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| ttx | I just W+1 the series, we can always roll back if that was a terrible idea | 09:12 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: Remove DragonFlow from aclfixer exceptions https://review.openstack.org/575133 | 09:23 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: update validation to support eol tags https://review.openstack.org/575463 | 09:23 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: make new-release support eol tags https://review.openstack.org/575464 | 09:23 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: protect against errors from the hound API https://review.openstack.org/575508 | 09:24 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: make sphinxext support eol tags https://review.openstack.org/575546 | 09:25 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: mark tripleo deliverables for newton EOL https://review.openstack.org/575465 | 09:25 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: add import-eol-tag subcommand to edit-deliverable https://review.openstack.org/575736 | 09:25 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: bypass validation checks when tags exist https://review.openstack.org/575828 | 09:25 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: allow setting tarball-base once in the repository-settings https://review.openstack.org/576527 | 09:25 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: import newton-eol tags https://review.openstack.org/575737 | 11:30 |
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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/releases master: aclfixer.py: Remove entry for Chef https://review.openstack.org/573713 | 11:56 |
| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/releases master: aclfixer.py: Remove exceptions for TripleO repos https://review.openstack.org/573729 | 11:56 |
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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/releases master: aclfixer.py: Remove heat-cfntools from exceptions https://review.openstack.org/576829 | 12:01 |
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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/releases master: aclfixer.py: Remove murano-apps from exceptions https://review.openstack.org/576831 | 12:04 |
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| ttx | dhellmann, smcginnis: wanted to discuss/decide how much we want to handle externally-released deliverables like Chef cookbooks or Juju Charms. Let me know when you have a minute in the upcoming 2.5 hours | 12:29 |
| smcginnis | I'm around. | 12:33 |
| ttx | ok let's see when dhellmann can join | 12:34 |
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| dhellmann | tonyb , smcginnis , ttx: yeah, I think we were ready for the eol stuff to go in | 12:53 |
| smcginnis | Think they're all through now. | 12:53 |
| dhellmann | ttx, smcginnis : give me 10 minutes to make breakfast before we talk about external deliverables? | 12:53 |
| smcginnis | Sounds good. | 12:54 |
| ttx | sure | 12:54 |
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| * dhellmann returns, toast in hand | 13:01 | |
| ttx | OK let me introduce the topic, it's toast-compatible | 13:02 |
| smcginnis | ttx, dhellmann: So to recap, these things are kind of cycle-trailing, but they have different deliverable requirements than our normal packages? | 13:02 |
| ttx | smcginnis: hmm, taht's not how I would present it | 13:02 |
| ttx | Basically, we have a bunch of things where people collaborate in an openstack project team, but where the release process is externally-managed | 13:03 |
| ttx | mostly because the publication of the deliverable ends up being domain-specific | 13:03 |
| ttx | So the question is more, how much do we want to get involved in that | 13:04 |
| ttx | We have two options | 13:04 |
| smcginnis | OK, seems like another way to say what I said. :) | 13:04 |
| ttx | We can channel them toward openstack/releases and at least use our automation to tag/create branches | 13:04 |
| ttx | or we can consider them exceptions | 13:04 |
| ttx | Personally I'm leaning toward the latter, after carefully considering the options | 13:05 |
| ttx | Since we don't publish their releases, another website/system/tooling does | 13:05 |
| ttx | so they do not really belong in releases.o.o | 13:05 |
| ttx | so they don't really belong in openstack/releases | 13:05 |
| smcginnis | Each one has their own unique deliverable/packaging needs, right? So it's not really too feasible for us to add handling for each specific one. | 13:05 |
| dhellmann | ideally the publishing steps would be automated, so they're not depending on a single person's credentials somewhere | 13:05 |
| ttx | dhellmann: yes, and if they want to do that on openstack infrastructure, we should help them | 13:06 |
| ttx | but I'm not sure there is value in forcing them to go through openstack/releases if all they need from us is the ability to create a branch | 13:06 |
| dhellmann | but I agree, if we can define a class of these sorts of projects that we don't need to manage then I'm fine with leaving them on their own or at least making using the releases repo optional | 13:06 |
| smcginnis | ++ I agree. | 13:07 |
| ttx | So the remaining question is, how do we mark them as "externally-released" | 13:07 |
| dhellmann | I do want to somehow try to describe that class of projects, though, so we can be clear on the "boundaries" | 13:07 |
| ttx | First, obviously that should only be an option for those things that actually plug into a whole different ecosystem | 13:07 |
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| smcginnis | They could still use releases if they want to have the tagging and tar'ing automated, knowing they will then do something else on their own for their specific needs. | 13:07 |
| ttx | like teh Charm store or the Chef $library | 13:07 |
| dhellmann | we could add a page to releases.o.o using an rst file that describes the project and links to whatever hosting service they're using | 13:08 |
| ttx | In particular that should definitely not be an option for main "OpenStack" deliverables | 13:08 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ++ | 13:08 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: I like that idea. | 13:09 |
| ttx | My original idea was to split deliverables in projects.yaml into 3 types, but that might be a bit destructive | 13:09 |
| smcginnis | Did we used to have something for Puppet Forge? https://forge.puppet.com/openstack/cinder | 13:09 |
| ttx | deliverables -> things that are released through releases.o.o | 13:09 |
| ttx | external-deliverables: things taht are released, but via some other mechanism | 13:09 |
| dhellmann | the deliverable files are things we need to update frequently, but these don't feel like they would fit that | 13:09 |
| ttx | other-repos -> things that are not really deliverables, like -spec repos | 13:09 |
| ttx | BUT that would break a lot of existing tooling for little gain | 13:10 |
| dhellmann | I'm thinking we just need info like "Chef Cookbooks are available in the Kitchen at $link" | 13:10 |
| ttx | although I like the idea of haviong a single list of "other-repos" for project teams | 13:10 |
| smcginnis | An external-deliverables group might be nice. They could just submit patches with their released versions and URL or instructions of where to get them, then our docs builds can pull that info in somehow to display on a separate cycle deliverable section or page. | 13:11 |
| ttx | dhellmann: If we end up doing a deployemnt-tool specific landing page udner openstack.org/software, that blurb could belong there as well | 13:11 |
| dhellmann | ttx: sure. though it would be nice not to duplicate info, and just link from one to the other (in either direction) | 13:11 |
| ttx | smcginnis, dhellmann: we can certainly refine the thing as we go -- my main concern is what do we do right now to mark them | 13:12 |
| smcginnis | Or yeah, more static pointers works well too and would be less of an exception case for their release process to have to remember to go update the releases repo for each manually processed release. | 13:12 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : I'm not even thinking of listing versions. Those hosting services have their own navigation options, so we should be able to just make a list one time and be done. | 13:12 |
| ttx | Currently they are just exceptions and just appear nowhere, so anything would be an improvement really | 13:12 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: That's probably more scalable. | 13:12 |
| ttx | i don't want to embark into a 6-month effort to properly mark them | 13:12 |
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| dhellmann | let's ask those teams to provide a blurb and link(s) to go on this page | 13:13 |
| ttx | Just listing them in aclfixer.py sounds like a bit too little :) | 13:13 |
| smcginnis | One yaml file, deliverable, location, starting cycle, last cycle. Sphinx extension to pull that in and list external deliverables for each cycle? | 13:13 |
| dhellmann | after we have 2-3 of them we can create the page and then as others come in we can add their details | 13:13 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : no, just a simple rst file | 13:13 |
| ttx | dhellmann: we could add them all to an "externally-released" directory under openstack/releases yes | 13:13 |
| smcginnis | Thinking the yaml file would be a way we can have a central spot that can generate the right things for each release without one of us needing to research what's available for Stein. | 13:14 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : this data won't change though, right? | 13:14 |
| smcginnis | Avoiding listed (just as a theoretical example) if Charms weren't available for Rocky yet, then the yaml file wouldn't be updated to show Rocky and it wouldn't show up on the list. | 13:15 |
| ttx | There might be more than the 3 we identified. The ones we identified are those that used tagging and branching. But some others just don't even use that | 13:15 |
| smcginnis | Since some of these may not be available for some time after the release. | 13:15 |
| ttx | Arguably Packaging-RPM is another "externally-released" | 13:15 |
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| smcginnis | Then would we want to list deb packages too? | 13:16 |
| ttx | smcginnis: I would make it cycle-independent | 13:16 |
| ttx | smcginnis: deb packages: not under releases.o.o | 13:16 |
| smcginnis | My problem with cycle-independent is a given cycle may not have that external deliverable (yet or ever). | 13:16 |
| dhellmann | I thought the point of this was that we weren't going to worry about that | 13:16 |
| ttx | smcginnis: sure. they use whatever cycle makes sense in their ecosystem | 13:16 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ++ | 13:16 |
| ttx | Charms use their own cycle, tied to Ubuntu release cycle | 13:17 |
| ttx | and that's good for them | 13:17 |
| smcginnis | Are we talking about under https://releases.openstack.org/ or something under https://releases.openstack.org/rocky/index.html ? | 13:17 |
| ttx | I would do it under https://releases.openstack.org/ | 13:18 |
| smcginnis | OK, I thought the proposal was for the latter. In that case, I think a static page with no additional information is best. | 13:18 |
| ttx | Like have a link to/list of "externally released deliverables" theer | 13:18 |
| dhellmann | we have https://releases.openstack.org/independent.html today and I'm thinking of that as a parallel (although not the content) | 13:18 |
| ttx | We could also punt completely and let the landing page I mentioned above handle it | 13:18 |
| dhellmann | https://releases.openstack.org/externally-managed.html or something | 13:19 |
| smcginnis | Would make sense to link it under https://releases.openstack.org/#series-independent-releases as a second bullet I think. | 13:19 |
| ttx | I would avoid "independent" since it's loaded | 13:19 |
| smcginnis | Series-Independent Projects, Externally Projects - something along those lines. | 13:19 |
| dhellmann | maybe a separate section just under that one? | 13:19 |
| ttx | right | 13:20 |
| smcginnis | Aren't they also series-independent though> | 13:20 |
| ttx | I'm saying we could leave that up to the landing page under www.o.o/software because we are entering a grey area there | 13:20 |
| ttx | Like for example deb packages, which are no longer produced on our infra but arguably still close to our community. Should we really not be mentioning them at all ? | 13:21 |
| smcginnis | I think if we are mentioning RPMs, we should mention debs. | 13:21 |
| ttx | A "deployment tools" landing page could mention them and link to them | 13:21 |
| smcginnis | End consumers aren't going to know or care who is managing those. | 13:21 |
| ttx | a release.o.o page, not so much | 13:21 |
| ttx | smcginnis: right | 13:21 |
| ttx | so should we really start listing the whole ecosystem under releases.o.o | 13:22 |
| smcginnis | It's a good point. | 13:22 |
| ttx | or leave that to a more "ecosystemy" page | 13:22 |
| smcginnis | ttx: So you are proposing getting a static page added to https://www.openstack.org/software/ to list these things instead? | 13:22 |
| ttx | smcginnis: yes, we are working on one anyway | 13:22 |
| ttx | listing all the options to deploy openstack | 13:23 |
| ttx | I don't think we'd stop at the ones developed in house | 13:23 |
| smcginnis | I'm good with just having that. If we aren't managing the releases, then not really under our domain. | 13:23 |
| smcginnis | And that would make them discoverable and available for consumers looking for the software under the broader page. | 13:23 |
| smcginnis | ttx: ++ | 13:23 |
| ttx | we are doing it anyway. The question is whether we want to duplciate that work under releases.o.o | 13:24 |
| ttx | for completion reasons... | 13:24 |
| smcginnis | I vote no. I think https://www.openstack.org/software/ is probably a better or more likely place for people to discover these things. | 13:24 |
| ttx | or of only because we will likely be able to do it faster... | 13:24 |
| dhellmann | I don't think we want the info duplicated, so if we're going to put it on w.o.o we could just link to it from the releases site | 13:24 |
| smcginnis | releases.o.o is kind of jumping deeper into the weeds for someone that isn't aware of these things. | 13:25 |
| ttx | that's fair yes | 13:25 |
| ttx | releases.o.o, to me, list the releases we handle as a community' | 13:25 |
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| ttx | openstack.org/software is more of an informative website for those who want all options listed | 13:25 |
| dhellmann | that seems like a good place to draw the line | 13:25 |
| ttx | OK, so how about: | 13:26 |
| ttx | 1. We list such ACLs into the aclfixer.py exception list so that they don't trigger on our checks | 13:26 |
| ttx | 2. We defer to a "deployment tool" landing page to point users to where those artifacts are published | 13:27 |
| ttx | 3. We might want to somehow mark those in projects.yaml so that we know they are externally-released | 13:27 |
| smcginnis | +2 | 13:27 |
| ttx | in order of decreasing urgency | 13:28 |
| dhellmann | projects.yaml where? in the governance repo? | 13:28 |
| smcginnis | Are there issues today with not having 3? | 13:28 |
| ttx | dhellmann: that's where we list deliverables | 13:28 |
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| ttx | (yes, in governance repo) | 13:28 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : mostly I get confused when we have "exceptions" to rules, so I'd either like a clear "classification" or some sort of indication that I can use to figure out for a given deliverable whether it's something I need to be concerned with | 13:29 |
| ttx | (3) is last because it's a bit of a mess to balance human readability and backward compatibility there | 13:29 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: That's fair. | 13:29 |
| dhellmann | in this case I think "it is published to some other software archive" is probably an easy enough rule for me to keep straight :-) | 13:30 |
| ttx | I know how the data should be, but we'd have to change a lot of tooling that ingests projects.yaml today and assumes everything is a deliverable | 13:30 |
| smcginnis | Of course, this also raises the question of if we are not managing the releases and they are doing their own thing, should those repos/projects even be listed as governed in projects.yml in the first place. | 13:30 |
| dhellmann | ttx: oh, so you're not thinking of a tag? | 13:30 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : the main point of the governance list is voting rights | 13:31 |
| ttx | dhellmann: let me show what I had in mind | 13:32 |
| dhellmann | ok | 13:32 |
| ttx | http://paste.openstack.org/show/723927/ | 13:34 |
| ttx | Assuming everything is a deliverable creates a lot of noise in that file | 13:34 |
| ttx | while for things like specs, docs, or externally-released repos it does not make a lot of sense | 13:35 |
| smcginnis | Or should we just add a new tag under tags: release:external | 13:35 |
| ttx | smcginnis: that's really a convenience tag for us, not sure it conveys much information to anyone else | 13:36 |
| dhellmann | reorganizing the data would be ok. I might combine "extenally-released" into "other-repositories" but I can see having them separate. That's going to break quite a few things, though. | 13:36 |
| ttx | yeah, that's what I meant by balance human readability and backward compatibility there | 13:36 |
| ttx | That paste is the most human-readable | 13:36 |
| ttx | but also the most backward incompatible | 13:36 |
| smcginnis | The benefit from using the tags is we already handle processing those. Would be easy to have a validation check to make sure that tag is not present in a release request. | 13:37 |
| ttx | the tag approach gets the marking done but creates a lot of extra noise | 13:37 |
| dhellmann | if we put some code in the governance repo to let consumers of that file not care about the format, and released that as a library, then we could treat the library as the API instead of the data file | 13:37 |
| smcginnis | And it may be interesting information for others to know it's delivered differently than other OS deliverables. | 13:37 |
| ttx | smcginnis: look at the chef YAML entry, you'd have to add the tag to 20+ repos, adding 40+lines | 13:37 |
| ttx | all so that you can explain that it's not us releasing it | 13:37 |
| smcginnis | Would we have the case where a team has some repos managed by us and some not? | 13:38 |
| ttx | That's just hurting my OCD too much | 13:38 |
| smcginnis | :) | 13:38 |
| ttx | smcginnis: yes | 13:38 |
| ttx | I could see that happening | 13:38 |
| dhellmann | as soon as we say it won't, it will | 13:39 |
| ttx | yeah, I see no reason why the "team" concept" would align nicely with how externally-released some of their deliverables are | 13:39 |
| ttx | even if there is no example now | 13:40 |
| ttx | anyway, we don't need to solve (3) today | 13:40 |
| smcginnis | True | 13:40 |
| dhellmann | the openstack_releasese/governance.py module would make a good start for an openstack-governance library that we could reuse for the releases and elections repos | 13:40 |
| ttx | yeah, been on my plate for a while to actually create an API that would let us balance file format readability and backward compat | 13:41 |
| ttx | I guess that's the bane of human-readable data files | 13:42 |
| dhellmann | heh, yeah | 13:43 |
| ttx | It's all nice until someone uses them | 13:43 |
| ttx | OK, thanks for your input. I'll track that in a StoryBoard entry | 13:43 |
| dhellmann | so do you want to file storyboard stories for these things? | 13:43 |
| dhellmann | jinx | 13:43 |
| dhellmann | ok | 13:43 |
| smcginnis | Sounds like a good plan. | 13:44 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: Release keystoneauth 3.9.0 https://review.openstack.org/576634 | 13:47 |
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| ttx | Oh, and this "ability" would be limited to things in the "deployemnt/lifecyclemanagement" bucket, + maybe the "adjacentenablers" bucket | 13:50 |
| ttx | (map-wise) | 13:50 |
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| ttx | hmm, i could see SDKs in the openstack-user bucket potentially happening one day | 13:51 |
| ttx | but let's not go there just yet | 13:51 |
| smcginnis | I was thinking about SDKs too. | 13:52 |
| ttx | It's all about how much they end up touching other ecosystems, raelly | 13:52 |
| smcginnis | I don't want to "bless" any specific SDKs, but I do think it would be useful for folks that get to that software page to be able to discover what their options are for say Java or Go. | 13:52 |
| ttx | let's keep it to deployment right now | 13:52 |
| smcginnis | ++ | 13:53 |
| ttx | (A SDK "landing page" is also in the works) | 13:53 |
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| ttx | OK, done @ https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2002624 | 13:57 |
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| smcginnis | 👍 | 14:01 |
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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/releases master: aclfixer.py: Remove exceptions for TripleO repos https://review.openstack.org/573729 | 14:23 |
| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/releases master: aclfixer.py: Remove heat-cfntools from exceptions https://review.openstack.org/576829 | 14:23 |
| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/releases master: aclfixer.py: Remove murano-apps from exceptions https://review.openstack.org/576831 | 14:23 |
| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/releases master: aclfixer.py: Document standing exceptions https://review.openstack.org/576874 | 14:23 |
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| dhellmann | smcginnis , ttx: maybe the tags we need are which bucket a deliverable is in on the map? | 14:24 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: yeah, we keep on circling around that... One issue is that I want the map to be opinionated and a marketing/upstream exercise, which is why we are handling it at staff-level right now | 14:26 |
| ttx | So I fear that documenting it in governance would turn it into an governance issue | 14:27 |
| ttx | placing us back to square 0 and being unable to produce one for 7 years | 14:27 |
| smcginnis | It would be nice to automatically have that map generated. | 14:28 |
| dhellmann | ah, yeah | 14:28 |
| ttx | smcginnis: same. Turns out tuning that map is a design exercise | 14:28 |
| ttx | But I can see how that conflicts long-term if we start building rules around buckets | 14:29 |
| ttx | So I've been avoiding that discussion so far :) | 14:29 |
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| ttx | I'd rather have it be a thing first, rather than optimize prematurely | 14:29 |
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| smcginnis | ++ | 14:30 |
| ttx | But I can definitely see us documenting it in YAML somewhere | 14:30 |
| ttx | and at some point if we make critical decisions based on it, have some kind of TC approval on it. Or at least on the parts that affctes TC decisions | 14:31 |
| ttx | In the mean time I'd like to see the map the consequence of governance and policy rather than the other way around | 14:31 |
| ttx | But I'll admit the difference is subtle :) | 14:32 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: aclfixer.py: Remove exceptions for TripleO repos https://review.openstack.org/573729 | 15:25 |
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| openstackgerrit | Rico Lin proposed openstack/releases master: Release heat-translator 1.1.0 https://review.openstack.org/576895 | 15:38 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/releases master: cliff 2.12.1 https://review.openstack.org/576897 | 15:52 |
| smcginnis | ricolin_: Did you want me to wait for Bob to see that release? | 15:53 |
| smcginnis | Too late. :) | 15:55 |
| dhellmann | oh, sorry | 15:57 |
| ricolin_ | smcginnis, :) | 15:57 |
| ricolin_ | dhellmann, it's fine | 15:57 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : that cliff release will unblock the tacker team | 15:58 |
| ricolin_ | at least like Bob to be awared of it | 15:58 |
| smcginnis | OK, have it open and just waiting for zuul results. | 15:58 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: Release heat-translator 1.1.0 https://review.openstack.org/576895 | 16:13 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: cliff 2.12.1 https://review.openstack.org/576897 | 16:21 |
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| openstackgerrit | Lance Bragstad proposed openstack/releases master: Release python-keystoneclient 3.17.0 https://review.openstack.org/576978 | 20:53 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/releases master: Release python-keystoneclient 3.17.0 https://review.openstack.org/576978 | 23:08 |
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