Tuesday, 2017-10-17

*** emagana has quit IRC00:02
*** emagana has joined #openstack-tc00:03
*** emagana_ has joined #openstack-tc00:04
*** emagana has quit IRC00:04
*** emagana_ has quit IRC00:08
*** kiswe has joined #openstack-tc00:58
*** kiswe has left #openstack-tc00:58
*** emagana has joined #openstack-tc02:20
*** tonyb has quit IRC02:36
*** tonyb has joined #openstack-tc02:37
*** lbragstad has joined #openstack-tc02:45
*** emagana has quit IRC03:04
*** emagana has joined #openstack-tc03:05
*** emagana has quit IRC03:09
*** rosmaita has quit IRC03:26
*** mtreinish has quit IRC03:42
*** mtreinish has joined #openstack-tc03:42
tonybandreaf: did you find your voting key?03:44
*** lbragstad has quit IRC03:58
*** emagana has joined #openstack-tc05:03
*** emagana has quit IRC05:11
*** gcb has joined #openstack-tc06:18
*** jpich has joined #openstack-tc07:37
*** eumel8 has joined #openstack-tc07:51
ttxjohnthetubaguy: could you talk directly with lbragstad to unblock https://review.openstack.org/#/c/500985/ ?08:37
ttxdhellmann: please confirm that you're fine with Kolla answer on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/500987/08:38
johnthetubaguyttx: ah, I lost track of that, I spoke to some horizon folks about that at OpenStack Days UK.08:39
*** dtantsur|afk is now known as dtantsur08:43
*** openstackgerrit has joined #openstack-tc08:52
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Add heat-dashboard to heat project  https://review.openstack.org/50416608:52
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Adding Contributor Guide as an official project  https://review.openstack.org/51064808:52
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Retired pylockfile  https://review.openstack.org/51075208:52
*** cdent has joined #openstack-tc08:55
ttxhttps://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Technical_Committee_Tracker updated08:56
openstackgerritRico Lin proposed openstack/governance master: Add heat planning and completion artifacts  https://review.openstack.org/51017908:58
cdenttc-members and everyone else, it’s time for an office hour09:00
cdentthe campaign question time had such interesting questions I wish it had gone on a bit longer09:01
ttxyes, a couple more days would have been nice09:02
ttxWe might want to encourage people to vote this week09:02
ttxespecially if some voting emails got lost in the spam folders09:03
ttxI have one topic for office hours this week09:03
gcbttx: agree , many people find vote email in junk mailbox09:04
ttxAlan Clark reached out to ask for agenda items for the Board+TC+UC meeting in Sydney09:04
ttxI already replied that another status update on the strategic workstreams might be overkill09:04
ttxgiven that we reviewed those in Denver09:05
ttxI suspect they will want to cover progress on the potential new projects09:05
ttxanyway, I'll start a thread on openstack-tc ML once the elections are over09:06
cdent(that reminds me, Denver and Sydney have felt far too close together)09:06
ttxyes, it's just hard to move the PTG into August or the Summit deeper in November/December09:07
ttxBerlin next year is a bit later09:08
ttxIn other news, Glare application was deferred by its author to Rocky, in order to avoid a close call09:09
ttxwhich I think is a good move09:09
ttxYou don't want to start on a conflicted foot09:09
ttxWould be great if we could close the Queens project team list this week (since it's Q-1 this week)09:10
ttxso please review our last standing candidate:09:11
ttxstill missing a couple of votes09:11
cdentttx: your comments about agenda items has me wondering: am I on the hook to provide updates on the developer satisfaction topic raised in denver or not? It was implied there that I might but since then it has become uncldear09:12
ttxcdent: if you feel like there are good lessons in that feedback we got, I would say yes09:14
ttxNot on the hook, but if you're willing to follow up I think we can carve some time in the meeting to do that09:14
cdentI’d like to. I’ve not had a chance to do much analysis yet, but there’s probably at least a tiny summary that could be done.09:15
*** sdague has joined #openstack-tc09:17
* gcb has a topic to discuss, is there a topic like Open Discussion ?09:18
cdentgcb: it’s always open discussion in office hours09:19
cdentso feel free to go ahead09:19
gcbokay thanks09:19
gcbJonathan propose a  plan to manage new projects,  in short word , openstack foundation will host more Non-OpenStack projects09:20
gcbin  last board meeting09:20
ttxIt's not how I would present it, but yes09:21
gcbabout the TC, will form other Non-OpenStack TCs09:21
ttxI'd rather say "host other open infrastructure efforts that are compatible with OpenStack without trying to fit them awkwardly in a single product called openStack"09:22
gcbttx: yeah, focus on open infrastructure09:22
ttxWe made a lot of effort including things that are not a great product fit just because they are interesting and produced by our community09:23
ttxthe result was a very confusing OpenStack including things like Tacker09:23
ttxI see "let's not call everything we produce OpenStack" as a way to refocus the product/framework on its essentials09:24
ttxBut yes, that's being discussed09:24
ttxOn the TC side, good governance requires that leadership is representative of its constituency09:25
gcbttx, just remind TCs to review the proposal09:25
ttxso if the new projects or strategic areas are substantially different, letting them have their own representation sounds desirable09:26
ttxgcb: totally! Actually it was posted on a thread on openstack-tc09:26
ttxto raise attention09:26
gcbttx: ack09:26
ttxIt is a significant change (at least as significant as the Big Tent change) and there are multiple ways to get it wrong09:27
ttxPersonally I see it as an opportunity to fix a number of things that have plagued us, but if done wrong it has potential to hurt09:28
ttxSo yes, wide feedback is desirable09:28
ttxgcb: are you coming to Sydney?09:29
cdentI think it is pretty clear that how it is talked about is going to be a very big deal, Many people will think of it as “openstack foundation will host more Non-OpenStack projects” not “host other open infrastructure efforts that are compatible with OpenStack without trying to fit them awkwardly in a single product called openStack”09:29
gcbttx: yes09:29
ttxcdent: yes, I agree. And the first project they are considering is not helping in that area09:30
cdentwhich is?09:30
ttxThings in container infrastructure space09:31
ttxwith the potential to be seen as entering CNCF pivate territory09:31
ttxeven if it's not, it has "container' in it09:32
* cdent senses backstories and backchannels ...09:32
ttxI feel like if the first thing considered was NFV enablement, the story would be simpler to sell, that's all09:33
*** eumel8 has quit IRC09:33
ttxSo +1 on needing to polish the communication09:33
cdentthere’s certainly plenty of energy in that (NFV) area09:33
ttxand we already have awkward things like Tacker that would really fit better outside of OpenStack09:34
cdentand a lot of is often distracting from other stuff in the openstack realm09:34
ttx(outside of OpenStack-the-product while still in OpenStack-the-community)09:34
cdentBut but but thierry openstack isn’t a product, it’s a toolkit! ;)09:37
gcbttx,cdent: a map is easier to understand than text , I think we are on the right way to communicate what's OpenStack Projects09:37
ttxcdent: A framework actually09:37
ttxIt's a framework product :)09:37
ttxI use "product" pretty loosely here09:38
ttxas in "thing we market to a given audience"09:38
ttxYes, the map is 99% ready now09:38
* cdent goes hunting for a word to map to that definition09:39
ttxMore words!09:39
ttxInteresting review in case you missed it ni the project-team-guide: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/511968/09:40
flaper87cdent: ttx I think we should be careful with the way we present this but there's not much we can do to avoid backstories in backchannels09:42
flaper87a product that ships a framework to create products and more frameworks09:42
* cdent disappears in a puff of recursive smoke09:45
openstackgerritFlavio Percoco proposed openstack/governance master: Add ansible-role-k8s-cookiecutter under tripleo  https://review.openstack.org/51256809:47
flaper87cdent: also, I just read the backlog and ++ on Denver and SYD being too close09:47
cdentIn some sense it might end up being sort of useful: I’m going to be unprepared to do anything but listen in Sydney, and that might be the right thing.09:50
ttxIt's definitely too close to hold two Board+TC+UC things09:50
flaper87I'm not going to be there, fwiw. I land on monday morning09:50
openstackgerritFlavio Percoco proposed openstack/governance master: Add ansible-role-k8s-cookiecutter under tripleo  https://review.openstack.org/51256809:50
flaper87barely on time for my talk, I think09:50
cdentAren’t you usually in country for several days beforehand having some kind of adventure? I guess you must have a confict of some kind?09:52
flaper87exactly, wife's bday09:53
flaper87but I'll stay longer, that was the deal09:53
ttxlonger as in.. a full year?09:59
ttxI'll be back for your /next/ bday09:59
flaper87hahahaha, nah, just long enough to jump from a plane and go surfing10:05
*** cdent has quit IRC10:22
*** cdent has joined #openstack-tc10:26
cdentmy son booked me a surf lesson at manly beach as a birthday present10:27
cdentit’s hilarious because I live right near a surfing beach but need to go to australia to get off my butt and take a lesson10:27
*** cdent has quit IRC10:29
*** openstackgerrit has quit IRC10:33
* mordred waves to the love tc-members11:01
*** dtantsur is now known as dtantsur|brb11:28
flaper87mordred: mmh, what am I missing? Why isn't Zuul happy? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/512330/11:33
flaper87does the former patch needs to land first?11:33
flaper87maybe it's just that11:33
*** cdent has joined #openstack-tc11:34
*** rosmaita has joined #openstack-tc11:39
flaper87mmh, wrong channel, just noticed11:44
* flaper87 facepalm11:44
andreaftonyb: I did, thank you11:58
*** pabelanger has quit IRC13:01
*** pabelanger has joined #openstack-tc13:01
*** dtantsur|brb is now known as dtantsur13:21
*** lbragstad has joined #openstack-tc13:22
dhellmannttx: thanks for pointing out that update; I've commented13:39
*** cdent has quit IRC13:41
*** gcb has quit IRC13:45
*** gcb has joined #openstack-tc13:47
*** thingee has quit IRC14:07
sdagueI do wonder if our TC turnout rate is being impacted by google putting everyone's ballots in spam14:10
*** emagana has joined #openstack-tc14:14
pabelangerWhere do you see that (turnout rate)?14:26
*** hongbin has joined #openstack-tc14:34
*** jpich has quit IRC14:43
fungior are you just predicting?14:48
fungithough ballots getting caught in spam filters has been a thing in previous elections too14:48
fungithe election announcements have pretty much always told people to check their spam filters before reporting missing ballots14:48
fungiand plenty of people spoke up in #openstack-dev in the past noting their ballots showed up as spam14:49
cmurphynot everyone keeps up with the dev list or follows the campaigns, but would be likely to vote if the ballot just showed up in their inbox14:51
sdaguecmurphy: ++14:55
*** sdague has quit IRC14:59
*** cdent has joined #openstack-tc14:59
persiaFor Google, part of the problem is that if someone puts CIVS mail in "Spam", it increases the score, and once it passes threshold, anyone who doesn't pull it out increases score.15:01
persiaTo avoid conflation with various other polls, and clear history, it probably needs another poll hosting organisation.15:01
dhellmannwe keep talking about hosting our own copy of that software; maybe it's time15:03
mugsiethere is also the issue that a random email (with no history of being emailed by users) is arriving at basically the same time to a group of people15:03
mugsiethat would help increase the spam score15:03
dhellmannthis turns into another more specific example of "how do we communicate effectively with our community"15:04
dhellmannpeople following the community communication channels will know to look in the spam folder; people who are not so closely engaged won't15:05
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc15:19
persiadhellmann: There are advantages to having an independent organisation manage the poll.  If we're hosting it, it isn't independent.  That said, maybe there is value in a daughter organisation that would manage polls, and could be granted some means of email submission through project email servers.15:52
dhellmannpersia : sure. I think we started talking about separate hosting when we scaled beyond what the civs folks could handle easily. there are trade-offs.15:53
persiaYes.  Something for more discussion.  I think tonyb was interested in more discussion on how we do these things at Summit: that might be a useful forum to introduce this as well.15:55
dmsimardSending any significant of volume of email is hard, even for companies specializing in it. I'm not surprised some end up not being delivered or in spam.17:03
dmsimardI've given up running my own personal SMTP server a long time ago. Between reverse dns, dkim, spf, signing and everything else involved..17:04
*** emagana has quit IRC17:05
*** emagana has joined #openstack-tc17:05
*** emagana has quit IRC17:07
*** emagana has joined #openstack-tc17:13
*** dtantsur is now known as dtantsur|afk17:19
*** sdague has joined #openstack-tc17:36
cdentdhellmann: I reckon that at least to some extent even thought the TC isn’t directly engaged in design as part of the TC duties, I think it is probably important for the TC to highlight those design principles which ought to be considered priorities. Not because the individuals do, but because as a group we choose them.18:20
cdentIt provides a type of leadership.18:20
dhellmannsure. I guess the example was a very specific deep thing that we haven't even discussed within the tc, and that I don't think we need to. At least as a body.18:22
dhellmannso I'm trying to understand what zaneb is looking for and why "I try to represent our whole community" is not a valid answer in his eyes.18:23
cdentI think of it as a kind of a thought experiment: if you had to choose one…18:23
dhellmannif I chose one then I would not be doing my job properly.18:24
cdentFor me, I bail out: I don’t, as a TC member, think of the end users. My only priority is the openstack developer experience18:24
dhellmannIn each case, I have to balance the merits and arguments of different constituents. If I always approach problems with the same perspective, then that marginalizes anyone I don't consider "important"18:24
cdentClearly this idea of thought experiment does not jibe with the dhellmann mode of thinking :)18:25
dhellmannand that's a reasonable position; most of what we talk about requires that perspective18:25
dhellmannif it was "who would you advocate for in situation X" then that's reasonable to ask because I can look at who's involved, consider who might be left out, and try to develop an opinion18:25
dhellmannotherwise it's like asking "how do you do concurrency?" -- the answer depends on factors that change18:26
cdentSo you would prefer a more concrete question like “if you were starting a new project for fun, that needed concurrency, what techniques would you investigate”18:27
cdentwhich makes sense18:27
dhellmannright. the question as it is presupposes that it's ok to always take a single (or small number) of perspectives18:27
dhellmannnow if the question was "which perspectives do you have experience with so you can bring them to the table" that's a very different question18:28
dhellmannthat's not "who do you advocate for" but "what can you add to the conversation"18:28
dhellmannand that's the question I tried to answer in my response18:28
* cdent nods18:29
cdentany ideas on how to start a process that leads to something that satisfies: “important for the TC to highlight those design principles which ought to be considered priorities” ?18:30
dhellmannwell, we had the working group, but I guess it didn't see enough activity?18:30
*** emagana has quit IRC18:51
*** cdent has quit IRC18:51
*** emagana has joined #openstack-tc20:54
*** david-lyle has quit IRC20:57
*** sdague has quit IRC21:08
*** david-lyle has joined #openstack-tc21:13
*** flwang1 has joined #openstack-tc21:26
* flwang1 waves from New Zealand21:26
*** kumarmn has quit IRC22:31
*** lbragstad has quit IRC22:36
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc22:49
*** kumarmn has quit IRC22:53
*** emagana has quit IRC23:26
*** emagana has joined #openstack-tc23:27
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc23:30
*** emagana has quit IRC23:31
*** hongbin has quit IRC23:32
*** kumarmn has quit IRC23:39
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc23:39
*** kumarmn has quit IRC23:57
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc23:58

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.3 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!