueldmq: yes. it is splitting the concerns | 18:19 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg, well, at least making something in charge of "just" auth | 18:19 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg, got it, thanks | 18:19 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg, auth crud api <- :( | 18:19 |
| bknudson | I think it's a good idea to split out ksa ... but it's complicating things until it's ready. | 18:19 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg, making people get confused | 18:19 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: let me repeat the question - there are chances (reasonably big) that ksa will be released around l1 which is June 23rd, right? | 18:19 |
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| morganfainberg | marekd: i want that to be the case | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | marekd: but... i cannot answer that w/o jamielennox | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | who is not here | 18:20 |
| bknudson | you want people to work on ksa so we can get it done? | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | which is why we need to defer | 18:20 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: I am asking, cause in some cases it's better to star with fresh ksa without backwards compatibility spaghetti code and wait that 3 weeks. | 18:20 |
| marekd | s/star/start/ | 18:20 |
| anteaya | liberty1 is june 23: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Liberty_Release_Schedule | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | so i want this to be the case | 18:21 |
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| morganfainberg | but again, i repeat, i cannot answer without jamielennox at the moment | 18:21 |
| marekd | anteya: so, 3 weeks or i am missing something.... | 18:21 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: I understand that! | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | so l1 is the target | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | ~3wks | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | it may not happen in 3wks | 18:21 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: that satisfies me | 18:21 |
| marekd | let's move on. | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | it may be much longer | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | ok moving on | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | #action Followup with Jamie Lennox about Keystoneauth and "ready" timetables | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Keystone IdP config API - an API to configure Keystone IdPs instead of using the config file | 18:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Keystone IdP config API - an API to configure Keystone IdPs instead of using the config file (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:22 | |
| morganfainberg | rodrigods, gabriel-bezerra o/ | 18:23 |
| gabriel-bezerra | hi | 18:23 |
| stevemar | ohhh thats a good one | 18:23 |
| henrynash | (this sounds awfully familiar) | 18:23 |
| bknudson | we should be moving away from config file in general if we can. | 18:23 |
| gyee | ++++++++++++ | 18:23 |
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| gabriel-bezerra | this is a pain gyee talked about in the Federated Demo Deep Dive session in the summit | 18:23 |
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| gabriel-bezerra | #link https://youtu.be/dl010R-bZHw?t=17m15s | 18:23 |
| gyee | only problem is we need shibboleth and mellon to be able to dynamically pull the config | 18:23 |
| dstanek | gabriel-bezerra: data stored in a database? | 18:24 |
| marekd | wait. | 18:24 |
| marekd | are we talking SP or IDP ? | 18:24 |
| ayoung | we can work on getting support into mellon | 18:24 |
| gabriel-bezerra | so, we (rodrigods) would like to do that: specs and code | 18:24 |
| gyee | marekd, adding a new IdP from SP side | 18:24 |
| ayoung | we had already started discussions with out team's mellon maintainer | 18:25 |
| gabriel-bezerra | it's about idp | 18:25 |
| marekd | gabriel-bezerra: explain please | 18:25 |
| ayoung | there is some prior-art, like mod_authz_mysql | 18:25 |
| gabriel-bezerra | #link http://rodrigods.com/it-is-time-to-play-with-keystone-to-keystone-federation-in-kilo/ | 18:25 |
| gabriel-bezerra | according to him, it's about putting the part in the 'Keysonte as an IdP' section in the database | 18:25 |
| marekd | gabriel-bezerra: because i think you are talking 2 thing now. | 18:26 |
| henrynash | let’s also learn from the experience we had doing the domain config management API (see: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/187249/) | 18:26 |
| gyee | marekd, right now, to add a new IdP from SP, one needs to write chef/puppet/ansible/your-favorite-deploy-script | 18:26 |
| ayoung | Please make sure that whatever approach you take is not Keystone specific. If Keystone needs, any SAML consumer will need it | 18:26 |
| marekd | gyee: so it's SP, not IdP. | 18:26 |
| gyee | marekd, right, introducing new IdP from SP | 18:27 |
| ayoung | marekd, I think it needs to be any of the above | 18:27 |
| ayoung | new IdP, new SP | 18:27 |
| henrynash | e.g. issues doing crud of “config options” in a multi-process keystone | 18:27 |
| ayoung | henrynash, +++++ | 18:27 |
| gabriel-bezerra | henrynash: yes, thanks for the reference | 18:27 |
| dstanek | henrynash: yes, that is why i asked about a database... | 18:27 |
| bknudson | we've had issues with doing crud of any objects in multi-process | 18:27 |
| henrynash | bknudson: so true | 18:28 |
| marekd | ayoung: in K2K we have API for that, ADFS also supports it in the runtime. I think guys simply want to do SP side. | 18:28 |
| dstanek | at summit i heard someone talking about it writing to a config file and that's just going to cause problems | 18:28 |
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| marekd | i don't fully understand how keystone should help this, as it's more Apache thing. | 18:28 |
| ayoung | marekd, yeah, we could extract it compleetly out of the Keystone code base if we had an external discovery service, but that is not how we are headed. | 18:28 |
| ayoung | We put the "discover" dropdown right there on the Horizon login page | 18:29 |
| gsilvis | dstanek: that might have been me. it's not actually tenable, but we might end up doing it anyways to get a demo working | 18:29 |
| dstanek | marekd: that's why we've started talking about fixing shib a mellon | 18:29 |
| ayoung | dstanek, ++ | 18:29 |
| marekd | dstanek: yes. | 18:29 |
| marekd | pretty intersting thing, would be happy to code some C | 18:29 |
| gyee | this is not about discovery, its about cleanly draw a line between "administration" and "configuration" | 18:29 |
| dstanek | gsilvis: demo would be good, but we shouldn't merge it | 18:29 |
| gabriel-bezerra | gyee: ++ | 18:29 |
| gsilvis | dstanek: agree | 18:29 |
| gyee | administration should be all APIs | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | so across the board yes. | 18:30 |
| dolphm | gyee: ++ | 18:30 |
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| geoffarnold_ | o\ | 18:30 |
| geoffarnold_ | We'll need it for Mercador, of course | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | however, .... if the answer is write files to disk that (config), i am against keystone growing into a CMS too | 18:30 |
| marekd | ++ | 18:30 |
| gyee | geoffarnold, I haven't seen any code in mercador yet | 18:30 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:30 |
| stevemar | gyee, patience my friend | 18:31 |
| marekd | gabriel-bezerra: so, what's your idea? | 18:31 |
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| marekd | how do you want to solve this? | 18:31 |
| geoffarnold_ | there isn't any - empty repos right now while we get it from github to stackforge | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | marekd: i think we need to talk to shib folks | 18:31 |
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| marekd | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | and RH can take on mod_mellon | 18:31 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: i see the desire for that, but I think keystone should have nothing to do with that... | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | correct | 18:31 |
| gabriel-bezerra | well, I'll take these points to rodrigods and we can have more details in what we should be doing. | 18:31 |
| gyee | marekd, if mellon can pull the config dynamically from (say) an endpoint, we should have a good solution there | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | this is not a keystone "thing" | 18:32 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: all in all, keystone is protocol agnostic, right? | 18:32 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: exactly. | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | it's a "keystone could leverage something behind it" | 18:32 |
| gyee | acceptable anyway | 18:32 |
| dstanek | maybe we should make sure that shib and mellon can be similar enough not to cause compat problems | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | but it would be generic | 18:32 |
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| morganfainberg | since neither can do this today | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | ... | 18:32 |
| * topol suprised no one mentioned zookeeper yet | 18:32 | |
| morganfainberg | topol: shhhhhhhh ;) | 18:32 |
| gabriel-bezerra | and we'd just like to let you guys know we'd like to do it. | 18:33 |
| marekd | let's use zookeeper and Cassandra! | 18:33 |
| dolphm | topol: nevermind the elephants | 18:33 |
| marekd | topol: ^^ there you are! | 18:33 |
| jsavak | elastic search backend to keystone! | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | since neither are able to take this config from non-file sources at the moment | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | we have to defer this | 18:33 |
| dstanek | topol: zookeeper brings death and destruction wherever it goes | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | there is not a lot we can do until the dependencies we rely on can receive this. | 18:33 |
| ayoung | I think the right solution is along the lines of ADFS: make it someone elses problem, single discovery service. Ipsilon for us. | 18:33 |
| gyee | while we are at it, store policies in zookeeper :) | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | so, yes. we should, we should reach out and ask the projects what we can do to help. we have not much else to do in Keystone | 18:34 |
| marekd | dstanek: what are the technologies that don't bring death? redis does, mongo does, zookeeper does....:) | 18:34 |
| geoffarnold_ | i'd love to have an oslo-programmable-config service to lean on, but.... | 18:34 |
| bknudson | keep your PKI certs in zookeeper | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | whoa.. ok ok | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | stop | 18:34 |
| gabriel-bezerra | morganfainberg, ayoung: I see. | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | enough we're getting punchy moving on | 18:34 |
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| gabriel-bezerra | thanks for the feedback | 18:34 |
| dstanek | marekd: redis has been good to me :-) | 18:34 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, its turning into a zoo here | 18:35 |
| marekd | dstanek: ough, sorry, thought i had heard some bad thing about redis from your mouth...:P | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | gabriel-bezerra: marekd ayoung: please follow up with the respective projects (shib, etc) and see what you can do | 18:35 |
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| morganfainberg | it is out of scope of keystone though. | 18:35 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | #topic No one uses keystonemiddleware's memcache_pool | 18:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "No one uses keystonemiddleware's memcache_pool (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:35 | |
| morganfainberg | breton: o/ | 18:35 |
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| breton | yep | 18:35 |
| breton | there is review to ksm https://review.openstack.org/#/c/171264/ | 18:35 |
| breton | it fixes a critical problem in memcache pool backend of keystonemiddleware | 18:35 |
| breton | it turns out, that the problem is there since the memcache pool inclusion, since original patch | 18:35 |
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| morganfainberg | i'm wondering if it was downstream fixed | 18:36 |
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| morganfainberg | honestly and not contributed for the few folks who have used it | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | it is not commonly used thats for sure | 18:36 |
| breton | we in Mirantis use memcache_pool in keystone, but not in ksm | 18:36 |
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| bknudson | still no unit tests | 18:36 |
| breton | the code there is old an not maintained. We did some fixes to memcache pool in keystone, but not in ksm. | 18:36 |
| breton | does anybody even use it? | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson breton: I'm fine with dropping it. | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | no unit tests, no bug reports. | 18:36 |
| bknudson | there's no unit tests for the fix... I don't know about the rest of it | 18:37 |
| ayoung | drop it, see who screams | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | we still need to move away from python-memcache but i looked at the overlap with it and pymemcache, pymemcache doesn't support multiple servers but out of the box supports pools | 18:37 |
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| breton | I mostly wanted to hear from someone who uses it. It seems no one here does. | 18:38 |
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| morganfainberg | breton: based on thread.local + eventlet, everyone should be using it | 18:38 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: doesn't support hashing to different memcached instances? | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: nope | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: cannot connect to multiple instances at all | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: has everything else though :( | 18:38 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: that's useless | 18:38 |
| breton | morganfainberg: well, no. A lot of stuff runs eventlet in MOS and we don't use it | 18:39 |
| marekd | MOS? | 18:39 |
| breton | Mirantis Openstack, our distro | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | breton: this is used in lots of services and results in potential DOS - hence the thread.local fix of using the pool | 18:39 |
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| breton | then why there are no bug reports? | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | my guess is everyone blames another part of openstack when they get hit by FD/socket exaughstion / slowness because of eventlet | 18:40 |
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| morganfainberg | breton: because it is an opt-in. most people use in-process dict caching | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | with memorycache | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | but some larget deployments use memcache | 18:40 |
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| breton | yep. And don't use memcache_pool. | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | and those *should* use the pool. | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | but again, is opt in | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | my guess is they don't know the issue | 18:41 |
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| breton | err | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | and blame something else when they are slow due to eventlet + memcache thread.local | 18:41 |
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| breton | turn on memcache_pool -> ksm doesn't work | 18:41 |
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| morganfainberg | breton: since no one realizes the source of the problem, they don't look at the solution | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | breton: and therefore no one uses it | 18:41 |
| ayoung | kill it | 18:42 |
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| morganfainberg | anyway moving on | 18:42 |
| breton | morganfainberg: oh, ok. | 18:42 |
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| morganfainberg | propose a drop of the pool from KSM | 18:42 |
| bknudson | if people are willing to maintain it then let's keep it | 18:42 |
| bknudson | if the only problem is a couple of ,s that should be a reason to drop it | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | we can reachout to the ML for support/users before we approve the drop | 18:42 |
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| samueldmq | morganfainberg, + | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: bit rotting code with no eyes and no support isn't worth carrying | 18:43 |
| bknudson | I agree | 18:43 |
| ayoung | 17 minutes left | 18:43 |
| Chenhong | ++ | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: so lets reach out to the MLs | 18:43 |
| breton | yep, lets move on | 18:43 |
| dstanek | if this the exact same code that's in keystone? | 18:43 |
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| breton | dstanek: no | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: sortofish | 18:43 |
| ayoung | next topic is mine, not bretons | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | anyway.. next | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Dynamic Policy Update | 18:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Dynamic Policy Update (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:43 | |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: o/ | 18:43 |
| ayoung | OK...so...mega load of specs and a few code changes, too | 18:43 |
| ayoung | using trello to monitor: | 18:44 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung: and subteam meeting wouldn't be a bad idea | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | you could pull in outside of keystone resources as needed that way | 18:44 |
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| ayoung | is anyone besides me , david8hu and samueldmq going to actually be working on this? | 18:44 |
| geoffarnold_ | +1 | 18:44 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, I was going to ask if a subteam meeting was required here. | 18:44 |
| david8hu | ayoung, yes I am. | 18:44 |
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| morganfainberg | not required | 18:44 |
| gyee | ayoung, I have a ksm patch to enforce something | 18:44 |
| davechen | ayoung: +1 | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | might be worth while. | 18:44 |
| gyee | ayoung, yeh, endpoint constraints | 18:45 |
| david8hu | ayoung, maybe just 3 of us? :) | 18:45 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung: i'd reach out on the ML see if anyone else is joining in | 18:45 |
| samueldmq | gyee, need to talk to you about that post-meeting .. (endpoint binding) | 18:45 |
| geoffarnold_ | as long as we can all track the Trello | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | if no one else is, 3 people hardly justifies a subteam meeting | 18:45 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg, ++ so we can get people from other porjetcs | 18:45 |
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| samueldmq | morganfainberg, nova guys look to be interested | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | samueldmq: yeah. | 18:45 |
| ayoung | there is a new card on trello for setup subteam meeting. Provide input on that card for when | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | #action ayoung to look into subteam meeting for policy | 18:46 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, one thing that is importnatn it the policy DB | 18:46 |
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| morganfainberg | #link https://trello.com/b/260v4Gs7/dynamic-policy | 18:46 |
| ayoung | we've nicknamed it Papai | 18:46 |
| marekd | Ioram's work? | 18:46 |
| ayoung | PAP==Policy Administration Point | 18:46 |
| samueldmq | ayoung, o/ | 18:46 |
| ayoung | marekd, yes | 18:46 |
| gyee | Papai the Sailor man? | 18:46 |
| ayoung | there are some disconnects between their approach and how Keystone names things, but I think they are managemeable | 18:46 |
| ayoung | need to figure out how to sync between the two, though | 18:47 |
| samueldmq | gyee, haah | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | we need to keep moving | 18:47 |
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| ayoung | so, for example, if we do hierarchical roles, how do we make a change in Keystone, that shows up in Papai, and then get the resulting policy distributed out of Keystone...or do we make PAPAI a separate service in the SC? | 18:47 |
| samueldmq | ayoung, yeah we need to decide whether we need a generic policy storage or not, we can revisit that later | 18:48 |
| marekd | ayoung: pub-sub like service? | 18:48 |
| ayoung | so the big question for Keystone team is are we willing to accept Papai as a separate server under our umbrellla | 18:48 |
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| samueldmq | ayoung, I think keystone should own the database, as it offers the api | 18:48 |
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| ayoung | samueldmq, I don't think we can avoid answering that too long | 18:48 |
| bknudson | according to the big tent model the question should be is papai willing to work as an openstack project | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: ++ | 18:49 |
| ayoung | Once they get the code posted, I'll set up a public demo so we can beat on it, and see what the delat is between what they've exposed and what we need from Keystone | 18:49 |
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| ayoung | bknudson, they have already said that they are | 18:49 |
| bknudson | then I assume the tc will accept it as an openstack project | 18:50 |
| ayoung | the real question is does it make sense to keep it separate. I am leaning toward yes | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | then i don't think it's a question of it being Keystone or not Keystone, i think it's a question of it being OpenStack and something Keystone can use | 18:50 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, it would be under our team's program, though | 18:50 |
| samueldmq | I still thing that should be a keystone thing | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: there are no programs | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | :P | 18:50 |
| ayoung | essentially, I could see it as a split out of the policy service from the rest of Keystone | 18:50 |
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| ayoung | right now, the KC code looks for that in the identity service_type | 18:51 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung: this is a bigger conversation than we can have right now | 18:51 |
| ayoung | Whatever | 18:51 |
| morganfainberg | lets take this to -keystone and specs | 18:51 |
| morganfainberg | after the meeting | 18:51 |
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| lbragstad | ~ 9 minutes left | 18:51 |
| gyee | watch out them congress people | 18:51 |
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| bknudson | maybe we need a parallel to the bug tent guidelines, which is what makes a keystone project | 18:51 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson: ++ | 18:51 |
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| bknudson | big tent, not bug tent | 18:51 |
| samueldmq | hehe | 18:52 |
| ayoung | bknudson, Keystone is already a Bug Tent | 18:52 |
| gyee | bknudson, lmao | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: mind taking a crack at a starting place for that with papai in mind? | 18:52 |
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| morganfainberg | not saying it should be under keystone or not, just that it is where we start evaluating | 18:52 |
| bknudson | I could look into it. | 18:52 |
| ayoung | I'll set up a subteam meeting, then | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: thanks | 18:52 |
| ayoung | and we can discuss that | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | ok next topic | 18:52 |
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| morganfainberg | #topic Project scoped token by name in Reseller | 18:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Project scoped token by name in Reseller (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:52 | |
| ayoung | floor is yours | 18:52 |
| htruta | ok, so... in reseller, we need to know how to get a project scoped token by name | 18:53 |
| ayoung | domain + name | 18:53 |
| htruta | we may have A being an is_domain project, with a project hierarchy B -> C -> A, which means that requesting a project scoped token to A, we don't know which A project we're talking about | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: ++ | 18:53 |
| ayoung | and...we need to make hierarchical naming work | 18:53 |
| ayoung | so it is more than a 2 level hierarchy | 18:53 |
| ayoung | domain should be the "local root" | 18:53 |
| htruta | I've sent an email with two proposals and was hoping we could have more time to discuss it here :/ | 18:53 |
| ayoung | but if we had dom1.p1.p2 versus dom1.p3.p2 we should be able to have both | 18:54 |
| morganfainberg | you need to use the namespace like you do today | 18:54 |
| morganfainberg | in HMT the namespace is the hierarchy though | 18:54 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, would it be a UX issue if we have a deep tree? | 18:54 |
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| morganfainberg | gyee: not much way around it | 18:54 |
| htruta | ayoung: the issue is if we wanted to have a non-domain project called dom1 | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | heirarchical things cause UX headaches | 18:55 |
| henrynash | htruta: so what was wrong in inclueing the the “is_domain” flag as part of the token rquest? | 18:55 |
| davechen | ayoung: seem like parts of spec of dynamic policy is still WIP. we need figure out some solution for bunches of comments in those spec,then we can start coding process. | 18:55 |
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| samueldmq | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | htruta: you use dom1.<project named dom1> | 18:55 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg, experienced myself in horizon | 18:55 |
| htruta | henrynash: I don't remember why, but morganfainberg said we could not do that | 18:55 |
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| morganfainberg | you don't get to say "i want a domain scoped token for dom x" because domains are also heirarchical | 18:56 |
| htruta | morganfainberg: can we have "." in project names? | 18:56 |
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| morganfainberg | htruta: we need to solve the reserved character issue | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | for delimiters | 18:56 |
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| morganfainberg | unfortunately we don't have time today | 18:56 |
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| htruta | morganfainberg: ok. | 18:56 |
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| morganfainberg | we have allowed all characters so we have effectively caused ourselves a headache | 18:56 |
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| htruta | I was not considering this delimiter point | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | lets solve the delimiter issue for the heirarcy | 18:57 |
| geoffarnold_ | hurts how about a wiki page on this topic? | 18:57 |
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| geoffarnold_ | htruta | 18:57 |
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| morganfainberg | then the answer for this becomes easy | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | maybe the heirarchy is always a list. | 18:57 |
| geoffarnold_ | (spelling correction!) | 18:57 |
| htruta | morganfainberg: cool. so, you could answer my email in openstack-dev ML? | 18:57 |
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| morganfainberg | sure. | 18:57 |
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| morganfainberg | will response | 18:57 |
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| morganfainberg | last topic | 18:57 |
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| morganfainberg | will make this fast | 18:57 |
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| htruta | ok | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Shall we pull Federation Mapping Engine out of Keystone and make it separate library? | 18:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Shall we pull Federation Mapping Engine out of Keystone and make it separate library? (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:57 | |
| henrynash | morgangainberg, htruta: not yet confinced that is_domain is not the answer….I think the only time you get multiple clashing names is between a projiect and it’s owning domain | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | marekd: stevemar: sorry for short window | 18:57 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash: i am very convinced that it is not the answer | 18:58 |
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| marekd | There was an idea do for pullling our Mappingengine into separate library | 18:58 |
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| gyee | oslo.mapping | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash: will explain later | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | post meeting | 18:58 |
| htruta | henrynash: we can talk in openstack-keystone later | 18:58 |
| bknudson | I haven't looked at it lately, is the mapping engine "API" clean? | 18:58 |
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| gyee | actually, works well with oslo.policy | 18:58 |
| gyee | they are sorta similar | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: i don't see how anyone but keystone is going to use the code | 18:58 |
| marekd | this could help us building a simple wrapper for testing mapping rules locally - you give mapping rules, input (credentials,) and see what it the output (user_id, group_ids). | 18:58 |
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| morganfainberg | i'm not seeing a benefit to it being split out *except* for a CLI tool to do a "validation" | 18:59 |
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| morganfainberg | which, i'm not convinced is a huge win (you could just install keystone) | 18:59 |
| dstanek | validation could be done via api it we were so inclined | 18:59 |
| marekd | we can either have a separate library, and the wrapper - easy to install, or make a CLI tool in the keystone: drawback, one would need to install whole keystone locally to check out the mapping rules. | 18:59 |
| morganfainberg | slash-use keystone | 18:59 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek: ++ | 18:59 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: i understand this. | 18:59 |
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| dstanek | marekd: what is the difference between installing keystone and the new tools? | 19:00 |
| dstanek | marekd: number of deps i mean | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | we're at time. we need to continue this in -keystone | 19:00 |
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| marekd | ok | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | sorry. | 19:00 |
| marekd | np | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 2 19:00:31 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-06-02-17.59.html | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | -infra, all yours | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-06-02-17.59.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-06-02-17.59.log.html | 19:00 |
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| jeblair | morganfainberg: thanks keystone! | 19:00 |
| fungi | heyhowdy! | 19:01 |
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| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 2 19:01:12 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-05-26-19.02.html | 19:01 |
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| pabelanger | o/ | 19:01 |
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| crinkle | o/ | 19:01 |
| nibalizer | o/ | 19:01 |
| krtaylor | o/ | 19:01 |
| ianw | o/ | 19:01 |
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| jhesketh | o/ | 19:01 |
| docaedo | o/ | 19:01 |
| AJaeger | +1 | 19:01 |
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| rbradfor | o/ | 19:01 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:01 |
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| jeblair | everybody gets a 'line said' in the meeting today! :) | 19:02 |
| anteaya | I find myself going to the meetings wikipage to get the history to find links to meeting agendas | 19:02 |
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| yolanda | o/ | 19:02 |
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| anteaya | just as a data point to file for later | 19:02 |
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| anteaya | jeblair: one for everybody | 19:02 |
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| pleia2 | o/ | 19:02 |
| asselin_ | o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #topic Announcements | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| mrmartin | o/ | 19:02 |
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| jhesketh | yep, job done, back to bed ;-) | 19:02 |
| anteaya | jhesketh: ha ha ha | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #link http://docs.openstack.org/infra/system-config/project.html#teams | 19:02 |
| jeblair | the process changes we talked about last week are in place, so this meeting structure has changed accordingly | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | we'll have a new section where we announce specs that are ready for the council to vote on | 19:03 |
| jeblair | also, to many of you, welcome to the infrastructure council! i'm not sure anyone but gerrit knows who you are :) | 19:03 |
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| fungi | i have scripts that know ;) | 19:03 |
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| * AJaeger would be suprised if fungi wouldn't have ;) | 19:03 | |
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| jeblair | any questions or comments on this? or shall we go try it out? | 19:04 |
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| fungi | let's get this party started | 19:04 |
| AJaeger | yes, let's give it a try... | 19:04 |
| pabelanger | trial by fire! | 19:04 |
| jhesketh | jeblair: might be we worth linking who is on the council if that's around somewhere? | 19:04 |
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| fungi | jhesketh: i'll get a link together in a bit. i think i can do it with a single gerrit api call | 19:05 |
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| jeblair | ooh, neat | 19:05 |
| jhesketh | shiny | 19:05 |
| jeblair | it's implemented as a gerrit group with about 100 member-groups (some of which have their own groups) | 19:05 |
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| AJaeger | jeblair: yeah https://review.openstack.org/#/admin/groups/925,members looks impressive | 19:05 |
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| jeblair | i had to write a script (which is in review; failing pep8 i think) to create it | 19:06 |
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| jeblair | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:06 | |
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| jeblair | mordred write a spec to move infra bugs to maniphest | 19:06 |
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| jeblair | mordred said he might not make the meeting today, but this is in progress | 19:06 |
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| jeblair | he did push up the shade spec which is great | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | hopefully that one will make the agenda next week | 19:07 |
| jeblair | #action mordred write a spec to move infra bugs to maniphest | 19:07 |
| jeblair | jeblair write infra-cloud spec with SpamapS | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | is done | 19:07 |
| jeblair | and there's one more action item we'll talk about later in the meeting | 19:07 |
| jeblair | #topic Specs approval | 19:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:07 | |
| jeblair | when specs are ready for final voting by the infra council, add them to the agenda in this section and we will announce them here | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | we can discuss them a little as needed, but mostly this is to serve as notice that people should vote on them | 19:08 |
| jeblair | i was thinking we would start with a ~48 hour voting period | 19:08 |
| jeblair | how does that sound? | 19:08 |
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| nibalizer | i like that | 19:08 |
| pleia2 | sounds good | 19:08 |
| anteaya | what are you looking for in terms of votes? | 19:08 |
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| anteaya | how many to move ahead? | 19:08 |
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| jeblair | anteaya: simple majority? | 19:09 |
| jeblair | and if we think it's not working out, we'll change it | 19:09 |
| anteaya | how big is the council? | 19:09 |
| jeblair | unknown :) | 19:09 |
| anteaya | is majority 51% or better | 19:09 |
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| jeblair | let's go with "more positive than negative votes" | 19:09 |
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| anteaya | so 2 positive and 1 negative is a merge? | 19:10 |
| anteaya | or mergable? | 19:10 |
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| jeblair | if that's all that can be bothered to vote within 48 hours, sure | 19:10 |
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| jhesketh | votes can be added before the 48 hours is open yeah? | 19:10 |
| jeblair | jhesketh: i don't see why not | 19:11 |
| anteaya | so window for voting set in the meeting, more positive than negative and the spec merges | 19:11 |
| nibalizer | jeblair: if someone wants to abstain from voting on a partictulr spec, how do you want them to do that, +0? | 19:11 |
| jhesketh | ie, we've reviewed it earlier or saw it was in the agenda ahead of time and added a vote | 19:11 |
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| anteaya | nibalizer: yes I 0 vote is abstain | 19:11 |
| anteaya | a 0 vote | 19:11 |
| pleia2 | yeah, it's noted in the interface | 19:11 |
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| pleia2 | webui anyway :) | 19:11 |
| nibalizer | cool | 19:12 |
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| jeblair | you can also leave a differing code-review vote. i'm not entirely sure what that means in all circumstances, but we might find it useful. you might -1 and +0 for some really good reason. | 19:12 |
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| jeblair | #topic Specs approval: Infra-cloud (jeblair, SpamapS) | 19:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: Infra-cloud (jeblair, SpamapS) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:13 | |
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| zaro | pleia2: does it really say '0 abstain'? | 19:13 |
| jeblair | #link infra cloud spec https://review.openstack.org/186960 | 19:13 |
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| pleia2 | zaro: yes | 19:13 |
| jeblair | #info voting on https://review.openstack.org/186960 open until 2015-06-04 19:00 UTC | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | we've talked about this for a while, and it's worth noting that the technical decisions will be made over in system-config, so be sure to participate there if you have opinions on openstack deployment choices | 19:14 |
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| mordred | o/ | 19:14 |
| jeblair | but this covers the process and overall effort | 19:14 |
| asselin_ | can we add this one too? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/135170/ | 19:14 |
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| jeblair | asselin_: let's do it next week | 19:15 |
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| AJaeger | asselin_: please add to the agenda for next week | 19:15 |
| asselin_ | will do, thanks | 19:15 |
| krtaylor | thanks asselin_ | 19:15 |
| jeblair | #topic Specs approval: Host OpenStack Apps Catalog Service (docaedo, fungi) | 19:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: Host OpenStack Apps Catalog Service (docaedo, fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:16 | |
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| jeblair | #link apps.o.o spec https://review.openstack.org/187646 | 19:16 |
| fungi | yep | 19:16 |
| jeblair | #link apps.o.o topic https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:apps-site,n,z | 19:16 |
| fungi | there's this apps site | 19:16 |
| fungi | and we should host it | 19:16 |
| * fungi wins at tl;dr | 19:16 | |
| * pleia2 nods | 19:16 | |
| jeblair | ayup | 19:17 |
| fungi | any... questions? | 19:17 |
| AJaeger | fungi: if the specs is as easy to understand, you have my +1 vote ;) | 19:17 |
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| jeblair | and i think this is already in progress | 19:17 |
| fungi | it is | 19:17 |
| fungi | the review topic already has associated changes awaiting review | 19:17 |
| jhesketh | noting that the spec was uploaded today, should there be a minimum review time before it is voted on? | 19:17 |
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| jhesketh | since it also (unless I missed it) wasn't in the agenda for very long as a heads up | 19:18 |
| fungi | perhaps, yes. i suggest a minimum review time of at least 0 seconds | 19:18 |
| fungi | we're not deciding on it in this meeting | 19:18 |
| fungi | just announcing that it's ready for review/council vote | 19:18 |
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| jeblair | yeah, i think we'll want to get to the point where things are on the agenda longer than "immediately before the meeting", but we're also sort of catching up current efforts to the new process | 19:19 |
| jhesketh | isn't announcing it is ready for vote putting it in a 48 hour window | 19:19 |
| jeblair | and in this case, i think with the summit discussion and key participants agreeing on the current spec, it's okay for this one | 19:19 |
| fungi | also it's sort of a rush job | 19:19 |
| jeblair | jhesketh: yes | 19:19 |
| jhesketh | yep, sure, I don't think this is an issue, just pointing out that if somebody were away for 2 days it'd be easy to miss a spec like this | 19:20 |
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| jeblair | yeah, we'll get better in the future; if there isn't an objection for this particular instance, i'd say we should go ahead with the vote | 19:20 |
| fungi | some decisions were made, for better or for worse, and this is a "bug" we need to correct as soon as possible, before it becomes a major pr issue | 19:20 |
| jhesketh | but that's not going to be common and objections can be given after it is merged | 19:20 |
| jeblair | well, ideally we'd get objections before it's merged | 19:21 |
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| jhesketh | I meant worst case | 19:22 |
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| jeblair | yeah, if something looks like it's going to go off the rails, let's bring it up in this meeting (we can choose to defer voting), or -1 council vote it with a suggestion for more revising, or infra-cores can veto it on that basis too, and we'll get the process back on track | 19:23 |
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| jeblair | the goal is to get all the participants on the same page, so we should work toward that :) | 19:24 |
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| jeblair | i'm glad i rushed something on the agenda, that's useful :) | 19:24 |
| jhesketh | sounds good :-) | 19:24 |
| jeblair | #info voting on https://review.openstack.org/187646 open until 2015-06-04 19:00 UTC | 19:24 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts | 19:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:24 | |
| jeblair | reminder that this section is by prior request on the agenda only, so i'll skip efforts that didn't have something in the agenda | 19:25 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Downstream Puppet) | 19:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Downstream Puppet) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:25 | |
| asselin_ | Hi, I would like to propose a virtual sprint | 19:25 |
| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/VirtualSprints#Schedule_of_Upcoming_OpenStack_Virtual_Sprints | 19:25 |
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| asselin_ | that was very effective last time, and I think the initiative would benefit from doing this | 19:26 |
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| asselin_ | I'd like to schedule this after L1 is done...so early L2 if there's enough people avaiable / not on vacation | 19:26 |
| fungi | asselin_: what goal do you have in mind for the common ci solution sprint? | 19:27 |
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| fungi | just work toward implementation of teh spec and any oassociated work items? | 19:27 |
| asselin_ | fungi, yes | 19:27 |
| yolanda | asselin, ++ | 19:27 |
| jeblair | maybe we could identify one or more modules to complete? possibly identify one that we might be able to move openstack-infra to using? | 19:27 |
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| jeblair | s/modules/classes/ you know what i mean... maybe 'compenents'. | 19:28 |
| asselin_ | I'd like to get nodepool, zuul, and jenkins done | 19:28 |
| nibalizer | ya moving -infra to consuming openstackci would be huge | 19:28 |
| anteaya | asselin_: setting priorties would help | 19:28 |
| fungi | i like having achievable or measurable goals for a sprint. if completion of the entire spec is doable within the sprint, then seems fine as a goal. otherwise would be great to see it scoped more clearly | 19:28 |
| asselin_ | the alternative is to keep doing as we are | 19:29 |
| nibalizer | I'm in for this, though i think the parallelism here is much lower than the modules split sprint | 19:29 |
| anteaya | asselin_: so folks can focus on one and then move to the next | 19:29 |
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| asselin_ | anteaya, that's another good approach. We can target e.g. 1 module per week and focus on that | 19:29 |
| anteaya | asselin_: sorry no I meant for the sprint | 19:30 |
| anteaya | I support the sprint | 19:30 |
| nibalizer | for i in ls system-config/modules/openstack_project/*; do (move stuff into either the correct module or to openstackci; move infra to consume that); done | 19:30 |
| anteaya | but people need you to make a decision, however arbitrary it may feel | 19:30 |
| anteaya | asselin_: so select a time and select 3 modules (you did already) and prioritize them | 19:31 |
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| anteaya | asselin_: then people can take action | 19:31 |
| anteaya | asselin_: until you make a decision, people will just keep giving you suggestions | 19:31 |
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| asselin_ | anteaya, I am asking for peoples opinions | 19:32 |
| nibalizer | sprinting is good i think | 19:32 |
| yolanda | asselin, i think that these modules are the ones that need attention | 19:32 |
| anteaya | asselin_: so far I'm hearing when you decide on dates for a sprint, people will show up | 19:32 |
| yolanda | i'm ok to have an sprint for that | 19:32 |
| nibalizer | a sprint like atmosphere is the best way to accomplish the 'pivot' needed to get infra using openstackci I think | 19:32 |
| pabelanger | I would think nodepool would be the first to break out of the list, limited dependencies | 19:32 |
| nibalizer | the slow way of doing that will take eons and introduce risk | 19:32 |
| asselin_ | ok, so yolanda and nibalizer are in for sprint. What about infra cores? | 19:32 |
| yolanda | pabelanger, i started work on nodepool | 19:32 |
| * zaro has no opinion just willing to help | 19:32 | |
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| yolanda | i'm trying to find gaps during the week to continue with that | 19:33 |
| anteaya | asselin_: I support the sprint, my attendance depends on dates selected, and don't optimize for me | 19:33 |
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| fungi | we have it designated as a priority effort, so i'm in favor of getting it done however we can to free up bandwidth for other priorities | 19:33 |
| jeblair | i'm happy to help | 19:33 |
| pleia2 | I can participate | 19:33 |
| asselin_ | fungi I think is in as long as there is clear measurable scope. We can do that. | 19:33 |
| pabelanger | yolanda, Ya, seen your review. Was going to comment on it about allow a template or content to just be passed, over individual elements. But, I'm not against what you started | 19:34 |
| nibalizer | our testing is still 'in progress' so we should make sure that we leave ample time between now and the date of the sprint to get our framework for pupept testing locked in | 19:34 |
| nibalizer | locked down? set up? established? | 19:34 |
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| jeblair | nibalizer: that will help tremendously | 19:34 |
| yolanda | pabelanger, i got some feedback from jeblair, asselin, so i'm going to refactor that a bit | 19:34 |
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| asselin_ | nibalizer, you think you can get that done by L1? | 19:34 |
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| asselin_ | Libery schedule is her: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Liberty_Release_Schedule | 19:35 |
| nibalizer | asselin_: i dont know when L1 is | 19:35 |
| asselin_ | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Liberty_Release_Schedule | 19:35 |
| jeblair | (i don't normally thing much about milestone dates, they don't really affect us too much) | 19:35 |
| asselin_ | June 25th | 19:35 |
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| yolanda | i'm on holiday since 29th june, i hope it's scheduled before that... | 19:36 |
| asselin_ | jeblair, I'm avoiding the sprint bfore L1 b/c I assume many people are busy then | 19:36 |
| crinkle | is puppet functional testing included as part of downstream-puppet? clarkb's spec doesn't have a decision yet so I don't know if it's appropriate to try to lock down testing https://review.openstack.org/#/c/178887 | 19:36 |
| nibalizer | crinkle: thats fair... | 19:36 |
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| fungi | milestone dates are only a concern insofar as if they indicate a huge uptick in dev activity for openstack projects on the whole then we want to strive to keep things more stable during those windowsa | 19:36 |
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| asselin_ | fungi, +1 | 19:37 |
| nibalizer | clarks spec was sortof subsumed by the discussion at the design summit, as i understand it | 19:37 |
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| nibalizer | so we didn't resolve or land clarks spec, but we did make a decision on a path forward | 19:37 |
| asselin_ | ihmo we can do this in parallel | 19:37 |
| jeblair | i think we decided to head towards beaker-rspec, we should update clark's spec to reflect that | 19:37 |
| nibalizer | then when we sprinted at the summit we (or I and some others) focused on testing using teh decision we made | 19:37 |
| crinkle | jeblair: ++ | 19:38 |
| nibalizer | cool | 19:38 |
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| asselin_ | so how about June 29 and 30? | 19:38 |
| nibalizer | but I do think we can get beaker-rspec in place before the 'late june' sprint that asselin_ is suggesting | 19:38 |
| jeblair | tuesdays are bad for me :) | 19:39 |
| pabelanger | asselin, Close to Canada and USA holidays | 19:39 |
| nibalizer | i also think testing is one of the ways virtual sprints prevent us from hurting ourselves | 19:39 |
| pabelanger | Canada day is July 1st | 19:39 |
| yolanda | 29 and 30 don't work for me, but i'll leave my work prepared for you to take it | 19:39 |
| fungi | i'm closing on a house on june 30 so will likely not be around for that timeframe, but don't plan around me | 19:39 |
| asselin_ | ok July 8 & 9? | 19:39 |
| yolanda | ++ | 19:39 |
| jeblair | wfm | 19:39 |
| nibalizer | wfm | 19:39 |
| pabelanger | ya, better here | 19:39 |
| asselin_ | I will create a vote in the etherpad and send to the e-mail list. | 19:39 |
| fungi | i can probably do july 8-9, yes | 19:39 |
| pleia2 | I might be out of town then, but I have to confirm | 19:39 |
| anteaya | asselin_: I also may be out of town | 19:40 |
| anteaya | but july 8 and 9 seem to be popular with others | 19:40 |
| zaro | wfm | 19:40 |
| jeblair | #action asselin_ propose july 8,9 for openstackci sprint to mailing list | 19:40 |
| zaro | reminder would be excellent | 19:40 |
| asselin_ | ok thanks | 19:40 |
| jeblair | asselin_: cool, thanks | 19:40 |
| asselin_ | zaro, will do. thanks | 19:40 |
| jeblair | anything else? | 19:41 |
| asselin_ | that's it | 19:41 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Upgrading Gerrit) | 19:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Upgrading Gerrit) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:41 | |
| zaro | https://gerrit-review.googlesource.com/#/c/68149/ | 19:41 |
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| zaro | i tested the proposed fix, but it didn't fix. | 19:41 |
| pleia2 | :\ | 19:41 |
| jeblair | zaro: uh oh | 19:42 |
| anteaya | did you post your results to anywhere google can read? | 19:42 |
| fungi | he commented on the review | 19:42 |
| zaro | yes, on mailing list + on the review | 19:42 |
| fungi | #link https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/repo-discuss/ZeGWPyyJlrM/mQsZIsy2740J | 19:43 |
| zaro | not sure what to do besides wait for real jgit fix. other option is to increase timeout like the sony guys did | 19:43 |
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| jeblair | what did they set their timeout to? | 19:44 |
| zaro | not sure, but can ask sven. | 19:44 |
| zaro | he said he increased in the mailing list and that made error go away. i will ask him | 19:44 |
| jeblair | i'm a little concerned about that, because occasionally we have some _really huge_ changes; we either set ourselves up to a dos by letting gerrit perform all that computation, or a dos by killing repositories | 19:45 |
| jeblair | on the plus side, it's really cool this is possible to test now :) | 19:45 |
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| zaro | yeah, not ideal but i think that's what sony is doing now | 19:46 |
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| zaro | just an option wanted to throw out. | 19:46 |
| jeblair | zaro: can you keep testing their proposed fixes | 19:46 |
| jeblair | and let's see if they can resolve this soon-ish | 19:46 |
| zaro | yes, i plan to. | 19:46 |
| anteaya | is moving to 2.9 an option? | 19:46 |
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| jeblair | and if they give up, we'll work something else out :) | 19:47 |
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| jeblair | anteaya: i don't feel like we're under significant pressure to upgrade to 2.9 | 19:47 |
| anteaya | okay | 19:47 |
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| anteaya | I would like close connection | 19:47 |
| anteaya | which works with 2.9 but not 2.8 | 19:48 |
| anteaya | but that's just me | 19:48 |
| anteaya | 2.9+ | 19:48 |
| jeblair | anything else? | 19:48 |
| zaro | i'm not sure that's true, i think i had to add it to our 2.10 branch | 19:48 |
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| zaro | anteaya: ^ | 19:49 |
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| zaro | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/gerrit/commit/?h=openstack/2.10.2&id=5b6d0cd846ed2389584a0559866aeff3c1fff20a | 19:49 |
| anteaya | close connection works with 2.9+, it is a feature in 2.11 but you backported successfully to 2.10 and 2.9 | 19:49 |
| zaro | which means it's only in 2.11 | 19:49 |
| anteaya | it doesn't work with 2.8 | 19:49 |
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| anteaya | at least that is what I recall you told me | 19:49 |
| zaro | ohh, i see what you mean | 19:49 |
| zaro | nothing else from me on this topic | 19:50 |
| anteaya | so staying on 2.8 means no close connection feature, which I would like | 19:50 |
| jeblair | okay, let's see where the gerrit folks get to on this | 19:50 |
| anteaya | I'm done too | 19:50 |
| jeblair | #topic puppet-stackalytics (pabelanger) | 19:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "puppet-stackalytics (pabelanger) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:50 | |
| pabelanger | ohai | 19:50 |
| nibalizer | hello | 19:50 |
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| nibalizer | we cooking this up again, then? | 19:50 |
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| pabelanger | So, mostly helping mordred with the effort to get stackalytics under infra. | 19:51 |
| pabelanger | jeblair asked to get a spec up, so I did that today: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/187715/ | 19:51 |
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| jeblair | we had a nice work session at the summit where a lot of folks generally thought that stackalytics was the way to go | 19:51 |
| jeblair | pabelanger: oh cool, that was fast :) | 19:51 |
| mrmartin | so it means we will drop activity.o.o ? | 19:51 |
| pabelanger | I also have a base puppet-stackalytics modules already created and ready for governance. https://review.openstack.org/#/c/187645/ and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/187269/ | 19:51 |
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| fungi | the direction forward we determined from the infra analytics tools discussion at the summit was to try and get stackalytics hosted/managed within the openstack community and supplement it with anything we were originally relying on other analytics tools for | 19:52 |
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| fungi | so that includes probably activity.o.o reports, things ptls want from reviewstats, et cetera | 19:53 |
| jeblair | mrmartin: i don't think reed has plans to do that any time soon, it has a lot of things he still needs | 19:53 |
| mrmartin | ok. | 19:53 |
| nibalizer | cool | 19:53 |
| pabelanger | I'm not sure who at mirantis to talk to about the move, I know mordred knows some peeps. But would be good to get them involved with the spec if possible | 19:53 |
| jeblair | pabelanger: SergeyLukjanov and docaedo offered to help on that front | 19:53 |
| fungi | SergeyLukjanov volunteered to assist' | 19:53 |
| fungi | er, that | 19:53 |
| pabelanger | roger | 19:53 |
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| pabelanger | Ya, so once the puppet-stackalytics is created, I'll port over the work mordred did a few months ago and polish it up | 19:54 |
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| pabelanger | Should be a straightforward move | 19:54 |
| jeblair | cool, so people should go review that spec, and we'll certainly want some mirantis folks signing off on that too | 19:54 |
| jeblair | pabelanger: sounds good | 19:54 |
| jeblair | reed: ^ you'll probably want to look at that | 19:55 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/187715/ | 19:55 |
| jeblair | anything else on this? | 19:55 |
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| pabelanger | nothing from me | 19:55 |
| jeblair | #topic Schedule next project renames | 19:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Schedule next project renames (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:55 | |
| docaedo | please add me as a reviewer for the stackalytics stuff :) | 19:55 |
| jeblair | (technically not on agenda) | 19:55 |
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| jeblair | but we have a boatload of these | 19:56 |
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| jeblair | many of which actually have changes ready now | 19:56 |
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| jeblair | did we decide on an interval for this? like once every N- weeks/months? | 19:56 |
| fungi | not that i recall | 19:56 |
| nibalizer | I also heard chatter about an ansible playbook to streamline it | 19:56 |
| anteaya | I didn't know we were trying to decide on an interval | 19:56 |
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| jeblair | okay, we might want to at some point... | 19:57 |
| jeblair | anyone seen the playbook? | 19:57 |
| fungi | yeah, mordred wanted to test-drive his rename playbook this time | 19:57 |
| anteaya | where does it live? | 19:57 |
| jeblair | anteaya: that's the question :) | 19:57 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/105057 | 19:58 |
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| fungi | i think | 19:58 |
| pabelanger | fungi, yes | 19:58 |
| jeblair | we should probably go ahead and schedule, and if the playbook shows up, cool | 19:58 |
| anteaya | 3 -1's | 19:58 |
| anteaya | jeblair: yeah I agree with that | 19:58 |
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| jeblair | this friday? next friday? | 19:58 |
| anteaya | either is fine with me | 19:59 |
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| anteaya | we have quite a load do we want to split them up? | 19:59 |
| jeblair | anteaya: they won't take much longer | 19:59 |
| anteaya | okay | 19:59 |
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| jeblair | anteaya: it's easier on us to have bigger batches | 19:59 |
| anteaya | ah okay then I'm for next friday then | 19:59 |
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| fungi | agreed, big batches are fine | 20:00 |
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| anteaya | to ensure all the patches are ready | 20:00 |
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| jeblair | deferred until next meeting then | 20:00 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 2 20:00:34 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| fungi | i'm cool with this friday if it's early in the day, but have a social obligation later in my evening (~2100 utc i'll be spoken for | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-02-19.01.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-02-19.01.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-02-19.01.log.html | 20:00 |
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| ttx | Alright... Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:00 |
| jeblair | o/ | 20:00 |
| annegent_ | here | 20:00 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 20:00 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:01 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | russellb, jgriffith, lifeless, mordred, dtroyer, jaypipes, dhellmann: around ? | 20:01 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:01 |
| jaypipes | o/ | 20:01 |
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| russellb | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | I think mordred is on a plane | 20:01 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 2 20:01:38 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:01 |
| lifeless | ttx: \o/ | 20:01 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:01 |
| sdague | ttx: that's usually a reasonable guess | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:01 |
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| edleafe | o/ | 20:01 |
| * dims_ peeks | 20:01 | |
| mordred | taking off as we speak | 20:01 |
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| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:02 |
| dtroyer | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:02 |
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| ttx | #topic Add tc-approved-release tag for trademarkable projects | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add tc-approved-release tag for trademarkable projects (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/182474 | 20:02 |
| ttx | We now have enough Yays to approve this one | 20:02 |
| ttx | Any last-minute comment/vote ? | 20:02 |
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| * devananda lurks | 20:03 | |
| ttx | Taking that as a no.. and approving | 20:03 |
| * morganfainberg is double secret lurking. | 20:03 | |
| russellb | yay, glad that's sorted | 20:03 |
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| flaper87 | indeed | 20:03 |
| * Rockyg shadows devananda | 20:03 | |
| ttx | I'll be able to deprecate the "integrated-release" one now | 20:03 |
| russellb | yeah | 20:04 |
| ttx | #topic I18n team want to become an OpenStack Project Team | 20:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "I18n team want to become an OpenStack Project Team (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:04 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/184920 | 20:04 |
| ttx | This one should also be relatively painless | 20:04 |
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| annegent_ | whoohoo i18n! | 20:04 |
| * flaper87 does the i18n dance | 20:04 | |
| ttx | with the recent revotes we are above the required line | 20:04 |
| * dhellmann was surprised they weren't already an official team of some sort | 20:04 | |
| russellb | and somehow this got on the board agenda for the next board meeting | 20:04 |
| dhellmann | really? | 20:04 |
| sdague | russellb: .... i18n? | 20:05 |
| russellb | atc status for their contributions | 20:05 |
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| russellb | ... i have no idea ... | 20:05 |
| ttx | I'll give everyone a few more seconds to reapply previous votes if they want their vote properly recorded | 20:05 |
| russellb | but anyway, glad it's just sorted and i can report that. | 20:05 |
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| ttx | so.. 30 seconds to ignition | 20:05 |
| annegent_ | ttx: let me vote, on slooooowwwww internet | 20:05 |
| * annegent_ says please | 20:05 | |
| annegent_ | ok | 20:05 |
| ttx | you should upgrade for a european internet | 20:05 |
| sdague | oh, gotcha. Yeh, we probably want to figure out a tool that can count the contributions into the i18n tooling for atc instead of having to extra-atc them all | 20:05 |
| jeblair | (also, when we move to zanata, hopefully around end of this cycle, that will be more automatable) | 20:06 |
| dhellmann | russellb: it would be good to have some documentation about how atc status will be granted to that team, yes | 20:06 |
| ttx | alright, approving now | 20:06 |
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| AJaeger | dhellmann: once we moved from transifex to zanata, this should be easier to do... | 20:07 |
| ttx | did I mention I like the new vote-biut-let-everyone-express-opinion system ? | 20:07 |
| * flaper87 loves it too | 20:07 | |
| russellb | +1 | 20:07 |
| flaper87 | it's definitely clearer now | 20:07 |
| annegent_ | ttx: you didn't but yes I like it too! Thanks infra maintainers! | 20:07 |
| russellb | i wanted to ask what convention we should use with code review and tc vote | 20:07 |
| jeblair | w00t | 20:07 |
| russellb | i've just used both, because why not | 20:07 |
| flaper87 | russellb: lol, same here | 20:07 |
| krotscheck | o/ | 20:07 |
| ttx | #topic Add compute kernel tag | 20:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add compute kernel tag (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:07 | |
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| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/180112 | 20:08 |
| markmcclain | I went belt and suspenders and checked both | 20:08 |
| ttx | This one is likely to be a longer discussion, so let's timebox it to 20:35 UTC | 20:08 |
| ttx | Lively discussion on that review -- Most opposition to the tag is about it being useless, with some insisting it may be harmful | 20:08 |
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| ttx | I'm still in favor of it -- The alternative being to let various documentation, websites and presentations present their own version of a "starting point" | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | now that the ops team has created a repo to define their own tags, I think we should let them own this one | 20:08 |
| ttx | and I think that would end up a lot more confusing to our new users than a clear answer | 20:08 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: have a link to that? | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/stackforge/ops-tags-team/ | 20:08 |
| ttx | so I see some benefits and I don't see that many drawbacks | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | I did leave that in a comment on this review | 20:08 |
| sdague | so, I tried to summarize my point of view there about this being useful from a "start here" point earlier today | 20:09 |
| zaneb | ttx: I'm not convinced the tags website is going to be the first place new users look | 20:09 |
| sdague | dhellmann: yeh, I just read your comment there | 20:09 |
| annegent_ | dhellmann: I'm fine with that, want to hear from jaypipes as well | 20:09 |
| annegent_ | ttx: yeah that happens already :) | 20:09 |
| flaper87 | I'm really failing to see how that tag will be useful. | 20:09 |
| ttx | zaneb: I'm convinced they wiull look into openstack.org/software first | 20:09 |
| russellb | i don't expect the tags website to be the first place people look either | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | I remain convinced that we need some product documentation, that this should be part of it, and that neither has anything to do with project governance. | 20:09 |
| ttx | zaneb: and that will exhibit tags in the near future | 20:09 |
| russellb | but i think it's useful for the TC to make some opinionated calls to say "yes, this is the official starting point" and expecting docs to follow that | 20:09 |
| flaper87 | If anything, it'll invite users to go and read tags instead of docs | 20:09 |
| flaper87 | which is something we've put lots of efforts on | 20:09 |
| lifeless | zaneb: nice near-rant :) | 20:10 |
| zaneb | dhellmann++ | 20:10 |
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| ttx | russellb: yes, I like the idea of expressing that | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: ++ exactly my thoughts | 20:10 |
| jaypipes | I think dhellmann summed up my thoughts very well there. | 20:10 |
| sdague | right, so basically either the TC takes a stand on "start here" or we cede that to others and decide | 20:10 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I fear that we'll dilute the message | 20:11 |
| jaypipes | sdague: I think we cede that to others and encourage documentation for that specific purpose. | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I trust our documentation team to get this right. | 20:11 |
| zaneb | lifeless: I consider it a kind of success that you only described it as a 'near'-rant :) | 20:11 |
| flaper87 | jaypipes: ++ | 20:11 |
| annegent_ | any reasoning against a proposal like http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-operators/2015-May/006886.html | 20:11 |
| ttx | dhellmann: and our marketing team for the website ? | 20:11 |
| lifeless | zaneb: it was assertive but not angry. Thus not a rant. | 20:11 |
| annegent_ | I ask as docs person and tc person | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I would expect them to consult the documentation, no? | 20:11 |
| annegent_ | and of course docs are the hardest part of this :) | 20:12 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I wouldn't bet any money on that | 20:12 |
| flaper87 | ttx: but we should encourage that behavior | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | ttx: you have more experience with them than I do, so maybe I'm overly optimistic | 20:12 |
| sdague | dhellmann: and when there then becomes a fight with the docs team because there are different opinions on "start here"? | 20:12 |
| flaper87 | instead of encouraging users to read tags | 20:12 |
| jaypipes | annegent_: I'm embarrassed to say I had not seen that post yet. :( | 20:12 |
| ttx | dhellmann: at least by making them piggy-back on the tags (which the website will exhibit anyway) we could make sure the message would be clear | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | sdague: the docs team can have more than one "start here" for different purposes, can't they? | 20:12 |
| annegent_ | so much of OpenStack becomes word-of-mouth it seems. More objective measures are welcome, from any one. | 20:12 |
| annegent_ | jaypipes: ah it happens :) | 20:12 |
| annegent_ | sdague: we are already dealing with that with debian install guide | 20:13 |
| annegent_ | which doesn't package nova-network | 20:13 |
| sdague | dhellmann: sure, which works fine for someone that already knows openstack | 20:13 |
| annegent_ | so... | 20:13 |
| lifeless | zaneb: so, at the risk of repeating stuff; what are your proposed alternative solutions that you reference in the review ? | 20:13 |
| annegent_ | I was in the Ops tags session at the summit, and I think it's good to get multiple viewpoitns | 20:13 |
| annegent_ | I'd also like us to consider the bitergia offer | 20:13 |
| zaneb | lifeless: read a couple of comments back | 20:13 |
| * flaper87 needs to read bitergia's email | 20:14 | |
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| dhellmann | sdague: I think it can be clearly explained how to install different projects for different goals without the governing body trying to pick one true way to do an installation. | 20:14 |
| sdague | I still firmly think that OpenStack as a community is better served by a single door that's easy to draw people in, and then expand into the rest of the OpenStack universe | 20:14 |
| zaneb | lifeless: but basically, more user survey data; case studies on SuperUser | 20:14 |
| ttx | sdague: ++ | 20:14 |
| dtroyer | sdague: ++ | 20:14 |
| annegent_ | and even for the docs writers, of which there are a handful, we have to still figure out what to write/include through consultation and word-of-mouth | 20:14 |
| flaper87 | sdague: but what if that door takes me where I don't want to go ? | 20:14 |
| jaypipes | sdague: I do as well. But I don't think a single tag like kernel:compute does that. | 20:14 |
| ttx | sdague: that is what the marketing teaml asked me, too | 20:14 |
| * annegent_ taps mic | 20:14 | |
| * dhellmann listens to annegent_ | 20:14 | |
| flaper87 | that's one of my main issues with the tag | 20:14 |
| sdague | flaper87: then don't go there | 20:14 |
| flaper87 | sdague: why isn't there a second door ? | 20:15 |
| sdague | the point is that anyone experienced enough to skip past it can | 20:15 |
| anteaya | sdague: ++ | 20:15 |
| zaneb | sdague: so why is no distro doing that? | 20:15 |
| lifeless | anteaya: SHOUT ? | 20:15 |
| lifeless | bah | 20:15 |
| lifeless | annegent_: SHOUT? | 20:15 |
| annegent_ | dhellmann: all we've come up with so far is: current install guide living in openstack-manuals, followed by a "gathered across repos" install guide | 20:15 |
| edleafe | dhellmann: if a part of OpenStack is optional, then isn't it not kernel by definition? | 20:15 |
| sdague | because if you have a building with 10 doors, people that have never been in before get confused and leave | 20:15 |
| annegent_ | it's my slowwwww internet | 20:15 |
| annegent_ | :) | 20:15 |
| ttx | flaper87: requiring newcomers to read a 50-page doc to determine where to start... | 20:15 |
| sdague | it's great for people that already know the building | 20:15 |
| ttx | At least before we were exposing them to the "nova/swift/neutron" trilogy | 20:16 |
| annegent_ | there are plenty of opinionated installers | 20:16 |
| flaper87 | ttx: can those docs be improved to have a "start here" section? | 20:16 |
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| lifeless | I'm now thoroughly confused | 20:16 |
| lifeless | here's my understanding | 20:16 |
| dhellmann | annegent_: I see quite a few people in this meeting who would like to provide much more detailed guidance on that issue. I just don't think that the governing body needs to be doing it, because this tag isn't going to be used to set any governance policies. | 20:16 |
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| annegent_ | flaper87: we do that already with three opinionated architectures | 20:16 |
| ttx | flaper87: if we can't give a "start here", how would the doc team be able to answer that concisely ? | 20:16 |
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| lifeless | the operators - folk who have already deployed - at the ops meetup, said they wanted a clear articulation of the onramp to becoming operators? | 20:16 |
| flaper87 | annegent_: ++ | 20:16 |
| lifeless | ^ is that a true statement ? | 20:16 |
| ttx | lifeless: yes | 20:17 |
| sdague | lifeless: yes, it was expressed in Philly that way | 20:17 |
| annegent_ | lifeless: yes | 20:17 |
| devananda | lifeless: yes | 20:17 |
| anteaya | so did the board at the board meeting | 20:17 |
| ttx | lifeless: it's basically the only tag we worked on so far that they feel has some value to them | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | ttx: because if the doc team does it, that doesn't reflect an opinion being expressed by the TC, and so it's less contentious -- the doc team isn't saying anything that could be construed as "your project is not important" which is the issue we keep having with this tag | 20:17 |
| flaper87 | lifeless: is that something ops-tags can help with ? | 20:17 |
| lifeless | ttx: but we're working on the tag because they said they need an onramp | 20:17 |
| annegent_ | dhellmann: right | 20:17 |
| lifeless | ttx: right? | 20:17 |
| dtroyer | dhellmann: one reason I think it needs to be about technical requirements and not subjective | 20:17 |
| ttx | lifeless: yes. They said the hardest thing was to get a clear, limited set of projects to consider when they first open the openstack door | 20:18 |
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| ttx | if it takes more than one minute to find out where to start, we fail | 20:18 |
| russellb | i don't see why this would be punted to ops, "here, try this" is something we owe them, not the other way | 20:18 |
| zaneb | lifeless: actually it was proposed several times already. The reason keeps changing, but that was the latest ;) | 20:18 |
| lifeless | ttx: So, *how* does the tag provide the onramp? It itself isn't prose, nor intrinsically discoverable, and like code comments could easily become skewed. | 20:18 |
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| russellb | the tag itself doesn't, it's an official designation that i would expect other things (docs, website, whatever) to be based on | 20:19 |
| dtroyer | lifeless: I see it more as an index than the actual map | 20:19 |
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| lifeless | where I'm going with this is - | 20:19 |
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| ttx | lifeless: it is intrinsically discoverable if the openstack.org/.software website is redesigned to exhibit it by default and let you navigate tags to discover other projects in the same interface | 20:19 |
| sdague | right, we can't get the information to flow out from "start here" until we actually decide what it is | 20:19 |
| lifeless | if we want to ensure that there *is* a minimal set of things; that is governance. | 20:19 |
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| fungi | "my manager told me that our company needs an openstack... what things do i need to install to not get fired?" | 20:19 |
| lifeless | E.g. saying to Nova - you must be deployable without cinder and without Neutron | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | russellb: I don't think the docs team needs us to hold their hand on this. Would we do anything like this for a nova spec? | 20:19 |
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| ttx | fungi: what minimal set of things | 20:20 |
| russellb | it's not hand holding | 20:20 |
| fungi | ttx: exactly | 20:20 |
| annegent_ | dhellmann: russellb: I think an official tag helps the docs team | 20:20 |
| russellb | it's clearly controversial, and we're the right group to make a call | 20:20 |
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| annegent_ | it provides focus and prioritization, is that wrong? | 20:20 |
| ttx | right, punting to someone else is not always the right answer | 20:20 |
| dtroyer | annegent_: not at all | 20:20 |
| ttx | annegent_: some people think focus is wrong, yes. | 20:20 |
| ttx | annegent_: I don't | 20:21 |
| sdague | right, it seems like not making a call because it's controversial just means we're setting up some other team to get everyone to hate them when they do the "wrong" thing as considered by some segment of the community | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | no, that's not what I'm saying | 20:21 |
| russellb | sdague: or just that it continues to be painfully confusing because no 2 sources agree | 20:21 |
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| dhellmann | it's controversial because there are many possible useful answers, and we're picking only one based on a limited view | 20:21 |
| annegent_ | ttx: heh | 20:21 |
| annegent_ | zaneb: is it the prioritization that's hurtful? | 20:21 |
| annegent_ | russellb: heh, might be that | 20:21 |
| sdague | I guess we should probably back off to two questions. #1 should the TC have an opinion on "start here" | 20:21 |
| sdague | #2 if so, what is it | 20:21 |
| ttx | #1 yes -- if we can't who else can. | 20:22 |
| zaneb | annegent_: kind of | 20:22 |
| russellb | on question #1, yes, i think that's a very useful technical community deliverable | 20:22 |
| lifeless | so there are two things I think; 1a) For Nova, how can we make sure there is a minimal set - that X and Y and Z don't creep in, and 1b) should we be saying that; and 2) Is nova the right/only project to be providing that guidance for, or are there many such projects? | 20:22 |
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| russellb | and also agree that no other group is better positioned to decide what that is | 20:22 |
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| dhellmann | I think it's pretty clear that a "start here" definition should include the fewest number of projects based on the use case of "how do I not get fired while testing openstack" but that may not actually be a useful starting point for someone else | 20:22 |
| ttx | who disagrees with #1 above | 20:22 |
| annegent_ | zaneb: ok, fair | 20:22 |
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| lifeless | so I think I'm agreeing with sdague here - framed slightly differently | 20:22 |
| annegent_ | dhellmann: I think that's why use cases are more helpful | 20:22 |
| annegent_ | and avoiding "kernel" nomenclature | 20:23 |
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| ttx | annegent_: seed ? | 20:23 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: that's fine, because it's not like we're going to go yell at people that start somewhere else, this is about "I don't know where to start" folks | 20:23 |
| dhellmann | annegent_: right, and that's why I think using words in prose instead of tags is the way to solve the original problem posed by the ops community | 20:23 |
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| russellb | and we may have a few starting points for clear use cases | 20:23 |
| russellb | that's fine with me | 20:23 |
| ttx | dummies-start-here | 20:23 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: / fungi: the issue I have with 'fired while testing openstack' is that that is so damn amorphous. We've opted out of being a product. | 20:23 |
| jaypipes | ttx: I hate to say it but I do not think the TC should have an opinion on "start here". | 20:23 |
| flaper87 | I'd agree with #1 if we also agree on adding other starting points | 20:23 |
| jaypipes | there, I said it. | 20:23 |
| russellb | but the compute (VM) focused one seems like the most obvious start | 20:23 |
| annegent_ | ttx: kernel has too much meaning in linux, gets confusing | 20:23 |
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| ttx | jaypipes: I know you don't, and I disagree with you on that | 20:24 |
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| lifeless | is it VM's? Is it Containers? Is it storage? | 20:24 |
| annegent_ | I don't think it's a start here though. I think it's use cases. "If this is your goal start here" | 20:24 |
| ttx | jaypipes: but that is fine. That's why we do vote | 20:24 |
| dtroyer | flaper87: the other obvious choices are single-sproject sets | 20:24 |
| zaneb | jaypipes++ | 20:24 |
| lifeless | annegent_: Yes! | 20:24 |
| sdague | lifeless: based on the user survey, yes, it clearly is | 20:24 |
| fungi | lifeless: i don't disagree. just trying to put myself in the place of the ops community members who have requested a grocery list of "what is an openstack" | 20:24 |
| devananda | jaypipes: the distro's wont have that opinion. service providers wont. woulud you advocate that no one fills that need, then? | 20:24 |
| ttx | jaypipes: if the TC can't have an opinion on that, I don't see who else can | 20:24 |
| sdague | that's where most people are starting | 20:24 |
| flaper87 | dtroyer: if we don't count keystone, many of them are single project sets. | 20:24 |
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| zaneb | annegent_: yes, that would be much more useful imho | 20:24 |
| russellb | ttx: ++ | 20:24 |
| lifeless | devananda: distros very much have opinions | 20:24 |
| devananda | ttx: exactly | 20:24 |
| jaypipes | devananda: the distros absolutely have that opinion. | 20:24 |
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| zaneb | ttx: distros | 20:25 |
| devananda | lifeless: oh yes, but not on where to start | 20:25 |
| lifeless | devananda: Ubuntu for instance has a very specific and particular process for moving something from 'its out there' to 'supported' | 20:25 |
| ttx | jaypipes, zaneb; and it's fine. Our start-here is pretty minimal | 20:25 |
| devananda | lifeless: supported by distro X is not the same as "start here" | 20:25 |
| devananda | not even remotely | 20:25 |
| lifeless | sure | 20:25 |
| sdague | http://superuser.openstack.org/articles/openstack-user-survey-insights-november-2014 - project usage | 20:25 |
| lifeless | there was a disconnect | 20:25 |
| markmcclain | so here's the thing.. defcore has essentially defined a starting point | 20:25 |
| ttx | timecheck - 10 min left | 20:25 |
| russellb | markmcclain: an absolutely bare minimum least common denominator starting point | 20:26 |
| lifeless | for now | 20:26 |
| russellb | we should *not* be using that as our standard, IMO | 20:26 |
| lifeless | defcore is set to grow though | 20:26 |
| sdague | markmcclain: they really haven't, they've taking capabilities | 20:26 |
| jaypipes | I guess I'm stumped by the singularity of the "start here" argument. Nobody I know asks "how do I start?". They instead ask "how do I accomplish X with a minimal set of things." | 20:26 |
| sdague | for instance, there is no networking specified | 20:26 |
| zaneb | russellb: I thought that's exactly what people were calling for here? | 20:26 |
| dhellmann | jaypipes: ++ | 20:26 |
| sdague | jaypipes: I guess we're talking to different people | 20:26 |
| flaper87 | jaypipes: exactly | 20:26 |
| zaneb | jaypipes++ | 20:27 |
| ttx | back to sdague's first question -- quick show of TC hands on question #1: should the TC have an opinion on "start here" | 20:27 |
| sdague | because I talk to a bunch of people that aren't doing OpenStack because there is no start here | 20:27 |
| russellb | let's please not confuse defcore with this | 20:27 |
| jaypipes | and that "how do I accomplish X with a minimal set of things" is best answered, IMHO, by documentation. | 20:27 |
| markmcclain | but I get the feeling that managers who ask folks to stand up "openstack" are going to think of the capabilities covered by defcore | 20:27 |
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| ttx | #1 -- yes, because if not us, who else can | 20:27 |
| russellb | ttx: #vote ? | 20:27 |
| lifeless | I think its reasonable and useful and can meet the operator needs to document 'this is the onramp for VM's in OpenStack today': Nova+X+Y etc | 20:27 |
| ttx | russellb: ok, ok | 20:27 |
| zaneb | sdague: are people who just want to get on the hype wagon for no reason our target audience? | 20:27 |
| ttx | #startvote should the TC have an opinion on "start here" ? yes, no, meh | 20:28 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: should the TC have an opinion on "start here" ? Valid vote options are yes, no, meh. | 20:28 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 20:28 |
| russellb | #vote yes | 20:28 |
| ttx | #vote yes | 20:28 |
| sdague | zaneb: no, they are smaller institutions like colleges | 20:28 |
| jaypipes | zaneb: that's not what sdague is saying, you know that. | 20:28 |
| lifeless | I think #1 is kindof misframed | 20:28 |
| sdague | #vote yes | 20:28 |
| lifeless | #vote no | 20:28 |
| flaper87 | #vote no | 20:28 |
| dtroyer | #vote yes | 20:28 |
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| markmcclain | #vote no | 20:28 |
| lifeless | I'd vote yes for a different #1 | 20:28 |
| ttx | lifeless: how would you better frame it ? | 20:28 |
| flaper87 | lifeless: same here | 20:28 |
| dhellmann | #vote no | 20:28 |
| jeblair | #vote yes | 20:28 |
| jaypipes | #vote no | 20:28 |
| annegent_ | I'd vote yes for "start here for this use case" | 20:28 |
| ttx | flaper87: same question | 20:28 |
| russellb | annegent_: that's my interpretation ... | 20:29 |
| annegent_ | russellb: ah ok | 20:29 |
| russellb | that's why it's called "compute" | 20:29 |
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| annegent_ | #vote yes | 20:29 |
| lifeless | ttx: 'should the TC have an opinion on start here for this use case today' | 20:29 |
| russellb | and not just "openstack" | 20:29 |
| jaypipes | I'd vote yes for "The TC members should absolutely contribute their opinions to documentation that details how to start accomplishing X use cases" | 20:29 |
| russellb | that's what the tag proposes! | 20:29 |
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| ttx | lifeless: that is what the question is. | 20:29 |
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| annegent_ | jaypipes: :) | 20:29 |
| flaper87 | russellb: is the idea to add more tags for other starting points ? | 20:29 |
| ttx | you can fix your vote :) | 20:29 |
| russellb | sure | 20:29 |
| ttx | #endvote | 20:30 |
| openstack | Voted on "should the TC have an opinion on "start here" ?" Results are | 20:30 |
| openstack | yes (6): annegent_, ttx, russellb, jeblair, sdague, dtroyer | 20:30 |
| russellb | this is the first one, for "compute" | 20:30 |
| openstack | no (5): lifeless, dhellmann, jaypipes, markmcclain, flaper87 | 20:30 |
| ttx | Let me reframe the question | 20:30 |
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| lifeless | ttx: two specific things there: binding it to use cases, and making clear its retrospective not prospective. | 20:30 |
| ttx | #startvote should the TC have an opinion on start here for this use case today? yes, no, meh | 20:30 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: should the TC have an opinion on start here for this use case today? Valid vote options are yes, no, meh. | 20:30 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 20:30 |
| russellb | #vote yes | 20:30 |
| ttx | #vote yes | 20:30 |
| lifeless | I think we *can* do a prospective one, but its a whole different discussion - and not what the operators asked for as I understand it | 20:30 |
| sdague | #vote yes | 20:30 |
| lifeless | #vote yes | 20:30 |
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| jeblair | #vote meh | 20:30 |
| jeblair | #vote yes | 20:30 |
| dtroyer | #vote yes | 20:30 |
| annegent_ | #vote yes | 20:30 |
| ttx | jeblair: :) | 20:30 |
| flaper87 | #vote yes | 20:31 |
| jeblair | (i just wanted to vote meh once in my life) | 20:31 |
| ttx | markmcclain, dhellmann, jaypipes ? | 20:31 |
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| dhellmann | I guess "meh" is abstain? | 20:31 |
| dhellmann | #vote meh | 20:31 |
| ttx | dhellmann: yes | 20:31 |
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| jaypipes | ttx: is this opinion == a tag? | 20:32 |
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| flaper87 | jaypipes: nope | 20:32 |
| flaper87 | that's a different vote | 20:32 |
| ttx | jaypipes: next question | 20:32 |
| jaypipes | #vote yes | 20:32 |
| ttx | markmcclain: ? | 20:32 |
| markmcclain | #vote meh | 20:33 |
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| ttx | #endvote | 20:33 |
| openstack | Voted on "should the TC have an opinion on start here for this use case today?" Results are | 20:33 |
| openstack | yes (9): annegent_, ttx, russellb, jaypipes, jeblair, sdague, lifeless, dtroyer, flaper87 | 20:33 |
| openstack | meh (2): dhellmann, markmcclain | 20:33 |
| ttx | #2 if so, what is it | 20:33 |
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| sdague | and, more importantly, how do we get to some rough agreement there | 20:34 |
| russellb | if the TC has an opinion, i'd like to see it documented in an official way | 20:34 |
| ttx | What are the options on the table for the TC to express that opinion | 20:34 |
| russellb | and not just "go participate in every possible place that the opinion may have an impact" | 20:34 |
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| dhellmann | I would like to see a list with more than one use case proposed. | 20:34 |
| ttx | Tags have been built for us to express that | 20:34 |
| sdague | yeh, I guess 2 is really 2 questions | 20:34 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: ++ | 20:34 |
| sdague | how do we express and opinion, and what is it | 20:34 |
| dtroyer | the tags were conceived as a reflection of project attributes, if the tags here simply state required relationships, I believe that's a start for what we are looking for | 20:34 |
| dtroyer | and build from there | 20:34 |
| russellb | looks like we're hitting our time box ... | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | dtroyer: that might also be a more constructive approach | 20:35 |
| ttx | So of those who voted yes -- how would you express that opinion ? | 20:35 |
| ttx | quick ;) | 20:35 |
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| jaypipes | tags were meant to be objective, not subjective. | 20:35 |
| dtroyer | ttx: ^^^ | 20:35 |
| ttx | - tags | 20:35 |
| Rockyg | so, it's not a compute kernel, you're really saying whaat's the minimum I need to stand up a compute cloud | 20:35 |
| annegent_ | I'd like the ops team and bitergia to tackle | 20:35 |
| russellb | i think a tag seems like a fine way to do it. | 20:35 |
| sdague | some other doc ? | 20:35 |
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| dtroyer | jaypipes: exactly. "nova reuiqres glance" is an objective statement | 20:35 |
| jaypipes | documentation can be opinionated and subjective, which is why I think it's good to have TC members submit their opinions to documentation. | 20:35 |
| zaneb | dtroyer: ++ | 20:36 |
| russellb | i also disagree that we have to be objective about everything | 20:36 |
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| ttx | jaypipes: "the minimal set of project s to deliver basic compute stuff" happens to be prettu objective | 20:36 |
| russellb | The TC feels a lot less useful to me if we're limited to only being objective | 20:36 |
| jeblair | tags | 20:36 |
| dtroyer | russellb: true, but we'll get somewhere faster if we start with that | 20:36 |
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| jaypipes | ttx: apparently that isn't so objective :) | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | russellb: ++ | 20:36 |
| ttx | and yes we are hitting the timebox | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | russellb: ++ | 20:36 |
| annegent_ | ttx: until mordred wanted DNS :) | 20:36 |
| zaneb | russellb: I actually agree with that fwiw | 20:36 |
| annegent_ | timebox! | 20:36 |
| ttx | sdague: any last-minute question to help you make progress ? | 20:36 |
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| jaypipes | don't take it personally? :) | 20:37 |
| sdague | honestly, I don't know | 20:37 |
| zaneb | russellb: but on technical questions, not political questions | 20:37 |
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| russellb | this is technical IMO | 20:37 |
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| zaneb | I respectfully disagree | 20:37 |
| ttx | zaneb: I fail to see how telling people which are the basic set of projects you need to run Nova is political | 20:37 |
| russellb | ok | 20:37 |
| russellb | this seems pretty basic | 20:38 |
| annegent_ | zaneb: yeah that's one part of your argument I don't get... yet. | 20:38 |
| ttx | ok, let's clariufy off-meeting | 20:38 |
| annegent_ | sounds good | 20:38 |
| ttx | #topic Adding distribution packaging to OpenStack | 20:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Adding distribution packaging to OpenStack (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:38 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/185187 | 20:38 |
| zaneb | ttx: that isn't the question though. as dtroyer pointed out, the answer there is completely objective | 20:38 |
| * russellb takes a deep breath | 20:38 | |
| ttx | This one sounds like a good idea, the opposition is mostly about how early it is | 20:38 |
| russellb | yeah, +1 to the idea | 20:38 |
| ttx | The team is just getting created, doesn't even have a PTL or a clear plan yet | 20:38 |
| * flaper87 sips his wine | 20:38 | |
| ttx | Personally I like to bless existing teams, not the idea of a team, maybe that's just me | 20:38 |
| russellb | personally would like it to be a little bit more baked of a proposal | 20:38 |
| * flaper87 likes the idea | 20:39 | |
| annegent_ | no suse? | 20:39 |
| russellb | this patch doesn't block getting work done | 20:39 |
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| ttx | i.e. "Are you OpenStack" rather than "Will you be OpenStack" | 20:39 |
| jaypipes | ttx: why don't we make the tags something like "depends-on:keystone" and "can-use:neutron" then, instead of the current situation which is everyone's opinion on what is "minimal" for a particular use case?' | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | I think it's great the patch is there and that some opinions where already laid out | 20:39 |
| russellb | no PTL, no clear idea of how the different distros will collaborate in a single team | 20:39 |
| lifeless | yah | 20:39 |
| lifeless | so there are two routes forward | 20:39 |
| sdague | so, I think the team thinks it is blocking getting a gerrit repo up | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | that'll help interested folks to get started | 20:39 |
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| ttx | russellb: well, some people said it would be great to let them create repos under openstack/ to avoid renaming | 20:39 |
| lifeless | build the team up more; stuff on stackforge; revisit later. | 20:39 |
| lifeless | or | 20:39 |
| lifeless | make this the debian-only-thingy team | 20:39 |
| jeblair | i think there's a third option | 20:40 |
| flaper87 | russellb: those are the reasons I proposed using stackforge | 20:40 |
| AJaeger | annegent_: my colleagues at SUSE are interested, not sure why they didn't mail ;( | 20:40 |
| ttx | I'm fine letting them create under openstack/* if that's all it takes | 20:40 |
| sdague | and if we can figure out how to get them a gerrit repo up, I think that would be good | 20:40 |
| jeblair | which is for the folks who are involved to continue working out a plan on the mailing list | 20:40 |
| annegent_ | AJaeger: ah ok | 20:40 |
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| dhellmann | jeblair: ++ | 20:40 |
| jeblair | and then approve them as an openstack project | 20:40 |
| russellb | jeblair: yeah, i didn't expect that to take long | 20:40 |
| russellb | that's my preference | 20:40 |
| lifeless | jeblair: I see that as basically route 1, but sure | 20:40 |
| flaper87 | jeblair: +1 | 20:40 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: are they blocked on having a git repo in the mean time? | 20:40 |
| sdague | because I'd hate to have another magnum stall where they effectively blocked moving forward for 4 months on a chicken vs. egg problem with getting a repo | 20:41 |
| dhellmann | or are we not even at a stage where they know what sort of repo(s) they want? | 20:41 |
| ttx | ok, so just WIP the proposal since it's at the very minimum 2 weeks too early | 20:41 |
| lifeless | jeblair: all I'm saying is that they can get stuff on stackforge anytime they need, they don't need to stall | 20:41 |
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| flaper87 | can they start somewhere else while the plan is sorted out? | 20:41 |
| russellb | it seriously should not take long to write a simple plan in text form | 20:41 |
| lifeless | renaming isn't that hard | 20:41 |
| dhellmann | russellb: ++ | 20:41 |
| jeblair | russellb: exactly | 20:41 |
| AJaeger | annegent_: I consider it too early, there need to be more discussions... | 20:41 |
| russellb | that people agree to as "this is what we're doing and how we're collaborating" | 20:41 |
| flaper87 | russellb: ++ | 20:41 |
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| jeblair | lifeless: it's SUPER hard | 20:41 |
| annegent_ | I would like to see evidence of them working together, personally from experience with the install guide. | 20:41 |
| AJaeger | and I'm not really seeing them | 20:41 |
| russellb | if they don't hvae that, i don't see a git repo as valuable or useful | 20:41 |
| ttx | annegent_: +1 | 20:41 |
| jeblair | i really don't want to rename 100 repos | 20:41 |
| lifeless | jeblair: I stand corrected. InfraAAS has spoken | 20:41 |
| jeblair | which should be able to start out in openstack | 20:41 |
| annegent_ | jeblair: aww man yah | 20:41 |
| lifeless | jeblair: 100 repos?! wtf that worries me more than anything :) | 20:42 |
| russellb | annegent_: right, i'm also concerned that this makes no sense as a single team, and reality is that it's 2 or 3 teams | 20:42 |
| jeblair | (and i also have a general issue with encoding software development lifecycle attributes in git repository names) | 20:42 |
| russellb | would like some comments on that from people doing the work | 20:42 |
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| ttx | ok, so do we agree to delay it until the plan is more baked ? | 20:42 |
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| russellb | lifeless: repo per package | 20:42 |
| flaper87 | russellb: I'd expect the plan to show how the collaboration will happen | 20:42 |
| russellb | presumably | 20:42 |
| ttx | no point in discussing it further today then | 20:42 |
| AJaeger | it's not clear how distro specifics are done IMHO - whether there's one Debian, one Ubuntu, etc repo, or one RPM or one DEB - or all in one... | 20:42 |
| jeblair | russellb: yeah | 20:42 |
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| sdague | so, it's also fine if we think this is just a debian effort and call it openstack/deb-packaging | 20:43 |
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| flaper87 | overall, I love the idea | 20:43 |
| sdague | because maybe this is like the puppet / chef / ansible thing | 20:43 |
| ttx | sdague: that's what I want them to sort out | 20:43 |
| jeblair | sdague: yeah, i think that would be fine if that's what folks want to do | 20:43 |
| russellb | sdague: that's my expectation, personally | 20:43 |
| flaper87 | sdague: exactly | 20:43 |
| ttx | sdague: horiizontal "packaging" or moree like puppet/chef | 20:43 |
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| sdague | it sounded though like there was some cross distro buy in from the list and discussion at summit | 20:43 |
| ttx | OK, Let's just WIP the proposal and come back to it when it's matured a bit ? | 20:43 |
| sdague | maybe my reading is incorrect | 20:44 |
| russellb | only with the really high level idea of "use infra to build packages" | 20:44 |
| markmcclain | ttx: +1 | 20:44 |
| lifeless | the summit issue is that you get a very small set of folk in a room | 20:44 |
| lifeless | often | 20:44 |
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| ttx | since we have other topic to cover | 20:44 |
| lifeless | because conflicts | 20:44 |
| russellb | i expect the actual collaboration to be base infra stuff | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | sdague: that was my impression from the current discussion, too | 20:44 |
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| sdague | ok, so we should at least give zigo some specific "do this next" | 20:44 |
| lifeless | +1 | 20:44 |
| anteaya | sdague: the cross distro buy in depends on the details | 20:44 |
| annegent_ | sdague: yeah he'll want that | 20:44 |
| ttx | #agreed Packaging team proposal should be WIPed until the plan is more baked | 20:45 |
| ttx | #info we should give zigo some specific "do this next" | 20:45 |
| jeblair | 1) work out whether it's 1 or more horizonatl efforts | 20:45 |
| sdague | so I guess that's "please get a more concrete plan of what contents are in the repo, and what the plan is foir what's in that" | 20:45 |
| jeblair | 2) describe the collaboration plan | 20:45 |
| lifeless | isn't reference/new-projects-requirements.rst the key thing? | 20:45 |
| russellb | jeblair: ++ | 20:45 |
| lifeless | I mean, thats our benchmark | 20:45 |
| ttx | jeblair: do I hear you taking an action hgere , | 20:45 |
| ttx | here? | 20:45 |
| jeblair | can do, will incorporate what i and sdague said | 20:45 |
| ttx | #action jeblair to give zigo some specific "do this next" | 20:46 |
| jeblair | and anything else anyone spits out | 20:46 |
| ttx | #topic Ironic is considering changing their release cycle | 20:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Ironic is considering changing their release cycle (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:46 | |
| sdague | cool, thanks jeblair | 20:46 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/185203 | 20:46 |
| lifeless | I think the plan jeblair wants is infra-level, not governance and we should just +1 the project | 20:46 |
| ttx | This is more of a heads-up -- we have a thread about it started at: | 20:46 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-May/065036.html | 20:46 |
| jeblair | lifeless: (which use of 'infra' was that?) | 20:46 |
| devananda | o/ | 20:46 |
| ttx | FWIW this was discussed with the release team and we agree to use Ironic as an experiment in this direction | 20:46 |
| lifeless | jeblair: the infra team | 20:46 |
| ttx | Ironic doing it is not that much of an issue, but it has interesting side-effects | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | devananda: great write up, btw! | 20:47 |
| * russellb happy if release team is happy | 20:47 | |
| ttx | Basically we need to relax the constraints on "common versioning" (having "liberty" things be a set of diverse version numbers)... | 20:47 |
| devananda | flaper87: ty | 20:47 |
| jeblair | lifeless: no, we're not involved; i think this would be a new openstack project | 20:47 |
| morganfainberg | Yay ironic! | 20:47 |
| ttx | ... and also overhaul the stable point release process (since we won't be able to tag a common point release anymore) | 20:47 |
| lifeless | jeblair: in that your needs around repo counts, locations etc are not governance concerns AFAICT. | 20:47 |
| ttx | Discussion on release versioning @ | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | I'm happy to see projects experimenting with this | 20:47 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-May/065211.html | 20:47 |
| ttx | and Stable point release abandonment / process overhaul discussed @ | 20:47 |
| devananda | fwiw, I've just been told that morganfainberg has fielded several questions on when/whether keystone will follow suit | 20:47 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-May/065144.html | 20:47 |
| devananda | so this is already starting the conversation in other projects | 20:47 |
| ttx | So please chime in on those threads if you have a strong opinion either way | 20:47 |
| morganfainberg | I will confirm what devananda said. | 20:47 |
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| dhellmann | devananda, morganfainberg : I think a lot of projects are going to find this easier to manage, but it would be good for us to experiment with one or two this cycle to work out the kinks in the process changes | 20:48 |
| ttx | lifeless: (I still think a project team that doesn't even have a team or a lead yet is not "baked enough" for us to make a final call | 20:48 |
| ttx | ) | 20:48 |
| devananda | I would have expected any project that is reasonably usable "stand-alone" to be interested... | 20:48 |
| lifeless | ttx: sure, so that should be the thing :) | 20:48 |
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| devananda | but the impact on developers that this seems to offer (and really, is the impetus behind the proposal) seems to be more interesting | 20:49 |
| dhellmann | devananda: I suspect even some of the others will find it appealing | 20:49 |
| devananda | dhellmann: agreed re: try it in a few projects first | 20:49 |
| ttx | Still a lot of details to clear on the above-mentioned "side-effects" | 20:49 |
| ttx | so i would not rush anyone else in that | 20:49 |
| morganfainberg | dhellmann: keystone will not be moving immediately. I worry about disrupting too much. Even though I like the release model proposed by ironic better personally. | 20:49 |
| devananda | ironic has been the forerunner on trying new things, and our developers seem comfortable (and some are clearly eager) to try this out htis cycle | 20:50 |
| lifeless | I'm just happy folk want to reduce our cycle time:) | 20:50 |
| ttx | anyway, that was more a heads-up than a full-fledged discussion. Please go to the threads if you have something to contribute | 20:50 |
| lifeless | we'll get down to daily at some point | 20:50 |
| sdague | yeh, lifeless's requirements management plan will definitely need to get fully implemented, because the coinstallability is going to be one of the key questions I think | 20:50 |
| devananda | dhellmann: i'll be looking to you & ttx for some guidance on _how_ to do it, as I'm not as experienced at release mgmt as either of you | 20:50 |
| ttx | #topic Move application to current projects up in tag page | 20:50 |
| sdague | ironic is definitely a good experimental starting point | 20:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Move application to current projects up in tag page (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:50 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/184576 | 20:50 |
| ttx | Added this one to the agenda so that we can bypass jeblair's -1 | 20:50 |
| ttx | jeblair: Basically the tagged-projects directive reads data from projects.yaml so there is no duplication. | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | devananda: we'll figure it out together :-) | 20:51 |
| ttx | so if you remove your -1 I'll proceed in approving | 20:51 |
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| ttx | #topic Workgroup reports | 20:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Workgroup reports (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:51 | |
| jeblair | ttx: i will read the comments and attempt to understand them | 20:52 |
| ttx | jeblair: let us know if you still don't get it, we should have 2 min in Open discussion | 20:52 |
| ttx | On the project team guide WG, we worked on setting up the repository | 20:52 |
| ttx | And announced the virtual sprint | 20:52 |
| ttx | I'll probably use some of my travel time next week to start writing stuff there | 20:52 |
| ttx | annegent_, flaper87: News on the communications WG ? | 20:52 |
| annegent_ | got a blog post out last week | 20:53 |
| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/VirtualSprints#OpenStack_Project_Team_Guide | 20:53 |
| annegent_ | post-summit wrap up | 20:53 |
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| ttx | annegent_: should we set up some opt-in proofreading? | 20:53 |
| annegent_ | ttx: srsly I'd love help | 20:54 |
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| flaper87 | that'd be great, indeed. | 20:54 |
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| * russellb happy to help | 20:54 | |
| ttx | annegent_: maybe post the draft of the text on openstack-tc ? | 20:54 |
| ttx | or some etherpad ? | 20:54 |
| annegent_ | #link http://www.openstack.org/blog/2015/05/technical-committee-highlights-may-29-2015/ | 20:54 |
| flaper87 | russellb: we'll poke you :D | 20:54 |
| flaper87 | ttx: we keep it on an etherpad | 20:54 |
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| annegent_ | I still don't completely know if we're covering what we should, does anyone have feedback they've heard? | 20:54 |
| ttx | maybe a reusable etherpad url then | 20:54 |
| ttx | annegent_: I think it covered what it needed to cover | 20:55 |
| flaper87 | ttx: yup, we have that. lemme get it | 20:55 |
| jeblair | Tags: TC | 20:55 |
| lifeless | the compute kernel tag ting | 20:55 |
| flaper87 | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/next-tc-blog-post | 20:55 |
| jeblair | i got a chuckle out of that | 20:55 |
| lifeless | thats a thing I think we should get more engagement on | 20:55 |
| ttx | lifeless, markmcclain, jaypipes: you suggested an "architecture" WG, is it something you could set up ? | 20:55 |
| flaper87 | and here we keep a list of topics to write on | 20:55 |
| flaper87 | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tc-communications-topics | 20:55 |
| anteaya | annegent_: the problem I had was the folks who were unhappy didn't communicate that until campaign time | 20:55 |
| ttx | lifeless, markmcclain, jaypipes: I called it the "Scuba WG" since I picture it deep-diving into projects, discovering issues and helping fix those | 20:55 |
| flaper87 | we could merge those 2 etherpads | 20:55 |
| anteaya | annegent_: so no I haven't heard anything | 20:55 |
| russellb | flaper87: single etherpad ++ | 20:56 |
| lifeless | ttx: hah, sure. | 20:56 |
| ttx | lifeless: clarifying the mission of the WG would be great for a start | 20:56 |
| jaypipes | ttx: unfortunately, my bandwidth won't allow me to really play a lead part in that one. | 20:56 |
| flaper87 | russellb: roger, I think we can drop the later then | 20:56 |
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| flaper87 | annegent_: ^ ? | 20:56 |
| lifeless | ttx: I have some early stage thoughts here - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Lifeless/ArchitectureThoughts - haven't started on a WG per se yet | 20:56 |
| russellb | i hope everyone acts as a scuba anyway | 20:56 |
| markmcclain | ttx: sure.. can collaborate with lifeless | 20:57 |
| russellb | seems most people here are deep diving into one area or another | 20:57 |
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| russellb | interested in what the WG proposes though | 20:57 |
| anteaya | russellb: I'm tired of acting as scuba and getting no recognition for it | 20:57 |
| ttx | lifeless, markmcclain: ok, let's have something to elaborate on for next week | 20:57 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:57 | |
| annegent_ | I'm good with etherpad drafts! | 20:57 |
| ttx | Looks like mordred is late in kicking off the M naming process (was supposed to start yesterday) | 20:57 |
| russellb | anteaya: not sure what recognition needs to be different than every other openstack contributor? | 20:57 |
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| jeblair | ttx: i think he did though? | 20:57 |
| ttx | jeblair: maybe you could subst, or we'll just move the dates off | 20:57 |
| annegent_ | anteaya: good input anyway | 20:57 |
| anteaya | russellb: okay | 20:57 |
| ttx | jeblair: oh, recently ? | 20:58 |
| ttx | cool | 20:58 |
| dhellmann | ttx: yeah, today | 20:58 |
| anteaya | annegent_: I'll let you know if I hear anything | 20:58 |
| ttx | Got contacted by the Japanese community which wanted to help suggest names, which is great news | 20:58 |
| jeblair | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-June/065515.html | 20:58 |
| ttx | In other news, we've been setting up a chair rotation on the cross-project meeting (Tuesdays at 21:00 UTC). | 20:58 |
| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Release_Naming/M_Proposals | 20:58 |
| ttx | I think it's essential so that we all experience the current system and come up with ways to improve it. | 20:58 |
| ttx | I did last week, Doug is doing this week. Who wants next week ? | 20:58 |
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| annegent_ | flaper87: do you have bandwidth to write this week's post? Or do we punt to next week? | 20:58 |
| markmcclain | ttx I can take a turn next week | 20:59 |
| ttx | markmcclain: cool, thx! | 20:59 |
| jeblair | (and there are already a lot of really good M names suggested, with nice explanations) | 20:59 |
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| ttx | I'll add a chair rotation paragraph on https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting | 20:59 |
| flaper87 | annegent_: I can do it, I think we can decide depending on the topics we have | 20:59 |
| ttx | so people can add themselves | 20:59 |
| russellb | i saw MURICA proposed on twitter, as a follow up to liberty (which i don't think should be included, but i chuckled) | 20:59 |
| flaper87 | but if there are enough, I'll give it a go | 20:59 |
| jeblair | (and some hilariously bad ones) | 20:59 |
| ttx | #action ttx to document chair rotation schedule on https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting | 20:59 |
| fungi | someone has added MURICA to the wiki, yes | 21:00 |
| russellb | oh dear | 21:00 |
| annegent_ | flaper87: the kernel discussion is a good deep dive | 21:00 |
| sdague | so... the TC gets to cull a bit right? | 21:00 |
| jeblair | it's safely in a special 'not meeting criteria' section | 21:00 |
| ttx | Japanese comlmunity suggested "Musashi" which is an old name of Tokyo AND aJapanese sword master | 21:00 |
| fungi | safely in the "ignore these suggestions" section | 21:00 |
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| jeblair | ttx: yep, is on there | 21:00 |
| russellb | "noted, and duly ignored" list | 21:00 |
| russellb | excellent | 21:01 |
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| jeblair | sdague: no culling, but the tc would have to act to add murica since it doesn't meet criteria | 21:01 |
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| sdague | jeblair: ok | 21:01 |
| sdague | that's good enough for me | 21:01 |
| ttx | Alright, time to end | 21:01 |
| ttx | Thx everyone | 21:01 |
| russellb | o/ | 21:01 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 2 21:01:30 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-06-02-20.01.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-06-02-20.01.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-06-02-20.01.log.html | 21:01 |
| ttx | dhellmann: floor is yours | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | #startmeeting cross-project | 21:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 2 21:01:46 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dhellmann. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cross-project)" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'cross_project' | 21:01 |
| devananda | \o | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | courtesy ping PTLs: adrian_otto boris-42 bswartz david-lyle devananda dims dtroyer emilienm flaper87 gordc hyakuhei isviridov | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | courtesy ping PTLs: j^2 jeblair johnthetubaguy kiall loquacities mestery morganfainberg mtreinish nikhil_k notmyname rakhmerov | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | courtesy ping PTLs: redrobot SergeyLukjanov slagle SlickNik smelikyan stevebaker thingee thinrichs ttx | 21:01 |
| ttx | o/ | 21:01 |
| thingee | o/ | 21:01 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:01 |
| mestery | o/ | 21:01 |
| elmiko | o/ | 21:01 |
| dtroyer | o/ | 21:02 |
| redrobot | o/ | 21:02 |
| tmcpeak | o/ | 21:02 |
| stevebaker | \o | 21:02 |
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| sdague | o/ | 21:02 |
| fungi | awesome | 21:02 |
| j^2 | hi! | 21:02 |
| loquacities | o/ | 21:02 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann: hi there | 21:02 |
| bknudson | yo | 21:02 |
| edleafe | o/ | 21:02 |
| ttx | wow, dhellmann is much more fficient at gathering the troops than I am. | 21:02 |
| boris-42 | how is going guys? | 21:02 |
| johnthetubaguy | o/ | 21:02 |
| SlickNik | o/ | 21:02 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I should have added the tc, too, I guess | 21:03 |
| dhellmann | We have some changes to the structure of this meeting, which we're putting into place starting this week. | 21:03 |
| dhellmann | ttx described them in his announcement email, but I'll mention them again as we go along. | 21:03 |
| ttx | they should still be around | 21:03 |
| dhellmann | we have a relatively brief agenda today | 21:03 |
| dhellmann | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting | 21:03 |
| dhellmann | #topic Horizontal teams announcements | 21:03 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 21:03 |
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| nikhil_k | o/ | 21:03 |
| ttx | On the release side... | 21:03 |
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| dhellmann | We'll start out each week with announcements from cross-project teams (oslo, docs, infra, release, etc.). | 21:03 |
| dhellmann | We usually want mailing list posts for these items, too, but this slot in the meeting is a good place to raise awareness of upcoming work that might affect other projects, or new initiatives. | 21:03 |
| dhellmann | So, does anyone have anything to report this week? | 21:03 |
| ttx | We are actively switching to "hands-off" tracking | 21:03 |
| * dhellmann pastes slower than ttx types | 21:03 | |
| boris-42 | dhellmann: heh | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Horizontal teams announcements (Meeting topic: cross-project)" | 21:03 | |
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| ttx | i.e. reporting on what gets done rather than trying to predict | 21:03 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann: I am preparing email with info about scaling up core teams=) | 21:03 |
| ttx | that let us overhaul our 1:1 sync system and replace it with office hours | 21:03 |
| dhellmann | boris-42: I look forward to reading that | 21:04 |
| ttx | ...and nobody showed up today (that is fine) | 21:04 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: did you get visits during your shift ? | 21:04 |
| * dhellmann was busy trying to unbreak ironic anyway | 21:04 | |
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| jungleboyj | o/ | 21:04 |
| ttx | hah | 21:04 |
| dhellmann | ttx: no, not today | 21:04 |
| stevebaker | ttx: what does office hours mean? | 21:04 |
| ttx | anyway, I'll work on the new version of http://status.openstack.org/release/ | 21:04 |
| dhellmann | stevebaker: if you stop by #openstack-relmgr-office at least one member of the release management team will be present to answer questions | 21:04 |
| dhellmann | or otherwise chat | 21:05 |
| ttx | stevebaker: we maintain two time slots at 0800-1000 UTC and 1800-2000 UTC | 21:05 |
| stevebaker | I see, sounds good | 21:05 |
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| dhellmann | during the release period, we'll use those time slots for syncing up as well, so they'll be more important around then | 21:05 |
| ttx | so if you have anything to discuss you can reach us there (except when we won't be around exceptionally) | 21:05 |
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| sdague | so out of the QA team - there is some experimental work up to support external plugins in grenade - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/185050/ - I'm hoping that will let more projects in the big tent use the upgrade testing infrastructure | 21:05 |
| ttx | and yes, PTls are expected to report during office hours on milestone or release weeks | 21:05 |
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| ttx | PTLs or their release liaisons obviously | 21:06 |
| ttx | </relmgt> | 21:06 |
| dhellmann | from oslo, I know we have one critical bug in oslo.messaging which we're working on landing for the ironic and tripleo teams -- we have a gate core dump issue we're working around | 21:06 |
| sdague | I think we're going to try to get heat and ironic to be our test cases for if that works | 21:06 |
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| stevebaker | sdague: is someone reworking the heat patch to be a plugin? | 21:07 |
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| sdague | stevebaker: yeh, I was talking with ... sirushti this morning about it | 21:07 |
| stevebaker | sdague: ok, i'll track progress on that | 21:07 |
| sdague | I was out last week, so still digging back out | 21:07 |
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| sdague | we talked through it briefly, I'll hopefully be able to provide a bit more guidance next week once I get a few things off my plate | 21:08 |
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| dhellmann | if no other cross-project teams have announcements, we'll move on... | 21:08 |
| sdague | I'd like to get that all done and in by L1 | 21:08 |
| loquacities | docs are starting on RST conversion | 21:08 |
| sdague | </qa> | 21:09 |
| redrobot | sdague barbican is also interested in Grenade testing | 21:09 |
| dhellmann | loquacities: nice! | 21:09 |
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| sdague | redrobot: cool, pop into #openstack-qa and hopefully we can help get you rolling with external plugin support as well | 21:09 |
| loquacities | we're doing install guide, cloud admin guide, and ha guide this time around | 21:09 |
| j^2 | loquacities: dang, that’s great news! | 21:09 |
| loquacities | :) | 21:10 |
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| fungi | oh, and your manuals finally branched for kilo | 21:10 |
| loquacities | yep yep | 21:10 |
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| elmiko | the api-wg has a guideline up for our merge process that involves our process for announcing upcoming guidelines, #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186836/ | 21:10 |
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| boris-42 | sdague: btw the another way for upgrade/HA testing will be multiscenario load support in Rally | 21:11 |
| dhellmann | loquacities: the that plugin documentation tool I mentioned at the summit has landed in stevedore: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/stevedore/sphinxext.html | 21:11 |
| boris-42 | sdague: so we can call grenade + load simultaneously | 21:11 |
| loquacities | neat! | 21:11 |
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| boris-42 | sdague: and ensure that it actually works (like nova supports nova downtime upgrades) and so on | 21:11 |
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| dhellmann | ok, let's move on | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | #topic Update the API WG merge process for Liberty | 21:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Update the API WG merge process for Liberty (Meeting topic: cross-project)" | 21:12 | |
| dhellmann | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186836/ | 21:13 |
| dhellmann | etoews, do you want to tell us about this? | 21:13 |
| elmiko | oh, sorry i jumped the gun on that one | 21:13 |
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| elmiko | etoews is away, i'm standing in for him | 21:13 |
| dhellmann | ah, hi, elmiko | 21:13 |
| elmiko | we basically, have a better defined process for how we will migrate proposed guidelines from the voting process into the "for real" guidelines | 21:13 |
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| elmiko | it involves a freeze period, once we are happy, and then alerting the PTL/CPL about the changes for a final period of voting | 21:14 |
| elmiko | this will be announced on the ML, and will be 1 week of freeze | 21:14 |
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| elmiko | hopefully, we'll get feedback from interested parties if things need to change or are unacceptable | 21:14 |
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| elmiko | and once the freeze is over, we will merge the guidelines into our official repo | 21:14 |
| elmiko | there might be a few minor details i missed, but i would love if anyone has comments on the process #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186836/ | 21:15 |
| dhellmann | would it be useful to add those sorts of things to the agenda for this meeting, too? | 21:15 |
| elmiko | hmm | 21:15 |
| dhellmann | at least to raise awareness, even if we don't discuss them here | 21:15 |
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| elmiko | yea, that's a good idea. we could certainly list the reviews that are in freeze currently during the meeting | 21:15 |
| dhellmann | ok | 21:16 |
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| dhellmann | does anyone have questions for elmiko? | 21:16 |
| dhellmann | ok, then | 21:17 |
| dhellmann | #topic Vertical teams announcements | 21:17 |
| dhellmann | This is another recurring section of the meeting, meant to let vertical teams make announcements. | 21:17 |
| dhellmann | Again, we want to have mailing list posts for topics that are mentioned here, but consider this another means of communication. | 21:17 |
| dhellmann | So, does anyone have any big plans they need/want to share this week? | 21:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Vertical teams announcements (Meeting topic: cross-project)" | 21:17 | |
| elmiko | thanks | 21:17 |
| dhellmann | thanks, elmiko | 21:17 |
| dhellmann | a good example here is the ironic team's plan to move to intermediate releases | 21:18 |
| dhellmann | it's early in the cycle, so there may not be much to talk about, yet | 21:19 |
| sdague | so... not an announcement, but a thing we should probably get cross team socialized more | 21:19 |
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| jungleboyj | sdague: ++ | 21:19 |
| sdague | the dynamic policy ideas out of keystone are really cool, but have a lot of implications | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | ah, yeah, I saw both of those email threads cross in the ether just before the meeting | 21:19 |
| sdague | I had some good chats with jamielenox and morganfainberg at summit, but I think we should get that into a more cross project discussion mode sooner rather than later | 21:19 |
| j^2 | this might be relevant, but the Chef team has discovered upstream packaging bugs with libvirt with 14.04 and the RDO c7 repo breaking due to an API issue, has anyone else seen this with the distress? | 21:19 |
| sdague | because it's more than just a keystone thing | 21:19 |
| redrobot | dhellmann what is a "vertical" team? | 21:19 |
| morganfainberg | sdague: ++ | 21:20 |
| sdague | it's going to impact the whole world | 21:20 |
| dhellmann | morganfainberg, ayoung-meeting: what's the plan to get the policy discussion stuff synced up with the other projects? | 21:20 |
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| j^2 | s/distress/issue | 21:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | +1 has an interesting chat about policy, and its almost perfect timing for nova given the v2.1 changes, and having policy in flux at the moment | 21:20 |
| fungi | redrobot: anything that's not a "horizontal" team | 21:20 |
| morganfainberg | dhellmann: ayoung-meeting just sent a ML topic to setup a x-project and/or subteam | 21:20 |
| dhellmann | redrobot: docs, infra, oslo, release, etc. are "cross project" but nova, cinder, etc. are vertical -- make sense? | 21:20 |
| sdague | morganfainberg: ok, cool, I'm a couple hours delayed on that | 21:20 |
| morganfainberg | dhellmann: this was my recommendation so we can get more than keystone involved. | 21:20 |
| redrobot | dhellmann fungi ack | 21:20 |
| morganfainberg | sdague: yeah :) that was from the keystone meeting earlier today. | 21:21 |
| dhellmann | morganfainberg: yeah, I saw something about a trello board and eastern time zone meetings | 21:21 |
| stevemar | redrobot, horizon teams are teams horizon, oslo, osc (imo) | 21:21 |
| j^2 | dhellmann: oh thanks for that clarification | 21:21 |
| stevemar | blah... horizontal* | 21:21 |
| morganfainberg | dhellmann: trying to get it more visible. The ML and getting a real meeting would be good. | 21:21 |
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| dhellmann | morganfainberg: ++ | 21:21 |
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| dhellmann | trello looks like a nice organizing tool, but having to request permission to participate felt off-putting | 21:22 |
| jroll | I'm trying to get the informational spec for ironic's release model finished up this week, based on ML and review feedback | 21:22 |
| jroll | so we can move to it | 21:22 |
| morganfainberg | dhellmann: I plan on keeping pushing ayoung-meeting that way and the others from keystone. It needs to be a more than keystone initiative. | 21:22 |
| dhellmann | jroll: ++ | 21:22 |
| bknudson | one question that came up in the keystone meeting is whether a new project like the policy server belongs under keystone... | 21:22 |
| dhellmann | morganfainberg: good, I agree | 21:22 |
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| bknudson | or whether it should be part of the "big tent" openstack | 21:23 |
| ttx | steveamr: horizontal = RelMgt, QA, Docs, Infra, I18N... teams that work with all the vertical projects | 21:23 |
| krotscheck | Does javascript count as a vertical or as a horizontal? :) | 21:23 |
| dhellmann | bknudson: good question. Another is, should there be a policy server? | 21:23 |
| fungi | dhellmann: yeah, trello is not free software, but there are free software kanban boards like trello | 21:23 |
| morganfainberg | Yeah is it under the big tent or keystone's corner of the big tent. | 21:23 |
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| morganfainberg | Was the question. | 21:23 |
| ttx | stevemar: vertical = anything else (Nova, Swift, Keystone...) | 21:23 |
| jroll | krotscheck: is JS a project now? :P | 21:23 |
| ttx | Horizon is a bit of a diagonal | 21:23 |
| ayoung-meeting | I want it to be more than Keystone | 21:24 |
| morganfainberg | ttx: I like that description of horizon ;) | 21:24 |
| krotscheck | jroll: It's a state of mind, really. | 21:24 |
| david-lyle | up and to the right | 21:24 |
| jroll | heh | 21:24 |
| dhellmann | fungi: ok, maybe if this team wants to experiment they can talk to infra about helping to stand something like that up? | 21:24 |
| fungi | horizon protrudes in the z axis | 21:24 |
| ttx | david-lyle: top-right quadrant maybe | 21:24 |
| sdague | ayoung-meeting: so instead of hiding things in a subgroup meeting can we just discuss straight on the mailing list? | 21:24 |
| sdague | it would actually be kind of cool for openstack-dev to have... development discussions :) | 21:24 |
| ayoung-meeting | sdague, there are so many details, but I am happy to do so | 21:24 |
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| fungi | dhellmann: yep. it would be worth starting a discussion anyway | 21:25 |
| dhellmann | sdague: ++ | 21:25 |
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| dhellmann | fungi: I might even be OK with experimenting with trello to see if the "a tool like that" is worth investigating | 21:25 |
| sdague | ayoung-meeting: yes, but details need to be turned into text anyway, and discussion via email seems good at this point, also to keep it so that more people can participate without being at a meeting | 21:25 |
| dhellmann | but long term, we'd want to host something with better access controls | 21:25 |
| ayoung | dhellmann, I'm still mixed, but I needed *something* | 21:26 |
| dhellmann | (better in terms of integration) | 21:26 |
| fungi | dhellmann: yep. it's a reasonable experiment | 21:26 |
| dhellmann | ayoung: understood | 21:26 |
| ayoung | so, I think there are two parts: | 21:26 |
| ayoung | one is mechanism, which is the easy part | 21:26 |
| stevemar | ttx, yes, forgot to put etc... after naming a few horizontal projects :) | 21:26 |
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| ayoung | the second is getting the story straight across all the projects | 21:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: I have seen jira plugins do a decent trello board, and get free licences for open source projects, I could dig out details if thats useful at some point | 21:26 |
| fungi | dhellmann: i want to say the tripleo team did some similar experimentation with trello with the idea that it if worked out then we could look at running a free alternative kanban board | 21:26 |
| ayoung | lets focus on that part happening in the mailing list | 21:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: but you know that opens a big can of worms we might want to leave shut | 21:27 |
| dhellmann | ayoung: it sounds like nova may have some new requirements for policy, too | 21:27 |
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| fungi | johnthetubaguy: free licenses for open source projects does not mean free as in speech software, that's just free as in beer | 21:27 |
| ayoung | fungi, ++ | 21:27 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy: yeah, we might not have an infra team any more if we ask them to deploy jira :-) | 21:27 |
| j^2 | fungi, i like the idea of a openstack hosted kanban, the Chef team would love that, we’ve tried trello also, it didn’t stick due to people having to sign up | 21:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | fungi: yep, thats true | 21:27 |
| sdague | fungi: https://taiga.io/ is actually looking pretty good, and is open source | 21:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: agreed, just putting that out there | 21:27 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy: yep :-) | 21:28 |
| ttx | Maniphest actually has a kanban-style dashboard | 21:28 |
| dhellmann | ttx: is that part of phabricator? | 21:28 |
| sdague | there's that as well :) | 21:28 |
| ttx | dhellmann: yes | 21:28 |
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| dhellmann | ok, so maybe we want to start with that then | 21:28 |
| fungi | sdague: yeah, taiga got discussed some at the summit in the storyboard replacement options session. there's a bit of analysis of its issues on the etherpad from that | 21:28 |
| ttx | dhellmann: that's the part of Phabricator that the infra team is considering deploying | 21:28 |
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| sdague | anyway, away from tools, back to the policy thing. ayoung if you could get the details running on the list, because I think there are some distinct concerns on the where the validation points are going to be, how many more round trips to keystone, and where the sources of truth come from. | 21:29 |
| fungi | yeah, if we end up running phabricator's maniphest for task tracking, we get a kanban board for free | 21:29 |
| ttx | so if we move sufficiently fast there, that is the tool of choice | 21:29 |
| dhellmann | sdague: ++ | 21:29 |
| sdague | none of which I think are irreconcilable, so it should be a constructive discussion | 21:30 |
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| dhellmann | ok, I think that concludes the formal portion of our agenda this week | 21:31 |
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| dhellmann | #topic Open discussion | 21:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: cross-project)" | 21:31 | |
| ayoung | sdague, yep. I will post a cleaned up version of the Dynamic Policy overview | 21:31 |
| dhellmann | ayoung: great, thanks | 21:31 |
| dhellmann | does anyone else have anything they would like to bring to the group this week? | 21:31 |
| krotscheck | Just a plug to get everyone looking at the CORS spec :) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/179866/ | 21:31 |
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| elmiko | api-wg is still looking for a few good CPLs ;) https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons#API_Working_Group | 21:32 |
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| ttx | krotscheck: if it doesn't get more -1s I think we'll be able to move it to final approval stage | 21:32 |
| devananda | I object to anyphing that cant include the letter f in its name on the grounds that it can't be that cool | 21:32 |
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| krotscheck | ttx: That'd be great. Can I get a hard deadline for that? Without one, things tend to linger. | 21:32 |
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| dhellmann | yes, our general policy on specs is lazy consensus, so if you don't vote we assume you like it | 21:33 |
| ttx | krotscheck: if by end of week it's still in lazy consensus state, I'll add it to TC meetign agenda for next week for final approval | 21:33 |
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| ttx | krotscheck: so yes, time to call for last-minute reviews of that | 21:33 |
| krotscheck | Ok, so I should send a message to the mailing list for final comments? | 21:34 |
| dhellmann | krotscheck: maybe you should send an email to the -dev list | 21:34 |
| dhellmann | heh | 21:34 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann: is there instruction how to create WG?) | 21:34 |
| ttx | krotscheck: or revive the previous thread with a "last minute call" | 21:34 |
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| ttx | krotscheck: ISTR there was a thread somewhere already | 21:34 |
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| dhellmann | boris-42: we have http://governance.openstack.org/reference/new-projects-requirements.html but I'm not sure that's what you want -- what do you have in mind? | 21:35 |
| krotscheck | Sent | 21:35 |
| krotscheck | woooo | 21:36 |
| jroll | krotscheck: this is where I say "coffeescript or gtfo", right? | 21:36 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann: I would like to make a WG of operators that will work on big big parametrized rally task for real cloud validation | 21:36 |
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| boris-42 | dhellmann: to check that cloud is really ready for production | 21:36 |
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| boris-42 | dhellmann: there is about 5 operators for now | 21:37 |
| boris-42 | there are* | 21:37 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann: so what we should do ? create new stackforge project? | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | boris-42: ok, the first step is to start organizing the group and actually doing something, and then it can be considered as an official project | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | do you need a git repo? | 21:37 |
| ttx | boris-42: if it's an Ops WG, fifieldt can help setting it up | 21:38 |
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| boris-42 | dhellmann: we actually don't need repo (we can store this file/files in rally) | 21:38 |
| ttx | boris-42: those usually gather at Ops Midcycles/Summits for a working session | 21:38 |
| boris-42 | ttx: yep it's fully Ops groups | 21:38 |
| boris-42 | ttx: except probably me=) | 21:38 |
| krotscheck | jroll: You may not wake up if you do that :) | 21:38 |
| ttx | boris-42: so yeah, I would encourage you to reach out to fifieldt | 21:38 |
| jroll | :D | 21:38 |
| dhellmann | boris-42: ++ to what ttx said | 21:39 |
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| boris-42 | ttx: dhellmann ok thanks | 21:39 |
| dhellmann | ok, any other topics for this week? | 21:39 |
| ttx | boris-42: they have plenty of WG there but I have no idea how they "created" them (other than by self-organizing and keeping Tom informed) | 21:39 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann: [openstack-dev][all][infra][tc][ptl] Scaling up code review process (subdir cores) | 21:40 |
| boris-42 | ttx: ok great I am going to email him=) | 21:40 |
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| dhellmann | boris-42: ok, I'll check that thread on the ML | 21:40 |
| boris-42 | dhellmann: thanks | 21:40 |
| dhellmann | if we have nothing else, we can leave early | 21:41 |
| ttx | we should | 21:41 |
| dhellmann | ok, thank you all, and see you next week | 21:41 |
| boris-42 | see you | 21:41 |
| elmiko | thanks dhellmann ! | 21:41 |
| pshige | see you | 21:41 |
| krotscheck | Toodles! | 21:41 |
| dhellmann | #endmeeting | 21:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:41 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 2 21:41:39 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:41 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cross_project/2015/cross_project.2015-06-02-21.01.html | 21:41 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cross_project/2015/cross_project.2015-06-02-21.01.txt | 21:41 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cross_project/2015/cross_project.2015-06-02-21.01.log.html | 21:41 |
| jungleboyj | Thanks! | 21:41 |
| redrobot | thanks dhellmann | 21:41 |
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