Tuesday, 2016-10-18

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hongbin_#startmeeting zun03:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Oct 18 03:00:07 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hongbin_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.03:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.03:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'zun'03:00
hongbin_#topic Roll Call03:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
mkrai_Madhuri Kumari03:00
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kenji-iHi, I'm Kenji Ishii, zun-ui developper03:01
hongbin_Welcome to join the meetng shubhams_ mkrai_ xuhaiwei_ Namrata kevinz03:01
hongbin_kenji-i: hey. good to see you here03:01
hongbin_#topic Announcements03:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: zun)"03:02
kenji-ihongbin_: thank you :)03:02
hongbin_1. There is no meeting next week (Oct 25) due to the OpenStack summit03:02
hongbin_2. Hongbin will be on vacation at Nov 1. mkrai_ will chair the meeting03:02
hongbin_that is all for the annoucement03:02
hongbin_any other annoucement from our team members?03:02
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mkrai_I think I have one :)03:03
hongbin_mkrai_: go ahead03:03
mkrai_hongbin_ will be presenting Zun at Barcelona summit. So whoever is attending summit please attend his session03:03
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cloud_playerbut I can't attend it. can share the ppt in advance?03:04
kevinzI will attend :-)03:04
xuhaiwei_when is the session?03:04
hongbin_#link https://www.openstack.org/summit/barcelona-2016/summit-schedule/events/16045/magnum-is-not-the-openstack-containers-service-how-about-zun03:05
hongbin_cloud_player: there will be vidoe recorded in youtube03:05
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hongbin_xuhaiwei_: Thursday, October 27, 9:50am-10:30am03:05
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hongbin_xuhaiwei_: you will go to the summit as well?03:05
xuhaiwei_got it, hongbin_03:05
cloud_playerthanks! @hongbin03:05
xuhaiwei_yes, I will go03:06
hongbin_xuhaiwei_: great03:06
shubhams_Good luck hongbin_03:06
hongbin_fyi, there is a design summit session for zun as well03:06
hongbin_#link https://www.openstack.org/summit/barcelona-2016/summit-schedule/events/17193/zun-work-session03:06
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hongbin_in this session, we will have a small group discussion for the project03:06
hongbin_that is all for the openstack summit03:07
hongbin_ok, advance topic03:07
hongbin_#topic Support interactive mode (adisky)03:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Support interactive mode (adisky) (Meeting topic: zun)"03:07
hongbin_#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/support-interactive-mode The BP03:07
hongbin_it looks adisky is not here03:07
hongbin_skip this one03:07
hongbin_#topic Container image store (mkrai)03:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Container image store (mkrai) (Meeting topic: zun)"03:08
hongbin_#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/glance-integration The BP03:08
hongbin_#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/383678/ Madhuri's patch03:08
hongbin_#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/380298/ Shubham's patch03:08
hongbin_mkrai_: shubhams_ ^^03:08
mkrai_I have submitted patch for container image driver03:08
mkrai_That currently includes Glance and Docker03:09
mkrai_Patch is up for review03:09
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mkrai_shubhams_ has submitted patch for adding image api endpoint03:09
mkrai_I guess after these two patches we will need few finishing patches to complete this bp03:10
mkrai_Any questions on it?03:10
hongbin_i reviewed these two patches, it looks good for me in general03:10
hongbin_no question from me03:11
mkrai_Thanks hongbin_ for reviewing03:11
mkrai_I guess that's all from our side03:11
hongbin_mkrai_: thanks mkrai_03:12
hongbin_next one03:12
hongbin_#topic Container network (hongbin)03:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Container network (hongbin) (Meeting topic: zun)"03:12
hongbin_#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/neutron-integration The BP03:12
hongbin_#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/365754/ The proposed spec (merged)03:12
hongbin_#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/380646/ The patch03:12
hongbin_the spec was merged. thanks for ppl who reviewed the spec03:13
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hongbin_i removed the wip prefix for the patch03:13
hongbin_that means the patch is ready for review (huge patch)03:13
mkrai_I will review this week03:13
hongbin_mkrai_: yes, take your time. it is quite huge03:14
hongbin_i tried to summarize the change in the commit message03:14
hongbin_however, do let me know if you need some help to review it03:14
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hongbin_that is all for this topic03:15
mkrai_sure will do that03:15
hongbin_#topic Open Discussion03:15
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: zun)"03:15
hongbin_who have a topic that needs to be discussed as a team?03:16
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mkrai_shubhams_ and I will be presenting Zun at Opensource India event03:16
hongbin_oh, that is great!03:16
mkrai_Hope we attract some developers :)03:16
hongbin_mkrai_: yeah, that will help to get more devs definitely03:17
hongbin_ok, it seems there is nothing else03:18
hongbin_all, thanks for joining the meeting, hope to see some of you in the barcelona summit03:19
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"03:19
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct 18 03:19:18 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)03:19
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-10-18-03.00.html03:19
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-10-18-03.00.txt03:19
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-10-18-03.00.log.html03:19
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eranrom#startmeeting storlets08:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Oct 18 08:00:54 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is eranrom. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.08:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: storlets)"08:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'storlets'08:00
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eranromLets start :-)08:02
eranrom#topic Newton branch08:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Newton branch (Meeting topic: storlets)"08:02
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eranromI have posted a small patch. Once reviewed, I can cut the branch.08:03
takashieranrom: thank you for working about that08:04
eranromsure, anything else on the release3 topic?08:05
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takashieranrom: Can I ask one question about the patch?08:05
eranromtakashi: please do.08:05
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takashieranrom: As far as I understand about the patch, you first put a pin about dependency to newton in master blanch08:05
takashiand after cutting of Newton branch, you will revert it on master, right?08:06
eranromright. Hope this makes sense.08:06
takashiI think there are another option to cut of Newton blanch first, and push a patch to put a pin to that stable branch08:07
kota_takashi: does it mean that patch includes the tag?08:08
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eranromkota_: Thanks I was just about to ask that :-)08:08
kota_takashi: usually, we are doing the release via land first at the master and make a tag for the commit and push it08:08
kota_(the method is available in the incuvation like swift3)08:09
takashikota_: ok08:09
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kota_let me take 5 minutes to move to my desk.08:10
kota_please continue w/o me08:10
takashimy little concern is that, if we cut newton release by current way, we will merge the pinning dependency and reverting it in master, right?08:10
eranromtakashi: kota_: Summarising: We land the patch, tag, create a branch. update master with a new patch to revert dependencies08:10
eranromtakashi: right08:11
takashiI just wanted to know if there are any way without merging that non-fastforward (pinning and reverting) change to master, but it seems to be required08:11
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takashibased on that explanation08:11
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eranromtakashi: Well, there might be a better way, only I am not aware of it.08:13
eranromperhaps we can ask the swift community next week.08:13
takashianyway, we don't have so long time. maybe we can discuss the way for that with tc members, for the next release08:14
takashiCurrently I do not have so big objection. will put +2 on the patch soon08:14
eranromtakashi: sure. Thanks!08:14
eranromDo we want 2 reviewers for this one?08:14
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takashieranrom: Can you have a look, kota_?08:15
takashieranrom: maybe that is better08:15
eranromtakashi: sure!08:15
eranromnext topic?08:15
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takashikota_: some background for you. We discussed to have Newton release before Barcelona summit.08:15
kota_takashi: sounds great08:16
kota_does it needs a volunteer to do something?08:16
eranromkota_: to review the patch I guess :-)08:16
kota_which one or two or ???08:17
eranromlets start with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/385866/08:17
kota_k, that one.08:17
eranromkota_: Thanks!08:17
takashikota_: that is the patch for tagging, which adds pin about dependency08:17
takashieranrom: all from my side about release. I'm ok to move to the next08:18
kota_or if takashi could review it, it's ok with single +2 because it looks just small changes08:18
takashikota_: ok08:18
eranromok thanks so moving to the next subject.08:18
kota_tbh, Swift also wants to cut a release in this or the next week in the barcelona because of closing critical bug.08:19
takashikota_: which you fixed :-)08:19
kota_so i may not have enough time to take a look that, sorry.08:19
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takashiok. will put +2+A later, with some comments based on this irc meeting result08:19
eranromtakashi: ok, note that I am putting Swift 2.9.0 as the pinned dep.08:20
eranromShould we update this (on the branch) once Swift has the new release next week?08:21
takashieranrom: ok. I found we need to consider to install keystone via git, and upgrade ubuntu version in the next release... but they should be addressed to Ocata cycle08:21
eranromtakashi: Agree!08:21
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takashieranrom: If that new release is coming as bug fix, we can move the pin08:22
takashinew release of swift08:22
eranromtakashi: alright. Thanks08:22
eranromSo moving on (take 2 :-))08:22
eranrom#topic Design Summit08:22
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eranromI am working on a presentation for the spark part, and thought I would also prepare some slides on the deep dive.08:23
eranromWanted to ask you what should I cover, or if there are subjects you would like to cover.08:23
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eranromthis is in the context of the FB and working session08:24
takashieranrom: Honestly speaking, I didn't think more that just checking etherpad topics,08:26
takashieranrom: but if we can prepare some, it sounds good, especially for new people08:26
eranromtakashi: Fair enough. I was thinking about our initial discussions where we thought os also doing some storlets deep dive in the context of the design session.08:27
eranromdon't worry about it. I will send you the presentation for a review08:27
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eranromI am even not sure how much time we will have for it.08:28
takashieranrom: thanks.08:28
eranromallright. This is all I had planned for today.08:29
eranromAny other topics?08:30
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takashinot so big updates. I'm still debugging the error in packaging work. I'd like to fix the problem before summit, but currently need to find the time for that...08:31
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takashithat's all from my side today.08:32
kota_k, as calling a few minutes before, I've been tighten up to Swift upstream work so no updates in recent.08:32
eranromtakashi: sure. Also here is a long holidays period so I do not have much time to do any progress other then getting ready for the summit :-)08:32
eranromkota_: sure.08:32
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takashieranrom, kota_: looking forward to seeing you at Barcelona!08:33
kota_all: enjoy and safe trip!08:33
eranromtakashi: kota_: Same here!!!08:33
eranromThanks! see you in Barcelina08:33
eranromBarcelona :-)08:33
takashisee you!08:34
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"08:34
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct 18 08:34:52 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)08:34
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storlets/2016/storlets.2016-10-18-08.00.html08:34
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storlets/2016/storlets.2016-10-18-08.00.txt08:34
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storlets/2016/storlets.2016-10-18-08.00.log.html08:34
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yanyanhu#startmeeting senlin13:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Oct 18 13:00:19 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yanyanhu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:00
zzxwillHello yanyanhu.13:00
lvdongbinghello yanyan13:00
yanyanhuhi, zzxwill13:00
yanyanhuhi, lvdongbing :)13:00
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yanyanhuhi, Qiming13:01
yanyanhulets wait for a while for other attender13:01
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yanyanhuok, lets start our discussion and others can join us later13:02
yanyanhuhere is the agenda13:02
yanyanhuplease feel free to add items you want to discuss13:02
yanyanhu#topic Newton/Ocata Work Items13:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Newton/Ocata Work Items (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:03
yanyanhuops, should be Ocata work items13:03
yanyanhufirst item, testing13:03
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yanyanhuperformance test, no progress this week13:03
yanyanhuAPI test13:03
yanyanhuwe may need some improvement here13:04
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yanyanhuby adding exception message verification for negative API test cases13:04
yanyanhuto ensure the exception is expected13:04
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yanyanhufor example, there are many different cases badrequest exception will happen13:05
yanyanhuand we'd better differentiate them13:05
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QimingI'd like to propose postpone the message validation work13:05
elynnso need to check the body?13:05
yanyanhuelynn, yes, possible13:05
yanyanhuQiming, yes, it is no urgent13:06
Qimingwith the new REST/RPC parameter passing13:06
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Qimingmost (if not all) parameter validation is done by jsonschema13:06
Qimingthat will give us a consistent message for verify13:06
yanyanhuQiming, great13:07
yanyanhucurrently, we can only make chaos matching between expected msg string and exception body13:07
Qimingtake this as an example: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/386942/1/senlin/api/openstack/v1/clusters.py13:07
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QimingLine 171 and line 172 will be responsible for all schema validations13:08
yanyanhuI see13:08
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Qimingit will check whether required field is missing, whether the data type is okay, whether there are some patterns followed etc13:09
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lvdongbingHow about unexpected field?13:10
Qiminge.g. for cluster list request13:10
yanyanhuI think we can postpone the api test improvement workitem and wait for api/rpc rework is done13:10
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Qimingit will check whether limit is provided and is an integer and non-negative13:11
Qimingpreviously we were not checking it13:11
Qimingunexpected fields can be ruled out using 'additionalProperties: False' at the object level13:11
Qimingoslo.versionedobjects is still working on it13:11
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Qimingonce such an option is added, all requests will benefit from it13:12
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yanyanhuI see.13:12
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yanyanhuhi, Qiming, so this is part of Versioned Requests work item?13:13
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Qimingbut we are not that urgent on this I think13:14
Qimingwe were not checking unexpected fields yet13:14
Qimingfor cluster create request13:14
yanyanhuthat won't cause exception13:14
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Qimingonce we modeled it using versioned object, we can get the jsonschema here: http://paste.openstack.org/show/586190/13:15
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Qimingnova has been adding hand written schemas to their source tree for this13:15
yanyanhubetter way is generating it from definition of object storage?13:16
Qimingwe have just taken a further step in that direction13:16
yanyanhusorry, resource object13:16
Qimingyou cannot do that13:16
Qimingcluster create is different cluster update, for example13:16
yanyanhuyes, it is13:16
Qimingreading code there: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/senlin/tree/senlin/objects/requests/clusters.py13:17
yanyanhumaybe giving properties different tags?13:17
Qimingit is much more easier to maintain13:17
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yanyanhuyes, saw that implementation13:18
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Qimingthen .. how would you model cluster list?13:18
Qimingwe are not there yet13:18
yanyanhulike the way we are using in API reference :)13:18
yanyanhuI see13:18
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Qimingeven the whole versioned object infra is still evolving, we are riding the wave13:19
Qiminge.g. http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/senlin/tree/senlin/objects/fields.py#n5413:19
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Qimingand this: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/senlin/tree/senlin/objects/fields.py#n3513:19
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Qimingso ... the framework has been proved to be more effective, and we get VERSIONing ...13:20
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Qimingso I have revised the blueprint for this: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/senlin/+spec/objectify-service-requests13:21
yanyanhucool. I think this will be an important basement for our "versioned everything" discussion in design session13:21
Qimingif anyone is interested in this, please join me in the effort13:21
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yanyanhuas an reference implementation13:22
Qimingwith versioned object, I'm even considering deprecate the senlin.common.schema model13:22
yanyanhuQiming, yes, that is possible13:22
Qimingfor each API request, do this:13:22
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Qiming1. prepare a request class, e.g. https://review.openstack.org/38789313:22
yanyanhuwe can use this way to validate spec of profile/policy as well13:22
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Qiming2. revise the engine service to handle objectified request, e.g. https://review.openstack.org/38789413:23
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Qiming3. revise the API layer to generate such a request object, e.g. https://review.openstack.org/38791213:23
Qimingthat's all13:23
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Qimingrebase profile/policy schema on ovo would be a next step13:24
yanyanhuso the object will be a param of rpc call13:24
Qimingjust one single call13:24
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yanyanhuand it will be serialized and deserialized during transmission via rpc13:24
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Qimingonly this one: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/senlin/tree/senlin/rpc/client.py#n5413:24
yanyanhuhaha, call2 :)13:24
Qimingthe 'call2' method will be left there, all other methods will be deleted13:25
yanyanhuI see13:25
Qimingyes, don't want to break any existing users who are following the master branch13:25
yanyanhumaybe we can replace the current 'call' with it after everything is ready13:25
yanyanhuI see13:25
Qimingwe will do that13:26
Qimingafter all transitions are done, we remove the '2' part, because13:26
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Qiming2 is not a good word in Chinese13:26
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Qimingsorry for occupying too much time13:27
yanyanhugreat work. hope everyone can spend some time to see it.13:27
Qimingbut I believe this is a huge change so everyone else want to understand the 'why' and 'how'13:27
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yanyanhuno problem at all, it will be the key for senlin to providing backward compatibility and consistency in future13:28
Qimingwe will be able to provide smooth upgrading ...13:28
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lvdongbingGreat work13:28
Qimingwe rely on versioned object to automatically translate requests between different api versions13:28
Qimingif you have 3 engines, they can even run at different versions, hopefully13:29
yanyanhuyes. that will be very helpful for service upgrading13:29
Qimingshall we move on?13:30
Qiming30 mins already13:30
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yanyanhuok, we can have more discussion later, lets move on to next item13:30
yanyanhuQiming, lixinhui_, your turn13:31
* Qiming obviously not working on this thread, :(13:31
yanyanhuI guess xinhui as well :P13:31
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yanyanhufor she is preparing the summit topic13:31
lixinhui_a demo run through13:32
yanyanhuso that demo will be part of our HA presentation in summit?13:32
haiwei_lixinhui_, what kind of demo are you preparing?13:32
lixinhui_for sending notice from Octavia13:32
elynnThere's a demo for that topic?13:32
haiwei_can you explain the demo briefly?13:32
lixinhui_there is misunderstanding here :)13:33
lixinhui_and I are preparing chart for summit13:33
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elynnOkay :)13:33
lixinhui_where we will show out ideas, now, and future:)13:33
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lixinhui_the demo I mentioned is about getting notice from octavia13:34
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lixinhui_maybe this time we can catch stephan13:34
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lixinhui_the new ptl to discuss if we can submit some BP for this13:34
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yanyanhuso notification can now be sent out while lb members' status change?13:34
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lixinhui_since this should be useful for senlin and other purpose since it  suppose to replace lbaas13:35
lixinhui_Yes, yanyanhu13:35
yanyanhureceiving notification from lb service is much better than polling the status of lb member for senlin13:35
QimingI like event listeners over pollers13:36
lixinhui_totally agree, yanyanhu and Qiming13:36
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lixinhui_the link I just sent is the decision to kill lbaas in next step13:36
Qiminggood to know someone is dead13:36
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Qimingand ... someone is born13:36
yanyanhuok, waiting for good news from you guys13:37
yanyanhuok, next one13:37
yanyanhuno progress I guess?13:37
Qiming#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Senlin13:38
QimingSenlin frontpage13:38
Qimingat least someone treat it as frontpage13:38
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QimingI have updated the page with some pointers to the talks we delievered13:38
yanyanhuall those presentations we have made have been added :)13:38
Qimingit took me 2 hours this afternoon13:39
yanyanhuand also the link to development and user doc13:39
Qimingconvert to pdf, upload to slideshare, annotate them, then writing a short summary on the wiki13:39
yanyanhuyou deserve a meal as compensation :)13:40
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haiwei_quite  quick IMO13:40
QimingI will spend some time unfold that Documentation section, because it is still not obvious what we can do with senlin13:40
Qimingoh, forgot to mention13:40
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QimingI have been talking to the product-wg guys13:41
Qimingit is on the product-wg@lists.openstack.org13:41
QimingI was asking why senlin wasn't shown on the openstack software page13:41
Qimingthe answer is that they require a >10% deployment, or a PTL request13:42
yanyanhusaw that mail :)13:42
Qimingand the team was raising question about senlin, what is it ...13:42
Qimingthe wiki wasn't telling them that13:42
Qimingagain, we need to improve the wiki13:42
yanyanhuyes. maybe some use cases later13:43
Qimingmaybe adding a use case section will help13:43
yanyanhue.g. the one we cooperate with cmcc13:43
Qimingmoving terminology to a separate page ... etc13:43
yanyanhugreat, in this summit, the presentation and video will be availble13:43
Qimingwill work on that13:43
yanyanhugreat, thanks for working on it13:44
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yanyanhuok, lets move on?13:44
Qimingline 20 on the etherpad is done, removing that13:44
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yanyanhuversioned request. I think we have already covered it?13:44
yanyanhuok, next one, container profile13:45
yanyanhuhi, haiwei_, any updating about it?13:45
haiwei_I have been watching sun these days, they have added image support13:45
Qimingbeijing has been cloudy, no sun here ...13:45
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yanyanhuok, madhuri's work13:46
haiwei_I am thinking whether we can refer to it13:46
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haiwei_sorry, my pc converted it automatically13:46
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yanyanhuyes, maybe we can have some discussion with zun team in summit13:46
haiwei_z un is not a word13:46
QimingI hoped so13:47
yanyanhujust there is conflict on design session time slot...13:47
Qimingbut the timeslots all overlapped13:47
yanyanhuyes... all on friday morning13:47
Qimingthere is no possibility to do cross-team talk now13:47
haiwei_managing image seems out of senlin's scope13:47
yanyanhuhaiwei_, yes, it is13:47
Qimingyes, so you can keep watching sun, haiwei_, :)13:47
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haiwei_yes, it's shining13:48
Qimingmove on?13:48
yanyanhuok, lets move on13:48
Qimingno update on receiver or event notification I think13:48
yanyanhumessage receiver13:48
yanyanhujust added doc13:48
Qimingoh, some docs merged, yes13:48
yanyanhuhope that will be helpful for user and other developer to understant it13:49
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yanyanhuany issues or questions, plz just ping me13:49
yanyanhuor leave comments in patch :)13:49
QimingThen ruijie has started some work on batching policy, please folks have your eyes on them13:49
yanyanhubatch policy13:49
yanyanhuthanks a lot for working on this, Ruijie_ :)13:49
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Ruijie_my pleasure, yanyan :)13:49
yanyanhuif you need any help, plz find us in irc channel13:50
Ruijie_I was working on the cluster_replace_action last week.13:50
Qimingdidn't we forget to welcome lvdongbing and XueFengLiu on board?13:50
Ruijie_Will keep working on batch policy later13:50
yanyanhuoh, right!13:50
yanyanhuRuijie_, great13:50
* Qiming applauds hard ...13:50
yanyanhuwill help to review13:50
yanyanhuwelcome our new core reviewer, lvdongbing and XueFengLiu13:50
* Qiming keeps applauding ...13:50
lvdongbingthanks guys :)13:51
yanyanhulooking forward to more coodination with you guys :)13:51
lvdongbingmy pleasure13:51
XueFengLiuhi all13:51
yanyanhuand hope more people will join the core reviewer team soon :)13:51
* Qiming keeps applauding ...13:51
yanyanhuQiming, ...13:51
yanyanhudon't just applaud13:51
yanyanhumaybe some simple self introduction, lvdongbing XueFengLiu ?13:52
yanyanhulvdongbing, maybe you first?13:52
lvdongbingI come from KylinCloud13:52
lvdongbingHave been working with Openstack for 3 years13:53
yanyanhulvdongbing is a veteran of openstack I think :)13:53
yanyanhuhi, XueFengLiu13:54
yanyanhuXueFengLiu is from ZTE13:54
XueFengLiuI  work in ZTE13:54
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yanyanhuok, welcome again, you guys13:55
lvdongbingNice to meet you guys in openstack world!13:55
yanyanhume too :)13:55
yanyanhuok, last 5 mins13:55
XueFengLiumee too13:55
yanyanhu#topic summit presentation13:55
*** openstack changes topic to "summit presentation (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:55
yanyanhulixinhui_, and Ethan are preparing the HA one13:56
lixinhui_Yes, yanyanhu13:56
yanyanhuand Qiming and me and cmcc colleague are preparing the large cluster topic13:56
elynnyes, might need your review and skilled experience !13:56
lixinhui_Will schedule meeting with you and Qiming13:56
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lixinhui_Yes, Ethan13:57
yanyanhuno problem, please send out the slides and we can help to review13:57
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yanyanhuok, next one13:57
yanyanhuirc meeting reschedule13:57
yanyanhuI think we have no enough time to discuss this13:57
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yanyanhumaybe next time13:57
yanyanhuBTW, I will send mail to cancel next irc meeting13:58
yanyanhufor most of you guys will be in Barcelona next week :)13:58
Qimingjust one question, maybe we can discuss it on senlin channel13:58
yanyanhuQiming, sure13:58
yanyanhuif you guys have time, we can make a quick discussion in senlin channel after meeting13:58
Qimingdo you prefer having this meeing at night (this same time), or moving it to day time in China timezone13:58
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Qiminglet's continue the discussion on senlin for a few minutes13:59
yanyanhuok, no further items in agenda13:59
Qimingand release this channel?13:59
yanyanhuQiming, sure13:59
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yanyanhuthanks you guys for joining :)13:59
yanyanhulets move back to senlin channel13:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"13:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct 18 13:59:56 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)13:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-10-18-13.00.html13:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-10-18-13.00.txt14:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-10-18-13.00.log.html14:00
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sripriya#startmeeting tacker16:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Oct 18 16:00:29 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is sripriya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tacker'16:00
sripriyahello tackers16:00
sripriya#topic Roll Call16:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:00
tung_doan_hi all16:00
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tbhHi all16:01
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sripriyajanki: tung_doan_ vishwanathj n-harada mike_m neel tbh hello!16:01
sripriya#chair tbh16:02
openstackCurrent chairs: sripriya tbh16:02
sripriya#topic Announcements16:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:02
sripriyathe design summit etherpad has been updated with agenda items under each topic, along with chairs for each of these sessions.16:02
sripriya#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tacker-ocata-summit16:02
sripriyathe openstack summit schedule page also reflects the updated session descriptions.16:02
sripriya#link https://www.openstack.org/summit/barcelona-2016/summit-schedule/global-search?t=Tacker%3A16:02
sripriyaand here is the mailing list link for the same16:03
sripriya#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-October/105914.html16:03
sripriyateam, please feel free to add your inputs/thoughts in the etherpad link for the topics16:03
sripriyadiga: hello16:04
sripriya#topic Agenda16:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Agenda (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:04
sripriya#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Tacker#Meeting_Oct_18th.2C_201616:04
sripriyawe have 2 agenda items for this meeting. the rest of meeting time is open for any questions/thoughts around the design summit. if there is no burning topic for discussions, we can wrap up early as i understand many of us are preparing for the summit.16:04
sripriyabefore we get to the topics, wanted to quickly poll the team about the next 2 meetings16:05
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vishwanathjam assuming we are skipping next week meeting since we will be at summit16:05
sripriyathe next weekly meeting will be cancelled in lieu of the summit (many of us will be at the summit)16:05
sripriyaalso i plan to cancel meeting for the week following the summit since folks will be traveling back,16:05
sripriyateam please vote your +1/-1s16:05
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sripriyathanks for the response team16:06
sripriya#info there will be no meetings for the following 2 weeks i.e., Oct 25 2016 and Nov 1st 2016. we will be meeting next on Nov 8th 2016 after the summit.16:07
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sripriyalet us move on to Ocata grooming topics16:07
sripriya#topic Ocata grooming16:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Ocata grooming (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:07
sripriya#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tacker-ocata-grooming16:08
sripriyawe have a good number of blueprints lined up for ocata cycle:16:08
sripriya#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/tacker/ocata16:08
sripriyathese blueprints may get reshuffled after the summit based on the deliverables and priorities of the features required for the Ocata release.16:09
sripriyaalso, there are some new blueprints registered such as the senlin integration which in fact has a spec in progress16:10
sripriya#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/352943/16:10
sripriyai would request you all to please review the spec and provide your feedback/suggestions.16:10
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sripriyaplease note, we have included this as a topic as well in one of our work sessions led by xu-haiwei. it will be good to have some understanding of this feature before the summit.16:11
sripriyateam, any questions or thoughts about the blueprints?16:11
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sripriyabeyond blueprints, we have a bucket list of RFEs/bugs lined up for the Ocata cycle including:16:12
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sripriya1. removing hard coded VDU values for alarm monitor policies, there is a patch in progress16:12
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sripriyaplease review this important patch and leave your +1s if possible.16:13
tung_doan_sripriya: thanks16:13
sripriya2. deprecation series -- here is the laundry list of features scheduled for removals16:13
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sripriyatung_doan_: sure, np16:13
sripriyaa. infra driver and mgmt driver attribute removal from vnfd api and client16:14
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sripriyai would request you to please add your name in the grooming etherpad for these simpler deprecation removals and helping them get wrapped up early16:15
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sripriyab. legacy template removal and associated home grown translator logic16:15
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sripriyawe have the home grown parser logic for a while now in the openstack driver to support the old templates16:16
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jankisripriya, I am working on a. https://bugs.launchpad.net/tacker/+bug/163093616:16
openstackLaunchpad bug 1630936 in tacker "Remove infra and mgmt driver passing from client" [Medium,Triaged] - Assigned to Janki Chhatbar (jankihchhatbar)16:16
sripriyathe time has to come to finally remove the logic out of tacker code :-)16:16
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sripriyavishwanathj and team: thanks for your efforts on that16:16
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sripriyajanki: great!16:17
vishwanathjyou are welcome16:17
sripriyac. heat and nova infra drivers removal16:17
sripriyai believe gongysh aready has patches for some of the above16:18
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sripriyad. yaml template as strings deprecation warnings removal16:18
sripriyatoday,we handle and store vnfd, param and config yaml templates as raw strings in the tacker db16:18
sripriyawe need to handle these yaml template as json objects in db,  the db columns need to be modified to handle JSON types.16:19
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sripriyahere is the bug link:16:19
sripriya#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/tacker/+bug/163437616:19
openstackLaunchpad bug 1634376 in tacker "remove deprecated yaml string inputs and implement json support for VNFD templates in database" [Undecided,New] - Assigned to Manikantha Srinivas Tadi (manikantha-tadi)16:19
sripriyaah,  there is already an owner for the bug, thanks manikantha-tadi!16:20
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manikantaI just picked some time back16:20
sripriyateaam, if you are looking for some low hanging fruits to start your contributions in tacker, this is a good place to start. please reach out to me or any dev in the #tacker channel.16:21
sripriyaany further thoughts on the deprecation removals?16:22
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sripriyaplease add on to the etherpad list or create a bug if you think any deprecation removals have been missed out16:23
sripriyamoving on to next topic design summit topics16:24
sripriya#topic Ocata design summit topics16:24
*** openstack changes topic to "Ocata design summit topics (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:24
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sripriyamike_m: did you want to provide any initial thoughts/agenda items on the topic 'VMware ESXi and Public Cloud Supprt in Tacker' ?16:25
mike_msripriya: yes I can provide some, would you like me to update the etherpad with that?16:26
sripriyamike_m: sure, and if you can give an outline to the team here, that will be great too16:26
mike_msure.  since the goal is for true multi-vim support, I would like tacker be able to drive the vmware vcloud API (REST)16:27
mike_mthis is different than vmware as ESX (under openstack)16:27
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mike_mvcloud API uses OVA as its basis, so there may be some complication with that.16:28
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mike_mis that a good starting point for the team here, or would you like more details?16:29
sripriyamike_m: okay, so the vcloud API is under openstack?16:29
mike_msripriya: the "vcloud API" is a vmware API provided by vcenter16:30
sripriyamike_m: these are good starting points, also i think we should revisit the register VIM apis under Tacker itself16:30
sripriyamike_m: okay16:30
mike_msripriya: agreed, as we chatted recently, I have some concerns around the 'admin' requirement.16:31
sripriyamike_m: there are some keystone related attributes that creep up to the API itself16:31
mike_msripriya: yes indeed16:31
sripriyamike_m: cool, what are few challenges with the public cloud support?16:32
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mike_msripriya: to be honest I haven't thought too much on public cloud, mostly vmware vcloud16:32
sripriyamike_m: ack16:32
sripriyamike_m: i'm sure the wider openstack community will have thoughts/suggestions on the public cloud integration when we take this up in the fishbowl session16:33
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mike_msripriya: agreed16:34
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sripriyamike_m: one thing i can think from tacker side, is consistent translation of TOSCA templates and handling them on  all these VIMs16:35
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mike_msripriya: that would be a great goal16:35
sripriyamike_m: thanks for providing initial thoughts around the topic, please continue to update the etherpad.16:36
sripriyamike_m: yes16:36
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sripriyathe other topic is containerized VNFs16:36
sripriyatbh: janki: do you have any initial agenda items for the topic you would like to share with team?16:37
jankisripriya, I am more towards using zun/kuryr rather than magnum16:37
jankidirectly integrating these with tacker rather than going through heat16:38
vishwanathjmagnum is more for container orchestration engine, right?16:38
jankivishwanathj, yes16:38
tbhsripriya, I am also looking into the area of SFC16:38
sripriyajanki: help me understand, how different is zun from magnum?16:38
tbhsripriya, and Enhanced placement point of view, I think it won't be an issue as it directly uses host cpu16:39
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sripriyatbh: that is cool, though we are still in very early stages of SFC16:40
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vishwanathjtbh, what component helps with EPA?16:40
sripriyatbh: what about EPA? can you throw some more light?16:40
tbhsripriya, vishwanathj generally zun uses container engine of the host whereas magnum uses nova instance for container hosting16:40
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jankisripriya, Zun and Magnum are two independent projects. Zun aims to provide APIs to manage containers, while Magnum provides APIs to provision and manage Container Orchestration Engine (COEs), such as Kubernetes.16:41
sripriyajanki: tbh: this is a good summary.16:41
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jankisripriya, more at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Zun under FAQs16:41
tbhfor now I considered only cpu pinning vishwanathj16:42
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digaMagnum is COE16:42
vishwanathjtbh thanks for the info16:42
sripriyajanki: tbh: we also need to think about mapping templates to containers16:42
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tbhand other features still am searching for that16:42
sripriyajanki: tbh: does this happen at the VDU level or VNF16:42
tbhsripriya, vishwanathj ^^16:42
sripriyatbh: ack16:42
jankisripriya, yes. we can have --type  option for the templates16:43
tbhsripriya, yes we need to modify the templates for now and it happens at VDU level16:43
jankisripriya, we would also need a template converter IMO16:43
vishwanathjit also depends on whether the underlying image is a VM or container, right?16:43
tbhsripriya, AFAIK we can't enable multiple virt drivers  in one compute, correct me if I am wrong16:44
sripriyatbh: janki; also we will need new node types defined for containers16:44
sripriyatbh; yes16:44
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vishwanathjdo we today have a node type for VMs?16:44
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tbhvishwanathj, we by default assume VMs as nodes as of now16:45
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jankisripriya, node type won't change. It will still be a VDU I think16:45
sripriyavishwanathj: we have VDU node type which is a VM16:45
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vishwanathjjanki that's what I was thinking, the image of a VDU could be of container or VM...anyway needs further thought16:46
sripriyatbh: janki okay, i think we have a good number of agenda items to explore further and get feedback from the wider community16:46
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sripriyatbh: janki: thanks for providing some initial starters, please add these points to the etherpad link16:47
jankisripriya, vishwanathj the only difference should be about the template and placing the vdu. in this case template could be a dockerfile and placed on container supproted host/server16:47
jankitbh ^^16:47
digaI think we should do more study on container integration16:47
digaZun is still in early stage16:47
tbhjanki, I think  Dockerfile may not be the required format16:48
sripriyateam, we also have nsd mistral integration, em interface topics pencilled in for one of the work sessions16:48
tbhdiga, yes accepted, and kuryr is supporting magnum I believe not zun16:48
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sripriyansd mistral integration - we have challenges in translating tosca template to mistral workflows16:49
sripriyaem-interface - i know mike_m is driving that, there are few points added to that topic in etherpad on some challenges that need to be addressed16:50
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digatbh: it will be good to go with Magnum as it has networking and storage support16:50
mike_msripriya: will be updating that as well.16:50
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sripriyalet us continue to drive these interesting discussions on to the summit and get them kick started for ocata :16:51
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sripriyamike_m: thanks16:51
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vishwanathjyup, very interesting topics, looking forward to those discussions at the summit16:52
tbhdiga, magnum has it's own drawbacks from tacker point of view :)16:52
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sripriyatackers, are there any other topics you wanted to discuss related to summit or any general questions?16:52
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digaAll the best for you all! Enjoy @ Summit16:52
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sripriyaalright, i think it is a wrap for today!16:53
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digasripriya: just one request,16:54
sripriyadiga: shoot16:54
digasripriya: try to update the etherpad16:54
digaWill follow that16:54
sripriyadiga we will try to be as diligent as possible in updating the etherpad :-)16:54
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jankisee you guys at the summit, bye16:55
sripriyathanks team, great discussions lined up for the summit!16:55
sripriyasee you all at the summit. viajes seguros!16:55
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sripriya#endmeeting tacker16:55
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"16:55
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct 18 16:55:40 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:55
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-10-18-16.00.html16:55
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-10-18-16.00.txt16:55
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-10-18-16.00.log.html16:55
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mmedvede#startmeeting third-party17:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Oct 18 17:01:28 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mmedvede. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:01
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'17:01
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ja3greetings misha17:01
mmedvedehey ja317:01
mmedvedelooks like there was no meeting two weeks ago17:02
mmedvedeand thanks asselin_ for hosting the other one while I was out17:02
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ja3well -2 weeks there was sort of a mtg.  asselin was late, by which time I was on another call.  someone had a question around 1320 or 1330 ET, but I'm not sure if asselin ever pushed the bot commands to start/stop the meeting.17:03
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mmedvedemust be, I looked through logs and did not see the last one17:04
ja3we are CI, we move like ghosts17:05
mmedvedeok, normal agenda today. No announcements17:05
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mmedvedethe only one that everyone is probably aware of is that pycparser 2.15 broke the gate17:06
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mmedvedeanyone else is here for the meeting?17:07
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clarkbmmedvede: and 2.16 has fixed it again17:08
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mmedvedehi pots17:08
potshi all17:08
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mmedvedeclarkb: right, should have mentioned it. There was an announcement on #openstack-infra17:09
mmedvede#topic Open Discussion17:10
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ja3 Ji Chen is going to talk to nova about moving z/VM's CI to non-voting but visible.17:10
ja3...no schedule for that, but should happen by end of Summit week.17:11
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mmedvedeja3: good to hear. Any interesting challenges still in your CI?17:12
mmedvedepots: we have a rather thin agenda lately. If you have any questions or topic to discuss, speak up17:12
ja3...grrr...auto-complete... challenges not really.  the usual problem classes.  stupid dev tricks.17:13
potsjust tuning in for pearls like the pycparser tip.  thanks.17:13
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mmedvedeok then, lets keep it short. I'll keep the meeting open for another 5 minutes or so17:17
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mmedvedethanks for attending17:23
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:23
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct 18 17:23:40 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:23
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-10-18-17.01.html17:23
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-10-18-17.01.txt17:23
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-10-18-17.01.log.html17:23
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stevemarping for meeting ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, crinkle, claudiub, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, edmondsw, gagehugo, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, jaugustine, joesavak, jorge_munoz, knikolla, lbragstad, MaxPC, morgan, nishaYadav, nkinder, notmorgan, raildo, ravelar, rodrigods, rderose, roxanaghe, samleon, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, xek18:00
stevemar#startmeeting keystone18:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Oct 18 18:00:09 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:00
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stevemarhey bknudson crinkle gagehugo dolphm rderose lbragstad__18:00
stevemarand knikolla :)18:00
stevemaragenda is here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting18:01
stevemar#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting18:01
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stevemarwait for any other late comers...18:01
stevemarsmall crowd this week18:01
dolphmstevemar: freenode seems to be having problems, so i'm not sure we should expect a normal attendance18:02
stevemardolphm: thanks for the heads up18:02
stevemar#topic project update18:02
*** openstack changes topic to "project update (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:02
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dolphmand those that are here might drop randomly18:02
stevemarsummit design sessions are on the wiki: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Design_Summit/Ocata/Etherpads#Keystone18:02
stevemar#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Design_Summit/Ocata/Etherpads#Keystone18:02
stevemaralso available to view online: https://www.openstack.org/summit/barcelona-2016/summit-schedule/global-search?t=Keystone%3A18:02
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stevemar#link https://www.openstack.org/summit/barcelona-2016/summit-schedule/global-search?t=Keystone%3A18:02
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stevemarso last time i looked at the session, i swear the time changed (to an hour earlier)18:03
stevemarso please look at the live schedule18:03
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stevemarlooking forward to seeing folks next week!18:03
bretonwhy is there %3A in the end?18:03
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dolphmbreton: for security?18:04
stevemarbreton: cause that's what came up in the address bar when i searched for it? :P18:04
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bretonbecause of ":"18:05
stevemarbreton: oh, the %3A will make sure it searches for "Keystone:" and not just "Keystone" (which would bring up a lot of results)18:05
dolphmif you take it off, you potentially get mentions of keystone in other tracks18:06
stevemarthe design sessions all have "keystone:"18:06
dolphmmore of a problem for Nova vs Nova:18:06
stevemarany summit questions?18:06
dolphmwhat's for tapas18:06
stevemardesign session or otherwise18:06
raildodolphm, ++18:06
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stevemardolphm: whatever you decide on, you're the chef of the group18:07
dstanekhow will i ever get along without you guys?18:07
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dolphmstevemar: i should have planned ahead18:07
stevemardstanek: lbragstad__ will keep you company18:07
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* lbragstad__ highfives dstanek18:07
stevemarrough timeline for ocata: https://releases.openstack.org/ocata/schedule.html18:08
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stevemar#link https://releases.openstack.org/ocata/schedule.html18:08
stevemarwe'll pick dates for the various proposal freezes and such next week18:08
* dstanek is satisfied with that answer18:08
stevemarbut 17 November is the ocata-1 milestone window18:08
stevemarso 3 weeks or so til ocata-118:08
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stevemarnows the time to fix bugs and do big things (looking at you fernet as default)18:09
stevemarso we have the rest of the cycle to handle the fall out18:09
lbragstad__everything is ready for review18:09
lbragstad__as far as making fernet the default18:09
stevemarlbragstad__: ++18:09
stevemarlbragstad__: was just an example, but thanks for the heads up18:10
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stevemarlastly -- PTG info: http://www.openstack.org/ptg18:10
stevemar#link http://www.openstack.org/ptg18:10
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stevemarany questions about the pTG? i can try to answer them :\18:10
stevemar20-24 February 2017 in Atlanta, Georgia18:10
stevemarit replaces the midcycle for us18:10
rderosemid-cycle == ptg?18:11
stevemarrderose: yeah, except its all devs18:11
knikollaexcept it's start-cycle18:11
bretonAtlanta is far from Russia18:11
stevemarso no more nova-specific and keystone-specific midcycles18:11
* breton hopes there will be ptgs in europe18:11
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stevemarbreton: don't quote me, but i think there will be in the future18:12
bknudsonthat's coming up quick18:12
dstanekstevemar: oh, i thought those were replaceing all devs at summits18:12
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stevemardstanek: i'm not sure, we'll all learn a lot after the first one18:12
dolphmdstanek: we'll still have the "forum" which will have the traditional dev / ops / user intermix18:12
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dolphmi'm not super clear on how the forum will differ from previous summits though18:13
stevemari believe some of the active ops will also be at the PTGs18:13
dstanekso still dev summit + new fangled thing? or we still don't know?18:14
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dolphmPTG + Forum18:14
dolphmPTG = centralized midcycle18:14
dolphmForum ~= Summit18:14
dolphmthat's all i got18:14
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stevemarwhether the summit becomes less dev focused, and more marketing, i don't know yet18:15
stevemari don't believe that's the case though18:15
knikollastill the downside is that PTG is at the start of the cycle.18:15
raildoonly ptg will be enough for decide anything to the whole cycle?18:15
knikollathe way i see it, PTG == design summits.18:16
dolphmstevemar: that is the case, sort of18:16
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dolphmwith the shift in schedule, the forum will be further from a release18:16
dolphmso that operators and users show up with feedback from the latest release18:16
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dolphmrather than "yeah, but we haven't had time to test it yet"18:17
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stevemari'm being cautiously optimistic with the whole switch, it'll be harder for some folks to get funding for both, and the operators and kinda left out in the cold, but i trust the foundation knows what they are doing18:17
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dolphmPTL and TC election cycles are also being adjusted to occur at different times (i forget the details)18:17
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stevemardolphm: right, PTL elections are coming up sooner this time around18:18
dolphmThierry has an [all] post on the mailing list about it IIRC18:18
stevemarthe transition stage is going to be weird18:18
dolphmstevemar: ++18:18
stevemarbut the foundation will learn a lot and act quickly18:18
stevemarso make sure you all submit travel requests for the PTG!18:18
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dolphmthis also means we can expect to have a summer PTG somewhere18:19
stevemaryes, unannounced but yes18:19
dstaneki ready several of the posts about this, but i really just want the bullet points....most of the things i read spent too much time explaining the problem and justifying the solution18:19
stevemardstanek: poke ttx :P18:20
dolphmso, Barcelona Summit (now) -> Atlanta PTG (Feb) -> Boston Forum (April) -> Unannounced PTG (summer) -> Sydney Forum (next oct/nov)18:20
stevemarthose were well timed messages18:20
samueldmqdolphm: nice18:21
stevemari'm not sure if future "forums" will have design sessions18:21
dolphmalways with the infrographics18:21
stevemaron to the first real topic18:22
stevemar#topic bug 163292418:22
*** openstack changes topic to "bug 1632924 (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:22
openstackbug 1632924 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "Lingering sql backend role assignments after deletion of ldap user." [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/163292418:22
stevemarlbragstad__: ^18:22
samueldmqSo there will always be some time after the cycle18:22
samueldmqBefore the next fórum presenting it18:22
samueldmqOops sorry18:22
lbragstad__alright i was doing some bug triage and stumbled across https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/163292418:22
lbragstad__I wasn't really sure how we should approach it18:22
bknudsonthis is deleting ldap user through keystone?18:22
lbragstad__so i left a comment promising to bring it up during the meeting18:23
lbragstad__bknudson: ues18:23
bknudsondid we get rid of that code?18:23
knikolladon't we not support that anymore?18:23
lbragstad__bknudson: we are suppose to in Ocata18:23
stevemarbknudson: not yet, it's WIP to be removed for this cycle18:23
knikollai'm getting rid of it18:23
lbragstad__but we haven't yet18:23
bknudsonif something only exists in an old release we can fix the old release.18:23
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lbragstad__bknudson: we can do that with the backport policy?18:24
stevemarlbragstad__: i say mark it as WONTFIX, we will not fix it in ocata, and it was deprecated in M/N, and on anything older than that we can't backport since it's not a security fix18:24
dolphmbknudson: ++18:24
dolphmlbragstad__: yes18:24
lbragstad__got it18:24
dolphmlbragstad__: won't fix on master, but target the bug to previous series18:24
stevemarbknudson: depends if this is even worth fixing for deprecated behaviour18:24
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lbragstad__that's the tricky part18:24
lbragstad__it's a deprecated thing18:24
lbragstad__do we support fixing deprecated things?18:25
dolphmwe just don't add features18:25
bknudsonIf someone shows up with a fix I don't think we should reject it.18:25
dolphmi.e. adding a new command to v2 keystoneclient cli18:25
stevemarit's low impact, the worst thing that happens is lingering role assginments18:25
stevemari wouldn't mark this higher than a medium18:25
lbragstad__the lingering role assignment are breaking some openstackclient calls they are making though18:26
stevemarreally? bah18:26
dolphmstill sounds like a medium :)18:26
bknudsonis it breaking deleting the role assignment?18:27
samueldmqAlso it shouldn't be a hard fix18:27
knikollais there a precedent for commiting fixes directly to stable branches without backport?18:27
samueldmqAlso it could have a migration that cleans up the existing table by comparing with the usr list18:27
stevemarohh actually this isn't related to write support for LDAP18:27
stevemari think the user was actually removed from the LDAP (by an admin)18:28
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dolphmknikolla: in this sort of scenario, yes18:28
stevemarlike the employee was terminated or something18:28
dolphmknikolla: the patch will just be scrutinized more harshly for risk18:28
samueldmqstevemar: lbragstad Said it was deleted by keystone18:28
stevemarsamueldmq: the bug report says different18:28
samueldmqWhen someone asked a frw lines abobe18:28
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lbragstad__" The issue being encountered is when a ldap user is removed, the id for that user(actor_id) remains in the keystone.assignment table."18:29
stevemarthe resource or in this case the user id no longer being found as it was deleted from ldap18:29
lbragstad__^ from the bug report18:29
stevemarit doesn't say how it was removed18:29
knikollathis case does affect master though18:29
knikollaif it's ldap deletion18:29
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samueldmqSo perhaps we don't care18:29
samueldmqWont fix?18:29
stevemarwe should still clean it up then18:30
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lbragstad__ok - here is what i'll do18:30
lbragstad__i'll update it to target the older releases18:30
lbragstad__and ask for more information about how the use was removed18:30
lbragstad__before marking it as Won't Fix18:30
stevemarlbragstad__: i just did :)18:30
samueldmqDo we still support ldap for roles in that same release?18:30
samueldmqThere can be the same issue18:30
stevemarsamueldmq: don't believe so...18:31
lbragstad__stevemar: ah thanks (I'm having a hell of a time with my Mac right now due to the garbage that is the Sierra update)18:31
lbragstad__stevemar: I will keep tabs on it and follow up with Alberto18:31
stevemarlbragstad__: we good on this bug report?18:31
lbragstad__yeah - i got what i needed18:31
stevemardstanek: you're up18:32
stevemar#topic spec saml-logout-token-revocation18:32
*** openstack changes topic to "spec saml-logout-token-revocation (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:32
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dstanektopol_: created this a while ago and it looks like it is interesting to enterprise use18:32
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dstanekhas anyone read the spec and have strong feeling one way or another?18:33
dstanekthe general idea is to support the enterprise concept of a global logout18:33
stevemarsounds liek thats the case18:33
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dstanekthere are some technical challenges that i haven't figured out yet and we'd likely need to start storing more information about how tokens are created18:34
stevemarhavent looked at the etherpad yet :(18:34
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dstaneki did a small brain dump here:18:35
dstaneklink: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-single-logout18:35
stevemar#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-single-logout18:35
stevemarwe had a few bugs reported with similar feedback18:35
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stevemarfederaed user would log out of horizon, but they'll stay logged into their other application18:36
dstanekshibboleth itself does this quite easily. it's when you have to invalidate our tokens that you run into problems.18:36
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dstanekstevemar: that's actually pretty easy. it the IdP initiated logout that's hard18:36
stevemarmuch harder18:36
dstaneksomeone logs out somewhere else and keystone/horizon gets the logout message18:36
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stevemaryeah, sounds necessary, not sure how to go aboout doing it18:37
dstanekso challenge right now is that if i get a logout message directly to keystone which tokens to i invalidate?18:37
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dstaneki was just hoping to see if anyone have a need for this or maybe has reason to say not to do it18:38
dstanekdolphm: will also be following up at the summit18:38
stevemaryou'd need info abt the idp and user in the message18:38
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knikollawe can't just invalidate all user tokens right?18:39
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knikollathat specific user*18:39
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stevemardstanek: if you're gauging work items, i think we'll get more mileage out of the pysaml handler instead of mod_shib; rather than this one18:40
stevemarbut i could be wrong18:40
bknudsonit's easy to invalidate all user tokens. we already do it when password changes18:40
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dstanekknikolla: that's certainly a possiblity. we'll have to start recording saml2 session-id to user-id mapping somewhere at a minimum18:40
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stevemarinvalidating all user tokens would handle on scenario18:42
stevemarnot the one where the user logs out from the IDP directly though18:42
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dstanekso this means, for example, when horizon creates a token on behalf of a user that we would create a new database record (only one per user required)18:43
dstaneki'm trying to find a clever way to utilize shibboleth's builtin stuff, but i've come up empty so far18:44
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stevemari'll try to dig into it, but no promises :\18:45
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dolphmdstanek: you can't have more than one session ID per user at a time?18:45
knikolladoes the idp call an endpoint when initiating logout? i'm not familiar with how it works.18:45
knikollaas in, is there any idp-sp communication during idp logout18:45
dstanekdolphm: not to my knowledge18:46
stevemarknikolla: i believe so, you setup a specific SSOLogOut url18:46
dstanekbasically the SP advertises a SLO url in its metadata18:46
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dstanekthe idp will the send an XMl message like '<LogOut><SessionId>dkdkjkgjgkkgjdf</SessionId></LogOut>' to it18:46
dstaneknormally that goes right to shibboleth18:47
knikollaso we have session_id -> user_id mapping, and we revoke tokens for that user18:47
dstaneki'm looking for a way to have shibboleth actually call our code18:47
dstanekknikolla: right18:47
bknudsondstanek: keystone has a rest api you can call ;)18:48
dstanekbknudson: that's the problem. i can't figure out how to call it yet.18:48
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dstaneki'd actually just like mod_shib to kill off it's session data for forward the request to horizon's logout.18:49
dstanekmy almost attempt was to have a horizon logout url that redirected to the shibboleth url. almost got that working before i called it a day on Friday18:50
dstanekthat's the way i will continue to pursue it for right now, but i wanted to raise some awareness and get some feedback18:50
stevemardstanek: keep us posted18:51
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stevemaropen discussion?18:51
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dstanekthe problem is i don't know if IdPs support redirects :-)18:51
dstanekstevemar: sure18:51
stevemardstanek: thanks, i wanted to poke about something with PCI18:51
stevemar#topic open discussion18:51
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:51
stevemarrderose: gagehugo tossed up https://review.openstack.org/#/c/383832/ to check for users with expired passwords18:52
dstanekhow are the Jays doing?18:52
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stevemardstanek: i will politely ignore that18:52
rderosestevemar: have it on my to do list :)18:52
stevemarmy question was whether we should automatically set a user to 'disabled' if the password expires18:53
stevemarbut i guess we can't easily do that18:53
stevemargagehugo provided a useful paste: http://paste.openstack.org/show/586034/18:53
gagehugoI think you would have to just periodically check everyone's times to see if that date time had passed18:54
gagehugoBut that seems not easy18:54
stevemarwhich, just won't happen :P18:54
knikollaan admin api that ops register to cron?18:54
rderosestevemar: hmm... we could easily disable a user if their password is expired actually18:55
stevemargagehugo: i like the suggestion in the patch, to query if password_expires_at < current time18:55
rderosestevemar: shall I throw up a patch on this?18:55
gagehugoYeah thats what we were going for originally but the wording was bad in the first few iterations18:55
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stevemarrderose: review the patch if possible18:56
rderosesounds good18:56
bknudsonare they automatically enabled when they change their password?18:56
rderosebknudson: no18:56
bknudsonCan I change my password if I'm disabled?18:57
knikollaan admin has to change the password for them IIRC18:57
gagehugoUsers are not disabled when their password expires, nor are they disabled when they try to auth after expiration18:57
bknudsonusually if my password is expired I can still change my password18:57
stevemarbknudson: usually, yes18:57
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stevemardon't think we're going to figure it out in < 2 minutes, but please review the spec and we can chat in -keystone18:58
rderosebknudson: if your password expires, you will need admin password reset18:58
AJaegercould the admin password expire as well?18:58
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stevemarAJaeger: yep18:59
AJaegerAnd who would reset that one?18:59
gagehugoYes, I accidentally locked my admin user out18:59
rderoseAJaeger: another admin18:59
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stevemarAJaeger: you can mark certain user IDs as being privileged and not subject to the PCI expiry settings18:59
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bknudsonas an admin I don't want to have to deal with users.18:59
AJaegerstevemar: I see - that works19:00
stevemartimes up19:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct 18 19:00:27 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-10-18-18.00.html19:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-10-18-18.00.txt19:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-10-18-18.00.log.html19:00
stevemarsee everyone in barcelona in a few days!19:00
fungiinfra team, assemble!19:00
pleia2bknudson: quote of the day19:00
bknudsonhe he19:00
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fungithis week's topics proposed by flaper87, ianychoi, eumel8, fungi19:01
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jeblairas a user, i don't want to have to deal with ___19:01
fungi#startmeeting infra19:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Oct 18 19:02:22 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:02
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:02
fungimany thanks to pleia2 for chairing last week's meeting in my absence!19:02
pleia2you're welcome19:02
fungii've read the log, seems it was pretty straightforward and brief19:02
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fungi#topic Announcements19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
fungi#info The Infra team meeting will be skipped next week as many will be at the summit, but we will reconvene our usual meeting on Tuesday, November 1 at 19:00 UTC.19:03
fungias always, feel free to hit me up with announcements you want included in future meetings19:03
fungi#topic Actions from last meeting19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
fungi#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-10-11-19.02.html19:03
fungipleia2 to add infra summit schedule19:03
fungi#link https://www.openstack.org/summit/barcelona-2016/summit-schedule/global-search?t=Infrastructure%3A19:03
fungithanks for taking care of that as well!19:03
pleia2we have a schedule now \o/19:03
fungianyone want to volunteer to prep etherpads for each of the sessions listed there, so they're ready for use next week?19:03
* fungi waits for everyone to jump at that exciting task19:04
Zaragah, lag, I'm still waiting for it to load19:04
pleia2I can knock it out real quick this afternoon19:05
fungiyeah, the schedule site there is pretty slow. not sure what's up (or down?) with that19:05
Zaraoh, okay, I thought it was on my end. I'm happy to do the etherpad for task-tracking19:05
fungipleia2: awesome!19:05
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fungiyeah, we just need some skeleton etherpads added to the summit etherpads wiki page, and then the people leading those sessions can add plenty of prep detail19:06
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Design_Summit/Ocata/Etherpads19:06
fungiapparently that exists already19:06
fungi#action pleia2 add skeleton infra session etherpads linked from the ocata design summit etherpads wiki page19:07
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fungi#topic Specs approval19:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:07
funginothing new this week on the agenda19:07
fungithough as pleia2 pointed out last week, the zuul v3 spec clarification we agreed to approve has not merged yet19:07
fungi(i didn't forget to approve it, but it depends on another spec update we'd opted to defer for further discussion)19:07
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/381330 Zuul v3: correct vagueness in describing job inheritance19:07
jeblairexpect me to push on those after summit19:08
fungiif someone (jeblair?) wants to rebase that onto the master branch tip, i'm happy to reapprove19:08
fungior we can wait for the other to land19:08
jeblairi think it's no rush19:08
fungithanks jeblair!19:08
fungii just didn't want anyone to think i was even more absent-minded than i am ;)19:08
fungi#topic Priority Efforts19:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)"19:09
funginothing is called out on the agenda19:09
fungithough zaro is suggesting that we should probably at least fast-track the next gerrit upgrade so that it gets done very early in the ocata cycle19:09
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fungiif someone wants to put together a very small spec for it (could mostly just copy the last upgrade spec), i agree it would make sense as an ocata cycle priority effort19:09
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fungihe's apparently got a few outstanding changes up for review that build up a more complete dev environment where we can demo a new gerrit version more thoroughly integrated into zuul/nodepool19:10
zaroi'm working on the spec19:10
fungithanks zaro! i'll be keeping an eye out for it19:10
fungi#topic Host http://shields.io/ for generating badges to show on repos (flaper87)19:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Host http://shields.io/ for generating badges to show on repos (flaper87) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:11
fungi#link http://shields.io/19:11
fungi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-October/105562.html19:11
fungii will admit i haven't caught up on the dev ml backlog while i was travelling19:11
fungiso no clue what this is about, but i'm sure you'll tell me ;)19:11
flaper87So, in the context of that email thread linked there, I was wondering whether it may be possible for us to host that service. The idea is to be able to generate some badges (like the ones you'd see in github for travis) so that we can expose some information about the teams/projects directly on the readme files19:12
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flaper87the goal is not to duplicate this information but to read it from the governance website directly. We've several ways to make this possible but the three easist are:19:12
flaper871) Host the shield app and adapt it to our needs 2) have the host repo add `openstack` support (I've a basic patch for this) 3) HAve an API under governance.openstack.org that generates these badges19:13
flaper87These won't be "rendered" in git.openstack.org, though19:13
flaper87As we don't render .rst files there19:13
fungiokay, so mostly just callouts to some query against governance tags that apply to projects or deliverables to which those repos belong?19:14
AJaegerflaper87: why do we need a complete app to show some images?19:14
flaper87AJaeger: because it does the job already19:14
flaper87otherwise we'd have to come up with the API for that19:14
flaper87render the images, etc19:14
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flaper87which is what shields does19:14
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flaper87you may argue that we may not want to host nodejs apps, and that's a good point19:14
clarkbwhy do we need an api for that?19:14
clarkbcant we just host the images anywhere (including in the repo itself) and render from there?19:15
flaper87clarkb: I think we do if we want it to be dynamic19:15
clarkbit seems like a lot of effort to run a new service for a service we don't even support other than as a git mirror when you can just host the images anywhere19:15
jeblair(i guess you could approximate dynamic by rendering them in a cron)19:15
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flaper87note that this is not just to "have nice badges" in the github repos19:16
fungioh, this would display on github? i was misreading and though this was intended to be an overlay for the cgit interface on git.openstack.org19:16
flaper87It's about communicating better the status of projects, etc19:16
ianwflaper87: how often do we expect them to change?  i see it for CI status, but not sure about at this level19:16
clarkbfungi: it would only work in github today aiui19:16
clarkbin theory cgit could be made to also render such things but it doesn't do so today19:16
flaper87I would say not very often, tbh19:16
flaper87clarkb: if cgit can render such things, it'd be awesome to have it do that19:17
clarkbflaper87: it cannot19:17
clarkbflaper87: you would have to modify cgit to do it iirc19:17
flaper87clarkb: oh, nvm then19:17
fungiand this shields.io app already knows how to consume our governance tag metadata from the existing yaml file, or takes some manner of dsl to understand how to do so?19:17
flaper87so, if hosting shields is a no-go, then finding a different solution would be required19:17
flaper87fungi: I've a patch for that, locally19:17
clarkbflaper87: I am not saying its a no go, just wondering if its really the best solution for us here19:18
flaper87I was waiting for this meeting to happen before doing anything else19:18
jeblair#link https://www.mail-archive.com/cgit@lists.zx2c4.com/msg01769.html interesting recent thread about cgit rst rendering19:18
clarkbsince we don't really support github for such things, so adding a new service just for github shinies seems odd19:18
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clarkband there are other ways we could communicate this information19:18
fungiflaper87: clarkb: well, the readme rendering situation with cgit is a little more nuanced than that... pleia2 came up with some options, but ultimately it's hard to decide whether/when to display the rendered readme vs the source code. ultimately we have per-repo documentation sites to serve rendered rst anyway19:18
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fungiand to me at least, the point of a source code browser is to show you source code, not rendered documentation content19:19
flaper87Exposing these info in the docs is also on the works, fwiw. I'm looking into that19:19
ianwit could just as easily be included in actual documentation, rather than just README?19:19
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clarkbfungi: yes one of my annoyances with the rendered docs on eg github is you can't link to lines in the docs19:19
flaper87fungi: right but people normally go to the git repo19:19
flaper87I do understand the point but that's not the reality19:19
flaper87and the goal is to make this information more evident as it's a source of confusion for many people19:20
jeblairclarkb: interestingly, that's effectively what the last message in that thread says :)19:20
fungiwell, i'm saying we might benefit from coming up with a tighter integration to link git repos to their rendered documentation sites19:20
AJaegerflaper87: we have problems with using github API, so I'm feeling uncomfortable to push people to github.19:20
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flaper87AJaeger: we're not going to use GH's API19:20
* zaro likes that github renders readme files19:20
jeblairfungi: this is the first i've heard about the "about" feature of cgit19:20
flaper87AJaeger: not sure I understand that last statement19:21
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ianwI know we don't like periodic jobs ... but it does seem that a periodic job that could replace some template string in README's based on a YAML file might be helpful here?19:21
pleia2jeblair: yeah, it's a thing19:21
fungijeblair: mentioned in that ml thread i guess? i'm entirely unaware of the about feature there anyway19:21
ianwrather than the other way of pull the status every time from an api19:21
flaper87ianw: I'd really like to avoid duplicating the info19:21
flaper87if we duplicate this info, it'll encourage people to just modify it19:21
AJaegerflaper87: that was in reaction to github READMEs etc.19:21
* Zara has been poking around in a cgitrc a bit today, can confirm you can get it to render markdown and things (and more advanced syntax hilighting from the looks of things) but the line numbers won't match up nicely19:22
flaper87I would like this info/badges to be pulled from some other API that reads/parses the governance site19:22
ianwflaper87: well you put stuff like "FOLLOWING LINE IS AUTOGENERATED DO NOT TOUCH" around it19:22
flaper87ianw: that doesn't work, really.19:22
fungiZara: (un?)surprisingly, github has the same issue19:22
jesusauris the goal to have a friendly way of displaying the governance info? or to have a way of consuming the governance info in project repos?19:23
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ianwi dunno, we use it quite well for stuff like devstack plugin lists19:23
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flaper87jesusaur: both ?19:23
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flaper87FWIW, I'm not saying shields is the best solution. It's an option though. I think clarkb's idea of just generating these images might be good as well19:24
clarkbflaper87: mostly I want something that will work with not github and just generating images seems like it would work everywhere19:24
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fungii can completely understand the sentiment that we should avoid reimplementing a wheel which already exists, though it sounds like the shields.io wheel may be different enough from our needs/expectations to make putting together something new (and different) more desirable19:25
jeblairclarkb: could be used in readmes, documentation, and 'cgit about' if we figure out how to use that...?19:25
flaper87clarkb: yup, I can see that working and it should not take long to generate these images when new changes land in the governance repos19:25
clarkbjeblair: ya at least for the rendered versions of such things19:25
flaper87clarkb: jeblair exactly19:26
jeblair#link https://git.zx2c4.com/cgit/about/ this looks like a cgit about thingy19:26
flaper87It'd show the image19:26
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flaper87ok, let me explore more on the image generation path for this and I'll get back to y'all19:26
pleia2it's been a couple years since I looked at it, but it requires a file in the repo and the config pointing at the specific about file19:26
flaper87(after the summit, of course)19:27
jesusaurcould we generate static content from the governance repo into a docs site and then link to the generated static info?19:27
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AJaegerjesusaur: we could ;)19:27
jesusauri dont know if that would be easier than using shields19:27
fungi#agreed The idea of having a consistent set of icons/badges displayed for various project repositories has merit, but the shields.io implementation seems to not fit a number of requirements we would have so further investigation is warranted.19:27
AJaegerjesusaur: a post job on governance that publishes somewhere...19:27
jeblairpleia2: yeah, might end up being impractical for us.  but worth some brainstorming maybe19:27
jesusaurAJaeger: ya thats what i was thinking19:28
pleia2jeblair: nods19:28
fungiflaper87: definitely a neat idea, thanks for bringing it up19:28
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flaper87jesusaur: if we generate the badges, I'd rather just show them in the read me. We can link the docs too but, srsly, not many people click on those anyway. I want these info to be clear and evident and it doesn't sound invasive to me19:28
flaper87fungi: thanks for listening, I'll dig more into the badge generation idea nad report back19:28
flaper87hopefully with a script that we can just use19:28
flaper87shouldn't be hard/long to do19:29
fungimaybe rendering the readme (and embedding the icons/badges for stuff) in the cgit about page would make sense19:29
flaper87that's all I have for now19:29
fungibut yeah, lots of possibilities for brainstorming, and a limited window to discuss in today's meeting19:29
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flaper87thanks everyone19:29
fungithanks again, flaper8719:29
fungi#topic I18n: translation checksite (ianychoi, eumel8)19:29
* flaper87 bows and waves19:29
*** openstack changes topic to "I18n: translation checksite (ianychoi, eumel8) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:29
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fungi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2016-October/004776.html19:29
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fungii saw the e-mail on the infra ml, but have been gone for over a week so only just read it an hour or so ago19:30
pleia2so my primary concern here is that we still don't really use Ansible for service deployments (we use Puppet for that, Ansible is just orchestrating)19:31
eumel8it's a proposal to change the architecture of the upcoming translation check site from DevStack to openstack-ansible19:31
fungi#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-ansible-os_translation-checksite new openstack translation checksite for i18n team19:31
fungilooks relevant19:31
pleia2and I'm not exactly sure how Ansible solves the problem19:31
pleia2seems if we go the container route, we could make Puppet do similar things19:32
eumel8it puts horizon into lxc container for better maintenance19:32
pleia2but I would like other folks to chime in here19:32
fungidoes openstack-ansible successfully deploy a single-node environment from master tip of the various projects involved?19:33
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clarkbI think that is how they test so yes19:33
fungii gather a lot of the prior pain was related to how to do continuous deployment consistently and deal gracefully with failures when you cant19:33
eumel8I think so. There is a link in the docs for All-In-One installation19:33
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pleia2I see, so by using ansible we're getting away from devstack entirely19:34
eumel8that's true, fungi19:34
pleia2fungi: yeah, devstack breaks sometimes (heh)19:34
eumel8yes, openstack-ansible is completly other code19:34
fungiso it's probably worth at least somewhat separating the discussion of infrastructure automation tooling from the openstack deployment tooling involved19:34
fungiin this case, ansible instead of devstack, but possibly still driven from a puppet module?19:35
pleia2I was thinking that19:36
eumel8mhmm, could be19:36
pleia2ansible runs puppet to run ansible \o/19:36
eumel8depends on the deployment mechanism of the VM19:36
jeblairi don't really understand how using ansible avoids the 'breaks' that were seen with devstack19:36
ianwI feel like if you're using ansible, devstack, or whatever to deploy and openstack environment from master, it's going to be unstable.  which brings you back to the same sort of "A is working, try building B and switch it in" problem we had before?19:36
pleia2ianw, jeblair, yeah, that's a fair point19:37
pleia2it's not really devstack that breaks sometimes, it's master doesn't always behave the way we want for this sort of thing19:37
ianychoi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2016-July/004524.html19:37
ianychoiAccording to this, #3 is one of weak points in DevStack.. Would Ansible address it?19:38
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eumel8there is no experience with openstack-ansible because it's very new19:38
ianychoiAnd for #2, i18n now thinks that we may do not have once a19:38
ianychoiweek instance19:38
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eumel8but you can respawn the container when it's failed instead the whole VM19:39
fungiyep, part of the challenge here is that we currently either semi-manually deploy a server and then we keep it around running a fairly consistent and continuously deployed stack of software (our long-lived servers), or we automatically deploy throw-away servers with nodepool to run (relatively) brief jobs. the idea of having servers automatically deployed which conditionally replace each other in19:39
fungiour infrastructure is still an untrodden path and i think a lot of the challenges will be there19:39
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eumel8would you use openstack-ansible in general for the infrastructure?19:40
eumel8in the future?19:40
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fungii guess one of the points being made is that by adding an extra layer of isolation (openstack in containers on a vm) avoids deploying entire replacement servers?19:41
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eumel8yes, fungi19:41
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AJaegerso, what is the service expectation here from translators? A service that is always running and working - or would a downtime of a couple of days until OpenStack ansible team/project team fix problems be ok?19:41
ianwthis also means an extra layer of things to go wrong ;)19:41
fungiso we would just build one check-site server, and try to deploy replacement containers on that server, and only drop the old container if teh new one works?19:42
jeblairdeploy replacement containers on a long-lived server fits fairly well with the current long-lived server model19:42
fungii also wonder how you effectively leave the previous containerized openstack running on that server while deploying and testing another one19:42
eumel8AJaeger: depends on the timeframe. in the hot translation phase it's critical19:42
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jeblair(otoh, if we wanted to explore replacing long-lived servers, there is good ansible infrastructure around for that.  we'd need to push on the automated dns project though)19:43
fungijeblair: or use http redirects maybe19:43
fungihave a stable redirector which can be updated through automation, then no need to auto-update dns19:44
jeblairfungi: omg we'll just update a file in afs19:44
* fungi gets to work reimplementing dns in afs19:44
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bkeroyay custom nsswitch resolvers19:44
fungi(dns in afs wouldn't be far off from the old arpa hostlist which was distributed via ftp!)19:45
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bkerosomeone made one of those backed by etcd for our toy tinc vpn19:45
clarkbfungi: but how would you know where the afs servers are!?19:45
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fungibut anyway, i agree with jeblair that the containerization feature of openstack-ansible does seem like it could fit pretty well with our long-lived server concept, and avoid the challenge of updating a devstack deployment19:46
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fungisince it's presumably a completely from-scratch redeploy19:46
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eumel8good :)19:47
fungiwithout lingering cruft you'd have to deal with attempting to replace devstack19:47
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ianychoiAJaeger, eumel8 yep depends on the time frame.. but I think one stable translation checksite around feature freeze, only Horizon update between soft freeze and hard stringfreeze (RC1 target), having a new stable translation checksite after RC1 will be release would be nice (I need to discuss such timeframe more with eumel8 )19:47
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jeblairhttps://github.com/CentOS-PaaS-SIG/linch-pin may be an interesting project if we were to consider the replace-the-server option19:49
fungii have one more topic i'm hoping to get to today, but yeah this seems like it could be a path forward (speaking specifically of the "replace devstack with openstack-ansible" part of the design... how we drive that from our infrastructure is something we'd need to flesh out separately)19:49
crinklethis would mean infra is deploying openstack three different ways, 1) devstack in the gate, 2) ansible for translations, 3) puppet for infracloud19:49
fungiyep. it does sound insane when stated that way ;)19:50
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fungialternatively, infra is deploying openstack three different ways: 1) short-lived servers with nodepool, 2) on bare-metal for production environments, 3) in containers for a stateless translation check site19:51
fungieach of those is a use case which informs the appropriate tooling19:51
fungithere are efficiency and complexity trade-offs to drive them in different directions19:52
crinklethat's a good perspective19:52
eumel8I think this container thing will increase in the future. There is a lot's of effort in lxc and lxd19:52
fungieumel8: ianychoi: want to follow up on the infra ml thread with a summary of this and we can try to hash out where we go next?19:53
eumel8yes, thanks, fungi!19:54
ianychoiyep also eumel8, pleia2 then for translation checksite, it seems that http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/translation_check_site.html needs to be changed with such thoughts :)19:54
fungi#agreed Containerized openstack may make sense as an alternative to devstack for the I18n check site deployment, so further exploration is warranted.19:54
fungiianychoi: yep, that would be one of the steps19:55
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pleia2ianychoi: want to start working on a change for that?19:55
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ianychoieumel8, would you start with me for revising this infra-spec?19:56
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eumel8yes, of course19:56
fungiexcellent. i'm going to selfishly switch to the final topic on the agenda now since it's mine and nobody can stop me ;) thanks ianychoi and eumel8!19:56
fungi#topic Root sysadmin volunteer to deploy pholio server (fungi)19:57
ianychoipleia2, yep I will do with eumel8 :)19:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Root sysadmin volunteer to deploy pholio server (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:57
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fungi#link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/pholio.html19:57
ianychoiThanks all!19:57
eumel8thx to all19:57
fungiper craige, the automation for this is basically all merged (thanks for working through all that, craige!)19:57
fungii would _love_ to see this turned up very soon, as i'm sure would piet and the rest of the ui/ux team19:57
fungiany infra-root admins interested in taking up the task of attempting to deploy it?19:57
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pleia2I'm too snowed under with prep for summit, sorry19:57
fungiand maybe hashing out fixes for any minor issues encountered along teh way?19:57
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clarkbpleia2: same here19:58
fungipleia2: yep, you've gotta stop volunteering for everything ;)19:58
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ianwi know little about it, but I think craige and i are in the same tz?19:58
clarkbianw: closer together than the rest of us at least19:59
fungiianw: yep, he said he's around at least via e-mail if not irc to help with the handoff to this part of the task19:59
ianwwell i can read up and correspond with him19:59
fungiif you're able, give it a shot and ask for help as needed19:59
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fungii'm happy to try to back you up on it too, though of course timezones are a thing20:00
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fungi#action ianw work on deploying a pholio server20:00
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fungiwe're out of time--thanks everyone!20:00
fungisee some of you _very_ soon!20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct 18 20:00:53 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-10-18-19.02.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-10-18-19.02.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-10-18-19.02.log.html20:00
ttxOK, let's see if we can have quorum today20:01
* fungi quorums20:01
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ttxdhellmann, dtroyer, johnthetubaguy, mordred, sdague, thingee: around ?20:01
dtroyero/  modulo airport wifi20:01
stevemari love quoruming20:01
ttxdims, mtreinish, EmilienM are excused20:01
Rockygor is it quoraing?20:01
ttxlooks like we quorumed20:01
Rockygplural of quorum being quora....20:01
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ttx#startmeeting tc20:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Oct 18 20:02:02 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:02
ttxHi everyone,20:02
* edleafe lurks in the back of the room20:02
ttxOur agenda for today:20:02
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:02
ttx(remember to use #info #idea and #link liberally to make for a more readable summary)20:02
* stevemar drags edleafe up to the front20:02
ttx#topic Finalized BoD/TC/UC meeting agenda20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Finalized BoD/TC/UC meeting agenda (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
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ttxSo I communicated our ideas to Alan and he came up with an agenda that should cover most of our points20:03
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Foundation/24Oct2016BoardMeeting#Joint_Board.2FTC.2FUser_Committee_Meeting_.28DRAFT.2920:03
ttxlet me know if you have comments20:03
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ttxNote that the "Incubating New Concepts and Projects" point (proposed by Board members) is a bit of a misnomer.20:03
ttxI expect it to be about our criteria for approving projects20:03
ttx- the "Mission" fit, and how far it can go20:04
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ttx- the "Community" fit, and the cost of [not] supporting additional languages20:04
* flaper87 wonders what "Incubating New Concepts and Projects" is20:04
flaper87guess we'll find out20:04
mordredI'm SOOOOO looking forward to that section20:04
dtroyerheh, it Imad20:04
ttxmordred: inorite20:04
mordredI will try my best to not get kicked out of the room for violating the code of conduct20:04
ttxI managed to put it at the end, so maybe we could start drinkikng at the same time20:05
sdaguemordred: don't try too hard20:05
mordredsdague: :)20:05
ttxI hope we can keep it civil and mostly around explaining our current decision on Go and how we expect to make progress in the future20:05
fungimordred can be the off-the-chain element so that the rest of us seem comparatively rational20:05
mordredttx: I actually ....20:05
ttxbut yes, could end up being pretty heated :)20:05
mordredttx: honestly, I reject the premise that we need to explain our current decision on go20:06
amrithttx, I'm wondering about the item "Upstream developer investment". Is that being led by the TC or the Board or the UC?20:06
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mordredany more than we expect the board to explain decisions it makes on trademark policy20:06
ttxwe don't need to justify it, but explaining it sounds good to me20:06
mordredttx: sure. but I would like to make sure we keep i mind that explaining is what we're doing, not justifying20:06
ttxamrith: it's coming from us, but the title is alan's20:06
johnthetubaguyexplaining why we think its hard would be no bad thing20:06
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flaper87TBH, I don't mind to talk about it but, if we need to *explain* it, then we might have done a poor job communicating the decision properly20:07
amrithttx, thx. as in the past, I'm assuming that this is an open meeting (open to non TC/Board/UC), yes?20:07
flaper87I'd expect the same message to the dev community to be useful for the board20:07
dhellmannflaper87: a lot of people heard "no" and stopped listening at "because..."20:07
fungiamrith: concerns over loss of large blocks of upstream contributors as some of our member companies shift directions and scale back their involvement/use of openstack20:07
ttxdhellmann: exactly20:07
amrithfungi, you are describing my day-to-day20:07
flaper87dhellmann: right, I would expect some people not to stop there20:07
ttxdhellmann: a lot of people heard "no" when we said "no, not now and not this way"20:08
dhellmannttx: yes, that, too20:08
* johnthetubaguy nods at ttx20:08
flaper87That being said, (over-)communicating won't get rid of surprises entirely and surprises are not always a sign of lack of transparency20:08
dtroyerfwiw, some have had it explained to them many times since then20:08
ttxAnother topic I raised (and which was accepted on the agenda) is how we approach the programming of the “forum” for Boston and beyond.20:08
flaper87anyway, like I said, I don't mind us talking about it. I do want us to reflect if something went wrong on how we communicated this20:09
ttxTo make that event successful we need to make sure all of the facets of our community participate in proposing (and selecting) the topics we'll discuss there20:09
ttxso it's a good cross-community topic (UC+TC)20:09
stevemarttx: that came up today in the keystone meeting, folks were wondering what the forums will look like20:09
ttxIt's a tight agenda20:09
johnthetubaguytrue, we need UC help there20:09
ttxstevemar: they will look like a lot like cross-project workshops, ops fishbowls and other town halls we had in the past20:10
ttxstevemar: happy to give people more explanation, but maybe off-meeting20:10
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ttxAny other comment on the BoD+TC+UC agenda ?20:11
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dhellmannit does look tight, but all of the topics look good this time20:11
ttxok, moving on then20:12
ttx#topic Add more ways to get extra-atcs into the books20:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Add more ways to get extra-atcs into the books (Meeting topic: tc)"20:12
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/38189420:12
ttxSo in the reviews there seems to be two ways of looking at this one20:12
ttx1/ Ops feedback is an upstream contribution, so AUCs should be considered extra-atcs and vote in the TC election20:12
ttx2/ Solution is to set up proper elections around the UC to give that body more influence, so this change is a distraction that would likely delay efforts for proper recognition of users for what they are20:12
ttxBoth are valid imho, so I'd like us to think a bit more about it20:13
ttxWe'll discuss in-person the UC charter at the BoD+TC+UC meeting, so I think it will be a great venue to make progress on that question20:13
johnthetubaguyhonestly, it feels like the end goal might be both20:13
ttxAnd discuss if it's better to (1) have TC and UC constituency overlapping, but distinct; or (2) have both consituencies voting in both elections (ATC vote for UC and AUC vote for TC)20:13
dhellmannbased on earlier discussions about extra-atcs, I've added "reminder" notes to the release process to be sent out at different times in the countdown emails that I send for the release team20:13
ttxor (3) some other creative solution20:13
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: yeh, it just feels like 2 should go first20:13
dtroyerttx, did I understand your comment about the timeframe for the UC to be 6months or so? -ish?20:13
ttxPersonally I like to keep constituencies aligned with the area the body oversees, so I lean toward (1)20:14
ttxdtroyer: it might actually get even faster20:14
johnthetubaguysdague: yeah, it feels like we violate our principals if not20:14
ttxthe board might vote on bylaws amendment before end of year20:14
sdaguettx: are AUCs already being accumulated and listed somewhere?20:14
ttxfor elections early January20:14
dhellmannttx: what sort of things are you thinking when you say "give that body more influence"?20:14
ttxsdague: I don't thnk they finalized the criteria, it's part of their charter they want to present at the meeting20:14
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thingeeI agree with sdague's last comment that I'd like to see that first as well.20:15
fungiit's worth noting that auc covers a lot more types of contribution than people may be realizing. for example, writing an article for superuser magazine, being a track chair for the conference, answering questions on ask.o.o...20:15
dtroyeryeah, if the timeframe isn't long, agreed on #2 first20:15
thingeedtroyer: +120:15
johnthetubaguyI love the idea of everyone voting in both elections, on the grounds of us all needing to work closely together, but that might be going too far too quickly20:15
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johnthetubaguyeveryone = AUC + ATC20:15
fungiit's not entirely clear to me that all of the things which make someone eligible as an auc make sense for the tc electorate20:15
ttxdhellmann: I think it's better if the UC has legitimacy built from elections, rather than start counting how many AUCs there are vs. ATCs20:16
ttxAlso I like the suggestion of having a representative from the other committss sitting20:16
dhellmannttx: ok, that makes sense20:16
johnthetubaguyour principals do suggest the need for electing a UC20:16
flaper87ttx: yeah20:16
dhellmannfungi : yes, I tend to agree20:16
ttxlike UC appointing one member to the TC and the other way around20:16
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stevemarfungi: agreed, and vice versa20:16
johnthetubaguy appointing a representative is a nice alternative20:16
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ttxotherwise it's like, the moment there are 51% AUC in the electorate we get ops, and at 49% we don't20:17
ttxI prefer to guarantee some representation20:17
dhellmannyes, good point20:17
ttxand mend the gap by having people sitting on both sides20:17
johnthetubaguyttx: hmm, true20:17
johnthetubaguysounds like a good starting point20:18
ttxso I think it's urgent to wait for the meeting and see how fast that elected UC can be set up20:18
sdaguehonestly, I would be careful trying to build a complex model instead of just making more forums to talk to each other20:18
ttxhappy to discuss this more in-person next week20:18
* mordred wants to also remind everyone that UC !== ops because users != operators20:18
mordredthere are at least 2 different sets of under-represented users, ops are one20:19
johnthetubaguysdague: more forums? do you have an example? is that the new "forum" thingy?20:19
ttxmordred: how much does the AUC criteria care for end users, though20:19
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sdaguejohnthetubaguy: no, I just mean in general20:19
mordredttx: I do not know how much it cares for end users now - but hopefully it will be working towards caring about them20:19
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Rockygttx:  pretty good representation beyond Ops20:19
dhellmannyeah, I've always associated the UC with "people who run openstack" not just people on the other side of an openstack API20:19
mordredotherwise I will need to suggest we call it the operator committee20:19
johnthetubaguysdague: OK, cool, +1 that, I am just struggling to work out how to make that happen20:19
sdaguesome times it looks like we can build a complicated process or governance thing to replace spending time getting to know each other and listen20:19
sdagueand... I think it works poorly :)20:20
mordredI am on a mission to remind people that API users are users20:20
stevemarsdague: bad timing to use the word "forum" :P20:20
sdaguestevemar: yes20:20
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johnthetubaguysdague: yeah, thats certainly a thing we have a tendency towards20:20
flaper87mordred: might be the case... (re name)20:20
stevemar"channels/venues for communication"20:20
mordredbut - we'll be in the room with the UC next week - so we can chat about it :)20:20
sdaguemordred: maybe that's another reason to get the UC going on direct election first and make sure it's getting the right mix there20:20
ttxok, everyone agrees to defer the decision on that one to at least after that BoD+TC+UC meeting ?20:20
mordredttx: ++20:20
flaper87oh yeah20:20
mordredsdague: ++20:20
sdaguettx: ++20:20
fungisounds good20:21
ttx#agreed let's defer the decision on this one until after the UC presents its charter to the BoD+TC+UC meeting next week20:21
ttxmoving on to next topic20:21
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ttx#topic Add "Contributing Is Our Currency" to principles doc20:21
*** openstack changes topic to "Add "Contributing Is Our Currency" to principles doc (Meeting topic: tc)"20:21
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/38211020:21
ttxLooks like this one is close enough to be merged now20:22
ttxThere is a follow-up tweak from cdent @20:22
stevemar++, its been through enough word smithing (and the follow-on patch)20:22
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/38737020:22
ttxwhich we'll consider at the next meeting (also would very much like to have mtreinish's opinion on it)20:22
cdentyeah, I stripped it down to its bare essence20:22
flaper87ttx: can we start merging mtreinish's ?20:22
ttxObjections to getting the initial one merged now ?20:22
cdentI hope people saw the comment I left on patchset one, I'm increasingly concerned about that20:22
dhellmanncdent : ps1 of which?20:23
cdentdhellmann: my follow up20:23
ttx"While working on this it made think of something I've been very concerned about in a lot of 'do-ocracy' style communities: If contribution is cast as "fixing problems" then being overly zealous about 'do-ocracy' can have a negative impact on people being wiling to "identify problems" (aka "complain about stuff that doesn't work well") because they will be expected to fix it at that point, even if20:23
ttxthey don't know how or don't have time. I've both witnessed and experienced this in OpenStack."20:23
dhellmannah, yes20:23
* ttx merges initial version unless someone screams20:24
flaper87ttx: what if I scream "YES, MERGE IT" ?20:24
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ttxflaper87: that will make me pause and merge it20:24
flaper87oh ok20:24
* flaper87 takes note20:24
fungiand elicit offers to help you fix your caps-lock key20:24
* mordred likes the cdent followup- wants to bikeshed over 'anyone' vs. 'everyone'20:24
ttxok, it's in20:24
stevemarcdent: we can add something that encourages folks to still identify problems?20:24
sdagueI think the point of this is there were 3 sections about voting in the priciples before, and 0 sections about contributing20:25
flaper87fungi: but it's a scream :P20:25
flaper87sdague: ++20:25
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dhellmannI'm not sure about removing the sentence about hierarchy from cdent's follow-up. We see that frequently, folks joining the community and trying to push change through the TC or PTLs instead of allocating resources and doing work.20:26
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mordredI would also love to how to communicate "we value identifying problems, but also you can't possibly get upset if your issues don't get immediately addressed if you aren't providing resources to address them" without being negative20:26
mordreddhellmann: we may have just said the same thing20:26
mordredalthough dhellmann said it nicer, as might be expected20:26
dhellmannmordred : I think so, yes20:26
ttxdhellmann: yeah, I don't think that this sentence is redundant at all20:26
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sdagueand while I do get the concern that when there is an imbalance of reporting vs. fixing problems we run into friction, I'm not sure any set of words make that go away20:26
stevemarmordred: i like that one20:26
* flaper87 agrees with dhellmann therefore he agrees with mordred (on that last sentence)20:26
flaper87sdague: agreed, I think comon sense comes into play there20:27
EmilienM(hi, just landed)20:27
mordredalthough I agree with sdague20:27
cdentpart of the reason I remove the hierarchy sentence was because it was so twisted and strained that I couldn't think of a good way to put it, so I just dropped it20:27
edleafedhellmann: it's tricky. Sometimes they do the work, and then get told "that's not how we want to go".20:27
dhellmannmaybe we can add something about there being a lot of different ways to contribute, to address the concern about do-ocracy?20:27
mordredcdent: yah. like, I like the way your thing reads, and although I have my concern, I think sdague makes a good point20:27
dhellmannedleafe : yeah, that's a completely different problem20:28
ttxok, let's do a few other review rounds on cdent's tweak20:28
dhellmannedleafe : or, well, related but not identical20:28
ttxand move on to the next agenda item20:28
johnthetubaguycdent: coming to talk constructively with the community about the problem, and helping write it down counts as doing, but maybe I am stretching that too far?20:28
fungiedleafe: the challenge there being that part of "doing the work" means making it acceptable to the rest of the community20:28
mordredwhich is that the c-suite folks who expect everyone else to fix their problems without doing anything themselves aren't going to read this in the first place20:28
edleafedhellmann: yup20:28
flaper87johnthetubaguy: I don't think there's a magic formula for that20:28
johnthetubaguyyeah, I am +1 sdague's comment on that20:28
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sdagueand also realizing we are all humans with finite bandwidth, and sometimes people don't fully understand the ramifications of things from early sketches20:28
mordredyah. also, sometimes your idea is bad20:28
mordredand the rest of the community will tell you that20:29
mordredand it doesn't make you a bad person20:29
stevemarIMO the sentence removed in 387370 just explains our structure, that's not the same as 'hey i found an issue, but don't have the technical skill to fix the code', filing a bug is still helpful20:29
fungi(my ideas are often bad, and i'm glad people tell me)20:29
mordredfungi: same here!20:29
mordredit's like the definition of most of my days20:29
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johnthetubaguyfungi: FWIW, thats totally why I love OpenStack20:29
ttxok, let's iterate on the review rather than try to paint it blue right now20:29
mordredttx: I WANT GREEN20:30
ttxmoving on20:30
* cdent suspects edleafe will want red20:30
ttx#topic Adjust TC and PTL election timeframes20:30
*** openstack changes topic to "Adjust TC and PTL election timeframes (Meeting topic: tc)"20:30
ttxmordred: I know20:30
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/38595120:30
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ttxSo the proposal seems to be pretty popular20:30
ttxThat changes20:30
edleafecdent: it's the only sane choice, really20:30
ttxnotmyname raises an interesting point though -- do we need buy-in from current PTLs on it ?20:30
dhellmannyes, I think so20:31
ttxOn one hand they are affected by the decision, and it can't really hurt20:31
ttxOn the other hand it's /very/ unlikely that we'll get all PTLs to signoff on this20:31
* dims peeks20:31
dhellmannit would have been better to do this before the election, but the timing didn't work out20:31
ttx(I mean, I can't even get them to all fill their design summit schedule)20:31
ttxA thread was raised on the ML, but only a few PTLs chimed in on the review as a result20:31
mugsieYes. Or at least push it out to them, and say this is going to be merged in x days20:31
dhellmannttx: I don't think they need to agree, but they need to acknowledge the change20:31
flaper87+1 for acknowledging20:31
sdagueacknowledgement would be good20:31
ttxmugsie: so... wait a bit more to gather more PTL +1s, but mention a hard deadline20:31
dhellmannor be given a chance to acknowledge20:31
ttxsounds good to me20:32
stevemarttx: set a deadline? say something now or forever hold your peace?20:32
thingeedev ml announcement / dev digest I think covers us20:32
mordredstevemar: ++20:32
flaper87thingee: TBH, I'd even push it to their inboxes20:32
edleafeBut what if they claim the whole thing is rigged?20:32
stevemarflaper87: that would be good too20:32
mordrededleafe: let's not go there20:32
ttxso I'll reply to the ML thread mentioning that we'll pass it and that they should raise now if they object20:32
sdaguehonestly, having a straw poll of them would be good. If we could hit them directly and ask them to weigh in20:32
EmilienMflaper87: right, what ttx does most of the time20:32
EmilienMflaper87: and even with that, iiuc, some ptls still don't ack20:33
dhellmannttx: would Nov 8 be a good deadline?20:33
sdaguebecause, I honestly think most people thought this is how it would be20:33
ttxEmilienM: sadly yes20:33
flaper87EmilienM: yup :(20:33
ttxdhellmann: or Nov 1st if we think we can have a meeting then20:33
johnthetubaguysdague: +1 I think most did20:33
flaper87Again Surprise != lack of transparency/communication20:33
mordredzomg. I want to jump out from behind things and yell Surprise at people all next week20:33
dhellmannttx: if we can get feedback by then, I'd be ok with the 1st, but the 8th gives PTLs time to catch up on the mailing list after summit20:34
mordredand then follow up with a really obscure TC governance factoid20:34
flaper87ttx: I'd prolly go with the 8th, just to give ppl time after the summit20:34
dtroyerI don't think waiting a week will hurt us20:34
ttx#action ttx to reply to thread mentioning a hard deadline and asking PTLs to +120:34
EmilienM+1 on 8th, it's a fair deadline regarding scheduling20:34
edleafeflaper87: not always. You can lead a horse to water...20:34
stevemardhellmann: yeah, we have some runway here20:34
ttx#agreed deadline should be TC meetign on NOv 820:34
* bswartz thinks PTLs should be elected for life...20:34
mugsieI would actually be ok with the first, but just giving a hard deadline helps getting people to do stuff20:34
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mugsiebswartz: obviously20:34
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fungibswartz: a lifetime term would drive me to an early grave, so we still might have just as much ptl turnover as we do now ;)20:35
ttxok that sounds like a plan20:35
dhellmannfungi : I was thinking something similar. "Stepping down" would take on a whole new meaning.20:35
ttxanything else on that topic ?20:35
mordredhave we had an instance of a sitting PTL losing to a challenger?20:35
ttxdhellmann: hard to do it gracefully then20:35
johnthetubaguyfungi: yeah, surprisingly equivalent I suspect20:35
dhellmannttx: quite20:36
ttxmordred: yes20:36
mordredttx: neat!20:36
edleafemordred: mikal lost to johnthetubaguy20:36
sdaguemordred: yes20:36
fungimordred: neutron at least20:36
fungioh, right, so nova too20:36
ttxand magnum20:36
mordredthat's excellent. I had forgotten both of those20:36
ttxit happens20:36
sdagueironic too iirc20:36
edleafeand I think devananda lost to jroll20:36
mordredso tons of them and I'm just dense :)20:36
ttxadrian lost to Hongbin in magnum20:37
fungiso it's actually a tradition20:37
stevemarso what we're saying is, it's happened :)20:37
edleafemordred: yes, that :)20:37
flaper87and Glance20:37
sdaguemordred: it's not a huge percentage, but it has happened20:37
ttxsdague: given the number of elections we had (not so many), it's actually significant20:37
edleafeBut has an incumbent TC member lost re-election20:37
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* edleafe stirs up the pot20:37
sdagueedleafe: yes20:37
dtroyered, yes, a couple of times20:37
mordredI lost to jaypipes back in the PPB days20:37
stevemarthats true, many more win-by-default than actual elections every 6 months20:37
edleafeok, good to know20:38
ttxlooks like we are in open discussion already20:38
amrithmordred, PPB was smaller20:38
* ttx officializes20:38
edleafettx: sorry, my bad20:38
ttx#topic Open discussion20:38
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:38
stevemarlets get the train back on track?20:38
amrithI did download all the old data and was looking at this and voting trends.20:38
amrithsurprising blocks :)20:38
stevemarttx: what about https://review.openstack.org/#/c/365590/ ?20:38
mordredamrith: the blocks are fun :)20:38
fungiamrith: any specific insights?20:38
mordredamrith: if you REALLY want fun - go read the old PPB meetings in the IRC logs20:39
ttxamrith: were there ? My partisan analysis could not detect that many20:39
mordredthe ones from year one are _fascinating_ and also make you want to remove your own leg and beat yourself with it20:39
ttxamrith: I detected a Cinder voting block and an Infra voting block20:39
fungii'm always really interested in our project-wide voting trends, but lack the bandwidth to do real analysis20:39
sdaguemordred: you and I have a different definition of fun :)20:39
amrithfungi, was going to write a blog post about the surprising number of votes with one 1 and a number of 21's ...20:39
amrithin this past election.20:39
fungiamrith: i would read ;)20:39
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amrithfungi, I am writing20:39
mordredamrith: those don't do quite what people think they do20:39
mugsieWell, there is the lack of elected people who came from a project that didn't spin out of nova20:39
mordredmugsie: not true20:40
mugsieI couldn't find any20:40
stevemarttx: any change on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/384317/ getting punted through? it's a typo type fix20:40
mordredmugsie: ttx, me, fungi20:40
ttxmordred: release management has 3 members20:40
ttxdhellmann arguably did not come from nova either20:40
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mordredyah. dhellman. flaper87 depending on whether we associate him with zaqar or glance20:40
ttxsame for EmilienM20:40
stevemarmordred: me and EmilienM too20:41
dtroyerdepends if ' came from' == 'has >1commit to'20:41
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mordreddtroyer: :)20:41
flaper87I don't think I have commits on nova...20:41
ttxheck, I have more commits in Swift than in Nova20:41
flaper87oh I do20:41
mordredmugsie: in fact, really, most of the TC does not descend from nova20:41
flaper87but yeah20:41
flaper87what mordred said20:41
ttxmugsie: what made you think that ?20:41
amrithfor the record; I got a bad microphone and I lost because the election was rigged. I'm not saying that, that's what others are saying.20:41
* flaper87 doesn't descend from nova20:41
dhellmannoh, yeah, I probably have a bunch of release or oslo-related commits to nova over the past few years, but I don't consider myself a "nova contributor"20:41
ttxinteresting myths20:42
stevemaramrith: :)20:42
cdentmugsie said project that spun out of nova20:42
cdentnot from nova20:42
mugsieProjects spun out of Nova ;)20:42
ttxWe'll obviously be skipping the online IRC TC meeting next week20:42
mugsieSorry, it's cross project or not spun out of Nova20:42
ttxmordred: what news re: TC dinner night in Barcelona ?20:42
mordredttx: still planning on having one20:42
mordredI should get a head count - so I'll send out an email and stuff20:43
ttxmugsie: true. Cross-project work definitely gives you a lift for TC, but I would argue that's fair20:43
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ttxsince the TC is actually about openstack as a whole20:43
mugsiettx: oh, I agree20:43
fungimugsie: i sprung fully formed from zeus's forehead20:43
mugsieBut is it interesting non the less20:43
ttxfungi: I thought you came from a spore20:43
jeblairfungi: from zuul's forehead?20:43
edleafettx: ha!20:43
johnthetubaguyNova is surprisingly cross project-ey in nature20:43
clarkbI think ttx wins20:44
fungijeblair: if only20:44
amrithedleafe, good question.20:44
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ttxmordred: I checked, Tickets is all booked20:44
flaper87mordred: I'm in20:44
notmynameis cross-project defined as a particular set of code repos or simply "work that involves more than one project"?20:44
mordredttx: yah. also, I was aiming for lower-key than that :)20:44
mordrednotmyname: work that is focused on the aggregate whole rather than a specific subset20:45
dhellmannmordred : my only request is not friday, since I have a friday flight20:45
mordreddhellmann: yah - thursday is when we're aiming for20:45
flaper87notmyname: I'd say projects that impact the community horizontally (?)20:45
ttxmordred: Disfrutar has some kitchen staff from El Bulli, but not low-key at all20:45
dhellmannmordred : ++20:45
flaper87mordred: thursday should work20:45
fungisometimes work on a particular library or tool that is used by many projects could be cross-project work on a single repo20:45
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fungithough more often there are corresponding changes in those projects to implement as well20:46
mugsienotmyname: I don't really have a definition, just looking at a project or repo and saying that it looks cross project20:46
ttxmordred: thursday ok but not too early (but then any decent catalan place would not serve before 9)20:46
RockygGuys,  wanted to toss some UX info your way so you can chew on it before the summit....https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8h-c0zHxYBoXzFMQWJsY09Eclk/view?usp=sharing20:47
ttxnotmyname: my definition is cross-project = work that affect most projects, while inter-project = work that affect multiple projects20:47
ttx(terminology courtesy of ildiko actually, to give credit where due)20:48
notmynamettx: ah. "inter-project". interesting20:48
ttxlike Nova-Cinder work, or Swift-Storlets20:48
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ttxok, sounds like we can wrap up early20:49
ttxAnything else, anyone ?20:49
fungiRockyg: thanks for the heads up!20:49
dhellmannI'm looking forward to seeing everyone again next week20:49
EmilienMRockyg: interesting document, thanks20:49
amrithsafe travels everyone20:49
stevemarwill be great to see everyone20:50
* dtroyer is heading there now, will be sure to not drink all the wine…20:50
ttxdhellmann: not "everyone" but "a lot"20:50
* EmilienM at airport now20:50
amrithdtroyer, if they get low on wine, just text me ... I'll bring some.20:50
fungiyes, it's worth remembering there are a lot active participants in the community who will be missing this one than we've seen in the past for various reasons20:50
RockygYour welcome.  But piet_ is the one to thank ;)20:50
* edleafe knows that ttx had me in mind20:50
dhellmannttx: fair :-)20:51
flaper87safe travels everyone!20:51
ttxalright, see you all in not-so-warm Barcelona20:51
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* flaper87 is happy that he's been long enough in this TZ to adapt already20:51
EmilienMsee you folks20:51
* dtroyer shivers20:51
* stevemar waves by at EmilienM from a few kilometers away20:52
fungi(forecast says hawaiian shirts and shorts for me)20:52
EmilienMstevemar: :'(20:52
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ttxOh, I spotted a beach bar like 5 min from the summit venue20:52
EmilienMfungi: ahah, not surprised ;-)20:52
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ttxon those good words20:53
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:53
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct 18 20:53:30 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:53
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-10-18-20.02.html20:53
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-10-18-20.02.txt20:53
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-10-18-20.02.log.html20:53
EmilienMttx: o/ thx for chairing20:53
ttxSafe travels!20:53
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