Friday, 2018-08-10

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ekcs#startmeeting congressteammeeting02:31
openstackMeeting started Fri Aug 10 02:31:30 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ekcs. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.02:31
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'congressteammeeting'02:31
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ekcshello all. topics kept here as usual:
akhil_jainekcs: hi02:39
ekcshi akhil_jain !02:40
ekcshow’s it been?02:40
akhil_jaineverything fine. how about you?02:41
ekcspretty good!02:42
ekcsI see that you got the monasca notification patch through! I was thinking it’d have to be next cycle. good stuff there!02:42
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akhil_jainYes thats the initial version. They want keystone trust to be added.02:44
akhil_jainBut with present code congress driver is working fine02:44
ekcsthat’s awesome.02:45
ekcswell let’s dive in to the topics then.02:45
ekcs#topic announcements02:45
*** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: congressteammeeting)"02:45
ekcs#topic RC102:45
*** openstack changes topic to "RC1 (Meeting topic: congressteammeeting)"02:45
ekcsRC1 tagged for both congress and congress-dashboard.02:46
ekcswe got quite a lot done this cycle. some of the main completed tasks are listed in this etherpad under the section Completed in Rocky02:46
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ekcsmonasca webhook, vitrage webhook, type system, and z3 engine are the big features. plus lots of helpful improvements and fixes.02:48
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ekcsif we don’t find any release blocker bugs prior to final release, RC1 will become our final release.02:48
ekcsany questions or comments on RC1?02:49
akhil_jainnone from my side02:49
ekcs#topic stein02:49
*** openstack changes topic to "stein (Meeting topic: congressteammeeting)"02:49
ekcs#topic RC102:50
*** openstack changes topic to "RC1 (Meeting topic: congressteammeeting)"02:50
ekcsone more comment on that.02:50
ekcsthe stable/rocky branch has been created too. which means the master branch is again open for all changes without release restriction.02:51
ekcs#topic stein02:51
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ekcsnext cycle is stein of course. still early, but we can definitely feel free to start thinking about what we’d like to see in stein.02:51
ekcsI’ve just put down a brain-storming etherpad here:02:52
ekcsif things come to mind feel free to jot them down in the etherpad. we can discuss and organize them in the next few weeks.02:53
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ekcsthat’s all from me for today = )02:54
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ekcsok let’s end meeting then if nothing else for today = )03:07
ekcshave a great weekend!03:08
akhil_jainBye! have a great weekend.03:08
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"03:09
openstackMeeting ended Fri Aug 10 03:09:34 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)03:09
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smcginnis#startmeeting releaseteam15:01
openstackMeeting started Fri Aug 10 15:01:56 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is smcginnis. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: releaseteam)"15:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'releaseteam'15:02
smcginnis#link Agenda15:02
smcginnisCurrently around line 50315:02
smcginnisI won't do the ping list, but hopefully get by just mentioning ttx and dhellmann15:02
annabelleBo/ (late to the party)15:03
ttxI was there already, see above :)15:03
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smcginnisGood, the gangs all here.15:04
smcginnis#topic RC status15:04
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smcginnisWe have some details in the etherpad for various deliverables.15:05
smcginnisprometheanfire: That near the bottom of
smcginnisI think we have an update on RC1 deliverables except for cyborg.15:05
* fungi is around, just having too many discussions at once15:05
prometheanfiresame, two meetings at once :P15:06
* dhellmann is having 2 conversations with fungi 15:06
smcginnisBarbican - they thought deadline was today.15:06
prometheanfiresmcginnis: so the question I have is the same as all the FFE things, UC only? probably fine15:06
smcginnisprometheanfire: We have a few client libraries in the list on the etherpad.15:07
smcginnisLooks like all should just be u-c only.15:07
prometheanfireya, I see them, looks like 315:07
smcginnisprometheanfire: Do you want us to direct them to send a FFE?15:08
prometheanfireiirc I think karborclient had a release already, but ya, UC only is fine15:08
ttxsmcginnis: Looks like only cyborg might need to be cat-herded?15:08
prometheanfireif only to name and shame15:08
smcginnisprometheanfire: We have a python-designateclient patch up.15:08
ttx(in the cycle-with-milestones ones)15:09
smcginnismugsie: Can you send an FFE to openstack-dev for the python-designateclient? Then we can link to that for the release patch.15:09
smcginnisttx: Yeah, that is the only one I haven't seen activity from.15:09
prometheanfirethey could be batched into one request to cut the spam too15:09
ttxsmcginnis: + karbor and tricircle for their client ?15:10
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smcginnisSo sticking with the RC list so we don't scatter all over - we are waiting for barbican, we may need to force cyborg, the rest have patches up.15:10
smcginnisttx: Karbor is separate.15:10
smcginnisttx: Oh, sorry, I see what you're saying now.15:11
ttxI'd just cut a release for both15:11
ttxif that's just CI/reqs changes15:11
smcginnisI can send the FFE for those two at least as a way to announce the release team is following through with what we had said we would do and are forcing a release of them.15:11
ttxand then if karbor fails to release an intermediary release we'd remove both15:12
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ttx(karbor and karborclient)15:12
smcginnisGood point. I will note that as well.15:12
smcginnis#action smcginnis to send FFE for karbor and tricircle clients noting release is being forced. Also noting karbor will be removed if service release is not requested.15:13
ttx(tricircle ahs a relatively recent release and is branched)15:13
smcginnisSo maybe just some late patches for the client.15:14
ttxok next cycle-with-intermediary services15:14
ttxwe heard for cloudkitty earlier this week, they should send in something15:14
ttxnot sure we heard anything from karbor or magnum15:14
smcginnisI have not.15:14
* ttx checks his ping list15:14
dhellmannnor i15:14
ttxstrigazi: ?15:15
smcginnisAnd not sure how cloudkitty missed RC when they had been in touch prior to it.15:15
ttxI think he said he might be one or two days late ?15:15
ttxwhich for intermediary-released stuff is not so big15:15
prometheanfireya, triple-o is in that camp15:16
ttxzhipeng is not on this channe;15:16
dhellmannthe intermediary server projects aren't technically late, right?15:17
ttxdhellmann: no they aren't15:17
dhellmannwe just set the deadline for them to the final deadline, according to the schedule page15:17
smcginnisAccording to the clarification last week, they have until RC final.15:17
dhellmannthat's what I meant15:17
ttxwe'd still prefer it earlier so we can cut stabel/rocky15:17
smcginnisCuts it close for some of these that have not done any releases yet, but that is what we published.15:17
dhellmannright, but it's their problem if they run into issues when we go ahead with the other branches15:18
dhellmannthat's what we've communicated in the past15:18
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smcginnisSo cloudkitty - we know they are working on it, karbor - will warn in client FFE that they need to do a release or risk being removed, magnum - no word yet.15:19
dhellmannand since we're not syncing requirements any more, we shouldn't have any issues with versions going up on master then back down after the branch15:19
smcginnisClients: designate - patch is up, karbor and tricircle - will send FFE and force releases.15:20
dhellmannshould we warn them about the impending deadline and missing being included in rocky?15:20
dhellmann(them == magnum)15:20
fungithe castellan ffe e-mail just hot the -dev list too15:20
fungier, just hit15:21
smcginnisWe probably should warn magnum, though we have stated in multiple posts and it is documented.15:21
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smcginnisHorizon plugins?15:23
smcginnisCloudkitty is known.15:23
dhellmannI'm trying to put the notes into the etherpad, and I missed the client ones. are those all warnings?15:23
smcginnisHopefully mugsie can send FFE for designate. I will send one for karbor and tricircle ones.15:24
smcginnisWith the warning that they will be removed if no service release by RC final.15:24
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mugsiesmcginnis: I will do that now, before I forget15:24
smcginnismugsie: Thanks!15:24
dhellmannok, I think I'm caught up15:25
smcginnisNot sure about tacker-horizon and zun-ui.15:25
smcginniszun-ui looks to be the bigger concern.15:25
dhellmannthose looked like there were enough changes to need a warning15:26
smcginnisBut they do still have until RC final.15:26
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smcginnisOK, "others"?15:27
ttxTheJulia might know the bifrost situation15:27
dhellmannthe monasca-kibana-plugin had no real changes except the readme file format15:28
smcginniskuryr-* ones have some, but again have until RC final.15:28
dhellmannI guess that means it's stable? it would be good to have confirmation that it's maintained.15:28
dhellmannthe tempest tag is called out in our process somewhere I think15:28
dhellmannoh, just for the branching15:29
dhellmannI do seem to remember that we wait to tag tempest as long as possible though15:30
smcginnisI have not seen anything for networking-hyperv, and given the recent election results for the Win team, they might need a reminder.15:30
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dhellmannseems likely15:30
ttxI feel like we should (in the future) mandate that intermediary-released stuff has one release and branch done by R-215:30
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dhellmannthat's early for a branch, but a release makes sense15:31
evrardjpdhellmann: it would be nice to document the why15:31
dhellmannwe used to have that rule, iirc15:31
ttxsince the turnaround for removing that deliverable (and update release messaging) is REALLY short15:31
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dhellmannevrardjp : yes, definitely15:31
smcginnisttx: RC2 or RC3? It would be nice to make sure something is being done before the end.15:31
dhellmannsmcginnis : rc2 is the inclusion deadline for milestone projects, so that sort of makes sense. although rc3 would be ok, too.15:32
ttxsmcginnis: I'd either add a deadline at R-2, or require that anything that is past R-3 requires an exception15:32
ttxBasically I'm fine cutting slack to people that are keeping up and reaching out15:32
ttxI'm worried about peolpe we haven't heard from15:32
smcginnisMe too.15:33
dhellmannwe don't really do negative messaging, right? so even if we remove the project at r2 folks who aren't checking until the end of the cycle won't notice until then.15:33
TheJuliare bifrost, I know it needs to be released, but it is mainly geared on tooling to deploy ironic, so I just haven't gotten to that yet since there has a minor breakage15:33
smcginnisTheJulia: OK, thanks.15:34
smcginnisTheJulia: It is cycle-with-intermediary, so there's a little time yet.15:34
TheJuliayeah, my perception was next week15:34
ttxThe original idea behind MembershipFreeze and requiring somethign is in by milestone-2 was to have those discussions about what is in the release a lot earlier in the cycle15:35
dhellmannyeah, that's why I would support an rc2 deadline for intermediary projects15:35
ttxremoving stuff the week before release is not making us look good15:35
dhellmannjust make them all the same deadline15:35
smcginnisThat makes sense.15:35
ttxand makes it very difficult to work on release messaging15:35
smcginnisWe really should not have questions about what is in or out this late.15:35
ttxAlso... intermediary-released was for things that do multiple releases15:36
ttxthings that can't make a release need the cycle-with-milestone baby-wheels15:36
evrardjpI agree on the idea of having the "same deadline" as message, but it's far from possible due to a chain of dependencies15:36
ttxI'm just ranting out loud15:37
dhellmannevrardjp : ?15:37
smcginnisttx: No, it's all very valid.15:37
evrardjpmaybe it was out of context, continue :)15:37
evrardjp"them all" was not clear to15:38
annabelleB(I see cyborg rc1 just appeared)15:38
dhellmannevrardjp : ah, I meant "all cycle-with-intermediary and cycle-with-milestones projects"15:38
armstrongthx: thx for the clarification on release models, it’s clear now to me.15:38
evrardjpdhellmann: I realised that afterwards.15:38
smcginnisOK, c-w-i outdated releases.15:39
smcginnisSwift we know is coming.15:39
smcginnisNot sure about heat.15:39
dhellmannsmcginnis , ttx: perhaps we should change the models for some of these projects that aren't really following the intermediary model expections15:39
smcginnisWe may just need to force a branch from the last release.15:39
ttxThe RC dance was so that we have a fallback release on R-3. intermediary-released did not have to go with the RC dance because we were supposed to have a fallback release (the last intermediary) already15:39
ttxAnd now people use it to release a single thing at the end... and we lose our fallback15:39
smcginnisdhellmann: I think I'd rather prod them to require an earlier intermediary release.15:40
evrardjpttx: that's good to clarify this.15:40
dhellmannsmcginnis : well, like ttx said, if they're not actually producing intermediary releases...15:40
ttxI think we should reach out to all those who did a single release and being intermediary15:40
ttxand ask them about going with-milestones again15:40
evrardjpor independant?15:41
ttxThe trick being, of course, that with-milestones is inferior as it's less semver15:41
dhellmannperhaps we should suggest more strongly than we did in the past when we had those conversations15:41
smcginnisI'm saying I'd rather force (stronly encourage) them to do intermediary releases like they should or miss being part of the coordinated release.15:41
ttxevrardjp: we want "openstack" main components to be released on the cycle15:41
smcginnisevrardjp: Yep, good point. If they can't do intermediary, then they probably should be independent.15:41
ttxso that independent option is not open to all15:41
dhellmannsmcginnis : ok, I guess presenting the choice that way works for me. Either actually do intermediary releases, switch to milestones, or switch to independent.15:41
armstrongttx: how many RC should a release have?15:41
smcginnisIt would depend on what it is.15:41
evrardjpttx: that was a joke initially -- what I meant behind that is that maybe they are not using the right model15:41
smcginnisarmstrong: As close to 1 as possible.15:42
dhellmannarmstrong : for milestone-based projects we require 1 and often have a second for final translations.15:42
smcginnisevrardjp: Could be.15:42
* TheJulia finds this entire discussion really frustrating from a contribution standpoint.15:42
ttxdhellmann: in theory, we /could/ fallback to the last release they did. The previous cycle.15:42
armstrongok thx15:42
dhellmannbut yeah, we don't want a lot of them15:42
dhellmannTheJulia : what about it frustrates you?15:42
smcginnisTheJulia: Can you share your frustrations?15:42
TheJuliadhellmann: eating food real quick to make sure it is not low blood sugar15:42
evrardjpTheJulia: that's why I am saying this: If your project doesn't meet certain procedure,maybe the procedure isn't the right one?15:43
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evrardjpTheJulia: I smiled on blood sugar.15:43
dhellmannTheJulia : ack. I'm interested in your perspective. I'm probably too close to the other side of the question.15:43
smcginnisAll of this should be around helping teams make sure they are progressing along and able to be released together as a good, quality whole. If it's not encouraging that, then we should reevaluate.15:43
dhellmannevrardjp : right, a big purpose of the models is to describe what process the project uses for releases, so if the project isn't actually doing what the model says then the model is wrong15:44
ttxbasically I'd prefer not to remove anything from the release after milestone-215:44
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evrardjpdhellmann: I don't want to look oversimplifying though :)15:44
dhellmannevrardjp : I think the models are defined well, so what I mean is that they are not matched correctly to what the teams need.15:45
dhellmannwe're using the wrong models, not defining the models incorrectly15:45
evrardjpthat's what I meant.15:45
dhellmannhuzzah, we agree!15:45
smcginnisWe have a long list of ones missing stable branches. Some appear to have merged a lot since their last release, but I think we will just have to force the stable branch for those that do not have anything before final.15:45
dhellmannwhat is the effect of not forcing stable branches now for projects that are not milestone-based?15:46
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smcginnisThese are cycle-with-intermediary, so I don't think we should force until the RC final deadline.15:46
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dhellmannah, right, I misread what you said15:46
smcginnisOtherwise if they are planning to release more, they would end up needing to backport potentally a lot.15:47
* dhellmann may need some of TheJulia's noms15:47
ttxdumping a few more thoughts in #openstack-release to avoid disrupting meeting further15:47
smcginnisRelease team brunch.15:47
dhellmannthere's a plan15:47
annabelleBhere for this!15:47
dhellmanndoes denver do brunch?15:47
evrardjpwill there be wine?15:48
smcginnisI'm sure we can find somewhere.15:48
dhellmannof course!15:48
TheJuliaI see it as kind of two fold. We want fallbacks for messaging, but as pointed out we don't get them... because projects have the ability to break eachother kind of hard at times by minor actions or changes. I get the desire for messaging, but if you can't get to something to milestone-3 that is unrelated, then your essentially penalizing in my mind. We're essentially trying to drive things to move in lock-step, but15:48
TheJuliait is really unreasonable imho. I think we can only really 'release' what we know works together too.15:48
smcginnisFunny how several channels have all gravitated towards food lately.15:48
dhellmannsmcginnis : the memes own us15:48
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* fungi plans to go find food as soon as the meeting ends15:49
smcginnisTheJulia: We want to make sure a release is done earlier in the cycle, but it would not be their final release.15:49
evrardjpsmcginnis: I am not at fault, but yeah that's my main hobby.15:49
smcginnisTheJulia: Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.15:49
dhellmannTheJulia : I guess the point is to release early and often, or to use the milestone model which is strictly date-based and tests the release process without producing something that claims to be production ready15:49
TheJuliasmcginnis: so then we force number/release model, stable branch backporting for the final release?15:50
dhellmannprojects using the intermediary model claim to be stable, well tested, and well maintained. If that's not the case, then that's the wrong model for the project.15:50
TheJuliabut that feels like it fragments the deliverable product15:50
fungiput another way, if the project is only creating one release per cycle, then it ought to be cycle-with-milestone?15:50
smcginnisWe don't force release model. That is something the team chooses. We just try to enforce that they follow their chosen model.15:50
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ttxfungi: well, yes.15:51
dhellmannsmcginnis : right. we want them to accurately describe how they manage releases.15:51
ttxit's called cycle-with-intermediary, not cycle-with-one-single-release-that-if-you-miss-it-you-are-out15:51
smcginnisWe don't want to impose anything on the teams other than to follow through with what they've declared they would do.15:51
dhellmannthat's spelled "independent"15:51
evrardjpsmcginnis: should we?15:52
ttxok if we are having that discussion now... I'll paste from #opensatck-release15:52
ttx17:48 <ttx> In the name of giving teams control over their deliverables, we created a machine that removes components from OpenStack if someone misses a couple of checkboxes.15:52
* dhellmann waits for the paste before responding15:52
ttx17:48 <ttx> I wonder if the process should not, by default, do releases for people15:52
ttx17:49 <ttx> and then those who want the extra control can assert it15:52
evrardjpI agree.15:53
TheJuliasmcginnis: I think that is a good delineation, the conundrum is I think the milestone model is unsustainable without automated point in time "we're releasing this" which is out of control of contributiors aside from trying to get things in early, because we do get the gates bogged down at the end of the cycle, but I also think we have many smaller minor things that just don't have the resources to release any other15:53
TheJuliaway except as "hey, got this thing",  but then compatibility is completely unknown to everything else.15:53
evrardjpit simplifies the model, and doesn't have a bad message.15:53
dhellmannttx: we have the split between servers and libraries to consider, too. I would support "milestone by default" for servers, but that doesn't work for libs. :-/15:53
* TheJulia hits the same idea as ttx15:54
ttxdhellmann: we could do regular library releases too ?15:54
TheJuliaif there have been changes landed, sure15:54
dhellmannttx: we could, but when something breaks as the result then that's on us instead of the team that owns the library15:54
dhellmannwe've had a few times where we knew and oslo release would break something, so we waited15:54
smcginnis"why did you release that - it's not ready and we've been trying to fix this bug!"15:55
TheJuliaThis also goes back to the earlier discussion where releasing libraries without a reason felt like the wrong thing to be doing15:55
dhellmannthat's less likely with servers, except the break would happen downstream of us where someone is automatically packaging based on tags15:55
TheJuliasmcginnis: "tough"?15:55
ttxif you don't want your thing to be released, you can flag it15:55
fungireleasing libraries when there are changes is the right thing to be doing. making unnecessary changes to libraries is the wrong thing to be doing15:55
dhellmannwhen did we do unnecessary library releases?15:56
TheJuliadhellmann: we were talking about forcing releases of libraries with no changes15:56
ttxIf you don;t flag it as "safe to release anytime", then it's on you to fix it if it breaks ?15:56
fungii assume it's conflated with releasing libs with just requirements bumps in them in the past15:56
fungiand the idea that we should let our stable libs actually remain stable15:56
dhellmannTheJulia : ah, maybe because there were CI changes and so if we create the branch without including them it would be broken immediately and require backports?15:57
evrardjpttx: isn't that what a PTL of a project can do? Like reviewing things is probably easier than remembering the deadlines in a busy world.15:57
dhellmannyeah, we still need to talk about what to do with those. I think I'm leaning towards just making stable libraries independent.15:57
TheJuliadhellmann: That is the risk with any branch or any release. Ironic has had to create its branch in a broken state because it was broken by things outside of our influence or control.  We had to backport everything to get things going again15:58
ttxAnyway, that won't apply to rocky, but i think we should spend a few minutes on that in Denver15:58
fungiwhat was the resolution on branching when there were no changes? did we decide to preemptively branch?15:58
dhellmannTheJulia : sure. We're trying to reduce the number of times that happens, though.15:58
smcginnisWith 2 minutes left, this does seem like a good thing for the PTG.15:58
TheJuliadhellmann: agreed and I believe we should attempt that15:59
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smcginnisI'll add a topic to our PTG etherpad.15:59
smcginnisAnyting else in the last few seconds?16:00
dhellmannfungi : I don't remember, but we should make sure it's written down somewhere16:00
ttxcyborg request is now in16:00
ttxand Barbican's16:00
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ttxso we are good as far as Rocky process goes :)16:00
smcginnisOK, we're at time. Thanks everyone.16:00
fungithanks smcginnis!16:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"16:00
openstackMeeting ended Fri Aug 10 16:00:58 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)16:00
annabelleBthanks smcginnis!16:01
openstackMinutes (text):
* fungi goes to find friday nourishment16:01
smcginnisfungi: Is "friday nourishment" code for beer?16:01
fungiit could be, you never know ;)16:02
TheJuliasmcginnis: fungi: This sounds wise16:02
fungibut mostly code for errands and a fish sandwich16:02
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