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| Qiming | #startmeeting senlin | 13:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 10 13:00:45 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'senlin' | 13:00 |
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| Qiming | hello | 13:01 |
| zzxwill | Good evening. | 13:01 |
| Qiming | welcome back | 13:01 |
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| Qiming | o/, zzxwill | 13:01 |
| haiwei | hi | 13:01 |
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| zzxwill | Thanks. Crazy with my work recently:( | 13:02 |
| yanyanhu | hi | 13:02 |
| Qiming | hi, haiwei, in taipei? | 13:02 |
| elynn | Evening! | 13:02 |
| haiwei | back now | 13:02 |
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| Qiming | actually, I only manage to restore my work env 1 hour ago | 13:02 |
| Qiming | lost my laptop at austin airport | 13:02 |
| Qiming | anyway | 13:03 |
| lixinhui_ | hi | 13:03 |
| haiwei | :( | 13:03 |
| zzxwill | Oh, it was a pity. | 13:03 |
| elynn | Got a new one? | 13:03 |
| Qiming | the only item I have in mind is about newton work items | 13:03 |
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| Qiming | feel free to add topics to meeting agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda | 13:03 |
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| yanyanhu | Just add a topic about adding new workitems based on our discussion in summit | 13:04 |
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| Qiming | yes, that is also about newton work items | 13:04 |
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| yanyanhu | ok | 13:05 |
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| cschulz_ | Hi | 13:06 |
| Qiming_ | let's quickly go thru the current list | 13:06 |
| yanyanhu | hi, cschulz_ | 13:06 |
| yanyanhu | ok | 13:06 |
| Qiming_ | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-newton-workitems | 13:06 |
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| Qiming_ | scalability improvement, need to sync with xujun/junwei | 13:06 |
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| yanyanhu | some of them have been done and some should be obsoleted | 13:06 |
| Qiming_ | tempest test | 13:07 |
| Qiming_ | we are on track | 13:07 |
| yanyanhu | me and ethan are working on it | 13:07 |
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| yanyanhu | yep | 13:07 |
| elynn | yes | 13:07 |
| Qiming_ | basic support is there | 13:07 |
| elynn | We are working on API tests | 13:07 |
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| elynn | still need policy type list and profile type list and negative tests | 13:07 |
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| elynn | Do we need to add a gate job for it? | 13:07 |
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| elynn | in experimental | 13:08 |
| Qiming_ | sure, that would be nice | 13:08 |
| elynn | ok, I will work on it then. | 13:08 |
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| yanyanhu | may also need to rework the client to enable negative test. Or we can use exception not resp status to verify the result | 13:08 |
| Qiming_ | recorded | 13:08 |
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| elynn | About the negative tests for API | 13:09 |
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| yanyanhu | I mean the clusteringclient of tempest test | 13:09 |
| Qiming_ | need to test the status code at least, imo | 13:09 |
| elynn | do we only check the respond code? | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming_, yes | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | agree with this. So we may need to invoke raw_request directly | 13:10 |
| Qiming_ | yes | 13:10 |
| elynn | I think only check status code and respond body is enough for API negative tests. | 13:10 |
| yanyanhu | elynn, yes | 13:11 |
| Qiming_ | if we are bringing in senlinclient into this, it looks then more like a functional test of senlinclient, instead of an API test of the server | 13:11 |
| Qiming_ | so.. benchmarking | 13:11 |
| elynn | Existing client can not return a bad status code? | 13:11 |
| yanyanhu | basic support has been done | 13:11 |
| yanyanhu | in rally side | 13:11 |
| Qiming_ | lixinhui_, any update? | 13:12 |
| yanyanhu | will work on some simplest test case based on it | 13:12 |
| yanyanhu | but maybe not now | 13:12 |
| lixinhui_ | Qiming | 13:12 |
| lixinhui_ | is it about benchmarking? | 13:13 |
| yanyanhu | elynn, nope, the failure will be caught by rest client of tempest lib and converted to exception | 13:13 |
| Qiming_ | I'm wondering if bran and xinhui has done some experiments on engine/api stress test | 13:13 |
| lixinhui_ | we are | 13:13 |
| elynn | yanyanhu, okay, I got your point... | 13:13 |
| yanyanhu | :) | 13:13 |
| lixinhui_ | but | 13:13 |
| lixinhui_ | we are bottlenecked by nova | 13:14 |
| Qiming_ | still need to overcome the scalability issue of oslo.messaging? | 13:14 |
| lixinhui_ | not really about oslo | 13:14 |
| lixinhui_ | but nova | 13:14 |
| Qiming_ | nova api rate-limit? | 13:14 |
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| yanyanhu | oh, about this topics, I think there should be some performance improvement benefit from lastet scheduler rework | 13:14 |
| lixinhui_ | something like that | 13:15 |
| yanyanhu | I mean the performance of senlin engine | 13:15 |
| lixinhui_ | we may try to resolve it at driver layer | 13:15 |
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| lixinhui_ | from product env | 13:15 |
| lixinhui_ | we have rally and heat based | 13:15 |
| Qiming_ | okay, we need some rough numbers using both the fake driver and the real one | 13:15 |
| lixinhui_ | stress tests | 13:15 |
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| yanyanhu | Qiming_, agree | 13:15 |
| lixinhui_ | but that will depends on if we need bring in senlin into this test env | 13:16 |
| Qiming_ | yes, it would be nice to know senlin has scalability issue or not | 13:17 |
| Qiming_ | the earlier the better | 13:17 |
| lixinhui_ | Bran has tried with simulated one | 13:17 |
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| Qiming_ | maybe we can paste the numbers on senlin wiki? | 13:17 |
| lixinhui_ | and found that no up limit on the | 13:17 |
| lixinhui_ | one engine | 13:18 |
| lixinhui_ | test | 13:18 |
| lixinhui_ | but parallel tests will need more time | 13:18 |
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| yanyanhu | maybe I should implement a basic rally plugin for senlin cluster and node operation to support this test | 13:18 |
| Qiming_ | okay | 13:18 |
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| yanyanhu | lixinhui_, if you guys need it, please just tell me | 13:18 |
| lixinhui_ | not really now | 13:18 |
| Qiming_ | I see, so there is a dependency | 13:18 |
| lixinhui_ | thanks yanyanhu | 13:18 |
| yanyanhu | no problem | 13:19 |
| lixinhui_ | we will keep working on multiple engine simulted driver test | 13:19 |
| Qiming_ | or these two threads can go in parallel | 13:19 |
| Qiming_ | cool | 13:19 |
| Qiming_ | please check if we can record these "baseline" numbers into senlin wiki: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Senlin | 13:20 |
| lixinhui_ | sure | 13:20 |
| Qiming_ | Rally side | 13:20 |
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| yanyanhu | basic support for senlin in rally has been done. Will start to work on plugin | 13:20 |
| Qiming_ | we are still about to commit rally test cases to rally project? | 13:21 |
| yanyanhu | will start from basic cluster operations | 13:21 |
| Qiming_ | by plug-in, you mean we will be hosting the rally test cases? | 13:21 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming_, we can if we want to I think | 13:21 |
| yanyanhu | to hold the test jobs | 13:22 |
| Qiming_ | what's the suggestion from rally team? | 13:22 |
| yanyanhu | they sugguest us to contribute the plugin to rally repo | 13:22 |
| yanyanhu | which I think makes sense | 13:22 |
| yanyanhu | for those jobs, we can hold it in senlin repo I think | 13:22 |
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| Qiming_ | ... jobs are not modelled as plugins? | 13:23 |
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| yanyanhu | no, jobs means those job description file :) | 13:23 |
| Qiming_ | what is this then? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/301522/ | 13:23 |
| yanyanhu | those yaml or json file | 13:23 |
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| yanyanhu | Qiming_, those jobs are used as example to verify the plugin :) | 13:24 |
| Qiming_ | okay, makes sense | 13:24 |
| yanyanhu | more jobs should be defined per our test requirement | 13:24 |
| yanyanhu | which I guess should be hold by ourselves | 13:24 |
| Qiming_ | that is fine | 13:24 |
| Qiming_ | pls help make that plugin work so others may help contribute job definitions etc. | 13:25 |
| yanyanhu | sure | 13:26 |
| yanyanhu | will work on it | 13:26 |
| Qiming_ | health management | 13:26 |
| Qiming_ | em, a huge topic indeed | 13:26 |
| lixinhui_ | is trying the linux HA | 13:26 |
| Qiming_ | for health detection? | 13:26 |
| Qiming_ | or recovery, or both? | 13:27 |
| lixinhui_ | wanna Qiming_ to share more picture in your mind | 13:27 |
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| Qiming_ | you mean photo from San Antonio? | 13:27 |
| lixinhui_ | based on dicussion with adam and DD | 13:27 |
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| lixinhui_ | fencing | 13:27 |
| lixinhui_ | nowdays | 13:27 |
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| lixinhui_ | with CentOS | 13:27 |
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| lixinhui_ | VM | 13:27 |
| Qiming_ | got it | 13:28 |
| lixinhui_ | but you know | 13:28 |
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| lixinhui_ | just wanna to know more picture | 13:28 |
| Qiming_ | need to spend sometime on the specs and the etherpad | 13:28 |
| lixinhui_ | about the HA story | 13:28 |
| lixinhui_ | yes | 13:28 |
| Qiming_ | we cannot cover all HA requirement in our very first step | 13:28 |
| Qiming_ | we may not be able to cover them all in future | 13:29 |
| lixinhui_ | from presentation of Adam and DD | 13:29 |
| Qiming_ | need to focus on some typical usage scenarios | 13:29 |
| lixinhui_ | They hope to leverage Senlin on Recover and | 13:29 |
| lixinhui_ | fecing | 13:29 |
| lixinhui_ | fencing | 13:29 |
| Qiming_ | right | 13:29 |
| lixinhui_ | but is that assumed design by ourselves? | 13:30 |
| Qiming_ | so ... let's focus on the user story then | 13:30 |
| cschulz_ | What is your thought, that HM will create events that may trigger cluster actions based on cluster policies? | 13:30 |
| lixinhui_ | yes | 13:30 |
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| Qiming_ | we will build the story step by step | 13:31 |
| lixinhui_ | that is the recover part | 13:31 |
| Qiming_ | first step is check/recover mechanism, the very basic ones | 13:31 |
| Qiming_ | and fencing may become part of the recover process | 13:31 |
| cschulz_ | So there probably also needs to be policy like things in HM that defines how the health of a cluster is assessed? | 13:32 |
| Qiming_ | second step is to try introduce some intelligence on failure detection | 13:32 |
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| yanyanhu | health check and failure recovery can be two workitems in parallel I guess? | 13:32 |
| Qiming_ | third step is to link the pieces together using some sample health policies | 13:32 |
| lixinhui_ | actually I do not think we should do many check things | 13:33 |
| Qiming_ | yes, guess so | 13:33 |
| cschulz_ | agreed, health checking is independent of what actions you take when you've made an assessment | 13:33 |
| Qiming_ | if users don't like the health policy, we still provide some basic APIs for them to do cluster-check, cluster-recover [--with-fence], etc. | 13:33 |
| cschulz_ | Actually that is where I'd start | 13:34 |
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| Qiming_ | user may don't like the way we do health checking, still, they can do cluster-recover by triggering that operation from their software/service | 13:34 |
| cschulz_ | Then add some basic mechanisms for those who just want simple | 13:34 |
| Qiming_ | right | 13:34 |
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| Qiming_ | I cannot assume we understand all usage scenarios | 13:35 |
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| Qiming_ | :) I was challenged by linux-ha author during my presentation --- how do you detect application failure? | 13:36 |
| cschulz_ | And your answer was? | 13:36 |
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| Qiming_ | it is a huge space, we cannot assume we know all the answers | 13:36 |
| Qiming_ | application failure detection is currenly out of senlin's scope | 13:36 |
| cschulz_ | Agreed! | 13:37 |
| lixinhui_ | yes | 13:37 |
| haiwei | I think so | 13:37 |
| lixinhui_ | that is his anwser | 13:37 |
| lixinhui_ | from this | 13:37 |
| Qiming_ | there are plenty of software doing application monitoring, use them | 13:37 |
| lixinhui_ | I do not think we can understand the use case today | 13:37 |
| Qiming_ | but we can start from the basics | 13:37 |
| lixinhui_ | or the design on the loop of check and recover | 13:37 |
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| yanyanhu | so the key is how to leverge those monitoring tools/services | 13:38 |
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| lixinhui_ | but trying to provide some basic investment | 13:38 |
| yanyanhu | to detect failure of node/app happened in senlin cluster | 13:38 |
| lixinhui_ | on the choice of failure proceing | 13:38 |
| Qiming_ | we leave choices to users, though we do provide some basic support to simple cases | 13:38 |
| lixinhui_ | processing | 13:38 |
| lixinhui_ | even today | 13:39 |
| lixinhui_ | masakari | 13:39 |
| lixinhui_ | 's evacuate | 13:39 |
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| Qiming_ | recover a heat stack is completely different from recovering a nova server | 13:39 |
| lixinhui_ | can not work well with all guest OS and hypervisor | 13:39 |
| Qiming_ | you are already onto masakari? | 13:39 |
| lixinhui_ | tries some that function of masakari | 13:39 |
| lixinhui_ | need to investigate more | 13:40 |
| Qiming_ | ... big thanks! | 13:40 |
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| lixinhui_ | :) | 13:40 |
| cschulz_ | masakari is new to me. Will investigate | 13:40 |
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| lixinhui_ | it has a vagrant and chef deployer, cschulz | 13:41 |
| Qiming_ | for HA support, let's focus on planning | 13:41 |
| lixinhui_ | yes | 13:41 |
| yanyanhu | https://github.com/ntt-sic/masakari | 13:41 |
| yanyanhu | this one? | 13:41 |
| Qiming_ | build stories on the etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-ha-recover | 13:41 |
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| Qiming_ | yanyanhu, yes | 13:41 |
| Qiming_ | moving on | 13:41 |
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| Qiming_ | documentation side | 13:42 |
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| Qiming_ | I'm working on API documentation in RST | 13:42 |
| Qiming_ | hopefully, it can be done soon, then I can switch to tutorial/wiki docs | 13:43 |
| yanyanhu | will provide some help on it | 13:43 |
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| Qiming_ | great, yanyanhu | 13:43 |
| Qiming_ | container support | 13:43 |
| Qiming_ | haiwei, maybe we can check in the container profile as an experimental one | 13:43 |
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| haiwei | you mean just create one first? | 13:44 |
| Qiming_ | yes, very simple one is okay | 13:44 |
| Qiming_ | it has to work, it has to be clean | 13:44 |
| Qiming_ | we can improve it gradually | 13:44 |
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| haiwei | ok, I will submit some patches for it | 13:45 |
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| Qiming_ | then we can start looking into the specific issues when CLUSTERING containers together | 13:45 |
| Qiming_ | at the same time, we will watch the progress of the Higgins project: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/313935/ | 13:46 |
| haiwei | yes, I noticed it recently | 13:46 |
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| Qiming_ | if that one grows fast, we can spend less and less energy at this layer | 13:47 |
| Qiming_ | just focusing on the clustering aspect of the problem | 13:47 |
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| yanyanhu | agree :) | 13:47 |
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| Qiming_ | that's why I think a simple profile suffices | 13:47 |
| haiwei | ok | 13:47 |
| Qiming_ | for us to think about the next layer | 13:47 |
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| Qiming_ | "tickless" scheduler is out | 13:48 |
| Qiming_ | that is great!!! | 13:48 |
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| yanyanhu | :) | 13:49 |
| yanyanhu | it do improve the efficiency of our scheduler | 13:49 |
| Qiming_ | any news from zaqar investigation? | 13:49 |
| yanyanhu | very appreciated your suggestion in summit :P | 13:49 |
| lixinhui_ | about event and notice mechanism | 13:49 |
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| cschulz_ | I've been very distracted since week of Austin summit, so not much progress. | 13:50 |
| lixinhui_ | I do not know if that is related to the scenario discussion on summit | 13:50 |
| lixinhui_ | but vmware PM | 13:50 |
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| lixinhui_ | on customisable reaction | 13:50 |
| Qiming_ | okay | 13:50 |
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| Qiming_ | lixinhui_, I was thinking of this scenario | 13:51 |
| lixinhui_ | or just related to the processing of action | 13:51 |
| cschulz_ | Can someone give me a brief on the scenario discussion? | 13:51 |
| Qiming_ | for vmware vm monitoring | 13:51 |
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| Qiming_ | senlin can emit events for vmware to listen | 13:51 |
| Qiming_ | so that it will know which node belongs to which cluster | 13:52 |
| lixinhui_ | that will be great | 13:52 |
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| Qiming_ | it will have some knowledge to filter out irrelevant vms when doing maths on metrics | 13:52 |
| lixinhui_ | yes | 13:52 |
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| lixinhui_ | that is desired by mix deployment env | 13:53 |
| Qiming_ | okay, we can work on a design first | 13:53 |
| Qiming_ | a multi-string configuration option for event backend | 13:53 |
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| Qiming_ | we only have database backend implemented | 13:53 |
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| Qiming_ | we can add http, message queue as backends | 13:54 |
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| Qiming_ | detailed design is still needed | 13:55 |
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| Qiming_ | em... only 5 mins left | 13:55 |
| lixinhui_ | Okay | 13:55 |
| cschulz_ | Are events predefined? Or can a stack/cluster define events it wants? | 13:55 |
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| Qiming_ | yes, cschulz | 13:55 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming_, maybe we postpone the second topic to next meeting | 13:55 |
| yanyanhu | about adding new workitems based on discussion in summit | 13:55 |
| Qiming_ | ok | 13:55 |
| Qiming_ | there are followups wrt the design summit sessions | 13:56 |
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| Qiming_ | need to dump them into TODO items | 13:56 |
| Qiming_ | and those items will be migrated to this etherpad for progress checking | 13:56 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:57 |
| Qiming_ | for example, profile/policy validation | 13:57 |
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| Qiming_ | that means one or two apis to be added | 13:57 |
| Qiming_ | when someone has cycles to work on it, we can add it to the etherpad | 13:57 |
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| Qiming_ | the same applies to all other topics we have discussed during the summit | 13:57 |
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| lixinhui_ | cool | 13:58 |
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| Qiming_ | that's all from my side | 13:58 |
| Qiming_ | two mins left for free discussions | 13:58 |
| Qiming_ | #topic open topics | 13:58 |
| lixinhui_ | that was good discussion there in Austin | 13:58 |
| yanyanhu | yep :) | 13:59 |
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| cschulz_ | Anyone can send me anything they would like proofread for English. | 13:59 |
| Qiming_ | okay, we successfully used up the 1 hour slot, :) | 13:59 |
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| cschulz_ | bye | 13:59 |
| Qiming_ | thanks, cschulz_ | 13:59 |
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| Qiming_ | thanks everyone for joining | 14:00 |
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| Qiming_ | #endmeeting | 14:00 |
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| haiwei | thanks | 14:00 |
| haiwei | bye | 14:00 |
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| yanyanhu | bye | 14:00 |
| * regXboi finds a corner in the room and quietly snores | 14:00 | |
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| Qiming_ | cannot end meeting | 14:00 |
| lixinhui_ | .. | 14:00 |
| Qiming_ | nickname occupied I think | 14:01 |
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| Sam-I-Am | hello networking nerds | 14:01 |
| pcm_ | o/ | 14:02 |
| jlibosva | o/ | 14:02 |
| Qiming_ | #endmeeting | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:02 | |
| vikram___ | hi | 14:02 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 10 14:02:04 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-05-10-13.00.html | 14:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-05-10-13.00.txt | 14:02 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-05-10-13.00.log.html | 14:02 |
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| haleyb | hi | 14:02 |
| annp | Hello | 14:02 |
| hichihara | hi | 14:02 |
| vikram___ | hi | 14:02 |
| namnh | hi | 14:02 |
| sbelous_ | hi | 14:02 |
| yamahata | hello | 14:02 |
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| njohnston | o/ | 14:02 |
| dasm | nerds? who? where? | 14:02 |
| HenryG | hey neutrinos | 14:02 |
| akamyshnikova | hi | 14:02 |
| xiaohhui | hello | 14:02 |
| amotoki | hi | 14:02 |
| blogan | hello | 14:02 |
| regXboi | moo | 14:02 |
| HenryG | #startmeeting networking | 14:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 10 14:02:38 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is HenryG. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:02 |
| hoangcx | Hi | 14:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking' | 14:02 |
| mestery | o/ | 14:02 |
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| njohnston | o/ | 14:02 |
| rtheis | o/ | 14:02 |
| salv-orlando | aloha | 14:03 |
| korzen__ | hello | 14:03 |
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| carl_baldwin | Hi | 14:03 |
| HenryG | Ihar is on vacation this week, and our intrepid PTL is still asleep as usual for this time. So I am chairing today. | 14:03 |
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| andreas_s | hi | 14:03 |
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| HenryG | #topic Announcements | 14:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:03 | |
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| HenryG | Summit session reports have been posted to the mailing list. | 14:04 |
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| HenryG | A list of links is here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings#Announcements_.2F_Reminders | 14:04 |
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| HenryG | For the Neutron stadium evolution there is a spec under review ... | 14:04 |
| HenryG | #link https://review.openstack.org/312199 | 14:05 |
| Sam-I-Am | its not controversial at all :) | 14:05 |
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| blogan | everyone is slowly coming around to it :) | 14:05 |
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| mestery | Kudos to armax for his work on that patch | 14:05 |
| obondarev_ | o/ | 14:06 |
| Sam-I-Am | yeah, its tough to write controversial stuff | 14:06 |
| Sam-I-Am | ask me how i know :) | 14:06 |
| amuller | we should deprecate the LB agent | 14:06 |
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| Sam-I-Am | amuller: yeah, and l3 ha. | 14:06 |
| amotoki | what does LB mean? | 14:06 |
| Sam-I-Am | dvr+ovs all the way | 14:06 |
| amuller | good idea | 14:06 |
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| amotoki | linux bridge? load balancer? | 14:06 |
| * Sam-I-Am runs away | 14:06 | |
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| amuller | amotoki: both | 14:06 |
| HenryG | LB = load balancer | 14:06 |
| njohnston | amuller: At first I read that as "deprecate the layer-eight agent". Now that would be a thing. | 14:07 |
| haleyb | Sam-I-Am: i was going to say dvr too :) | 14:07 |
| Sam-I-Am | sigh, we're all too fiesty this morning. i havent even had coffee yet. | 14:07 |
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| * regXboi continues chuckling in the background | 14:07 | |
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| HenryG | This is constructive. Let's move on. | 14:07 |
| HenryG | #topic Blueprints | 14:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:08 | |
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| HenryG | #link https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/newton-1 | 14:08 |
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| HenryG | Many on that list will not make N-1 methinks | 14:08 |
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| HenryG | Newton-1 milestone: http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html#n-1 | 14:08 |
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| HenryG | Remaining BPs will bump to N-2 after that | 14:09 |
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| HenryG | I would like to point out one BP/spec that will affect everyone pretty drastically ... | 14:09 |
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| HenryG | #link https://review.openstack.org/257362 | 14:10 |
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| korzen__ | rossella_s, in OVO we are still using the tenant_id | 14:10 |
| HenryG | This is the Keystone V3 adoption. It will (probably) rename all tenant_id columns to project_id. | 14:11 |
| rossella_s | korzen, we should take care of that | 14:11 |
| HenryG | Yes, OVO folks should pay close attention | 14:11 |
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| Sam-I-Am | HenryG: yeah, tenant needs to go | 14:11 |
| Sam-I-Am | it causes confusion in the docs | 14:11 |
| korzen | can we postpone the migration till OVO is adopted and do it in online migration? | 14:11 |
| HenryG | korzen: Please comment on the spec review | 14:12 |
| dasm | korzen: it was one of initial ideas. let's discuss (again) on spec. | 14:12 |
| amotoki | API/DB/OVO can migrate to project_id in different timing. OVO allows us to do so :) | 14:12 |
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| korzen | HenryG, will do | 14:12 |
| amotoki | what I am not sure is when we have online migration support. newton? | 14:12 |
| HenryG | amotoki: My guess is later | 14:13 |
| amotoki | but it should be discussed in the spec. | 14:13 |
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| korzen | HenryG, in Ocata or P-release | 14:13 |
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| HenryG | amotoki: We need to stop renaming things in the DB for online migration support | 14:13 |
| amotoki | :) | 14:14 |
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| HenryG | moving on ... | 14:15 |
| HenryG | #topic Bugs | 14:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:15 | |
| * regXboi wakes up | 14:15 | |
| HenryG | regXboi: but first ... | 14:15 |
| HenryG | Who wants to be Bug deputy for this week? | 14:15 |
| regXboi | while we wait for volunteers | 14:16 |
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| regXboi | the good news is that we have 0 critical bugs this week | 14:16 |
| dasm | \o/ | 14:16 |
| regXboi | the bad news is that we have 49 high importance bugs and 117 bugs in the "new" state | 14:16 |
| regXboi | so... needs to see about getting some more triage done :( | 14:17 |
| amotoki | how many new bugs without tags do we have? | 14:17 |
| HenryG | Note: *Everyone* is welcome to pitch in and help with bugs any time. | 14:18 |
| regXboi | that's a tough query | 14:18 |
| amotoki | just from my curiosity. never mind. | 14:18 |
| haleyb | sorry, was asleep, i can volunteer, week is almost half-over, right? :) | 14:18 |
| regXboi | we can query for any tags, or all tags, but not *no* tags | 14:18 |
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| regXboi | HenryG: there we go... | 14:19 |
| * regXboi passes golden fly swatter to haleyb | 14:19 | |
| amotoki | one thing to note is that if a bug is tagged someone familiar with an area can triage the bug. | 14:19 |
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| HenryG | #action haleyb is Bug Deputy for May 09 week | 14:19 |
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| HenryG | thanks haleyb ! | 14:19 |
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| regXboi | because we don't have any critical bugs, I'm done - let's move on | 14:20 |
| * regXboi drops mic | 14:20 | |
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| HenryG | Any Bug Deputy volunteers for next week? May 16. | 14:20 |
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| hichihara | I will do next week | 14:21 |
| HenryG | Thanks hichihara ! | 14:21 |
| HenryG | #action hichihara is bug deputy for week of May 16 | 14:22 |
| hichihara | :) | 14:22 |
| Tung_ | Hi all | 14:22 |
| HenryG | #topic Gate Stability | 14:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Gate Stability (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:22 | |
| HenryG | A reminder to please keep an eye on ... | 14:23 |
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| HenryG | #link http://grafana.openstack.org/dashboard/db/neutron-failure-rate | 14:23 |
| HenryG | The functional job still needs some love | 14:23 |
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| HenryG | I do know amuller and jlibosva have been trying | 14:24 |
| haleyb | the failure rate in the gate queue did fall-off sometime over night, from 25 to <5% | 14:24 |
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| amuller | HenryG: jlibosva actually foot the root cause late last night | 14:24 |
| jlibosva | yesterday we finally found the root cause now we need to come up with fix | 14:24 |
| amuller | found* | 14:24 |
| HenryG | Yay! | 14:24 |
| rossella_s | great!! | 14:24 |
| amotoki | :) | 14:25 |
| jlibosva | even though we know what's happening I'm still not able to reproduce locally :( | 14:25 |
| rossella_s | jlibosva, can you give us more details or it's a very long story? | 14:25 |
| jlibosva | I updated launchpad - the short story is that ovsdb native interface stops responding to periodical echoes sent from ovsdb server | 14:26 |
| amuller | jlibosva: can you link the comment you added to the bug? I'm not sure everyone know what bug is responsible for the functional job's failure rate | 14:26 |
| * jlibosva searches | 14:27 | |
| jlibosva | https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1567668/comments/15 | 14:27 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1567668 in neutron "Functional job sometimes hits global 2 hour limit and fails" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Jakub Libosvar (libosvar) | 14:27 |
| Sam-I-Am | regXboi: ^ | 14:27 |
| Sam-I-Am | captain ovs :) | 14:27 |
| * regXboi looks | 14:27 | |
| amuller | I'm confident that between otherwiseguy and jlibosva they can resolve the issue | 14:28 |
| regXboi | oh lord | 14:28 |
| regXboi | turn that probe stuff off | 14:28 |
| regXboi | just turn it off | 14:28 |
| HenryG | Alright, great work jlibosva. Let's discuss further in the bug and the neutron channel. | 14:28 |
| rossella_s | thanks jlibosva | 14:29 |
| jlibosva | regXboi: can you please comment on launchpad? I wonder the impacts and don't want to steal precious time of this mtg :) | 14:29 |
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| HenryG | Other job failure rates need to be addressed ... | 14:29 |
| HenryG | http://grafana.openstack.org/dashboard/db/neutron-failure-rate?panelId=7&fullscreen | 14:29 |
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| HenryG | I have it on my plate to look into the PG job, but I haven't got far with it. | 14:30 |
| haleyb | HenryG: I have also seen IP allocation failures recently, don't know if anyone else has | 14:31 |
| HenryG | haleyb: might be a good idea to bring up in the L3 meeting? | 14:32 |
| regXboi | jlibosva: comments posted | 14:32 |
| jlibosva | regXboi: thank you :) | 14:32 |
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| regXboi | Sam-I-Am: captain ovs???? | 14:32 |
| HenryG | haleyb: a more focused group of people there perhaps | 14:32 |
| Sam-I-Am | regXboi: yeah :) | 14:32 |
| haleyb | HenryG: yeah, it doesn't seem agent-specific, i'll keep looking | 14:32 |
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| HenryG | OK | 14:33 |
| HenryG | Any other comments on the gate jobs? | 14:33 |
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| amotoki | does anyone follow up the status of ovo 1.9.0 issue? | 14:33 |
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| HenryG | I saw dims and garyk discussing it in the channel earlier | 14:34 |
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| amotoki | and i saw ajo jumped in. | 14:35 |
| HenryG | Something about reverting back to 1.8.0 I think. | 14:35 |
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| amotoki | at now upper-constraint.txt uses ovo 1.8.0 and the gate works. more investigation is ongoing. will catch up later. | 14:36 |
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| HenryG | thanks amotoki | 14:36 |
| HenryG | moving on | 14:37 |
| HenryG | #topic Docs | 14:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Docs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:37 | |
| Sam-I-Am | hello | 14:37 |
| HenryG | Note that the OpenStack docs policies and tooling are evolving. | 14:37 |
| HenryG | "Easing contributions to central documentation" by Sam-I-Am: | 14:37 |
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| HenryG | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/094390.html | 14:37 |
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| Sam-I-Am | trying to make your lives better | 14:38 |
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| HenryG | I think it's awesome. Please give feedback to Sam-I-Am there. | 14:38 |
| Sam-I-Am | also discussing how to split help strings into long and short descriptions so the config files can be shorter, but the auto-generated docs longer | 14:38 |
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| HenryG | Cool | 14:39 |
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| Sam-I-Am | and api doc discussions are ongoing on the ML | 14:39 |
| HenryG | Latest update to "getting API Docs off WADL and into RST": | 14:39 |
| HenryG | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/094472.html | 14:39 |
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| HenryG | amotoki is going to kick this off for Neutron | 14:39 |
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| Sam-I-Am | woo. we need updated api docs badly. | 14:40 |
| amotoki | once the initial import is merged, I think we need a api-ref sprint to clean up API ref. | 14:40 |
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| Sam-I-Am | but no one wanted to touch wadl, and i can see why | 14:40 |
| HenryG | yup | 14:41 |
| HenryG | Also, | 14:41 |
| amotoki | IIRC api-site repo review is now frozen. | 14:41 |
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| HenryG | Also, thanks to Sam-I-Am's efforts, the networking guide is getting more love this cycle. Please contribute where you can. | 14:43 |
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| Sam-I-Am | yep | 14:43 |
| Sam-I-Am | hopefully going to get a lot done in it | 14:43 |
| Sam-I-Am | no longer working on the install guide, so that frees up a lot of time | 14:43 |
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| HenryG | Any other info or questions on docs? | 14:45 |
| HenryG | #topic Client Transition | 14:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Client Transition (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:45 | |
| HenryG | This is more of an awareness notice | 14:46 |
| amotoki | there is no update this week. last week are holiday week in Japan and I just returned from the summit. | 14:46 |
| amotoki | I will prepare the update from next week. | 14:46 |
| amotoki | rtheis: anything? | 14:47 |
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| rtheis | amotoki: the devref should have the latest status based on summit | 14:47 |
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| rtheis | I have WIP patch sets started for OSC plugin enablement for python-neutronclient | 14:47 |
| HenryG | Please read up and familiarize yourself with the plan. Use "openstack network ..." instead of "neutron ..." with devstack and help to fill in the gaps when you notice them. | 14:47 |
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| amotoki | rtheis: agree | 14:48 |
| njohnston | +1 | 14:48 |
| rtheis | nothing else at this time | 14:48 |
| HenryG | Ping rtheis and amotoki if you want to help or need details. | 14:49 |
| amotoki | for all developers, let's use 'openstack network ...' in newton cycle and clarify the gap and let's fill it :) | 14:49 |
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| Sam-I-Am | isnt it actually 'openstack networking' ? | 14:49 |
| dasm | Sam-I-Am: nope. just "network" | 14:49 |
| Sam-I-Am | when referring to the service, at least | 14:50 |
| rtheis | FYI: there are some existing OSC patches, bp and bugs opened to fill in gaps. | 14:50 |
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| Sam-I-Am | oh, you're talking about the actual cli commands :) | 14:50 |
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| HenryG | rtheis: link to launcpad for OSC bugs? | 14:50 |
| * Sam-I-Am gets more coffee | 14:50 | |
| rtheis | looking... | 14:50 |
| dasm | Sam-I-Am: yep. OSC commands :) | 14:50 |
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| rtheis | https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-openstackclient/+bug/1545537 | 14:52 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1545537 in python-openstackclient "Enhancements to OS Network CRUD" [Medium,In progress] - Assigned to Reedip (reedip-banerjee) | 14:52 |
| amotoki | pending OSC reviews are found at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/osc-neutron-support | 14:52 |
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| rtheis | https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-openstackclient/+bug/1578819 | 14:53 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1578819 in python-openstackclient "Add network list filtering options" [Low,Confirmed] - Assigned to Deepti Ramakrishna (dramakri) | 14:53 |
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| vikram___ | rtheis: when subprojects should start CLI transition | 14:53 |
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| rtheis | vikram____: are you referring to *aaS? | 14:53 |
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| vikram___ | rtheis: networking-sfc and dynamic-routing .. both :) | 14:54 |
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| amotoki | vikram___: we first need to merge OSC plugin patch from rtheis. once it is merged, we can implement osc plugin for *aas and similar stuffs. | 14:54 |
| vikram___ | amotoki: so, when we can start ? | 14:54 |
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| vikram___ | amotoki: after N-1 | 14:54 |
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| amotoki | not decided, but i would like to start it around N-1. | 14:55 |
| rtheis | amotoki: that is correct..., anything in python-neutronclient with need plugin support first. Things outside python-neutronclient can start now | 14:55 |
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| vikram___ | amotoki, rtheis: got it .. thanks | 14:55 |
| HenryG | All right. Four minutes for ... | 14:56 |
| rtheis | here are WIP patches: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/309587/, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/309530/ and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/309515/ | 14:56 |
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| HenryG | #topic Open Discussion | 14:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:56 | |
| vikram___ | rtheis: I will have a look at those | 14:56 |
| hichihara | amotoki: This may be what you want about OVO issue https://review.openstack.org/#/c/307938/ | 14:56 |
| ivc_ | Hi all. I got some concerns about the current OVO concurrency model when interacting with the DB layer. I'd like to know if it should be discussed here or should I post it on the openstack-dev ML or somewhere else? | 14:56 |
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| HenryG | ivc_: ML and #openstack-neutron is good | 14:58 |
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| amotoki | hichihara: thanks :) I am just reading the logs. | 14:58 |
| hichihara | ivc_: +1 to dev-ML | 14:58 |
| ivc_ | ok. thanks | 14:58 |
| amotoki | ivc_: ML sounds better. | 14:58 |
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| HenryG | #endmeeting | 14:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 10 14:59:34 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-05-10-14.02.html | 14:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-05-10-14.02.txt | 14:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-05-10-14.02.log.html | 14:59 |
| HenryG | Thanks everyone! | 14:59 |
| akamyshnikova | bye | 14:59 |
| hichihara | bye | 14:59 |
| amotoki | thanks | 14:59 |
| annp | bye | 14:59 |
| dasm | see you | 14:59 |
| yamahata | bye | 14:59 |
| rossella_s | thanks HenryG for chairing | 14:59 |
| namnh | bye | 14:59 |
| sbelous_ | bye | 14:59 |
| rossella_s | bye | 15:00 |
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| ivc_ | bye | 15:00 |
| hoangcx | thanks HenryG, bye all | 15:00 |
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| blogan | bye | 15:00 |
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| carl_baldwin | blogan: stick around. :) | 15:00 |
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| blogan | hi | 15:00 |
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| blogan | :) | 15:00 |
| namnh | see you next meeting | 15:00 |
| mlavalle | yeah, don't run away blogan | 15:00 |
| carl_baldwin | hi | 15:00 |
| mlavalle | o/ | 15:01 |
| carl_baldwin | #startmeeting neutron_routed_networks | 15:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 10 15:01:00 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is carl_baldwin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_routed_networks' | 15:01 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Announcements | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:01 | |
| xiaohhui | hi | 15:01 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Neutron-Routed-Networks | 15:01 |
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| carl_baldwin | The segment CRUD patch merged! | 15:01 |
| blogan | hooray! | 15:01 |
| mlavalle | ++ | 15:01 |
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| carl_baldwin | I think my next two patches are getting pretty close too. | 15:02 |
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| carl_baldwin | I'm starting to see momentum pick up again since summit killed it a little. :) | 15:02 |
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| blogan | yep, well i haven't dove into the 3rd one yet too much, but the 2nd one is close | 15:02 |
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| carl_baldwin | We've got just 3 weeks until Newton-1 | 15:03 |
| carl_baldwin | #link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 15:03 |
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| carl_baldwin | blogan: Thanks for helping out with the feedback. I've almost got another PS to upload for that one. | 15:03 |
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| carl_baldwin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/288774/ | 15:03 |
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| carl_baldwin | Another announcement is that I created an etherpad to help myself and others to use the patches that are up. | 15:04 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/routed-provider-networks-notes | 15:05 |
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| rtheis | carl_baldwin: thanks for that pointer to etherpad | 15:05 |
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| carl_baldwin | rtheis: yw, I just noticed your question on my abandoned ML2 patch and responded there. Did you see it? | 15:05 |
| rtheis | carl_baldwin: I did see it, thanks | 15:05 |
| carl_baldwin | rtheis: good | 15:06 |
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| carl_baldwin | Basically, we'll leave the segment service plugin disabled by default for now. | 15:06 |
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| carl_baldwin | Any other announcements? | 15:07 |
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| carl_baldwin | I think I'd like to move the progress section of the meeting wiki to the etherpad to avoid having to update it in two places. | 15:08 |
| mlavalle | ++ | 15:08 |
| rtheis | sounds good | 15:08 |
| carl_baldwin | But, for today, I'll use the wiki to be sure I don't miss anything there. | 15:08 |
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| carl_baldwin | We've already touched on the first two sections of the wiki. The subnet / segment association patch is looking pretty good. | 15:09 |
| carl_baldwin | So ... | 15:09 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Nova Scheduler | 15:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Nova Scheduler (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:09 | |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: hi | 15:09 |
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| mlavalle | hi | 15:09 |
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| mlavalle | the generic pools resource spec is looking very good as far as approval | 15:10 |
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| mlavalle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/300176 | 15:10 |
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| mlavalle | it was discussed yesterday during the nova scheduler meeting | 15:10 |
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| mlavalle | the consensus is that it should merge this week | 15:11 |
| carl_baldwin | Great! | 15:11 |
| mlavalle | the routed networks spec follows after it | 15:11 |
| mlavalle | so we should be ready to address comments to it | 15:12 |
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| mlavalle | I also had yesterday an irc conversation with johnthetubaguy about the refactoring of "allocate_for_instance" to the conductor | 15:12 |
| carl_baldwin | I've kept an eye on it. It has been quiet so far. But, I'll continue to keep an eye on it. | 15:12 |
| carl_baldwin | If any of you notice comments, let me know of the activity. I miss a lot of gerrit emails. | 15:13 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: How did that go? | 15:13 |
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| mlavalle | the plan is that he will do the refactoring of the method itself. And then on top of that I will add the routed networks bits | 15:14 |
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| mlavalle | so I plan to review his code as soon as he puts it up and the start adding the routed networks pieces | 15:14 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: So, by the time you touch the code, the relevant parts will be running in the conductor with the 3-phase design? | 15:15 |
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| mlavalle | carl_baldwin: yeap | 15:15 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: great! | 15:15 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Does he have any kind of timeline in mind? | 15:15 |
| mlavalle | I was hoping johnthetubaguy might want to comment here... | 15:15 |
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| mlavalle | if he doesn't, i'll follow up with him with the timeline piece :-) | 15:16 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Thanks. | 15:16 |
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| mlavalle | that's all I have this week on this topic. I will continue monitoring the scheduler team meeting and John's patchsets | 15:17 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Would you mind updating the etherpad? | 15:17 |
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| carl_baldwin | ... especially when patches start showing up. | 15:17 |
| mlavalle | carl_baldwin: I will update it | 15:17 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Thanks! | 15:17 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Host / Segment Mapping | 15:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Host / Segment Mapping (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:18 | |
| mlavalle | hi again | 15:18 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: I've seen an update to your patch that I haven't fully reviewed. | 15:18 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: I will be sure to review it today. | 15:18 |
| mlavalle | this past week I made good progress with host segment mapping | 15:18 |
| mlavalle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/285548 | 15:19 |
| mlavalle | I don't consider it WIP anymore | 15:19 |
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| mlavalle | I think I have addressed the concerns about ML2 details spilling over | 15:19 |
| mlavalle | and also added unit tests, which are passing | 15:19 |
| mlavalle | the patchset is passing all the jenkins tests, except 1 | 15:20 |
| mlavalle | I have a conversation going on with HenryG about one test of allembic scripts | 15:20 |
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| blogan | ill be sure to review that today too | 15:20 |
| mlavalle | that test is failing me becasue I depend on a contract script | 15:20 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: I hit the same problem in my patch. | 15:21 |
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| mlavalle | so when I move my migration script to the contract directory, the test gets angry that I have a create table | 15:21 |
| HenryG | yep, this is getting tricky | 15:21 |
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| mlavalle | so I will work with HenryG to fix that. But other than that, the patchset is good | 15:22 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Oh, I didn't hit that error. | 15:22 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: I will review today. | 15:22 |
| HenryG | We may need to disable that test for a while | 15:22 |
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| HenryG | I need to speak to Ihar | 15:22 |
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| mlavalle | xiaohhui: thank you for your review. In summary, yes the idea is that we will process bridge mappings coming from all the in tree mechanism drivers | 15:23 |
| mlavalle | I will add unit tests for all of them today | 15:23 |
| carl_baldwin | HenryG: Ya, we may need to relax the constraints a bit for Newton. | 15:23 |
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| xiaohhui | ok, thanks | 15:23 |
| mlavalle | Finally, I made excellent progress with the SR-IOV mechanism river: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/312289/ | 15:24 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Excellent. This work is just in time because my IPAM work needs it. I will work on integrating yours in to mine soon. | 15:24 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Let's get that merged. I think it has +1s from the right people. | 15:24 |
| mlavalle | That patchset is good to merge. I got +1's from irenab and moshele, who are the SR-IOV czar's | 15:24 |
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| carl_baldwin | HenryG: You're around, would you mind kicking it in? It isn't too bad to review and has all the right +1s. | 15:25 |
| mlavalle | with that patchset, we have a uniform interface in all the mechanism driver in ML2 that we can leverage for the host segments mapping | 15:25 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Great work! | 15:25 |
| mlavalle | that's all I have this week | 15:26 |
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| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Thanks! | 15:26 |
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| carl_baldwin | #topic Create / delete segment in ML2 | 15:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Create / delete segment in ML2 (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:26 | |
| xiaohhui | carl, I see you set workflow -1 to this patch | 15:27 |
| carl_baldwin | xiaohhui: hi | 15:27 |
| xiaohhui | hi | 15:27 |
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| xiaohhui | I haven't get too much to this patch since I get back from summit | 15:27 |
| xiaohhui | But I think the next step is to implement segment as extension in ml2, right? | 15:28 |
| carl_baldwin | xiaohhui: I think you had a discussion point in the etherpad. | 15:28 |
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| carl_baldwin | xiaohhui: That was it. | 15:28 |
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| xiaohhui | Yeap, I added the discussion point just before the meeting | 15:29 |
| carl_baldwin | xiaohhui: We're going to have to integrate the service plugin somehow with ML2. | 15:29 |
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| carl_baldwin | Honestly, I'm not sure yet how that will look. | 15:29 |
| xiaohhui | I don't have a clear picture for it too. | 15:30 |
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| carl_baldwin | I was also thinking that we might want to consult rkukura and maybe the ml2 subteam on this. | 15:30 |
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| carl_baldwin | I'm wondering if we should put this on their meeting agenda. | 15:31 |
| carl_baldwin | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ML2 | 15:31 |
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| carl_baldwin | They have a meeting tomorrow at 1600UTC. That is getting pretty late for you. | 15:32 |
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| carl_baldwin | Maybe I can attend and present the problem and you can read the logs. | 15:32 |
| xiaohhui | 12:00AM for me, I guess. That is great, thanks | 15:32 |
| carl_baldwin | xiaohhui: Okay, I will plan to do that. | 15:33 |
| xiaohhui | And for the discussion point, In which cases, we should allow/forbid deleting network's segment? | 15:33 |
| carl_baldwin | #action carl_baldwin will add create / delete segments to ml2 agenda and attend meeting. | 15:33 |
| carl_baldwin | xiaohhui: This is something I would like to ask the ML2 team. | 15:33 |
| * mlavalle will also attend the ML2 meeting. I want to follow up this issue | 15:33 | |
| xiaohhui | OK, | 15:34 |
| carl_baldwin | xiaohhui: Just checking the meeting logs on your Thursday. | 15:34 |
| xiaohhui | OK, thanks | 15:34 |
| carl_baldwin | Hopefully, we'll be able to get some good feedback from them. | 15:34 |
| carl_baldwin | xiaohhui: anything else? | 15:34 |
| xiaohhui | nothing else | 15:35 |
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| carl_baldwin | xiaohhui: Thanks | 15:35 |
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| carl_baldwin | #topic Segment aware DHCP | 15:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Segment aware DHCP (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:35 | |
| carl_baldwin | blogan: hi | 15:35 |
| blogan | oh hello | 15:36 |
| carl_baldwin | I did start reading your patch. I keep getting distracted. | 15:36 |
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| blogan | lol i know how that goes | 15:36 |
| blogan | well ill be pushing up a new patch today, so it may be worth just waiting until i do that | 15:36 |
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| carl_baldwin | blogan: ack | 15:36 |
| blogan | i'll actually be able to devote the rest of the day to this | 15:36 |
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| blogan | well that and reviews | 15:37 |
| blogan | but ill update the etherpad as well | 15:37 |
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| blogan | would like to get your 2nd patch merged though so i can base my patch off of mlavalle's segment host mapping patch | 15:37 |
| carl_baldwin | blogan: Me too. :) | 15:37 |
| mlavalle | lol | 15:38 |
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| carl_baldwin | Let's get that one merged and then we'll all pile up on mlavalle | 15:38 |
| blogan | but thats pretty much my update | 15:38 |
| carl_baldwin | ... I mean his patch. lol | 15:38 |
| mlavalle | lol | 15:38 |
| blogan | i prefer the first option | 15:38 |
| blogan | pile on insults i mean | 15:38 |
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| mlavalle | :-) | 15:39 |
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| * carl_baldwin thinks blogan and mlavalle have some history there | 15:39 | |
| alekseyruban | Hi everybody. I have an issue with encryption in Cinder/Nova. When I create an instance on an encrypted volume, Nova replace a link at /dev/disk/by-path and after I remove that instance I get broken link and not able to create volume any more. Help please. How to bypass this issue? | 15:40 |
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| blogan | alekseyruban: wrong channel i think | 15:40 |
| mlavalle | we certainly do :-) | 15:40 |
| carl_baldwin | blogan: thanks! | 15:40 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Client | 15:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Client (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:40 | |
| rtheis | hi | 15:40 |
| carl_baldwin | rtheis: anything update? | 15:40 |
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| carl_baldwin | I just added a client section to the etherpad | 15:41 |
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| rtheis | summit session result for OSC transition is in and we continue with CLI in OSC repo | 15:41 |
| rtheis | I plan to test out the list and show options and may be able to remove WIP soon | 15:42 |
| carl_baldwin | rtheis: cool | 15:42 |
| rtheis | I can update the etherpad with details | 15:42 |
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| carl_baldwin | rtheis: great | 15:43 |
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| rtheis | nothing else from me | 15:44 |
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| carl_baldwin | rtheis: Thanks. | 15:44 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic OVN and routed networks | 15:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OVN and routed networks (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:44 | |
| xiaohhui | hi | 15:44 |
| carl_baldwin | hi | 15:44 |
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| xiaohhui | the work in OVN has stopped, because the ml2 implementation is not clear now | 15:45 |
| rtheis | Also networking-ovn itself is in transition from core plugin to ML2 mech driver | 15:45 |
| xiaohhui | yeah, that is another dependency | 15:46 |
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| xiaohhui | thanks rtheis to bring it out | 15:46 |
| carl_baldwin | So, the switch to ML2 is the official plan now? | 15:46 |
| rtheis | Here is the OVN patch set https://review.openstack.org/#/c/312705/ | 15:46 |
| carl_baldwin | I had heard about that switch at the summit but it was not final. | 15:46 |
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| rtheis | carl_baldwin: baring any critical issues, I think the networking-ovn team would say it is official | 15:47 |
| rtheis | but we are in early stages of switch | 15:47 |
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| carl_baldwin | rtheis: Good to know. | 15:47 |
| carl_baldwin | rtheis: And you're taking on the work to switch? | 15:48 |
| rtheis | I am | 15:48 |
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| rtheis | jckasper is working on it too | 15:48 |
| mlavalle | we are in good hands :-) | 15:48 |
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| carl_baldwin | Great! That should make it easier to integrate with routed networks. | 15:50 |
| carl_baldwin | Although, being agentless, we'll still have to come up with host / segment mappings in a new way. | 15:50 |
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| xiaohhui | There is a patch in OVN to get host / segment mappings | 15:51 |
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| mlavalle | xiaohhui: do you have the url handy? | 15:51 |
| xiaohhui | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/302623/ | 15:51 |
| mlavalle | thanks! | 15:51 |
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| carl_baldwin | I've just added it to the etherpad. | 15:53 |
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| xiaohhui | See it | 15:53 |
| carl_baldwin | #topic Deliverables. | 15:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Deliverables. (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)" | 15:53 | |
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| carl_baldwin | Let's talk about Newton-1. What can we deliver? | 15:54 |
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| carl_baldwin | I'll commit to the IPAM work which is pretty close as long as host / segment mapping is in. | 15:54 |
| mlavalle | let's discuss further after you take a look at segemtns host mapping, b ut I think we can deliver that | 15:55 |
| blogan | i'm pretty sure I can get the dhcp agent work done, but I'm not sure if reviews will push it over the deadline | 15:55 |
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| blogan | after i push up this new patch, i think i'll get a good feeling on it's chances of making it for N-1 | 15:55 |
| carl_baldwin | blogan: reviews are hard to predict. | 15:56 |
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| carl_baldwin | I'll also commit to having a Nova spec for deferred IP allocation, unaddressed ports respun. I'm not sure how much more I can confidently commit to there. | 15:56 |
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| mlavalle | I'll push for that during the scheduler meetings | 15:57 |
| blogan | indeed, but i'm more worried about whether i've totally gone in the wrong direction or if i'm on the right path | 15:57 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: Do you think we can have the scheduling spec merged in Nova and work started by N-1? | 15:57 |
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| carl_baldwin | blogan: I'll review today and hopefully we can get some clarity. | 15:57 |
| mlavalle | yeah, mriedem wants to have it merged rioght after generic resource pools | 15:57 |
| blogan | carl_baldwin: sounds good | 15:58 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle: great. | 15:58 |
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| blogan | carl_baldwin: one question, how is it planned to tie ports to segments? segment_id on the port? | 15:58 |
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| blogan | we can take it offline too | 15:58 |
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| carl_baldwin | blogan: That is a good question. | 15:59 |
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| blogan | we've hit time :) | 16:00 |
| carl_baldwin | For now, the plan is to expose segment on the fixed ips. I've done some thinking about adding segment_id to a port but that gets confusing with hierarchical port binding which can bind multiple segments. | 16:00 |
| carl_baldwin | blogan: Thanks. | 16:00 |
| carl_baldwin | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 10 16:00:15 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-05-10-15.01.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-05-10-15.01.txt | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-05-10-15.01.log.html | 16:00 |
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| mlavalle | Thanks! | 16:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | mlavalle: carl_baldwin: just noted your ping, we can take that in channel | 16:00 |
| sridhar_ram | #startmeeting tacker | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 10 16:00:36 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sridhar_ram. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| mlavalle | johnthetubaguy: thanks! | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:00 | |
| carl_baldwin | We can discuss in the Neutron room if needed. | 16:00 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tacker' | 16:00 |
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| sridhar_ram | #topic Roll Call | 16:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:01 | |
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| vishwanathj | o/ | 16:01 |
| sripriya | o/ | 16:01 |
| sridhar_ram | who is here for tacker meeting ? | 16:01 |
| tung_doan | Hi all, I am Tung Doan. I am a member of Korea-OpenNetworking Project supported by Korea IT Minster project Fund. It is nice to work with all of you! | 16:01 |
| s3wong | o/ | 16:01 |
| michael_bredel | o/ | 16:01 |
| janki91 | o/ | 16:01 |
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| dkushwaha | 0/ | 16:01 |
| tbh | o/ | 16:01 |
| twm2016 | o/ | 16:01 |
| brucet | o/ | 16:01 |
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| s3wong | tung_doan: welcome! | 16:01 |
| sridhar_ram | howdy all ! | 16:01 |
| tung_doan | hope you guys recognize me! | 16:01 |
| brucet | I do | 16:01 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: welcome, welcome ... ! glad to hear from you.. | 16:02 |
| brucet | I need tofinish my review for you | 16:02 |
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| s3wong | tung_doan: sure, saw your Ceilometer -> alarm spec on gerrit | 16:02 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: thanks for joining at this late hr in your side.. | 16:02 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: appreciate it.. | 16:02 |
| sridhar_ram | lets get started.. | 16:02 |
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| sridhar_ram | #topic Annoucements | 16:02 |
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| tung_doan | s3wong: I alread saw it | 16:02 |
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| sridhar_ram | #info Newton Tacker Design Summit Recap | 16:03 |
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| sridhar_ram | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/094401.html | 16:03 |
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| sridhar_ram | #info Official Newton schedule #link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 16:03 |
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| sridhar_ram | Agenda for today's meeting .. | 16:04 |
| sridhar_ram | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Tacker#Meeting_May_10.2C_2016 | 16:04 |
| sridhar_ram | #topic Newton Working Plan | 16:04 |
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| sridhar_ram | I'd like to take few mins to communicate the expectation for the Newton cycle and hear community feedback... | 16:05 |
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| sridhar_ram | First, thanks for all those who took time to attend the Tacker design summit... | 16:05 |
| sridhar_ram | it went really well, IMO (!).. lots of lively discussions | 16:05 |
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| vishwanathj | +1 | 16:06 |
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| sridhar_ram | We went into big-tent in Mitaka.. | 16:07 |
| sridhar_ram | .. but we got to scramble a lot to make the release deadline.. | 16:07 |
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| sridhar_ram | so my expectation is to take to the contribution load more towards the "front end" of the dev cycle... | 16:07 |
| sridhar_ram | this means we need to get the specs going ASAP.. | 16:08 |
| sridhar_ram | .. and land most features before Milestone-3 | 16:08 |
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| sridhar_ram | With this in mind I'd like to propose an intermediate Newton release .. | 16:08 |
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| sridhar_ram | .. coinciding with Milestone 2 - July 14, 2016 | 16:09 |
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| sridhar_ram | #link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html#newton-2-milestone | 16:09 |
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| sridhar_ram | .. and a final Newton release after milestone-3 | 16:10 |
| sridhar_ram | what do you think ? | 16:10 |
| brucet_ | Dates?? | 16:10 |
| twm2016 | Aug 29-02 is the newton milestone-3 | 16:10 |
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| sridhar_ram | brucet_: Sept 26, 2016 | 16:10 |
| brucet_ | OK | 16:10 |
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| sridhar_ram | In summary, first midpoint newton release by July 14th, second / final newton release by Sept 26th | 16:11 |
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| sripriya | sridhar_ram: any specific specs/features that is scoped for mid-release? | 16:11 |
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| sridhar_ram | sripriya: I'm looking for the community to orient themselves towards one of these two releases... | 16:12 |
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| sripriya | sridhar_ram: ok | 16:12 |
| sridhar_ram | Ofcourse, I'd like to avoid everyone choosing Sept 26th ;-) | 16:12 |
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| sripriya | :) | 16:13 |
| sridhar_ram | trozet: are you here ? | 16:13 |
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| sridhar_ram | we need to spread big features across these two milestones.. | 16:13 |
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| sridhar_ram | I'm looking towards VNF FFG and Alaram based auto-scaling for midpoint release | 16:14 |
| brucet_ | Where does refactoring come in? | 16:14 |
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| sridhar_ram | NSD, refactoring, CSAR, etc would be in the final release | 16:14 |
| twm2016 | I'd like to help with some of the specs if I can, I'm new to tacker so it will take some time but I think I can at least do some of the dirty work. So maybe I can work on some of the refactoring spec. | 16:15 |
| brucet_ | Bobh said Tosca / Heattranslator already has basic code for autoscaling | 16:15 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: Thank for your interest :) | 16:15 |
| brucet_ | I am planning on looking into this | 16:15 |
| sripriya | twm2016: i'm looking into refactoring items, and i could work with you for few of the tasks | 16:16 |
| sridhar_ram | twm2016: awesome.. the next set of tasks is to break down the different work items in the refactoring bucket.. please co-ordinate w/ sripriya | 16:16 |
| sripriya | twm2016: thanks for your interest | 16:16 |
| vishnoianil | sridhar_ram, it's good if we can target VNFFG for the July, because that's when ODL move toward functionality freeze | 16:16 |
| sridhar_ram | brucet_: tung_doan: KanagarajM: same would hold for the Tacker auto-scaling.. | 16:17 |
| janki91 | I would like to contribute in VNFFG | 16:17 |
| brucet_ | OK | 16:17 |
| sridhar_ram | I didn't want to use the term "sub-team".. but that's what it would be.. | 16:17 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: Ok. I will try | 16:17 |
| trozet | sridhar_ram: yeah | 16:17 |
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| janki91 | I am aware of ODL concepts/usage too | 16:17 |
| sridhar_ram | bunch of interested folks pitching in and landing a feature.. | 16:17 |
| brucet_ | I assume current blueprint for ceilometer alarm monitoring driver is different than autoscaling | 16:18 |
| sridhar_ram | vishnoianil: great.. that will be perfect.. it the stars can be lined up :) | 16:18 |
| sridhar_ram | s/it/if/ | 16:18 |
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| vishnoianil | sridhar_ram, yeah, they are all supposed to line up, so lets give it a best shot :) | 16:19 |
| sridhar_ram | brucet_: we will go more into VNF auto-scaling in few mins.. | 16:19 |
| brucet_ | Ceilometer usage in autoscaling will be in Heat template | 16:19 |
| brucet_ | OK | 16:19 |
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| vishnoianil | janki91, if you would like to contribute toward ODL side or networking-odl, feel free to reach out to me | 16:19 |
| sridhar_ram | Any questions on the way we are going to approach Newton release ? | 16:19 |
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| vishnoianil | janki91, and if you are looking toward contributing to VNFFG/ tacker plugin/driver, reach out to tim/sridhar | 16:20 |
| janki91 | vishnoianil: sure, I will definitely reach out. Infact we have talked in one of the ODL meetups before | 16:20 |
| sridhar_ram | Next, in the Newton way of things... | 16:20 |
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| sridhar_ram | I'm pushing a patchset to tacker-specs to explicitly call out documentation for our features... | 16:20 |
| sridhar_ram | #link https://review.openstack.org/314411 | 16:21 |
| sridhar_ram | First, I'd like to thank vishwanathj and sripriya for pushing the user docs for EPA and MultiSite | 16:21 |
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| sridhar_ram | however, going forward it doesn't make sense to accept a feature without a write up / doc describing how the operator community can use it | 16:22 |
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| sridhar_ram | so, going forward a devref in doc/source/devref/feature is mandatory ... | 16:22 |
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| sridhar_ram | .. it needs to be treated like code.. | 16:22 |
| sridhar_ram | any quick thoughts ? | 16:23 |
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| sridhar_ram | make sense ? | 16:23 |
| sridhar_ram | perhaps, I'm moonlighting ? ;-) | 16:23 |
| santoshk | +1 from user side... | 16:23 |
| janki91 | +1 | 16:23 |
| dkushwaha | +1 | 16:23 |
| trozet | sounds good | 16:23 |
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| sridhar_ram | alright, we can discuss if you've any concern in the above gerrit review | 16:24 |
| sridhar_ram | moving on... | 16:24 |
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| sripriya | sridhar_ram: i'm assuming we can still post a WIP for features? | 16:24 |
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| sripriya | sridhar_ram: even if it means all mandatory stuff is not included | 16:24 |
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| sridhar_ram | sripriya: absolutely, we can always break your feature into multiple patchsets.. | 16:25 |
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| sripriya | sridhar_ram: ok | 16:25 |
| sridhar_ram | the recommendation is to push it as part of your primary patchset... | 16:25 |
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| sridhar_ram | part of it, it will force you to code in a way that is appropriate in the usage side.. | 16:26 |
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| sridhar_ram | #topic VNF FFG - Descriptor Template | 16:26 |
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| sridhar_ram | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/292196/6/specs/newton/tacker-vnffg.rst,unified | 16:27 |
| sridhar_ram | I'd like to land this spec at the earliest ... | 16:27 |
| sridhar_ram | .. we will soon go into a "last call" mode soon | 16:27 |
| sridhar_ram | Lot of folks signed up to review.. don't see all of them in the review | 16:28 |
| trozet | sripriya: can you please respond to my comments? | 16:28 |
| sridhar_ram | :) | 16:28 |
| vishwanathj | i signed up and will review starting today | 16:29 |
| sripriya | trozet: will respond ASAP | 16:29 |
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| sridhar_ram | trozet: few specific question on the template shown in L160 - L198 | 16:29 |
| trozet | sripriya: thanks | 16:29 |
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| sridhar_ram | trozet: how are you planning to get the neutron port ID corresponding to a particular CP ? | 16:30 |
| sridhar_ram | trozet: I'm assuming you would need that to invoke neutron-sfc api | 16:30 |
| trozet | sridhar_ram: well just regular neutron API, but yeah | 16:30 |
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| trozet | sridhar_ram: i could also ask heat I guess for the port ID | 16:31 |
| sridhar_ram | trozet: but looking at "--vnf-mapping VNF1:vnf1-test,VNF3:vnf3-test' | 16:31 |
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| sridhar_ram | trozet: here is the constraint.. we can't have vnffg plugin directly calling into heat APIs | 16:32 |
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| sridhar_ram | trozet: we need to maintain the layer of separation between vnffg and vnfm components.. | 16:32 |
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| trozet | sridhar_ram: maybe VNFM should store the port ids for its instances in it's db? | 16:32 |
| sridhar_ram | trozet: at the least, it needs to using well define vnfm call / api | 16:32 |
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| sridhar_ram | trozet: I thinking along the same lines, we need to enhance GET /vnf call to have more "detailed" response | 16:33 |
| vishnoianil | trozet, i like the idea of storing the port id for VNFM | 16:33 |
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| vishnoianil | probably a orchestrator specific metadata for VNF | 16:34 |
| sridhar_ram | trozet: vishnoianil: I'm not if we need to store in vnfm db.. but offer an vnfm instrospection API to get those details | 16:34 |
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| s3wong | sorry, guys. Need to get going (driving) | 16:34 |
| sridhar_ram | s3wong: np ! | 16:34 |
| vishwanathj | s3wong drive safe | 16:34 |
| s3wong | talk to you guys next week. Will check the log, as VNFFG stuff is (obviously) relevant to me | 16:34 |
| s3wong | Thanks! | 16:35 |
| sridhar_ram | s3wong: yes, need your inputs | 16:35 |
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| trozet | sridhar_ram: how i do it in my code now is you always name the neutron port with the same ID as the tacker id | 16:35 |
| trozet | sridhar_ram: so i can just go query neutron to find the port that way | 16:35 |
| trozet | sridhar_ram: obviously its hack, so it would be better if that data is in the VNFM and i can just query VNFM for it | 16:35 |
| sridhar_ram | trozet: no, that would be bad w.r.t layering.. | 16:35 |
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| vishnoianil | sridhar_ram, i think API should also work, but just wondering why we don't want to store it in db? it's because of duplication of data? or maintenance of it ? | 16:36 |
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| sridhar_ram | vishnoianil: duplication for most part, it is store in heat .. we can get it whenever we want.. plus.. | 16:36 |
| trozet | sridhar_ram: the heat stack knows the ID of the port it created, just add the api VNFM to query heat then | 16:36 |
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| sridhar_ram | vishnoianil: .. port id might change at anytime due to respawn / selfhealing, etc... | 16:37 |
| sridhar_ram | trozet: exactly... | 16:37 |
| vishnoianil | sridhar_ram, yeah, that's what i am guessing | 16:37 |
| sripriya | probably with a vnf-show --details | 16:37 |
| vishnoianil | trozet, sridhar_ram what's the cost of this API call? | 16:37 |
| sridhar_ram | trozet: .. however, we can make it bit generic .. that is applicable for anyone looking for "detailed" vim infra level details about different VNF node_type instancesx | 16:38 |
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| sridhar_ram | vishnoianil: it would be heat api dip | 16:38 |
| trozet | sridhar_ram: sure | 16:39 |
| vishnoianil | sridhar_ram, okay | 16:39 |
| sridhar_ram | trozet: other things to keep in mind is cross-feature interaction of VNFFG w/ other features like multisite and auto-scaling.. | 16:39 |
| trozet | sridhar_ram: so does that need it's own spec as well ? :) | 16:40 |
| sridhar_ram | trozet: for e.g. of a VDU gets auto scale out / scale in.. the SFC chain needs to be altereed | 16:40 |
| sridhar_ram | trozet: I would think so... :) | 16:40 |
| trozet | sridhar_ram: not VDU necessarily... | 16:40 |
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| trozet | sridhar_ram: the external port to the VNF may remain the same, in which case SFC wouldn't care what is happening with VDUs | 16:40 |
| trozet | thats my understanding anyway... | 16:41 |
| sridhar_ram | trozet: in fact, I don't think the first version of VNFFG should support these things.. like multisite and auto-scaling.. but it needs to factor them in its design | 16:41 |
| trozet | agree | 16:41 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: I know you've some thoughts captured in your spec on SFC and auto-scaling... | 16:41 |
| sridhar_ram | please review trozet's spec with that in mind and provide your comments | 16:42 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: yeah,, right | 16:42 |
| sridhar_ram | time to move on to the next topic.. | 16:42 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: OK. thanks | 16:42 |
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| vishnoianil | sridhar_ram, multisite is tempting but i think ODL is not yet there, so that won't be able to support it, no sure about openvswitch driver | 16:43 |
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| sridhar_ram | again, please review vnffg spec .. specifically with user / operator in mind.. imagine you are the one writing the devref for this feature ? | 16:43 |
| sridhar_ram | ;-) | 16:43 |
| sridhar_ram | vishnoianil: agree, it is a huge topic by itself.. | 16:43 |
| vishnoianil | sridhar_ram, yup | 16:44 |
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| sridhar_ram | I'm just trying to make sure we don't pick some design choices in the initial version that will make it difficult to move into those areas for VNFFG | 16:44 |
| vishnoianil | sridhar_ram, make sense | 16:45 |
| sridhar_ram | I know we are in good hands ... | 16:45 |
| * sridhar_ram is now looking at trozet | 16:45 | |
| * trozet looks behind him | 16:45 | |
| trozet | :) | 16:45 |
| sridhar_ram | LOL | 16:45 |
| vishwanathj | :) | 16:45 |
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| sridhar_ram | #topic Alarm based VDU Scaling - Scope, What it is and What it isn't | 16:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Alarm based VDU Scaling - Scope, What it is and What it isn't (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:45 | |
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| bobh | sridhar_ram: hello, sorry I'm late | 16:46 |
| sridhar_ram | bobh: howdy ! | 16:46 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: as you might have realized.. alarm based monitoring and scalign is a huge topic by itself.. | 16:46 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: first order of business is to clearly scope this initial effort... | 16:47 |
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| sridhar_ram | brucet_: are you in the channel ? | 16:47 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: agree | 16:47 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: can you describe what you had in mind w.r.t scope of this work ? | 16:47 |
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| sridhar_ram | brucet: ^^ | 16:48 |
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| brucet | got lost | 16:48 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: yah.. right. my spec is focus on 3 points | 16:48 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: 1- VDU scaling, 2- High availability for SFC and 3- multi-site | 16:48 |
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| brucet | This is ceilometer spec? | 16:49 |
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| tung_doan | brucet: Hi brucet, I used Ceilometer to trigger alarms | 16:49 |
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| sridhar_ram | brucet: I'd like to converge on one spec... https://review.openstack.org/#/c/306562/ | 16:50 |
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| tung_doan | brucet: let me know your opinion :) | 16:50 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: Obviously I'd suggest to keep the deliverable scope the 1 - VDU Scaling that factors in the design going into areas like 2- High availability for SFC and 3- multi-site | 16:51 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: agree | 16:51 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: That is my plan | 16:52 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: brucet: KanagarajM has captured some notes on how to leverage Heat + Ceilometer for this .. https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tacker-scaling | 16:52 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: great... | 16:52 |
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| brucet | I added notes to his spec on what we basically agreed to | 16:52 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: there are few specific areas related to tacker on scale .. | 16:52 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: .. for e.g. mgmt-driver marked for that VDU might need to be called | 16:53 |
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| brucet | Autoscaling can be driven off a couple attributes in Tosca template | 16:53 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: sound good. I will consider... | 16:53 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: brucet: also user-data to be injected into the scale out VM.. | 16:54 |
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| brucet | user-data for what?? | 16:54 |
| sridhar_ram | brucet: for the scale up VM | 16:54 |
| brucet | The ceilometer monitoring driver can be used to trigger "manual" scaling events. | 16:55 |
| sridhar_ram | brucet: I meant, for the new VM spawn due to a scale-out trigger | 16:55 |
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| brucet | But if first goal is autoscaling, that can be done totally through Tosca / Heat translator | 16:55 |
| sridhar_ram | brucet: ah, manual scale out / in is another scope question... | 16:55 |
| brucet | Autoscale will be easier | 16:56 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: we have requirements to support manual scaling as well.. | 16:56 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: OK | 16:56 |
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| brucet | Please see discussion in Kanjaram spec | 16:56 |
| bobh | sridhar_ram: once we have auto-scaling we get manual scaling almost-for-free | 16:56 |
| sridhar_ram | brucet: link please | 16:56 |
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| brucet | Both can be done with one featrure | 16:56 |
| sridhar_ram | bobh: agree... | 16:57 |
| brucet | Don;t have it | 16:57 |
| tung_doan | agree with bobh | 16:57 |
| sridhar_ram | brucet: I'd let you, tung_doan and KanagarajM to see if you've bandwidth to do auto-scale + manual-scale in one spec... | 16:57 |
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| brucet | That's easy | 16:57 |
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| brucet | I bit more implementation for manual scaling since I assume that should be done from monitoring driver interface | 16:58 |
| sridhar_ram | I'm also looking for this group to give me guidance when they would land | 16:58 |
| * sridhar_ram almost out of time... | 16:58 | |
| brucet | Bobh will you work on this as well? | 16:58 |
| bobh | brucet: sure | 16:58 |
| sridhar_ram | Folks - we need to wind down for today.. | 16:58 |
| brucet | OK. I'll need your help for Tosca / Heat changes | 16:59 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: thanks for joining us... | 16:59 |
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| tung_doan | Thank you guys | 16:59 |
| sridhar_ram | lets continue the discussion in the gerrit... | 16:59 |
| sridhar_ram | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/306562 | 16:59 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: sure! | 16:59 |
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| sridhar_ram | #topic Open Discussion | 16:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:59 | |
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| sridhar_ram | thanks everyone... lets get busy w/ Newtom.. | 17:00 |
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| sridhar_ram | I'm excited with our pipeline.. | 17:00 |
| sridhar_ram | bye all | 17:00 |
| sridhar_ram | #endmeeting | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 10 17:00:30 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-05-10-16.00.html | 17:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-05-10-16.00.txt | 17:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-05-10-16.00.log.html | 17:00 |
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| bknudson | lbragstad gets the worm. | 18:00 |
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| lbragstad | bknudson I love worms | 18:01 |
| ayoung | WORMS! | 18:01 |
| stevemar | o/ | 18:01 |
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| roxanaghe | o/ | 18:01 |
| stevemar | #startmeeting keystone | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 10 18:01:29 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| dstanek | hiya | 18:01 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:01 |
| stevemar | ping for keystone ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, crinkle, claudiub, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, edmondsw, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, jorge_munoz, knikolla, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, MaxPC, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rodrigods, rderose, roxanaghe, samleon, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tjcocozz, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, xek | 18:01 |
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| crinkle | o/ | 18:01 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 18:01 |
| rodrigods | hi! | 18:01 |
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| topol | o/ | 18:01 |
| henrynash | oh boy, oh boy, oh boy | 18:01 |
| jorge_munoz | o/ | 18:01 |
| hogepodge | o/ | 18:02 |
| ayoung | Keystoners do keystone things! | 18:02 |
| stevemar | howdy y'all! | 18:02 |
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| jaugustine_ | O/ | 18:02 |
| * topol I'm 98% recovered from martinellifluenza | 18:02 | |
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| stevemar | it's a toughie eh topol | 18:02 |
| dolphm | topol: you can never be 100% recovered from it | 18:02 |
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| stevemar | agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting#Main_Agenda | 18:02 |
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| topol | :-) | 18:03 |
| stevemar | #topic newton release deadlines | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "newton release deadlines (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:03 | |
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| stevemar | i sent this out to the mailing list already, so i'll link it here | 18:03 |
| stevemar | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/093838.html | 18:03 |
| morgan | o/ | 18:03 |
| * morgan is here | 18:03 | |
| stevemar | I'll also be updating releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 18:03 |
| stevemar | fail: http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 18:04 |
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| rderose | o/ | 18:04 |
| stevemar | in general, these are the deadlines: | 18:04 |
| stevemar | May 30-03 -> R-18 -> Spec proposal freeze | 18:04 |
| stevemar | Jul 04-06 -> R-13 -> Spec freeze | 18:04 |
| stevemar | Jul 11-15 -> R-12 -> Feature proposal freeze | 18:04 |
| stevemar | Aug 29-02 -> R-5 -> Feature Freeze | 18:04 |
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| * topol are the midcycle dates/location 100% confirmed? | 18:04 | |
| morgan | topol: the dates are confirmed. | 18:04 |
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| * stevemar looks at morgan | 18:04 | |
| stevemar | what are the dates? | 18:05 |
| morgan | topol: it will be in the bay area... but the exact venue will be determined today | 18:05 |
| morgan | sec. | 18:05 |
| henrynash | and they are….in calendar dates, not R-xx dates | 18:05 |
| henrynash | ? | 18:05 |
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| stevemar | henrynash: what is they? | 18:05 |
| henrynash | teh dates, that is | 18:05 |
| topol | ahhh Cant wait to goto to Scoma's restaurant | 18:06 |
| stevemar | The R-xx dates are alongside the calendar dates | 18:06 |
| morgan | its R-11, wed, thurs, friday | 18:06 |
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| morgan | i *think* that is 20, 21, 22 of July | 18:06 |
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| bknudson | which time zone? | 18:06 |
| morgan | i can;t load the newton schedule/calendar atm | 18:06 |
| henrynash | morgan: thx, that’s what I needed | 18:06 |
| stevemar | bknudson: :) | 18:06 |
| morgan | R-11 Jul 18-22 | 18:07 |
| stevemar | morgan: thank you sir | 18:07 |
| morgan | and it will be wed, thurs, friday of that week | 18:07 |
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| morgan | we will either be in San Jose, or in San Francisco | 18:07 |
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| ayoung | Happy Birthday to me! | 18:07 |
| morgan | i asked for the SF office space | 18:07 |
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| anteaya | http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 18:07 |
| samueldmq | howdy | 18:07 |
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| morgan | because i've heard from cburgess that those offices are amazing | 18:07 |
| henrynash | ayoung: today…or at the midcycle? | 18:07 |
| ayoung | henrynash, mid cycle | 18:08 |
| ayoung | 18 July I officially turn middle aged | 18:08 |
| henrynash | ayoung: cake, me things | 18:08 |
| henrynash | thinks | 18:08 |
| stevemar | ayoung: we'll need to get you a cake | 18:08 |
| morgan | but we will go with whichever cisco is willing to offer us, neither will be bad. | 18:08 |
| ayoung | Candy is Dandy but | 18:08 |
| morgan | (also Cisco is hosting us, FYI) | 18:08 |
| stevemar | morgan: free routers for everyone! | 18:08 |
| cburgess | If only it was free routers for everyone... | 18:09 |
| morgan | stevemar: ask cburgess about that, i'm not promising free anythings ;) | 18:09 |
| dstanek | yesss!!!! i'll need at least 48 ports on mine | 18:09 |
| bknudson | thank you cisco | 18:09 |
| topol | liquor is quicker! What did I win? | 18:09 |
| stevemar | cburgess: :) | 18:09 |
| topol | will dial up be avail? | 18:09 |
| dstanek | cburgess: is it more? | 18:09 |
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| henrynash | topol: buying the first round | 18:09 |
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| cburgess | I should get the answer on final location this afternoon. There is a planning meeting for the event. | 18:09 |
| topol | Sure.. why pot | 18:09 |
| morgan | thanks cburgess ! | 18:09 |
| topol | not | 18:09 |
| henrynash | topol: :-) | 18:10 |
| stevemar | morgan + cburgess thanks for hosting us! :) | 18:10 |
| morgan | cburgess: and pass on the gratitude of the keystone team for hosting us. | 18:10 |
| cburgess | Absolutely | 18:10 |
| topol | +++ Tahnks morgan and cburgess | 18:10 |
| lbragstad | ++ | 18:10 |
| henrynash | ++ | 18:10 |
| dstanek | ++ | 18:10 |
| rderose | ++ | 18:10 |
| stevemar | aside from midcycle, is everyone OK with the dates I proposed? lots of run way still | 18:11 |
| stevemar | you can see how they line up with the release schedule: http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 18:11 |
| lbragstad | just to reiterate - it will be Mon July 18th - Wed July 20th | 18:11 |
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| stevemar | lbragstad: nope, Wed - Fri | 18:11 |
| lbragstad | ah | 18:11 |
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| stevemar | lbragstad: "14:06 morgan: its R-11, wed, thurs, friday" | 18:11 |
| lbragstad | so Wednesday the 20th - Friday the 22nd | 18:11 |
| stevemar | yeppers | 18:12 |
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| stevemar | i wonder if i'll be allowed to add the midcycle dates to the newton schedule.. guess i'll find out | 18:13 |
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| stevemar | i'll get http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html updated by eod | 18:13 |
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| morgan | stevemar: you should ask ttx :) | 18:13 |
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| stevemar | morgan: i'll find out when i include it in the patch :) | 18:14 |
| morgan | hehe ok | 18:14 |
| stevemar | #topic PTL back up | 18:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "PTL back up (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:14 | |
| ayoung | WFM | 18:14 |
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| stevemar | starting May 25th, i'll be out for 3-4 weeks, i don't think this is a surprise to most | 18:15 |
| stevemar | jamielennox volunteers / i suckered him into it... to back me up | 18:15 |
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| stevemar | volunteered* | 18:15 |
| ayoung | voluntold | 18:15 |
| topol | wow exciting times! | 18:15 |
| morgan | stevemar: OMG | 18:15 |
| dstanek | ayoung: ++ | 18:15 |
| dstanek | stevemar: that's coming soon! | 18:16 |
| stevemar | so just a heads up, i'll be transferring over the whip to him :) | 18:16 |
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| topol | I'll go find my men at work album to get ready | 18:16 |
| ayoung | stevemar, any special permissions he's going to need, in order to unstuck things? | 18:16 |
| stevemar | maybe a pinch of voluntold'ing | 18:16 |
| edtubill | o/ | 18:16 |
| morgan | stevemar: i'll also volunteer to cver things while jamie is asleep | 18:16 |
| stevemar | ayoung: see morgan's comment | 18:16 |
| morgan | ayoung: nope. no special perms except stable branch things and doclph and i can handle that | 18:16 |
| topol | thanks jamielennox and morgan | 18:16 |
| shaleh | we are letting Jamie sleep? | 18:16 |
| ayoung | I figured he still had the launch codes | 18:17 |
| ayoung | Keystone team meeting moving ahead 8 hours. | 18:17 |
| stevemar | i expect morgan and dolphm to help jamie when needed | 18:17 |
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| stevemar | i haven't asked them, i just assume these things | 18:17 |
| stevemar | i don't think the meeting time will move, just jamie will have to wake up early | 18:18 |
| * morgan hasn't needed to fill in for stevemar much cause stevemar is mostly up late pacific time as well. | 18:18 | |
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| stevemar | that's how i roll. in other timezones. | 18:18 |
| stevemar | okie, next topic | 18:19 |
| stevemar | any other q's? | 18:19 |
| topol | just wait till every two hours becomes a timezone for you :-) | 18:19 |
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| shaleh | topol: ++ | 18:19 |
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| stevemar | :) | 18:19 |
| stevemar | #topic ldap and py3 | 18:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "ldap and py3 (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:19 | |
| stevemar | at the summit, i asked why we don't just use pyldap instead of python-ldap (and not bother with ldap3) | 18:20 |
| stevemar | the short answer was: we need ldappool too | 18:20 |
| stevemar | i finally looked into it, the whole lib is only a few hundred lines | 18:20 |
| morgan | do we? | 18:20 |
| ayoung | stevemar, any reason to not do both? | 18:20 |
| stevemar | ayoung: no | 18:20 |
| morgan | because ldapool was *mostly* an eventlet solution | 18:20 |
| morgan | we can hold onto normal connections etc now. | 18:21 |
| ayoung | considering the mess that is the ldap code base, we would like to have the ldap3 style code cleanup | 18:21 |
| stevemar | anyway, crinkle helped me out here, but we got ldap tests passing py3 https://review.openstack.org/#/c/311827/ | 18:21 |
| morgan | like one would with traditional python (multiprocess) | 18:21 |
| ayoung | although, to be fair, the ldap code itself could be cleaned up with out that | 18:21 |
| stevemar | the kicker is, we had to bring the ldappool code in-tree | 18:21 |
| roxanaghe | ayoung, ++ for ldap3 :) | 18:22 |
| morgan | eh, not the worst thing | 18:22 |
| ayoung | can we drop ldappool? | 18:22 |
| morgan | ldapool has pretty much be left dead. | 18:22 |
| stevemar | since ldappool hasn't accepted any PR in years | 18:22 |
| morgan | and i'm ok with carrying it locally. | 18:22 |
| morgan | if we need it | 18:22 |
| stevemar | ayoung: it has benefits | 18:22 |
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| ayoung | instead of bringing it in to the tree, just cut out using it? | 18:22 |
| bknudson | where's the unit tests for ldappool? | 18:22 |
| morgan | in fact, i'll even sign up to help maintain it if we need it | 18:22 |
| stevemar | ayoung: i remember mfisch saying it netted him a nice gain | 18:22 |
| stevemar | bknudson: i dind't pull those in tree yet | 18:22 |
| stevemar | bknudson: this was just a poc | 18:22 |
| morgan | also nice work stevemar and crinkle | 18:23 |
| crinkle | :) | 18:23 |
| stevemar | i'm not even sure if we can legally do this.... so i asked here: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/legal-discuss/2016-May/000404.html | 18:23 |
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| morgan | stevemar: what is the original license of ldappool? /me goes and looks | 18:23 |
| bknudson | self.bacend = backend | 18:23 |
| bknudson | they misspelled baconed. | 18:23 |
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| stevemar | bknudson: lol | 18:23 |
| stevemar | mmm bacon | 18:24 |
| morgan | stevemar: this can't be included like this in-tree iirc | 18:24 |
| morgan | stevemar: this is MPL | 18:24 |
| morgan | not APL | 18:24 |
| stevemar | ::sadface:: | 18:24 |
| morgan | yep | 18:24 |
| morgan | MPL/LGPL | 18:24 |
| morgan | we can't do this like this | 18:24 |
| morgan | we can fork/fix it | 18:24 |
| dstanek | why do we need ldappool? | 18:24 |
| bknudson | so somehow we'd need to get the author to agree to relicense. | 18:24 |
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| morgan | bknudson: nah, fork/fix and publish it again if we need. | 18:25 |
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| morgan | or we rewrite the parts we need. | 18:25 |
| stevemar | dstanek: it nets real gains: http://www.mattfischer.com/blog/?tag=ldap | 18:25 |
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| morgan | stevemar: lets take this convo offline. | 18:25 |
| morgan | i think i have some things to contribute to help on this front one way or another. | 18:25 |
| stevemar | alrighty | 18:25 |
| bknudson | we don't need ldappool if we switch to ldap3 | 18:26 |
| dstanek | stevemar: morgan: yes, i'd like to figure what we actually need here instead of carrying dead weight | 18:26 |
| morgan | i'll bug you and crinkle later on and we'll figure it out. | 18:26 |
| stevemar | bknudson: why not? | 18:26 |
| morgan | and dstanek | 18:26 |
| bknudson | ldap3 has connection pooling built-in. | 18:26 |
| stevemar | bknudson: nice | 18:26 |
| ayoung | "Finally I’m using the eventlet (keystone-all) vs apache2 to run Keystone." | 18:26 |
| ayoung | lets drop pool | 18:26 |
| stevemar | it would need a deprecation cycle | 18:27 |
| stevemar | anyway, like morgan said, we can circle back to this topic | 18:27 |
| morgan | stevemar, dstanek, crinkle: tossed a -2 on the current review for the MPL/LGPL, but saying this here so it doesn't halt work. we just *cant* import it like that. | 18:27 |
| ayoung | stevemar, nope. We can drop it for python3 only, no? | 18:27 |
| morgan | not because it shouldn't be included. | 18:27 |
| morgan | ayoung: that is hard to do. | 18:27 |
| roxanaghe | stevemar, so are we decided to use pyldap instead of ldap3? | 18:28 |
| stevemar | a big old six.PY3 wrap around everything | 18:28 |
| stevemar | roxanaghe: not yet, just weighing the options | 18:28 |
| stevemar | roxanaghe: we can have both | 18:28 |
| stevemar | using pyldap would be a nice rip and replace of the existing code | 18:28 |
| roxanaghe | stevemar, ok so nobody will shout at me if I continue to put up some patches with ldap3? | 18:29 |
| stevemar | roxanaghe: of course not :) | 18:29 |
| topol | morgan +++ keep the LGPL out :-) | 18:29 |
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| morgan | topol: i actually don't mind LGPL. | 18:29 |
| morgan | but different convo for a different time | 18:30 |
| dstanek | roxanaghe: nope, if you want to work on it they i say go for it | 18:30 |
| roxanaghe | stevemar, pfew :) | 18:30 |
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| topol | morgan, perhaps over scotch in SFO | 18:30 |
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| * topol yes I'll buy | 18:30 | |
| stevemar | topol: needs to happen before that :P | 18:30 |
| stevemar | anyway | 18:30 |
| stevemar | #topic Help update the API-ref site | 18:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Help update the API-ref site (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:30 | |
| roxanaghe | dstanek, stevemar I just want to see how easy the unit tests code would be - replacing that fakeldap server would be a huge advantage for using ldap3 | 18:30 |
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| stevemar | bknudson: do you know much about this? | 18:31 |
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| ayoung | roxanaghe, ++ | 18:31 |
| bknudson | a bit. | 18:31 |
| stevemar | the API-ref site update-a-mania | 18:31 |
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| bknudson | they want to move the API-ref site off wadls and to RST | 18:31 |
| stevemar | apparently the nova team is having a 2 day event for it | 18:31 |
| bknudson | so sdague developed some sphinx plugins. | 18:31 |
| bknudson | and there's a tool to convert WADL to RST | 18:31 |
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| bknudson | so someone needs to run the conversion and post the RST into keystone | 18:32 |
| stevemar | "into keystone"? | 18:32 |
| bknudson | probably just look at nova and see where it is. | 18:32 |
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| bknudson | openstack/keystone repo | 18:32 |
| bknudson | or keystone-specs? | 18:32 |
| stevemar | like this: https://github.com/openstack/nova/tree/master/api-ref/source ? | 18:32 |
| bknudson | although I think the idea is to put it in keystone | 18:33 |
| stevemar | we already have keystone-specs that has RST | 18:33 |
| stevemar | looks different enough | 18:33 |
| ayoung | We intentionally keeps specs separate from Keystone | 18:33 |
| bknudson | the problem with keystone-specs is that it doesn't match what the server implements. | 18:33 |
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| ayoung | Keystone is the reference implementation of the identity API, but not the only | 18:33 |
| bknudson | so for example we merged some specs that changed the API and then they didn't get implemented | 18:33 |
| bknudson | so the API docs didn't match the server. | 18:34 |
| stevemar | ah | 18:34 |
| stevemar | i see | 18:34 |
| dstanek | bknudson: yeah, specs are great to find design discussions, but not so much as documentation | 18:34 |
| ayoung | disagree | 18:34 |
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| samueldmq | stevemar: I volunteer | 18:34 |
| stevemar | samueldmq: thank you | 18:34 |
| ayoung | there is a reason this is a human driven effort | 18:34 |
| samueldmq | I was planning to start this work last cycle, but had some other priorities | 18:34 |
| stevemar | samueldmq: do you have enough to get started? | 18:34 |
| bknudson | samueldmq: put your name here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/Migrate#API_Reference_Plan | 18:34 |
| stevemar | samueldmq: you can ping annegentle or sdague i guess | 18:34 |
| bknudson | (remove me) | 18:34 |
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| samueldmq | stevemar: I think so, I ask them if I need more clarity | 18:35 |
| ayoung | the API spec is designed to be where we explain not just the values, but the intention. You can't automate that | 18:35 |
| stevemar | and yeah, add your name to the wiki | 18:35 |
| samueldmq | :) | 18:35 |
| dstanek | samueldmq: there are ML threads about this topic too, if you haven't seen them | 18:35 |
| ayoung | We'll end up with Javadocs | 18:35 |
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| bknudson | Ending up with docs like the java std library would be awesome. | 18:35 |
| * samueldmq nods | 18:35 | |
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| ayoung | bknudson, that is not the same thing | 18:35 |
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| ayoung | bknudson, we'll end up with javadocs like most projects have that have one page per attribute with nothing explaining them. | 18:36 |
| stevemar | ayoung: i think they are looking for a consistent representation of what "keystone" can do, and what APIs that openstack services support. consistent being key here. We're the only team that has the API in the specs repo | 18:36 |
| dstanek | ayoung: i'm assuming you mean the amount of crap you can to put in code comments for tools? | 18:36 |
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| ayoung | dstanek, I mnean the amount of generated text you get from an API that is all boilerplate and no substance | 18:37 |
| ayoung | bring dolphm in to this discussion, I hate arguing as his proxy | 18:37 |
| henrynash | stevemar: ++ the current seperation of API spec is weird, and problematic | 18:37 |
| ayoung | I mean, I agree with him, but he says it much better | 18:37 |
| stevemar | ayoung: this looks nice to me: http://developer.openstack.org/api-ref-compute-v2.1.html | 18:37 |
| bknudson | the result will look exactly like this: http://developer.openstack.org/api-ref-identity-v3.html | 18:38 |
| bknudson | that's the point of the conversion tool is it looks the same as what we have. | 18:38 |
| bknudson | except it's rst rather than wadls | 18:38 |
| samueldmq | stevemar: ++ | 18:39 |
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| samueldmq | api-guide explain the concepts, like what is role assignment, etc (scheduling for nova, eg) | 18:39 |
| ayoung | So longas we keep our Current API docs too, and note the difference, it will probably be OK. | 18:39 |
| samueldmq | while the api-ref gives a list of APIs and their details | 18:39 |
| stevemar | samueldmq: thanks for volunteering | 18:40 |
| bknudson | if we keep the current API spec then we'll have to maintain things in 2 places. | 18:40 |
| stevemar | bknudson: ideally we keep one, i'd still like to see APIs proposed with specs | 18:41 |
| samueldmq | stevemar: np, I like this kind of work :) | 18:41 |
| stevemar | but maybe that is not a reality | 18:41 |
| samueldmq | it's my pleasure | 18:41 |
| bknudson | the reason nova is having a multi-day sprint is because their API docs were so out of sync with the implementation | 18:41 |
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| henrynash | stevemar: we have to strive for one and one only | 18:41 |
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| stevemar | henrynash: and the api-ref site seems to be winning that battle | 18:42 |
| henrynash | stevemar: agreed | 18:42 |
| ayoung | MEH. | 18:42 |
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| ayoung | henrynash, your next | 18:43 |
| stevemar | #topic | 18:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:43 | |
| stevemar | fail | 18:43 |
| stevemar | #topic Relaxing project name constraints | 18:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Relaxing project name constraints (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:43 | |
| ayoung | #topic Relaxing project name constraint | 18:43 |
| stevemar | henrynash: ^ | 18:43 |
| henrynash | ok | 18:43 |
| stevemar | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/310048/ | 18:43 |
| ayoung | henrynash, YAY! | 18:43 |
| henrynash | so this is something we have talked about in the past | 18:43 |
| bknudson | time to relax | 18:44 |
| ayoung | henrynash, we are only going to do that if the "strict" thing is on? | 18:44 |
| henrynash | now that we have hierarchies, our “project name must be unique across the whole hiearcy” seem weird | 18:44 |
| henrynash | ayoung: yes | 18:44 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:44 |
| stevemar | i thought the whole "strict" thing was in regards to project ids? | 18:45 |
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| henrynash | basically I’d like people’s feed back on teh consequences of this….for instance, should we return a project path wherever we have a name today? or only when we really really need to | 18:45 |
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| henrynash | stevemar: no, name | 18:45 |
| dstanek | henrynash: yeah, that seems to not be inline with the reseller usecase | 18:45 |
| ayoung | Anyone not think that this is the obvious right thing to do? | 18:45 |
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| henrynash | stevemar: no, it’s names | 18:45 |
| morgan | henrynash: i am still against this. | 18:45 |
| dstanek | henrynash: so it would always be a project path for the name? | 18:46 |
| gyee | it violates the v3 spec, which states projects within a domain must be unique | 18:46 |
| morgan | gyee: exactly | 18:46 |
| henrynash | gyee: yes, we are changing the spec | 18:46 |
| morgan | henrynash: unless we move to microversions, i'm a -2 on this | 18:46 |
| rodrigods | but they are | 18:46 |
| rodrigods | unique | 18:46 |
| gyee | keystone v4? | 18:46 |
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| morgan | it violates api stability | 18:46 |
| morgan | or keystone v4 | 18:46 |
| anteaya | I'm feeling there might be problems with other projects | 18:46 |
| gyee | that was a fundamental requirement for v3 | 18:46 |
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| dstanek | i don't understand how users would know what to pass or how we would know if they are passing path or name | 18:47 |
| amakarov | there are still projects stuck on v2.0 | 18:47 |
| henrynash | so my request is, read the spec, where I go through al lteh issues you raise, and give feedback | 18:47 |
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| gyee | henrynash, yes sir, will do | 18:47 |
| ayoung | v3.14 | 18:47 |
| gyee | 3.14159 | 18:48 |
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| * morgan has put a comment on the spec | 18:48 | |
| morgan | and a -2. | 18:48 |
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| henrynash | dstaneK: I agree - one issue (in a multi cloud scenario) - is how do you knwo if a particuar cloud has this (optional) cap abilit enabled | 18:48 |
| morgan | sorry. | 18:48 |
| ayoung | morgan, how would microversions help? Can you walk through that, cuz if it does, I am all for them | 18:48 |
| morgan | however, i think this is a case where microversion inclusion is the correct path going forward | 18:48 |
| henrynash | morgan: as long as you describe why (in exact terms), then I can respond | 18:48 |
| morgan | henrynash: i did. | 18:48 |
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| morgan | ayoung: if we move towards microversions we can lock out duplicated names (i think) | 18:49 |
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| morgan | ayoung: so we only support specific domains / hierarchies under the new microversion? | 18:49 |
| gyee | this is one area we cannot fuck up as keystone auth is also part of defcore | 18:49 |
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| ayoung | morgan, so that is what we were going for with the config option. Does a microversion mean a version on a subset of the API? | 18:50 |
| morgan | ayoung: i think*. but lets be fair, we can't break the contract that names are unique without exploring the right path forward. | 18:50 |
| morgan | ayoung: i'd follow nova's template | 18:50 |
| morgan | ayoung: for how the microversion works. | 18:50 |
| morgan | tbh | 18:50 |
| ayoung | morgan, can we get the cliff notes version? | 18:50 |
| ayoung | I tried following the mailing list and it was a swarm | 18:50 |
| ayoung | never got to what they landed on | 18:50 |
| morgan | ayoung: entire api is microversioned | 18:50 |
| morgan | afaik | 18:51 |
| ayoung | so any minor change gets a minor version bump? | 18:51 |
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| lbragstad | yeah | 18:51 |
| morgan | but it is negotiated explicitly in the client | 18:51 |
| bknudson | microversioning is not semver | 18:51 |
| morgan | so the client would say "i use ver 22 of the the API" | 18:51 |
| morgan | and get ver 22 semantics | 18:51 |
| bknudson | the number just keeps going up | 18:51 |
| morgan | it is monotonically increasing | 18:51 |
| bknudson | and they can break whatever they want in a new version | 18:51 |
| ayoung | what if.... | 18:51 |
| ayoung | ok heres a thought | 18:51 |
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| morgan | bknudson: not "whatever" but. yes much more flexible | 18:52 |
| thingee | and there has not been thoughts on when we stop supporting older versions. | 18:52 |
| ayoung | suppose we say that you create with the short name, but then we tell you the long name | 18:52 |
| topol | does that end up creating lots of technical debt.. supporting lots of versions?? | 18:52 |
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| ayoung | so if you create with "BAR" but put it under "BAR" you get projectname="FOO/BAR" | 18:52 |
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| gyee | s/technical debt/jobs for america/ | 18:52 |
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| dtroyer | topol: yes. the thought has been to periodically raise the oldest supported version but it has not happened in practice yet | 18:52 |
| morgan | ayoung: possivle. | 18:52 |
| morgan | possible* | 18:53 |
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| henrynash | morgan: so does ANY chaneg of the API have to be versioned using this method (e.g. we have a config option that , if set, means you can’t use reserved chars in a project name….is that “breaking” the api?)? | 18:53 |
| morgan | cburgess: ^ cc (see dtroyer's comment) re convo we had about microversions | 18:53 |
| ayoung | and then the new thing is "short_name" or something that is additive to the API instead of changing the meaning.... | 18:53 |
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| bknudson | trump would say to just default on our technical debt. | 18:53 |
| morgan | henrynash: yep. though the reservation of characters is likely an easier change microversion wise. | 18:53 |
| stevemar | bknudson: lol | 18:53 |
| ayoung | bknudson, we can always print more code | 18:53 |
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| cburgess | morgan dtroyer makes sense and I suspect will be inevitable | 18:53 |
| morgan | henrynash: if it is breaking the stable contract it needs a way to address such as microversions | 18:54 |
| morgan | this is a proposed break of the stable contract. | 18:54 |
| topol | dtroyer, reminds me how everyday in Austin stevemar ordered greater amounts of BBQ poundage at Coopers | 18:54 |
| ayoung | morgan, OK, so can we take your -2 as "this must depend on microversions?" | 18:54 |
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| lbragstad | bknudson i think he'd just try and declare bankruptcy for tech debt | 18:54 |
| morgan | ayoung: yes. it needs to address not breaking the stable contract | 18:54 |
| morgan | once we have a way forward, my -2 is lifted | 18:54 |
| henrynash | morgan: ok. fair enough! | 18:54 |
| morgan | ayoung: and i commented as such with the -2 :) | 18:54 |
| stevemar | henrynash: you've got some spec'ing to do | 18:55 |
| lbragstad | 5 minutes left | 18:55 |
| morgan | the stable contract is the *only* reason i'm -2 on this fwiw. | 18:55 |
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| morgan | i think it is 100% reasonable. | 18:55 |
| ayoung | the thing is, this is more liberal than what we have now. So we would not break existing deployments, but that is not what you are saying, is it | 18:55 |
| * topol wondering how much code it takes to implement a microversion framework... | 18:55 | |
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| henrynash | stevemar: (separate subject) I have one BP that I think doesn’t need a spec: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/domain-config-as-stable | 18:55 |
| morgan | ayoung: it would change the behavior in a way that is not consistent with our current v3 api | 18:56 |
| stevemar | cool, i'll add it to the pile | 18:56 |
| morgan | ayoung: that is the concern. more liberal or less, it is still a contract brack | 18:56 |
| morgan | break* | 18:56 |
| henrynash | stevemar: not sure when we look at those | 18:56 |
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| stevemar | henrynash: definitely doesn't need a spec | 18:56 |
| ayoung | morgan, so a user needs to be able to query to know which contract is in effect? | 18:56 |
| dtroyer | topol: Nova has started extracting carefully-selected bits into a lib for doing the hard part, the negotiation… | 18:56 |
| morgan | ayoung: yes. (or the client at least) | 18:56 |
| bknudson | the user specifies. | 18:56 |
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| morgan | bknudson: ++ | 18:57 |
| morgan | dtroyer: nice. | 18:57 |
| morgan | dtroyer: that would be good for us. | 18:57 |
| ayoung | bknudson, what does tht mean? | 18:57 |
| henrynash | ayoung: maybe more than one contarct is avalable, I would think the client gets to chose which one we can work with (maybe none) | 18:57 |
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| morgan | bknudson: if the client doe not specify a version, it gets the baseline version | 18:57 |
| bknudson | ayoung: the client always says what version it is. | 18:57 |
| morgan | s/ bknudson / ayoung | 18:57 |
| topol | dtroyer Cool Thanks! | 18:57 |
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| morgan | bascially it is up to the client to say what it can support, or it gets the most basic interface | 18:58 |
| ayoung | hmm...not sure that global unique and non-unique can co-exist in the same API | 18:58 |
| stevemar | i think we're just about done here | 18:58 |
| bknudson | I haven't seen how microversions work with the openstack cli. | 18:58 |
| morgan | ayoung: we may need to work through some other details (reserved characters? or something else) | 18:58 |
| stevemar | bknudson: shhh... don't mention that, it's a touchy subject | 18:58 |
| henrynash | fine request: on the proejct names, please do review the other aspects of teh spec - even if we may need to microverion this…. | 18:58 |
| morgan | ayoung: but if we solve the api contract break, my -2 goes away. | 18:58 |
| dtroyer | bknudson: we support setting the header, but not much more than that yet | 18:58 |
| bknudson | or how they implemented it in their client API | 18:59 |
| morgan | ayoung: and i am generally in favour of the change. | 18:59 |
| ayoung | morgan, so if the name is always the full path, the names are always unique. | 18:59 |
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| ayoung | So I think we should focus on a way to to the path naming without an API break? | 18:59 |
| stevemar | we're at time | 19:00 |
| stevemar | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
| morgan | ayoung: i do think we need to move toeward microversions anyway | 19:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 10 19:00:05 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-05-10-18.01.html | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-05-10-18.01.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-05-10-18.01.log.html | 19:00 |
| morgan | but without the break would be best for that | 19:00 |
| dtroyer | ayoung: even adding a capability needs to be signalled to the client to know if ut can be used | 19:00 |
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| fungi | infra people about? | 19:00 |
| Zara | o/ | 19:00 |
| mnaser | o/ | 19:00 |
| SotK | o/ | 19:00 |
| morgan | o/ | 19:00 |
| clarkb | yup | 19:00 |
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| jhesketh | Morning | 19:00 |
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| bknudson | morgan won't be late for this meeting. | 19:01 |
| mmedvede | o/ | 19:01 |
| morgan | bknudson: lol | 19:01 |
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| jeblair | howdy | 19:01 |
| crinkle | o/ | 19:01 |
| GheRivero | o/ | 19:01 |
| AJaeger | evening | 19:01 |
| docaedo | o/ | 19:01 |
| pabelanger | o/ | 19:02 |
| notmyname | here | 19:02 |
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| rockyg | o/ | 19:02 |
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| pleia2 | o/ | 19:02 |
| fungi | mordred: around? | 19:03 |
| fungi | though i guess he added his topic on notmyname's behalf | 19:03 |
| fungi | okay, let's get started | 19:03 |
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| fungi | #startmeeting infra | 19:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 10 19:03:34 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:03 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:03 |
| fungi | #topic Announcements | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
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| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/094540.html Newton Summit Infra Sessions Recap | 19:04 |
| fungi | (as promised) | 19:04 |
| fungi | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:04 | |
| fungi | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-03-19.02.html | 19:04 |
| fungi | jeblair investigate mail filtering by recipient options for infra-root@o.o inbox | 19:05 |
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| fungi | did you come to any conclusion on that topic? | 19:05 |
| jeblair | fungi: i was not here for that meeting | 19:05 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:05 |
| jeblair | though i do recall discussing it at the summit | 19:05 |
| pleia2 | it was carried over from the meeting you were at | 19:05 |
| jeblair | i will start looking at it soon | 19:05 |
| pleia2 | (I thought) | 19:05 |
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| jeblair | at any rate, no :) | 19:06 |
| fungi | yeah, this was carried over from an action item at the meeting before the summit. anyway, cool, i'll carry it forward ;) | 19:06 |
| jeblair | i've been... busy traveling | 19:06 |
| fungi | #action jeblair investigate mail filtering by recipient options for infra-root@o.o inbox | 19:06 |
| mordred | o/ | 19:06 |
| fungi | #topic Specs approval | 19:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:06 | |
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| fungi | we don't have any new ones yet, though the wip on on task tracking is probably going to show up ready for council vote next week | 19:07 |
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| fungi | it's linked in my recap | 19:07 |
| clarkb | is that the one that thierry proposed? | 19:07 |
| fungi | yeah | 19:07 |
| olaph | o/ | 19:07 |
| * AJaeger has one spec up to mark as completed... | 19:07 | |
| fungi | AJaeger: what's the link? i'll approve | 19:08 |
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| AJaeger | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/305426/ | 19:08 |
| fungi | thanks | 19:08 |
| fungi | #topic Priority Efforts | 19:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:08 | |
| AJaeger | thanks, fungi | 19:09 |
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| fungi | since i didn't get around to posting the summit recap until today, let's give this one more week for discussion to conclude before we revisit priorities for the coming cycle | 19:09 |
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| pabelanger | We're pretty close to closing out 'Use Diskimage Builder in Nodepool' | 19:09 |
| fungi | #topic Golang infra needs for swift (mordred, notmyname) | 19:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Golang infra needs for swift (mordred, notmyname) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:09 | |
| fungi | i've seen the ml thread! | 19:10 |
| notmyname | wheee | 19:10 |
| mordred | so notmyname and I were talking a bit | 19:10 |
| fungi | this is exciting stuff | 19:10 |
| mordred | about what would need to be done from an infra pov to support go in things | 19:10 |
| mordred | and thought it would be a good idea to chat with folks here - cause I probably forgot things | 19:10 |
| nibalizer | o/ | 19:10 |
| anteaya | is there any kind of list started with items? | 19:11 |
| anteaya | like an etherpad? | 19:11 |
| mordred | investigation and implementation around dealing with mirroring/caching dependenices is the big one I can think of | 19:11 |
| mordred | there are smaller issues like what to do with docs building (likely a combo of sphinx and godoc) | 19:11 |
| fungi | do we have any initial jobs that exercise go compilation/testing? | 19:11 |
| notmyname | from my perspective, I'm looking for questions -infra needs answers to and info swift can provide to -infra as this process moves forward | 19:11 |
| mordred | anteaya: not really | 19:11 |
| anteaya | mordred: okay | 19:11 |
| AJaeger | I have a question on reproduceability: If golang builds download unversioned tarballs, how can we ensure that everybody can reproduce the build? Do we need to limit what gets included in a build? Mirror it? | 19:11 |
| mordred | but is probably a good idea | 19:11 |
| notmyname | ie stuff I need to be working on putting together | 19:11 |
| mordred | AJaeger: so - golang deps are git repos essentially | 19:12 |
| mordred | which means there is no central registry we can mirror | 19:12 |
| mordred | there is a tool called godep | 19:12 |
| mordred | that can be used to make a dependency manifest similar to what npm and rust have | 19:12 |
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| fungi | yeah, not being familiar with how go dependencies are ultimately declared, i have to assume they let you specify a git ref or something for reproducibility | 19:12 |
| mordred | and if we used that, we could do a thing similar to our old pypi mirroring scheme to mirror the things we depend on | 19:13 |
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| mordred | they do | 19:13 |
| mordred | you can reference shas or tags or whatever | 19:13 |
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| mordred | but this is completely new territory, so there is only a basic design from the dark corners of my brain, and we all know how that tends to go | 19:13 |
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| * AJaeger prefers released code instead of random git repos but this might be a way to go... | 19:13 | |
| mordred | I think the mailing list also brought up supported versions of go - but to me that seems clear to be "whatever is in xenial" | 19:14 |
| fungi | presumably the discussion of unversioned dependencies was more in regard to a lot of go libs not actually tagging anything, so people using git shas instead a lot of the time? | 19:14 |
| mordred | fungi: yah. that seems to be a non-abnormal practice | 19:14 |
| mordred | anybody have any additional things they can think of that we should point notmyname at? | 19:14 |
| jeblair | mordred: what about build artifacts? | 19:14 |
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| rockyg | might consider inviting monasca folks in for extra info/help on defining this stuff | 19:14 |
| mordred | jeblair: that's an excellent question | 19:15 |
| mordred | so far we're not in the business of publishing built binaries | 19:15 |
| anteaya | rockyg: they are welcome to attend any meeting or participate in any mailing list | 19:15 |
| mordred | and source tarballs don't really seem to be a thing in go lnad | 19:15 |
| fungi | openstack should probably be a "good" upstream and not be one of those who don't tag releases, at least | 19:15 |
| anteaya | noone needs an invitation | 19:15 |
| mordred | so our "releases are tags" might work "well" | 19:15 |
| clarkb | my biggest concerns are avoiding dep hell | 19:15 |
| clarkb | since Go is pretty notorious for it | 19:15 |
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| fungi | any worse than node/npm? | 19:16 |
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| clarkb | fungi: much supposedly | 19:16 |
| jeblair | mordred, notmyname: so when swift tests with hummingbird, it will need to build hummingbird first? | 19:16 |
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| clarkb | fungi: you end up doing things like making a new repo for major version changes to libs | 19:16 |
| clarkb | fungi: for example | 19:16 |
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| mordred | clarkb: I think I actually like that better | 19:16 |
| notmyname | jeblair: yes, definitely for functional tests. honestly i don't know how unittests work in a compiled language yet | 19:16 |
| clarkb | fungi: it works great in googles one tree world but falls apart quickly when you have many trees | 19:16 |
| fungi | clarkb: that sounds more like someone avoiding making tags | 19:17 |
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| clarkb | fungi: well its beacuse there is no way in Go to respect "tags" | 19:17 |
| mordred | clarkb: it's certainly better than the hipster-semver world view of "I bumped the major version why are you angry that I broke everything" | 19:17 |
| clarkb | fungi: or wasn't until every recently | 19:17 |
| clarkb | mordred: oh well most Go projects do that | 19:17 |
| clarkb | mordred: the smart ones make a new repo can call it foo2 | 19:17 |
| mordred | notmyname: in rust at least, part of running unittests is compiling the project, and then also compiling the unittests against the project | 19:17 |
| clarkb | anyways there is a pretty famous rant out there on how it is impossible to ever reproduce builds of Go at stages in the past | 19:17 |
| clarkb | I should dig it up | 19:17 |
| mordred | notmyname: so I'd expect similar in go | 19:17 |
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| fungi | interesting. so anyway we should probably be prepared for the "list" of dependencies to change with some frequency if creating new repos for releases is a common pattern | 19:18 |
| mordred | clarkb: so this is one of the problems godep solves | 19:18 |
| mordred | clarkb: with godep, the godep tool handles the git cloning and stuff | 19:18 |
| mordred | and makes a local "vendor" tree that we would not commit to our git repos | 19:18 |
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| clarkb | mordred: transitively too? AIUI the issues had to do with now we are 5 levels deep and someone never published the exact version of bar lib they needed and now we have to check all 5k commits to bar lib until something works | 19:19 |
| mordred | but is a reproducable tree as it does respect refs and tags | 19:19 |
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| mordred | yah | 19:19 |
| mordred | clarkb: yes | 19:19 |
| anteaya | one of the things I saw Tim Bell bring up was the ability for operators to use distro packages | 19:19 |
| clarkb | mordred: ok sounds like they have addressed hte major issues then | 19:19 |
| anteaya | so would we be testing using distro packages? | 19:19 |
| clarkb | mordred: I think another issue was anyone can delete that repo from github and now yo ulose | 19:19 |
| fungi | in theory they still can use distro packages of this. distros are packaging projects written in go | 19:19 |
| mordred | anteaya: yah- I think as long as we have the ability to do reproducible builds, then the distros should be able to do that too | 19:19 |
| clarkb | mordred: or delete the tag or rebase and force push changes ot history | 19:19 |
| anteaya | mordred: okay thank you | 19:19 |
| clarkb | but those were less common grumps | 19:20 |
| mordred | perhaps we should make our "source tarballs" include the 'vendored' code | 19:20 |
| bkero | reproduceable builds are hard if they contain any compiled binaries | 19:20 |
| mordred | in any case ... | 19:20 |
| fungi | we almost certainly want to take some cues from what the distro pain points with go are so that we can find/follow conventions for avoiding those | 19:20 |
| bkero | The only distro who has it as a priority right now is Debian IIRC. | 19:20 |
| mordred | this is one of the big/hard tooling design issues that needs to be addressed | 19:20 |
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| clarkb | bkero: its also part of doing CI | 19:20 |
| mordred | and we're probably not going to solve it right now | 19:20 |
| clarkb | bkero: we support software for 18 months right now | 19:20 |
| mordred | I think it's more important for us to come up with a list of things that need to be solved before we're comfortable with such a thing | 19:21 |
| bkero | clarkb: I'm talking byte-for-byte reproduceable. Compilers and system libraries just don't do it yet. | 19:21 |
| fungi | so to get the discussion a little back on track, what are the questions we have specifically for the swift/hummingbird devs? | 19:21 |
| clarkb | bkero: I am talking build release x.y.z 9 months from now | 19:21 |
| mordred | fungi: they have the question from us "what do we need them to help us work on solving" | 19:21 |
| mordred | s/from/for/ | 19:21 |
| fungi | i don't want this to turn into a rathole about go language shortcomings specifically | 19:21 |
| krotscheck | o/ | 19:21 |
| mordred | like, we know there will be an infra cost that someone is going to need to solve | 19:21 |
| * krotscheck totally forgot about this. | 19:21 | |
| mordred | but we need to flesh that out so that someone can go work on solving it | 19:22 |
| clarkb | mordred: swift/designate should own the devstack/d-g changes to properly install their thing | 19:22 |
| jeblair | mordred: yeah, i think as a brainstorming session, we've identified the high points; could probably do with writing them up next. | 19:22 |
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| notmyname | clarkb: "d-g"? | 19:22 |
| clarkb | they should decide on a common dep handling machinery | 19:22 |
| mordred | notmyname: devstack-gate | 19:22 |
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| mordred | notmyname: it's the thing that sets things up for devstack | 19:22 |
| notmyname | is devstack a requirement? | 19:23 |
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| notmyname | ie for the testing image? | 19:23 |
| * persia notes that none of the other toolchains (npm, python, C) are currently entirely reproducible, and suggests that such discussion is better done at a toolchain level than an OpenStack level | 19:23 | |
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| mordred | notmyname: we use devstack for integration tests | 19:23 |
| mordred | notmyname: so, yeah | 19:23 |
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| mordred | anteaya had a good idea earlier ... so: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/golang-infra-issues-to-solve | 19:23 |
| notmyname | mordred: yeah, but there's also the concept of different servers in one gate job (eg rolling upgrade tests) | 19:23 |
| mordred | how about we collect things | 19:23 |
| anteaya | mordred: thank you | 19:24 |
| mordred | notmyname: yah - multi-node devstack jobs is the usual solution to that currently | 19:24 |
| notmyname | mordred: not that I'm opposed, just figuring that this might be an opportunity for "if we could do it over again, we'd do ..." | 19:24 |
| fungi | swift's functional tests also use devstack-gate for setup, right? | 19:25 |
| clarkb | fungi: yes | 19:25 |
| notmyname | yeah IIRC | 19:25 |
| clarkb | with a post gate hook | 19:25 |
| clarkb | notmyname: I would really rather we not reinvent the entire wolrd all at once... | 19:25 |
| notmyname | :-) | 19:25 |
| fungi | so basically something that adds in the "build hummingbird and run it" step into the current integration and/or functional jobs | 19:25 |
| clarkb | notmyname: Go is a new thing is a big enough transition | 19:25 |
| pabelanger | clarkb: ++ | 19:25 |
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| clarkb | I think my biggest concerns are 1) that designate and swift will decide on two different ways to do things and 2) that infra will get all the work dumped in its lap | 19:28 |
| clarkb | happy to help, we do have a lot of experience dealing with lang devtest envs, but I don't think qa or infra should have to update devstack for example | 19:28 |
| notmyname | those "things" are what I want to see a list about, so that we don't do them differently | 19:28 |
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| fungi | which unfortunately is a list of mostly unknowns until we encounter them | 19:29 |
| fungi | i expect a lot of this will be learned through trial and error | 19:29 |
| clarkb | right, I think the best thing we can say is swift and designate will work together to reach common decisions | 19:29 |
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| clarkb | rather than try and figure it all out upfront | 19:29 |
| notmyname | ok | 19:29 |
| notmyname | clarkb: +1000 to that | 19:29 |
| AJaeger | agree with clarkb | 19:29 |
| fungi | we can't really serve as the arbiter between swift and designate teams. luckily they're great people who will have no trouble cooperating toward a common goal | 19:30 |
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| fungi | thanks notmyname! | 19:30 |
| fungi | anything else urgent on this topic before i move on? | 19:30 |
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| notmyname | thank you for your help, -infra | 19:30 |
| notmyname | I kinda expect to keep needing it for this :-) | 19:30 |
| mordred | :) | 19:31 |
| mordred | notmyname: thanks for coming and chatting | 19:31 |
| notmyname | i'll keep up with the etherpad and work there | 19:31 |
| fungi | #topic Publish logs for mirror-update.o.o (pabelanger) | 19:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Publish logs for mirror-update.o.o (pabelanger) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:31 | |
| pabelanger | ohai | 19:31 |
| pabelanger | so, we had a request from the release team a few days ago to expose some of our mirror-update logs. | 19:31 |
| fungi | anything sensitive in them we should worry about? can we just do teh same trick we're doing for nodepool image builds? | 19:31 |
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| jeblair | i think they are long and boring :) | 19:32 |
| clarkb | the only sensitive thing I can think of is the kerberos auth creds | 19:32 |
| pabelanger | Ya, I think what we do for nodepool.o.o is a good start | 19:32 |
| fungi | it's much more likely what the release team would actually be interested in is status info | 19:32 |
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| jeblair | also, we could just write them into afs :) | 19:32 |
| fungi | great point | 19:33 |
| pabelanger | I would be okay with that | 19:33 |
| clarkb | which will then be served via the mirror hosts for easy access | 19:33 |
| fungi | (logs or status details. or even both) | 19:33 |
| clarkb | I like that | 19:33 |
| fungi | are there some good afs stats we would want to periodically dump to a file in each volume? | 19:33 |
| fungi | do we already have an updated timestamp file? | 19:34 |
| * mordred approves of writing them to AFS | 19:34 | |
| clarkb | I want to say reprepro gives a summary we could write out | 19:34 |
| jeblair | fungi: vos examine will give you updated timestamps for RO and RW volumes | 19:34 |
| fungi | that's probably the one thing they want to know more than anything: "when did this volume last get updated" | 19:34 |
| clarkb | bandersnatch might? | 19:34 |
| mordred | yah - reprepro keeps info in a db | 19:34 |
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| clarkb | so we can write out mirror content infos and volume status infos | 19:34 |
| jeblair | (also, vos examine needs no creds, so anyone can run it anonymously) | 19:35 |
| pabelanger | okay, neat. | 19:35 |
| fungi | on the other hand, writing vos examine details out to a file periodically or something does avoid them needing to install a kernel module to find that out | 19:35 |
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| fungi | no idea if that's a show-stopper for them | 19:36 |
| jeblair | fungi: no kernel mod needed | 19:36 |
| fungi | oh? | 19:36 |
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| fungi | ahh, right, just the afs client and krb5 | 19:37 |
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| mordred | don't even need krb5 | 19:37 |
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| jeblair | http://paste.openstack.org/show/496612/ | 19:37 |
| jeblair | here's the output | 19:37 |
| krotscheck | the npm mirror actually includes a status file that's updated with every run. | 19:37 |
| morgan | mordred: kinit! | 19:37 |
| mordred | krotscheck: woot! | 19:38 |
| krotscheck | http://mirror.dfw.rax.openstack.org/npm/-/index.json | 19:38 |
| fungi | indeed, that's simple | 19:38 |
| jeblair | so you can see the last update time for both the RW and the RO volumes (they are the same, so RW has not changed since the last vos release) | 19:38 |
| krotscheck | Both the date and the two seq parameters are relevant on that file. | 19:38 |
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| jeblair | centos has updated since the last vos release: http://paste.openstack.org/show/496613/ | 19:39 |
| fungi | okay, so the decision is to start by writing the mirror-update logs into a subdirectory of their respective volumes? | 19:39 |
| krotscheck | Would it make sense to create a single directory with symlinks to the files so that the release team has a single place where they can look? | 19:40 |
| jeblair | fungi: i'd write to a different volume | 19:40 |
| fungi | ahh, and then serve it under a different docroot/alias | 19:40 |
| jeblair | probably just a readwrite volume with no replica | 19:40 |
| fungi | oh, right, we serve the parent of the volumes from apache anyway | 19:40 |
| mordred | yup | 19:40 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: and yeah, could be organized like that | 19:41 |
| jeblair | have a directory for each mirror type with appropriate acls | 19:41 |
| * krotscheck could write a pretty UI Dashboard. | 19:41 | |
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| jeblair | krotscheck: with afs that usually means uing "========", but i'm guessing you mean something else :) | 19:42 |
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| krotscheck | :-P | 19:42 |
| clarkb | -------- | 19:42 |
| clarkb | ? | 19:42 |
| fungi | since this is devolving into restructuredtext jokes, we're probably ready for the next topic? | 19:43 |
| krotscheck | I mean, let's be honest here. We're one blog post away from other large orgs using our mirrors internally. | 19:43 |
| anteaya | I am | 19:43 |
| pabelanger | sure, I think we have a plan to start | 19:43 |
| AJaeger | krotscheck: Let's not start to discuss team blogs ;) | 19:43 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: ++ | 19:43 |
| jeblair | pabelanger: ++ | 19:43 |
| fungi | #topic Trusty upgrade schedule (fungi) | 19:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Trusty upgrade schedule (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:43 | |
| fungi | i'm squeezing this in so we don't run out of time, since we punted on it last week without enough people around to decide | 19:44 |
| fungi | we said r16 was probably the best time to arrange to burn through the trivial upgrades. did anyone else have any opinions? | 19:44 |
| jeblair | what's that in the old calendar? | 19:44 |
| pleia2 | http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 19:44 |
| clarkb | last time I sort of threw out R-19 | 19:44 |
| pleia2 | and my recollection was R-19 as well, May 23-27 | 19:45 |
| clarkb | R-16 is june 13-17 | 19:45 |
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| fungi | d'oh, right | 19:45 |
| fungi | i had them backwards | 19:45 |
| fungi | r19 was the emerging consensus | 19:45 |
| anteaya | r-19 is what I remember | 19:45 |
| pleia2 | I'll be away in moose land thurs-friday of that week, but happy to help mon-wednesday | 19:45 |
| anteaya | I'm around that week | 19:46 |
| anteaya | pleia2: watch out for the meese | 19:46 |
| pabelanger | Ya, monday doesn't look good for me, but good rest of week | 19:46 |
| fungi | yeah, i expect this is going to just be dogpiling on the easy ones for some of the week and also trying to plan out the more involved upgrades (which may end up in subsequent separate weeks) | 19:46 |
| pleia2 | fungi: nods | 19:46 |
| nibalizer | i am around those dates | 19:46 |
| fungi | so being around for part of that week should still be plenty of opportunity to help knock some out | 19:46 |
| jeblair | i should be around then | 19:46 |
| * AJaeger will be offline R19 and R20 | 19:46 | |
| clarkb | I will be semi around, turns out I might actually be buying a house R-20 | 19:46 |
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| anteaya | AJaeger: for a well deserved holiday! | 19:47 |
| fungi | better than buying a moose | 19:47 |
| anteaya | clarkb: congratulations | 19:47 |
| anteaya | yeah moose aren't house trained | 19:47 |
| pleia2 | fungi: hard to say which is more trouble, really | 19:47 |
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| fungi | okay, any objections to r19 (may 23-27)? | 19:47 |
| clarkb | can I get a vodka drinking bear? | 19:47 |
| pleia2 | fungi: let's do it | 19:47 |
| fungi | ask mirantis | 19:47 |
| * mordred will be on vacation may 23-27 | 19:48 | |
| anteaya | fungi: no objections from me | 19:48 |
| anteaya | mordred: yay | 19:48 |
| mordred | but has no objections | 19:48 |
| mordred | I will attempt to not help | 19:48 |
| mordred | I may be unsuccessful | 19:48 |
| fungi | #agreed Mass server upgrade to Ubuntu 14.04 will ensue the week of May 23-27 | 19:48 |
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| fungi | we can discuss further as the date draws closer | 19:49 |
| anteaya | I'll see if I can book the sprint channel | 19:49 |
| fungi | #topic Tier 3.14159265359 support (pabelanger) | 19:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tier 3.14159265359 support (pabelanger) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:49 | |
| anteaya | so we can work in there | 19:49 |
| fungi | thanks anteaya | 19:49 |
| anteaya | welcome | 19:49 |
| fungi | okay pabelanger, what is this about? do you want us to get you a pager? | 19:49 |
| pabelanger | So, this is a results of our zuul issue that happen on friday, see http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-infra/%23openstack-infra.2016-05-06.log.html#t2016-05-06T12:27:39 for some history | 19:49 |
| pabelanger | but TL;DR, I was hoping we could have some sort of out-of-band contact list for infra-root. | 19:50 |
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| fungi | i have a lot of opinions on this, but will boil them down to one or two | 19:50 |
| AJaeger | So, a chance for yolanda and myself to wake up everybody? ;) | 19:50 |
| pabelanger | anteaya: did a great job keeping the openstack-infra channel working, but I was looking to get some additional active from infra on how to proceed with the zuul issue at hand | 19:50 |
| fungi | generally, when our root admins are available to assist troubleshooting/fixing something (i.e. not sleeping or on vacation) we're in irc keeping an eye on what's happening | 19:51 |
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| anteaya | well after fungi finishes I have some thoughts to share on the topic, and thanks for the acknowledgement pabelanger | 19:51 |
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| fungi | when the only root admins around are unfamiliar with the thing that's broken, that's an unpleasant experience but it's how most of us have had to get deeper familiarity with these systems in the past | 19:52 |
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| AJaeger | And we have some times where no root admin is around - and have so far accepted that there is an occasional hickup that takes a few hours... | 19:53 |
| pabelanger | Right, for me, I think I was just looking for validation to move forward with the plan at hand (restarting zuul). But, yes that was related to inexperience | 19:53 |
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| pabelanger | anteaya: thoughts? | 19:53 |
| fungi | so while we should be working to improve our important service documentation (always) i don't know that calling someone else to jump on irc is going to force that learning experience | 19:53 |
| anteaya | well my thougts are that you handled the situation really well | 19:53 |
| clarkb | as a data point, email or irc to me is usually just as good if not better way to contact me than phone calls or text messages. I don't tend to let my phone interrupt me and instead poll it like I poll email/irc | 19:53 |
| anteaya | and that it wasn't a crisis | 19:53 |
| anteaya | but I can understand the pressure you felt | 19:54 |
| anteaya | and that no is sometimes the best answer to a situation | 19:54 |
| fungi | i treat my phone similarly. i often forget it in another room of the house, sometimes for days | 19:54 |
| anteaya | people don't like to hear it | 19:54 |
| anteaya | but no can actually save folks time and trouble in the long run | 19:54 |
| anteaya | pabelanger: I think you did everything right in the situation | 19:54 |
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| anteaya | we can't expect folks to have experience they don't have | 19:54 |
| anteaya | that is unrealistic | 19:54 |
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| anteaya | we have to operate within the limits which we are comfortable | 19:55 |
| pabelanger | Sure, I understand the need to not have contacting outside of IRC. And happy to leave it at that | 19:55 |
| pabelanger | anteaya: thanks | 19:55 |
| fungi | so anyway, while collaboration with our peers is important, when there is an emergency try to carefully read documentation if it's available and then proceed with caution and remember that we all make mistakes | 19:55 |
| anteaya | and then grow them with the opportunity arrises | 19:55 |
| anteaya | pabelanger: welcome | 19:55 |
| AJaeger | pabelanger: and have the courage to slow down and not panic - as you did. | 19:55 |
| fungi | i have destroyed my share of our systems over the years. it's probably one of the main ways i've learned about them | 19:55 |
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| AJaeger | ;) | 19:56 |
| mordred | it's also possible we've reached a point where we should revisit the level of service we're offering or striving to offer - and document it | 19:56 |
| anteaya | mordred: I think that is a good idea | 19:56 |
| rockyg | mordred, ++ | 19:57 |
| anteaya | ultimately any decison to move forward is up to the person who will have to fix it afterward | 19:57 |
| anteaya | and that is personal and different for everyone | 19:57 |
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| mordred | yup | 19:57 |
| fungi | i'm cool with that too, though i think we do a remarkable job of not letting the world burn around us already and documenting that we do that in an ad hoc manner with no off-hours escalation paths is likely to just frighten some people | 19:57 |
| mordred | fungi: it might | 19:57 |
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| fungi | but i'm okay with us writing that down nonetheless | 19:57 |
| mordred | fungi: but it might be better to frighten them in a proactive manner - than in a reactive manner when they panic | 19:57 |
| anteaya | oh I'm not interested in frightening people | 19:57 |
| * jeblair assumes the escalation path is the same as everything else in tech -- twitter | 19:58 | |
| anteaya | but I agree with fungi's statement, as a team we do an awesome job | 19:58 |
| persia | That isn't a bad thing: it is done extremely well | 19:58 |
| mordred | "we'll get to it" can sound like we're blowing someone off in the midst of a crisis for them - which is not always what we're doing - but we don't always have the time to explain that in th emoment | 19:58 |
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| mordred | also agree with fungi | 19:58 |
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| pabelanger | jeblair: ack, that's how I contacted mordred | 19:58 |
| fungi | we have a few more topics we're not getting to, (gerrit disk utilization, project renaming, vexxhost control plane hosting) so i'll put those first on next week's agenda | 19:59 |
| anteaya | thank you | 19:59 |
| jeblair | my joke isn't funny anymore :( | 19:59 |
| rockyg | Setting expectations means that you almost always surpass them. A good thing. | 19:59 |
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| fungi | jeblair: sadly accurate actually | 19:59 |
| mordred | pabelanger: fwiw, I did not see that tweet until well after the situation was over | 19:59 |
| pabelanger | mordred: pew | 19:59 |
| mordred | so for the record, you contacted me via IRC :) | 19:59 |
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| fungi | okay, thanks everybody! see you all back in #openstack-infra | 20:00 |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 10 20:00:05 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-10-19.03.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-10-19.03.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-10-19.03.log.html | 20:00 |
| ttx | ohai | 20:00 |
| fungi | all yours, ttx | 20:00 |
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| * fungi wonders if the tc are all still on hiatus | 20:00 | |
| ttx | nope | 20:01 |
| dkushwaha | msg michael_bredel hi | 20:01 |
| ttx | who is here for the TC meeting ? | 20:01 |
| morgan | o/ | 20:01 |
| fungi | this place is usually full of o/ noise by now | 20:01 |
| morgan | \o | 20:01 |
| morgan | \o/ | 20:01 |
| mtreinish | fungi: I feel like I could use another hiatus :) | 20:01 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:01 |
| fungi | mtreinish: take a hiatus from your hiatus | 20:01 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy is excused -- best excuse ever ("got a quintet concert") | 20:01 |
| mordred | yup. he wins | 20:01 |
| morgan | mordred: ++ | 20:01 |
| ttx | annegentle, dims, dhellmann, flaper87, mtreinish, thingee, russellb: around ? | 20:02 |
| fungi | sabbatical | 20:02 |
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| ttx | oh, we have mtreinish | 20:02 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:02 |
| dims | o/ | 20:02 |
| claudiub | o/ | 20:02 |
| * edleafe lurks | 20:02 | |
| ttx | one more for quorum | 20:02 |
| mugsie | o/ | 20:02 |
| annegentle | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | yay, anne | 20:02 |
| thingee | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 10 20:02:45 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| * rockyg lurking under the bushes | 20:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:02 |
| morgan | ooh do we have enough? | 20:02 |
| ttx | Hi everyone! | 20:02 |
| mtreinish | ttx: oh, sry I guess I didn't raise my hand | 20:02 |
| ttx | morgan: we do | 20:02 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:02 |
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| morgan | ttx: okie | 20:03 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:03 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:03 |
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| ttx | #topic Update management expectations for release tags | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Update management expectations for release tags (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/308045 | 20:03 |
| * stevemar lurks in the background | 20:03 | |
| ttx | This is about adding a few warnings about release models, to help people pick the right ones | 20:03 |
| ttx | We have 7+ votes on this one so I'll approve it now, unless someone wants to discuss those further | 20:03 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 20:03 |
| mtreinish | ttx: I was just wondering there are a bunch of projects with tags today that don't meet the new requirements | 20:04 |
| flaper87 | wait, I don't want to discuss these further. I'm just saying hi :P | 20:04 |
| ttx | like ? | 20:04 |
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| mtreinish | tempest | 20:04 |
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| mtreinish | it doesn't go through the relmgt but it's tagged as one of the cycles ones | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | there are 2 ways to fix that | 20:05 |
| mtreinish | yeah, remove the tag or go through relmgt | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | right | 20:05 |
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| dhellmann | we'll do an audit of the other deliverables and talk to their owners | 20:06 |
| mtreinish | I just was saying the tags were previously just a cadence thing and now it's more than that. Is it just tempest in this case | 20:06 |
| ttx | should that block the tag change ? | 20:06 |
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| flaper87 | I don't think it should | 20:06 |
| mtreinish | ok, that's what I was wondering | 20:06 |
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| mtreinish | ttx: nah | 20:06 |
| ttx | release models have always been a catch-up game | 20:06 |
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| dhellmann | I believe I've removed tagging permission for most of these projects already | 20:07 |
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| ttx | trying to align the model with project reality | 20:07 |
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| ttx | ok, so if it's not an objection but just a side question, I propose we approve it and I #action dhellmann to look into the oddities | 20:07 |
| mordred | dhellmann: you're gonna get actioned | 20:07 |
| flaper87 | ++ | 20:07 |
| flaper87 | All for actioning dhellmann | 20:08 |
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| ttx | #action dhellmann to look into (or delegate looking into) release model oddities as a result of https://review.openstack.org/308045 | 20:08 |
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| ttx | and approved | 20:08 |
| * dhellmann notes that "delegate" and that ttx is also on the release team | 20:08 | |
| ttx | yeah, that was my way of half-actioning me | 20:09 |
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| ttx | #topic Naming for P & Q | 20:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Naming for P & Q (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:09 | |
| annegentle | action fractions | 20:09 |
| ttx | Those are 4 reviews clarifying the language in the naming rules so that they continue to work in the future | 20:09 |
| ttx | ...and narrowing the geographic locations for P and Q | 20:09 |
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| ttx | * Remove sentence about version numbers (https://review.openstack.org/312127) | 20:09 |
| ttx | * Clarify language around summit to name mapping (https://review.openstack.org/312128) | 20:09 |
| * mordred wrote patches | 20:10 | |
| ttx | * Add naming poll info for P release (https://review.openstack.org/310425) | 20:10 |
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| ttx | * Add naming poll info for Q release (https://review.openstack.org/310426) | 20:10 |
| ttx | mordred: want to talk about those ? | 20:10 |
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| mordred | sure! | 20:10 |
| ttx | mordred: do you like to talk ? | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | so when we say "the summit" we're talking about the thing we have now, and not the new gathering thing, correct? | 20:10 |
| mordred | so - 312127 is cleanup. it references an old method of numbering things | 20:10 |
| mordred | dhellmann: yes | 20:10 |
| ttx | dhellmann: yes | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | k | 20:11 |
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| mordred | 312128 is an attempt to capture the actual reality as it is now, but also in such a way that the p and q patches don't get caught into a sea of loosely defined words | 20:11 |
| ttx | dhellmann: basically this is picking option 3, as described in my comment on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/310425/ | 20:11 |
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| mordred | before we talk about p and q - any concerns/questions/hotdogs on the first two? | 20:12 |
| ttx | the benefit is that it's a single rule which works for the past and the future | 20:12 |
| mordred | ttx: ++ | 20:12 |
| sdague | slight diversion, on the numbering / naming. If the name for the summit and the release are not actually going to quite be the same thing. Have we considered synchronizing the numbers for components. Because which nova, cinder, keystone, barbican are all released together and were potentially tested together is becoming more confusing | 20:12 |
| ttx | whatever the future holds | 20:12 |
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| mordred | sdague: I'm confused by your confusion | 20:13 |
| mordred | sdague: can you restate that? | 20:13 |
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| * flaper87 confused by mordred's confusion on sdague's confusion | 20:13 | |
| sdague | mordred: tell me what versions of cinder, nova, keystone, neutron, glance were tested together in "mitaka" cycle | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | ISTM that we'll call it the $name PTG and the $name summit, so I'm not sure they would be different | 20:13 |
| ttx | the name for the release will be the name for the summit happening during its development. | 20:13 |
| mordred | yah. what ttx said | 20:13 |
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| mordred | this should not change that | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | sdague : http://releases.openstack.org/mitaka/index.html | 20:14 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: sure, but I bet know one can tell off the top of their head | 20:14 |
| sdague | anyway, it's a diversion, we can move on | 20:14 |
| * mordred would just grab the stable/mitaka branch of openstack/openstack ... | 20:14 | |
| ttx | sdague: that's not really a new issue introduced by this patch though | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | sdague : probably not. and that will only get worse over time as more projects are added. Does it make sense to add something in Ocata and start numbering it somewhere other than 1? | 20:14 |
| ttx | http://ttx.re/new-versioning.html | 20:15 |
| ttx | June 26, 2015 | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | yeah, this has been an issue since we changed versions in liberty | 20:15 |
| sdague | dhellmann: yeh, I was thinking max(version) | 20:15 |
| * rockyg agrees with sdague and thinks maybe an inventory of stuff released to gether should be in every project? | 20:15 | |
| dhellmann | maybe we should talk about this separately from the naming? | 20:15 |
| ttx | the releases.o.o website is tracking the version numbers | 20:15 |
| sdague | because, especially log messages in components tend to indicate version numbers which are all unsycned | 20:15 |
| annegentle | I think the releases.openstack does have the inventory | 20:15 |
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| flaper87 | Having an inventory is fine, I'm not sure about aligning projects versions | 20:15 |
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| sdague | anyway, lets table to a future meeting | 20:16 |
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| flaper87 | ++ | 20:16 |
| sdague | it's a bit orthoginal | 20:16 |
| dims | ++ table | 20:16 |
| cdent | everything keeps going back to if openstack is a unitary thing, or a collection of disparate parts | 20:16 |
| mordred | cdent: it is a unitary thing | 20:16 |
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| mordred | always has been | 20:16 |
| mordred | and that has not changed | 20:16 |
| ttx | alright let me see how many votes we have now | 20:16 |
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| mordred | it was decided I think 4 or 5 years ago in a vote of what I think was actually teh TC but might have been the PPB | 20:17 |
| mordred | and to my knowledge nothing has changed that | 20:17 |
| dtroyer | mordred: except it (individual projects) doesn't seem to act like it a lot of the time… | 20:17 |
| ttx | Looks like we have enough to pass them all now. Objections ? | 20:17 |
| mordred | dtroyer: yes. that is correct | 20:17 |
| mordred | individual projects like to buck the One Project decision | 20:17 |
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| mordred | but lacking a decision to the contrary, the existing decision stands and part of our work is working with those projects to remove the disparity | 20:18 |
| annegentle | who makes sure projects do release notes? | 20:18 |
| sdague | maybe we should reopen in open discussion? | 20:18 |
| annegentle | (also can be tabled, heh) | 20:18 |
| annegentle | yeah | 20:18 |
| ttx | I'll take that as a "go ahead, approve" | 20:18 |
| dims | ++ttx | 20:18 |
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| flaper87 | ttx: go | 20:18 |
| annegentle | let's name us some releases | 20:18 |
| ttx | done | 20:18 |
| ttx | #topic Update Magnum Description and Mission | 20:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Update Magnum Description and Mission (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:19 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/311476 | 20:19 |
| ttx | This one is the result of a discussion at the Summit around Magnum's scope | 20:19 |
| ttx | The commit message summarizes the discussion better than I can | 20:19 |
| mordred | ttx: did you approve the P and Q things too? I guess that means I get to go do some work :) | 20:19 |
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| ttx | mordred: yes | 20:19 |
| ttx | This will result in a new project team being created to focus on the abstraction API side of things | 20:19 |
| ttx | mordred: looks like they took our suggestion for the name afaict | 20:20 |
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| ttx | IMHO the split will really help since those are two different use cases with two different user bases | 20:20 |
| ttx | And confusing the two really hurt the messaging around Magnum in the past | 20:20 |
| dhellmann | ttx: this *may* result in that -- I don't remember anyone actually volunteering to do that work in the summit session | 20:20 |
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| thingee | Aside from the usage of scaling which I guess is addressed, that was my only thought. | 20:20 |
| flaper87 | I believe the split will help clarifying the goal, which was confusing to many (including me) | 20:20 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I've seen launchpad groups being created | 20:20 |
| dhellmann | ah, ok | 20:20 |
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| annegentle | split good in this case. | 20:21 |
| dims | flaper87 : indeed | 20:21 |
| ttx | hmm, although the name is already taken | 20:21 |
| ttx | anyway | 20:21 |
| flaper87 | thingee: I honestly think the use of scaling there is fine. It's really about spreading out COEs. | 20:21 |
| mordred | \o/ | 20:21 |
| annegentle | ttx what was the name? | 20:21 |
| ttx | Since Hongbin (PTL) pushed the most recent patchset I consider he is OK with the current wording | 20:21 |
| * mordred has named yet another openstack project | 20:21 | |
| ttx | annegentle: Higgins, the butler in Magnum | 20:21 |
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| annegentle | hee | 20:21 |
| thingee | flaper87: my thought was whether it's COE's themselves, not magnum scaling. | 20:22 |
| hongbin | Confirm. I am fine with that | 20:22 |
| ttx | thingee: COEs don't autoscale | 20:22 |
| ttx | they need a lot of help, which Magnum provides | 20:22 |
| dims | thingee : operators can scale up COE's with COE's cooperation :) | 20:22 |
| ttx | apps deployed on COEs autoscale | 20:22 |
| ttx | (as long as there is enough space on the COE) | 20:23 |
| dims | ttx : y that too | 20:23 |
| ttx | was still missing a couple of TC members votes last I looked | 20:23 |
| ttx | Questions ? | 20:23 |
| ttx | Looks like we have 9+votes now | 20:24 |
| flaper87 | dims: I like the "with COE's cooperation" part | 20:24 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:24 |
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| * morgan is waiting for the page to load. | 20:24 | |
| dims | :) | 20:24 |
| morgan | #coffeeshopwifi | 20:24 |
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| * thingee is on the same wifi - it's no good. | 20:24 | |
| ttx | ok, approving now | 20:24 |
| ttx | #topic Add golang as an approved language | 20:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add golang as an approved language (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:25 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/312267 | 20:25 |
| ttx | This one is likely to take a few meetings before we come to a conclusion, especially with the ML thread being in full swing | 20:25 |
| dims | the thread is *still* active | 20:25 |
| mordred | morgan: I read that as "coffees hop" | 20:25 |
| ttx | The programming language resolution from last year opens the door to supporting new languages in OpenStack official projects | 20:25 |
| * thingee waits for termie to appear | 20:25 | |
| morgan | mordred: that too | 20:25 |
| ttx | #link http://governance.openstack.org/resolutions/20150901-programming-languages.html | 20:25 |
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| ttx | It explains that we should weigh the technical benefits for OpenStack (using the best tool for the job) against the community costs (community fragmentation, infra overhead...) | 20:26 |
| ttx | The proposal is that we add Go as a supported language for official OpenStack projects, so that performance-sensitive data-plane pieces of Swift, rewritten in Go, could be merged in mainline code | 20:26 |
| ttx | Designate has similar needs for a DNS server proxy, and would use Go for that if we added it | 20:26 |
| ttx | Before this goes in every direction, I'd like to try to structure the discussion | 20:26 |
| mordred | thingee: perhaps the openstack version of godwin's law sohuld be called "Thingee's Law" and should be "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving termie approaches 1" | 20:26 |
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| ttx | First discuss the perceived community costs, then the technical benefits for OpenStack, and then weigh one against the other | 20:27 |
| mugsie | ttx: well, we were going to propose something simlar if swift hadn't | 20:27 |
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| mordred | ttx++ | 20:27 |
| flaper87 | mugsie: I assume we == designate | 20:27 |
| ttx | So... community costs first | 20:27 |
| mugsie | flaper87: yeah | 20:27 |
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| ttx | Adding any language is a bit costly in community terms, but we should try to estimate and quantify how costly Go is likely to be | 20:27 |
| ttx | First cost is community fragmentation, which was raised by bswartz on the ML | 20:27 |
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| ttx | "strongly believe that mixing 2 languages within a project is always the wrong decision, and doubly so if one of those languages is a niche language. The reason is simple: it's hard enough to find programmers who are competent in one language -- finding programmers who know both languages well will be nearly impossible. You'll end up with core reviewers who can't review half of the code and | 20:28 |
| ttx | developers who can only fix bugs in half the code." | 20:28 |
| thingee | mordred: very good - but mostly because he would've wanted us to go this path eventually :) | 20:28 |
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| * bswartz1 lurks | 20:28 | |
| flaper87 | ttx: yeah, I pointed that out on the review as well. I admit this bit worries me. | 20:28 |
| ttx | flaper87: bswartz1: that's definitely a valid concern | 20:28 |
| mordred | we've seen this pain to a degree with python and javascript | 20:29 |
| ttx | I think of all languages we could add Go is not the worse | 20:29 |
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| mordred | it's not just theoretical | 20:29 |
| * amrith mumbles something inaudible about .NET | 20:29 | |
| ttx | since there is some decent overlap in communities | 20:29 |
| * edleafe smacks amrith | 20:29 | |
| * notmyname sees IRC client light up | 20:29 | |
| clarkb | mordred: and java | 20:29 |
| ttx | (more than between Python and Java or Python and C) | 20:29 |
| annegentle | how do we get operators input? packagers? | 20:29 |
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| morgan | ttx: ++ on go not being the worst | 20:30 |
| flaper87 | Eventually, I believe we'll end up with a split community. Not every Go developer is a pthon developer and the other way around. | 20:30 |
| thingee | there have been some people in thread speaking on it's maturity. seems like most of the pain pointsthere were captured in the last infra meeting | 20:30 |
| mordred | well, I mean we've seen the issues in active openstack projects where the project is in two languages - python and javascript being the combo that we have currently | 20:30 |
| mtreinish | mordred: yeah, I see that issue in openstack-health (granted it's a big example) | 20:30 |
| thingee | wrt to dependnecy management | 20:30 |
| ttx | For JavaScript we basically considered that the fragmentation was a necessary evil -- you can't program a client side web interface in Python | 20:30 |
| mtreinish | s/it's/it isn't/ | 20:30 |
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| ttx | but the fragmentation exists | 20:30 |
| mordred | exactly | 20:30 |
| flaper87 | ++ | 20:30 |
| mordred | it's not a show-stopper | 20:30 |
| mordred | it's just a thing | 20:30 |
| mordred | and is a real cost | 20:30 |
| ttx | A project like StoryBoard definitely suffered from being coded in Python + Javascript, requires dual expertise to be a core there | 20:31 |
| dims | we have had projects cope already - "We already had that, for example in Horizon, moving from a mostly Python | 20:31 |
| dims | oriented community to a mostly JavaScript community." from Matthias | 20:31 |
| Kiall | While I understand the difficultly for contributers, was this not raised when allowing other languages was first approved? Once more than 1 language is allowed, especially "server side" projects, the fragmentation is inevitable - is this then a separate discussion around allowing dual languages in a single project vs allowing Go (or <insert language here>) into OpenStack? | 20:31 |
| annegentle | ttx: our community is more than devs, naturally. So I want to hear more technical info on the downstream effects, can you run multiple sourced services when coded in both Go and Python? or is it one or the other? | 20:32 |
| dims | should be upto the project and cores to take the plunge i think | 20:32 |
| mugsie | dims: ++ | 20:32 |
| mordred | Kiall: it's purely a discussion of the community costs currently | 20:32 |
| flaper87 | dims: That's one of the reason I don't contribute to Horizon. I just don't do JS. | 20:32 |
| ttx | Kiall: I think if the language is really needed, then this outweighs the cost. It's a trade-off | 20:32 |
| ttx | but we should just not underestimate the community fragmentation cost | 20:32 |
| Kiall | mordred: Right, but those costs must have been weighed when http://governance.openstack.org/resolutions/20150901-programming-languages.html was approved, no? | 20:32 |
| flaper87 | annegentle: ++ on packagers and ops feedback needed | 20:32 |
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| annegentle | does it need a separate gate? or is supporting Go a similar sized effort to the javascript efforts? | 20:32 |
| thingee | mordred: my only show-stopper has been support in gate and understanding that. Happy to see the last infra meeting touch on this. Without gate testing, we don't really have much to show. | 20:32 |
| amrith | dims, I disagree. I think the projects and the cores should have an input but the decision should not be delegated down (if that is what you implied) | 20:32 |
| ttx | Kiall: no, we decided that we would exmaine each language case-by-case | 20:32 |
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| mordred | Kiall: no - that was more about asserting that there was no specific python requirement | 20:33 |
| dtroyer | annegentle: Go doesn't have the co-installability issues that Python does… static-linking effectively makes every binary like a packaged venv | 20:33 |
| notmyname | annegentle: flaper87: from the swift side, we've got that. we've already seen swift+golang deployed together in prod | 20:33 |
| mordred | Kiall: and that we'd address specific suggestions as they arose using our best judgement | 20:33 |
| Kiall | ttx+mordred: noted. | 20:33 |
| dims | amrith : here we can choose that golang is a valid option. then projects can choose where to add that to their arsenal | 20:33 |
| flaper87 | Everyone, please, let's focus on the community cost for now. | 20:33 |
| annegentle | dtroyer I've seen that for clients, okay. | 20:33 |
| morgan | if infra has the tools they need and the questions are resolved around it for reproducible installs/builds/testing it is less of a concern to me. | 20:33 |
| ttx | Second type of community cost is infra / QA / release management support | 20:33 |
| flaper87 | notmyname: that's actually great news | 20:33 |
| devananda | I agree that the fragmentation concern, within a project, is a worthwhile concern. We've seen it within Ironic | 20:33 |
| morgan | but it is a serious concern if we don't have that answered. | 20:33 |
| mugsie | is there a bigger community cost from allow just some projects, or allowing a free for all? | 20:34 |
| mugsie | allowing* | 20:34 |
| ttx | do we have any idea what we are getting into there ? | 20:34 |
| mordred | morgan, thingee: we had the beginnings of the discussion with notmyname in the previous infra meeting about infra needs | 20:34 |
| jeblair | dtroyer: it may or may not have similar issues when it comes to distro packaging (coinstallability isn't just about virtualenvs, it's also about dependency management and packaging/distribution) | 20:34 |
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| amrith | dims, that brings me to my concern on this which is how the intended governance model would work. Is what is being discussed here "Go for Swift" or "Go for All" | 20:34 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I haven't really started looking at what it would take to release go code using our current systems for releasing other things | 20:34 |
| ttx | mordred, jeblair: any chance you could summarize the early discussion on infra cost ? | 20:34 |
| morgan | mordred: ++ i was watching. but seeing that move in a positive direction would be a requirement for me to sign off on this move. | 20:34 |
| mordred | ttx: it's very early | 20:35 |
| dtroyer | jeblair: right, but that is now a build-time/package-time issue, not a deployment issue | 20:35 |
| morgan | and additions. | 20:35 |
| mordred | so - the main thing is that we've got some design thinking to do | 20:35 |
| Kiall | ttx: IMO, not really. We'll not have a reasonable idea until we try it. | 20:35 |
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| mordred | go has a very different set of assumptions | 20:35 |
| thingee | mugsie: gate testing is a community cost - if you consider free for all | 20:35 |
| david-lyle | Horizon has a lot of issues with fragmentation, and JS is a reasonable knowledge expectation for UI developers, but it also inhibits outside contribution | 20:35 |
| morgan | because i don't want to see us say "Lang X is GREAT! AND WE USE IT" with out a path on the infra front. | 20:35 |
| mordred | which means that we have to learn things about what tooling go has now | 20:35 |
| mordred | and figure out how it fits in with the rest of things | 20:35 |
| flaper87 | I certainly don't feel comfortable letting this in until we have a better understanding of what the pla is CI/Infra wise | 20:35 |
| mordred | we're in the phase right now of collecting reuqirements | 20:35 |
| mugsie | yeap. but less fragemtation is a potential plus (as there might be more people familair with go) | 20:35 |
| thingee | flaper87: +1 | 20:36 |
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| devananda | will there be an expectation that a go-project publish its docs in the same format as python projects? | 20:36 |
| bswartz | It seems to me that teams which wish to implement parts of their projects in Go (or any other language) could do so outside the tent and integrate with projects inside the tent in exactly the same manner that all 3rd party vendors integrate | 20:36 |
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| mordred | mugsie: just to be clear - one of openstack's problems (and it has many) is not ability to find contributors | 20:36 |
| sdague | mugsie: but will they be familiar with our very python way of doing it? Like imposing python concepts around docs? | 20:36 |
| devananda | or that a go-sub-project's docs be written into the docs of the parent-project? | 20:36 |
| morgan | mordred: so i think this is where we can continue to explore the CI story and infra story before we need to sign off on this choice (and it sound slike we might need to think about this for more than just golang) | 20:36 |
| thingee | so as said in the review, let designate and swift begin showing collaboration on this effort by figuring out the ci/infra pieces together. | 20:36 |
| annegentle | and, what definition of complete for infra/test/doc/release would allow a Go project to start? | 20:36 |
| morgan | thingee: ++ | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | bswartz: right | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | thingee: ++ | 20:36 |
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| mordred | annegentle: I think we need to have an idea of what the issues are, that they are solvable, and who is going to work on them | 20:37 |
| flaper87 | ok, my IRC exploded and it's getting hard to follow. | 20:37 |
| annegentle | devananda I'd like discussion on that docs Q as well | 20:37 |
| mordred | annegentle: I don't personally think we need them all solved at the outset | 20:37 |
| ttx | I think all cross-project team need to do their homework and tell us what a world with Go would look like from their perspectrive | 20:37 |
| * amrith tries to parse mordred's last comment | 20:37 | |
| annegentle | mordred nor do I, but a list would help. | 20:37 |
| thingee | mordred: +1 | 20:37 |
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| amrith | ... " one of openstack's problems (and it has many) is not ability to find contributors" | 20:37 |
| morgan | bswartz: i am not willing to prevent non-python inclusion if we have the other bits lined up. | 20:37 |
| mordred | amrith: I think we need to have at least identified the issues and who is going to work on solving them | 20:37 |
| mordred | oh. that | 20:37 |
| amrith | I think 'not' in the wrong place, maybe. ok | 20:38 |
| bswartz | morgan: it's another option which should be considered | 20:38 |
| mordred | amrith: mugsie made a comment about possibly opening the door to the potential hordes of go devs | 20:38 |
| devananda | ttx: ++ | 20:38 |
| annegentle | heh, off the top of my head, no special treatment for Go docs. That makes things easier. | 20:38 |
| morgan | bswartz: i think it is unreasonable to say "no languages but python/js (at this point)" out of hand. but coming up with the story/way to handle it is important before we specifically include it | 20:38 |
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| mordred | amrith: I was merely pointing out that finding developers is not a probelm we have currently | 20:38 |
| mordred | in fact, if we could have a few less it would be nice | 20:38 |
| annegentle | notmyname if you can think of a Go-based doc system we should look into, let me know. | 20:38 |
| mugsie | mordred: I doubt there will be hoards, but there might be more people in the community with familiarity of both languages | 20:38 |
| morgan | bswartz: am willing to say this will come up again even if we ask it to be 3rd party for now. | 20:38 |
| mordred | annegentle: last we chatted, I think "godoc" was tossed out as the thing that did dev-level docs | 20:38 |
| annegentle | mordred yeah that's sort of the point here, should we prioritize and focus? | 20:38 |
| ttx | the release management team will look into that too, and I suspect the discussion with infra will continue this week as well | 20:38 |
| amrith | mordred, I think there are different problems in different projects but let's stay on the 'go-train' for now. | 20:38 |
| mugsie | instead of just a small group of people in swift + designate | 20:39 |
| timsim | annegentle: Go has a certain level of documentation built in https://godoc.org/golang.org/x/tools/cmd/godoc | 20:39 |
| morgan | it might be the ultimate solution, but... we'll see as the convo progresses | 20:39 |
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| notmyname | annegentle: it's on the list of stuff to answer. currently the full extent for the answer is "godoc + sphinx". (which isn't a full answer, obviously) | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | I think we should move gradually with this inclusion. If anything, we should start just with specific cases rather than opening the gate to every project. | 20:39 |
| devananda | ttx: it seems there are two threads to the discussion. a) social fragmentation of project teams b) technical challenges to meeting existing expectations around shared infrastructure | 20:39 |
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| annegentle | notmyname timsim check. | 20:39 |
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| clarkb | one of the things that I am noticing is that a large part of the language change choice seems to be based on the performance of a specific implementation detail in how we use python: eventlet | 20:39 |
| mordred | devananda: ++ | 20:39 |
| mordred | clarkb: ++ | 20:39 |
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| * mordred stabs eventlet | 20:40 | |
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| amrith | clarkb +++++ | 20:40 |
| annegentle | devananda I think a) should include fragmentation of all community teams. | 20:40 |
| cdent | clarkb++ | 20:40 |
| clarkb | it is probably also worth considering that maybe we have made poor lib choices and that langs are not necessarily the thing to get stabbed here | 20:40 |
| dims | clarkb : true | 20:40 |
| flaper87 | clarkb: +1 | 20:40 |
| devananda | clarkb: ++ | 20:40 |
| dhellmann | clarkb : yeah, I'd love to see a comparison with asyncio or twisted or some other similar framework | 20:40 |
| mestery | clarkb: ++ | 20:40 |
| ttx | clarkb: that's part of the technical benefits discussion | 20:40 |
| morgan | so lets be fair, if the social fragmentation is a real concern, isn't it fair to let a couple projects lead into it? | 20:40 |
| dtroyer | yay! back to twisted! | 20:40 |
| morgan | and see how it goes (beyond horizon) | 20:40 |
| dims | clarkb : i still think having one more choice is not bad. projects can choose to take adopt it or not | 20:40 |
| notmyname | for swift, it's not eventlet that's the problem. it's the way threads are handled | 20:41 |
| morgan | espe. with the overlap within python and golang communities? | 20:41 |
| clarkb | dims: sure there may be a valid reason to switch it just seems odd to say "eventlet is bad so we used Go" | 20:41 |
| clarkb | wat | 20:41 |
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| ttx | so, to stay on the community costs side of the discussion... | 20:41 |
| flaper87 | morgan: mentioned that above. Letting 1 or 2 projects experiment should be fine as long as the concerns on Ifra/CI are clarified | 20:41 |
| morgan | ttx: ++ | 20:41 |
| annegentle | morgan but that's part of the problem of defining community costs ONLY with dev cost. | 20:41 |
| clarkb | its definitely a way to address that issue, but its a very high cost one compared to potential alternatives | 20:41 |
| mordred | yah ... SO | 20:41 |
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| mordred | I'd like to disagree with morgan | 20:41 |
| mordred | the costs on the infra side to support go are not going to be small | 20:41 |
| dims | flaper87 : swift and designate have already done PoC's | 20:41 |
| ttx | devananda listed two aspects of community costs, are there others ? | 20:41 |
| mordred | it's going to be a LOT of work | 20:41 |
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| thingee | dtroyer: NO https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/UnifiedServiceArchitecture | 20:42 |
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| mordred | so doing that work to allow one or two projects to 'experiment' is a bad approach | 20:42 |
| thingee | :) | 20:42 |
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| annegentle | there's way more than dev cost here. infra, test, doc, packaging, deploying | 20:42 |
| flaper87 | dims: I know but POC is out of the TC governance and they've done that on specific environments and different communities circunstances | 20:42 |
| mordred | the work on all of the things may well be completely worthwhile | 20:42 |
| devananda | morgan: we already have fragmentation between python and JS community, as was pointed out earlier | 20:42 |
| flaper87 | I'm worried about the community not the technical implications in the specific projects | 20:42 |
| morgan | mordred: is it true we have to do someo of this work *anyway* though for any new language? | 20:42 |
| mordred | morgan: there is a cost for every new language, yes | 20:42 |
| morgan | is it worth generalizing the approach mostly at this time, and then move into "language" specifics? | 20:43 |
| mordred | this is the reason that we don't want people just doing new languages all the time | 20:43 |
| morgan | or are we already past the generalization part | 20:43 |
| mordred | and why we're talking about it now | 20:43 |
| dims | mordred : this resolution does not do that...just go | 20:43 |
| mordred | I'm just saying that I think we can sort out the pros/cons before asking someone to go figure out deps and mirroring for infra | 20:43 |
| mordred | dims: yes. exactly | 20:43 |
| mordred | oh. wait. I was disagreeing with flaper87 not morgan | 20:43 |
| dims | lol | 20:43 |
| devananda | morgan: I believe adding another language will create another "group" of folks that, while part of the big tent, feel disadvantaged and perhaps struggle to work with the Python community | 20:43 |
| morgan | mordred: hehe. | 20:43 |
| mordred | I think | 20:43 |
| flaper87 | mordred: what did I do now? | 20:43 |
| mordred | no idea | 20:43 |
| mordred | I was disagreeing with SOMEONE | 20:43 |
| mordred | who may or may not even be here | 20:44 |
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| ttx | OK, we need to move on | 20:44 |
| dims | devananda : now we are telling them to go away, which is not good either | 20:44 |
| mordred | ttx: but we're having so much fun! | 20:44 |
| devananda | mordred: +1 to figuring out the _technical_ costs of to sharing infrastructure across languages | 20:44 |
| devananda | mordred: before folks go off and do a bunch of work | 20:44 |
| mordred | devananda: yes | 20:44 |
| mordred | although I think it's not just technical | 20:44 |
| mordred | there is a social cost here | 20:44 |
| ttx | So I think we managed to narrow down the community costs to two broad categories, one of them needing investigation by various teams | 20:44 |
| mordred | which sounds techincal | 20:44 |
| mordred | but I tink is a community thing | 20:44 |
| devananda | and i believe that can be done by a collaboration between some TC / CPL folks, and some golang folks | 20:44 |
| flaper87 | mordred: social cost, that's the biggest of my worries here | 20:44 |
| mordred | that is - there are a different set of underlying assumptions as to goals/desires baked in to various languages | 20:45 |
| ttx | I'd like to have time for a quick summit postmortem in open discussion while we still remember what happened there | 20:45 |
| dims | mordred : we are heavily weighted towards what we know...python | 20:45 |
| devananda | I'm not assuming that those are the same people -- but if there are golang experts on the TC / CPL team, great :) | 20:45 |
| mordred | go makes a different set of tradeoffs | 20:45 |
| mordred | which si great | 20:45 |
| mordred | it should | 20:45 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: I would also like time to discuss the leadership training trip | 20:45 |
| mordred | but mapping those social expectation tradeoffs into our world | 20:45 |
| ttx | so I propose we defer the discussion on the technical benefits of Go to next week -- that will let the ML thread continue to grow | 20:45 |
| mordred | is a community issue in addition to a techincal issue | 20:45 |
| devananda | dhellmann: as would I | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | perhaps we should discuss this again next week and summarize today's discussion in the review | 20:45 |
| mordred | a case in point - go has an amazing ability to reference depends directly via git | 20:45 |
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| mordred | which is neat and tehcnical | 20:46 |
| mordred | but it places a very different value on 'releases' than we traditionally have | 20:46 |
| * dhellmann would find all of this easier to digest in a document instead of irc | 20:46 | |
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| mordred | and the broader go community operates in that way | 20:46 |
| amrith | morded .. it is a nightmare for packagers ... | 20:46 |
| dims | mordred : y we peeled that onion the other day on -dev | 20:46 |
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| mordred | dims: awesome | 20:46 |
| dims | amrith : y zigo already mentioned that | 20:46 |
| ttx | OK - let's continue on the thread, I'll summarize the discussion on community costs on the review, and talk technical benefits next week | 20:46 |
| dtroyer | mordred: that is one thing we will nedd to have specific guidance about… just because tooling allows bad practice doen't make it right… so yeah… | 20:46 |
| mordred | dtroyer: and not just allows - but actively promotes | 20:47 |
| dims | dtroyer : ++ | 20:47 |
| ttx | #action ttx to summarize community costs start-of-discussion on the review | 20:47 |
| mordred | dtroyer: vendoring code is considered "the right thing" in the go community | 20:47 |
| dims | yay ttx :) | 20:47 |
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| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:47 |
| mordred | dtroyer: and there are several sets of tools to make it easier for people to do | 20:47 |
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| ttx | * Summit postmortem | 20:47 |
| ttx | So... how did Austin work for you ? | 20:47 |
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| ttx | I'd like us to discuss this today while it's still fresh | 20:48 |
| thingee | good bbq | 20:48 |
| ttx | I was pretty happy with the Upstream development track, I think we should try to have that in Barcelona again | 20:48 |
| mordred | the keynotes are still a wasted chunk of my day, but are a great time for me to get to sleep in a little | 20:48 |
| sdague | mordred: you should have come to the dev lounge | 20:48 |
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| mordred | i'd rather be working with people during that time | 20:48 |
| annegentle | nice to have vids to point to also for Upstream dev track | 20:48 |
| mestery | thingee: Gus's Fried Chicken was great too :) | 20:48 |
| dtroyer | cost me more productive time than I would have guessed | 20:48 |
| annegentle | fast video posts, dang. | 20:48 |
| sdague | dev lounge needs a size increase | 20:48 |
| mtreinish | thingee: yes, but at the same time also not enough bbq :) | 20:48 |
| mordred | sdague: maybe next time let's schedule things | 20:48 |
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| dhellmann | I liked the upstream track, too. | 20:48 |
| dims | ++ dhellmann | 20:49 |
| ttx | mordred: we managed to get the DS area doors open during keynotes this time | 20:49 |
| flaper87 | mordred: +1 on the keynotes feedback. I normally don't show up | 20:49 |
| mestery | The location was nice, the dev area worked well! | 20:49 |
| sdague | I only popped over the the upstream track once, because it was on the other side of the universe | 20:49 |
| dhellmann | yeah, the walking on monday killed my feet | 20:49 |
| mordred | upstream track was good - it was a shame it was on the same day as cross-project and ops - and yes, it was very far away | 20:49 |
| ttx | I was pretty disappointed by the productivity of the cross-project workshops day | 20:49 |
| sdague | I think that distance was sub optimal | 20:49 |
| annegentle | I think I had 14k steps Mon. and Tues. | 20:49 |
| devananda | I never made it into the expo hall | 20:49 |
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| sdague | devananda: me either | 20:49 |
| mordred | ttx: yah. there were too many things co-scheduled | 20:49 |
| ttx | Feels like we have the same discussions every 6 months, we spend 20 min reexplaining the issue to the attendees, we don't have the people we need in the room and then the 40-min clock hits | 20:49 |
| Kiall | mordred: didn't you give a few of those keynotes? ;) | 20:49 |
| sdague | ttx: I feel like the ones I were in were pretty good | 20:49 |
| mordred | Kiall: heh. I gave very few of them | 20:50 |
| sdague | but, again, it's about being at an actionable middle | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | we had some schedule conflicts that I think could have been avoided in some of the project tracks (oslo & nova in one case) | 20:50 |
| devananda | ttx: I felt that they were hit-and-miss. a couple x-project sessions I was in went well | 20:50 |
| ttx | sdague: that's because you avoided the ones that were repeats :) | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | we need to do a better job with PTLs of planning | 20:50 |
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| sdague | ttx: yes, I did | 20:50 |
| dougwig | random observation, going to this summit with the idea of a split summit in mind, made me very much wish the summit was split already. | 20:50 |
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| sdague | intentionally | 20:50 |
| mordred | sdague: we had a session we wanted you in | 20:50 |
| devananda | but there were some decidedly difficult conflicts on Tuesday for me | 20:50 |
| mordred | sdague: but you were in another session | 20:50 |
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| anteaya | dougwig: me too | 20:50 |
| mordred | sdague: so the one you weren't in didn't get as far as it could have | 20:50 |
| ttx | dougwig: yes, same here | 20:50 |
| dims | dougwig : +1 | 20:50 |
| mordred | sdague: but you're juist special | 20:50 |
| devananda | I also didn't go to *any* of the main conference tracks this time | 20:50 |
| sdague | \o/ | 20:50 |
| mordred | devananda: me either | 20:50 |
| devananda | since I wasn't speaking / on any panels, I completely avoided that building (aside from check in) | 20:50 |
| mordred | devananda: well, I went to the ones I was giving | 20:50 |
| edleafe | devananda: me neither | 20:50 |
| ttx | devananda: did you wish you could ? | 20:51 |
| mordred | no! I did go to one - I went to gothicmindfood's talk | 20:51 |
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| devananda | mordred: oh! right! I went to that one | 20:51 |
| devananda | ttx: yep. that's actually an event I would like to attend | 20:51 |
| mestery | I went to mordred and ttx's talk :) | 20:51 |
| mordred | devananda: ++ | 20:51 |
| annegentle | I went between buildings for the appdev track every day | 20:51 |
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| * gothicmindfood enjoyed all the hecklers from the TC | 20:51 | |
| devananda | a lot of folks on the Ironic team skipped out of the design summit to attend vendor talks, or operator talks about ironic | 20:51 |
| mordred | I would love to spend time in the conference | 20:51 |
| devananda | some folks are doing really cool things with the project, it turns out :) | 20:51 |
| mordred | but as usual, that is not an option | 20:51 |
| ttx | Another takeaway I got was that the workroom trick (trying to lure people away from work rooms to get things done) is no longer 100% working | 20:51 |
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| ttx | some of those rooms were completely overcrowded | 20:52 |
| mordred | ttx: I do not think the workroom distinction worked at all this time | 20:52 |
| mestery | ttx: That has NEVER worked for neutron | 20:52 |
| mordred | at leat not for me | 20:52 |
| ttx | mordred: it was only a matter of time before they saw through the trick | 20:52 |
| devananda | ttx: the distinction did not make any difference for ironic this time | 20:52 |
| morgan | gothicmindfood: LOL glad you enjoyed our presence ;) | 20:52 |
| ttx | ok, any other feedback ? | 20:52 |
| ttx | dhellmann wanted to discuss leadership training | 20:53 |
| devananda | lunch options on the dev side were the worst I've seen in a while | 20:53 |
| Kiall | Workshops being 2 blocks away kinda sucked :) | 20:53 |
| rockyg | yeah. don't confuse glutenfree with gluten containing stuff in the same lunch box | 20:53 |
| Kiall | (Designate gave one, I nearly got lost..) | 20:53 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: I can give a quick update | 20:53 |
| devananda | rockyg: yea.... :( | 20:53 |
| dims | devananda : i had to go out for all lunches :) | 20:53 |
| dhellmann | yes, I've noticed that about 1/2 of the TC has signed up to go to training. I've been waiting to see if there was a critical mass before committing. How many others who haven't signed up are doing the same? | 20:53 |
| ttx | ok, let's parallelize this | 20:53 |
| amrith | rockyg, you didn't like the vegan food with mayo eh? | 20:53 |
| gothicmindfood | we've got 10 ppl + me signed up over at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Leadershiptraining | 20:53 |
| ttx | feel free to shout summit feedback while gothicmindfood explains training | 20:53 |
| dhellmann | gothicmindfood : only about 7 of those are TC | 20:53 |
| rockyg | amrith, it was the pasta salad in the GF sandwich box | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | gothicmindfood : which is about 1/2 of the TC | 20:54 |
| * dims is on vacation that week | 20:54 | |
| * claudiub looks at the time, panics, and just throws in the networking-hyperv governance patch for review: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/311566/ | 20:54 | |
| gothicmindfood | I'm waiting to hear from dhellmann mestery johnthetubaguy and markmcclain about attendance | 20:54 |
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| gothicmindfood | I've also got 3 ppl who are not current or recent-former TC members who are interested | 20:54 |
| mordred | mestery: it's close-ish to where you live | 20:54 |
| jroll | oh, mestery lives around here too eh? :) | 20:54 |
| ttx | claudiub: will approve that one tomorrow morning unless someone complains | 20:54 |
| amrith | gothicmindfood, are you taking names of people who'd liek to attend? | 20:54 |
| gothicmindfood | dhellmann: some of those are recent-former TC | 20:54 |
| mordred | jroll: minnesota | 20:54 |
| jroll | aha | 20:54 |
| jroll | not that close :P | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | gothicmindfood : true | 20:55 |
| amrith | non-tc members, that is | 20:55 |
| mordred | jroll: :) | 20:55 |
| claudiub | ttx: gotcha, thanks. :) | 20:55 |
| mtreinish | jroll: yeah it is, it's all relative :) | 20:55 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: I think it's time to open to anyone | 20:55 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: current plan is to keep it open to TC and recent-former TC for the next two days, then open the rest of the slots up to the community | 20:55 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: I can do that, happily :) | 20:55 |
| ttx | ++ | 20:55 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: so - I'll send an email out tomorrow AM, EST to let people know they can go ahead and sign up | 20:55 |
| jroll | mtreinish: I think of close-ish as driveable but fair enough | 20:55 |
| gothicmindfood | even if they're not TC :) | 20:55 |
| amrith | gothicmindfood, thx. will keep eye open for that. | 20:55 |
| * tellesnobrega is away: I'm busy | 20:55 | |
| morgan | gothicmindfood: so how many slots will be open? | 20:56 |
| gothicmindfood | morgan: right now there are 9 more slots. | 20:56 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: If we get cross-community attendance I have ideas of hard leadership problems to discuss there :) | 20:56 |
| morgan | gothicmindfood: cool. | 20:56 |
| annegentle | thanks claudiub | 20:56 |
| gothicmindfood | I have also asked the Foundation if there are any staff there that might be interested, but that was an aside, and I didn't get the sense they wanted me to hold spots for them | 20:56 |
| mordred | dhellmann: it doesn't seem you got much of an answer from anyone who isn't on the list who isn't dims | 20:56 |
| annegentle | claudiub pretty sure it'll go on next week's agenda, never fear | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | mordred : no, not really | 20:57 |
| morgan | stevemar: ^ cc | 20:57 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: that sounds gnarly and awesome \o/ | 20:57 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: I'll talk to you about them once we have the attendance settled | 20:57 |
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| mordred | dhellmann: I could imagine johnthetubaguy having travel issues. I will however look askance at mestery if he skips, given it's one delta hub to another | 20:57 |
| ttx | dhellmann: does that answer your questions ? | 20:57 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: sounds good | 20:58 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I'll touch bases with some folks tomorrow. I think not everyone is here. | 20:58 |
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| ttx | OK, any other topic for open discussion ? | 20:58 |
| ttx | or random thoughts ? | 20:58 |
| ttx | or summit feedback ? | 20:58 |
| dims | ttx : 3 keynotes...i was shaking my head :( | 20:59 |
| ttx | the ones on the next day were better though :) | 20:59 |
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| mordred | ttx: yah. reitterating the dismay at some of the keynote content | 20:59 |
| mordred | ttx: would be nice | 20:59 |
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| edleafe | how about Intel re-writing Nova in Go? :( | 21:00 |
| thingee | thanks to dhellmann for raising that in the feedback session | 21:00 |
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| * dtroyer sees something shiny over there | 21:00 | |
| rockyg | app wasn't half bad. Just need to tie it into the phone clock on the "my sched" portion | 21:00 |
| ttx | ok, out of time | 21:00 |
| amrith | edleafe, c# | 21:00 |
| sdague | yeh, it would be nice if the keynotes were actually about openstack, and not random non openstack gorp | 21:00 |
| dhellmann | yes, the foundation folks were really receptive to that but I wouldn't want to speak for them on any action they plan to take | 21:00 |
| sdague | agree thanks dhellmann for bringing that up | 21:00 |
| dims | edleafe : you should have posted that just before the summit :) | 21:00 |
| ttx | We'll continue the discussion on Go next week, please chime on the thread if you have a strong opinion one way or another | 21:00 |
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| ttx | discussion next week will be focused on technical benefits | 21:00 |
| edleafe | dims: I'll time it for the next one :) | 21:00 |
| dims | lol edleafe | 21:01 |
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| dims | sounds good ttx | 21:01 |
| ttx | giving time for Infra/RelMgt/Doc to do their homework on Go support | 21:01 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone | 21:01 |
| amrith | ouch; did edleafe just throw that pitcher at me? | 21:01 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 10 21:01:27 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-05-10-20.02.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-05-10-20.02.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-05-10-20.02.log.html | 21:01 |
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| morgan | omg MEETING OVAR | 21:01 |
| morgan | thingee: lunch? | 21:01 |
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| mestery | mordred: This gogo on my current flight is killing my ability to respond to things here :( | 21:02 |
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| morgan | mestery: so .. normal for gogo? | 21:02 |
| mestery | mordred: But yeah, I need to look into this ASAP as I promised gothicmindfood | 21:02 |
| thingee | mestery: gogo is better than than the wifi we have this coffee shop. | 21:02 |
| thingee | mestery: and I'm using mosh for irc stuff | 21:02 |
| mestery | heh | 21:03 |
| mestery | :) | 21:03 |
| mestery | morgan: Sadly yes normal for gogo :( | 21:03 |
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| thingee | mestery: I will give a bad review to this coffee shop for their wifi. good coffee though. ;) | 21:03 |
| stevemar | gothicmindfood: morgan mordred oh for the tc leadership thing, i was looking into that, i thought it wasn't open to non-TCers | 21:03 |
| gothicmindfood | stevemar: I'll be opening it up tomorrow AM on the -dev list | 21:04 |
| gothicmindfood | :) | 21:04 |
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| mestery | thingee: At least the coffee is good! :) | 21:04 |
| morgan | gothicmindfood: i thought i'd specifically point stevemar at it... cause.. i could since it was being opened up | 21:04 |
| morgan | gothicmindfood: ^_^ | 21:04 |
| gothicmindfood | morgan: woot! | 21:04 |
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| thingee | mestery: I was mostly making a joke since it annoys me when people give a bad review on something that's not primarily their business - though maybe we're changing in that aspect that your internet connection is what makes a coffee shop. | 21:04 |
| thingee | :( | 21:04 |
| stevemar | morgan: was it you i asked about that? i spoke to someone about it.. | 21:05 |
| morgan | might have been me. | 21:05 |
| * morgan shrugs. | 21:05 | |
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