Tuesday, 2017-05-02

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hongbin#startmeeting zun03:00
openstackMeeting started Tue May  2 03:00:03 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hongbin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.03:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.03:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'zun'03:00
hongbin#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Zun#Agenda_for_2017-05-02_0300_UTC Today's agenda03:00
hongbin#topic Roll Call03:00
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hongbinthanks for joining the meeting Namrata mkrai kevinz03:02
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Shunlisorry for late03:02
shubhamsshubhams \o03:02
hongbinthanks for joining Shunli shubhams , you are not late :)03:02
hongbinok, let's get started03:02
hongbin#topic Announcements03:02
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*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: zun)"03:02
hongbin1. We have a "Boston Summit" release by the end of April03:03
hongbin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/459160/03:03
hongbin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/461187/03:03
hongbin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/460763/03:03
hongbinthey are the releases of zun, zunclient, and zun-ui respectively03:03
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hongbinyou could see the new tag on the github now03:03
hongbinthey are 0.1.0 or 0.2.003:03
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hongbinhope you enjoy them03:04
hongbin2. A proposed change of Zun core team03:04
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hongbin#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-April/116112.html03:04
hongbinlook forward to your vote on this proposal03:04
shubhamsGreat that we have a release03:04
hongbini saw qiming, pradeep and kevin already voted for it03:05
hongbinthanks for that03:05
mkraiI will vote too today03:05
shubhamsGood to see Feng in Core team .. I will cast my vote soon03:05
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hongbin3. No meeting next week due to OpenStack Summit03:05
hongbinthat is all from me03:05
hongbinany remark/announment from you?03:06
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hongbinseems no03:06
hongbin#topic Review Action Items03:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Review Action Items (Meeting topic: zun)"03:07
hongbin1. hongbin create a bp for floating ip association to containers03:07
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/floating-ip-association03:07
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hongbin2. hongbin create a bp to track the idea of labeling hosts03:07
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/label-compute-host03:07
hongbinthat conclude the review action items03:07
hongbinany comment on these?03:07
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hongbinseems no03:08
hongbinok, advance topic03:08
hongbin#topic Kuryr integration (hongbin)03:08
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hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/kuryr-integration The BP03:08
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hongbini marked this bp as implemented, and created another bp for the network api design03:08
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/network-rest-api03:09
hongbinfeel free to take it if anyone interest on it03:09
mkraiI will assign it to myself03:09
hongbinmkrai: ack03:09
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FengShengqinLast week , i met the bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/zun/+bug/168661703:10
openstackLaunchpad bug 1686617 in Zun "Auth plugin requires parameters which were not given: auth_url" [Undecided,New] - Assigned to <email address hidden> (feng-shengqin)03:10
hongbinmkrai: i am open for idea about the idea, a requirement from my side is i) to make it easy to use, ii) make it similar to nova03:11
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mkraihongbin: Ok I will create an etherpad for that03:11
mkraiI will start this after Boston summit03:11
hongbinmkrai: for ii), the rational is to make it orchestratable in a heat teamplate03:11
hongbinmkrai: after digging into the heat zun-plugin, i found that the resource will be more intuitive if it is similar to nova::server03:12
hongbinthat is my personal feeling03:12
hongbinmkrai: sure, thx03:12
mkraihongbin: Ok I will look into nova network API for more details03:12
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hongbinmkrai: ack03:12
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hongbinFengShengqin: do you have any comment about that bug?03:13
FengShengqinNo, i will try later03:13
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hongbinany other comment for this topic03:14
shubhamsnone from me03:15
hongbinok, next topic03:15
hongbin#topic Introduce container composition03:15
*** openstack changes topic to "Introduce container composition (Meeting topic: zun)"03:15
hongbin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/437759/03:15
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-container-composition The etherpad03:15
hongbinkevinz: want to drive this one?03:15
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kevinzkevinz: Yeah03:15
kevinzhongbin: Yeah03:15
kevinzI remember last week we discussed about the API03:16
kevinzwhich can be used in capsule and which is not03:16
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kevinzFrom the Line 142 to Line 169 are the container API and capsule API03:18
kevinzFeel free to give some comments on this03:18
hongbinok, all, want to cast your inputs into the etherpad now?03:18
hongbinin particular, in line #142 - #16903:19
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mkraiI was thinking can we have a new input to all container commands which take 'capsule' as input03:21
FengShengqinl#l142 list capsule-id , IMO, list  all  capsules , show  a capsule by its uuid03:21
mkraiwhich means zun list capsule1 will list all container in capsule103:21
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mkraisimilarly zun delete capsule1 container1 will delete container1 in capsule103:22
mkraijust my 2 cents ;)03:22
hongbinmkrai: i think we could add an option (i.e. zun list --capsule xxx) for that, however, the option needs to be optional03:22
kevinz+1 for hongbin03:23
mkraiyes i meant the same hongbin :)03:23
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mkraiand this could be done to all container APIs as well03:23
mkraihongbin: kevinz WDYT?03:23
hongbinFengShengqin: feel free to relay your inputs to the therpad03:23
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hongbinkevinz: as FengShengqin mentioned, list capsule should not take a id?03:24
kevinzmkrai: That's a good idea03:25
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kevinzFengShengqin:hongbin: Yes, UUID is a preferred one03:26
hongbinkevinz: i mean the capsule api, it is "list capsule-id"03:27
hongbinkevinz: however, capsule-id doesn't seem to make sence in list03:27
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kevinzhongbin: sure, you're right03:29
kevinzI will remove it03:29
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hongbinkevinz: thx03:31
hongbinseems we are well agreed on most of hte apis03:31
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mkraiWe have a clear picture now03:32
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hongbinkevinz: is any part of the api design that you want more clarification?03:33
kevinzhongbin: thx hongbin, I have one. For capsule delete, I think we should add the support for delete capsule with "special labels"03:34
kevinzFor example, Some capsules will be labeled as "web-server".03:35
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hongbini am not strong at this one, would like to consider opinions from others03:36
kevinzThey are doing the same functions, so delete with label can make the API more flexible03:36
Shunli-1 for delete by label03:36
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ShunliI think containers in capsule should delete all or none.03:36
Shunlishould not be deleted separately.03:36
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mkraikevinz: Will it delete all the containers in a capsule?03:37
FengShengqin+1  delete with label can make the API more flexible03:37
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kevinzShunli: Yeah, delete lables also means delete "all containers in one capsule"03:37
kevinzJust delete all the capsules which have the same labels. Not seperately delete special containers03:38
mkraikevinz: If so, I think I am ok to have it. Given that it deletes all the container in a capsule03:38
ShunliIf just use the lable to indentify the capsule. Then delete all or none containers in capsule. I'm +1 for delete by label.03:39
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hongbinok, seems we have an agreement on this as well03:39
kevinzmkrai: Shunli: Thx for that! as you say, this label is for identify the capsule03:39
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kevinzhongbin: Yes that's great03:40
hongbinone last thing, could you revisit the capsule api in the etherpad, inparticular, option #203:40
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hongbinneeds your opinion for 2.1, 2.2, and 2.303:41
mkraikevinz: It will be great if you can write the new capsule_id param to container APIs in etherpad also.03:41
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mkraihongbin: Do you mean to check the delete API?03:42
hongbinmkrai: the update api03:42
hongbinline #166 - #16803:42
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hongbinthe question is how to update a container in capsule03:43
hongbinthere are 3 options listed03:43
mkraiI vote for 2.303:43
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kevinzmkrai: you mean the capsule_id just occurs in API "list"?03:43
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kevinzmkrai: Maybe this is a typo, I'd like to choose the uuid instead, the same with containers03:44
hongbinok, i lean to 2.3 as well03:45
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mkraikevinz: Ex. zun list --capsule <id>, zun update --capsule <capsule> container03:46
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hongbinok, seems we agree on this one as well03:47
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hongbinkevinz: anything else you want to bring up about this topic?03:47
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kevinzhongbin: just consider the capsule id which mkrai referred03:48
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kevinzhongbin: besides this, that's all from me. Thx everyone for the kindly comments:-)03:49
hongbini lean to let capsule operation can take a name or uuid (similar to containers)03:49
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mkrai+1 for both name or uuid03:50
hongbinok, seems we agreed again03:51
hongbinall, any other remark on this topic?03:51
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mkraiNo that's all03:51
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hongbin#topic Open Discussion03:51
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hongbinNamrata: there?03:52
mkraiThanks kevinz for your hard work on this :)03:52
hongbinThanks kevinz03:52
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kevinzmkrai: hongbin: My pleasure :-)03:52
hongbinNamrata: want to give the team an update for your heat work ?03:52
NamrataI have seen the reviews I will update the patch03:52
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hongbinNamrata: thx03:53
hongbinNamrata: i like your patch, it improves a lot03:53
NamrataThanks and it needs improvement also03:53
Namratawill update the same03:53
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hongbinNamrata: look forward to your revision03:53
Namratayeah sure03:54
hongbinfor all, Namrata is working on the Heat integration feature, which is very cool03:54
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hongbinwith that, you could orchestrate zun container with any openstack resource in a heat template03:54
hongbini play with it, and like it a lot03:54
mkraiWe will try to include an example in Boston summit03:55
mkraiNamrata: will help me :)03:55
Namratamkrai : sure03:55
hongbinthanks Namrata03:56
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hongbinall, any other topic you want to bring it up?03:56
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hongbinseems no03:57
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hongbinall, thanks for joining the meeting03:57
hongbinremember there is no meeting next week03:57
hongbinsee you all the week after the next week03:58
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"03:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue May  2 03:58:07 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)03:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2017/zun.2017-05-02-03.00.html03:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2017/zun.2017-05-02-03.00.txt03:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2017/zun.2017-05-02-03.00.log.html03:58
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samPhi all for masakari...o/04:00
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samP#startmeeting masakari04:00
openstackMeeting started Tue May  2 04:00:35 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is samP. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.04:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.04:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'masakari'04:00
Dinesh_BhorHi all04:00
samPHi all..04:00
samPlets start..04:01
samP#topic Bugs04:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:01
samPany bugs or patches to discuss?04:01
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samPif not, then lets move to discussion04:02
samP#topic Boston Summit04:02
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samP#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Masakari-Boston-Summit04:02
samP^^ I wrote some important session in summit04:03
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sagarasamP: thanks04:04
samPplease add any other topics that you think may important to masakari04:04
samPLets have F2F meeting in summit. please write down your convenient time.04:05
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samPI will put other meeting schedules also in the above etherpad, such as meeting with opentsack-ha, or any others04:06
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samP#topic recovery method customization04:08
*** openstack changes topic to "recovery method customization (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:08
samPThank you Abhishek for BP04:09
tpatilLooks like he has not joined today's meeting04:09
samPtpatil: yep04:09
tpatilWe need to explain Adam why we are reinventing the wheel04:10
samPAnd also thanks for the spec.04:10
samPtpatil: sure, I will comment to spec and we can meet him in summit..04:11
tpatilBasically Masakari shouldn't depend on any external services. By default it should be able to execute workflow action on its own04:11
samPtpatil: agree04:11
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samPAnd I have pending work item to add more info to spec, which I will do soon before summit.04:13
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sagaraMe too, I need to write prevent from flapping spec.04:14
samPsagara: thanks04:14
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samP#topic Pike work Items04:15
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sagara#link Pike work items https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/masakari-pike-workitems04:16
samPsince, honjo-san is not here, lets have status sync on Boston summit04:16
samPHe will be there at summit04:17
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samPI will try to complete my specs before summit04:18
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samP#topic rpm packaging04:18
*** openstack changes topic to "rpm packaging (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:18
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sagaraI noticed 'Prevent from flapping' is in 'Spec less BP' to see link above.04:18
samPsagara: I thought it would not need a spec. However, if you feel that we need to discuss more about this, then please add a spec for it.04:19
sagarasamP: OK04:19
samPAdam is doing a great job with adding masakari, python-masakariclient, masakari-monitors to rpm packaging.04:20
samP#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/459879/04:21
samP#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/460239/04:21
samP#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/459344/04:21
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samPThis is one of the reasons why Im holding the tag 3.0.1 for masakari.04:21
tpatilsamP: ok, I got it04:22
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samPWe should propose same for deb packaging.. I will ask deb team after rpm added04:23
samPor we dont have to wait for merge rpm packaging. Things are proposed now and part of them are merged.04:24
samPI will ask anyway..04:24
samP#action samP Ask deb team to add masakari to deb packaging04:28
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samP#topic AOB04:28
*** openstack changes topic to "AOB (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:28
samPpretty fast...any other things to discuss?04:29
sagaranothing special04:29
tpatilsamP: nothing from my side04:29
Dinesh_Bhornothing from me too04:30
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samPThanks. OK then, if no other questions or discussions, lets finish the meeting here04:30
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samPCU all at Boston.04:31
tpatilsamP: Looking forward to meeting you there04:31
Dinesh_Bhoryes, thanks to all04:31
sagarameet in Boston, all!04:31
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samPhave a safe tip...04:31
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"04:32
openstackMeeting ended Tue May  2 04:32:08 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)04:32
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2017/masakari.2017-05-02-04.00.html04:32
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2017/masakari.2017-05-02-04.00.txt04:32
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2017/masakari.2017-05-02-04.00.log.html04:32
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efrieddavidsha Howdy!14:05
efriedYou expecting a meeting to be happening now?14:05
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davidshaefried: common classifier?14:05
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efrieddavidsha This channel has been silent for the past 9.5h, so...14:06
efrieddavidsha Ah, I see a ML note that the meeting is off today.14:07
davidshaefried: Ah, thanks!14:07
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davidshaefried: was just about to check, have a good day!14:07
efrieddavidsha http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-May/116177.html14:08
efriedAre you the David in question?  ;-)14:08
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davidshaefried: maybe...14:10
davidshaefried: I guess I can return to my annual leave then!14:10
davidshaefried: see ya!14:11
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chenying#startmeeting karbor15:08
openstackMeeting started Tue May  2 15:08:05 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is chenying. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:08
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:08
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: karbor)"15:08
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'karbor'15:08
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chenyingThere is no topic on the agenda right now. Do you have anything want to talk about - now is the time15:09
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:13
openstackMeeting ended Tue May  2 15:13:12 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:13
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/karbor/2017/karbor.2017-05-02-15.08.html15:13
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/karbor/2017/karbor.2017-05-02-15.08.txt15:13
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/karbor/2017/karbor.2017-05-02-15.08.log.html15:13
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ihrachys#startmeeting neutron_ci16:01
openstackMeeting started Tue May  2 16:01:14 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ihrachys. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_ci)"16:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_ci'16:01
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ihrachysjlibosva, seems like we are two huh ;)16:01
ihrachys#topic Action items from prev meeting16:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Action items from prev meeting (Meeting topic: neutron_ci)"16:01
* jlibosva ¯\_(ツ)_/¯16:01
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ihrachysfirst was "jlibosva to revise TESTING doc to update about test_install_flood_to_tun gate status with UCA used for Pike"16:02
ihrachysI think that happened16:02
jlibosvayep, I think so too16:02
ihrachysthis: https://review.openstack.org/45772216:02
ihrachysnext was "ihrachys to figure out why gerrit dashboard seems to not show some gate-failure fixes"16:03
ihrachysthat is a classic pebak16:03
ihrachysthe review dashboard hides patches that you reviewed, and since I reviewed most if not all of them when I was checking, I couldn't seem much there16:03
ihrachysnext was "ihrachys to report a bug for fullstack connectivity failures"16:04
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ihrachysinstead of that, jlibosva figured that was kernel ovs module not compiled after UCA switch16:04
ihrachysfixed in all branches, master fix: https://review.openstack.org/45859116:04
ihrachysI think the job still shows bad behaviour, but a different one; we will have a look later.16:05
ihrachysnext was "jlibosva to report a bug for scenario failures"16:05
ihrachysthe scenario jobs are close to 100% still16:05
ihrachysjlibosva, have you got a chance to look at those or report a bug?16:05
* jlibosva scratches his head16:05
jlibosvaI think I didn't16:05
jlibosvano, I don't see any bug reported by me, I somehow forgot16:06
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ihrachysok, np. will you have time for that?16:07
ihrachysor I can have a look16:07
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jlibosvait seems that vlan interface in trunk test can't get dhcp address16:08
clarkbcan you not stop compiling ovs if the version is newer in uca than what you need?16:08
ihrachysclarkb, for fullstack, we need 2.6.x16:08
ihrachysand it's 2.5.x in UCA16:08
jlibosvaI'm thinking about disabling port security for trunk tests16:08
clarkbihrachys: so the check for 2.5.1 was just buggy?16:08
ihrachyswe stopped compilation in functional since 2.5.x is enough there16:08
ihrachysclarkb, yeah16:09
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jlibosvaclarkb: ihrachys what? it worked, no?16:09
jlibosvaonce we got newer, we stopped compiling16:09
ihrachysjlibosva, whatever reflects actual usage of the api. but is it a must to have port sec disabled?16:09
clarkbjlibosva: right but you needed to continue compiling16:09
clarkbjlibosva: so the bug was in stopping compiling even though you needed to compile16:10
clarkbsounds like if the check was >=2.6 would be fine16:10
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jlibosvaihrachys: it is until I fix ovs fw which needs some ovs patches that currently doesn't work with dvr.16:10
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jlibosvaihrachys: so until then, I would be fine by disabling port-security16:10
ihrachysjlibosva, then let's reflect that with a caveal like a bug mentioned somewhere with TODO16:10
ihrachysyou think it will help?16:10
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jlibosvaclarkb: we have two kind of tests, functional and fullstack. For functional we needed 2.5.1 userspace and for fullstack, we still do compile kernel module16:11
jlibosvanot userspace anymore tho16:11
ihrachysclarkb, right, what jlibosva said, we also reduced the scope of compilation16:11
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jlibosvaihrachys: yep, we can enable once the firewall works for trunk use-case16:12
jlibosvaihrachys: but it wasn't 100% before16:12
ihrachysjlibosva, I smell you are going to post a patch?16:12
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jlibosvaso maybe it's not the firewall16:12
jlibosvaihrachys: I should, I have 4 days then I'm gone for 3 weeks :-/16:12
ihrachysjlibosva, oh I see. we may cancel next meetings till you are back.16:13
ihrachys#action jlibosva to post a patch to disable port sec for trunk scenarios16:13
jlibosvaihrachys: ack16:13
ihrachysif you don't, or it doesn't help much, I will have a look at the job next weke.16:13
ihrachysand thanks16:13
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ihrachysnext was "ihrachys to clean up gate-failure tagged bugs list"16:14
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ihrachysI did, closed some, dupped others...16:14
ihrachysnext was "ihrachys to look at what the functional spike yesterday was"16:14
ihrachysbut I did not because...16:14
ihrachysnext was "ihrachys to propose voting for functional job"16:14
ihrachysand jlibosva was kind to post the patch instead of me16:14
ihrachysand it's merged16:15
ihrachysso now functional is in both voting queue16:15
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ihrachyswhich is a huge progress I must say16:15
jlibosvaand yay to so far results, although I think we didn't have that many patches going in over weekend and bank holidays in some countries16:15
ihrachysand it seems like it's going smooth16:15
ihrachysok that's all AIs we had16:15
ihrachys#topic Grafana16:16
*** openstack changes topic to "Grafana (Meeting topic: neutron_ci)"16:16
ihrachys#link http://grafana.openstack.org/dashboard/db/neutron-failure-rate16:16
ihrachysseveral major issues there16:16
ihrachysone is api job going up, currently at 35% but I believe it's going to 100%16:16
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ihrachysyamamoto posted a fix: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/461661/16:16
ihrachysthat's related to keystone v2 disablement16:16
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ihrachysI am not sure about the fix proposed. seems like it just skips tests.16:17
ihrachysinstead of making it work in new environment16:17
ihrachysunless yamamoto gets back in next hours, I will have a look at reworking the patch so that it passes those test cases for v316:17
ihrachysthere is also rally job failure trend going up16:18
ihrachysfor basically same issue16:18
ihrachysthat should already be fixed with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/461686/16:18
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ihrachys(again yamamoto was rapid to tackle it)16:18
jlibosvamaybe we could merge the skip with todo to enable for v2 to unblock the gate?16:18
ihrachysjlibosva, that's possible, gotta make it Related-Bug I guess and add some todos16:19
ihrachysI will take care16:19
ihrachysand that's for grafana16:19
ihrachys#topic Python3 strategy16:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Python3 strategy (Meeting topic: neutron_ci)"16:19
ihrachysjlibosva, so, considering you are going offline this week, do we have anything at this point?16:20
jlibosvanope :( I suck16:20
ihrachysno you don't16:20
ihrachysthat's ok :)16:20
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ihrachysI guess it will be on me to get something ready16:20
ihrachysjlibosva, btw do you go to the summit?16:21
jlibosvaI'll be at the summit next week so I hope I'll talk to relevant people there16:21
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jlibosvaihrachys: yes :) so I won't be totally offline, I hope some work will be done from my side16:21
ihrachysok, cool. yeah. maybe talk to kevinbenton to understand what's the plan there, and who's going to take care.16:21
ihrachysI don't feel at this point I will have time for that in the end. but we'll see.16:22
ihrachysI mean, not actually implementing the thing. I can write up and rant ofc.16:22
ihrachys#action jlibosva to talk to higher summit beings on python3 gate strategy for Pike16:22
jlibosvaI think it should be somehow similar to what other projects do16:23
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ihrachyscould be worth checking what's the minimal we can do to tick it16:23
jlibosvaWe'll need to consider the amount of jobs we run and the fact that we might lose some of resources due to osic shutdown16:23
jlibosvaif we already haven't16:23
ihrachyscool, I believe in your ability to get to the bottom of it. we can sync later next week.16:24
ihrachys#topic Other patches on review16:24
*** openstack changes topic to "Other patches on review (Meeting topic: neutron_ci)"16:24
ihrachysthere is not much that I am aware16:24
ihrachysone thing is stable branches are currrently all failing because of the cinder breakage with lvm16:25
ihrachysthat is fixed in master16:25
ihrachysI requested backports here: https://review.openstack.org/#q,I4f40a1984fe828c8ff965033f7e25b1d7516ab1e,n,z16:25
ihrachysonce those are in, we should be able to recheck all failed patches16:25
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smcginnisihrachys: Hoping to have those approved shortly.16:26
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ihrachyssmcginnis, thanks for quick review16:26
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smcginnisihrachys: No problem16:26
ihrachysand that's about it I guess. I am not aware of any patches of particular interest.16:26
ihrachysok I guess that's it for the meeting. have fun on the summit. I will definitely cancel the next meeting, and probably two more unless someone shows a particular interest in having those.16:27
jlibosvaI have one update re fullstack16:27
ihrachys#action ihrachys to cancel next team meetings16:27
ihrachysjlibosva, shoot16:27
jlibosvaI spent some time looking at the trunk failure16:27
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ihrachys#topic Open discussion16:27
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: neutron_ci)"16:28
jlibosvaand I don't understand the root cause yet but basically when we remove a port from trunk bridge, (ovs-vsctl del-port) it removes the bridge itself16:28
jlibosvawhich sounds like an issue in ovs16:28
jlibosvathen later, agent thinks that trunk bridge was cleaned up and leaves patch ports on integration bridge behind16:28
jlibosvaI'm trying to create a minimal reproducer outside of fullstack tests to report bug to openvswitch if confirmed that's it's really the issue16:29
ihrachysdo we have a bug reported for that? would make sense to capture those details somewhere.16:29
jlibosvaa simple add-br, add-port and following del-port doesn't reproduce it16:29
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jlibosvano bug reported yet, I'll report one once I have the reproducer16:29
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ihrachysmay make sense to report one just for the sake of gate breakage tracking16:30
jlibosvaand that's about fullstack16:30
ihrachys#action jlibosva to report fullstack trunk failure bug once he has a reproducer16:30
jlibosvathe ovs bugs are reported to ovs-discuss mailing list :-/16:30
ihrachysjlibosva, oh. have a link handy for the ovs-discuss?16:31
jlibosvaso far I have this: http://paste.openstack.org/show/608616/16:31
jlibosvaihrachys: that's a ML but I haven't reported the bug there yet16:31
jlibosvaihrachys: ^^16:32
ihrachysah I misunderstood16:32
ihrachysthought you raised something to the ML16:32
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jlibosvaabout the paste - I'm able to reproduce by simple del-br ovs-vsctl command. So I need to figure out what the bridge needs to be removed by ovs.16:33
ihrachysyou mean by del-port16:33
jlibosvaah, no, I haven't yet. But I hope tomorrow I'll come up with reproducer script16:33
jlibosvayeah, del-port :)16:33
ihrachys:) otherwise it would make sense.16:33
ihrachysok sounds scary.16:33
ihrachyswonder if we use it correct.16:33
ihrachysthough nothing pops16:33
ihrachysok thanks for the update, really interesting.16:34
jlibosvathat's all from me16:34
ihrachysenjoy the rest of the hour, and summit, and PTOs, and lifed16:34
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"16:34
openstackMeeting ended Tue May  2 16:34:30 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:34
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ci/2017/neutron_ci.2017-05-02-16.01.html16:34
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ci/2017/neutron_ci.2017-05-02-16.01.txt16:34
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ci/2017/neutron_ci.2017-05-02-16.01.log.html16:34
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lbragstad#startmeeting keystone18:00
openstackMeeting started Tue May  2 18:00:02 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is lbragstad. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:00
lbragstadping antwash, ayoung, breton, cmurphy, dstanek, gagehugo, henrynash, hrybacki, knikolla, lamt, lbragstad, notmorgan, ravelar, rderose, rodrigods, samueldmq, spilla18:00
lbragstad#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting18:00
lbragstadagenda ^18:00
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lbragstadwe have a pretty light agenda today - so we'll give it a minute18:01
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dstanekthat's my favorite kind of agenda18:02
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edmondswwhat did I miss... no agenda for today?18:03
lbragstad#topic announcements18:03
*** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:03
lbragstadedmondsw https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting18:03
lbragstadedmondsw a very light one :)18:03
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lbragstadfirst up - I've made an addition to our core team18:04
lbragstad#info cmurphy is now keystone-core18:04
bretoncmurphy: congrats18:04
rodrigodscongrats cmurphy18:04
cmurphy:) yay18:04
lbragstadi feel that has been long over due - regardless18:04
lbragstadcmurphy thanks for all the quality code reviews and hard work18:05
cmurphyi will try not to break keystone too badly18:05
lbragstadwe won't be having a meeting next week18:06
lbragstadsince some will be at the forum18:06
lbragstadI'll send a reminder after the meeting today18:06
lbragstadwhich brings us to our next topic18:07
lbragstad#topic forum18:07
*** openstack changes topic to "forum (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:07
lbragstadis there anything folks need for the forum next week?18:07
lbragstadi'll be getting into boston sunday night and leaving on friday18:07
gagehugolbragstad good suggestions for food?18:07
lbragstadgagehugo clam chowder and lobster rolls18:08
edmondswI assume we hit up ayoung for food suggestions18:08
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lbragstadedmondsw ++18:08
lbragstadayoung took us to a few awesome places when we had the midcycle there a couple years ago18:08
gagehugooh nice18:08
dstanekcongrats cmurphy! you earned it18:08
cmurphyty dstanek18:09
bretonask dims, he knows things around there18:09
dimsvegetarian? :)18:09
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lbragstaddims I'm down ;)18:10
lbragstadif anyone needs anything prior to the forum, don't hesitate to ping me18:10
lbragstad#topic open discussion18:10
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:10
lbragstaddoes anyone have anything they'd like to talk about?18:11
bretonwhich specs are affected by recent layoffs?18:11
lbragstadwell - most of the policy in code and policy docs works was done18:12
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lbragstadi think there are only a few patches left to implement both of those18:12
lbragstadquota limits is still in the pipe18:12
lbragstadnot sure if anyone is able to pick that up though18:13
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lbragstadthe api keys spec is probably going to be affected18:13
lbragstad#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/450415/18:13
lbragstad#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/363765/18:13
lbragstadquotas ^18:13
lbragstadand limits^18:13
lbragstadactually, that's the wrong link18:14
lbragstad#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/455709/18:14
lbragstadquotas and limits ^18:14
lbragstadi think project tags is still on the roadmap18:16
* lbragstad #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/431785/18:16
gagehugoyeah ^18:16
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gagehugoI can take a look at api keys as well, I think I understand it from what was discussed at the PTG18:17
gagehugoIt's definitely a useful feature18:17
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lbragstadgagehugo cool - the limits stuff is also going to be a big one since i know nova was staging work for Queens based on us getting limits implemented in Pike18:17
gagehugolbragstad yeah limits is a hot topic18:18
lbragstadsdague has an initial interface defined for that work18:18
lbragstadbut we really need to review it18:18
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lbragstadi don't think the implementation should be too hard, its mostly designing the interface18:19
samueldmqhi, sorry I am late18:20
samueldmqcmurphy: congrats!18:21
lbragstadam i missing anything specs wise?18:21
lbragstadthis is probably a loaded question - but is anyone looking to pick up any of the affected specs (outside of gagehugo looking into api-keys)?18:23
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lbragstadI can make a point to refactor or update the affected specs in review after the Forum18:25
lbragstadi'm sure there is going to be talk about policy and limits at the Forum, and if that's an opportunity for us to get help then I'll leave it open18:25
lbragstadotherwise, our priorities will rescope a bit for Pike given the circumstances18:26
lbragstad#action lbragstad to update all specs after the forum with relevant discussions regarding updated Pike roadmap18:27
lbragstadanyone have anything else?18:27
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lbragstadcool - looks like we'll get some time back today18:28
lbragstadthanks for coming18:28
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:28
openstackMeeting ended Tue May  2 18:28:42 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:28
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2017/keystone.2017-05-02-18.00.html18:28
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2017/keystone.2017-05-02-18.00.txt18:28
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2017/keystone.2017-05-02-18.00.log.html18:28
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fungiinfra team, arise!19:00
fungithis week we have action items assigned to and topics proposed by fungi, pabelanger, clarkb, mordred19:00
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fungifungi seeking infra quorum... infra quorum come in19:03
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* fungi knows people are around, hopefully busily preparing for their summit talks19:03
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fungianybody know if mordred is on hand or still travelling? i have a topic on here he proposed, held over from last week19:05
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fungiwell, there's a few of us anyway. let's get started and hopefully a few others will wander in and catch up19:05
jeblairfungi: checking now19:05
fungi#startmeeting infra19:05
openstackMeeting started Tue May  2 19:05:48 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:05
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:05
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:05
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:05
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:05
fungi#topic Announcements19:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:06
jeblairfungi: mordred will arrive in a few mins19:06
fungi#info If you still haven't yet, let fungi know whether you hope to attend the PTG in Denver this September so he can get a rough head count19:06
fungithanks jeblair!19:06
fungias always, feel free to hit me up with announcements you want included in future meetings19:06
fungi#topic Actions from last meeting19:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:06
fungi#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2017/infra.2017-04-25-19.02.html19:06
fungifungi put forth proposal to flatten git namespaces19:06
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/461878 Goodbye Git Namespaces19:06
fungidon't all gasp in surprise at once now19:06
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fungimuch of it was lifted from the etherpad ttx started19:07
fungi#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/repo-name-shortening-impact Impact of shortening repository names19:07
fungiit's sort of a straw man, i have a feeling the eventual list of changes needed to be so daunting/scary as to put us off our lunch anyway19:07
fungii'm sure there's a ton of stuff i missed under the needed changes, so feel free to comment/update with whatever you think should be there19:07
fungipabelanger Open an Ubuntu SRU for bug 125149519:07
openstackbug 1251495 in mailman (Ubuntu Trusty) "Lists with topics enabled can throw unexpected keyword argument 'Delete' exception." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/125149519:07
fungiany luck?19:08
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pabelangeryes, I have an ubuntu xenial chroot running locally now. I did bubblewrap this morning, I can switch to mailman now19:08
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pabelangerI'll be in good shape for our next meeting I believe19:09
fungicool. well the (veritably ancient) action item was about requesting an sru from the package maintainers but i guess we could consider maintaining our own backport ppa of it instead19:09
clarkbI think an sru should be put in place regardless? seems like other people using trusty may want working mailman19:09
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pabelangeryes, I plan on pushing up the SRU first depending how slow, we could PPA it also19:10
fungiyeah, it's mostly (if i recall correctly) a matter of fillinh out a text template with the argument for wanting teh fix backported to an lts19:10
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* mordred waves19:10
pabelangeryes, I'm going to show up with backport in hand too19:10
pabelangerthat should help move along the SRU19:11
fungi#action pabelanger Open an Ubuntu SRU for bug 125149519:11
openstackbug 1251495 in mailman (Ubuntu Trusty) "Lists with topics enabled can throw unexpected keyword argument 'Delete' exception." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/125149519:11
mordred++ to ppa19:11
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fungiclarkb to add citycloud to nodepool19:11
mordredalso - sorry I reported that ppas were broken before ...19:11
clarkbStill waiting on them to tell us what region(s) to use19:11
clarkbalso how they want us to ramp up usage.19:11
clarkbfungi: do you know if they will be at summit? might be easiest to just have a conversation irl19:12
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fungii don't know, but wouldn't be surprised. i guess we can ask them19:12
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fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/458621 Update citycloud to non demo accounts19:12
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/458622 Add citycloud to nodepool19:12
jeblairclarkb: could just pick one and then they might respond.  :)19:12
clarkbthe accounts are configured and the passwords file is updated19:12
clarkbjeblair: they wanted to make sure we didn't go crazy and impact their customers so I was trying to avoid that19:13
fungiwell, we could pick one and set the quota to 10 and then let them know what we picked19:13
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fungithen they can check the impact at their leisure19:13
clarkbthats true we could start super small and do our best to avoid issues19:13
fungi#action clarkb to add citycloud to nodepool19:14
fungi#topic Specs approval19:14
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:14
clarkbI have a feeling that if we just sit down with them (maybe even over the phone) and have synchronous conversation we could work through ti quickly though19:14
openstackRemoving item from minutes: #topic Specs approval19:14
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fungiyeah, probably. maybe their op we've been e-mailing is in irc?19:14
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clarkbthats a good question. I'll send a followup email and ask about synchronous comms19:15
fungicool, thanks! anything else?19:15
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fungi#topic Specs approval19:15
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:15
fungiwe don't seem to have anything new up this week19:15
fungi#topic Priority Efforts19:15
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)"19:15
funginothing called out specifically here19:15
fungi#topic Move dib bugs to storyboard? (mordred)19:15
*** openstack changes topic to "Move dib bugs to storyboard? (mordred) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:15
fungithis was held over from last week19:16
fungi(we ran out of time if memory serves)19:16
mordredah - yes, this19:16
mordredit was mostly that I noticed that dib was still in launchpad for bugs19:16
fungitheir bug tracker is also quite active19:16
mordredI don't have a particular burning need to move/change anything19:16
fungi#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/diskimage-builder19:16
mordredbut figured I'd bring it up19:17
fungi64 open currently19:17
ianwyes, occasionally we purge it, hasn't happened for a while19:17
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fungimaybe we can start by reaching out to the diskimage-builder-core team and gauging their interest in migrating to sb now19:18
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mordredsounds like a good plan to me19:19
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fungiSpamapS, devananda, cinerama and greghaynes are in channel, though not sure how many of them are around at the moment19:19
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funginor how many of them are still active on dib19:19
fungiwe could take ianw's temperature on it now at least, i guess ;)19:20
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ianwis there an advantage other than being more infraish?19:20
fungidoes dib have a lot of cross-project bugs?19:21
ianwtbh i just see it as being a bit confusing for people who use launchpad for other things19:21
fungiright, infra switched to using sb mainly so we could dogfood it (and to try and encourage us to pitch in on making it better)19:21
ianwyes-ish ... bugs mostly come in from people using it in other contexts19:21
ianwbugs from infra usually come in via irc or reviews :)19:21
fungiright, i think that's been a bit of an faq/known issue (sb could stand to have a dedicated interface themed specifically for defect reporting)19:22
mtreinishianw: but could that be a symptom of being on storyboard?19:22
greghaynesfungi: yes, dib does tend to have a lot of cross project bugs19:24
fungianyway, i'm content for the dib contributors continue on lp for now if they want, no pressure on my part19:24
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fungiand having lots of cross-project bugs shared with, say, tripleo or other teams still using lp is plenty of reason to not move unless/until they also move19:25
greghaynesthat'd be my big concern, we get a lot of bugs from ironic, octavia, etc19:25
fungiyep, makes sense19:25
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fungianyway, since mordred raised the question, i'll leave it up to him to get wider feedback if he's still interested19:26
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ianwmtreinish: you mean that we don't file bugs in infra?  i dunno ... I think we just get straight to it and send up reviews generally, i don't recall ever needing much out-of-band discussion/investigation in bugs19:27
mtreinishianw: yeah, that's my argument people just assume there isn't a bug tracker because it's on storyboard. So they just push reviews and talk on irc19:27
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mtreinishbecause they don't have another mechanism19:27
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jeblairi don't like paperwork, no matter what color the paper is.19:27
ianwnot sure i count that as a problem :)19:28
mtreinishespecially if they've been working in the community for long enough from when storyboard didn't support email or paging...19:28
ianwas alan cox said at a LCA many years ago, quickest way to get something fixed is an obviously incorrect patch19:28
fungiwe mostly create stories for tracking tasks on our specs, and even that feels a little like something we never got around to leveraging most of the time19:28
fungi(zuulv3 being an obvious counterexample)19:29
fungianyway, this is drifting off-topic a bit and we have some other topics to cover in the remaining 30 minutes19:30
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fungidid anybody else have anything specific to the possibility of dib moving their bugs to storyboard before i move on?19:30
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ianwno, i think "sufficiently cross-project to say in lp" is good answer, atm19:31
fungithanks greghaynes and ianw for weighing in from the diskimage-builder-core seats!19:32
greghaynesanytime :)19:32
fungi#topic Skip next week's IRC meeting due to Summit? (fungi)19:32
*** openstack changes topic to "Skip next week's IRC meeting due to Summit? (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:32
fungimany of us are going to be at the summit/forum next week19:32
clarkbI think I may even be leading a forum session during this meetings scheduled runtime19:32
fungiincluding me19:32
fungiare there enough not attending the summit that someone wants to chair in my absence?19:33
jeblair++.  also, i will not be available the tuesday after either.19:33
fungii get home on the sunday after the summit, but skipping the next two meetings might still be a good idea19:33
funginot sure how much steam i'll have by tuesday19:33
clarkboh ya I will be in a plane the next tuesday19:34
jeblair(tuesday following is my summit return travel day)19:34
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pabelangerno objection for skipping19:34
mordred++ skip19:35
fungiokay, so seems there's some agreement for skipping the next two (may 9 and 16)?19:35
fungi#info The Infra team will not be holding a weekly IRC meeting for the next two weeks (skipping May 9 and 16) on account of there's a Summit afoot19:36
fungiany objections before i move on?19:36
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fungi#topic Import ancient LP archive of general ML (fungi)19:37
*** openstack changes topic to "Import ancient LP archive of general ML (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:37
fungi#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/lists.o.o-openstack-archive-import General "openstack" ML Launchpad Archive Import19:38
fungiafter some discussion last week wherein dhellmann was particularly interested in getting his hands on a copy of the ml posts from before we moved it off lp, i drafted the above plan19:38
* dhellmann perks up his ears19:38
fungii was originally going to propose having a brief mailman outage this week to put it into effect, and coordinating to make sure sufficient people are on hand to test so we know whether it worked or needs a rollback19:39
fungibut i'm not feeling it, what with talk/travel prep going on, and i have a feeling most of the rest of you are pretty distracted too19:39
jeblairi've looked that over and it seems reasonable, though i am not so completely versed in the archive scripts to provide an unconditional money-back guarantee.19:39
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fungiso maybe i'll round some people up later week after next once we're all rested up a little19:40
fungithanks for reviewing that, jeblair19:40
jeblairfungi: i'd be happy to help during either timeframe19:40
dhellmannfungi : I can definitely wait19:40
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dhellmannI do intend to start using the data once it's up, but I don't think there's a need to rush19:41
fungiwell, i'm flying out in two days and don't feel like doing it _from_ boston if i can help it ;)19:41
fungialso if anyone else has any input on it, feel free to update the etherpad i linked19:41
clarkbI definitely defer mail related things to those that know better19:42
clarkbbut am happy to help out week after next19:42
fungicool, seems like we can probably make that happen pretty comfortably19:42
pabelangersame, happy to help where I can19:42
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fungi#link Zuulv3 git repo for opentack-infra jobs (pabelanger)19:42
openstackRemoving item from minutes: #link Zuulv319:42
fungiwrong tag ;)19:42
fungi#topic Zuulv3 git repo for opentack-infra jobs (pabelanger)19:42
*** openstack changes topic to "Zuulv3 git repo for opentack-infra jobs (pabelanger) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:42
fungiyou're up19:42
fungisomething something config projects, something something untursted repo19:43
clarkbalso is the dest path for the zcat correct? its openstack.mbox/openstack.mbox?19:43
pabelangerSo, this came up today in #zuul. I think we might be ready to discuss a new repo we'd use for zuulv3 jobs.19:43
fungiclarkb: yep, strange i know19:43
clarkboh sorry we switched topics,19:43
pabelangertoday, project-config is considered a config-project, but we don't have untrusted-project repo for our jobs yet19:43
jeblairmordred, SpamapS: ^ topic-of-interest courtesy ping19:43
pabelangermaybe something like openstack-zuul-jobs is where out openstack-infra jobs would like, like tox for example19:44
pabelangerthis is outside of the stdlib we are thinking of creating in zuul19:44
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clarkband the reason they wouldn't live in project-config is so that changes to them could be self testing?19:44
jeblairto (maybe) clarify: a config-project is especially trusted by zuul, and as such, does not recognize dynamic configuration19:45
jeblairclarkb: exactly ^19:45
pabelangeryes, thanks you19:45
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pabelangerit is also nice to have dynamic configuration, it allows for fast iteration of jobs19:45
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fungiwhat sorts of jobs do you expect would be defined there? our puppet integration testing maybe?19:46
jeblairso we're probably going to want to put things like "publish to pypi" in config-projects.  we could put as much other stuff as we want there as well, but we may find it more fun to put more job definitions in regular untrusted projects to increase the amount of self-testing available to them.19:46
pabelangerfor example, I would like to move http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/zuul/tree/playbooks/tox?h=feature/zuulv3 into this new repo. These are tox jobs specific to openstack-infra today19:46
fungiand you wouldn't want them in the zuul repo since that's what they're testing?19:46
jeblairpabelanger: by specific to 'openstack-infra' you mean 'specific to the zuul instance run by openstack-infra for the openstack project' yeah?19:47
jeblairpabelanger: (as opposed to, specific to openstack-infra repos like zuul or nodepool or gear or ...)19:47
pabelangeryes, we our tox jobs today in feature/zuulv3 still depend on our jenkins slave scripts19:47
pabelangerright, zuul instance run by openstack-infra19:48
fungiso you're talking about a common repo for the infra team's integration tests for their deliverables19:48
pabelangercommon repo for all our openstack project integration tests19:48
jeblairs/integration// ?19:48
fungiobviously (maybe not obviously?) if a job is specific to testing changes for, say, the bindep tool then we'd put the job definitions for that in the bindep repo19:48
pabelangerjeblair: yes19:49
jeblairfungi: that seems obvious to me, yes.19:49
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clarkbbasically this would be a place for py27 job to live as well as pep8/linters etc. They are common across much of what we run but aren't necessarily integration tests either19:49
fungiokay, so the common repo pabelanger is talking about then would be broader than just infra team deliverable integration tests, like say devstack-gate stuff?19:49
clarkband yes eventually devstack-gate I imagine19:50
fungipy27 and linters wouldn't just be in teh stdlib?19:50
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jeblairfungi: i'd avoid d-g as an example since i think d-g stuff can probably live in d-g.19:50
clarkbfungi: no, I think people feel like the way we run tox is too openstacky19:50
fungiokay, fair enough19:50
clarkbbecause we do things to make tox suckless19:50
pabelangerfungi: maybe? but today they depend on /usr/local/jenkins scripts19:50
fungiright, got it. we don't just run tox19:51
clarkb(which assume either nose or testr for example)19:51
jeblairmy guess as to how that will play out: zuul.stdlib has a tox role and a tox job.  but we only use the tox role.  we use it inside of a custom openstack tox job which does all the other openstacky stuff.  that job will go in the repo pabelanger is proposing.19:52
jeblair(that's just one of many possibilities, but it's the assumption i'm currently working from)19:52
jeblair(subject to change :)19:52
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fungiyeah, i guess run_tox.sh has grown far beyond the handful of lines i remember it being long ago19:52
fungiokay, my confusion is dispelled now19:53
pabelangersounds like people are generate okay with the idea then?19:53
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fungii'm in favor of trying whatever sounds sensible until we collect enough data that convinces us we should do something different19:53
jeblairmaybe, just maybe, we find that those are all sensible things for all tox users to be doing, and we can just use the zuul.stdlib job.  even if that's the case, i'm certain we'll have more 'openstack-wide general job definitions' that should go in that repo.19:54
fungithis seems fine to me19:54
pabelangerokay, I'll propose a patch for openstack-zuul-jobs then19:55
fungiso openstack-zuul-jobs or openstack-zuul-roles would be our "extended library" of roles other job could build on19:55
pabelangeryes, that sounds right19:55
pabelangerI think it could also be a staging area before we moved something into zuul.stdlib too19:56
fungiand act as the catch-all for whenever someone needs some shared mechanism in jobs used by multiple repos and doesn't already have a better place to put it19:56
jeblaira note on naming: it's tempting to call these 'zuul-jobs', but since we're in the position of hosting not only our own instance of zuul, but also zuul itself, i think it's better to reserve '^zuul-.*' names for future zuul-related repos (like the stdlib)19:56
* fungi just fell into the bikeshed trap19:57
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jeblairi meant that in support of 'openstack-zuul-jobs'.  but i'm not opposed to openstack-ci-jobs if folks don't like it.19:57
fungiputting the panitbrush down and backing away slowly19:57
jeblairnot sure i've ever seen fungi holding a paintbrush19:57
* clarkb still thinks all painting can be avoided with uuids19:57
pabelanger+1 for openstack-zuul-jobs19:57
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clarkbwe'll of course need a uuid tracker wallet thing19:58
fungijeblair: i just finished removing wallpaper from our master bath. paintbrush is next :/19:58
jeblairclarkb: '/nick 09a34680' is the command you're looking for19:58
clarkbjeblair: yes exactly, but need that wallet first19:58
fungipabelanger: go forth and repo19:59
clarkbwhat nick does fungi have again?19:59
fungi#topic Open discussion19:59
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)"19:59
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fungias mentioned earlier, i'll be travelling starting thursday (may 4) for the summit19:59
clarkbI'm on a plane early friday19:59
fungitaking a couple days to visit friends so don't expect to be around much19:59
clarkbso effectively tomorrow is my last day work working I think20:00
fungianyway, we're officially holding up the tc meeting now. thanks everyone!20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue May  2 20:00:23 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2017/infra.2017-05-02-19.05.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2017/infra.2017-05-02-19.05.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2017/infra.2017-05-02-19.05.log.html20:00
ttxknock knock, is this on20:00
mriedemhasn't started yet20:00
ttxcdent, dims, flaper87, johnthetubaguy, mordred, stevemar: around ?20:00
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ttx#startmeeting tc20:01
openstackMeeting started Tue May  2 20:01:08 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:01
* edleafe sips tea20:01
ttxHi everyone!20:01
smcginnisWelcome back.20:01
ttxThanks to dhellmann for chairing the meeting last week, and welcome to our new members20:01
ttxOur agenda for today is at:20:01
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:01
ttxRemember that you can all use #info #idea and #link to help build a more readable summary20:01
ttx#topic Elect chair20:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Elect chair (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
ttxLooks like we only have one candidate, and he has the necessary votes20:02
flaper87ship it!20:02
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/45877420:02
ttxSo I'll approve that person now20:02
flaper87ttx: thanks for taking this role on (again)20:02
ttxThanks for your continued trust, lots of work ahead20:02
dims++ thanks ttx20:02
ttx#topic Drop Technical Committee meetings20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Drop Technical Committee meetings (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
ttxAfter the short discussion at the last meeting, flaper87 posted:20:02
flaper87ship it (jk)20:02
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/45984820:02
ttxflaper87: care to introduce it ?20:02
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flaper87so, as mentioned briefly last week20:03
flaper87the goal is to drop the TC meeting entirely and encourage discussion, voting and decisions to happen asynchronously20:03
flaper87The existing format adds difficulties for some members of the community20:03
flaper87It's not horribly worng but I do believe we can do better20:03
ttxAs an example, it feels like most of the discussions from today were not stuck, and could have iterated through reviews alright20:04
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ttxSo I personally think it's worth a try.20:04
flaper87As explained in the review, there's space for synchronous discussions when really needed and undercertain circumstances20:04
flaper87but they are not as needed nowadays as they were in the past20:04
EmilienMI agree with ttx, I like the idea20:04
cdentI think it is worth a try but we really need to make sure we implement office hours and the other "make sure people know how to find us" strategies20:04
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flaper87WE've adopted tools that allow for more aync work20:04
dtroyerI think we should consider making f2f meetings at summit/ptg a bit more formalized, ala the current thread20:04
ttxI fear that without the weekly rhythm we might get less done, but I'm fine trying it and revisiting20:04
dimsttx : has it worked in the SWG?20:04
sdagueso, I guess the question I have is just trying to figure out which issue we are trying to address?20:05
smcginnisI actually hate to see it go, but as ttx broke it out into the goals and how they will still be addressed, I'm willing to give it a shot.20:05
flaper87Yes, office hours is a big part of this20:05
ttxdims: not at all20:05
dhellmannis there any reason we can't change the voting rules without dropping the meetings, so we have some feedback mechanism?20:05
ttxdims: but we did not push a weekly summary20:05
flaper87sdague: erm, I tried to be explicit about that on the review but I can elaborate more and update the review20:05
flaper87There are several, really20:05
dhellmannbecause I think just throwing the meeting out without ensuring that we're still productive isn't going to do us any good20:05
sdaguebecause, if the concern is the meeting is hard to follow so people can't participate, removing the meeting doesn't really make that better20:05
flaper87There's an issue with the timinig20:05
flaper87there's issue with participation for non-native english speakers20:05
dimsif we have adhoc meetings, is it not more difficult for folks to follow?20:05
ttxsdague: there is the issue that it's excluding all people from APAC20:06
flaper87sdague: that's not the only concern20:06
ttxand that any other time will just be a pain20:06
smcginnisdims: ++ one of my concerns20:06
flaper87(as mentioned in the review)20:06
sdaguettx: sure, that is a completely fair point20:06
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sdaguebut it's a different point than "the meetings are hard to follow" which has been a chunk of the feedback20:06
dhellmannI don't object to dropping the meetings eventually. I object to throwing them out without sufficient planning to ensure that this group still functions well.20:06
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EmilienMAPAC and EMEA (how many people can stay on a computer at 10pm here?)20:06
dims++ dhellmann20:06
sdaguedhellmann: yeh, for sure20:07
dhellmannso let's work on our discussion and voting rules, and prove that we can actually do the work in the way this proposal wants20:07
funginoting ways in which this proposal differs somewhat from the way the swg went "meetingless" i'm still suspicious we'll find we communicate less once we do20:07
ttxdhellmann: I don't think the suggestion is to drop them without providing anything to replace them20:07
edleafeRemoving meetings will also make it more difficult for those not on the TC to participate20:07
sdagueI would personally rather see us phase in what we think are the right other proposals20:07
flaper87Can we start with a transition plan and reduce the meetings to be every other week for now ?20:07
dimsEmilienM : then we should find a slot say 6-7 hours behind what we have now, no?20:07
flaper87that should give us some time to "try" this20:07
sdagueand we'll know if they are working if the meeting ends after 15 minutes20:07
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dhellmannttx: how do you see things working? because "someone is going to send an email" isn't really enough, imho20:08
ttxdhellmann: an intermediary proposals would be to introduce the whole weekly reminder / expectation of iteration through reviews, and keep the meeting as optional for any needed discussion when needed20:08
EmilienMdims: we would probably loose PST folks. I don't think there is a perfect meeting time20:08
fungii agree with sdague that we should step up the alternatives before winding down the current scheduled meetings20:08
Rockygdhellmann ++20:08
dims++ fungi20:08
flaper87sdague: TBH, sometimes the meetings have content because ttx takes the time to also go and dig stuff that would fill the hour. (ttx keep me honest)20:08
sdagueflaper87: ok, then lets stop doing that20:08
smcginnisSeems like a simpler thing would be to start with alternating meeting times so all regions at least get a decent time every other week.20:08
sdaguethat's a pretty concrete thing we could stop20:09
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flaper87sdague: sure but that doesn't solve the problem with the time20:09
sdagueflaper87: it does not20:09
dhellmannyeah, I think there are smaller steps we could take that would be easier to reverse and less catastrophic if they don't work20:09
sdaguebut, lets separate the concerns20:09
ttxsmcginnis: that just spreads the misery, not the success20:09
flaper87so, I want to solve that too20:09
dhellmannflaper87 : I do too. Let's work toward it in steps.20:09
smcginnisttx: Or makes the misery come in alternating waves.20:09
sdaguebecause I think there is a long term concern, the meeting does put geographies in a disadvantage20:09
sdaguethat's a really thing, we should work towards fixing it20:09
sdaguebut I think that's step 520:10
fungii've also not seen good examples of alternating meeting times working out effectively (they seem to either end up with one meeting slot nobody attends or they bifurcate into two groups of people who don't cross-pollinate discussions and end up duplicating work)20:10
ttxsmcginnis: the current time is the only one that makes it /possible/ for all current members to atgtend it. Any alternate time would not only exclude a part of the world from attending, but also some TC members20:10
cdentIs johnthetubaguy here? Because he's a big driver on this topic because he ... doesn't want to be here, now.20:10
sdagueand a big thing is to figure out why every meeting runs until the top of the hour, and tends to want to spill over20:10
sdagueand how we stop that naturally happening20:10
smcginnisttx: Fair point. It definitely would not solve all the concerns here.20:10
dimsagree sdague20:10
dhellmanncdent : I'm not sure I buy "I don't want to go to meetings" as a reason to make this change. "I cannot" definitely is.20:11
cdentgood point sdague. I reckon that's because we don't talk enough, but perhaps that talking doesn't need to be in meetings, but can be in email?20:11
sdaguecdent: perhaps it could be, and perhaps we should try that20:11
sdaguebut we can try that without getting rid of this bit as well20:11
cdentdhellmann: I'm not saying I support that one way or another, just reminding of one of the reasons why it happening. Since I'm in the same timezone as John, I can certainly sympathize20:11
flaper87I'd personally be opposed to alternating times. I've tried those in different teams and they didn't work well. I think it's even more confusing20:12
dhellmanncdent : I sympathize, too. your tz is definitely getting close to "cannot" as a reason20:12
dimscdent : since we have new tc members, we should start by trying find a better time for everyone currently in TC20:12
ttxI think meetings provide three things, as I commented on the review20:12
ttxweekly reminder, heated discussions, and an opportunity for reaching out / chat20:12
ttxThe weekly report could replace the first part20:12
dimsif we do that consistently, that would help with timing i think20:12
ttxbut we could in a step 1 keep the weekly meeting (skipping it more often) to cover the tother two20:12
dhellmannif we're going to take the step, I'd like for one agenda item to be "how well are we doing at eliminating the need for this meeting"20:13
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ttxi.e. post a weekly progress email, and only have the weekly meeting if there are stuck things to unblock20:13
fungias for the "office hours" idea, i'd happily set a reminder for myself covering an americas slot, an emea slot and an apac slot and then make a point of keeping an eye on #openstack-dev (or wherever we decide) for the duration as long as i'm around (and make a point to avoid scheduling myself for conflicting obligations when possible)20:13
sdaguedhellmann: ++20:13
dhellmannand when that's the only thing on the agenda, I'm not sure that's a reason to skip that week20:13
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dhellmannbecause maybe it means no one reviewed anything :-)20:14
dhellmannwe've talked about this topic in person, but really I expected more discussion before we went ahead with anything20:14
flaper87I mentioned earlier that we could start by having the meeting every other week20:14
flaper87that sounds also like a good experiment20:14
jeblairfungi: (a phrase people can set as an irc highlight would be useful for ad-hoc openstack-dev conversations)20:14
dhellmannflaper87 : I do not want to change the meetings at all, to start. We need the feedback loop.20:14
smcginnisflaper87: Ah, so not alternating times, but just skip every other week?20:15
fungijeblair: indeed! like we do for i n f r a - r o o t20:15
lbragstadjeblair that's a good idea20:15
dhellmannthis group can mostly manage to be here, and we need to communicate about this change20:15
sdaguedhellmann: right, I think the point is to evolve us away from this20:15
flaper87sdague: yes20:16
ttxdo you see any reason why we could not have reached the same conclusion using the review as a medium ? Or some people just do not like to post -1s ahead of the meeting ?20:16
sdagueand maybe part of it is really to challenge the agenda more often when ttx sends it out20:16
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ttxi.e. was the meeting necessary to make progress on this particular discussion ?20:16
flaper87ttx: fwiw, I don't think it was. Some folks did read and posted comments on the review.20:16
dhellmannttx: one of the things we're going to have to change is our own habits on reviewing those proposals20:16
fungii tend to defer my governance votes until the meeting because points are often made during the meeting which influence my eventual choice20:17
ttxdhellmann: right, and that can be done before we drop the meeting, I agree20:17
dhellmannbut, for example, I did post these concerns and no one responded20:17
ttxthe meeting is just like a quick cycle of reviews20:17
dhellmannso if this was my chance to be heard, I don't want to lose that20:17
flaper87fungi: I've changed my votes on gerrit after reading other folk's comments and views20:17
cdenthonestly, gerrit is shitty conversational medium20:17
ttxit just makes it a lot harder for anyone following the discussion20:17
fungihappy to adjust reviewing habits to accommodate a more asynch pattern there20:17
sdaguecdent: ++20:17
dhellmanncdent : ++20:17
sdaguegerrit is really good once you are close to concensus to work out the kinks20:18
dimswe'll all definitely switch the way we work when we drop meetings and/or ttx stops sending detailed agenda20:18
flaper87cdent: it is but then there's also email20:18
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sdagueit's definitely not a concensus builder20:18
flaper87which would increase visibility also in the TC activities20:18
cdentyes, I've been saying all along we need ot use email a lot more20:18
dhellmannyeah, I think we should move this discussion to email, not gerrit20:18
ttxdims: I would still post the status of progress on proposals and priority reviews, which would end up looking a lot like the meeting agenda20:18
sdagueok, so, follow on, why wasn't this a TC mailing list thread :)20:18
dhellmannbut that's an example of the sort of thing that it may have taken us ages to work out if we were trying to do it on a gerrit review20:18
fungitaking things off the meeting agenda if they're already represented by a governance change could work as a step20:19
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ttxsdague: I don't know, I wasn't around last week :)20:19
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flaper87sdague: there was one, before the voting, then last week it was proposed but there was not enough time to discuss it. Also, anyone can start the thread if discussion over email is required ;)20:19
flaper87before the TC election*20:19
jeblairi think we're better at achieving consensus synchronously; with the async mechanisms (email/gerrit) we're often better at exposing many diverse viewpoints, but we're not always great at converging to consensus there.20:19
sdagueanyway, so, action... discuss on TC mailing list?20:19
dhellmannjeblair : that's a good way to put it20:20
flaper87sdague: no no, -dev mailing list, not TC20:20
dhellmannneatly frames some of my concerns20:20
ttxand next week in person, likely20:20
sdaguejeblair: that's definitely true20:20
* flaper87 thinks20:20
sdagueflaper87: or that20:20
cdentjeblair: that's true, but I think it is unfair to people who can't attend the meeting. We need to work harder in email.20:20
ttxflaper87: it's somewhere between TC minutia (-tc list) and community change (-dev list)20:20
smcginnisI guess one thing that also helps is the TC can all meet face to face at least every three months for larger discussion needs.20:20
jeblaircdent: yep.  and i say that not to say it's not possible.  it's worth trying to improve.  :)20:20
lbragstadmoving to email also helps slow the pace of the conversation for non-english speakers20:20
dimslbragstad : ++20:21
fungiperhaps if we had some agreement on how to tell when an e-mail thread has reached consensus or needs to wait for more input ;)20:21
dimsfungi : AI :)20:21
dhellmannsmcginnis : we've mostly not taken advantage of that in the past, in any formal sense20:21
flaper87lbragstad: one of the reasons why I also think we should get rid of the meeting entirely20:21
fungimaybe we set time limits for feedback on proposals?20:21
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sdaguefungi: that just needs a shephard on the conversation20:21
dhellmannlbragstad : although I've had non-native readers also complain to me about having to read a lot of prose (like our vision statement)20:21
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sdaguewe've had threads that worked well before when someone responds every 3 - 5 days with "this seems to be where we are"20:22
fungiokay, so we need designated shepherds for each thread, or maybe the chair is the poor sucker stuck shepherding them all?20:22
sdagueand you reroot the thread20:22
cdentsdague++ yeah that's the formal technique for such things20:22
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ttxok so action is.. a bit early for a proposal, next step is to push a ML thread about it; and discuss it in person next week20:23
lbragstaddhellmann that's also a good point - is there a lesser of two evils there?20:23
dhellmannlbragstad : write concisely20:23
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dimsML thread on -tc list ttx ?20:23
cdentdefault to -dev20:23
* flaper87 prefers -dev20:23
dimsy just checking to make sure20:23
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ttxdims: see my above answer, could be any, in doubt I would pick -dev20:23
fungiis te concern that not enough people subscribe to the -tc ml? or the moderator load?20:24
ttx#info a bit early for a proposal. Next step: push a ML tread, and discuss it in person next week20:24
sdague-dev is totally fine, as long as we get a commit from all the TC members to actually be reading it20:24
ttxWho is up to push the thread ?20:24
sdagueI know that's been an issue in the past20:24
flaper87ttx: I'll do it20:24
dhellmannfungi : both?20:24
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flaper87fungi: fwiw, -dev is like using this channel20:24
dimssdague : and reply at least once per thread :)20:24
ttx#action flaper87 to start another -dev thread about this20:24
flaper87anyone can join, anyone can comment20:24
flaper87no need for mod20:24
ttxOK, let's move on20:24
sdague++ move on20:25
ttx#topic Do not make decisions using synchronous communication20:25
*** openstack changes topic to "Do not make decisions using synchronous communication (Meeting topic: tc)"20:25
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/46094620:25
fungithis seems related20:25
ttxjohnthetubaguy is not around to talk about it20:25
ttxHe just W-1 it and will work on a "principle" version of it20:25
dhellmannthis feels like step 120:25
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ttxdhellmann: what do you mean ?20:25
dhellmannto the process of dropping meetings20:26
ttxah, ok20:26
ttxI thought step1 would be to be present to support it20:26
dhellmannwell, yeah, I meant of the actual implementation20:26
sdagueso... how many times in the last cycle did we make decisions synchronously?20:26
sdaguelike how many #vote instances did we really have?20:26
ttxI would say a couple of times20:27
dhellmannwe use gerrit a lot in meeting, but I only remember one #vote case in the last year20:27
sdagueI'm all for this one, but it would be good to at least quantify what we are eliminating20:27
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flaper87but also we wait on meetings to rubber stamp reviews.20:27
dhellmannand now I can't even remember what that was20:27
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cdentit's the "waiting for the meeting to rubber stamp" which I think is the real issue20:27
dimsguess this is not just for tc, but for everyone in the community.20:27
flaper87That, sometimes, feels like we're not using the tool properly. I understand the motivation20:27
sdaguedhellmann: but, every gerrit review that gets decided on has been out there for > 1 week right?20:27
dhellmannyeah, the idea was never that we'd wait for meetings to vote20:28
dhellmannsdague : often without sufficient votes to proceed, but yeah20:28
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* ttx looks up 2017 meetings real quick20:28
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rocky_g_I like the way the api-wg does the reviews and voting20:28
sdagueso is this really that there should be a waiting period after sufficient votes are gathered?20:28
ttx"Driver teams: establish new "driver team" concept, or not"20:28
ttx"Glance: Changing response status code. What's the best path forward?"20:29
cdentrocky_g_:  me to20:29
fungiseems like, similar to the last topic, letting more involved proposals get approved when they reach quorum+consensus could address a good chunk of the need for asynchronicity?20:29
sdagueso, could we add that as a detail20:29
dhellmannsdague : well, I read it as "do not make decisions on irc or in person" and I'm not sure I agree with all of that sentiment, but I do understand it20:29
ttxso twice in the last 4 months20:29
sdaguetry to avoid #vote in meeting, and all gerrit reviews should wait 3 days between reaching sufficient votes and being approved?20:30
fungirocky_g_: cdent: can you elaborate?20:30
jeblairttx: the first instance at least was not exclusive with gerrit voting -- just used to help gauge consensus iirc.  i don't recall the second.20:30
cdentreview internal, freeze for public review (with email announcements), publish a week later20:30
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rocky_g_cdent much better than mine woulda been20:31
fungicdent: thanks, that sounds sensible to me at least20:31
ttxjeblair: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-02-14-20.01.log.html#l-9320:31
notmynamettx: is this "no voting" proposal for the TC decisions or one that is to apply to every openstack group?20:31
cdentfungi: to me the good part is the visibility and regular announcements20:31
flaper87notmyname: TC20:31
ttxnotmyname: not sure... If it's set as a principle that would affect everyone I guess20:31
notmynameflaper87: ah, ok. that wasn't clear from the gerrit proposal20:32
notmynameoh. flaper87 and ttx don't agree on that :-)20:32
sdagueI also want to be careful with "don't make decisions in synchronous fashion" because the real concern is the exclusion not the decision process right? Especially when we know decisions impact folks not in the room.20:32
cdentnotmyname: this is not your first rodeo?20:32
flaper87notmyname: yeah, I believe it came out from my proposal to drop the meeting20:32
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dhellmannflaper87 : then it needs to be documented in our voting rules, not as a principle20:32
fungiobviously if it applies to all of the technical community, then it also applies to the tc (and we should be the first to take it on and prove that it's working for us before we expect anyone else to do the same)20:33
flaper87dhellmann: sure20:33
cdentI think the intent is principle, because it comes out of the SWG's thinking about increasing diverse participation for everyone, throughout the community, yeah?20:33
ttxflaper87: I think it came out as a consequence (like dhellmann said, feels like first step) but then it feels like johnthetubaguy wants it to be a general principle to guarantee inclusion20:33
rocky_g_fungi: ++20:33
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flaper87what about we just ask johnthetubaguy to send an email about this so we can discuss the idea there?20:33
ttxAlso, it'd difficult to reconcile with "the PTL ultimately decides if need be"20:33
flaper87ttx: ^20:33
dims++ flaper8720:34
ttxa single-person decision is obviously synchronous20:34
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fungi(and exclusive!)20:34
flaper87it doesn't make sense for us to keep guessing on what the direction of the proposal actually is20:34
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cdentflaper87, ha, yes20:34
ttxyeah, let's not waste to much effort guessing here20:35
fungithough it _is_ an effective way to fill up an hour ;)20:35
ttxBut as much as I like the intent, it's difficult to make it a hard rule I think20:35
dimslet's paint it blue20:35
flaper87(just as an example, some of these questions could be asked on the review and/or a proposal to start a new mailing list thread could be made there: This is not a complain but a highlight of how we can change the way we interact to allow for meetings to be dropped)20:35
smcginnisdims: :)20:35
ttx#info waiting for johnthetubaguy to precise if it's meant as a general rule or just for the TC20:35
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ttxLet's move on to the next topic20:36
ttx#topic Change the target for this goal to uWSGI not Apache mod_wsgi20:36
*** openstack changes topic to "Change the target for this goal to uWSGI not Apache mod_wsgi (Meeting topic: tc)"20:36
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/46095120:36
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ttxsdague: care to introduce this one ?20:36
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sdaguesure, basically when that goal was proposed I suggested we not do it on mod_wsgi, because of technical shortcomings20:37
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sdagueit moved forward because no one else signed up to get us over to uwsgi first20:37
sdagueI moved all the infrastructure over to uwsgi last month, which is now the default gate mode20:37
sdaguewe should really be doing that instead20:37
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dimsyay, thanks sdague20:37
ttxSo the main issue here is that we would change the definition of a goal in the middle of the implementation of it, setting a bad precedent20:37
ttxBut then it feels like it's more of a clarification of how the goal shall be reached, than a "change", so this is probably OK.20:38
smcginnisI don't think there has been too much progress there, so now would be the time to switch.20:38
cdentI raised that objection, but I actually think in this case it is not a big deal at all20:38
dhellmannyeah, I don't have a problem with changing the goal, I just want the text to reflect the change (not just the git history)20:38
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ttxDoes it mean avery goal definition should include clear(er) instructions on how to reach it, to avoid such a situation in the future ?20:38
sdaguedhellmann: sure, I can update it accordingly post meeting20:38
sdaguettx: well, we should consider some of the downsides of approach20:39
dhellmannttx: we knew this one might change when we wrote it (hence the hedging about "that's what devstack uses now")20:39
sdagueI do remember bringing those up20:39
EmilienMsmcginnis: we have a bunch of projects working on it, I think some progress has been made, no?20:39
sdagueyeh, that's why that hedge is there20:39
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sdagueit's actually a ton easier to do it with this new way20:39
smcginnisEmilienM: Some, but I didn't get the impression it was being done with much urgency and there hasn't been many done making the switch.20:40
mriedemsmcginnis: cdent basically has it done for nova20:40
mriedemso there!20:40
sdagueok, so general agreement on this, just put the historical bits in there?20:40
smcginnismriedem: Oh good, one I can copy for cinder.20:40
ttxsdague: good for me20:40
sdaguemriedem: sure, but he's done it on the new way :)20:40
cdentsmcginnis: another example is placement20:40
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ttx#info general agreement on this, just put the historical bits in20:41
sdaguebecause he helped me figure out how to do it20:41
dimssdague : would it make sense to somehow signal that the text had an update? when the goal is viewed in the web site20:41
EmilienMso i'm confused, we're updating a goal with a technical change that was already done in Infra? why do we need to discuss then?20:41
ttxsdague: when you mentioned "downsides", were you replying to my "Does it mean avery goal definition" question ?20:41
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dhellmannEmilienM : because the goal is the instructions we've given to teams about what they're supposed to do, and we want it to reflect current reality20:42
sdagueEmilienM: because we're still telling people to do it the other way20:42
ttx<ttx> Does it mean avery goal definition should include clear(er) instructions on how to reach it, to avoid such a situation in the future ?20:42
EmilienMdhellmann: but sdague already changed infra & devstack things20:42
dhellmannEmilienM : someone looking at the goal does not know that20:42
ttxor should we just expect goals posts can move ?20:42
dhellmannif that change to devstack had happened in queens, we wouldn't need to update the document20:42
dhellmannbut this is still an active set of instructions20:42
ttx(as long as they move in the "facilitation" direction)20:43
sdaguettx: I don't know, I think there was a vaguery here20:43
dhellmannyeah, I think it's OK to move them if it makes things simpler20:43
ttxsdague: ok20:43
dtroyeralso, I don't think the goal changed, but the implementation approach did20:43
dhellmanndtroyer : true20:43
sdaguedtroyer: right20:43
dimssdague : "Completion Criteria - Updated on May 2, 2017" or some such text20:43
sdaguedims: sure20:43
ttxalright, I think we have a way forward, let's switch to next topic ?20:43
ttx#topic TC to have approve authority on maintenance-mode projects20:43
sdagueand the goal kind of allowed for that because it had the hedge of "what devstack uses"20:43
*** openstack changes topic to "TC to have approve authority on maintenance-mode projects (Meeting topic: tc)"20:43
fungithe infra team has an established history of updating its approved specs to reflect changes in implementation decisions based on new information. this seems like a pretty similar situation20:43
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/46096320:44
ttxsdague: yours again20:44
dims++ fungi20:44
sdagueyes, this is follow on from a couple of weeks ago20:44
fungi(sorry, i'm a terribly slow reader and typist)20:44
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sdaguebasically if we end up with a project in maintenance mode, I suggested the TC be added to the core team as backstop20:44
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sdaguebecause there are already challenges when we have must approve patches with active core teams20:45
ttxsdague: I suspect our disagreement in the review comes from a glass half-full /half-empty difference in what maintenance-mode really is20:45
fungiif a change is so urgent that the tc needs to step in and approve it because there's nobody on the actual project team available to do so, that seems to me like a project we should go ahead and reture20:45
sdagueif the TC has decided to move a thing to maintenance mode, instead of moving it out entirely, the TC should take responsibility for it20:45
sdaguefungi: sure20:45
sdaguebut that should be the consideration20:45
ttxsdague: I guess, if the *TC* moves it20:45
sdaguedo we want it in maintenance mode, where TC acts as backstop20:46
sdagueor does the TC not want the responsiblity on that project, then move it out20:46
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sdagueat least, that model made sense in my head20:46
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ttxsdague: but the current definition of maintenance-mode says that the team must have responsive liaisons and process critical patches20:46
sdagueso it's up for debate20:46
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ttxso it feels like we are adding a clause to cover something that does not match the definition20:46
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fungiif the tc needs change approval on a project's deliverables, that could i guess be used to approve the change required to mark it retired (delete all files, replace readme with information on its archival state)20:47
sdaguettx: sure... I guess given that some active projects aren't always responsive there, I'm not sure I fully trust that maintenance mode projects will20:47
ttxin effect, if critical patches don't get merged, the project is failing maintenance-mode requirements20:47
EmilienMdoes it mean TC should also take care of releasing the project sometimes? (yeah because what's the point of merging patches if we don't release the project)20:47
sdaguethat's totally possible20:47
smcginnisThe alternative is if we end up in a non-responsive situation, we ask infra to add us and take care of it.20:47
dtroyersdague: it feels like your concern spans more than just maintenance mode20:48
smcginnisSo this seems to want to be proactive about that possibility.20:48
ttxsmcginnis: and move the project from maintenance-mode to abandoned20:48
fungismcginnis: agreed20:48
ttxI fear that it would dilute the meaning of maintenance-mode, in a negative way20:48
smcginnisttx: Which I think is what you're saying - if it comes down to it, we can do that as it is now.20:48
sdaguedtroyer: it's possible, again, it's up for discussion20:48
ttxsmcginnis: yeah20:48
sdaguesmcginnis: we can, but I kind of feel we should really be more explicit about this20:48
fungiand as smcginnis points out, the infra team's gerrit admins already have the ability to grant that access or take directed action from the tc as needed20:48
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ttxIf we say "we want critical patches to be processed but we'll cover them if you don't" that sends a rather mixed message20:49
dtroyermaybe what we need to be explicit about is jsut "unresponsive teams"?20:49
sdaguettx: it also shows that the TC is willing to put some effort into rekindling the project by handling some class of issues, while the project could rebuild core expertise20:49
ttxdtroyer: I think we already have a process for unresponsive teams where we can step up. I would prefer not to bake it in the maintenance-mode definition20:50
dtroyerI'm suggesting that thsi isn't a maintenace-mode-only thing20:50
fungian alternative would be for the tc to reserve the right to appoint new core reviewers (or just ptl? though we already have that and could exercise it today)20:50
dtroyeragreed on not limiting it to that tag20:50
sdaguebecause a maintenance-mode project is not going to rekindle if all their bandwidth is on non project things20:50
ttxsdague: maybe we need a under-tc-life-support status, in parallel to the maintenance-mode status, in case teams are unreponsive20:51
dtroyerfungi: exactly, as has already been said, I think we have what we need to day to cover this20:51
cdentthe impression I get is that the maintenance-mode tag is woefully under-defined20:51
fungithe rules we have now don't state that we can't appoint ourselves as new owners of a project, it's probably just understood that that could be seen as bad form20:51
ttxbasically I see maintenance-mode in a positive way -- going through a hard period so refocusing on the basic essentials20:52
ttxI feel like saying that we half-expect to have to step up shines a negtive light on it20:52
sdaguettx: sure, but the current cores on that project need to spend their time on pbr synchronization instead of mentoring new members20:52
sdagueI don't think that brings the project back20:52
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ttxsdague: so you are saying is that TC members are encouraged to step in to help maintenance-mode projects ?20:53
sdagueI personally see this as "we want you to recover, so we the TC will help"20:53
fungiwhile i appreciate the sentiment of wanting to pitch in and help out in that situation, i question whether every (or any) tc member elected has the necessary skills to do so (i certainly don't feel that i do anyway)20:53
ttxbut we can already do that without signing up the whole TC members as core members20:53
cdentthe truth is that whether a project is maintenance mode or not, if it need urgent attention and the project doesn't attend, we step in, right? So why do we need a resolution?20:53
sdagueand if the TC membership doesn't want to take that one20:53
sdaguethen we shouldn't put it into this state20:53
EmilienMfungi: good question. Skills and time.20:54
ttxsdague: basically, if you as a person want to commit time to help a struggling project, that's awesome20:54
cdentwe seem to conflating "helping a project" with "dealing with critical things that come up"20:54
ttxI don't think we need to give every TC members core rights to make that happen20:54
fungiand it's that sort of involvement which causes you to be elected to the tc in the first place20:54
dimswho is this text signalling to? the people left in the project? or the operators/users?20:55
dhellmanncdent : some of what we're trying to do is write down those undocumented assumptions20:55
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sdagueyeh, well, discussion point :)20:55
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dimsdhellmann : are we making sure folks who want to apply the tag, we tell them we will back you up?20:55
cdentdhellmann: sure, I guess I had assumed incorrectly that the global power to step in in emergencies was already documented20:56
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dhellmanncdent : that's a good question, and I'm not sure I know the answer.20:56
EmilienMdo we have a use-case (or in other words, a project that might have the tag soon), so we can go in concrete examples?20:56
sdaguecdent: definitely not documented, which also means that most of the time it's only done because of trust not because of need20:56
fungicdent: i believe it is (we already document what happens if a ptl disappears or nobody is nominated)20:56
ttxoh well, let's continue on the review20:56
cdentha, that's three different answers :)20:56
dtroyerEmilienM: the tag was proposed so it could be applied to trove20:56
ttxand move to open discussion20:56
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sdaguelike if I explain to fungi something really needs to happen, with a good explanation, he'll typically do it20:57
EmilienMdtroyer: right so, let's talk about trove case?20:57
dimscdent : welcome again :)20:57
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sdaguebecause he knows I'm not off on crazy land, and I only ask when it's really needed20:57
ttx#topic Open discussion20:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:57
fungiif there's nobody around still to tend to urgent matters on a team, then there is also (effectively at least) no ptl20:57
ttxBoston next week, feels like we could organize a TC dinner for those still standing on Thursday evening20:57
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fungiand we can appoint one (which could be a tc member i suppose)20:57
ttxAs cdent suggested we gather to do some work too, I booked a slot in a late Thursday Forum session... so far only johnthetubaguy won't be able to make it20:58
sdaguefungi: right, like the "no cores on sqlachemy-migrate" thing20:58
dimsttx : +1 from me20:58
smcginnisttx: +1 would love to spend time with everyone.20:58
sdagueyeh +120:58
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cdentvery +1 on that. some face time to spitball20:58
ttxalright, let's do it20:58
dimsblocked my calendar20:58
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EmilienMas long as it's not too expensive, +120:58
ttxAnything else, anyone ?20:58
fungii'm fine with it so long as cdent promises not to spit on me at least ;)20:58
* smcginnis notes to not sit across from cdent's spitballs20:58
cdentyou people are no fun at all!20:59
ttxWe likely won't have a sponsor, so it will be split tab20:59
dhellmannEmilienM : the new folks have to pay, do don't worry about it ;-)20:59
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EmilienMreminder: some of our folks have to pay for their own expenses20:59
dims++ dhellmann20:59
cdentI wanted to mention that the compatibility guidelline that is blocked on the interop guideline in the api-wg will unblock on thursday when interop merges20:59
dhellmannyeah, low key is fine20:59
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ttxyeah, we usually have good samaritans to pick up the bill for them in those cases20:59
dtroyercdent:  \o/21:00
ttxok, time is up21:00
fungithanks ttx!21:00
dhellmannsee you all next week21:00
ttxThanks everyone and see you next week21:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue May  2 21:00:26 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-05-02-20.01.html21:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-05-02-20.01.txt21:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-05-02-20.01.log.html21:00
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