Tuesday, 2018-07-03

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mihalis68#startmeeting ops-meetup-team14:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  3 14:02:03 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mihalis68. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ops-meetup-team)"14:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'ops_meetup_team'14:02
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mihalis68I'm not sure if there's anyone here.14:02
mihalis68ohai14:02
jamesmcarthur_O/14:02
smcginniso/14:02
mihalis68as some of you saw, I closed the poll, collected the results and posted them to the mailing list14:03
smcginnisInteresting results too.14:03
mihalis68those responding are interested in the event, in a 5-day stint, and having the ops events first so they can also join the dev teams14:03
mihalis68by a strong majority14:03
smcginnisNot surprising most said they planned to attend since those that don't plan on it are not likely to complete the survey.14:03
mihalis68Sean is that a reasonable summary?14:03
smcginnismihalis68: Yeah, I think so.14:04
mihalis68I agree that the respondents were self selecting14:04
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mihalis68I am also surprised that they want ops events first14:04
shintarohi14:04
smcginnisYeah, that leaned a different way than I expected too.14:04
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jamesmcarthurThanks mihalis68 for organizing this!14:05
smcginnis++14:05
mihalis68survey monkey worked well, but my idea of possibly paying for it was rapidly dropped. The non-free tiers are expensive!14:05
jamesmcarthurI’ll work with kendallwaters today to get the schedule updated with the operators added to the schedule.14:05
mihalis68I don't know if there's a fully free alternative14:05
mrhillsmano/14:06
mihalis68if anyone would like to see the output, I captured it as a pdf but I felt that sharing that to the internet might be considered copyright infringement, not sure14:06
mihalis68I can email it to anyone though14:06
smcginnisI think infra might have actually been toying with hosting our own survey platform.14:06
jamesmcarthurSurvey Monkey is losing a lot of business too because they aren’t GRDP compliant14:06
mihalis68One ops meetups location question was resolved with a doodle poll14:06
mihalis68surveys.openstack.org feels like it would be a good thing to exist, but then again I try not to invent work for other people14:07
mihalis68closing that and sharing results was one action I had14:07
mihalis68another one was picking up the thread about the 3 docs that operators are looking to pick up14:08
mihalis68Sean actually helped out in a big way there. I need to get my gerrit creds so I can start poking about there14:08
mihalis68thanks for that sean!14:08
mihalis68oh yeah...14:08
mihalis68#topic actions14:09
*** openstack changes topic to "actions (Meeting topic: ops-meetup-team)"14:09
smcginnisNo problem! If someone wants to take a look:14:09
smcginnishttps://review.openstack.org/57894614:09
mihalis68mihalis68 to close the poll and share the results - complete14:09
mihalis68mihalis68 to pick up the docs thread - in progress14:09
mihalis68anyone else wish to report on actions (we use an honor scheme now, nobody will chase you for your actions)14:09
mihalis68#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ops-meetups-team14:10
mihalis68today's agenda as always14:10
mihalis68pretty skimpy today (I blame this heat)14:10
mihalis68ok. Moving on14:10
mihalis68#topic PTG14:10
*** openstack changes topic to "PTG (Meeting topic: ops-meetup-team)"14:10
mihalis68I think we've answered the questions that the foundation had about the ops part. Is that correct Jimmy?14:11
mihalis68There was brief discussion about facilities, but they amount to : one large room with a screen and capability for laptop hookup, good wifi, seats, power14:11
mihalis68that's about it14:11
jamesmcarthurYes sir14:11
smcginnisAnd semi-secluded hallway with round tables for side conversations.14:12
mihalis68yes, good point14:12
mihalis68the next thing I think the ops meetups team needs to tackle, then, is the technical agenda14:12
mihalis68the challenge will be that "our" days are also the cross-team parts of traditional (non-ops-focused) PTG14:13
mihalis68I'll be honest, I don't have a feel for how this works right now14:13
mihalis68I think we did establish last week that we'll view this one as a single track, 2-day event14:14
smcginnisI guess we can start by collecting and brainstorming topics.14:14
mrhillsmani would not think of previous ptg sessions on the first two days as non-ops-focused or even dev-focused as they are just whatever you want focused14:14
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mrhillsmanthat being said, there are ops focused sessions that need to be had in the tradition of the ops meetup14:15
mihalis68I wasn't saying that. I was just saying previous PTGs weren't ops-inclusive14:15
smcginnisHow the ptg has worked with the development team side so far as there is a list of topics and maybe an preliminary order that the topics would be discussed in, but no specific scheduled times for the topics.14:15
smcginnisThat allowed longer discussions to keep going and shorter ones not to waste time.14:16
smcginnisAnd new topics that pop up during those discussions to get included in where it makes sense.14:16
mihalis68is that how days 1 and 2 worked?14:16
mihalis68not having been to one, this is new to me14:16
mrhillsmanare there any sessions based on past ops meetups that are for sure shoo-ins?14:16
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smcginnisTo keep everyone informed what is currently being discussed there is an IRC PTGBot that takes commands and updates a web page that people can reference to see where they should be.14:17
mrhillsmanor must haves anyone can think of?14:17
emccormicko/14:17
mihalis68I can say that long-term support, upgrades and docs were popular14:17
mrhillsmani think there will be some explaining to be done rather than just putting out there on the list as before, here's an etherpad, drop session ideas14:17
smcginnisSo the ops team could also use that, and also check there if there are any other cross-project subjects that we may want to break for to be able to run over and sit in on14:17
mihalis68and then many incarnations of containerisation14:17
mihalis68hi emccormick14:18
emccormickhiya. Apologies for the tardiness.14:18
mihalis68in case you didn't see, the poll is closed and ops prefer to have ops sessions in days 1 and 2 and then be able to attend dev team sessions14:18
emccormickI saw that. Can't say I agree with it, but I saw it ;)14:19
mihalis68I can think of two extremes here. One we "dissolve" the ops meetup into the establish community planning process for days 1 and 214:19
mihalis68the other we plan an ops silo as if people will attend that all day 1 and day 2 and not go to the other events14:20
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emccormickThat's why I thought it better to have the ops "silo" later in the week14:21
mihalis68I think I'd like to understand how planning for those days has been done - maybe take a look at PTGBot14:21
mrhillsmanfrom my understanding of the ptg, sounds like we have one dedicated room, the large one, and there should be sessions, two days worth, of hey, we want to def have these as an ops community14:21
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mrhillsmanthen in keeping with the way the ptg operates there's opportunity to schedule available space for something14:21
mihalis68here's my concern. If we completely ignore other stuff going on during those days, we may create a lot of work for ourselves trying to make a comprehensive "ops meetup" event for that room, and then a lot of the operators will be torn between that and all the other stuff such as SIGs14:23
mrhillsmanlike, oh, these 12 folks of various day-jobs (op, dev, pm, etc) want to further talk about or spark new conversation about x14:23
emccormickSo the short of it is, we still need to go through our normal collection, review, and scheduling process14:23
emccormickfor the big room14:24
emccormickand then the "parlor" or whatever it was called is for those types14:24
emccormickthe ad-hoc PTGbot things14:24
jamesmca_emccormick: it's basically just a small room that holds 30 people14:24
jamesmca_So there is a 100pax and a 30pax room.14:24
emccormick*nod*14:24
mrhillsmanso, what i mean is like, that big room is open for all right, but there are some sessions that def should be had to speak to the keeping the ops meetup14:25
jamesmca_That big room is specifically reserved for Ops14:26
mrhillsmanwe've hashed that out quite a bit over the past months14:26
jamesmca_For as long as you all want it14:26
jamesmca_Both rooms, actually14:26
mihalis68the 100 and 30 the are both earmarked for ops?14:26
mrhillsmansorry, i mean for all sessions that we get from ops community14:26
jamesmca_Yes sir.14:26
mrhillsmanyep14:26
mihalis68how is the planning done for the rest of PTG on days 1 and 2? Is there a doc I can read?14:27
jamesmca_mihalis68: if you all decide you'd like to extend to all or part of another day, just let us know and we'll reserve it.  But the 2 days specifically are reserved just for Ops14:27
jamesmca_mihalis68: one sec, i'll send it14:27
mrhillsmanthe 2 spaces for the 2 days are specifically reserved for ops is what you mean yes?14:28
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mihalis68yes14:28
jamesmca_mrhillsman: yes, correct14:28
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jamesmca_mhalis68: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-operators/attachments/20180628/bb5c0e18/attachment-0001.png14:29
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jamesmca_The schedule itself is pretty fluid and project dependent.14:29
jamesmca_Some projects set out bullet points to cover each day, or each part of the day.  Others keep a very tight schedule.14:30
jamesmca_For the case of Ops, you can organize however best suits your needs14:30
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jamesmca_I would check out some of the etherpads developing for the projects14:31
mihalis68yeah, we know how to organise a 2 day event in isolation. What I'm struggling with is how to make that mesh with other things happening on the same days at the same location (if in different rooms)14:31
mihalis68for example, just to make something up. If we did a ceph session for ops, and then there was a ceph sessions for other PTG attendees, should they merge?14:32
mihalis68I'm with emccormick in that this is not how I expected the community to vote14:32
smcginnisThat's really the reason for the ptgbot. To find out if there are other sessions going on that are of interest.14:33
emccormickAlso, given the placement of the upgrade sig in that diagram, and given that that is the biggest operator pain point, it'd be kind of silly to overlap the meetup with that14:34
mihalis68Thanks for the picture, jamesmca14:34
emccormickThat could be the #1 most productive room in the whole week14:34
mihalis68I feel like people who plan to help plan the ops meetup need to cogitate on the structure already shown and work out a way forward14:35
emccormickWe may just need to benevolently dictate on that one ;)14:35
mihalis68I don't suppose there's anyone here who wishes to be the benevolent dictator for our part of this event? :)14:35
emccormickI nominate Chris!14:36
emccormick:D14:36
smcginnis:)14:36
mihalis68I'm not sure I should take that role this time. We are going to be extraordinarily busy between now and then14:36
spotzshoot I'm late!!!!14:36
emccormickI've had a lot of trouble making meetings lately. Not sure I"m the best choice either. I'm happy to herd the cats as much as I can though.14:37
emccormickHi spotz!14:37
smcginnisSo we all agree spotz is in charge of that? :)14:37
emccormick+114:37
mihalis68we can try team-work for now. As it gets nearer, though, my experience is someone needs to take ownership14:39
mihalis68we can see how it goes for now14:39
spotzI can definitely help but time is always a limit for me:(14:39
smcginnisYeah, let's start with topic brainstorming. Then we can figure out scheduling once we get a little closer and have topics.14:39
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mihalis68agreed14:39
mihalis68I think we start with a simple etherpad for that right?14:39
smcginnisI think that works well.14:40
spotzOne comment after reading the scroll back though, I think ops wants the silo as that's how life generally is in companies and they want to have something of their own and not be swollowed by dev14:40
mihalis68and then we implore the list to add more and/or +1 existing entries14:40
mihalis68yes I think we'll start by assuming a completely silo'd day, but then tactically merge just individual sessions when they truly are ops-critical14:40
mihalis68such as upgrades14:40
mihalis68if I'm summarising erik's point correctly?14:41
mihalis68and hey maybe the way the merge works is inviting the devs into our romper room?14:41
mihalis68I've got it! Arrange the room like a battlefield, one side ops, one side devs. Have stirring debate AND NERF GUN WAR!14:42
jamesmca_+114:42
mihalis68just kidding on that!14:42
spotz+1, and I definitely think we need to encourage forse folks to get together at least 1 night14:42
mihalis68yep14:42
mihalis68so we need the benevolent dictator AND a social secretary. Got it14:43
spotzAnd mixed teams for a nerf war actually isn't a bad idea...14:43
spotzBut yes both wouldn't be a bad idea14:44
mihalis68dev teams turn up with an incredibly complicated high tech nerf gun. It works for 2 minutes and is then obsolete. ops try to keep it working for another 9 years14:44
mihalis68again just kidding folks. I think I'm high on pollution, pollen and the heat14:45
emccormickduct tape ftw14:45
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mihalis68I'll volunteer to make the etherpad and seed it with the obvious stuff14:45
mihalis68#action mihalis68 to kick off the topic selection etherpad for the PTG ops days14:45
mihalis68I will share on the operators list and to the regular attendees here directly14:46
mihalis68Erik do you want to take on a first pass to identify possible session-merge ideas?14:47
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mihalis68one question for I guess jamesmca : what's the commute like from the ops rooms to the other rooms?14:47
mihalis68would we need to allow any travel time?14:48
smcginnisDepending where the other session is, could take a few minutes from what I remember of this venue.14:48
emccormicksession merge ideas as in combined ops / dev sessions?14:48
mihalis68ok good to know14:48
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mihalis68yeah, you already said we should join the upgrade one14:49
mihalis68upgrade sig, to be exact14:49
emccormickI can give it a go14:49
mihalis68cool14:49
mihalis68#action emccormick to look for possible session-merge candidates, such as upgrade sig14:49
mihalis68I don't have anything for the other agenda topics14:50
spotzsmcginnis: Do you remember how close rooms were? Cause I don't think they're gonna really put OPS far away to segregate14:50
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smcginnisspotz: From the map, this is on the far side of the hotel.14:50
smcginnisThe hotels not that big, so that's fine, but still a little walk between this and the rest of the sessions.14:51
spotzbah, so at most a 5 minute walk14:51
smcginnisYeah, probably.14:51
mihalis68I just want to not make the mistake of having ops join a non-exclusively-ops session but all barging in 7 minutes after it gets going14:51
mihalis688 minutes left14:52
smcginnisFashionably late.14:52
emccormickI think once the PTG etherpads start to coalesce it will present specific opportunities for us to pop in as well.14:53
spotzWell we can plan on our sessions ending a few minutes early, won't mean folks won't be late to ours but that would allow a walking buffer to the others?14:53
emccormickoften times I see them broken down into subtopics with a time attached to them within the etherpad14:53
jamesmca_The rooms are still really close. I wouldn't think more than a couple of minutes14:53
jamesmca_That hotel is pretty small unless you have to go from first to third floor14:53
mihalis68I'm partially thinking of Vancouver Convention Center which is big enough to have long commutes in same building14:53
emccormickso there may be some of those sections to be cherry-picked as ops-friendly14:53
jamesmca_It is no Vancouver Convention Center14:54
mihalis68yeah, I said that as in I may be seeing problems that aren't real14:54
mihalis68so we'll get a topic etherpad going and look for what other sessions we might join, so meet again next week same time slot?14:55
smcginnisNice cozy hotel for sure.14:55
mihalis68is it going to snow us in?14:56
mihalis68I DO HOPE SO14:56
smcginnis:)14:56
spotzI'd like snow....14:56
spotzjamesmca_: Make that happen!14:56
smcginnisIt's kind of like it was in Dublin, just without the actual trapped part.14:56
emccormickIF I see it coming, I may or may not head for the nearest ski resort14:56
mihalis68ok I will assume meeting next week and do outlook invites again14:57
mihalis68in the meanwhile 3 minutes left14:57
emccormickthey always have a competition out there to see who can get open first.14:57
mihalis68#topic any other business14:57
*** openstack changes topic to "any other business (Meeting topic: ops-meetup-team)"14:57
smcginnisNo more topics from me.14:58
mihalis68ok then. Thanks everyone. Good meeting14:58
spotzSorry I was late!14:58
mihalis68#endmeeting14:58
*** openstack changes topic to "Discussion of topics related to operating Openstack infrastructures at scale | Mailing list: http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-operators | Logs: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/"14:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  3 14:58:25 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)14:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ops_meetup_team/2018/ops_meetup_team.2018-07-03-14.02.html14:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ops_meetup_team/2018/ops_meetup_team.2018-07-03-14.02.txt14:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ops_meetup_team/2018/ops_meetup_team.2018-07-03-14.02.log.html14:58
smcginniso/14:58
emccormicko/14:59
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med_and I somehow missed this meeting even though I was logged in.15:08
med_I'm 0 for 2 this week (but in both cases I actually had IRC open.)15:09
* med_ reads the friendly scrollback.15:09
smcginnisI wonder if we should add a ping list to the agenda etherpad.15:10
smcginnisThat's worked well for me in other meetings since I'm always on but sometime lose track of where I'm supposed to be.15:10
smcginnisIt at least adds a chance of a notification getting my attention.15:11
spotzping list would definitelly help me15:14
smcginnisAdded to etherpad.15:24
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med_thanks Sean.15:32
* med_ just needs to push it back into his work calendar15:32
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mihalis68I can add you to an exchange-based calendar invite. I do that for the core team15:32
mihalis68ping list is very good idea too. Will endeavour to do both15:33
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mrhillsmanapologies, had a call i had to take15:48
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