Thursday, 2020-02-06

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efried#startmeeting nova14:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Feb  6 14:00:46 2020 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is efried. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova)"14:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova'14:00
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bauzas\o (in 1:1 meeting also)14:00
gmanno/ (in TC meeting also )14:01
efried#link agenda
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efried#topic Last meeting14:03
efried#link Minutes from last meeting:
*** openstack changes topic to "Last meeting (Meeting topic: nova)"14:03
efriedWe had some action items from last time...14:03
efriedACTION: sean-k-mooney to do the train implemented specs business14:03
sean-k-mooneydamit ill do that now14:03
efried:) Thanks14:04
efriedACTION: lyarwood to propose train & stein releases14:04
lyarwood^ is done and released14:04
efriedthis got done. I think I saw both merged today.14:04
efriedThanks lyarwood14:04
efriedACTION: lyarwood to curate rocky EM list14:04
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lyarwood^ this hasn't started due to stable/rocky being blocked by tempest issues14:05
lyarwoodonce these pass I'll get on with this14:05
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efriedgreat, thanks.14:06
efried#topic Bugs (stuck/critical)14:06
efriedNo Critical bugs14:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (stuck/critical) (Meeting topic: nova)"14:06
efriedHowever, the other bug numbers (see project heartbeat) have been creeping up14:06
efried#help triage bugs!14:06
brinzhangcan we close this bug fix
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efriedstephenfin: that ^ was where dansmith had jumped in and redirected at some point, right?14:08
efriedso he should probably be the +A?14:08
efriedbrinzhang: let's follow up on that in the main channel when dansmith is about.14:09
efried#topic Reminders14:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Reminders (Meeting topic: nova)"14:09
brinzhangyeah, that need get dansmith's comments14:09
efriedLast week I scrubbed the14:10
efried#link ussuri blueprints
efriedand the specs I could find14:10
efried#link etherpad (feel free to leave notes etc.)
efriedI've been making noise about scrubbing the list once we pass the milestone.14:11
efriedAs a reminder, this would be an exercise where we make up *some* kind of criteria to pick which blueprints we're going to pursue and which we're going to defer for Ussuri.14:12
efriedRight now we have 41 blueprints against ussuri, of which seven are already implemented.14:13
efriedIMHO, given the size of the team, that's too many to land14:13
efriedbut 20 are still not design:approved at this point, so I'm guessing we'll be starting with a smaller number anyway.14:15
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efriedProbably a good idea to set up a spec review day for early next week. Tuesday work for everyone?14:15
sean-k-mooney so 21 are design approve and 7 of those are done14:15
sean-k-mooneyleaveing 14 remaining14:15
gmanndesign approve means spec not merged right? I always get confused with LP mapping14:15
gmann*design not approve14:16
efriedsorry gmann, it's a new thing. Yes, when we merge the spec we change the blueprint to design:approved.14:16
bauzasefried: count me on it14:16
efriedfor specless blueprints we can change to design:approved once we have agreement on the *how*.14:16
efrieddirection:approved speaks to the *when*14:17
sean-k-mooney is the review to update the implemented spec in train by the way14:17
efried#action efried to ML about spec scrub day14:17
gmannefriedok, yeah you old last time also but somehow i forget14:17
brinzhangthere is a spec, I think it's ready to go, I sended ML of this spec, ML:
efriedthanks sean-k-mooney14:17
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efriedProbably given who's here (and not here) it'll be best to take specific spec review requests/discussions offline.14:18
efriedanything else, process-wise, about spec freeze?14:19
efriedRocky EM (lyarwood)14:19
efried#link open rocky patches
efriedwe already talked about this.14:19
efried#topic PTG/Summit planning14:20
efriedPlease mark **attendance** and topics on14:20
efried#link PTG etherpad
*** openstack changes topic to "PTG/Summit planning (Meeting topic: nova)"14:20
efriedI've been asked to fill out the survey thingy to let the planners know how much space we're going to need, so please do at least the attendance bit of that ^ as soon as you can.14:20
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efriedTough to say based on the shanghai PTG, but how big a room do folks think we'll need?14:21
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brinzhangI think at least 15 people sits :P14:22
efriedagree; that would seem to be the bare minimum to me.14:23
gmannit was more dynamic attendance also, so expected +5 should be counted14:23
sean-k-mooneythat would cover the active memebers barely14:23
sean-k-mooneyif we want to be able to have a cross team meeing in the nova room14:24
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efriedthe layout options jump from 20 to 40, which is weird, I would expect us to be somewhere in between at max capacity. I guess I'll ask for the bigger one.14:24
efriedyeah, good call14:24
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efriedokay, moving on.14:24
efried#topic Sub/related team Highlights14:24
efriedPlacement (tetsuro)14:24
*** openstack changes topic to "Sub/related team Highlights (Meeting topic: nova)"14:24
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efriedI think the only thing going here is consumer types, which tetsuro and melwitt have been working through.14:25
efriedThere was some discussion about whether we should try to close the gaps in anti-affinity expressiveness so we can cover a few remaining corner cases in NUMA modeling.14:25
efriedbut I think we agreed that could be deferred, right sean-k-mooney bauzas?14:26
bauzascorrect, PCI devices affinity can't be done in Ussuri14:26
sean-k-mooneywe could defer if we keep the numa toplogy filter to check the numa of numa nodes14:26
bauzas(at least from me)14:26
efriedfor now we'll use group_policy=none and let the NTF do the anti-affinity14:26
efriedwe're not talking about devices yet.14:26
efriedAPI (gmann)14:27
efriedgmann did not send the updated report this week. Last updates on ML:
gmanni did not get chance to send updates on ML. But working on few API spec review and policy work.14:27
gmanni will appreciate review on this - #link
gmannchanges are easy and on same line as first set of os-service API merged14:27
gmannI will be pushing more API changes soon once bring up the stable gate up14:28
gmannthat's all from my side14:28
sean-k-mooneygmann: that review of the code not the spec right14:28
sean-k-mooneythe design is already approved14:28
gmannsean-k-mooney yes, code14:28
gmannfirst set of changes also merged with agreement with john and how we should do for other APIs14:29
efriedready to move on?14:29
efried#topic Stuck Reviews14:30
*** openstack changes topic to "Stuck Reviews (Meeting topic: nova)"14:30
efried[huaqiang] the spec 'mixed cpu policy instance spec' still needs more input14:30
efried#link Use PCPU and VCPU in one instance :
efriedplacement-ess style interface ('resources:(P|V)CPU') vs legacy flavor style (eg: 'hw(:|_)numa_pinned_cpus') interface through a CPU mask14:30
efriedwe've been back and forth on this one.14:30
stephenfinI think that needs dansmith to resolve14:30
huaqiangstephen gives a -114:30
huaqianghe recomends the legacy flavor style interface14:31
dansmithit does?14:31
efriedby the way, I thought the design work for NUMA topo brought out some great examples of why we should prefer the hw: style over the placement syntax.14:31
stephenfindansmith: Yup. fwict, you're asking for us to mix placement-style syntax with traditional extra specs. I absolutely don't want that14:31
dansmithsounds like there's no room for compromise, and I'm not even -1 on that spec, so .. not much to discuss I guess?14:32
stephenfinI was guessing you'd a good reason for preferring the thing I don't like14:33
sean-k-mooneywell at one point supporting both was an option.14:33
stephenfinYup, I'm fine with that too14:33
alex_xuok for support both too14:33
stephenfinjust not bits of one style and bits of another14:33
bauzasthe consensus on the NUMA topology spec is to *not* ask for placement-ished flavor syntax14:33
bauzaswe'll provide a translation mechanism14:34
bauzasthe question remains, should we block flavors already expressing placement-esque ?14:34
stephenfinlet's figure that out in that spec14:34
bauzasbecause I'd like to see the same agreement for huaqiang's spec14:34
stephenfinoh, okay14:35
efriedI don't especially have a problem if the code supports the placement-ese syntax, but IMO we should not encourage it. IOW we should document the other way for any given feature.14:35
sean-k-mooneyi think that is a seperate question. i spoke to dansmith about this and i think long term no we dont block14:35
sean-k-mooneybut i would not encurage the use of groups14:35
bauzasif we say that operators are enough grown-up for using placement-esque syntaxes, then we aslo agree that the translation mechanism is just for legacy reasons14:35
sean-k-mooneyand we need to consider evolving the current support to add a translation layer for the plamcenet syntax14:35
stephenfinI've no objections to someone doing e.g. '... --propety resources:PCPU=N --property resources:VCPU=M'14:36
bauzasright, that's why I tie the two specs together14:36
stephenfinnot sure how useful it is but if people want it, why not14:36
bauzaswe're talking of flavor extra specs14:36
sean-k-mooneythe only point i object to for placement syntax is using it to expres toplogy via groups14:36
stephenfinbut I disallowed '--property hw:cpu_policy=<anything> --property:(V|P)CPU=<anything>' for cpu-resources14:36
stephenfinand I still think disallowing that makes sense14:37
bauzasstephenfin: if you're okay with validating the craziness of it with your own spec, then okay :)14:37
dansmithmy major complaint is that we have a hundred bespoke DSLs encoded into 255 characters with little consistency, and that we are (IMHO) reversing course on the preferred way to specify those things. I want it to be highly abstract and consistent, and placement syntax is at least a step in that direction14:37
dansmithbut I think that's the thing that most of you actually want, because it's easier on *us* instead of the *users*14:37
bauzasI think we have a way to restrict the fooliness of extra specs with stephenfin's spec about flavor validation14:37
efriedit's the abstract-ness I have a problem with, exactly because it's harder on the users.14:37
dansmithyes, well, we disagree obviously14:37
stephenfindansmith: what's easier on us? the legacy extra spec stuff?14:38
bauzashonestly, the current NUMA extra specs are a poor DSL14:38
dansmithanyway, I said _many_ times in the original conversation that I would not block on this, and haven't even lodged a -1 so I'm not sure why we're talking about this14:38
bauzasI'd prefer placement-esque syntax14:38
efriedwith hw:* only *we* have to understand the shape of the provider model. With resources:* etc, the *user* would have to understand it. And how placement works.14:38
alex_xuDSL is an abstract which is better than placement synatx14:38
alex_xunuma vs a set of request groups...14:38
bauzasbut, between a standard alloc candidates query and a larger one asking for in_tree and member_of, there is a big change14:39
stephenfinah, then we can move on. I just didn't want huaqiang rewriting stuff only to have to undo it again14:39
bauzaswe can move on, but the question remains14:39
huaqiangseems I can move on now...14:39
bauzasand I'd appreciate we get a consensus on this either in the NUMA topology spec or in the huaqiang's spec14:39
alex_xuwhat about the bitmask?14:40
alex_xuhuaqiang: ^ that is still question?14:40
sean-k-mooneywe are goign to support that right?14:40
stephenfinalex_xu: I _think_ that's what huaqiang is suggesting still, yeah14:40
alex_xuok cool14:40
huaqiangI like the cpu mask solution14:40
alex_xuyea, me too, just want to ensure14:41
sean-k-mooneythat is consitent with the numa toplogy in plamcent spec too14:41
sean-k-mooneywe shoudl revisit the question of placement syntax as a ptg topic i think14:41
stephenfingood idea14:42
huaqiangactually sean-k-money offers a good comments on cpu mask interface I'll follow that14:42
sean-k-mooneyefried: i thnk we can move to the next topic14:43
efried#topic Open discussion14:43
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: nova)"14:43
efriedumbSublime: ^14:43
efriedproposal is to add the ability to expose an invariant tsc cpu flag and specify the frequency to allow live migration.14:43
efriedwe previously discussed this and said it could be a specless blueprint if the blueprint content was sufficient. do we agree that it is?14:43
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sean-k-mooneyso looking the blueprint it has nto been updated yet but the proposed text is in the etherpad14:44
sean-k-mooneyumbSublime: could you summerise you usecase for this14:45
umbSublimeYes, in our openstack platform we host many game servers, some only run on windows VMs and require this flag to be present. If it isn't the process either crashes or the game server is really slow because it relies on another clock14:46
sean-k-mooneyam i correct in saying you currently work around this with the cpu_extra_flags config option14:47
sean-k-mooneybut that approch causes issues since you cannot live migrate for maintance14:47
umbSublimeMy work-around it to manually virsh edit the VM after it's lauched, but obvisouly that doesn't persist any operations and I also loose the ability to live-migrate14:47
dansmiththis seems like a straightforward spec.. does it need discussion?14:48
brinzhangyeah, that's need a spec14:49
sean-k-mooneywe had said it could be adress specless if we agreed the blueprint contianed the enough info14:49
sean-k-mooneyback in november14:49
sean-k-mooneybut if it needs a spec it would noe be hard to submit it and fill out the remaining parts of the template14:49
dansmithit adds two new extra_specs, image props, and some virt specific behavior..seems like a spec to me14:49
sean-k-mooneyok umbSublime if that is ok with you ill help you prepare that14:50
umbSublimesure this is fine with me14:51
huaqiang only allow to migrate on hosts with same TSC frequency?14:51
efried#agreed need spec for
brinzhanghuaqiang: I think so14:51
dansmithhuaqiang: isn't the tsc frequency specified in the flavor/image?14:51
dansmithhuaqiang: if you need to inspect something about the host like that, it will be a much larger effort14:51
huaqiangdansmith: I don't need it, just curious about the answer.14:52
huaqiangsome CPUs with differnt model has same TSC14:52
sean-k-mooneyhuaqiang: not the tsc frequecse is not the host tsc frequence14:52
sean-k-mooneyits the emulated frequency14:52
dansmithhuaqiang: I'm confused.. what happens if you migrate to a host with a cpu that isn't compatible?14:53
dansmithand how do you know?14:53
umbSublimeKVM does some math based on the TSC value presented to the VM and the one on the host. to present an invariant TSC to them VM even after migrating to another host with different base freq14:53
dansmithsean-k-mooney: right, I thought it was pure emulation14:53
dansmithright, okay...14:53
sean-k-mooneywell its usign
sean-k-mooneyanyway we can call that out in the spec i guess14:54
efriedNote that time is short here. In order to have a shot, I think the spec should be ready for serious review by start of business Tuesday for the review push14:54
efriedAny other open topics before we end?14:54
efriedOkay, thanks all.14:55
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"14:55
openstackMeeting ended Thu Feb  6 14:55:10 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)14:55
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