Wednesday, 2017-09-27

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samueldmqmordred: hmm gotcha11:40
samueldmqso this lack of interoperability in content is caused by the lack of data standardization (e.g images name) across multiple clouds11:41
samueldmqthat's not practical, not all clouds can/want to follow the same standards for data within the cloud, just for the sake of interoperability11:43
samueldmqwhen we say interoperability at technical level (i.e API versions, etc) it's up to us, devs to ensure that11:43
samueldmqbut when it's data, it's up to the cloud providers ...11:43
samueldmqmordred: I don't know how much you agree with this, but this is certainly a good conversation11:43
samueldmqthis is another perspective I didn't have before11:44
samueldmqmordred: that might be what is called syntactic vs semantic interoperability12:00
samueldmqand shade does both12:00
mordredsamueldmq: yes, that's right (syntactic vs. semantic)12:02
mordredsamueldmq: I also think there are semantic issues where it's a problem because there isn't an API-level construct offered12:02
mordredsamueldmq: using the image example, it's partially a problem because image metadata is almost entirely provider-defined12:03
samueldmqmordred: yes. and shade does post-facto interoperability, i.e after openstack was running we noticed the gaps and started filling them12:03
mordredso there is no image metadata field for "operating system"12:03
mordredsamueldmq: yup12:03
samueldmqmordred: agreed. semantic things could have been addressed with well defined syntactic standards (like exposing metadata and querying by metadata)12:04
samueldmqthat would be possible if interoperability was taken seriously (defining open standards) since the beginning, but no, it;s post-facto in our case12:05
samueldmqmordred: that's an interesting observation12:05
mordredexactly - and at this point in some places pushing such things into the syntactic level is harder - image metadata has been arbitrary and deployer-defined for 7 years now - how do we impose stricter standards?12:05
mordredsamueldmq: incidentally, one of these is in keystone ... "what auth plugins does this cloud use?" :)12:06
samueldmqmordred: aha. that's cool12:06
samueldmqmordred: thanks for the examples, I am starting to correlate the issues with the formal definitions, which is great12:07
samueldmqthere is so much in this interoperability world12:07
samueldmqmordred: maybe one of the keys for interop is discoverability. and looks like openstack misses a bunch of this12:10
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mordredYES12:16
mordredsamueldmq: I bet we could define various levels of interoperability or something - you know, like a thing that has the exact same API both semantically and syntactically is perfectly interoperable - but is also not particularly flexible to handle different use cases12:18
mordredthen as things introduce more flexibility, they lose interoperability unless they add corresponding discoverability12:18
samueldmqmakes sense, we need to "plaster" things a bit with strict open patterns to make things interoperable12:19
mordredof course, then you could reach a point where there actually is no defined api because everything about the api is discoverable (sort of like key-value pairs vs. sql schema)12:19
mordredsamueldmq: ++12:20
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samueldmqmordred: 2 ways for interoperability then: "plastered" apis that follow strict standards12:22
samueldmqor... do allow flexibility (depending on operator install and config choices), but allow for discoverability12:22
samueldmqthe latter would still require shade though. since you'd need to make those choices transparent to end users12:23
samueldmqthe former is harder, but is fully interoperable, by definition. shade would not be needed12:23
samueldmqkey-value + discoverability is the extreme case for the latter, i.e too flexible12:24
samueldmqI think we are on the same page12:25
mordred++12:29
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