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| ttx | Some refreshed contribution data. Between July 2015 and June 2016 (arguably our peak year) we merged 262 commits per day. Between July 2016 and June 2017, we are at 259 commits per day. Obviously each team is following a different trajectory (up and coming projects growing, stable projects steadily declining), but overall it's more a plateau than a decline. | 11:42 |
|---|---|---|
| ttx | http://imgur.com/a/WYubu | 11:42 |
| ttx | Teams struggling the most recently are Designate, Searchlight, Trove, Murano. Keystone also shows some decline | 11:44 |
| dims | ttx : not too bad | 11:44 |
| ttx | lbragstad: would you say the current activity levels in Keystone are sustainable ? | 11:44 |
| RuiChen | dhellmann: | 11:45 |
| ttx | dims: also worth noting that growth on the "overall" graph was generally driven by new team addition | 11:45 |
| RuiChen | hi dhellmann, I want to add the release-model of project into the release page, do you think it make sense? | 11:46 |
| RuiChen | now I can get it from yaml file of each project, but I think it's convenient for guys to show project release model in web page | 11:50 |
| ttx | RuiChen: more a discussion for #openstack-release | 11:50 |
| RuiChen | ok | 11:51 |
| ttx | RuiChen: I answered to you there | 11:54 |
| RuiChen | ttx: thank you, I saw your reply | 11:55 |
| cdent | ttx: it might be interesting to model the commit graph without added projects | 12:01 |
| cdent | that is pick a point in the past with N existing projects and compare that with those same projects, now | 12:01 |
| ttx | yes, would be good to limit that graph to a set of projects | 12:03 |
| ttx | I'll try to do that | 12:03 |
| ttx | like the compute:starter-kit for example | 12:03 |
| ttx | cdent: such a graph would likely peak and decline. Most projects saw a -15% to -25% YoY decline | 12:07 |
| cdent | yeah, that would be my expectation too, but seeing the slope of the graph would be illumunating | 12:07 |
| ttx | See refreshed data @ https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/9tRLELrJNm | 12:08 |
| cdent | that data looks like a job for ethercalc | 12:08 |
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| lbragstad | ttx: we certainly took a hit - yes | 14:03 |
| lbragstad | ttx: we have several initiatives that are well thought out - but we don't have the bandwidth to implement them | 14:04 |
| lbragstad | i'm not sure if that will change after more of the dust settles from the fallout this last spring | 14:04 |
| ttx | lbragstad: ok, that's good info re: bandwidth | 14:19 |
| ttx | So not really a survival issue, more of a problem to make progress on new features | 14:20 |
| lbragstad | ttx: the biggest bottle neck i noticed was at the forum during the API keys discussion | 14:20 |
| lbragstad | most everyone in the room agreed on the need for API keys - but we don't have anyone with time to do the work. | 14:21 |
| lbragstad | we have a few initiatives in that state at the moment | 14:21 |
| * smcginnis turns on the office light | 15:00 | |
| ttx | o/ | 15:00 |
| fungi | ooh, in the office now! | 15:00 |
| * cdent sits in a comfy chair | 15:01 | |
| ttx | wanted to quickly discuss next steps for goals | 15:01 |
| dtroyer | o/ | 15:02 |
| ttx | Looks like we have champions for both, although I don't personally know Chandan Kumar | 15:02 |
| ttx | shuld we poke sdague or mtreinish to make sure they shadow him? | 15:02 |
| smcginnis | Shadows are good. | 15:03 |
| ttx | In other news, in the above analysis searchlight appears to be struggling a bit -- does anyone have a clear view of where it's headed ? It feels like it's not really on track to become a base service, in which case it might be a distraction ? | 15:07 |
| cdent | I seem to recall that some of the main participants evaporated in the last crisis | 15:09 |
| cdent | and there were concerns in nova-land for building a reliance on it | 15:09 |
| ttx | It's the issue with base projects like searchlight or barbican. You need to push them to widespread adoption, or drop them, there is no try | 15:11 |
| cdent | well, if we insist on having projects instead of "openstack", we'll have that... ? | 15:12 |
| smcginnis | cdent: Fair point. | 15:14 |
| cdent | it may be fair, but itsn't particular helpful or useful, sadly | 15:14 |
| dtroyer | However we are organized, when we lose the people who intended to do a bit of work we lose that capability. If the searchlight folk had been part of Nova directly, we'd be in the same boat. | 15:15 |
| dtroyer | (ignoring the other reasons to split projects up) | 15:15 |
| cdent | indeed. | 15:16 |
| dtroyer | What it seems we are really lacking is the ability to depend for a semi-long period on (new) projects. | 15:16 |
| fungi | i honestly don't quite see how one openstack vs disconnected projects solves that particular dilemma | 15:16 |
| cdent | it wasn't about solving | 15:16 |
| cdent | it was about the forces that lead to it happening | 15:16 |
| cdent | many of the people I talk to think they work on a project | 15:17 |
| cdent | and many of the employers i talk to hire people to work on a project | 15:17 |
| cdent | not on openstack | 15:17 |
| cdent | as someone hired to work on nova, it would be challenging for me to say "I need to work on searchlight because we need it in nova" | 15:17 |
| fungi | forces that led to splitting searchlight out of horizon, or the forces that led to rackspace laying off most of their openstack upstream devs? | 15:17 |
| dtroyer | in the last two years I've seen firsthand the difference between a startup mentality (we work on openstack) and the corporate mentality (bodies working on specific goals) | 15:18 |
| smcginnis | dtroyer: +1 - there's a big difference in attitude and willingness to even look at other things. | 15:19 |
| cdent | mentality is a good word for it | 15:19 |
| cdent | well that seems to have depressed the mood a bit | 15:22 |
| cdent | my point was that we need to come around to some positive ways of adjusting the mentality | 15:23 |
| cdent | the top 5 thing is a probably a start | 15:23 |
| ttx | cdent: I hope championing will help too | 15:23 |
| dtroyer | that attitude is pushed down from managers trying to meet their weekly/monthly goals. to be fair, they also sometimes want to move devs from one project to another as the corporate strategy changes, so the idea of one project only isn't there, it's just "go do this and nothing else" for any given time | 15:23 |
| ttx | if we spin it as very positive | 15:23 |
| cdent | but probably doesn't do a lot for long term embedded contributors | 15:23 |
| smcginnis | The top 5 does have a positive impact I think. I know of some vendors that look at that as a way to justify reallocating resources. At least temporarily. | 15:24 |
| dtroyer | the greater problem is ensuring the long-term health and stability of those things we (now) need to be around | 15:24 |
| * dims reads scroll back | 15:25 | |
| ttx | thingee will post a superuser article soon, now that the glance one merged | 15:25 |
| dtroyer | I do think the champions will help, especially if we grow a class of experienced champions that get to know the decision makers at our sponsoring companies and can help them understand priorities | 15:25 |
| cdent | how should one counter the argument of "well, if nobody wants to do the work, maybe it doesn't matter?"? | 15:26 |
| dtroyer | with a reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons? | 15:26 |
| cdent | i don't mean it quite in that way | 15:27 |
| smcginnis | Maybe by making sure we spell out what it brings to OpenStack that would be missing otherwise? | 15:27 |
| cdent | for instance openstack has got along in a mostly working state for a few years with no barbican | 15:27 |
| cdent | so someone could say "why fix that?" | 15:27 |
| ttx | cdent: arguably one could say openstack is not fully secure as a result | 15:28 |
| ttx | so it's missing a feature, in several places | 15:28 |
| dtroyer | how is that different from asking why we still support Xen when the deployment on the survey is <10% (5% even?) | 15:28 |
| ttx | sometimes nobody does the work because everyone waits for someone else to do it | 15:29 |
| dtroyer | ttx: that is what I was getting at | 15:29 |
| cdent | can barbican be marketed as a security fix (instead of a feature)? | 15:30 |
| ttx | Large service providers like IBm or Red Hat are used to throwing resources at strategic issues | 15:30 |
| cdent | (barbican contribution, I mean) | 15:30 |
| ttx | but as we transition to a more user-driven contribution base, contributing tactically will become the norm | 15:30 |
| ttx | we need to actively work on fixing that | 15:31 |
| ttx | Back in 2011-2012 we had the same prblem, with the startup crowd | 15:31 |
| ttx | we had golden years in 2013-2016 where the orgs sustaining our contribution base happened to understand the value of contributing strategicallyt | 15:32 |
| ttx | Now we need to go back at explaining again | 15:32 |
| dtroyer | like it is the old "stop taking the meds because I feel better" and wondering why you don't feel better later | 15:32 |
| dtroyer | we should probably always keep explaining some things at a low level all of the time | 15:33 |
| fungi | i agree, though remembering to explain them when they're not in your face due to a problem can be challenging | 15:34 |
| cdent | Maybe we've already had the mental shift, but if not we probably need to have it: the golden years were not normal and not common for open source-like things | 15:34 |
| ttx | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7SYiZuTj_c wow I feel young again | 15:34 |
| ttx | It's the famous video where markmc and I showed up with the same shirt | 15:34 |
| smcginnis | Who is that young looking guy. :P | 15:35 |
| dims | :) | 15:35 |
| fungi | a fashion tragedy to be sure. it was the talk of the conference | 15:35 |
| smcginnis | ttx: Actually... I think you look the same. | 15:35 |
| ttx | smcginnis: I was always old | 15:35 |
| smcginnis | Hah! | 15:35 |
| dtroyer | cdent: right, and that's a lesson the k8s and others on the upswing of the hype train crowd might want to pay attention to sooner than later (they may be already, I don't know) | 15:35 |
| cdent | the takeaway from that is that _voluntary_ strategic orientation may be hard to come by | 15:36 |
| fungi | which brings us back around to finding ways to encourage more of it (top five, community goals, et cetera) | 15:40 |
| cdent | yeah, I guess the word "voluntary" is not what I meant. Perhaps "spontaneous" | 15:41 |
| cdent | more directed guidance a good thing | 15:41 |
| fungi | i wonder if the new contributor portal work could be leveraged to help steer contributors down less specialized paths | 15:43 |
| dims | fungi : ttx : cdent : have you seen this? http://k8sport.org/ (checkout the video) | 15:44 |
| cdent | fungi: that's a good idea, it's certainly seemed in the past that onboarding was oriented towards choosing a project to join | 15:44 |
| cdent | dims: that's interesting, perhaps, but I'm not a good judge of such things. I _hate_ being gamified, incentivized, ranked, etc. | 15:49 |
| cdent | the challenges idea is perhaps a useful way to get enaged | 15:49 |
| dims | cdent : not advocating, just sharing :) | 15:49 |
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| cdent | but I think, really, if we want engaged devs what we really need is for openstack to be something that's more accessible and useful to devs | 15:49 |
| ttx | dims: it feels a bit too much between on-boarding, training and actually triggering contributions | 15:50 |
| ttx | Like they give a badge for a number of Pull requests. There is only so much typo patches I can take on a calm day | 15:50 |
| smcginnis | :) | 15:51 |
| cdent | we've got plenty of devs (like me) who write a lot of in the guts code but rarely use openstack, and plenty of people who use openstack but rarely get the chance to write lots of code | 15:51 |
| dims | :) | 15:51 |
| ttx | dims: but there are good things in there. Some of the work on the contributor portal replicates that | 15:52 |
| ttx | like setting up your first steps | 15:52 |
| ttx | The interesting part is the Rewards area | 15:53 |
| ttx | we kind of do that with contributors discounts | 15:54 |
| ttx | But then I'm with cdent, I must be too old to appreciate the gamification systems | 15:55 |
| * cdent is definitely old | 15:56 | |
| ttx | My experience of those is that they work for a time and then fail completely | 15:56 |
| ttx | usually way before they pay up the time invested on them | 15:56 |
| ttx | https://opensource.com/business/16/9/gamify-or-not-gamify-community -- who remembers "Ubuntu Accomplishments" ? | 15:58 |
| fungi | it's not that i'm tool old to appreciate gamification (and i do play plenty of video games in my limited spare time), but i've seen first hand what gamification (intentional or emergent) does to communities over time | 16:13 |
| fungi | s/tool/too/ (though i am a tool sometimes too) | 16:13 |
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| mordred | lbragstad: btw - api keys is totes on my plate - it's just down a few in the queue | 20:46 |
| lbragstad | mordred: ack - thanks for the update :) | 20:48 |
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| thingee | ttx: ack glance goal merged | 22:08 |
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