Thursday, 2017-07-27

openstackgerritMatt Riedemann proposed openstack/governance master: Update py35 goal status for nova
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: charms: Add deployment guide
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Remove nonexistent deb-mistral-dashboard
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Remove 'Big Tent' mention from licensing reqs
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Removing api-site and faafo from doc team repo list
*** sdague has joined #openstack-tc09:55
*** cdent has joined #openstack-tc10:34
*** marst has joined #openstack-tc14:33
* smcginnis takes a seat in the corner15:00
* cdent waits for smcginnis to flip the sign15:00
* smcginnis gets back up and flips the sign15:01
fungiooh, the tc is IN!15:01
fungii need a better font on this machine15:01
smcginnisttx is getting fancy now15:02
smcginnisdhellmann: +1 :D15:02
fungigranted, i'm on the patio, looking out across the water and stoking the grill getting ready to smoke a bunch of sausages... i shouldn't complain about font15:02
* dims waves15:03
ttxQuick braindump on the recent trip to Asia in general and China in particular15:03
fungiooh, yes please15:03
ttxWe had lots of questions on how to become a TC member15:03
fungithat one has a surprisingly simple answer15:03
ttxI explained that since it's ruled by popular election, becoming a very visible, useful and respected member of the community was a prereq15:04
ttxfungi: simple for us, not necessarily intuitive for them15:04
smcginnisMy impression was the TC in general was something not really well known there.15:04
ttxI tried to generalkly give the advice of reaching out to PTl and saying "how can I help you"15:04
fungiahh, good point, not all cultures have a tradition of electoral systems15:05
ttxexplained that offering help/offload tasks is more useful than any direct contribution15:05
dhellmannI think we're going to have to be very active in identifying potential candidates and helping them find opportunities to contribute in a way that will give them a shot in elections if we want to build a real pool of leadership talent15:06
ttxChinese culture is very much into ranking, getting to the next level and receiving appreciation15:06
dimsttx : "we have x number of people in TC" is some sort of status symbol. i've been fighting to correct that15:06
ttxdims: yes that ^15:07
fungidims's progression "ladder" idea may be useful there15:07
ttxFor example they say "He is TC" rather than "he is a TC member"15:07
dimsi keep telling everyone that i can be as effective (if at all) in getting things done whether i am a TC member or not15:07
dimshard for that message to get across15:08
dimsright fungi15:08
smcginnisdims: +115:08
fungithough at the same time, it would be disingenuous to give the impression that there is any sort of hierarchy of elected positions, or that any of us is more important than someone else just because of that15:08
ttxyes, a ladder could help I think. We also need at the very least to give some form of recognition to people tacking useful things (the top-5 list, championing goals, etc.)15:08
dhellmannttx: what was your impression of the response to suggesting that they dive in and start helping?15:09
ttxfungi: yes, the risk is in artifically crating a hierarchy15:09
ttxdhellmann: the reaction felt like "Oh! That's easy"15:09
dhellmannwell that's refreshing15:09
dhellmannit sure beats "I'm not allowed" or "I'm not given time"15:09
smcginnisI was also trying to encourage actvity on IRC. I would love to come in in the morning and see that there were a lot of good conversations over night.15:10
fungii tend to think that if there is a "ladder" it reaches from new contributor/user/operator to a nebulous cloud of core reviewers, liaisons and elected positions15:10
dims++ smcginnis15:10
ttxIn other news, like I mentioned yesterday the sync meetings have been consistently mentioned as a pain point15:11
smcginnisI definitely was hearing the same.15:11
ttxI witnessed first hand how difficult it is to feel part of the community activity while being in that timezone15:11
ttxno meeting, little IRC activity, limited infra presence15:12
sdagueyeh, we need to get people less alergic to doing real conversations in email :)15:12
fungiptl (for a few more weeks) hat on, i've been trying to make sure that outcomes from most of our in-meeting discussions are to start an ml thread. that seems to be working well enough15:12
dhellmannand also to learn to write shorter emails15:12
ttxInterestingly, they love the idea of meeting F2F, they just wish those would happen more often in areas where it's easy for them to travel to15:12
ttxThey understand that forging direct contacts is important15:13
smcginnisdhellmann: +115:13
ttxIn terms of tooling, being in mainland China for 4 days only confirms my conviction that we need to rely on simple communication tools, avoid Google tooling which is very difficult to access15:14
smcginnisExtremely difficult.15:14
fungiinfra root sysadmin coverage in various timezones is of course a challenge... i would gladly mentor additional sysadmins who express an interest15:14
ttxI'm almost for banning Hangouts at this point15:14
ttxI know it's a bit unfait15:14
smcginnisCompletely locks them out.15:14
fungilocks me out too, unless i compromise my ideals15:14
smcginnisMaybe we should come up with a list of recommended collaboration tools or something.15:15
ttxTwitter was inaccessible for me. Slack and Skype worked OK, though, which raises interesting questions15:15
dimsttx : everyone was on wechat15:15
ttxyes, no question about that15:16
dimseveryone there15:16
ttxWechat really rules there15:16
mtreinishttx: it depends on a bunch of factors15:16
sdaguewe definitely need something that's got video in any recommended list15:16
mtreinishwhen I was there last month my cell provider was routing youtube traffic through malaysia (it did the same thing with hangouts)15:16
ttxsdague: yeah, I think we need to offer a counter-offer15:16
mtreinishbut hotel wifi was a no go15:17
cdentIt sounds like we are reponding to “sync meetings are bad” with “here are some other tools for sync meetings"15:17
sdaguethat can be used from lower bw areas, one of the reasons hangouts got used was that folks in australia couldn't use straight web-rtc15:17
smcginnisfungi: Is zoom OK for you?15:17
ttxsmcginnis: I doubt that.15:17
ttxmtreinish: yes, data from US SIM cards let you access ~everything15:17
sdaguebecause the bw management on web-rtc fell over on their links15:17
smcginniscdent: I think it's more of - if we need something sync, what can we use that doesn't lock certain groups out.15:17
dimsmtreinish : ttx : employees mostly don't take their work laptop home from what i heard. so folks who work with us usually have their own and access from home15:17
ttxmtreinish: doesn't mean they can access15:18
funginow if only we could get wechat addresses to stop spamming our ml -owner addresses15:18
dhellmanncdent : I thought it was more "here are some options for ~f2f" but yeah15:18
mtreinishttx: no I agree, and we shouldn't assume they can15:18
mtreinishttx: I was just saying the connectivity thing isn't as clear cut as X doesn't work in China15:18
fungiright now anyone with a address can't contact -owner on a number of our major mailing lists15:18
ttxIn other news, we have lots of new users in China, some pretty impressive ones15:19
ttxSome cool ones, like China Railways high-speed train network running train positioning and traffic on openstack15:19
lbragstadthat's cool15:19
ttx(fwiw their high speed train network is already larger than the rest of the world combines)15:19
ttxThey plan to build a Beijing-London line15:19
* dims digs up links to photos 15:20
ttxOn the technical side, most of the complains I geard are for old users still running Juno or before15:20
fungiif we need something sync, irc is far superior to anything which involves non-native english speakers listening to a bunch of people talking over each other, whether it has pretty pictures or not15:21
fungithe impression i get is that for sync communication, text is still better than the alternatives15:21
ttxfungi: yes, they just find that the discussion goes fast on IRC, but video hangout is even faster15:21
dimsbunch of links to pictures etc - if anyone is interested15:22
fungiso the knee-jerk reaction of "sync communication is a challenge for some people, let's replace irc with video chat" is counter-prouctive15:22
smcginnisdims: ;)15:23
dimsfungi : right15:24
ttxfungi: i think video chat can be useful for team building, like open discussion at the end of a text meeting15:24
ttxbut beyond that, drawbacks probably beat benefits in terms of inclusion15:24
smcginnisI think it was appreciated the number of Foundation staff that were able to attend.15:24
ttxI think it's a very good experience to go at lest once there15:24
* fungi puts on a more fancy hawaiian shirt for the on-camera open discussion portion15:24
smcginnisfungi: LOL15:25
* ttx can't type today. Blaming keyboard adjustment15:25
smcginnisfungi: Yout dress Hawaiians vs your casual Hawaiians? :)15:25
dimsttx : can the foundation start/maintain an "official" wechat group?15:26
sdaguefungi: disagree, video transfers a ton of information about who is understanding things or not15:26
smcginnisThey are all on it now. :)15:26
ttxdims: yes it's in the cards15:26
sdaguethere is no active feedback on whether any irc listeners are understanding what is said15:26
dims++ ttx15:26
dimssdague : bandwidth is very bad...15:27
sdaguedims: I definitely understand all the challenges15:27
sdaguebut I want to rebut: "if we need something sync, irc is far superior to anything which involves non-native english speakers listening to a bunch of people talking over each other, whether it has pretty pictures or not"15:27
sdaguebecause I think it's factually wrong15:27
cdentI think the facts are hard to pin down15:28
cdentit is definitely the case that different people, no matter where they are, have different preferences and challenges when it comes to communication15:28
cdentI personally find video to be the worst option in email, irc, in person, audio, video15:29
dimssdague : all the k8s meetings are hangouts/zoom, not many people have their camera on15:29
fungisdague: i have enough of a challenge understanding people in irc, it's helpful to be able to reread things later to improve my understanding. that's far harder with voice or video chat15:29
cdentbut I know plenty of people who feel otherwise15:29
smcginnisI think it's good to have alternative options though.15:29
sdaguedims: yeh, conf calls (be they in some other tech) I would agree are not very useful (again you lose that feedback bit)15:29
fungii guess the point is that irc has an additional async component which recorded voice discussions are not so great for15:30
ttxThat is all the insights I have at this stage, maybe some more will come to me once I'm no longer jetlagged15:31
cdentttx: did you get any sense from the “new big users” that they were or were not aware of their opportunities to contribute?15:31
fungii also have the added challenge of high latency and poor bandwidth a lot of the time, which makes even voip a challenge much less video streaming, but i'll grant that's mostly only the case in the developing world and maybe we care less about encouraging participation in places like that?15:31
ttxAs usual, lots of positive community energy received at the OpenStack Days15:31
fungi(irc and e-mail are very low-tech-friendly)15:32
ttxThey were all 1000+ attendees things15:32
smcginnisMy impression from some was OpenStack was a product they receive, not something they are part of. Though that is changing.15:32
ttxsmcginnis: yes, lots of work to do there15:32
cdentsmcginnis: yeah, that gets to the guts of my question15:32
sdaguesmcginnis: is that the same or different than interactions with other open source things?15:33
dimsttx : the other feedback i got was to prepare everything ahead of time (not wing it!) in terms of putting things in powerpoint or email or something else, before a meeting. so it's easier for those who are not native speakers to prepare a response or concern15:33
smcginnisBut still questions like "Can we get the roadmap for the next year+" that need some education.15:33
sdaguelike is it specific to openstack, or is it generally that way15:33
sdagueregardless of project15:33
smcginnissdague: Probably the same.15:33
dims++ smcginnis. "give me the list of features you are developing"15:33
fungiyeah, i wonder about the extent to which those organizations already participate in other free software projects15:33
ttxOpenStack has great momentum in China, so some users are coming to it just because everyone else is, not for specific values15:34
fungior whether we're the gateway to free software participation for them15:34
smcginnisttx: Right - for some it's the only cloud option.15:34
smcginnisttx: So use isn't driven by any sort of open source ideals.15:34
ttxwhich is great, but means we have a lot of education work to do15:34
cdentCan someone remind me: the joint meeting with the board is the day before the PTG, yes?15:36
cdentIs there any in progress work which needs to be attended to before then?15:36
smcginniscdent: Yes on date, not sure on work.15:37
ttxcdent: yes, and they expect progress on the "work streams" we defined in March15:37
dhellmannI have that meeting down for 9:00 AM on the 10th15:37
ttxso if you are part of one of the workgroups, good to sync with your teammates15:37
cdentttx: are we tracking those workstreams somewhere?15:37
ttxthere MUST be an etherpad15:37
ttxwhich MIGHT be linked from a wiki page15:38
smcginnisGood luck searching for it. :)15:38
ttx has group members15:38
cdentetherpads have such fatal flaws15:39
dhellmann has a bunch of links for that group15:39
ttxeach group SHALL have other documents I suspect15:39
dimsttx : too many specs? (MUST/MIGHT/SHALL) :)15:40
* cdent approves of ttx’s RFC typing mode15:40
ttxI made multiple references to the TC office hours that are in China-friendly time, and encouraged people to show up and ask questions15:40
cdentas all that predates my membership, if anyone wants some help/input/whatever in a group, let me know15:41
ttxI'm pretty sure thingee would not mind someone else in the "simplification" group15:41
dhellmanncdent : it sounds like one area of help would be pulling together those links15:41
fungittx: awesome! the 01:00 wednesday hour has been very quiet most weeks so far :/15:41
cdentdhellmann: apparently so15:41
fungiyeah, thingee sort of just threw himself on the simplification one because there were no volunteers to take it on, or even help him with it15:42
*** hongbin has joined #openstack-tc15:48
fungiawesome, we managed to fill up 2/3..3/4 of the hour with heated discussion. i call success16:00
smcginnisNot bad.16:01
*** hyakuhei has quit IRC17:02
*** hyakuhei has joined #openstack-tc17:02
*** hyakuhei has quit IRC17:02
*** hyakuhei has joined #openstack-tc17:02
*** notmyname has quit IRC17:43
*** notmyname has joined #openstack-tc17:44
*** cdent has quit IRC21:12
*** lbragstad has quit IRC22:08
*** openstack has joined #openstack-tc22:44
*** lbragstad has joined #openstack-tc22:47
*** hongbin has quit IRC23:03
dhellmannhey, folks, I could use some opinions in this thread, please:
*** lbragstad has quit IRC23:12
*** sdague has quit IRC23:21

Generated by 2.15.3 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!