Tuesday, 2015-06-02

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anteaya#startmeeting third-party08:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun  2 08:02:27 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.08:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"08:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'08:02
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anteayahands up if you are here for the third party meeting08:03
lennybthere is an issue I would like to discuss or at least note. regarding http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-June/065367.html08:04
anteayaplease continue08:04
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anteayaplease continue08:06
lennybI've discussion with infra this morning and it seems like zuul missing feature/bug. The root cause of this empty comments that Dan complains about and jogo asked to disable our account last time08:06
anteayathe part that is the problem is that you aren't in -nova08:06
lennybis that we are filtering out files that is 'not interesting' to us, but zuul still makes a comment.08:06
anteayaeven now you are not in the #openstack-nova irc channel08:06
anteayaand you aren't monitoring your own system08:07
anteayadansmith has no problem about your ability to address your account when someone posts to the email list08:07
lennybi know, infra guys asked me to discuss this here as well since they have similar issues08:07
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anteayathe problem is that you aren't paying attention to your own account unless someone does08:07
anteayaa third party operator has similar issues08:08
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anteayabut they are not in the same boat as yourself08:08
anteayawhich is about to have your account permanently banned from nova08:08
lennybthose comments went directly from zuul without triggering Jenkins. Since this was not failure I did not monitor it08:08
anteayabecause you are not in the #openstack-nova channel, you don't attend nova irc meetings08:08
anteayanoone knows who you are08:09
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anteayaand they are tired of your account08:09
anteayayou have to monitor your system, period08:09
lennybi see08:09
anteayaand you have to be in the irc channels for the projects you expect to test08:09
anteayaand you have to attend the meetings08:09
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anteayaand people need to know who you are08:09
anteayaand need to see you care about your system08:10
anteayabecause right now, they don't see that08:10
lennybi see08:10
anteayawhile zuul may behave in a way you didn't expect, that isn't zuul's fault08:10
anteayathe tools always do random things08:10
anteayait is your responsiblity to be aware of this08:11
anteayaby monitoring your system08:11
anteayaand having strong communication ties with the various projects you test08:11
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anteayawell at least now you are in -cinder, -neutron and -nova08:13
anteayayou need to set up an irc bouncer so that people can send you messages when you are not online08:13
lennybbtw, moshele is there and we are siting in the same room :)08:14
anteayaand you need to read logs and backscroll daily to understand what people are talking about08:14
anteayawho is moshele?08:14
anteayaand why is that person not in this meeting with you?08:14
anteayathey aren't even in this channel08:14
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anteayathe co-ordinated presence of your company could use some co-ordination08:15
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anteayaand if they don't listen to you if you tell them that, send them to me08:15
lennybHe is one of the developers in nova and neutron projects08:15
anteayaand with your company?08:16
moshele_anteaya: hi08:16
anteayamoshele_: hello08:16
anteayamoshele_ lennyb the two of you need to work together better08:16
anteayaand the people in the projects you expect to test need to know you work together08:16
anteayaand if that is a problem you need to send someone who can hear me to these meetings08:17
moshele_anteaya: I am sorry it wasn't clear08:17
anteayaas you are about to have your account banned in -nova08:17
anteayaso this isn't just a matter of getting your ci account fixed08:17
anteayayou have to present a useful and available presence to the projects08:17
anteayaand so far, that effort has been lacking08:17
anteayamoshele_: do you read backscroll in the channels you are in?08:18
moshele_anteaya: no I have not08:18
moshele_anteaya: we are not comment in nova now08:19
anteayamoshele_: that isn't the point08:19
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anteayaread this log08:20
anteaya#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-infra/%23openstack-infra.2015-06-01.log.html#t2015-06-01T18:01:1508:20
anteayaand the conversation is between dansmith and anteaya08:20
anteayatell me when you have read it08:21
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moshele_anteaya:    ok I read it  also I was in the summit and meet dansmith08:23
anteayamoshele_: well then you need to talk to him08:24
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anteayawhat do you understand from reading the email sent to the list as well as this log?08:24
moshele_anteaya: I also talked regarding the CI in the summit08:24
anteayamoshele_: it didn't seem to do you much good08:24
anteayaas he is prepared to ban you08:24
anteayaban your account that is08:25
anteayaso dispite your efforts you still don't seem to understand what is expected of a third party ci account08:25
anteayaand I'm frustrated since I have been trying for many months to provide that information08:26
anteayaso where do we not have the understanding that we need08:26
anteayabecause I have tried to provide information consistent with meeting -nova expecations08:26
anteayaand that doesn't seem to have gotten across to whatever combination of yourself and lennyb08:27
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anteayado you dismiss what I'm telling you?08:28
anteayaor does your management?08:28
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moshele_anteaya: I agree we need to improve or monitoring for the CI08:28
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anteayayou need to improve your relationship with the community08:29
anteayaif you can't repair that working on your CI is pointless08:29
moshele_anteaya: also I will be  in the nova meeting as well08:29
lennyband improve my irc meeting08:29
anteayacan you hear me?08:29
anteayaat all?08:29
anteayayou need to take steps to fix this situation with nova developers08:30
anteayajust showing up in a meeting won't do it08:30
anteayaI really feel like I'm not getting through to you08:30
anteayaand it isn't for lack of being available to talk to you08:31
anteayanor for trying to bring your attention to what you need to prioritize08:31
eantyshevHi! Can we discuss that initial problem of zuul? many CIs are setup to run functional checks on doc/test changes, which is wrong IMHO08:32
anteayaI feel you are resisting engaging in the relationship you need to engage in to fix this08:32
moshele_anteaya: I am active in the nova and neutron irc I will improve the relationship with the community08:32
anteayaand I can't at all understand why08:32
anteayamoshele_: well either you will or you won't08:33
anteayabut dansmith has made it clear that if you don't, he isn't interested in seeing your account inferface with nova08:33
anteayaeantyshev: hello08:33
anteayaif zuul is behaving in a way that is contrary to your expectations you are welcome to file a bug08:34
anteayaeantyshev: but keep in mind any behaviour by tools in no way absolves you of taking responsibility for your system08:34
eantyshevanteaya: I see that08:34
anteayaeantyshev: great08:34
anteayaso with that in mind08:35
anteayado expand on your thoughts08:35
eantyshevanteaya: do you mean that Zuul behavior?08:36
anteayaeantyshev: you want to have a discussion08:36
anteayazuul seems to be the topic08:36
anteayaI'm listening08:36
eantyshevanteaya: Zuul allows to filter out some jobs by a file matcher, but not the whole event08:37
anteayaand you would like zuul to have the functionality fo filter out a job based on event?08:38
anteayais what I said an accurate statement?08:39
eantyshevanteaya: my proposal is to not report on events w/o any jobs08:39
eantyshevanteaya: AFAIU events have no information on files affected, hence cannot be filtered08:40
anteayaeantyshev: okay08:41
anteayalet's look at zuul's bugs, shall we?08:41
anteaya#link https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/project/67908:41
anteayado you see anything on the zuul bug list that might sound similar to what you are talking about?08:41
anteayaand the events are from gerrit correct?08:42
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eantyshevanteaya: Correct08:43
eantyshevanteaya: no such bug08:43
anteayaso you would need to start the job before you found out what files are affected08:43
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eantyshevanteaya: please explain, cannot understand why and how08:44
lennybyes, events are correct, The problem is that zuul comments even if no job was triggered08:44
anteayayou are welcome to file a zuul bug08:44
anteayalennyb: let's look at an example, shall we?08:44
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anteayalennyb: do you have the url of a review where this happened?08:45
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anteayaeantyshev: the gerrit event doesn't give information on files, yes?08:46
eantyshevanteaya: yes08:46
anteayaso how can zuul know, before starting the jobs, what files are affected by the change?08:46
anteayazuul has to take the event and process it to know08:47
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lennybpatchset 3 was filtered out by our zuul and no job was triggered. still zull put a comment with 'Build succeeded.'08:47
anteayawhy was patchset 3 filered out?08:48
anteayawhat is the determining factor that you decided not to test patchset 3?08:49
anteayajust as some feedback, having huge long pauses every time you are asked a question is very tiring for whoever is waiting to hear back from you08:51
anteayaif you don't know, say so08:51
lennybmodified files are not in layout.yaml08:51
anteayabut asking a question and then having over a minute of silence doesn't support the listener having confidence in you08:52
anteayaso you only want to test patches that modify layout.yaml?08:52
anteayanova has a layout.yaml?08:52
lennybanteaya: it takes me few secs to provide you the answer08:52
anteayalennyb: then say so08:52
* anteaya thinks08:52
* anteaya checks08:52
* anteaya digs up the answer08:52
* anteaya looks at the code08:53
lennyb* thinks08:53
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anteayalike this /me thinks08:53
anteayabut the / has to be at the front of the line08:53
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* lennyb talking to anteaya08:53
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anteayanow where is nova's layout.yaml file?08:54
* lennyb checks08:54
lennybanteaya: yes, nova CI is triggered only by files that can effect or be effected by our code/driver ...08:55
anteayalennyb: which is where?08:55
anteayaI don't know nova's code structure08:55
* lennyb preparing copy paste08:56
eantyshevanteaya: there's no file information in event http://paste.openstack.org/show/255616/08:56
anteayathere we go, now you understand irc communication better08:56
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lennyb( ignore $ in the end of the line, it's copy and paste from the linux )08:57
anteayalennyb: oh those are the files you test on08:57
lennybanteaya: yeap08:57
anteayalennyb: is that list of files something that nova agrees are the only files you need to test?08:57
anteayaeantyshev: I concur, there is no file information included in the json blob when gerrit broadcasts its events08:58
anteayaeantyshev: so the only way for zuul to know what files are affected is to process the event08:58
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anteayaeantyshev: can you see that?08:58
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lennybI thought it was our decision, since only those files are effected by PCI08:59
eantyshevanteaya: so this info is queried after event is processed, and filtering events is not a solution08:59
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anteayaI didnt' say there was no solution08:59
anteayabut expecting zuul to be able to selectively ignore an event isn't a solution, no09:00
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anteayazuul has to process each event09:00
eantyshevanteaya: okay, that's what I mean09:00
anteayanow what zuul does with the various events depends on what you asked zuul to do09:00
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anteayabut zuul can't ignore an event09:00
anteayaas the event itself doesn't contain enough information for it to know what to ignore09:01
lennybCan zuul not comment if no job was triggered ?09:01
anteayalennyb: it might be your decision09:01
anteayalennyb: my point is that this is yet another part of your interface with nova for which you saught no nova input09:02
anteayalennyb: I don't know09:02
anteayabut so far, you have been unsucessful in getting zuul to not comment if no job was triggered, yes?09:02
eantyshevanteaya: lennyb: I didn;t find this possibility in Zuul09:03
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anteayaeantyshev: okay thank you, that is a useful data point09:03
anteayaand we are out of time09:04
anteayalet's keep discussing this09:04
anteayaand seeing if we can find a solution to what you are looking for09:04
anteayathank you for your kind attendance and participation at today's meeting09:04
lennybis there an zuul irc chat room ( other then infra )09:04
anteayainfra is the zuul chat room09:04
anteayasee you next week, if not before09:05
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"09:05
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun  2 09:05:09 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)09:05
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-02-08.02.html09:05
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-02-08.02.txt09:05
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-02-08.02.log.html09:05
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mesteryhello neutron folks!13:59
johnsomgood morning13:59
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watanabe_isaoGood evening z.Z.Z14:00
mesterywatanabe_isao: :)14:00
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* mestery passes dougwig a redbull14:00
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amotoki_watanabe_isao: evening is too early to zzz :-)  good night14:01
mesteryOK, lets get this party started! :)14:01
mestery#startmeeting networking14:01
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openstackMeeting started Tue Jun  2 14:01:24 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mestery. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking)"14:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'networking'14:01
mestery#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings Agenda14:01
mesteryWe have a good amount to cover today14:01
watanabe_isaoamotoki_, :)14:01
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mestery#topic Announcements14:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking)"14:01
mesteryFirst off, welcome back to everyone from the Summit!14:01
mesteryI hope everyone enjoyed it.14:01
neiljerramVery much14:02
mesteryThanks to neiljerram for posting some comments from a "first time attendee" point of view :)14:02
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mesterySome things I wanted the team to be aware of post-Summit from a cross-project perspective:14:02
mestery#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-May/065211.html New release versioning14:02
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mesteryAll servers are changing how they version, moving to semvar similar to the clients14:02
mesteryE.g. Liberty won't be 2015.2, it will be 12.0.0 (or some such version)14:02
sahidjaypipes: thanks for your reviews, i have replied to the first one and since i would like to address your comments.. - can you take a look?14:02
mesterysahid: Wrong channel perhaps?14:03
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mesterysahid: This is the neutron meeting right now14:03
mestery#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-May/065144.html No more stable point releases14:03
sahidmestery: yes sorry14:03
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mesteryI suspect both of these items will affect packagers the most.14:03
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mesteryBringing them up here so people are aware.14:03
mesteryNext announcement14:04
* beagles wanders in a little late14:04
mestery#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/neutron-liberty-mid-cycle Neutron mid-cycles14:04
dougwigare they releasing independently, or will there will be an integrated/tested "this is L" package?14:04
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Link object at 0x941c8d0>14:04
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mesterydougwig: Integrated release is dead, but in general, I think most formally-integrated-projects will release at the same time this fall14:04
mestery#info We have two mid-cycles which are quickly approaching14:05
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mestery#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/neutron-liberty-qos-code-sprint QoS mid-cycle in Raanana Israel14:05
mestery#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/neutron-liberty-mid-cycle US mid-cycle in Fort Collins CO14:05
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* mestery slows down a bit14:06
amotoki_dougwig: I think it is a separate topic. I see Ironic is exploring more releases in liberty.14:06
mesteryAny questions on the mid-cycles?14:06
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mesteryOn the Ironic topic ...14:06
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mestery#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Ironic-neutron Weekly Ironic/Neutron meeting on IRC14:07
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mesteryPlease see Sukhdev for more information and to join in!14:07
mesteryAny other announcements for the team?14:07
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* mestery looks around for enikanorov or enikanorov_ 14:08
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mestery#topic Bugs14:08
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ajohi :)14:08
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ajosorry to be late...14:08
mesteryIn lieu of enikanorov_ and enikanorov being here, does anyone have any bugs they want to bring up?14:08
mesteryajo: No worries, you're perfectly on time ;)14:08
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neiljerramI presume you don't mean RFE bugs, at this point?14:09
mesteryneiljerram: Yes, I was going to discuss that process later in the meeting :)14:09
watanabe_isaomestery, sir the BP-spec policy in Announcements / Reminders14:09
mesterywatanabe_isao: Correct!14:10
mesteryOK, I know emagana had to miss today as well so lets move on to that topic then14:10
mestery#topic New RFE Process14:10
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mestery#link https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/doc/source/policies/blueprints.rst14:10
mesteryFor those who haven't been following the patches, thanks to the efforts of a bunch of people we have a new specs/RFE process for Liberty!14:10
* mestery waits for people to read the link14:10
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mesteryI see some people are already filing RFE bugs, which is great!14:11
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mesteryAnd dougwig proposed and we merged a new trimmed down spec template, also great!14:11
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ajomestery I guess that stuff that went through the normal spec+blueprint process, we don't need RFE, or is it beneficial for tracking somehow?14:11
mesteryAnd we have no deadlines this cycle. How great is that?14:11
mesteryajo: Correct! Anything already proposed will be reviewed as-is.14:11
mesteryNo need to drop it and file an RFE.14:11
ajomestery: it's awesome :)14:12
dougwigat least through liberty-1.14:12
mesteryWe'll review existing specs until Liberty-114:12
armaxmestery: no deadline aka gavage14:12
mesterydougwig: ++14:12
pc_mmestery: Will there be periodic review of the RFEs proposed?14:12
* armax rambles14:12
mesterypc_m: Yes! The drivers team is meeting weekly and reviewing14:12
armaxneiljerram: force feeding :)14:12
russellbso ... RFE == opportunity to get general idea reviewed/approved before writing spec?14:12
russellbtrying to distill this into tl;dr14:12
pc_mmestery: Thanks14:12
mestery#link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force-feeding14:12
mesteryrussellb: Yes!14:12
pcarverThe ML3 spec was started (not by me) prior to the summit and new RFE process but I'd be happy to take a stab at creating an RFE for it if that's a good idea.14:12
armaxrussellb: yes, pretty much14:13
russellbmestery: ok thanks14:13
mesteryExactly, we're trying to separate the "what" from the "how"14:13
mesterycc marun :)14:13
russellbseems reasonable, just making sure i parsed it properly14:13
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mesterypcarver: In the case of ML3, it may make sense, per my email. Thank you for doing that!14:13
armaxpcarver: we thought that for things that are already flying by14:13
armaxpcarver: there’s no need to go back and add a RFE14:13
armaxbut every case is different I suppose14:14
mesteryrussellb: Absolutely! If you find issues or holes, please, let me know.14:14
pc_mmestery: Are there guidelines yet for the RFEs? I know that was a TBD14:14
mesterypc_m: marun was going to submit a template RFE14:14
mesterymarun: Did you get to that? If not, I can take a crack this week.14:14
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marunmestery: armax stepped up and did the work14:14
pc_mmestery: That would be great14:14
armaxpc_m, mestery: no, guidelines have been filed14:14
dougwigi think armax merged something14:14
mesterymarun: Cool!14:14
mesterypc_m: It's in here at the bottom: https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/doc/source/policies/blueprints.rst14:14
mesteryarmax: Thanks for being awesome as usual :)14:15
armax#link https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/doc/source/policies/blueprints.rst#rfe-submission-guidelines14:15
* mestery gives armax two gold stars14:15
pc_marmax: thanks!14:15
* armax feels pretty14:15
mesteryThe elusive double gold star!14:15
dougwigarmax: +114:15
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mesteryI encourage people that are having issues to reach out to me on IRC, email, or stop by my home and I'll work with you as we move to this new RFE process.14:16
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* armax keeps his gold stars dearly in his wall of fame14:16
mesteryIt's going to be awesome, and I want everyone to succeed with it so I'm going to help as much as is needed here.14:16
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watanabe_isaomestery, sir, you said there is no dead line for RFEs. But how about the old spec (in back log), is the dead line for them lebarty-1?14:16
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mesterywatanabe_isao: Yes, but only because we want to move away from the old waterfall specs.14:16
mesterywatanabe_isao: Post Liberty-1, you can re-file as an RFE.14:17
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mesteryThe deadline is only for reviewing existing specs filed under the old process.14:17
watanabe_isaomestery, I see. Thank you.14:17
mestery#action mestery to send email to ML about new process.14:17
markmcclainmestery: it's summer folks might take you up on the offer to stop by your house to enjoy the good weather :p14:17
mesterymarkmcclain: My door is open. We can sit on the porch in the evenings :)14:17
mestery#link http://www.siliconloons.com/posts/2015-06-01-new-neutron-rfe-process/14:17
armaxme too me too14:17
ajoI'd consider it if I wasn't 10^3's of kms away ;)14:18
mesteryI wrote a blog on the new approach as well for folks to consume.14:18
mesteryajo: lol14:18
mesteryAny other questions on the new process before we move on?14:18
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neiljerramNo question, just warm fuzzy feelings.14:19
mesteryneiljerram: :)14:19
mesteryOK, lets move on!14:19
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russellbkind of curious why the warm fuzzy feelings14:19
russellbit's not less process, it's more, right??14:19
* mestery waits14:19
neiljerramIt feels very positive.14:19
russellbjust that you get the idea acked first, which hopefully saves some wasted time14:20
mesteryI don't think more, it's just splitting the process up.14:20
mesteryrussellb: ++14:20
neiljerramAlso separating out what from how sounds good to me.14:20
ajorussellb: slimmed spec template14:20
russellbmestery: ok, fair enough, 2 steps to hopefully help avoid wasted spec writing time14:20
russellbok, feel free to move on14:20
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russellbsorry :)14:20
mesteryrussellb: Yup, exactly.14:20
armaxrussellb: on no spec at all14:20
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russellbarmax: ok that's a part i missed, and that's kind of important, heh14:20
* mestery grabs russellb some more coffee14:21
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russellbi personally think specs are important for the bigger things14:21
armaxrussellb: I imagine we’ll have to wait and see in 6 months time whether things improved or not14:21
russellbor instead you waste even *more* time writing code14:21
dougwigrussellb: see the spec template: "Do you even need to file a spec? Most features can be done by filing an RFE bug14:21
dougwigand moving on with life."14:21
armaxand iterate in case things have gone off a cliff14:21
mesteryrussellb: Agreed!14:21
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russellbok, so simple things == no spec, +114:21
* russellb sits down14:21
mesteryrussellb: We're hopefully optimizing for the small things here14:22
dougwigoptimizing for small things, and getting consensus on smaller pieces at a time.   or just building a house of cards that will catch on fire.  we'll see.14:22
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mesteryOK with that comment from dougwig, lets move on to the next topic.14:23
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mestery#topic nova-network and neutron compatibility tasks14:23
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mestery#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-nova-network14:23
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mesteryAt the Summit, we had many good sessions with the nova team around closing the functionality gap between nova-network and neutron14:23
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mesteryIf you look on that etherpad, we have identified 9 tasks near the bottom14:23
mesteryWe need owners for a few14:23
* mestery waves at sc68cal who is driving a lot of this14:23
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mesterySorry, 7 tasks now14:24
* russellb took 1 \o/14:24
mesteryrussellb: Yay! Thanks for taking the gate job for upgrade testing!14:24
neiljerramI was thinking of looking at the DHCP hostname one, if no one else already has that.14:24
mestery#info russellb takes ownership of the gate job to ensure rolling upgrades work14:24
mesteryneiljerram: I think mlavalle has that one already, but please reach out to him14:24
neiljerramD'oh, sorry, there's already a name there.14:24
mlavalleneiljerram, mestery: Yes I have that one14:25
mesteryWe have two gaps left: distributed SNAT with DVR and "give me a network"14:25
mesterysc68cal has filed a spec for the latter14:25
mesteryThe former has nothing yet14:25
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mestery#link https://review.openstack.org/184857 "Give Me a Network" spec14:25
neiljerramI plan to comment on "Give Me a Network", at least...14:26
mesteryneiljerram: Great!14:26
sc68calI don't really own the spec, it's just that etherpad ate anything that was typed during the session so I tried to quickly write down what I remembered before I forgot it all14:26
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vikramI Will also help in review..14:26
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mesteryvikram: Thanks!14:26
mesterysc68cal: Agreed! Thanks for at least starting it14:27
mesteryFor DVR distributed SNAT, I think I'll talk to Swami and see what the plan is there.14:27
HenryGFor #3. ARP Spoofing we need to make a decision on how to move forward.14:27
mesteryHenryG: What is the holdup there?14:28
HenryGThe next patch is https://review.openstack.org/15763414:28
markmcclainHenryG: you were reading my mind to bring this up14:28
HenryGmarkmcclain: :)14:28
HenryGI know markmcclain has reservations about needing to create a big ebtables manager class14:29
armaxmestery: for some reason dvr on linux bridge has disappeared from that list?14:29
mesteryarmax: I don't think it was ever there, but lets add it.14:29
mesteryarmax: Added it14:29
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russellbwhy does this have to be ebtables?  to work with LB, too?14:30
armaxit was in the notes at the very top14:30
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russellbseems much easier to do in ovs14:30
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dougwigdvr/lb - is that because provider nets provide north-south/east-west without needing a neutron router in the mix, so that case was sort of covered?14:30
mesteryrussellb: Agreed, but keep in mind that we need to support LB as well14:30
markmcclainHenryG: I do... I think we should take the opportunity to design the class for our usage vs the forklifted code14:30
russellbmestery: *nods*14:31
HenryGrussellb: shared networks with LB is the common use case when migrating from nova network, I believe14:31
mesteryHenryG: ++14:31
marunthe current patch could definitely use a rewrite14:31
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armaxdougwig: that sounds roughly familiar14:32
maruncan we consider it a prototype and start again?14:32
armaxdougwig: either way it looks like that’s not documented properly14:32
marunmaybe with a design doc?14:32
amotoki_marun: which patch are you talking about?14:32
ajomarkmcclain: jlibosva also agrees on that14:32
mesteryHenryG: Seems like consensus is building towards a rewrite of that patch. Anyone disagree here?14:33
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markmcclainI think we can contribute some resources to help with the effort14:33
mesterymarkmcclain: Excellent!14:33
ajoI can loop in for reviews at least14:33
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marunI'd like to see some work on defining what problem is being solved before implementation proceeds14:33
mesteryI know this code has a long and storied history of (not) merging, but it seems like we're driving towards better testable code here with this one.14:34
marunIf only for the sake of future maintainers14:34
ajomarun +1 to devref ;)14:34
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markmcclainmarun: +100014:34
mesterymarun: And RFE perhaps?14:34
emaganaI am here...  better late than never..  my laptop crashed badly this morning~14:34
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ajomestery: may be a simple initial devref works, since that's already a dependency for two things14:35
russellbemagana: sounds about right.  i hate computers.  :-)14:35
ajo(source mac filtering  + DVR/lb)14:35
mesteryajo: Makes sense.14:35
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marunajo: that sounds reasonable to me.  It would be a good place to have a conversation about high-level design.14:35
mesterymarun ajo: ++14:36
HenryGOK, who is going to put up an initial draft?14:36
mesteryThat was my next question :)14:36
markmcclainI can take a stab at it14:36
mestery#action markmcclain to write a devref document about ebtables code in support of source mac filtering and DVR/LB work14:37
mesterymarkmcclain: Consider it done ;)14:37
ajomarkmcclain: loop in jlibosva, may be he has time to work on this, he already spent some time thinking about a new iptables manager design14:37
HenryGmarkmcclain: I was hoping you would, since you seemed to have an idea of what you wanted. :) Thanks!14:37
ajomarkmcclain: even he made some prototypes14:37
markmcclainajo will do14:37
ajomarkmcclain +114:38
mesteryajo: Hopefully jlibosva is ok with you volunterering him all over the place :)14:38
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ajomestery, probably not :D, but I guess he will be happy to provide his conclusions to previous work14:38
* jlibosva silently reads with mixed feelings :)14:38
ajojlibosva '':D ;) +114:38
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* ajo hides14:38
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mesteryOK, any other nova-network compatibility items to discuss?14:39
mesterysc68cal: Anything you wanted to add?14:39
sc68calThe linux bridge job is failing due to the structure of DevStack's neutron-legacy file14:39
russellbthanks a bunch to everyone putting time on this14:39
sc68calthere are many things placed into the main neutron-legacy file that were OVS specific14:39
sc68calso let's stop doing that in the future14:39
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* sc68cal points to PUBLIC_BRIDGE being defined in ovs_base but referenced in neutron-legacy 14:40
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mesterysc68cal: I believe you have a patch on that one out for review already14:40
mesterysc68cal: And thanks for shepherding this through!14:40
* russellb offers sc68cal a gold star14:41
sc68calyep, but I talked with Sam-I-Am about it and we found some other parts that are OVS specific, that we may move into ovs_base14:41
sc68calrussellb: oooooh :)14:41
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amotoki_Do we use some bug tag for nova-network compatibility? "nova-net"? I think we have several minor incompat things.14:41
mesterysc68cal: If you hit obstacles that need some help removing, please ping me ASAP14:41
mesteryamotoki_: That's a good idea!14:41
sc68calamotoki_: +++ good idea14:41
sc68calmestery: thanks, will do. That's all from me - I'll be working on stuff today14:42
amotoki_"nova-net" sounds good? if so, I will add it as an official tag.14:42
mesteryamotoki: Please do :)14:42
amotoki_sure. please move on.14:42
russellb"nova-network" would match the actual service name14:42
russellbbut *shrug*14:42
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russellbeven better14:43
mesterysc68cal: ++14:43
dougwigthe shorter the better, imo.14:43
amotoki_sc68cal: sounds better.14:43
russellbthat's pretty explicit, i like it14:43
HenryGBike shedding alert!14:43
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russellbtoo busy yak shaving to bike shed any further14:43
dougwigHenryG: lol14:43
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mesteryHey! It's yak shedding: https://twitter.com/mestery/status/60535903011935436814:44
HenryGSorry, didn't mean to offend, just trying to keep things moving. :)14:44
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mesteryLets keep rolling14:45
mestery2 more items to cover14:45
mestery#topic QoS14:45
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mesteryajo: You're up!14:45
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ajohi :)14:45
ajoso basically, we have an agreement on how to do the api, and how to build a service plugin for qos,14:45
ajoand we're ok with doing it: out tree, in tree.14:46
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mesteryajo: Do you mean in openstack/neutron vs. something like openstack/neutron-qos?14:46
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ajowe couldn't decide what was best, every side has it's pro's and drawbacks...14:46
ajocorrect :)14:46
ajomestery: correct14:46
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* mestery gets out his paint brush14:46
ajoin /neutron, has more core review, but needs more core attention, also has less overhead14:47
dougwigajo: that comes down to simpler integration vs faster velocity.14:47
mesteryajo: Another option is a feature branch on openstack/neutron14:47
ajoin /neutron-qos, requires less core review, introduceds more overhead14:47
sc68calhave we had any successful feature branches in Neutron?14:47
mesteryajo: And we look to merge it post Liberty-2 or something. We sync it weekly.14:47
mesterysc68cal: Yes! LBaaS V2!14:47
marunsc68cal: that's a good thing to think about14:47
ajogood question, but14:48
marunI'd vote for experimenting with a feature branch14:48
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sc68calI thought it was moved into its own repo?14:48
marunBecause we should be doing more of that14:48
ajoLBaaS isn't on openstack/neutron-lbaas ?14:48
mesterysc68cal: IT was, but it started as a feature branch14:48
mesterymarun: ++14:48
armaxmarun: ++14:48
sc68calhmm, that to me indicates that feature branches are not successful14:48
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marunfeature branches *should* allow faster iteration with less overhead14:48
dougwigsc68cal: the lbaas feature branch never got merged, so i'm not sure it's a success story of that process.14:48
rkukuraajo: Is enforcing QoS likely to require siginficant support from ML2 port binding and ML2 mechanism drivers? If so, in-tree might have advantages.14:48
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mesterysc68cal: Why? Initially, LBaaS was in neutron and we did a feature branch for V2. Then, we made the decision to split services, which wasn't due to LBaaS V2 at all.14:48
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ajorkukura: out-tree also guarantees better decoupling and better api contracts14:49
mesterydougwig: At the least, I'd say it was partly succesful.14:49
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sc68calmestery: we can discuss after meeting, I don't want to take up time :)14:49
ajowell, not guarantees, but helps14:49
dougwigi'd want a feature branch if it has to muck with a bunch of neutron.  i'd prefer external if it's a new extension and such, because then it's easier to play with with existing installs of neutron.  imo.14:49
markmcclainI think if we're targeting L2 then a feature branch might come with too many complications14:49
mesteryQoS is tied to ML2?14:49
marunmarkmcclain: which complications are you concerned about?14:49
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ajomestery: nope, plugin wise14:50
marunI think for large work we should either be doing feature branches our out-of-tree14:50
mesteryajo: I was just confused by how it was tied to ML2, which would be bad considering we have plugins outside of ML2.14:50
marunOtherwise we risk getting into patch series hell14:50
rkukuramestery: I don’t know, but I’d think when using ML2, the port binding would need to take QoS into account to ensure requested QoS can be provided.14:50
ajomestery: ack14:50
marunour -> or14:50
armaxI think we can start with a feature branch, assess how the code looks like and make a call whether to merge it or spin it off14:50
mesteryrkukura: Since ML2 is a control plane, sure, that makes sense. I was just concerned about tieing this to ML2 in some way.14:51
markmcclainmarun: generally merges... infra usually suggests that unless if lives beyond a cycle in tree is usually better14:51
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amotoki_i think feature branch fits qos work since it will require interations even if it turns out it needs to be coupled with L2.14:51
ajoarmax: that sounds right, we could decide by the end liberty-2 or so...14:51
ajomy concern here14:51
marunmarkmcclain: fair enough14:51
ajoI'd like this to be available for people to try out by the end of liberty14:51
rkukurafeature branch makes sense to me14:51
ajoif a feature branch risks it, I prefer an spin off14:51
armaxlet’s start off with a feature branch and get to the finish line quickly14:52
mestery#action mestery to work with ajo to find a place where QoS should live by next week.14:52
marunmarkmcclain: that would seem to conflict with what I've heard from folks on the lk side of things14:52
mesteryajo: ^^^ Sound ok?14:52
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ajomestery, sounds very good14:52
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mestery8 minutes left14:52
mesteryAnd one item on the agenda left14:52
mesteryLets move on14:52
mestery#topic Core and Vendor Decomp: Next Steps14:52
*** openstack changes topic to "Core and Vendor Decomp: Next Steps (Meeting topic: networking)"14:52
markmcclainmarun: right I think this is one of the subtle difference in how the underlying infrastructure for the communities functions14:52
mesteryarmax HenryG: You're up14:53
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armaxHenryG put a patch up14:53
armax#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/18726714:53
HenryGI put up an initial draft in devref14:53
armaxthe gist of it is14:53
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armaxwe want to take the core-vendor decomp work to the next phase14:53
mesteryNice! Uplevel the decomp! ;)14:54
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armaxand we’ll be working on the steps as are being defined in that patch14:54
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HenryGOne question I have not addressed is:14:54
armaxso if everything goes according to plan plugin or driver can take place entirely out of tree14:55
HenryGDo we leave a shim, or is it OK to move completely out of Neutron?14:55
armaxHenryG: out entirely14:55
HenryGarmax: OK, I will update the doc with that for people to comment on.14:55
armaxHenryG: a project can be marked as Neutron tented project by filing the governance patch14:55
russellbi'd personally prefer to see things out entirely instead of split up14:55
russellball-in or all-out anyway14:56
marunI agree with that14:56
marunThe shim thing was largely for political reasons14:56
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armaxonce we’re completed with this work, I think it’s sensible to consider M as the cycle where we look at what’s in what’s out and start deprecating14:56
marunWe risked stalling if we tried to impose that last cycle14:56
mesteryrussellb: ++14:56
mesteryAnd now that we have the option of coming into the Neutron stadium14:56
russellbmakes sense14:57
mesteryThe shims make even less sense14:57
armaxmarun: right, the change in governance model somewhat addresses that aspect14:57
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armaxmarun: but we still need to judge the 4 O’s etc14:57
mesteryThe bigger question I have is, for plugins/drivers that have not done anything yet, when do we boot them out of tree.14:57
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armaxmestery: ^^^14:57
marunarmax: agreed. and efforts to provide better discoverability for neutron-related efforts should address some of the concerns around not being in-tree.14:57
armaxsee my comment above14:57
mesteryarmax: Yes, I've been looking at things which are proposed already, backends are coming under the Neutron stadium quite nicely.14:58
mesteryarmax: And even some APIs as well.14:58
russellband i think there's room to do some classification of the things in the neutron tent, to still differentiate who is better a better citizen14:58
russellbcarrot badges14:58
marungamification ftw ;)14:58
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mesteryrussellb: ++14:59
mesterywe can't get rid of gamification no matter how hard we try14:59
mestery20 seconds left14:59
mesteryOK, thanks for joining us today folks!14:59
mesterySee you all next week!14:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun  2 14:59:59 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-06-02-14.01.html15:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-06-02-14.01.txt15:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-06-02-14.01.log.html15:00
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n0ano#startmeeting gantt15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun  2 15:00:19 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'gantt'15:00
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n0anoanyone here to talk about the scheduler?15:00
watanabe_isaomestery, amotoki_ , night night sir. ZZZzzz…15:00
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lxsliI have a clash so won't be listening hard15:01
* n0ano ignore my groans, I think I cracked a rib snorkeling :-(15:01
edleafeyeah, I have a phone call now, too, so I may be slower than usual15:01
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edleafen0ano: ouch15:02
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n0anoedleafe, lxsli NP, I know where all the ARs are going...15:02
n0anoanyway, let's start15:02
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n0ano#topic Vancouver recap15:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Vancouver recap (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:02
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n0anoI hope everyone survied the return trip and we're all back hard at work.15:03
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n0anoI think the main take away I got was that we are pretty much staying the course, cleaning up the sched interfaces and working on the know specs/BPs15:03
PaulMurrayI'm hardly working if that counts15:03
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lxslibadoom tish15:04
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n0anoanyone want to expand upon that?15:04
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bauzascurrently in another discussion about the reqspec in #openstack-nova so feel free to continue :)15:05
n0anobauzas, I just saw that, are you coming to any conclusions in that discusssion?15:05
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bauzasn0ano: not yet :)15:06
n0anono surprise but it's all good.15:06
n0anowe don't have to go into all the gory details here but I want to update my liberty wiki to track all of our specs/BPs, I just got back and I'm dealing with computer issues so I'll bug everyone to update that later.15:07
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edleafen0ano: I posted the BP for the NoValidHost reporting: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/no-valid-host-reporting15:08
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edleafen0ano: The spec should be up later today15:08
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n0anocool, I'll look for it and hopefully comment15:09
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n0anoif nothing else on Vancouver let's move on15:10
n0ano#topic updating concept of resource15:10
*** openstack changes topic to "updating concept of resource (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:10
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n0anoedleafe, I read your email & blog and I think you have some good ideas I just don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water15:10
edleafeI wrote a blog post and then followed it up with the ML post yesterday15:10
n0ano#link http://blog.leafe.com/rethinking-resources/15:11
edleafeA resource in OpenStack is more than a server to be carved up into VPS-like chuncks15:11
n0anowell, you could argue that 100% is a chunk and that would deal with the all or nothing resources15:12
edleafenot really15:12
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edleafewe have lots of things that don't split up on RAM or disk or CPU15:12
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edleafewe shouldn't be considering that as the model for all resources15:13
n0anobut dealing with multiple models could really complicate things and I'd like to be sure there's a definite benefit to doing that15:14
edleafen0ano: that's where a ResourceObject comes in15:14
edleafeIt should encapsulate the way each type of resource is handled15:15
n0anoare you seeing ram as one type of resource object and numa topology as a different type of resource object?15:15
edleafen0ano: no15:15
edleafea resource is something that we need to allocate15:16
edleafethe compute resources that flavors address are the traditional type of resource that openstack pretty much assumes is the *only* type of resource15:16
edleafeas a result, we're cramming other things, such as NUMA and PCI, into the flavor-based design15:17
edleafethat's a hack, IMO15:17
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edleafeAnd if you look ahead to things such as container-based hypervisors (such as LXD), the model totally falls apart15:18
n0anousing extra_specs to define things is arguably a hack but encapsulating everything in a flavor is OK to me, you have to encapsulate this info somehow15:18
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lxsliI'd like to make it a Nova problem not a scheduler problem15:18
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edleafen0ano: then every possible permutation of specs is a distinct flavor15:18
n0anolxsli, I would too but I don't think we can, I think the sched needs to be aware of this info15:19
lxslilet the scheduler just deal with resource requests15:19
lxslin0ano: the API can translate "boot flavor=X" into "claim resources=[...]"15:19
edleafelxsli: yes, but that still requires that we clean up how we think of resources15:20
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n0anowe still need to remember the cloud provider vs. the user, users ask to boot `something` while the provider defines what is available15:21
lxsliedleafe: can you expand on that?15:21
PaulMurrayedleafe I don't think that's disputed is it - isn't that what we are looking to do?15:21
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lxslithe provider also defines what the user is allowed to ask for15:21
edleafePaulMurray: not in the way that I'm  thinkning15:21
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edleafewe're still insisting that "everything is a flavor"15:21
n0anolxsli, that's my poing and that definition is done by flavors right now15:21
lxsliimo flavors are to prevent the user asking for weird-shaped chunks, they're nothing to do with the core job of scheduling15:21
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edleafelxsli: if you move 'flavor' to the API, and leave it in the scheduler, what's the gain?15:22
lxsliedleafe: nope, remove it totally from scheduler15:22
lxsliso scheduler just deals with resources15:22
edleafelxsli: yeah, I covered the weird chunks in my blog post15:22
PaulMurrayedleafe, I think at some point a user wants to say I want an X15:22
edleafePaulMurray: yes15:23
PaulMurrayas opposed to an {a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,... oh did I forget something}15:23
lxsliI'm agreeing with your problems, just suggesting rather than eliminating flavors entirely we shove the concept out to the API15:23
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PaulMurrayso I think we all agree on the resource point15:23
n0anoPaulMurray, +115:23
edleafePaulMurray: but they'll say I want an X with this network config and this NUMA topology and ...15:23
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edleafePaulMurray: and thus the provider will have to offer a flavor for every possible combination15:24
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PaulMurrayedleafe, yes and no15:24
edleafelxsli: no, don't eliminate flavors15:24
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PaulMurrayedleafe, they may chose to support only a certain combination15:24
lxsliif we constrain the scope of flavor code, potentially it becomes pluggable so operators can decide what request validation works for them15:24
PaulMurrayedleafe, but they may allow you to make up combinations15:24
edleafelxsli: just apply them to resources that are divisible (i.e., like VPS instances)15:24
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edleafePaulMurray: anything that the user might possibly pick is a defined flavor15:25
edleafelxsli: flavors would only apply to ResourceObjects that follow the "traditional" computing model15:26
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edleafei.e., things that can be sliced up should have a sane way of limiting the slicing15:26
n0anoedleafe, then how does a user as for, say, a specific SR/IOV device?15:26
n0anos/as for/ask for15:27
edleafen0ano: that's an additional requirement for the request15:27
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edleafeit would be evaluated separately from the flavor constraint15:27
edleafeit would *not* be part of the flavor15:27
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n0anoand how does the provider control what a additional requirements are available15:27
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edleafen0ano: that would go back to lxsli's point of enforcing that at the API level15:28
edleafethat's not a Scheduler decision15:28
lxsliedleafe: so you agree that the scheduler API should not know about flavors? Just resources?15:29
edleafelxsli: a flavor is simply one type of request constraint15:29
n0anowell, it's never really been a sched decision, we're done that implicitly in the definition of the flavors15:29
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edleafen0ano: but look at the mess we have created by trying to jam everything into a flavor15:30
lxslithe scheduler looks at flavors today though, rather than the flavor having been fully unpacked before the request gets to the scheduler15:30
edleafethe cloud technology choices are only going to expand in the future15:30
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n0anoI think i'm beginning to agree with lxsli have nova decompose flavor (or whatever) and only have the scheduler see resource requests15:31
edleafen0ano: yes, that would make things a lot cleaner15:32
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edleafeit would also eliminate the current issue with cells not getting defined flavors replicated to each cell15:32
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edleafesince cells would only get the resource request15:32
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n0anoand would also make the sched less nova centric15:33
edleafeWhat I'd like to get you all thinking about is the notion that there are different types of Resources15:33
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edleafeand each different type can have different request constraints15:34
edleafen0ano: this would also move things to making the scheduler not Nova-centric15:34
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lxsliIn my rewrite of Jay's spec, I'm proposing Integer, NUMA and PCI ResourceTypes each with their own matching and consumption logic15:34
edleafesince other services could define their own resource classes and request constraints15:34
n0anoedleafe, but I still want to allow a user to request a provider defined instance, we just need to expand the definition of a flavor maybe15:35
edleafelxsli: how is an Integer a resource?15:35
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edleafesounds more like a constraint type15:35
lxsliit's not, it's a resourcetype - eg vcpus is an integer resource, so is memory15:35
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edleafelxsli: ah, we're overloading terms15:36
lxsliboth of those are matched (a <= b) and consumed (a -= b) the same15:36
lxsliedleafe: yes naming is hard >.<15:36
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edleafeI was using resource type to mean the type of resource being requested: compute, network, bare metal, etc.15:36
lxsliI'm calling a Resource an amount, with a type, optionally from a ResourcePool (IE a compute host)15:36
edleafeI was calling the things like vcpus a constraint15:37
n0anoedleafe, call yours `class` and we should be good15:37
lxslimaybe if we called compute, network etc rsource cells we could make some heads explode? :)15:37
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n0anolxsli, don't even go there :-)15:38
edleafelxsli: +1  lol15:38
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edleafeno, "resource zones"15:38
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lxslianyway... it sounds like we have broad agreement that flavors aren't needed in scheduler and they make it nova-centric? any volunteers to spec that, edleafe?15:39
n0anoedleafe, back to your classes, note that compute encompasses multiple things, some enumeratable (RAM), some not (NUMA topology), how dos that fit?15:39
edleafePaulMurray: to get back to the provider view, they could say "we offer compute instances in the following sizes: ..."15:39
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edleafePaulMurray: "and you can add these options: ..."15:39
n0anolxsli, me, I'm going to see if I can write a spec on moving flavors out of the scheduler15:39
lxslin0ano: awesome15:39
lxslibtw I was chatting with claudiub about multiple flavours at the summit15:40
n0anolxsli, say that `after` I've written something15:40
edleafen0ano: those different constraints would be handled the way the lxsli was talking about in jaypipe's spec15:40
lxsliit might be quite nice to be able to have "VPS" flavors, "SRIOV" flavors and to be able to pick one of each15:40
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edleafelxsli: yes, that's sort of what I had in mind15:41
edleafedifferent types of resources15:41
edleafealthough the name 'flavor' should DIAFF15:41
n0anotreating impossible combinations of multiple flavors as a user problem?15:41
lxslitreating it as a validation problem15:41
lxslia good start might be "at most one flavor per resource"15:42
n0anostill a user problem, I predict the user will get a very informative `boot request failed'15:42
edleafen0ano: No, they should get back an API validation error15:42
lxsliedleafe: +115:43
lxslithat can easily be very informative as it doesn't have to get copied through multiple services15:43
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edleafelxsli: it could also be customizable middleware that different vendors could set up for their own products15:44
n0anostill a little worried that a user asks for something that he thinks should work and it doesn't but that's probably Ok15:44
lxsliedleafe: +115:44
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bauzasn0ano: since I'm fully uberloaded by the discussion on the chan, could you please ping me when you're at the open topic ?15:44
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n0anobauzas, sure, probably soon15:44
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n0anoedleafe, good discussion, do you want to maybe update your blog with some of the results from today?15:45
edleafen0ano: If they're using the web interface, there isn't any problem. If they're using the command line, they're probably use to deciphering messages15:45
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edleafen0ano: I would prefer that people respond on the ML instead - more eyes than my puny blog :)15:46
edleafeI'll certainly post a reply15:46
edleafeyou all can argue with that15:46
n0anoedleafe, reasonable, a reply to that would be good15:46
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n0anoedleafe, cool15:47
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n0anomoving on...15:47
n0ano#topic opens15:47
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n0anobauzas, ping15:47
lxsliedleafe: I responded and no one replied v.v15:47
n0anolxsli, I intend to reply today (traveling yesterday)15:47
edleafelxsli: I saw it but waited for this meeting15:47
lxsliyay <315:48
edleafen0ano: two things15:48
edleafeone, jaypipes has a standing meeting at this time15:48
edleafehe requested that we move this meeting if possible15:48
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edleafesecond, can we remove the 'gantt' stuff from the meeting topic?15:49
bauzasn0ano: yea15:49
lxsliI can do 1-2 hours later or up to 7 hours earlier15:49
n0anosigh, I can try, finding an open slot that works for everyone can be difficult15:49
bauzasn0ano: so I was about discussing about 2 points, but edleafe hijacked me15:49
bauzasn0ano: doodle15:49
edleafebauzas: you snooze you lose15:49
n0anoedleafe, I don't know why people object to gantt, it's just a name, but sure, I can remove it15:50
edleafen0ano: it has baggage15:50
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lxslin0ano: I find it's best to survey the most busy people first then present options to the less busy people15:50
claudiubso... I did not get to read all the meeting log, but I do have a question, I don't know if it was asked before or not... how can compute nodes report any extra resources they have?15:50
claudiubthat might be needed for any of the extra-flavors that users might need?15:50
claudiube.g. GPU?15:51
n0anolxsli, 7 hrs earlier is problematic for my timezone so I probably won't try that :-)15:51
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lxsliup to :)  guessing later will be what happens15:51
lxsliclaudiub: we need a pluggable resource provider system15:51
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n0anoclaudiub, most of the discussion has been on how to request resources, not on how they are reported15:52
claudiubn0ano: I get that, but having resources reported seems to me like a part of a whole.15:53
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lxslito make the scheduler usable outside Nova, other projects need to be able to supply the appropriate parts of resource tracker15:53
claudiublxsli: are there some details / spec / bp for that?15:53
lxsliclaudiub: I'm working on a spec around resource objects which may touch on it but it's probably a separate spec15:53
n0anoclaudiub, no arguement, that should be part of the resource tracker15:53
edleafen0ano: so we15:54
lxsli5 mins15:54
edleafeso we'll need a RT for any project that need scheduling services15:54
claudiublxsli: can you add me as a reviewer to that spec? I'm interested on how that will be implemented15:55
lxsliif edleafe + claudiub are done, should we let bauzas speak?15:55
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lxsliclaudiub: sure thing!15:55
edleafeor some comparable reporting thing15:55
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claudiubi'm done15:55
claudiubty folks15:55
n0anolxsli, edleafe spoke for bauzas15:55
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lxsliahaa great15:55
edleafewhen has bauzas ever needed permission to speak? :)15:55
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lxsliTrue, true15:55
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edleafen0ano: +1 for a doodle to find a time15:56
bauzasanyway, I didn't really followed that meeting, so I won't say something more than zero :)15:56
edleafen0ano: do you want me to set it up?15:56
n0anoedleafe, sure, that'd be great15:56
* n0ano doesn't do doodle or etherpads, I'm a luddite15:56
edleafe#action edleafe to create doodle for new meeting time15:56
n0anoanyway, any last minute opens?15:57
lxsliwho's coming to midcycle?15:57
n0anolxsli, me for one15:57
* edleafe is15:57
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edleafelxsli: can you make it?15:58
n0anoOK, tnx everyone, we have to close15:58
lxslithanks all15:58
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun  2 15:58:33 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-06-02-15.00.html15:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-06-02-15.00.txt15:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-06-02-15.00.log.html15:58
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bauzasndipanov: lxsli: edleafe: based on my findings, my chances to come at midcycle are close to zero16:02
bauzasndipanov: nvm16:02
bauzasn0ano: ^16:02
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n0anobauzas, ack16:20
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morganfainbergajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, bknudson, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rharwood, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, stevemar, topol, wanghong17:55
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lbragstadmorganfainberg: o/17:55
samueldmqbom dia17:56
samueldmqdavid8hu, oO17:56
* breton greets everyone17:56
morganfainberghows everyone?17:57
lbragstadsamueldmq: bem-vindo17:57
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dstanekmorganfainberg: energized!17:57
morganfainbergdstanek: great to hear17:57
samueldmqlbragstad, oh great, that will be easier to me to carry some discussions in portuguese with you and david8hu next summit o/17:57
lbragstadsamueldmq: as long as I can use translate.google.com :)17:58
samueldmqlbragstad, hehe o/17:58
gyeewhat's cooking?17:58
* topol lbragstad is a total fraud on the foreign lang front17:58
morganfainbergOk lets get this going17:59
samueldmqhaha :)17:59
morganfainberg#startmeeting Keystone17:59
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun  2 17:59:29 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is morganfainberg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:59
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:59
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Keystone)"17:59
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'17:59
morganfainbergWelcome back! First meeting post summit17:59
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marekdVancouver was great!17:59
david8husamueldmq, I will bring my personal translator, google.18:00
bretonmarekd: indeed18:00
samueldmqdavid8hu, haha18:00
morganfainbergso, lets get moving. I'm going to hold on the summit rundown until the end18:00
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morganfainbergi think we all know how the summit went18:00
ayoungL1 is in 4 weeks18:00
morganfainbergwe were (except henrynash) there!18:00
htrutaa little bit late, bom dia as well18:00
morganfainbergand yes L1 is rolling up on us18:01
david8huIt was nice to meet everyone in person.18:01
morganfainberg#topic Liberty-118:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Liberty-1 (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:01
ayoungliberty-1 (Jun 23-25)18:01
ayoung#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Liberty_Release_Schedule18:01
ayoung3 weeks18:01
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morganfainberg#info Liberty-1 is Spec Proposal Freeze, work on specs and review specs. Target is June 23.18:01
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morganfainbergafter L1 - we will need emails for spec proposal freeze exceptions18:02
ayoungI'll start writing them now18:02
morganfainbergayoung: thanks.18:02
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morganfainberg#topic What's going on with auth plugins and client?18:02
*** openstack changes topic to "What's going on with auth plugins and client? (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:02
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morganfainbergbknudson: (and I assume jamielennox...who isn't here)18:02
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ayoung_EeyeoreYour welcome18:02
bknudsony, what's going on?18:02
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bknudsonare we supposed to be merging changes to auth plugins?18:03
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bknudsonor are they all going to a different repo now?18:03
morganfainbergbknudson: auth plugins must be maintained and run as they are within KSC for now18:03
morganfainbergunless they are specifically split out18:03
marekdmorganfainberg: new plugins go to KSA only, right?18:03
gyeethey are part of the newly minted ksa repo right?18:03
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morganfainbergmarekd: keystoneauth is not ready for primetime18:04
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morganfainbergkeystoneauth is being worked on and will become the real-deal soon18:04
bknudsonwe have openstack/python-keystoneclient , openstack/python-keystoneclient-kerberos , openstack/python-keystoneclient-saml2, openstack/keystoneauth repos18:04
morganfainbergbut if you need it sooner, it needs to land in keystoneclient18:04
bretonmorganfainberg: is there a roadmap?18:04
gyeebknudson, you are scaring me18:04
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marekdmorganfainberg: in terms of federation i'd strongly advocate for proper work in ksa.18:04
morganfainbergbreton: i am hoping keystoneauth to be ready by L118:04
bretonmorganfainberg: I would really like to participate, but don't know where to start18:05
bknudsongyee: that's why I'm bringing it up at the meeting since I have no idea what we're supposed to be doing18:05
morganfainbergthen we start working on moving things over18:05
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marekdfederation plugins in KSC are kind of messy, it'd become even more messier with deprecations and backwards compatibility. jamie advised on simply adding fixed version to KSA18:05
morganfainbergbknudson: so, -kerberos and -saml2 is about having system level dependencies18:05
morganfainbergand often platform specific18:05
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marekdmorganfainberg: ++18:05
bknudsonso these are supported repos?18:05
morganfainbergif it's pure python minimal deps i can go in keystoneclient or keystoneauth18:05
bknudsonI don't think we ever picked them up in our product18:06
marekdbknudson: saml2 not yet.18:06
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morganfainbergbknudson: kerberos has been released and is available.18:06
stevemarbknudson, they arent even released yet18:06
marekdbknudson: in fact, i think we will need with it for ksa release.18:06
morganfainbergnot sure how widespread it is.18:06
morganfainbergif at all used18:06
marekdbknudson: which means another project rename (ksc-federation -> ksc-saml2 -> ksa-saml2)18:06
* morganfainberg wishes jamielennox was here18:06
dstanekcan they go away if we start using pbr's new optional dep feature (i don't know much about it)18:06
morganfainbergdstanek: maybe.18:07
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samueldmqmorganfainberg, I guess he got too happy with devstack working with v3 (I saw a message from him saying that)18:07
morganfainbergdstanek: however, the whole optional dep thing is still really poor ux.18:07
morganfainbergin python packages imo18:07
gyeewe are keeping tab on all these repos in a nice readme file somewhere right?18:07
davechenmorganfainberg:  for what's keystoneauth  is split out? this should be dump question?18:07
morganfainberggyee: governance/projects.yaml18:07
morganfainbergmordred: hi18:08
dstanekmorganfainberg: maybe, but so if fighting to find the right package to install all the time18:08
marekddavechen: so services like nova don't need to include ksc18:08
mordredmorganfainberg: I was summoned by mention of pbr18:08
anteayamordred: dstanek was invoking a little known pbr feature18:08
marekdwhereas they only need auth plugins.18:08
morganfainbergmordred: optional dependencies18:08
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mordredyah. I think that's not ready for prime time yet18:08
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morganfainbergdstanek: ^^18:08
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dstanekanteaya: so little known that i only know the name :-)18:08
mordredI believe you're talking about extras and the ability to do things like "pip install ksa[kerberos]"18:08
anteayadstanek: ha ha ha typical pbr18:08
dstanekmordred: yes, exactly18:09
mordredlifeless: ^^ we're not ready for people to start doing that yet, right?18:09
dstanekmordred: it just mimics what distutils/setuptools does right?18:09
bknudsonhow does it know what files are kerberos files?18:09
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morganfainbergmordred: is lifeless awake at this time?18:09
lifelessno, I'm not.18:09
mordredbknudson: more entries in setup.cfg18:09
lifelesssec, scanning for context18:09
morganfainberglifeless: moar coffee then.18:09
lifelessmorganfainberg: nup, I cold turkeyed a couple years back.18:10
morganfainberglifeless: /impressed18:10
ayounglifeless, /me depressed18:10
bknudsonnow he doesn't sleep18:10
dstaneklifeless: the short, short is that we have a packaging fetish and like to have lots of them - was hoping that using pbr's extras we could stop that18:10
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morganfainbergmordred: though the pip install ksa[kerberos] would be nice.18:10
lifelessdstanek: extras is implemented in pbr 1.0.0 and usable18:11
bknudsoncould be python-keystoneclient[auth]18:11
morganfainbergbknudson: no.18:11
marekdso now we are all going to merge all the repos...?18:11
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morganfainbergauth should not depend on keystonelcient at all18:11
dstaneklifeless: cool, thx18:11
lifelessenvironment markers have a small glitch in the setuptools easy_install interactions tchaypo is tracking down, so that isn't quite ready.18:11
lifelessso yeah, foo[bar] is entirely doable now.18:11
lifelesstwo caveats18:12
morganfainbergbknudson: but the kerberos/system specific things probably should be merged down then if this "works"18:12
lifelessfirstly, its a union with foo18:12
lifelessfoo[bar] == foo + foo's extra called bar.18:12
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lifeless(not everyone realises this)18:12
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morganfainbergbknudson: ^ which is why keystoneauth will still be a thing.18:12
lifelesssecondly, we haven't yet taught update.py in global-requirements about syncing into setup.cfg.18:12
dstaneklifeless: can bar map to a list of packages?18:12
lifelessThat is on the cards in the short term, but its a thing to be cognizant of18:13
lifelessdstanek: yes18:13
lifelessdstanek: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/pbr/#extra-requirements18:13
ayoungmorganfainberg, so...kerberos and X509 client auth should probably not be an auth pluging18:13
ayoungbut rather should be some sort of session plugin18:13
ayoungyou don't just want them for auth18:13
morganfainbergayoung: take that up w/ jamielennox :P18:14
ayoungmorganfainberg, I did18:14
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morganfainbergayoung: i don't want to specifically jump into session plugins here18:14
morganfainbergvs. auth plugins18:14
morganfainbergvs other things18:14
ayoungmorganfainberg, it is a repo naming issue18:14
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ayoungwe have been talking about auth plugins, and a big part of the name kludge came from not really understanding where things should live18:15
lifelessyou can do foo[bar,quux] of course, which does what you'd think: unions them all together18:15
morganfainbergbknudson: so i think the answer is: the stuff we split out can be merged back in and dropped *except* keystoneauth will still be a thing to specfically handle auth/session/etc18:15
morganfainbergwithout needing the CRUD interface support of keystoneclient's library18:15
ayoungwe want to split upon dependency lines,18:15
morganfainberg(silly to require crud for auth)18:15
bknudsonso do you want us to -1 everything related to auth plugins since we don't know what's going on?18:15
ayoungmost of the federation auth plugin code is common across the different Fed mechanisms, it is a session difference which determines, not the auth plugin18:15
marekdbknudson: where, -1 in ksc ?18:16
morganfainbergayoung: since jamie isn't here18:16
morganfainberglets loop him in later and resovle this18:16
bknudsonmarekd: yes, in ksc18:16
morganfainbergright now i can't say for sure one way or another what is going on.18:16
bknudsonI haven't been looking at the other ones... don't know if anyone is.18:16
marekdbknudson: okay, then. I agree.18:16
morganfainbergbknudson: i have but lets defer and get jamie in18:16
marekdbknudson: I am doing small refactors in KSA18:17
morganfainbergbknudson: i'd like to drop the other repos. but likely keystoneclient is where things need to go for now.18:17
morganfainberguntil KSA is done.18:17
morganfainbergthen we have to migrate over18:17
gyeesounds like a plan18:17
marekdmorganfainberg: but l1 is roughly 3 weeks. Is it THAT long time?18:17
ayoungmorganfainberg, is ksa just going to be auth plugins?18:17
bknudsonksa includes session18:17
morganfainbergayoung: it holds all the sesson, adapter, discovery code, etc18:17
morganfainbergayoung: the things you'd need to auth against keystone w/o the keystoneclient crud18:18
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morganfainbergayoung: it's very specifically to make keystoneclient the crud interface and not be required for everything18:18
morganfainbergjust like you don't need novaclient to use cinderclient18:18
bretonfolks, is there a description of what ksa will be? A spec or something?18:18
samueldmqmorganfainberg, removing auth from ksclient ?18:18
morganfainbergsamueldmq: yes. it is splitting the concerns18:19
samueldmqmorganfainberg, well, at least making something in charge of "just" auth18:19
samueldmqmorganfainberg, got it, thanks18:19
samueldmqmorganfainberg, auth crud api <-  :(18:19
bknudsonI think it's a good idea to split out ksa ... but it's complicating things until it's ready.18:19
samueldmqmorganfainberg, making people get confused18:19
marekdmorganfainberg: let me repeat the question - there are chances (reasonably big) that ksa will be released around l1 which is June 23rd, right?18:19
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morganfainbergmarekd: i want that to be the case18:20
morganfainbergmarekd: but... i cannot answer that w/o jamielennox18:20
morganfainbergwho is not here18:20
bknudsonyou want people to work on ksa so we can get it done?18:20
morganfainbergwhich is why we need to defer18:20
marekdmorganfainberg: I am asking, cause in some cases it's better to star with fresh ksa without backwards compatibility spaghetti code and wait that 3 weeks.18:20
anteayaliberty1 is june 23: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Liberty_Release_Schedule18:20
morganfainbergso i want this to be the case18:21
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morganfainbergbut again, i repeat, i cannot answer without jamielennox at the moment18:21
marekdanteya: so, 3 weeks or i am missing something....18:21
marekdmorganfainberg: I understand that!18:21
morganfainbergso l1 is the target18:21
morganfainbergit may not happen in 3wks18:21
marekdmorganfainberg: that satisfies me18:21
marekdlet's move on.18:22
morganfainbergit may be much longer18:22
morganfainbergok moving on18:22
morganfainberg#action Followup with Jamie Lennox about Keystoneauth and "ready" timetables18:22
morganfainberg#topic Keystone IdP config API - an API to configure Keystone IdPs instead of using the config file18:22
*** openstack changes topic to "Keystone IdP config API - an API to configure Keystone IdPs instead of using the config file (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:22
morganfainbergrodrigods, gabriel-bezerra o/18:23
stevemarohhh thats a good one18:23
henrynash(this sounds awfully familiar)18:23
bknudsonwe should be moving away from config file in general if we can.18:23
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gabriel-bezerrathis is a pain gyee talked about in the Federated Demo Deep Dive session in the summit18:23
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gabriel-bezerra#link https://youtu.be/dl010R-bZHw?t=17m15s18:23
gyeeonly problem is we need shibboleth and mellon to be able to dynamically pull the config18:23
dstanekgabriel-bezerra: data stored in a database?18:24
marekdare we talking SP or IDP ?18:24
ayoungwe can work on getting support into mellon18:24
gabriel-bezerraso, we (rodrigods) would like to do that: specs and code18:24
gyeemarekd, adding a new IdP from SP side18:24
ayoungwe had already started discussions with out team's mellon maintainer18:25
gabriel-bezerrait's about idp18:25
marekdgabriel-bezerra: explain please18:25
ayoungthere is some prior-art, like mod_authz_mysql18:25
gabriel-bezerra#link http://rodrigods.com/it-is-time-to-play-with-keystone-to-keystone-federation-in-kilo/18:25
gabriel-bezerraaccording to him, it's about putting the part in the 'Keysonte as an IdP' section in the database18:25
marekdgabriel-bezerra: because i think you are talking 2 thing now.18:26
henrynashlet’s also learn from the experience we had doing the domain config management API (see: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/187249/)18:26
gyeemarekd, right now, to add a new IdP from SP, one needs to write chef/puppet/ansible/your-favorite-deploy-script18:26
ayoungPlease make sure that whatever approach you take is not Keystone specific.  If Keystone needs, any SAML consumer will need it18:26
marekdgyee: so it's SP, not IdP.18:26
gyeemarekd, right, introducing new IdP from SP18:27
ayoungmarekd, I think it needs to be any of the above18:27
ayoungnew IdP, new SP18:27
henrynashe.g. issues doing crud of “config options” in a multi-process keystone18:27
ayounghenrynash, +++++18:27
gabriel-bezerrahenrynash: yes, thanks for the reference18:27
dstanekhenrynash: yes, that is why i asked about a database...18:27
bknudsonwe've had issues with doing crud of any objects in multi-process18:27
henrynashbknudson: so true18:28
marekdayoung: in K2K we have API for that, ADFS also supports it in the runtime. I think guys simply want to do SP side.18:28
dstanekat summit i heard someone talking about it writing to a config file and that's just going to cause problems18:28
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marekdi don't fully understand how keystone should help this, as it's more Apache thing.18:28
ayoungmarekd, yeah, we could extract it compleetly out of the Keystone code base if we had an external discovery service, but that is not how we are headed.18:28
ayoungWe put the "discover" dropdown right there on the Horizon login page18:29
gsilvisdstanek: that might have been me.  it's not actually tenable, but we might end up doing it anyways to get a demo working18:29
dstanekmarekd: that's why we've started talking about fixing shib a mellon18:29
ayoungdstanek, ++18:29
marekddstanek: yes.18:29
marekdpretty intersting thing, would be happy to code some C18:29
gyeethis is not about discovery, its about cleanly draw a line between "administration" and "configuration"18:29
dstanekgsilvis: demo would be good, but we shouldn't merge it18:29
gabriel-bezerragyee: ++18:29
gsilvisdstanek: agree18:29
gyeeadministration should be all APIs18:30
morganfainbergso across the board yes.18:30
dolphmgyee: ++18:30
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geoffarnold_We'll need it for Mercador, of course18:30
morganfainberghowever, .... if the answer is write files to disk that (config), i am against keystone growing into a CMS too18:30
gyeegeoffarnold, I haven't seen any code in mercador yet18:30
henrynashmorganfainberg: ++18:30
stevemargyee, patience my friend18:31
marekdgabriel-bezerra: so, what's your idea?18:31
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marekdhow do you want to solve this?18:31
geoffarnold_there isn't any - empty repos right now while we get it from github to stackforge18:31
morganfainbergmarekd: i think we need to talk to shib folks18:31
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marekdmorganfainberg: ++18:31
morganfainbergand RH can take on mod_mellon18:31
marekdmorganfainberg: i see the desire for that, but I think keystone should have nothing to do with that...18:31
gabriel-bezerrawell, I'll take these points to rodrigods and we can have more details in what we should be doing.18:31
gyeemarekd, if mellon can pull the config dynamically from (say) an endpoint, we should have a good solution there18:31
morganfainbergthis is not a keystone "thing"18:32
marekdmorganfainberg: all in all, keystone is protocol agnostic, right?18:32
marekdmorganfainberg: exactly.18:32
morganfainbergit's a "keystone could leverage something behind it"18:32
gyeeacceptable anyway18:32
dstanekmaybe we should make sure that shib and mellon can be similar enough not to cause compat problems18:32
morganfainbergbut it would be generic18:32
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morganfainbergsince neither can do this today18:32
* topol suprised no one mentioned zookeeper yet18:32
morganfainbergtopol: shhhhhhhh ;)18:32
gabriel-bezerraand we'd just like to let you guys know we'd like to do it.18:33
marekdlet's use zookeeper and Cassandra!18:33
dolphmtopol: nevermind the elephants18:33
marekdtopol: ^^ there you are!18:33
jsavakelastic search backend to keystone!18:33
morganfainbergsince neither are able to take this config from non-file sources at the moment18:33
morganfainbergwe have to defer this18:33
dstanektopol: zookeeper brings death and destruction wherever it goes18:33
morganfainbergthere is not a lot we can do until the dependencies we rely on can receive this.18:33
ayoungI think the right solution is along the lines of ADFS:  make it someone elses problem, single discovery service.  Ipsilon for us.18:33
gyeewhile we are at it, store policies in zookeeper :)18:34
morganfainbergso, yes. we should, we should reach out and ask the projects what we can do to help. we have not much else to do in Keystone18:34
marekddstanek: what are the technologies that don't bring death? redis does, mongo does, zookeeper does....:)18:34
geoffarnold_i'd love to have an oslo-programmable-config service to lean on, but....18:34
bknudsonkeep your PKI certs in zookeeper18:34
morganfainbergwhoa.. ok ok18:34
gabriel-bezerramorganfainberg, ayoung: I see.18:34
morganfainbergenough we're getting punchy moving on18:34
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gabriel-bezerrathanks for the feedback18:34
dstanekmarekd: redis has been good to me :-)18:34
gyeemorganfainberg, its turning into a zoo here18:35
marekddstanek: ough, sorry, thought i had heard some bad thing about redis from your mouth...:P18:35
morganfainberggabriel-bezerra: marekd ayoung: please follow up with the respective projects (shib, etc) and see what you can do18:35
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morganfainbergit is out of scope of keystone though.18:35
marekdmorganfainberg: ++18:35
morganfainberg#topic No one uses keystonemiddleware's memcache_pool18:35
*** openstack changes topic to "No one uses keystonemiddleware's memcache_pool (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:35
morganfainbergbreton: o/18:35
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bretonthere is review to ksm https://review.openstack.org/#/c/171264/18:35
bretonit fixes a critical problem in memcache pool backend of keystonemiddleware18:35
bretonit turns out, that the problem is there since the memcache pool inclusion, since original patch18:35
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morganfainbergi'm wondering if it was downstream fixed18:36
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morganfainberghonestly and not contributed for the few folks who have used it18:36
morganfainbergit is not commonly used thats for sure18:36
bretonwe in Mirantis use memcache_pool in keystone, but not in ksm18:36
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bknudsonstill no unit tests18:36
bretonthe code there is old an not maintained. We did some fixes to memcache pool in keystone, but not in ksm.18:36
bretondoes anybody even use it?18:36
morganfainbergbknudson breton: I'm fine with dropping it.18:36
morganfainbergno unit tests, no bug reports.18:36
bknudsonthere's no unit tests for the fix... I don't know about the rest of it18:37
ayoungdrop it, see who screams18:37
morganfainbergwe still need to move away from python-memcache but i looked at the overlap with it and pymemcache, pymemcache doesn't support multiple servers but out of the box supports pools18:37
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bretonI mostly wanted to hear from someone who uses it. It seems no one here does.18:38
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morganfainbergbreton: based on thread.local + eventlet, everyone should be using it18:38
dstanekmorganfainberg: doesn't support hashing to different memcached instances?18:38
morganfainbergdstanek: nope18:38
morganfainbergdstanek: cannot connect to multiple instances at all18:38
morganfainbergdstanek: has everything else though :(18:38
dstanekmorganfainberg: that's useless18:38
bretonmorganfainberg: well, no. A lot of stuff runs eventlet in MOS and we don't use it18:39
bretonMirantis Openstack, our distro18:39
morganfainbergbreton: this is used in lots of services and results in potential DOS - hence the thread.local fix of using the pool18:39
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bretonthen why there are no bug reports?18:40
morganfainbergmy guess is everyone blames another part of openstack when they get hit by FD/socket exaughstion / slowness because of eventlet18:40
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morganfainbergbreton: because it is an opt-in. most people use in-process dict caching18:40
morganfainbergwith memorycache18:40
morganfainbergbut some larget deployments use memcache18:40
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bretonyep. And don't use memcache_pool.18:40
morganfainbergand those *should* use the pool.18:40
morganfainbergbut again, is opt in18:40
morganfainbergmy guess is they don't know the issue18:41
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morganfainbergand blame something else when they are slow due to eventlet + memcache thread.local18:41
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bretonturn on memcache_pool -> ksm doesn't work18:41
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morganfainbergbreton: since no one realizes the source of the problem, they don't look at the solution18:41
morganfainbergbreton: and therefore no one uses it18:41
ayoungkill it18:42
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morganfainberganyway moving on18:42
bretonmorganfainberg: oh, ok.18:42
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morganfainbergpropose a drop of the pool from KSM18:42
bknudsonif people are willing to maintain it then let's keep it18:42
bknudsonif the only problem is a couple of ,s that should be a reason to drop it18:42
morganfainbergwe can reachout to the ML for support/users before we approve the drop18:42
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samueldmqmorganfainberg, +18:42
morganfainbergbknudson: bit rotting code with no eyes and no support isn't worth carrying18:43
bknudsonI agree18:43
ayoung17 minutes left18:43
morganfainbergbknudson: so lets reach out to the MLs18:43
bretonyep, lets move on18:43
dstanekif this the exact same code that's in keystone?18:43
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bretondstanek: no18:43
morganfainbergdstanek: sortofish18:43
ayoungnext topic is mine, not bretons18:43
morganfainberganyway.. next18:43
morganfainberg#topic Dynamic Policy Update18:43
*** openstack changes topic to "Dynamic Policy Update (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:43
morganfainbergayoung: o/18:43
ayoungOK...so...mega load of specs and a few code changes, too18:43
ayoungusing trello to monitor:18:44
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morganfainbergayoung:  and subteam meeting wouldn't be a bad idea18:44
morganfainbergyou could pull in outside of keystone resources as needed that way18:44
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ayoungis anyone besides me , david8hu and samueldmq going to actually be working on this?18:44
ayoungmorganfainberg, I was going to ask if a subteam meeting was required here.18:44
david8huayoung, yes I am.18:44
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morganfainbergnot required18:44
gyeeayoung, I have a ksm patch to enforce something18:44
davechenayoung: +118:44
morganfainbergmight be worth while.18:44
gyeeayoung, yeh, endpoint constraints18:45
david8huayoung, maybe just 3 of us? :)18:45
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morganfainbergayoung: i'd reach out on the ML see if anyone else is joining in18:45
samueldmqgyee, need to talk to you about that post-meeting .. (endpoint binding)18:45
geoffarnold_as long as we can all track the Trello18:45
morganfainbergif no one else is, 3 people hardly justifies a subteam meeting18:45
samueldmqmorganfainberg, ++ so we can get people from other porjetcs18:45
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samueldmqmorganfainberg, nova guys look to be interested18:45
morganfainbergsamueldmq: yeah.18:45
ayoungthere is a new card on trello for setup subteam meeting.  Provide input on that card for when18:45
morganfainberg#action ayoung to look into subteam meeting for policy18:46
ayoungmorganfainberg, one thing that is importnatn it the policy DB18:46
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morganfainberg#link https://trello.com/b/260v4Gs7/dynamic-policy18:46
ayoungwe've nicknamed it Papai18:46
marekdIoram's work?18:46
ayoungPAP==Policy Administration Point18:46
samueldmqayoung, o/18:46
ayoungmarekd, yes18:46
gyeePapai the Sailor man?18:46
ayoungthere are some disconnects between their approach and how Keystone names things, but I think they are managemeable18:46
ayoungneed to figure out how to sync between the two, though18:47
samueldmqgyee, haah18:47
morganfainbergwe need to keep moving18:47
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ayoungso, for example, if we do hierarchical roles, how do we make a change in Keystone, that shows up in Papai, and then get the resulting policy distributed out of Keystone...or do we make PAPAI a separate service in the SC?18:47
samueldmqayoung, yeah we need to decide whether we need a generic policy storage or not, we can revisit that later18:48
marekdayoung: pub-sub like service?18:48
ayoungso the big question for Keystone team is are we willing to accept Papai as a separate server under our umbrellla18:48
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samueldmqayoung, I think keystone should own the database, as it offers the api18:48
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ayoungsamueldmq, I don't think we can avoid answering that too long18:48
bknudsonaccording to the big tent model the question should be is papai willing to work as an openstack project18:49
morganfainbergbknudson: ++18:49
ayoungOnce they get the code posted, I'll set up a public demo so we can beat on it, and see what the delat is between what they've exposed and what we need from Keystone18:49
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ayoungbknudson, they have already said that they are18:49
bknudsonthen I assume the tc will accept it as an openstack project18:50
ayoungthe real question is does it make sense to keep it separate.  I am leaning toward yes18:50
morganfainbergthen i don't think it's a question of it being Keystone or not Keystone, i think it's a question of it being OpenStack and something Keystone can use18:50
ayoungmorganfainberg, it would be under our team's program, though18:50
samueldmqI still thing that should be a keystone thing18:50
morganfainbergayoung: there are no programs18:50
ayoungessentially, I could see it as a split out of the policy service from the rest of Keystone18:50
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ayoungright now,  the KC code looks for that in the identity service_type18:51
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morganfainbergayoung: this is a bigger conversation than we can have right now18:51
morganfainberglets take this to -keystone and specs18:51
morganfainbergafter the meeting18:51
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lbragstad~ 9 minutes left18:51
gyeewatch out them congress people18:51
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bknudsonmaybe we need a parallel to the bug tent guidelines, which is what makes a keystone project18:51
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morganfainbergbknudson: ++18:51
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bknudsonbig tent, not bug tent18:51
ayoungbknudson, Keystone is already a Bug Tent18:52
gyeebknudson, lmao18:52
morganfainbergbknudson: mind taking a crack at a starting place for that with papai in mind?18:52
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morganfainbergnot saying it should be under keystone or not, just that it is where we start evaluating18:52
bknudsonI could look into it.18:52
ayoungI'll set up a subteam meeting, then18:52
morganfainbergbknudson: thanks18:52
ayoungand we can discuss that18:52
morganfainbergok next topic18:52
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morganfainberg#topic Project scoped token by name in Reseller18:52
*** openstack changes topic to "Project scoped token by name in Reseller (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:52
ayoungfloor is yours18:52
htrutaok, so... in reseller, we need to know how to get a project scoped token by name18:53
ayoungdomain + name18:53
htrutawe may have A being an is_domain project, with a project hierarchy B -> C -> A, which means that requesting a project scoped token to A, we don't know which A project we're talking about18:53
morganfainbergayoung: ++18:53
ayoungand...we need to make hierarchical naming work18:53
ayoungso it is more than a 2 level hierarchy18:53
ayoungdomain should be the "local root"18:53
htrutaI've sent an email with two proposals and was hoping we could have more time to discuss it here :/18:53
ayoungbut if we had dom1.p1.p2  versus dom1.p3.p2  we should be able to have both18:54
morganfainbergyou need to use the namespace like you do today18:54
morganfainbergin HMT the namespace is the hierarchy though18:54
gyeemorganfainberg, would it be a UX issue if we have a deep tree?18:54
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morganfainberggyee: not much way around it18:54
htrutaayoung: the issue is if we wanted to have a non-domain project called dom118:55
morganfainbergheirarchical things cause UX headaches18:55
henrynashhtruta: so what was wrong in inclueing the the “is_domain” flag as part of the token rquest?18:55
davechenayoung: seem like parts of spec of dynamic policy is still WIP. we need figure out some solution for bunches of comments in those spec,then we can start coding process.18:55
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samueldmqmorganfainberg, ++18:55
morganfainberghtruta: you use dom1.<project named dom1>18:55
samueldmqmorganfainberg, experienced myself in horizon18:55
htrutahenrynash: I don't remember why, but morganfainberg said we could not do that18:55
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morganfainbergyou don't get to say "i want a domain scoped token for dom x" because domains are also heirarchical18:56
htrutamorganfainberg: can we have "." in project names?18:56
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morganfainberghtruta: we need to solve the reserved character issue18:56
morganfainbergfor delimiters18:56
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morganfainbergunfortunately we don't have time today18:56
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htrutamorganfainberg: ok.18:56
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morganfainbergwe have allowed all characters so we have effectively caused ourselves a headache18:56
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htrutaI was not considering this delimiter point18:57
morganfainberglets solve the delimiter issue for the heirarcy18:57
geoffarnold_hurts how about a wiki page on this topic?18:57
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morganfainbergthen the answer for this becomes easy18:57
morganfainbergmaybe the heirarchy is always a list.18:57
geoffarnold_(spelling correction!)18:57
htrutamorganfainberg: cool. so, you could answer my email in openstack-dev ML?18:57
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morganfainbergwill response18:57
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morganfainberglast topic18:57
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morganfainbergwill make this fast18:57
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morganfainberg#topic Shall we pull Federation Mapping Engine out of Keystone and make it separate library?18:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Shall we pull Federation Mapping Engine out of Keystone and make it separate library? (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:57
henrynashmorgangainberg, htruta: not yet confinced that is_domain is not the answer….I think the only time you get multiple clashing names is between a projiect and it’s owning domain18:57
morganfainbergmarekd: stevemar: sorry for short window18:57
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morganfainberghenrynash: i am very convinced that it is not the answer18:58
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marekdThere was an idea do for pullling our Mappingengine into separate library18:58
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morganfainberghenrynash: will explain later18:58
morganfainbergpost meeting18:58
htrutahenrynash: we can talk in openstack-keystone later18:58
bknudsonI haven't looked at it lately, is the mapping engine "API" clean?18:58
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gyeeactually, works well with oslo.policy18:58
gyeethey are sorta similar18:58
morganfainbergbknudson: i don't see how anyone but keystone is going to use the code18:58
marekdthis could help us building a simple wrapper for testing mapping rules locally - you give mapping rules, input (credentials,) and see what it the output (user_id, group_ids).18:58
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morganfainbergi'm not seeing a benefit to it being split out *except* for a CLI tool to do a "validation"18:59
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morganfainbergwhich, i'm not convinced is a huge win (you could just install keystone)18:59
dstanekvalidation could be done via api it we were so inclined18:59
marekdwe can either have a separate library, and the wrapper - easy to install, or make a CLI tool in the keystone: drawback, one would need to install whole keystone locally to check out the mapping rules.18:59
morganfainberg slash-use keystone18:59
morganfainbergdstanek: ++18:59
marekdmorganfainberg: i understand this.18:59
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dstanekmarekd: what is the difference between installing keystone and the new tools?19:00
dstanekmarekd: number of deps i mean19:00
morganfainbergwe're at time. we need to continue this in -keystone19:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun  2 19:00:31 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-06-02-17.59.html19:00
morganfainberg -infra, all yours19:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-06-02-17.59.txt19:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-06-02-17.59.log.html19:00
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jeblairmorganfainberg: thanks keystone!19:00
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jeblair#startmeeting infra19:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun  2 19:01:12 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
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*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:01
jeblair#link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:01
jeblair#link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-05-26-19.02.html19:01
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jeblaireverybody gets a 'line said' in the meeting today! :)19:02
anteayaI find myself going to the meetings wikipage to get the history to find links to meeting agendas19:02
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anteayajust as a data point to file for later19:02
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anteayajeblair: one for everybody19:02
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jeblair#topic Announcements19:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
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jheskethyep, job done, back to bed ;-)19:02
anteayajhesketh: ha ha ha19:02
jeblair#link http://docs.openstack.org/infra/system-config/project.html#teams19:02
jeblairthe process changes we talked about last week are in place, so this meeting structure has changed accordingly19:02
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jeblairwe'll have a new section where we announce specs that are ready for the council to vote on19:03
jeblairalso, to many of you, welcome to the infrastructure council!  i'm not sure anyone but gerrit knows who you are :)19:03
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fungii have scripts that know ;)19:03
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* AJaeger would be suprised if fungi wouldn't have ;)19:03
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jeblairany questions or comments on this? or shall we go try it out?19:04
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fungilet's get this party started19:04
AJaegeryes, let's give it a try...19:04
pabelangertrial by fire!19:04
jheskethjeblair: might be we worth linking who is on the council if that's around somewhere?19:04
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fungijhesketh: i'll get a link together in a bit. i think i can do it with a single gerrit api call19:05
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jeblairooh, neat19:05
jeblairit's implemented as a gerrit group with about 100 member-groups (some of which have their own groups)19:05
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AJaegerjeblair: yeah https://review.openstack.org/#/admin/groups/925,members looks impressive19:05
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jeblairi had to write a script (which is in review; failing pep8 i think) to create it19:06
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jeblair#topic Actions from last meeting19:06
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jeblairmordred write a spec to move infra bugs to maniphest19:06
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jeblairmordred said he might not make the meeting today, but this is in progress19:06
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jeblairhe did push up the shade spec which is great19:07
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jeblairhopefully that one will make the agenda next week19:07
jeblair#action mordred write a spec to move infra bugs to maniphest19:07
jeblairjeblair write infra-cloud spec with SpamapS19:07
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jeblairis done19:07
jeblairand there's one more action item we'll talk about later in the meeting19:07
jeblair#topic Specs approval19:07
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jeblairwhen specs are ready for final voting by the infra council, add them to the agenda in this section and we will announce them here19:07
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jeblairwe can discuss them a little as needed, but mostly this is to serve as notice that people should vote on them19:08
jeblairi was thinking we would start with a ~48 hour voting period19:08
jeblairhow does that sound?19:08
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nibalizeri like that19:08
pleia2sounds good19:08
anteayawhat are you looking for in terms of votes?19:08
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anteayahow many to move ahead?19:08
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jeblairanteaya: simple majority?19:09
jeblairand if we think it's not working out, we'll change it19:09
anteayahow big is the council?19:09
jeblairunknown :)19:09
anteayais majority 51% or better19:09
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jeblairlet's go with "more positive than negative votes"19:09
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anteayaso 2 positive and 1 negative is a merge?19:10
anteayaor mergable?19:10
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jeblairif that's all that can be bothered to vote within 48 hours, sure19:10
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jheskethvotes can be added before the 48 hours is open yeah?19:10
jeblairjhesketh: i don't see why not19:11
anteayaso window for voting set in the meeting, more positive than negative and the spec merges19:11
nibalizerjeblair: if someone wants to abstain from voting on a partictulr spec, how do you want them to do that, +0?19:11
jheskethie, we've reviewed it earlier or saw it was in the agenda ahead of time and added a vote19:11
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anteayanibalizer: yes I 0 vote is abstain19:11
anteayaa 0 vote19:11
pleia2yeah, it's noted in the interface19:11
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pleia2webui anyway :)19:11
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jeblairyou can also leave a differing code-review vote.  i'm not entirely sure what that means in all circumstances, but we might find it useful.  you might -1 and +0 for some really good reason.19:12
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jeblair#topic Specs approval: Infra-cloud (jeblair, SpamapS)19:13
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zaropleia2: does it really say '0 abstain'?19:13
jeblair#link infra cloud spec https://review.openstack.org/18696019:13
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pleia2zaro: yes19:13
jeblair#info voting on https://review.openstack.org/186960 open until 2015-06-04 19:00 UTC19:13
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jeblairwe've talked about this for a while, and it's worth noting that the technical decisions will be made over in system-config, so be sure to participate there if you have opinions on openstack deployment choices19:14
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jeblairbut this covers the process and overall effort19:14
asselin_can we add this one too? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/135170/19:14
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jeblairasselin_: let's do it next week19:15
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AJaegerasselin_: please add to the agenda for next week19:15
asselin_will do, thanks19:15
krtaylorthanks asselin_19:15
jeblair#topic Specs approval: Host OpenStack Apps Catalog Service (docaedo, fungi)19:16
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jeblair#link apps.o.o spec https://review.openstack.org/18764619:16
jeblair#link apps.o.o topic https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:apps-site,n,z19:16
fungithere's this apps site19:16
fungiand we should host it19:16
* fungi wins at tl;dr19:16
* pleia2 nods19:16
fungiany... questions?19:17
AJaegerfungi: if the specs is as easy to understand, you have my +1 vote ;)19:17
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jeblairand i think this is already in progress19:17
fungiit is19:17
fungithe review topic already has associated changes awaiting review19:17
jheskethnoting that the spec was uploaded today, should there be a minimum review time before it is voted on?19:17
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jheskethsince it also (unless I missed it) wasn't in the agenda for very long as a heads up19:18
fungiperhaps, yes. i suggest a minimum review time of at least 0 seconds19:18
fungiwe're not deciding on it in this meeting19:18
fungijust announcing that it's ready for review/council vote19:18
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jeblairyeah, i think we'll want to get to the point where things are on the agenda longer than "immediately before the meeting", but we're also sort of catching up current efforts to the new process19:19
jheskethisn't announcing it is ready for vote putting it in a 48 hour window19:19
jeblairand in this case, i think with the summit discussion and key participants agreeing on the current spec, it's okay for this one19:19
fungialso it's sort of a rush job19:19
jeblairjhesketh: yes19:19
jheskethyep, sure, I don't think this is an issue, just pointing out that if somebody were away for 2 days it'd be easy to miss a spec like this19:20
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jeblairyeah, we'll get better in the future; if there isn't an objection for this particular instance, i'd say we should go ahead with the vote19:20
fungisome decisions were made, for better or for worse, and this is a "bug" we need to correct as soon as possible, before it becomes a major pr issue19:20
jheskethbut that's not going to be common and objections can be given after it is merged19:20
jeblairwell, ideally we'd get objections before it's merged19:21
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jheskethI meant worst case19:22
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jeblairyeah, if something looks like it's going to go off the rails, let's bring it up in this meeting (we can choose to defer voting), or -1 council vote it with a suggestion for more revising, or infra-cores can veto it on that basis too, and we'll get the process back on track19:23
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jeblairthe goal is to get all the participants on the same page, so we should work toward that :)19:24
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jeblairi'm glad i rushed something on the agenda, that's useful :)19:24
jheskethsounds good :-)19:24
jeblair#info voting on https://review.openstack.org/187646 open until 2015-06-04 19:00 UTC19:24
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts19:24
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jeblairreminder that this section is by prior request on the agenda only, so i'll skip efforts that didn't have something in the agenda19:25
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Downstream Puppet)19:25
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asselin_Hi, I would like to propose a virtual sprint19:25
jeblair#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/VirtualSprints#Schedule_of_Upcoming_OpenStack_Virtual_Sprints19:25
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asselin_that was very effective last time, and I think the initiative would benefit from doing this19:26
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asselin_I'd like to schedule this after L1 is done...so early L2 if there's enough people avaiable / not on vacation19:26
fungiasselin_: what goal do you have in mind for the common ci solution sprint?19:27
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fungijust work toward implementation of teh spec and any oassociated work items?19:27
asselin_fungi, yes19:27
yolandaasselin, ++19:27
jeblairmaybe we could identify one or more modules to complete?  possibly identify one that we might be able to move openstack-infra to using?19:27
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jeblairs/modules/classes/ you know what i mean... maybe 'compenents'.19:28
asselin_I'd like to get nodepool, zuul, and jenkins done19:28
nibalizerya moving -infra to consuming openstackci would be huge19:28
anteayaasselin_: setting priorties would help19:28
fungii like having achievable or measurable goals for a sprint. if completion of the entire spec is doable within the sprint, then seems fine as a goal. otherwise would be great to see it scoped more clearly19:28
asselin_the alternative is to keep doing as we are19:29
nibalizerI'm in for this, though i think the parallelism here is much lower than the modules split sprint19:29
anteayaasselin_: so folks can focus on one and then move to the next19:29
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asselin_anteaya, that's another good approach. We can target e.g. 1 module per week and focus on that19:29
anteayaasselin_: sorry no I meant for the sprint19:30
anteayaI support the sprint19:30
nibalizerfor i in ls system-config/modules/openstack_project/*; do (move stuff into either the correct module or to openstackci; move infra to consume that); done19:30
anteayabut people need you to make a decision, however arbitrary it may feel19:30
anteayaasselin_: so select a time and select 3 modules (you did already) and prioritize them19:31
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anteayaasselin_: then people can take action19:31
anteayaasselin_: until you make a decision, people will just keep giving you suggestions19:31
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asselin_anteaya, I am asking for peoples opinions19:32
nibalizersprinting is good i think19:32
yolandaasselin, i think that these modules are the ones that need attention19:32
anteayaasselin_: so far I'm hearing when you decide on dates for a sprint, people will show up19:32
yolandai'm ok to have an sprint for that19:32
nibalizera sprint like atmosphere is the best way to accomplish the 'pivot' needed to get infra using openstackci I think19:32
pabelangerI would think nodepool would be the first to break out of the list, limited dependencies19:32
nibalizerthe slow way of doing that will take eons and introduce risk19:32
asselin_ok, so yolanda and nibalizer are in for sprint. What about infra cores?19:32
yolandapabelanger, i started work on nodepool19:32
* zaro has no opinion just willing to help19:32
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yolandai'm trying to find gaps during the week to continue with that19:33
anteayaasselin_: I support the sprint, my attendance depends on dates selected, and don't optimize for me19:33
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fungiwe have it designated as a priority effort, so i'm in favor of getting it done however we can to free up bandwidth for other priorities19:33
jeblairi'm happy to help19:33
pleia2I can participate19:33
asselin_fungi I think is in as long as there is clear measurable scope. We can do that.19:33
pabelangeryolanda, Ya, seen your review.  Was going to comment on it about allow a template or content to just be passed, over individual elements.  But, I'm not against what you started19:34
nibalizerour testing is still 'in progress' so we should make sure that we leave ample time between now and the date of the sprint to get our framework for pupept testing locked in19:34
nibalizerlocked down? set up? established?19:34
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jeblairnibalizer: that will help tremendously19:34
yolandapabelanger, i got some feedback from jeblair, asselin, so i'm going to refactor that a bit19:34
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asselin_nibalizer, you think you can get that done by L1?19:34
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asselin_Libery schedule is her: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Liberty_Release_Schedule19:35
nibalizerasselin_: i dont know when L1 is19:35
asselin_#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Liberty_Release_Schedule19:35
jeblair(i don't normally thing much about milestone dates, they don't really affect us too much)19:35
asselin_June 25th19:35
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yolandai'm on holiday since 29th june, i hope it's scheduled before that...19:36
asselin_jeblair, I'm avoiding the sprint bfore L1 b/c I assume many people are busy then19:36
crinkleis puppet functional testing included as part of downstream-puppet? clarkb's spec doesn't have a decision yet so I don't know if it's appropriate to try to lock down testing https://review.openstack.org/#/c/17888719:36
nibalizercrinkle: thats fair...19:36
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fungimilestone dates are only a concern insofar as if they indicate a huge uptick in dev activity for openstack projects on the whole then we want to strive to keep things more stable during those windowsa19:36
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asselin_fungi, +119:37
nibalizerclarks spec was sortof subsumed by the discussion at the design summit, as i understand it19:37
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nibalizerso we didn't resolve or land clarks spec, but we did make a decision on a path forward19:37
asselin_ihmo we can do this in parallel19:37
jeblairi think we decided to head towards beaker-rspec, we should update clark's spec to reflect that19:37
nibalizerthen when we sprinted at the summit we (or I and some others) focused on testing using teh decision we made19:37
crinklejeblair: ++19:38
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asselin_so how about June 29 and 30?19:38
nibalizerbut I do think we can get beaker-rspec in place before the 'late june' sprint that asselin_ is suggesting19:38
jeblairtuesdays are bad for me :)19:39
pabelangerasselin, Close to Canada and USA holidays19:39
nibalizeri also think testing is one of the ways virtual sprints prevent us from hurting ourselves19:39
pabelangerCanada day is July 1st19:39
yolanda29 and 30 don't work for me, but i'll leave my work prepared for you to take it19:39
fungii'm closing on a house on june 30 so will likely not be around for that timeframe, but don't plan around me19:39
asselin_ok July 8 & 9?19:39
pabelangerya, better here19:39
asselin_I will create a vote in the etherpad and send to the e-mail list.19:39
fungii can probably do july 8-9, yes19:39
pleia2I might be out of town then, but I have to confirm19:39
anteayaasselin_: I also may be out of town19:40
anteayabut july 8 and 9 seem to be popular with others19:40
jeblair#action asselin_ propose july 8,9 for openstackci sprint to mailing list19:40
zaroreminder would be excellent19:40
asselin_ok thanks19:40
jeblairasselin_: cool, thanks19:40
asselin_zaro, will do. thanks19:40
jeblairanything else?19:41
asselin_that's it19:41
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Upgrading Gerrit)19:41
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zaroi tested the proposed fix, but it didn't fix.19:41
jeblairzaro: uh oh19:42
anteayadid you post your results to anywhere google can read?19:42
fungihe commented on the review19:42
zaroyes, on mailing list + on the review19:42
fungi#link https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/repo-discuss/ZeGWPyyJlrM/mQsZIsy2740J19:43
zaronot sure what to do besides wait for real jgit fix. other option is to increase timeout like the sony guys did19:43
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jeblairwhat did they set their timeout to?19:44
zaronot sure, but can ask sven.19:44
zarohe said he increased in the mailing list and that made error go away. i will ask him19:44
jeblairi'm a little concerned about that, because occasionally we have some _really huge_ changes; we either set ourselves up to a dos by letting gerrit perform all that computation, or a dos by killing repositories19:45
jeblairon the plus side, it's really cool this is possible to test now :)19:45
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zaroyeah, not ideal but i think that's what sony is doing now19:46
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zarojust an option wanted to throw out.19:46
jeblairzaro: can you keep testing their proposed fixes19:46
jeblairand let's see if they can resolve this soon-ish19:46
zaroyes, i plan to.19:46
anteayais moving to 2.9 an option?19:46
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jeblairand if they give up, we'll work something else out :)19:47
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jeblairanteaya: i don't feel like we're under significant pressure to upgrade to 2.919:47
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anteayaI would like close connection19:47
anteayawhich works with 2.9 but not 2.819:48
anteayabut that's just me19:48
jeblairanything else?19:48
zaroi'm not sure that's true, i think i had to add it to our 2.10 branch19:48
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zaroanteaya: ^19:49
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anteayaclose connection works with 2.9+, it is a feature in 2.11 but you backported successfully to 2.10 and 2.919:49
zarowhich means it's only in 2.1119:49
anteayait doesn't work with 2.819:49
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anteayaat least that is what I recall you told me19:49
zaroohh, i see what you mean19:49
zaronothing else from me on this topic19:50
anteayaso staying on 2.8 means no close connection feature, which I would like19:50
jeblairokay, let's see where the gerrit folks get to on this19:50
anteayaI'm done too19:50
jeblair#topic puppet-stackalytics (pabelanger)19:50
*** openstack changes topic to "puppet-stackalytics (pabelanger) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:50
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nibalizerwe cooking this up again, then?19:50
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pabelangerSo, mostly helping mordred with the effort to get stackalytics under infra.19:51
pabelangerjeblair asked to get a spec up, so I did that today: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/187715/19:51
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jeblairwe had a nice work session at the summit where a lot of folks generally thought that stackalytics was the way to go19:51
jeblairpabelanger: oh cool, that was fast :)19:51
mrmartinso it means we will drop activity.o.o ?19:51
pabelangerI also have a base puppet-stackalytics modules already created and ready for governance.  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/187645/ and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/187269/19:51
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fungithe direction forward we determined from the infra analytics tools discussion at the summit was to try and get stackalytics hosted/managed within the openstack community and supplement it with anything we were originally relying on other analytics tools for19:52
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fungiso that includes probably activity.o.o reports, things ptls want from reviewstats, et cetera19:53
jeblairmrmartin: i don't think reed has plans to do that any time soon, it has a lot of things he still needs19:53
pabelangerI'm not sure who at mirantis to talk to about the move, I know mordred knows some peeps.  But would be good to get them involved with the spec if possible19:53
jeblairpabelanger: SergeyLukjanov and docaedo offered to help on that front19:53
fungiSergeyLukjanov volunteered to assist'19:53
fungier, that19:53
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pabelangerYa, so once the puppet-stackalytics is created, I'll port over the work mordred did a few months ago and polish it up19:54
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pabelangerShould be a straightforward move19:54
jeblaircool, so people should go review that spec, and we'll certainly want some mirantis folks signing off on that too19:54
jeblairpabelanger: sounds good19:54
jeblairreed: ^ you'll probably want to look at that19:55
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/187715/19:55
jeblairanything else on this?19:55
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pabelangernothing from me19:55
jeblair#topic Schedule next project renames19:55
*** openstack changes topic to "Schedule next project renames (Meeting topic: infra)"19:55
docaedoplease add me as a reviewer for the stackalytics stuff :)19:55
jeblair(technically not on agenda)19:55
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jeblairbut we have a boatload of these19:56
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jeblairmany of which actually have changes ready now19:56
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jeblairdid we decide on an interval for this?  like once every N- weeks/months?19:56
funginot that i recall19:56
nibalizerI also heard chatter about an ansible playbook to streamline it19:56
anteayaI didn't know we were trying to decide on an interval19:56
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jeblairokay, we might want to at some point...19:57
jeblairanyone seen the playbook?19:57
fungiyeah, mordred wanted to test-drive his rename playbook this time19:57
anteayawhere does it live?19:57
jeblairanteaya: that's the question :)19:57
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/10505719:58
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fungii think19:58
pabelangerfungi, yes19:58
jeblairwe should probably go ahead and schedule, and if the playbook shows up, cool19:58
anteaya3 -1's19:58
anteayajeblair: yeah I agree with that19:58
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jeblairthis friday?  next friday?19:58
anteayaeither is fine with me19:59
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anteayawe have quite a load do we want to split them up?19:59
jeblairanteaya: they won't take much longer19:59
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jeblairanteaya: it's easier on us to have bigger batches19:59
anteayaah okay then I'm for next friday then19:59
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fungiagreed, big batches are fine20:00
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anteayato ensure all the patches are ready20:00
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jeblairdeferred until next meeting then20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun  2 20:00:34 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
fungii'm cool with this friday if it's early in the day, but have a social obligation later in my evening (~2100 utc i'll be spoken for20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-02-19.01.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-02-19.01.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-02-19.01.log.html20:00
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ttxAlright... Anyone here for the TC meeting ?20:00
ttxrussellb, jgriffith, lifeless, mordred, dtroyer, jaypipes, dhellmann: around ?20:01
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ttxI think mordred is on a plane20:01
ttx#startmeeting tc20:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun  2 20:01:38 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:01
lifelessttx: \o/20:01
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openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
sdaguettx: that's usually a reasonable guess20:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:01
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* dims_ peeks20:01
mordredtaking off as we speak20:01
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ttxOur agenda for today:20:02
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:02
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ttx#topic Add tc-approved-release tag for trademarkable projects20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Add tc-approved-release tag for trademarkable projects (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/18247420:02
ttxWe now have enough Yays to approve this one20:02
ttxAny last-minute comment/vote ?20:02
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* devananda lurks20:03
ttxTaking that as a no.. and approving20:03
* morganfainberg is double secret lurking.20:03
russellbyay, glad that's sorted20:03
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ttxI'll be able to deprecate the "integrated-release" one now20:03
ttx#topic I18n team want to become an OpenStack Project Team20:04
*** openstack changes topic to "I18n team want to become an OpenStack Project Team (Meeting topic: tc)"20:04
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/18492020:04
ttxThis one should also be relatively painless20:04
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annegent_whoohoo i18n!20:04
* flaper87 does the i18n dance20:04
ttxwith the recent revotes we are above the required line20:04
* dhellmann was surprised they weren't already an official team of some sort20:04
russellband somehow this got on the board agenda for the next board meeting20:04
sdaguerussellb: .... i18n?20:05
russellbatc status for their contributions20:05
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russellb... i have no idea ...20:05
ttxI'll give everyone a few more seconds to reapply previous votes if they want their vote properly recorded20:05
russellbbut anyway, glad it's just sorted and i can report that.20:05
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ttxso.. 30 seconds to ignition20:05
annegent_ttx: let me vote, on slooooowwwww internet20:05
* annegent_ says please20:05
ttxyou should upgrade for a european internet20:05
sdagueoh, gotcha. Yeh, we probably want to figure out a tool that can count the contributions into the i18n tooling for atc instead of having to extra-atc them all20:05
jeblair(also, when we move to zanata, hopefully around end of this cycle, that will be more automatable)20:06
dhellmannrussellb: it would be good to have some documentation about how atc status will be granted to that team, yes20:06
ttxalright, approving now20:06
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AJaegerdhellmann: once we moved from transifex to zanata, this should be easier to do...20:07
ttxdid I mention I like the new vote-biut-let-everyone-express-opinion system ?20:07
* flaper87 loves it too20:07
flaper87it's definitely clearer now20:07
annegent_ttx: you didn't but yes I like it too! Thanks infra maintainers!20:07
russellbi wanted to ask what convention we should use with code review and tc vote20:07
russellbi've just used both, because why not20:07
flaper87russellb: lol, same here20:07
ttx#topic Add compute kernel tag20:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Add compute kernel tag (Meeting topic: tc)"20:07
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/18011220:08
markmcclainI went belt and suspenders and checked both20:08
ttxThis one is likely to be a longer discussion, so let's timebox it to 20:35 UTC20:08
ttxLively discussion on that review -- Most opposition to the tag is about it being useless, with some insisting it may be harmful20:08
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ttxI'm still in favor of it -- The alternative being to let various documentation, websites and presentations present their own version of a "starting point"20:08
dhellmannnow that the ops team has created a repo to define their own tags, I think we should let them own this one20:08
ttxand I think that would end up a lot more confusing to our new users than a clear answer20:08
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devanandadhellmann: have a link to that?20:08
ttxso I see some benefits and I don't see that many drawbacks20:08
dhellmannI did leave that in a comment on this review20:08
sdagueso, I tried to summarize my point of view there about this being useful from a "start here" point earlier today20:09
zanebttx: I'm not convinced the tags website is going to be the first place new users look20:09
sdaguedhellmann: yeh, I just read your comment there20:09
annegent_dhellmann: I'm fine with that, want to hear from jaypipes as well20:09
annegent_ttx: yeah that happens already :)20:09
flaper87I'm really failing to see how that tag will be useful.20:09
ttxzaneb: I'm convinced they wiull look into openstack.org/software first20:09
russellbi don't expect the tags website to be the first place people look either20:09
dhellmannI remain convinced that we need some product documentation, that this should be part of it, and that neither has anything to do with project governance.20:09
ttxzaneb: and that will exhibit tags in the near future20:09
russellbbut i think it's useful for the TC to make some opinionated calls to say "yes, this is the official starting point" and expecting docs to follow that20:09
flaper87If anything, it'll invite users to go and read tags instead of docs20:09
flaper87which is something we've put lots of efforts on20:09
lifelesszaneb: nice near-rant :)20:10
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ttxrussellb: yes, I like the idea of expressing that20:10
flaper87dhellmann: ++ exactly my thoughts20:10
jaypipesI think dhellmann summed up my thoughts very well there.20:10
sdagueright, so basically either the TC takes a stand on "start here" or we cede that to others and decide20:10
ttxdhellmann: I fear that we'll dilute the message20:11
jaypipessdague: I think we cede that to others and encourage documentation for that specific purpose.20:11
dhellmannttx: I trust our documentation team to get this right.20:11
zaneblifeless: I consider it a kind of success that you only described it as a 'near'-rant :)20:11
flaper87jaypipes: ++20:11
annegent_any reasoning against a proposal like http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-operators/2015-May/006886.html20:11
ttxdhellmann: and our marketing team for the website ?20:11
lifelesszaneb: it was assertive but not angry. Thus not a rant.20:11
annegent_I ask as docs person and tc person20:11
dhellmannttx: I would expect them to consult the documentation, no?20:11
annegent_and of course docs are the hardest part of this :)20:12
ttxdhellmann: I wouldn't bet any money on that20:12
flaper87ttx: but we should encourage that behavior20:12
dhellmannttx: you have more experience with them than I do, so maybe I'm overly optimistic20:12
sdaguedhellmann: and when there then becomes a fight with the docs team because there are different opinions on "start here"?20:12
flaper87instead of encouraging users to read tags20:12
jaypipesannegent_: I'm embarrassed to say I had not seen that post yet. :(20:12
ttxdhellmann: at least by making them piggy-back on the tags (which the website will exhibit anyway) we could make sure the message would be clear20:12
dhellmannsdague: the docs team can have more than one "start here" for different purposes, can't they?20:12
annegent_so much of OpenStack becomes word-of-mouth it seems. More objective measures are welcome, from any one.20:12
annegent_jaypipes: ah it happens :)20:12
annegent_sdague: we are already dealing with that with debian install guide20:13
annegent_which doesn't package nova-network20:13
sdaguedhellmann: sure, which works fine for someone that already knows openstack20:13
lifelesszaneb: so, at the risk of repeating stuff; what are your proposed alternative solutions that you reference in the review ?20:13
annegent_I was in the Ops tags session at the summit, and I think it's good to get multiple viewpoitns20:13
annegent_I'd also like us to consider the bitergia offer20:13
zaneblifeless: read a couple of comments back20:13
* flaper87 needs to read bitergia's email20:14
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dhellmannsdague: I think it can be clearly explained how to install different projects for different goals without the governing body trying to pick one true way to do an installation.20:14
sdagueI still firmly think that OpenStack as a community is better served by a single door that's easy to draw people in, and then expand into the rest of the OpenStack universe20:14
zaneblifeless: but basically, more user survey data; case studies on SuperUser20:14
ttxsdague: ++20:14
dtroyersdague: ++20:14
annegent_and even for the docs writers, of which there are a handful, we have to still figure out what to write/include through consultation and word-of-mouth20:14
flaper87sdague: but what if that door takes me where I don't want to go ?20:14
jaypipessdague: I do as well. But I don't think a single tag like kernel:compute does that.20:14
ttxsdague: that is what the marketing teaml asked me, too20:14
* annegent_ taps mic20:14
* dhellmann listens to annegent_ 20:14
flaper87that's one of my main issues with the tag20:14
sdagueflaper87: then don't go there20:14
flaper87sdague: why isn't there a second door ?20:15
sdaguethe point is that anyone experienced enough to skip past it can20:15
anteayasdague: ++20:15
zanebsdague: so why is no distro doing that?20:15
lifelessanteaya: SHOUT ?20:15
lifelessannegent_: SHOUT?20:15
annegent_dhellmann: all we've come up with so far is: current install guide living in openstack-manuals, followed by a "gathered across repos" install guide20:15
edleafedhellmann: if a part of OpenStack is optional, then isn't it not kernel by definition?20:15
sdaguebecause if you have a building with 10 doors, people that have never been in before get confused and leave20:15
annegent_it's my slowwwww internet20:15
ttxflaper87: requiring newcomers to read a 50-page doc to determine where to start...20:15
sdagueit's great for people that already know the building20:15
ttxAt least before we were exposing them to the "nova/swift/neutron" trilogy20:16
annegent_there are plenty of opinionated installers20:16
flaper87ttx: can those docs be improved to have a "start here" section?20:16
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lifelessI'm now thoroughly confused20:16
lifelesshere's my understanding20:16
dhellmannannegent_: I see quite a few people in this meeting who would like to provide much more detailed guidance on that issue. I just don't think that the governing body needs to be doing it, because this tag isn't going to be used to set any governance policies.20:16
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annegent_flaper87: we do that already with three opinionated architectures20:16
ttxflaper87: if we can't give a "start here", how would the doc team be able to answer that concisely ?20:16
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lifelessthe operators - folk who have already deployed - at the ops meetup, said they wanted a clear articulation of the onramp to becoming operators?20:16
flaper87annegent_: ++20:16
lifeless^ is that a true statement ?20:16
ttxlifeless: yes20:17
sdaguelifeless: yes, it was expressed in Philly that way20:17
annegent_lifeless: yes20:17
devanandalifeless: yes20:17
anteayaso did the board at the board meeting20:17
ttxlifeless: it's basically the only tag we worked on so far that they feel has some value to them20:17
dhellmannttx: because if the doc team does it, that doesn't reflect an opinion being expressed by the TC, and so it's less contentious -- the doc team isn't saying anything that could be construed as "your project is not important" which is the issue we keep having with this tag20:17
flaper87lifeless: is that something ops-tags can help with ?20:17
lifelessttx: but we're working on the tag because they said they need an onramp20:17
annegent_dhellmann: right20:17
lifelessttx: right?20:17
dtroyerdhellmann: one reason I think it needs to be about technical requirements and not subjective20:17
ttxlifeless: yes. They said the hardest thing was to get a clear, limited set of projects to consider when they first open the openstack door20:18
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ttxif it takes more than one minute to find out where to start, we fail20:18
russellbi don't see why this would be punted to ops, "here, try this" is something we owe them, not the other way20:18
zaneblifeless: actually it was proposed several times already. The reason keeps changing, but that was the latest ;)20:18
lifelessttx: So, *how* does the tag provide the onramp? It itself isn't prose, nor intrinsically discoverable, and like code comments could easily become skewed.20:18
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russellbthe tag itself doesn't, it's an official designation that i would expect other things (docs, website, whatever) to be based on20:19
dtroyerlifeless: I see it more as an index than the actual map20:19
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lifelesswhere I'm going with this is -20:19
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ttxlifeless: it is intrinsically discoverable if the openstack.org/.software website is redesigned to exhibit it by default and let you navigate tags to discover other projects in the same interface20:19
sdagueright, we can't get the information to flow out from "start here" until we actually decide what it is20:19
lifelessif we want to ensure that there *is* a minimal set of things; that is governance.20:19
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fungi"my manager told me that our company needs an openstack... what things do i need to install to not get fired?"20:19
lifelessE.g. saying to Nova - you must be deployable without cinder and without Neutron20:19
dhellmannrussellb: I don't think the docs team needs us to hold their hand on this. Would we do anything like this for a nova spec?20:19
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ttxfungi: what minimal set of things20:20
russellbit's not hand holding20:20
fungittx: exactly20:20
annegent_dhellmann: russellb: I think an official tag helps the docs team20:20
russellbit's clearly controversial, and we're the right group to make a call20:20
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annegent_it provides focus and prioritization, is that wrong?20:20
ttxright, punting to someone else is not always the right answer20:20
dtroyerannegent_: not at all20:20
ttxannegent_: some people think focus is wrong, yes.20:20
ttxannegent_: I don't20:21
sdagueright, it seems like not making a call because it's controversial just means we're setting up some other team to get everyone to hate them when they do the "wrong" thing as considered by some segment of the community20:21
dhellmannno, that's not what I'm saying20:21
russellbsdague: or just that it continues to be painfully confusing because no 2 sources agree20:21
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dhellmannit's controversial because there are many possible useful answers, and we're picking only one based on a limited view20:21
annegent_ttx: heh20:21
annegent_zaneb: is it the prioritization that's hurtful?20:21
annegent_russellb: heh, might be that20:21
sdagueI guess we should probably back off to two questions. #1 should the TC have an opinion on "start here"20:21
sdague#2 if so, what is it20:21
ttx#1 yes -- if we can't who else can.20:22
zanebannegent_: kind of20:22
russellbon question #1, yes, i think that's a very useful technical community deliverable20:22
lifelessso there are two things I think; 1a) For Nova, how can we make sure there is a minimal set - that X and Y and Z don't creep in, and 1b) should we be saying that; and 2) Is nova the right/only project to be providing that guidance for, or are there many such projects?20:22
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russellband also agree that no other group is better positioned to decide what that is20:22
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dhellmannI think it's pretty clear that a "start here" definition should include the fewest number of projects based on the use case of "how do I not get fired while testing openstack" but that may not actually be a useful starting point for someone else20:22
ttxwho disagrees with #1 above20:22
annegent_zaneb: ok, fair20:22
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lifelessso I think I'm agreeing with sdague here - framed slightly differently20:22
annegent_dhellmann: I think that's why use cases are more helpful20:22
annegent_and avoiding "kernel" nomenclature20:23
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ttxannegent_: seed ?20:23
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sdaguedhellmann: that's fine, because it's not like we're going to go yell at people that start somewhere else, this is about "I don't know where to start" folks20:23
dhellmannannegent_: right, and that's why I think using words in prose instead of tags is the way to solve the original problem posed by the ops community20:23
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russellband we may have a few starting points for clear use cases20:23
russellbthat's fine with me20:23
lifelessdhellmann: / fungi: the issue I have with 'fired while testing openstack' is that that is so damn amorphous. We've opted out of being a product.20:23
jaypipesttx: I hate to say it but I do not think the TC should have an opinion on "start here".20:23
flaper87I'd agree with #1 if we also agree on adding other starting points20:23
jaypipesthere, I said it.20:23
russellbbut the compute (VM) focused one seems like the most obvious start20:23
annegent_ttx: kernel has too much meaning in linux, gets confusing20:23
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ttxjaypipes: I know you don't, and I disagree with you on that20:24
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lifelessis it VM's? Is it Containers? Is it storage?20:24
annegent_I don't think it's a start here though. I think it's use cases. "If this is your goal start here"20:24
ttxjaypipes: but that is fine. That's why we do vote20:24
dtroyerflaper87: the other obvious choices are single-sproject sets20:24
lifelessannegent_: Yes!20:24
sdaguelifeless: based on the user survey, yes, it clearly is20:24
fungilifeless: i don't disagree. just trying to put myself in the place of the ops community members who have requested a grocery list of "what is an openstack"20:24
devanandajaypipes: the distro's wont have that opinion. service providers wont. woulud you advocate that no one fills that need, then?20:24
ttxjaypipes: if the TC can't have an opinion on that, I don't see who else can20:24
sdaguethat's where most people are starting20:24
flaper87dtroyer: if we don't count keystone, many of them are single project sets.20:24
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zanebannegent_: yes, that would be much more useful imho20:24
russellbttx: ++20:24
lifelessdevananda: distros very much have opinions20:24
devanandattx: exactly20:24
jaypipesdevananda: the distros absolutely have that opinion.20:24
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zanebttx: distros20:25
devanandalifeless: oh yes, but not on where to start20:25
lifelessdevananda: Ubuntu for instance has a very specific and particular process for moving something from 'its out there' to 'supported'20:25
ttxjaypipes, zaneb; and it's fine. Our start-here is pretty minimal20:25
devanandalifeless: supported by distro X is not the same as "start here"20:25
devanandanot even remotely20:25
sdaguehttp://superuser.openstack.org/articles/openstack-user-survey-insights-november-2014 - project usage20:25
lifelessthere was a disconnect20:25
markmcclainso here's the thing.. defcore has essentially defined a starting point20:25
ttxtimecheck - 10 min left20:25
russellbmarkmcclain: an absolutely bare minimum least common denominator starting point20:26
lifelessfor now20:26
russellbwe should *not* be using that as our standard, IMO20:26
lifelessdefcore is set to grow though20:26
sdaguemarkmcclain: they really haven't, they've taking capabilities20:26
jaypipesI guess I'm stumped by the singularity of the "start here" argument. Nobody I know asks "how do I start?". They instead ask "how do I accomplish X with a minimal set of things."20:26
sdaguefor instance, there is no networking specified20:26
zanebrussellb: I thought that's exactly what people were calling for here?20:26
dhellmannjaypipes: ++20:26
sdaguejaypipes: I guess we're talking to different people20:26
flaper87jaypipes: exactly20:26
ttxback to sdague's first question -- quick show of TC hands on question #1: should the TC have an opinion on "start here"20:27
sdaguebecause I talk to a bunch of people that aren't doing OpenStack because there is no start here20:27
russellblet's please not confuse defcore with this20:27
jaypipesand that "how do I accomplish X with a minimal set of things" is best answered, IMHO, by documentation.20:27
markmcclainbut I get the feeling that managers who ask folks to stand up "openstack" are going to think of the capabilities covered by defcore20:27
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ttx#1 -- yes, because if not us, who else can20:27
russellbttx: #vote ?20:27
lifelessI think its reasonable and useful and can meet the operator needs to document 'this is the onramp for VM's in OpenStack today': Nova+X+Y etc20:27
ttxrussellb: ok, ok20:27
zanebsdague: are people who just want to get on the hype wagon for no reason our target audience?20:27
ttx#startvote  should the TC have an opinion on "start here" ? yes, no, meh20:28
openstackBegin voting on: should the TC have an opinion on "start here" ? Valid vote options are yes, no, meh.20:28
openstackVote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.20:28
russellb#vote yes20:28
ttx#vote yes20:28
sdaguezaneb: no, they are smaller institutions like colleges20:28
jaypipeszaneb: that's not what sdague is saying, you know that.20:28
lifelessI think #1 is kindof misframed20:28
sdague#vote yes20:28
lifeless#vote no20:28
flaper87#vote no20:28
dtroyer#vote yes20:28
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markmcclain#vote no20:28
lifelessI'd vote yes for a different #120:28
ttxlifeless: how would you better frame it ?20:28
flaper87lifeless: same here20:28
dhellmann#vote no20:28
jeblair#vote yes20:28
jaypipes#vote no20:28
annegent_I'd vote yes for "start here for this use case"20:28
ttxflaper87: same question20:28
russellbannegent_: that's my interpretation ...20:29
annegent_russellb: ah ok20:29
russellbthat's why it's called "compute"20:29
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annegent_#vote yes20:29
lifelessttx: 'should the TC have an opinion on start here for this use case today'20:29
russellband not just "openstack"20:29
jaypipesI'd vote yes for "The TC members should absolutely contribute their opinions to documentation that details how to start accomplishing X use cases"20:29
russellbthat's what the tag proposes!20:29
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ttxlifeless: that is what the question is.20:29
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annegent_jaypipes: :)20:29
flaper87russellb: is the idea to add more tags for other starting points ?20:29
ttxyou can fix your vote :)20:29
openstackVoted on "should the TC have an opinion on "start here" ?" Results are20:30
openstackyes (6): annegent_, ttx, russellb, jeblair, sdague, dtroyer20:30
russellbthis is the first one, for "compute"20:30
openstackno (5): lifeless, dhellmann, jaypipes, markmcclain, flaper8720:30
ttxLet me reframe the question20:30
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lifelessttx: two specific things there: binding it to use cases, and making clear its retrospective not prospective.20:30
ttx#startvote should the TC have an opinion on start here for this use case today? yes, no, meh20:30
openstackBegin voting on: should the TC have an opinion on start here for this use case today? Valid vote options are yes, no, meh.20:30
openstackVote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.20:30
russellb#vote yes20:30
ttx#vote yes20:30
lifelessI think we *can* do a prospective one, but its a whole different discussion - and not what the operators asked for as I understand it20:30
sdague#vote yes20:30
lifeless#vote yes20:30
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jeblair#vote meh20:30
jeblair#vote yes20:30
dtroyer#vote yes20:30
annegent_#vote yes20:30
ttxjeblair: :)20:30
flaper87#vote yes20:31
jeblair(i just wanted to vote meh once in my life)20:31
ttxmarkmcclain, dhellmann, jaypipes ?20:31
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dhellmannI guess "meh" is abstain?20:31
dhellmann#vote meh20:31
ttxdhellmann: yes20:31
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jaypipesttx: is this opinion == a tag?20:32
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flaper87jaypipes: nope20:32
flaper87that's a different vote20:32
ttxjaypipes: next question20:32
jaypipes#vote yes20:32
ttxmarkmcclain: ?20:32
markmcclain#vote meh20:33
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openstackVoted on "should the TC have an opinion on start here for this use case today?" Results are20:33
openstackyes (9): annegent_, ttx, russellb, jaypipes, jeblair, sdague, lifeless, dtroyer, flaper8720:33
openstackmeh (2): dhellmann, markmcclain20:33
ttx#2 if so, what is it20:33
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sdagueand, more importantly, how do we get to some rough agreement there20:34
russellbif the TC has an opinion, i'd like to see it documented in an official way20:34
ttxWhat are the options on the table for the TC to express that opinion20:34
russellband not just "go participate in every possible place that the opinion may have an impact"20:34
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dhellmannI would like to see a list with more than one use case proposed.20:34
ttxTags have been built for us to express that20:34
sdagueyeh, I guess 2 is really 2 questions20:34
flaper87dhellmann: ++20:34
sdaguehow do we express and opinion, and what is it20:34
dtroyerthe tags were conceived as a reflection of project attributes, if the tags here simply state required relationships, I believe that's a start for what we are looking for20:34
dtroyerand build from there20:34
russellblooks like we're hitting our time box ...20:35
dhellmanndtroyer: that might also be a more constructive approach20:35
ttxSo of those who voted yes -- how would you express that opinion ?20:35
ttxquick ;)20:35
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jaypipestags were meant to be objective, not subjective.20:35
dtroyerttx: ^^^20:35
ttx- tags20:35
Rockygso, it's not a compute kernel, you're really saying whaat's the minimum I need to stand up a compute cloud20:35
annegent_I'd like the ops team and bitergia to tackle20:35
russellbi think a tag seems like a fine way to do it.20:35
sdaguesome other doc ?20:35
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dtroyerjaypipes: exactly.  "nova reuiqres glance" is an objective statement20:35
jaypipesdocumentation can be opinionated and subjective, which is why I think it's good to have TC members submit their opinions to documentation.20:35
zanebdtroyer: ++20:36
russellbi also disagree that we have to be objective about everything20:36
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ttxjaypipes: "the minimal set of project s to deliver basic compute stuff" happens to be prettu objective20:36
russellbThe TC feels a lot less useful to me if we're limited to only being objective20:36
dtroyerrussellb: true, but we'll get somewhere faster if we start with that20:36
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jaypipesttx: apparently that isn't so objective :)20:36
dhellmannrussellb: ++20:36
ttxand yes we are hitting the timebox20:36
flaper87russellb: ++20:36
annegent_ttx: until mordred wanted DNS :)20:36
zanebrussellb: I actually agree with that fwiw20:36
ttxsdague: any last-minute question to help you make progress ?20:36
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jaypipesdon't take it personally? :)20:37
sdaguehonestly, I don't know20:37
zanebrussellb: but on technical questions, not political questions20:37
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russellbthis is technical IMO20:37
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zanebI respectfully disagree20:37
ttxzaneb: I fail to see how telling people which are the basic set of projects you need to run Nova is political20:37
russellbthis seems pretty basic20:38
annegent_zaneb: yeah that's one part of your argument I don't get... yet.20:38
ttxok, let's clariufy off-meeting20:38
annegent_sounds good20:38
ttx#topic Adding distribution packaging to OpenStack20:38
*** openstack changes topic to "Adding distribution packaging to OpenStack (Meeting topic: tc)"20:38
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/18518720:38
zanebttx: that isn't the question though. as dtroyer pointed out, the answer there is completely objective20:38
* russellb takes a deep breath20:38
ttxThis one sounds like a good idea, the opposition is mostly about how early it is20:38
russellbyeah, +1 to the idea20:38
ttxThe team is just getting created, doesn't even have a PTL or a clear plan yet20:38
* flaper87 sips his wine20:38
ttxPersonally I like to bless existing teams, not the idea of a team, maybe that's just me20:38
russellbpersonally would like it to be a little bit more baked of a proposal20:38
* flaper87 likes the idea20:39
annegent_no suse?20:39
russellbthis patch doesn't block getting work done20:39
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ttxi.e. "Are you OpenStack" rather than "Will you be OpenStack"20:39
jaypipesttx: why don't we make the tags something like "depends-on:keystone" and "can-use:neutron" then, instead of the current situation which is everyone's opinion on what is "minimal" for a particular use case?'20:39
flaper87I think it's great the patch is there and that some opinions where already laid out20:39
russellbno PTL, no clear idea of how the different distros will collaborate in a single team20:39
lifelessso there are two routes forward20:39
sdagueso, I think the team thinks it is blocking getting a gerrit repo up20:39
flaper87that'll help interested folks to get started20:39
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ttxrussellb: well, some people said it would be great to let them create repos under openstack/ to avoid renaming20:39
lifelessbuild the team up more; stuff on stackforge; revisit later.20:39
lifelessmake this the debian-only-thingy team20:39
jeblairi think there's a third option20:40
flaper87russellb: those are the reasons I proposed using stackforge20:40
AJaegerannegent_: my colleagues at SUSE are interested, not sure why they didn't mail ;(20:40
ttxI'm fine letting them create under openstack/* if that's all it takes20:40
sdagueand if we can figure out how to get them a gerrit repo up, I think that would be good20:40
jeblairwhich is for the folks who are involved to continue working out a plan on the mailing list20:40
annegent_AJaeger: ah ok20:40
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dhellmannjeblair: ++20:40
jeblairand then approve them as an openstack project20:40
russellbjeblair: yeah, i didn't expect that to take long20:40
russellbthat's my preference20:40
lifelessjeblair: I see that as basically route 1, but sure20:40
flaper87jeblair: +120:40
dhellmannjeblair: are they blocked on having a git repo in the mean time?20:40
sdaguebecause I'd hate to have another magnum stall where they effectively blocked moving forward for 4 months on a chicken vs. egg problem with getting a repo20:41
dhellmannor are we not even at a stage where they know what sort of repo(s) they want?20:41
ttxok, so just WIP the proposal since it's at the very minimum 2 weeks too early20:41
lifelessjeblair: all I'm saying is that they can get stuff on stackforge anytime they need, they don't need to stall20:41
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flaper87can they start somewhere else while the plan is sorted out?20:41
russellbit seriously should not take long to write a simple plan in text form20:41
lifelessrenaming isn't that hard20:41
dhellmannrussellb: ++20:41
jeblairrussellb: exactly20:41
AJaegerannegent_: I consider it too early, there need to be more discussions...20:41
russellbthat people agree to as "this is what we're doing and how we're collaborating"20:41
flaper87russellb: ++20:41
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jeblairlifeless: it's SUPER hard20:41
annegent_I would like to see evidence of them working together, personally from experience with the install guide.20:41
AJaegerand I'm not really seeing them20:41
russellbif they don't hvae that, i don't see a git repo as valuable or useful20:41
ttxannegent_: +120:41
jeblairi really don't want to rename 100 repos20:41
lifelessjeblair: I stand corrected. InfraAAS has spoken20:41
jeblairwhich should be able to start out in openstack20:41
annegent_jeblair: aww man yah20:41
lifelessjeblair: 100 repos?! wtf that worries me more than anything :)20:42
russellbannegent_: right, i'm also concerned that this makes no sense as a single team, and reality is that it's 2 or 3 teams20:42
jeblair(and i also have a general issue with encoding software development lifecycle attributes in git repository names)20:42
russellbwould like some comments on that from people doing the work20:42
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ttxok, so do we agree to delay it until the plan is more baked ?20:42
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russellblifeless: repo per package20:42
flaper87russellb: I'd expect the plan to show how the collaboration will happen20:42
ttxno point in discussing it further today then20:42
AJaegerit's not clear how distro specifics are done IMHO - whether there's one Debian, one Ubuntu, etc repo, or one RPM or one DEB - or all in one...20:42
jeblairrussellb: yeah20:42
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sdagueso, it's also fine if we think this is just a debian effort and call it openstack/deb-packaging20:43
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flaper87overall, I love the idea20:43
sdaguebecause maybe this is like the puppet / chef / ansible thing20:43
ttxsdague: that's what I want them to sort out20:43
jeblairsdague: yeah, i think that would be fine if that's what folks want to do20:43
russellbsdague: that's my expectation, personally20:43
flaper87sdague: exactly20:43
ttxsdague: horiizontal "packaging" or moree like puppet/chef20:43
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sdagueit sounded though like there was some cross distro buy in from the list and discussion at summit20:43
ttxOK, Let's just WIP the proposal and come back to it when it's matured a bit ?20:43
sdaguemaybe my reading is incorrect20:44
russellbonly with the really high level idea of "use infra to build packages"20:44
markmcclainttx: +120:44
lifelessthe summit issue is that you get a very small set of folk in a room20:44
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ttxsince we have other topic to cover20:44
lifelessbecause conflicts20:44
russellbi expect the actual collaboration to be base infra stuff20:44
dhellmannsdague: that was my impression from the current discussion, too20:44
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sdagueok, so we should at least give zigo some specific "do this next"20:44
anteayasdague: the cross distro buy in depends on the details20:44
annegent_sdague: yeah he'll want that20:44
ttx#agreed Packaging team proposal should be WIPed until the plan is more baked20:45
ttx#info we should give zigo some specific "do this next"20:45
jeblair1) work out whether it's 1 or more horizonatl efforts20:45
sdagueso I guess that's "please get a more concrete plan of what contents are in the repo, and what the plan is foir what's in that"20:45
jeblair2) describe the collaboration plan20:45
lifelessisn't reference/new-projects-requirements.rst the key thing?20:45
russellbjeblair: ++20:45
lifelessI mean, thats our benchmark20:45
ttxjeblair: do I hear you taking an action hgere ,20:45
jeblaircan do, will incorporate what i and sdague said20:45
ttx#action jeblair to give zigo some specific "do this next"20:46
jeblairand anything else anyone spits out20:46
ttx#topic Ironic is considering changing their release cycle20:46
*** openstack changes topic to "Ironic is considering changing their release cycle (Meeting topic: tc)"20:46
sdaguecool, thanks jeblair20:46
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/18520320:46
lifelessI think the plan jeblair wants is infra-level, not governance and we should just +1 the project20:46
ttxThis is more of a heads-up -- we have a thread about it started at:20:46
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-May/065036.html20:46
jeblairlifeless: (which use of 'infra' was that?)20:46
ttxFWIW this was discussed with the release team and we agree to use Ironic as an experiment in this direction20:46
lifelessjeblair: the infra team20:46
ttxIronic doing it is not that much of an issue, but it has interesting side-effects20:47
flaper87devananda: great write up, btw!20:47
* russellb happy if release team is happy20:47
ttxBasically we need to relax the constraints on "common versioning" (having "liberty" things be a set of diverse version numbers)...20:47
devanandaflaper87: ty20:47
jeblairlifeless: no, we're not involved; i think this would be a new openstack project20:47
morganfainbergYay ironic!20:47
ttx... and also overhaul the stable point release process (since we won't be able to tag a common point release anymore)20:47
lifelessjeblair: in that your needs around repo counts, locations etc are not governance concerns AFAICT.20:47
ttxDiscussion on release versioning @20:47
flaper87I'm happy to see projects experimenting with this20:47
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-May/065211.html20:47
ttxand Stable point release abandonment / process overhaul discussed @20:47
devanandafwiw, I've just been told that morganfainberg has fielded several questions on when/whether keystone will follow suit20:47
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-May/065144.html20:47
devanandaso this is already starting the conversation in other projects20:47
ttxSo please chime in on those threads if you have a strong opinion either way20:47
morganfainbergI will confirm what devananda said.20:47
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dhellmanndevananda, morganfainberg : I think a lot of projects are going to find this easier to manage, but it would be good for us to experiment with one or two this cycle to work out the kinks in the process changes20:48
ttxlifeless: (I still think a project team that doesn't even have a team or a lead yet is not "baked enough" for us to make a final call20:48
devanandaI would have expected any project that is reasonably usable "stand-alone" to be interested...20:48
lifelessttx: sure, so that should be the thing :)20:48
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devanandabut the impact on developers that this seems to offer (and really, is the impetus behind the proposal) seems to be more interesting20:49
dhellmanndevananda: I suspect even some of the others will find it appealing20:49
devanandadhellmann: agreed re: try it in a few projects first20:49
ttxStill a lot of details to clear on the above-mentioned  "side-effects"20:49
ttxso i would not rush anyone else in that20:49
morganfainbergdhellmann: keystone will not be moving immediately. I worry about disrupting too much. Even though I like the release model proposed by ironic better personally.20:49
devanandaironic has been the forerunner on trying new things, and our developers seem comfortable (and some are clearly eager) to try this out htis cycle20:50
lifelessI'm just happy folk want to reduce our cycle time:)20:50
ttxanyway, that was more a heads-up than a full-fledged discussion. Please go to the threads if you have something to contribute20:50
lifelesswe'll get down to daily at some point20:50
sdagueyeh, lifeless's requirements management plan will definitely need to get fully implemented, because the coinstallability is going to be one of the key questions I think20:50
devanandadhellmann: i'll be looking to you & ttx for some guidance on _how_ to do it, as I'm not as experienced at release mgmt as either of you20:50
ttx#topic Move application to current projects up in tag page20:50
sdagueironic is definitely a good experimental starting point20:50
*** openstack changes topic to "Move application to current projects up in tag page (Meeting topic: tc)"20:50
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/18457620:50
ttxAdded this one to the agenda so that we can bypass jeblair's -120:50
ttxjeblair: Basically the tagged-projects directive reads data from projects.yaml so there is no duplication.20:50
dhellmanndevananda: we'll figure it out together :-)20:51
ttxso if you remove your -1 I'll proceed in approving20:51
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ttx#topic Workgroup reports20:51
*** openstack changes topic to "Workgroup reports (Meeting topic: tc)"20:51
jeblairttx: i will read the comments and attempt to understand them20:52
ttxjeblair: let us know if you still don't get it, we should have 2 min in Open discussion20:52
ttxOn the project team guide WG, we worked on setting up the repository20:52
ttxAnd announced the virtual sprint20:52
ttxI'll probably use some of my travel time next week to start writing stuff there20:52
ttxannegent_, flaper87: News on the communications WG ?20:52
annegent_got a blog post out last week20:53
jeblair#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/VirtualSprints#OpenStack_Project_Team_Guide20:53
annegent_post-summit wrap up20:53
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ttxannegent_: should we set up some opt-in proofreading?20:53
annegent_ttx: srsly I'd love help20:54
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flaper87that'd be great, indeed.20:54
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* russellb happy to help20:54
ttxannegent_: maybe post the draft of the text on openstack-tc ?20:54
ttxor some etherpad ?20:54
annegent_#link http://www.openstack.org/blog/2015/05/technical-committee-highlights-may-29-2015/20:54
flaper87russellb: we'll poke you :D20:54
flaper87ttx: we keep it on an etherpad20:54
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annegent_I still don't completely know if we're covering what we should, does anyone have feedback they've heard?20:54
ttxmaybe a reusable etherpad url then20:54
ttxannegent_: I think it covered what it needed to cover20:55
flaper87ttx: yup, we have that. lemme get it20:55
jeblairTags: TC20:55
lifelessthe compute kernel tag ting20:55
flaper87#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/next-tc-blog-post20:55
jeblairi got a chuckle out of that20:55
lifelessthats a thing I think we should get more engagement on20:55
ttxlifeless, markmcclain, jaypipes: you suggested an "architecture" WG, is it something you could set up ?20:55
flaper87and here we keep a list of topics to write on20:55
flaper87#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tc-communications-topics20:55
anteayaannegent_: the problem I had was the folks who were unhappy didn't communicate that until campaign time20:55
ttxlifeless, markmcclain, jaypipes: I called it the "Scuba WG" since I picture it deep-diving into projects, discovering issues and helping fix those20:55
flaper87we could merge those 2 etherpads20:55
anteayaannegent_: so no I haven't heard anything20:55
russellbflaper87: single etherpad ++20:56
lifelessttx: hah, sure.20:56
ttxlifeless: clarifying the mission of the WG would be great for a start20:56
jaypipesttx: unfortunately, my bandwidth won't allow me to really play a lead part in that one.20:56
flaper87russellb: roger, I think we can drop the later then20:56
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flaper87annegent_: ^ ?20:56
lifelessttx: I have some early stage thoughts here - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Lifeless/ArchitectureThoughts - haven't started on a WG per se yet20:56
russellbi hope everyone acts as a scuba anyway20:56
markmcclainttx: sure.. can collaborate with lifeless20:57
russellbseems most people here are deep diving into one area or another20:57
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russellbinterested in what the WG proposes though20:57
anteayarussellb: I'm tired of acting as scuba and getting no recognition for it20:57
ttxlifeless, markmcclain: ok, let's have something to elaborate on for next week20:57
ttx#topic Open discussion20:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:57
annegent_I'm good with etherpad drafts!20:57
ttxLooks like mordred is late in kicking off the M naming process (was supposed to start yesterday)20:57
russellbanteaya: not sure what recognition needs to be different than every other openstack contributor?20:57
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jeblairttx: i think he did though?20:57
ttxjeblair: maybe you could subst, or we'll just move the dates off20:57
annegent_anteaya: good input anyway20:57
anteayarussellb: okay20:57
ttxjeblair: oh, recently ?20:58
dhellmannttx: yeah, today20:58
anteayaannegent_: I'll let you know if I hear anything20:58
ttxGot contacted by the Japanese community which wanted to help suggest names, which is great news20:58
jeblair#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-June/065515.html20:58
ttxIn other news, we've been setting up a chair rotation on the cross-project meeting (Tuesdays at 21:00 UTC).20:58
jeblair#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Release_Naming/M_Proposals20:58
ttxI think it's essential so that we all experience the current system and come up with ways to improve it.20:58
ttxI did last week, Doug is doing this week. Who wants next week ?20:58
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annegent_flaper87: do you have bandwidth to write this week's post? Or do we punt to next week?20:58
markmcclainttx I can take a turn next week20:59
ttxmarkmcclain: cool, thx!20:59
jeblair(and there are already a lot of really good M names suggested, with nice explanations)20:59
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ttxI'll add a chair rotation paragraph on https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting20:59
flaper87annegent_: I can do it, I think we can decide depending on the topics we have20:59
ttxso people can add themselves20:59
russellbi saw MURICA proposed on twitter, as a follow up to liberty (which i don't think should be included, but i chuckled)20:59
flaper87but if there are enough, I'll give it a go20:59
jeblair(and some hilariously bad ones)20:59
ttx#action ttx to document chair rotation schedule on https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting20:59
fungisomeone has added MURICA to the wiki, yes21:00
russellboh dear21:00
annegent_flaper87: the kernel discussion is a good deep dive21:00
sdagueso... the TC gets to cull a bit right?21:00
jeblairit's safely in a special 'not meeting criteria' section21:00
ttxJapanese comlmunity suggested "Musashi" which is an old name of Tokyo AND aJapanese sword master21:00
fungisafely in the "ignore these suggestions" section21:00
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jeblairttx: yep, is on there21:00
russellb"noted, and duly ignored" list21:00
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jeblairsdague: no culling, but the tc would have to act to add murica since it doesn't meet criteria21:01
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sdaguejeblair: ok21:01
sdaguethat's good enough for me21:01
ttxAlright, time to end21:01
ttxThx everyone21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun  2 21:01:30 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-06-02-20.01.html21:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-06-02-20.01.txt21:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-06-02-20.01.log.html21:01
ttxdhellmann: floor is yours21:01
dhellmann#startmeeting cross-project21:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun  2 21:01:46 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is dhellmann. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cross-project)"21:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'cross_project'21:01
dhellmanncourtesy ping PTLs: adrian_otto boris-42 bswartz david-lyle devananda dims dtroyer emilienm flaper87 gordc hyakuhei isviridov21:01
dhellmanncourtesy ping PTLs: j^2 jeblair johnthetubaguy kiall loquacities mestery morganfainberg mtreinish nikhil_k notmyname rakhmerov21:01
dhellmanncourtesy ping PTLs: redrobot SergeyLukjanov slagle SlickNik smelikyan stevebaker thingee thinrichs ttx21:01
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boris-42dhellmann: hi there21:02
ttxwow, dhellmann is much more fficient at gathering the troops than I am.21:02
boris-42how is going guys?21:02
dhellmannttx: I should have added the tc, too, I guess21:03
dhellmannWe have some changes to the structure of this meeting, which we're putting into place starting this week.21:03
dhellmannttx described them in his announcement email, but I'll mention them again as we go along.21:03
ttxthey should still be around21:03
dhellmannwe have a relatively brief agenda today21:03
dhellmann#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting21:03
dhellmann#topic Horizontal teams announcements21:03
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ttxOn the release side...21:03
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dhellmannWe'll start out each week with announcements from cross-project teams (oslo, docs, infra, release, etc.).21:03
dhellmannWe usually want mailing list posts for these items, too, but this slot in the meeting is a good place to raise awareness of upcoming work that might affect other projects, or new initiatives.21:03
dhellmannSo, does anyone have anything to report this week?21:03
ttxWe are actively switching to "hands-off" tracking21:03
* dhellmann pastes slower than ttx types21:03
boris-42dhellmann: heh21:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Horizontal teams announcements (Meeting topic: cross-project)"21:03
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ttxi.e. reporting on what gets done rather than trying to predict21:03
boris-42dhellmann: I am preparing email with info about scaling up core teams=)21:03
ttxthat let us overhaul our 1:1 sync system and replace it with office hours21:03
dhellmannboris-42: I look forward to reading that21:04
ttx...and nobody showed up today (that is fine)21:04
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ttxdhellmann: did you get visits during your shift ?21:04
* dhellmann was busy trying to unbreak ironic anyway21:04
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dhellmannttx: no, not today21:04
stevebakerttx: what does office hours mean?21:04
ttxanyway, I'll work on the new version of http://status.openstack.org/release/21:04
dhellmannstevebaker: if you stop by #openstack-relmgr-office at least one member of the release management team will be present to answer questions21:04
dhellmannor otherwise chat21:05
ttxstevebaker: we maintain two time slots at 0800-1000 UTC and 1800-2000 UTC21:05
stevebakerI see, sounds good21:05
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dhellmannduring the release period, we'll use those time slots for syncing up as well, so they'll be more important around then21:05
ttxso if you have anything to discuss you can reach us there (except when we won't be around exceptionally)21:05
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sdagueso out of the QA team - there is some experimental work up to support external plugins in grenade - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/185050/ - I'm hoping that will let more projects in the big tent use the upgrade testing infrastructure21:05
ttxand yes, PTls are expected to report during office hours on milestone or release weeks21:05
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ttxPTLs or their release liaisons obviously21:06
dhellmannfrom oslo, I know we have one critical bug in oslo.messaging which we're working on landing for the ironic and tripleo teams -- we have a gate core dump issue we're working around21:06
sdagueI think we're going to try to get heat and ironic to be our test cases for if that works21:06
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stevebakersdague: is someone reworking the heat patch to be a plugin?21:07
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sdaguestevebaker: yeh, I was talking with ... sirushti this morning about it21:07
stevebakersdague: ok, i'll track progress on that21:07
sdagueI was out last week, so still digging back out21:07
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sdaguewe talked through it briefly, I'll hopefully be able to provide a bit more guidance next week once I get a few things off my plate21:08
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dhellmannif no other cross-project teams have announcements, we'll move on...21:08
sdagueI'd like to get that all done and in by L121:08
loquacitiesdocs are starting on RST conversion21:08
redrobotsdague barbican is also interested in Grenade testing21:09
dhellmannloquacities: nice!21:09
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sdagueredrobot: cool, pop into #openstack-qa and hopefully we can help get you rolling with external plugin support as well21:09
loquacitieswe're doing install guide, cloud admin guide, and ha guide this time around21:09
j^2loquacities: dang, that’s great news!21:09
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fungioh, and your manuals finally branched for kilo21:10
loquacitiesyep yep21:10
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elmikothe api-wg has a guideline up for our merge process that involves our process for announcing upcoming guidelines, #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186836/21:10
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boris-42sdague: btw the another way for upgrade/HA testing will be multiscenario load support in Rally21:11
dhellmannloquacities: the that plugin documentation tool I mentioned at the summit has landed in stevedore: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/stevedore/sphinxext.html21:11
boris-42sdague: so we can call grenade + load simultaneously21:11
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boris-42sdague: and ensure that it actually works (like nova supports nova downtime upgrades) and so on21:11
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dhellmannok, let's move on21:12
dhellmann#topic Update the API WG merge process for Liberty21:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Update the API WG merge process for Liberty (Meeting topic: cross-project)"21:12
dhellmann#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186836/21:13
dhellmannetoews, do you want to tell us about this?21:13
elmikooh, sorry i jumped the gun on that one21:13
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elmikoetoews is away, i'm standing in for him21:13
dhellmannah, hi, elmiko21:13
elmikowe basically, have a better defined process for how we will migrate proposed guidelines from the voting process into the "for real" guidelines21:13
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elmikoit involves a freeze period, once we are happy, and then alerting the PTL/CPL about the changes for a final period of voting21:14
elmikothis will be announced on the ML, and will be 1 week of freeze21:14
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elmikohopefully, we'll get feedback from interested parties if things need to change or are unacceptable21:14
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elmikoand once the freeze is over, we will merge the guidelines into our official repo21:14
elmikothere might be a few minor details i missed, but i would love if anyone has comments on the process #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186836/21:15
dhellmannwould it be useful to add those sorts of things to the agenda for this meeting, too?21:15
dhellmannat least to raise awareness, even if we don't discuss them here21:15
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elmikoyea, that's a good idea. we could certainly list the reviews that are in freeze currently during the meeting21:15
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dhellmanndoes anyone have questions for elmiko?21:16
dhellmannok, then21:17
dhellmann#topic Vertical teams announcements21:17
dhellmannThis is another recurring section of the meeting, meant to let vertical teams make announcements.21:17
dhellmannAgain, we want to have mailing list posts for topics that are mentioned here, but consider this another means of communication.21:17
dhellmannSo, does anyone have any big plans they need/want to share this week?21:17
*** openstack changes topic to "Vertical teams announcements (Meeting topic: cross-project)"21:17
dhellmannthanks, elmiko21:17
dhellmanna good example here is the ironic team's plan to move to intermediate releases21:18
dhellmannit's early in the cycle, so there may not be much to talk about, yet21:19
sdagueso... not an announcement, but a thing we should probably get cross team socialized more21:19
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jungleboyjsdague: ++21:19
sdaguethe dynamic policy ideas out of keystone are really cool, but have a lot of implications21:19
dhellmannah, yeah, I saw both of those email threads cross in the ether just before the meeting21:19
sdagueI had some good chats with jamielenox and morganfainberg at summit, but I think we should get that into a more cross project discussion mode sooner rather than later21:19
j^2this might be relevant, but the Chef team has discovered upstream packaging bugs with libvirt with 14.04 and the RDO c7 repo breaking due to an API issue, has anyone else seen this with the distress?21:19
sdaguebecause it's more than just a keystone thing21:19
redrobotdhellmann what is a "vertical" team?21:19
morganfainbergsdague: ++21:20
sdagueit's going to impact the whole world21:20
dhellmannmorganfainberg, ayoung-meeting: what's the plan to get the policy discussion stuff synced up with the other projects?21:20
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johnthetubaguy+1 has an interesting chat about policy, and its almost perfect timing for nova given the v2.1 changes, and having policy in flux at the moment21:20
fungiredrobot: anything that's not a "horizontal" team21:20
morganfainbergdhellmann: ayoung-meeting just sent a ML topic to setup a x-project and/or subteam21:20
dhellmannredrobot: docs, infra, oslo, release, etc. are "cross project" but nova, cinder, etc. are vertical -- make sense?21:20
sdaguemorganfainberg: ok, cool, I'm a couple hours delayed on that21:20
morganfainbergdhellmann: this was my recommendation so we can get more than keystone involved.21:20
redrobotdhellmann fungi ack21:20
morganfainbergsdague: yeah :) that was from the keystone meeting earlier today.21:21
dhellmannmorganfainberg: yeah, I saw something about a trello board and eastern time zone meetings21:21
stevemarredrobot, horizon teams are teams horizon, oslo, osc (imo)21:21
j^2dhellmann: oh thanks for that clarification21:21
stevemarblah... horizontal*21:21
morganfainbergdhellmann: trying to get it more visible. The ML and getting a real meeting would be good.21:21
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dhellmannmorganfainberg: ++21:21
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dhellmanntrello looks like a nice organizing tool, but having to request permission to participate felt off-putting21:22
jrollI'm trying to get the informational spec for ironic's release model finished up this week, based on ML and review feedback21:22
jrollso we can move to it21:22
morganfainbergdhellmann: I plan on keeping pushing ayoung-meeting that way and the others from keystone. It needs to be a more than keystone initiative.21:22
dhellmannjroll: ++21:22
bknudsonone question that came up in the keystone meeting is whether a new project like the policy server belongs under keystone...21:22
dhellmannmorganfainberg: good, I agree21:22
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bknudsonor whether it should be part of the "big tent" openstack21:23
ttxsteveamr: horizontal = RelMgt, QA, Docs, Infra, I18N... teams that work with all the vertical projects21:23
krotscheckDoes javascript count as a vertical or as a horizontal? :)21:23
dhellmannbknudson: good question. Another is, should there be a policy server?21:23
fungidhellmann: yeah, trello is not free software, but there are free software kanban boards like trello21:23
morganfainbergYeah is it under the big tent or keystone's corner of the big tent.21:23
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morganfainbergWas the question.21:23
ttxstevemar: vertical = anything else (Nova, Swift, Keystone...)21:23
jrollkrotscheck: is JS a project now? :P21:23
ttxHorizon is a bit of a diagonal21:23
ayoung-meetingI want it to be more than Keystone21:24
morganfainbergttx: I like that description of horizon ;)21:24
krotscheckjroll: It's a state of mind, really.21:24
david-lyleup and to the right21:24
dhellmannfungi: ok, maybe if this team wants to experiment they can talk to infra about helping to stand something like that up?21:24
fungihorizon protrudes in the z axis21:24
ttxdavid-lyle: top-right quadrant maybe21:24
sdagueayoung-meeting: so instead of hiding things in a subgroup meeting can we just discuss straight on the mailing list?21:24
sdagueit would actually be kind of cool for openstack-dev to have... development discussions :)21:24
ayoung-meetingsdague, there are so many details, but I am happy to do so21:24
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fungidhellmann: yep. it would be worth starting a discussion anyway21:25
dhellmannsdague: ++21:25
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dhellmannfungi: I might even be OK with experimenting with trello to see if the "a tool like that" is worth investigating21:25
sdagueayoung-meeting: yes, but details need to be turned into text anyway, and discussion via email seems good at this point, also to keep it so that more people can participate without being at a meeting21:25
dhellmannbut long term, we'd want to host something with better access controls21:25
ayoungdhellmann, I'm still mixed, but I needed *something*21:26
dhellmann(better in terms of integration)21:26
fungidhellmann: yep. it's a reasonable experiment21:26
dhellmannayoung: understood21:26
ayoungso, I think there are two parts:21:26
ayoungone is mechanism, which is the easy part21:26
stevemarttx, yes, forgot to put etc... after naming a few horizontal projects :)21:26
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ayoungthe second is getting the story straight across all the projects21:26
johnthetubaguydhellmann: I have seen jira plugins do a decent trello board, and get free licences for open source projects, I could dig out details if thats useful at some point21:26
fungidhellmann: i want to say the tripleo team did some similar experimentation with trello with the idea that it if worked out then we could look at running a free alternative kanban board21:26
ayounglets focus on that part happening in the mailing list21:26
johnthetubaguydhellmann: but you know that opens a big can of worms we might want to leave shut21:27
dhellmannayoung: it sounds like nova may have some new requirements for policy, too21:27
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fungijohnthetubaguy: free licenses for open source projects does not mean free as in speech software, that's just free as in beer21:27
ayoungfungi, ++21:27
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy: yeah, we might not have an infra team any more if we ask them to deploy jira :-)21:27
j^2fungi, i like the idea of a openstack hosted kanban, the Chef team would love that, we’ve tried trello also, it didn’t stick due to people having to sign up21:27
johnthetubaguyfungi: yep, thats true21:27
sdaguefungi: https://taiga.io/ is actually looking pretty good, and is open source21:27
johnthetubaguydhellmann: agreed, just putting that out there21:27
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy: yep :-)21:28
ttxManiphest actually has a kanban-style dashboard21:28
dhellmannttx: is that part of phabricator?21:28
sdaguethere's that as well :)21:28
ttxdhellmann: yes21:28
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dhellmannok, so maybe we want to start with that then21:28
fungisdague: yeah, taiga got discussed some at the summit in the storyboard replacement options session. there's a bit of analysis of its issues on the etherpad from that21:28
ttxdhellmann: that's the part of Phabricator that the infra team is considering deploying21:28
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sdagueanyway, away from tools, back to the policy thing. ayoung if you could get the details running on the list, because I think there are some distinct concerns on the where the validation points are going to be, how many more round trips to keystone, and where the sources of truth come from.21:29
fungiyeah, if we end up running phabricator's maniphest for task tracking, we get a kanban board for free21:29
ttxso if we move sufficiently fast there, that is the tool of choice21:29
dhellmannsdague: ++21:29
sdaguenone of which I think are irreconcilable, so it should be a constructive discussion21:30
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dhellmannok, I think that concludes the formal portion of our agenda this week21:31
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dhellmann#topic Open discussion21:31
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: cross-project)"21:31
ayoungsdague, yep.   I will post a cleaned up version of the Dynamic Policy overview21:31
dhellmannayoung: great, thanks21:31
dhellmanndoes anyone else have anything they would like to bring to the group this week?21:31
krotscheckJust a plug to get everyone looking at the CORS spec :) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/179866/21:31
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elmikoapi-wg is still looking for a few good CPLs ;) https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons#API_Working_Group21:32
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ttxkrotscheck: if it doesn't get more -1s I think we'll be able to move it to final approval stage21:32
devanandaI object to anyphing that cant include the letter f in its name on the grounds that it can't be that cool21:32
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krotscheckttx: That'd be great. Can I get a hard deadline for that? Without one, things tend to linger.21:32
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dhellmannyes, our general policy on specs is lazy consensus, so if you don't vote we assume you like it21:33
ttxkrotscheck: if by end of week it's still in lazy consensus state, I'll add it to TC meetign agenda for next week for final approval21:33
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ttxkrotscheck: so yes, time to call for last-minute reviews of that21:33
krotscheckOk, so I should send a message to the mailing list for final comments?21:34
dhellmannkrotscheck: maybe you should send an email to the -dev list21:34
boris-42dhellmann: is there instruction how to create WG?)21:34
ttxkrotscheck: or revive the previous thread with a "last minute call"21:34
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ttxkrotscheck: ISTR there was a thread somewhere already21:34
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dhellmannboris-42: we have http://governance.openstack.org/reference/new-projects-requirements.html but I'm not sure that's what you want -- what do you have in mind?21:35
jrollkrotscheck: this is where I say "coffeescript or gtfo", right?21:36
boris-42dhellmann: I would like to make a WG of operators that will work on big big parametrized rally task for real cloud validation21:36
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boris-42dhellmann: to check that cloud is really ready for production21:36
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boris-42dhellmann: there is about 5 operators for now21:37
boris-42there are*21:37
boris-42dhellmann: so what we should do ? create new stackforge project?21:37
dhellmannboris-42: ok, the first step is to start organizing the group and actually doing something, and then it can be considered as an official project21:37
dhellmanndo you need a git repo?21:37
ttxboris-42: if it's an Ops WG, fifieldt can help setting it up21:38
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boris-42dhellmann: we actually don't need repo (we can store this file/files in rally)21:38
ttxboris-42: those usually gather at Ops Midcycles/Summits for a working session21:38
boris-42ttx: yep it's fully Ops groups21:38
boris-42ttx: except probably me=)21:38
krotscheckjroll: You may not wake up if you do that :)21:38
ttxboris-42: so yeah, I would encourage you to reach out to fifieldt21:38
dhellmannboris-42: ++ to what ttx said21:39
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boris-42ttx: dhellmann ok thanks21:39
dhellmannok, any other topics for this week?21:39
ttxboris-42: they have plenty of WG there but I have no idea how they "created" them (other than by self-organizing and keeping Tom informed)21:39
boris-42dhellmann: [openstack-dev][all][infra][tc][ptl] Scaling up code review process (subdir cores)21:40
boris-42ttx: ok great I am going to email him=)21:40
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dhellmannboris-42: ok, I'll check that thread on the ML21:40
boris-42dhellmann: thanks21:40
dhellmannif we have nothing else, we can leave early21:41
ttxwe should21:41
dhellmannok, thank you all, and see you next week21:41
boris-42see you21:41
elmikothanks dhellmann !21:41
pshige see you21:41
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:41
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun  2 21:41:39 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:41
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cross_project/2015/cross_project.2015-06-02-21.01.html21:41
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openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cross_project/2015/cross_project.2015-06-02-21.01.txt21:41
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cross_project/2015/cross_project.2015-06-02-21.01.log.html21:41
redrobotthanks dhellmann21:41
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