Friday, 2020-04-03

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slaweq#startmeeting neutron_drivers14:00
openstackMeeting started Fri Apr  3 14:00:37 2020 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is slaweq. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_drivers)"14:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_drivers'14:00
slaweqhi everyone :)14:00
slaweqlets wait few more minutes for njohnston haleyb amotoki and yamamoto14:02
mlavalle/me had a conversation recently with dalvarez. He agrees that slaweq "esta jodido con ese jefe"14:03
mlavallewhile we wait I might as well share14:03
slaweqok, we have quorum already so I think we can start14:04
slaweq#topic RFEs14:05
*** openstack changes topic to "RFEs (Meeting topic: neutron_drivers)"14:05
slaweqwe have 3 rfes for today14:05
slaweqfirst one is:
openstackLaunchpad bug 1592028 in neutron "[RFE] Support security-group-rule creation with address-groups" [Wishlist,Triaged] - Assigned to Roey Chen (roeyc)14:05
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njohnstonWow, that is quite an oldie14:07
mlavallewell, I resucitated it14:08
slaweqnjohnston: yes, but mlavalle told me that he is interested in doing that14:08
njohnstonI think it's a good idea; any sophisticated firewall system has the ability to construct these kinds of objects14:08
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mlavalleat my employer we want to implement it14:08
slaweqI think yamamoto has got valid question, he asked it in comment to this RFE14:09
mlavallewe would develop upstream and then use it in our internal deployments14:09
njohnstonIt would be especially good if they could be either global or tenant-local; in the private cloud scenario the ability for a central admin group to be able define IP blocks for common services is something I have seen a lot of pent up demand for14:09
mlavalleand the answer to yamamoto's question is most likely yes14:10
mlavallealthough I would have to dig deeper in our use case14:10
slaweqpersonally I don't think that such update would be more complex than now add of new port to same security group when 'remote_group_id' is used there14:12
slaweqYou need to update ipset on all hosts where this is used and IMO in this new case it would be similar14:12
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slaweqmlavalle: are You going to implement that only for iptables_hybrid driver or for others too?14:14
mlavalleI don't think our intent is implement it for the hybrid driver14:15
mlavallewe don't use the hybrid driver14:16
slaweqso only openvswitch driver?14:16
njohnstonI'm all right with that14:16
slaweqme too14:17
slaweqI would just want to clarify one more thing14:17
mlavalleI mean, is the way forward, right?14:17
slaweqin RFE there is written something like:14:17
slaweq"NOTE: For the purpose of the use-case above, the default allow-egress rules are removed ("zero trust" model) once the default sg is created."14:17
slaweqbut You are not going to propose removal of those rules from default groups?14:17
mlavalleno, keep in mind we are re-purposing an existing RFE14:18
mlavallethat clearly needs adaptation14:18
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njohnstonyeah, it was unclear to me why that would be a mandatory part of the proposal14:18
slaweqyes, I just wanted to make this clear as this would be pretty big backward incompatibility :)14:18
slaweqother than that I'm fine with accepting this rfe14:19
njohnstonI like this on a number of levels.  +114:19
slaweqbut we will also probably need spec with description of new API14:19
njohnstonyes definitely14:19
slaweqso +1 from me14:19
ralonsoh+1 from me (waiting for the spec)14:19
mlavalleyeah, we are fully expecting that the next step is a spec14:19
slaweqhaleyb: any thoughts?14:20
haleybi'm fine with it, +1 from me14:21
mlavalleok, thanks, I'll assign that RFE to me then14:21
slaweqok, so rfe approved, as a next step we are waiting for spec :)14:21
mlavalleand will write the spec14:21
slaweqthx mlavalle for revive this old spec14:21
njohnstonyes thanks mlavalle!14:21
slaweqso next one14:22
openstackLaunchpad bug 1869129 in neutron "neutron accepts CIDR in security groups that are invalid in ovn" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Jake Yip (waipengyip)14:22
slaweqthis one was reported as bug in ovn SG driver first14:22
slaweqbut then someone raised point that this is currently potential security issue e.g. in iptables driver14:22
slaweqand that we should fix it on API level14:22
slaweqso I wanted to discuss it here as potentially new rfe14:23
haleybso i did have a thought on this one, as it reminded me of another bug i fixed14:23
openstackLaunchpad bug 1582500 in neutron "icmp, icmpv6 and ipv6-icmp should raise duplicated sg rule exception" [Wishlist,Fix released] - Assigned to Miguel Lavalle (minsel)14:23
haleyb was the fix14:23
haleybin that case the SG api was changed to always force the SG rule to have a common name, can we just treat this bug similarly and change it to write the correct value to the DB?14:24
haleyband maybe have to change the RPC side as well, or fix the other drivers14:25
njohnstonI was thinking along similar lines to haleyb14:25
slaweqhaleyb: so if someone will set e.g. in rule, we will change it to
haleybslaweq: yes, use cidr.cidr from netaddr.IPNetwork()14:25
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haleybi realize the caller might notice the difference14:25
slaweqwe can add e.g warning in logs to tell at least to cloud admin that we did such convertion14:26
njohnstonyes, if the caller did "create rule with $ip/$mask; check for creation by listing groups and grepping for $ip/$mask" then we broke them if $ip gets converted.  Hopefully people don't use such antipatterns though.14:27
haleybright.  i haven't verified but if we allow and rules, fixing to use the network would also possibly fix a duplicate rule issue14:27
slaweqhaleyb: You mean this warning on agent's side?14:28
njohnstonI think the warning would be on the server side since we should do this conversion before we store it in the db14:28
yamamotodoes it solve the security concern? (i don't understand the security concern)14:29
* cgoncalves lurks and notices a potential Neutron stable API breakage coming14:29
haleybslaweq: would have to be a warning on the server side i think if at all, i can't remember if we warn for the icmp one i mentioned14:29
haleybcgoncalves: no, i want to leave the API alone and not start failing on these cidrs14:30
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cgoncalveshaleyb, IIRC you said you'd store in the DB the "good" CIDR so I expect the API to return it instead of the user-provided CIDR14:31
njohnstoncgoncalves raises a good point though, we should consider if "the ip you put in the rule is the same IP you expect to get out of the rule" is implicit in the api contract14:31
haleybi don't know, but we have precedence for doing this in the ipv6-icmp case14:32
ralonsohI wouldn't follow this path: we should not sanitize a CIDR (store the correct one in the DB) and don't fail14:33
haleybthe tempest SG case might notice this and fail though14:33
ralonsohbecause the user won't notice that14:33
slaweqyamamoto: security concern raised in comment #5 is that if user will set bad cidr in rule, he may open his SG for wider range14:33
ralonsohthis will really break the compatibility14:33
yamamotoslaweq: he will get what he specified, won't he?14:34
slaweqyamamoto: I would need to check it but according to c#514:34
haleybralonsoh: even if what we're actually enforcing is the "correct" cidr?14:34
ralonsohyamamoto, not depending on the backend14:34
slaweqsetting will end up with rule like "-A neutron-linuxbri-i4abb52c4-d -j ACCEPT"14:35
ralonsohhaleyb, yes because (1) now we'll probably have duplicated rules and (2) we must warn the user (or fail)14:35
cgoncalvesslaweq, human config error will always happen. it is not a security issue. the system does what it is told to enforce14:35
cgoncalvesslaweq, that is correct. there is nothing wrong with it14:35
njohnstonisn't that correct behavior for a 0 netmask?  why would you ever use a /0 netmask unless you wanted to open it up tot he world?  Working As Intended14:35
ralonsohcgoncalves, I don't agree, if we can detect that we should raise an exception14:36
slaweqnjohnston: cgoncalves TBH I agree with You - we can't prevent users from making any mistakes14:36
cgoncalvesralonsoh, it's a valid CIDR per the RFC14:36
haleybralonsoh: i think we would actually catch duplicate rules now as we'd actually use netaddr.IPNetwork(ip).cidr14:36
njohnstonI have used /0 netmasks before, but that was when I intended to expose a service tot he world14:37
cgoncalvesralonsoh, if you want to prevent that, sure, create a new API but don't touch the existing one14:37
mlavalleI lean towards to avoid getting in the mind reading business14:38
mlavallelet's do what the user is asking us to do through the API14:39
slaweqso it seems that with haleyb's proposal even, the only improvement would be that we would change what user send in request that he could see "correct" cidr in rule show14:39
slaweq>>> n = netaddr.IPNetwork("")14:39
slaweq>>> n.cidr14:39
slaweqbut still security "issue" would be the same14:39
ralonsohcgoncalves, and "" is not a valid CIDR14:40
ralonsohthe CIDR is
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cgoncalvesralonsoh, sure it is a valid CIDR14:40
haleyb>>> netaddr.IPNetwork('').cidr14:41
mlavalleahh, I see your point ralonsoh14:41
haleybno complaints from netaddr14:41
slaweqhaleyb: yes, I also checked that14:41
slaweqso it would have basically same effect in e.g. iptables as is now14:42
slaweqthe difference would be that user would see "correct" network address in rule get14:42
haleybi agree the /0 is an odd case, but really is user error if i'm remembering the last time we thought about it14:43
njohnstonI think the /0 case is unrelated to correcting the network address14:43
haleybslaweq: yes, it would behave the same in iptables, and maybe fix OVN?  what to do about old rules in the OVN case?14:43
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njohnstonI got disconnected so let me replay the last couple of lines I sent:14:44
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njohnstonso back to the core issue here, it looks like OVN only accepts the network number when specifying a CIDR as opposed to any IP in the network, and that is not standard behavior.  I think that if OVN has this incompatibility, does it impose a significant efficiency penalty for OVN to handle it within the OVN driver code?14:44
slaweqfor ovn - we can simply do such convertion on driver's level and left all in db like it is now14:44
haleybnjohnston: ack, i think we'd need to fix something in OVN if even just to deal with existing rules14:45
haleyband fyi, the API says this for remote_ip_prefix - "The remote IP prefix that is matched by this security group rule."14:46
slaweqso basically the main question here is: do we want to fix it on ovn driver's level for ovn that it will work with our current API, or do we want to change API/DB and make it works for all drivers in same way?14:46
mlavalleif the latter, wouldn't we have a backwards compatibility issue?14:47
haleybslaweq: i think we have to fix OVN regardless14:47
slaweqmlavalle: IMO with latter we will have some api change14:47
mlavalleyeah and then wouldn't we incur in backwards compatibility issue?14:48
slaweqso my proposal is to fix/change it in ovn driver and add maybe some warning in API ref that this should be network adress, otherwise it will be converted to network address by driver14:48
haleybmlavalle: do you mean at the API level?14:49
mlavalleI'm just trying to explore the implications14:50
haleybit depends on if we think changing the cidr in the rule to be what we're enforcing vs what was in the POST is ok14:50
haleybwe do tweak it for ipv6-icmp and noone's noticed14:51
mlavalleso far at least14:51
* haleyb crosses fingers14:51
slaweqbut for cidr it may be noticed faster IMHO14:51
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mlavallethat's true14:52
haleybi wonder if tempest checks, it definitely fails with the API change, and that enforcement could be a bigger backwards-compat issue14:55
njohnston_WRT /0 I think we have traditionally not been in the business of preventing users from shooting themselves in the foot14:56
slaweqhaleyb: seems that is comparing rules' ids :)14:56
haleybnjohnston: no, the gun is loaded14:56
njohnston_I could imagine creating a new exception “you asked for a rule with an IP specified but a net ask of /0; to request a wide open rule you must specify”14:57
slaweqnjohnston_++ for such api change :)14:58
haleybnjohnston: yes, that would be ok with me (or use "any" which is also a synonym)14:58
slaweqok, we are almost on top of hour so we need to finish here for today14:58
slaweqI will summarize this disussion in comment to the LP bug14:59
slaweqand we will get back to it next week14:59
slaweqfine for You?14:59
haleybyes, thanks14:59
cgoncalvesNate's suggestion is not backward compatible14:59
slaweqok, thx for attending and have a great weekend (at home mostly)15:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"15:00
openstackMeeting ended Fri Apr  3 15:00:13 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:00
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njohnstonsorry, I got disconnected there.  Replaying the last couple things I said:/quit15:29
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