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| tonyb | andreaf: did you find your voting key? | 03:44 |
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| ttx | johnthetubaguy: could you talk directly with lbragstad to unblock https://review.openstack.org/#/c/500985/ ? | 08:37 |
| ttx | dhellmann: please confirm that you're fine with Kolla answer on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/500987/ | 08:38 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: ah, I lost track of that, I spoke to some horizon folks about that at OpenStack Days UK. | 08:39 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add heat-dashboard to heat project https://review.openstack.org/504166 | 08:52 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Adding Contributor Guide as an official project https://review.openstack.org/510648 | 08:52 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Retired pylockfile https://review.openstack.org/510752 | 08:52 |
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| ttx | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Technical_Committee_Tracker updated | 08:56 |
| openstackgerrit | Rico Lin proposed openstack/governance master: Add heat planning and completion artifacts https://review.openstack.org/510179 | 08:58 |
| cdent | tc-members and everyone else, it’s time for an office hour | 09:00 |
| ttx | o/ | 09:00 |
| gcb | o/ | 09:01 |
| cdent | the campaign question time had such interesting questions I wish it had gone on a bit longer | 09:01 |
| ttx | yes, a couple more days would have been nice | 09:02 |
| ttx | We might want to encourage people to vote this week | 09:02 |
| ttx | especially if some voting emails got lost in the spam folders | 09:03 |
| ttx | I have one topic for office hours this week | 09:03 |
| gcb | ttx: agree , many people find vote email in junk mailbox | 09:04 |
| ttx | Alan Clark reached out to ask for agenda items for the Board+TC+UC meeting in Sydney | 09:04 |
| ttx | I already replied that another status update on the strategic workstreams might be overkill | 09:04 |
| ttx | given that we reviewed those in Denver | 09:05 |
| ttx | I suspect they will want to cover progress on the potential new projects | 09:05 |
| ttx | anyway, I'll start a thread on openstack-tc ML once the elections are over | 09:06 |
| cdent | (that reminds me, Denver and Sydney have felt far too close together) | 09:06 |
| ttx | yes, it's just hard to move the PTG into August or the Summit deeper in November/December | 09:07 |
| ttx | Berlin next year is a bit later | 09:08 |
| ttx | In other news, Glare application was deferred by its author to Rocky, in order to avoid a close call | 09:09 |
| ttx | which I think is a good move | 09:09 |
| ttx | You don't want to start on a conflicted foot | 09:09 |
| ttx | Would be great if we could close the Queens project team list this week (since it's Q-1 this week) | 09:10 |
| ttx | so please review our last standing candidate: | 09:11 |
| ttx | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/511320/ | 09:11 |
| ttx | still missing a couple of votes | 09:11 |
| cdent | ttx: your comments about agenda items has me wondering: am I on the hook to provide updates on the developer satisfaction topic raised in denver or not? It was implied there that I might but since then it has become uncldear | 09:12 |
| ttx | cdent: if you feel like there are good lessons in that feedback we got, I would say yes | 09:14 |
| ttx | Not on the hook, but if you're willing to follow up I think we can carve some time in the meeting to do that | 09:14 |
| cdent | I’d like to. I’ve not had a chance to do much analysis yet, but there’s probably at least a tiny summary that could be done. | 09:15 |
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| * gcb has a topic to discuss, is there a topic like Open Discussion ? | 09:18 | |
| cdent | gcb: it’s always open discussion in office hours | 09:19 |
| cdent | so feel free to go ahead | 09:19 |
| gcb | okay thanks | 09:19 |
| gcb | Jonathan propose a plan to manage new projects, in short word , openstack foundation will host more Non-OpenStack projects | 09:20 |
| gcb | in last board meeting | 09:20 |
| gcb | https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1vhBRo7jLG0fmzktdnG1EhHwE5L7eYdIFkuxYXmGZ_Hg/edit#slide=id.g2634b3cd1a_0_14 | 09:20 |
| ttx | It's not how I would present it, but yes | 09:21 |
| gcb | about the TC, will form other Non-OpenStack TCs | 09:21 |
| ttx | I'd rather say "host other open infrastructure efforts that are compatible with OpenStack without trying to fit them awkwardly in a single product called openStack" | 09:22 |
| gcb | ttx: yeah, focus on open infrastructure | 09:22 |
| ttx | We made a lot of effort including things that are not a great product fit just because they are interesting and produced by our community | 09:23 |
| ttx | the result was a very confusing OpenStack including things like Tacker | 09:23 |
| ttx | I see "let's not call everything we produce OpenStack" as a way to refocus the product/framework on its essentials | 09:24 |
| ttx | But yes, that's being discussed | 09:24 |
| ttx | On the TC side, good governance requires that leadership is representative of its constituency | 09:25 |
| gcb | ttx, just remind TCs to review the proposal | 09:25 |
| ttx | so if the new projects or strategic areas are substantially different, letting them have their own representation sounds desirable | 09:26 |
| ttx | gcb: totally! Actually it was posted on a thread on openstack-tc | 09:26 |
| ttx | to raise attention | 09:26 |
| gcb | ttx: ack | 09:26 |
| ttx | It is a significant change (at least as significant as the Big Tent change) and there are multiple ways to get it wrong | 09:27 |
| ttx | Personally I see it as an opportunity to fix a number of things that have plagued us, but if done wrong it has potential to hurt | 09:28 |
| ttx | So yes, wide feedback is desirable | 09:28 |
| ttx | gcb: are you coming to Sydney? | 09:29 |
| cdent | I think it is pretty clear that how it is talked about is going to be a very big deal, Many people will think of it as “openstack foundation will host more Non-OpenStack projects” not “host other open infrastructure efforts that are compatible with OpenStack without trying to fit them awkwardly in a single product called openStack” | 09:29 |
| gcb | ttx: yes | 09:29 |
| ttx | cdent: yes, I agree. And the first project they are considering is not helping in that area | 09:30 |
| cdent | which is? | 09:30 |
| ttx | Things in container infrastructure space | 09:31 |
| ttx | with the potential to be seen as entering CNCF pivate territory | 09:31 |
| ttx | private* | 09:31 |
| ttx | even if it's not, it has "container' in it | 09:32 |
| * cdent senses backstories and backchannels ... | 09:32 | |
| ttx | I feel like if the first thing considered was NFV enablement, the story would be simpler to sell, that's all | 09:33 |
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| ttx | So +1 on needing to polish the communication | 09:33 |
| cdent | there’s certainly plenty of energy in that (NFV) area | 09:33 |
| ttx | and we already have awkward things like Tacker that would really fit better outside of OpenStack | 09:34 |
| cdent | and a lot of is often distracting from other stuff in the openstack realm | 09:34 |
| ttx | (outside of OpenStack-the-product while still in OpenStack-the-community) | 09:34 |
| cdent | But but but thierry openstack isn’t a product, it’s a toolkit! ;) | 09:37 |
| gcb | ttx,cdent: a map is easier to understand than text , I think we are on the right way to communicate what's OpenStack Projects | 09:37 |
| ttx | cdent: A framework actually | 09:37 |
| ttx | It's a framework product :) | 09:37 |
| ttx | I use "product" pretty loosely here | 09:38 |
| ttx | as in "thing we market to a given audience" | 09:38 |
| ttx | Yes, the map is 99% ready now | 09:38 |
| * cdent goes hunting for a word to map to that definition | 09:39 | |
| ttx | More words! | 09:39 |
| ttx | Interesting review in case you missed it ni the project-team-guide: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/511968/ | 09:40 |
| flaper87 | cdent: ttx I think we should be careful with the way we present this but there's not much we can do to avoid backstories in backchannels | 09:42 |
| flaper87 | a product that ships a framework to create products and more frameworks | 09:42 |
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| openstackgerrit | Flavio Percoco proposed openstack/governance master: Add ansible-role-k8s-cookiecutter under tripleo https://review.openstack.org/512568 | 09:47 |
| flaper87 | cdent: also, I just read the backlog and ++ on Denver and SYD being too close | 09:47 |
| cdent | In some sense it might end up being sort of useful: I’m going to be unprepared to do anything but listen in Sydney, and that might be the right thing. | 09:50 |
| ttx | It's definitely too close to hold two Board+TC+UC things | 09:50 |
| flaper87 | I'm not going to be there, fwiw. I land on monday morning | 09:50 |
| openstackgerrit | Flavio Percoco proposed openstack/governance master: Add ansible-role-k8s-cookiecutter under tripleo https://review.openstack.org/512568 | 09:50 |
| flaper87 | barely on time for my talk, I think | 09:50 |
| cdent | Aren’t you usually in country for several days beforehand having some kind of adventure? I guess you must have a confict of some kind? | 09:52 |
| flaper87 | exactly, wife's bday | 09:53 |
| flaper87 | :P | 09:53 |
| flaper87 | but I'll stay longer, that was the deal | 09:53 |
| flaper87 | ^^ | 09:53 |
| cdent | :) | 09:57 |
| ttx | longer as in.. a full year? | 09:59 |
| ttx | I'll be back for your /next/ bday | 09:59 |
| flaper87 | hahahaha, nah, just long enough to jump from a plane and go surfing | 10:05 |
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| cdent | my son booked me a surf lesson at manly beach as a birthday present | 10:27 |
| cdent | it’s hilarious because I live right near a surfing beach but need to go to australia to get off my butt and take a lesson | 10:27 |
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| * mordred waves to the love tc-members | 11:01 | |
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| flaper87 | mordred: mmh, what am I missing? Why isn't Zuul happy? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/512330/ | 11:33 |
| flaper87 | does the former patch needs to land first? | 11:33 |
| flaper87 | maybe it's just that | 11:33 |
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| flaper87 | mmh, wrong channel, just noticed | 11:44 |
| * flaper87 facepalm | 11:44 | |
| andreaf | tonyb: I did, thank you | 11:58 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: thanks for pointing out that update; I've commented | 13:39 |
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| sdague | I do wonder if our TC turnout rate is being impacted by google putting everyone's ballots in spam | 14:10 |
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| pabelanger | Where do you see that (turnout rate)? | 14:26 |
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| fungi | or are you just predicting? | 14:48 |
| fungi | though ballots getting caught in spam filters has been a thing in previous elections too | 14:48 |
| fungi | the election announcements have pretty much always told people to check their spam filters before reporting missing ballots | 14:48 |
| fungi | and plenty of people spoke up in #openstack-dev in the past noting their ballots showed up as spam | 14:49 |
| cmurphy | not everyone keeps up with the dev list or follows the campaigns, but would be likely to vote if the ballot just showed up in their inbox | 14:51 |
| sdague | cmurphy: ++ | 14:55 |
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| persia | For Google, part of the problem is that if someone puts CIVS mail in "Spam", it increases the score, and once it passes threshold, anyone who doesn't pull it out increases score. | 15:01 |
| persia | To avoid conflation with various other polls, and clear history, it probably needs another poll hosting organisation. | 15:01 |
| dhellmann | we keep talking about hosting our own copy of that software; maybe it's time | 15:03 |
| mugsie | there is also the issue that a random email (with no history of being emailed by users) is arriving at basically the same time to a group of people | 15:03 |
| mugsie | that would help increase the spam score | 15:03 |
| dhellmann | this turns into another more specific example of "how do we communicate effectively with our community" | 15:04 |
| dhellmann | people following the community communication channels will know to look in the spam folder; people who are not so closely engaged won't | 15:05 |
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| persia | dhellmann: There are advantages to having an independent organisation manage the poll. If we're hosting it, it isn't independent. That said, maybe there is value in a daughter organisation that would manage polls, and could be granted some means of email submission through project email servers. | 15:52 |
| dhellmann | persia : sure. I think we started talking about separate hosting when we scaled beyond what the civs folks could handle easily. there are trade-offs. | 15:53 |
| persia | Yes. Something for more discussion. I think tonyb was interested in more discussion on how we do these things at Summit: that might be a useful forum to introduce this as well. | 15:55 |
| dmsimard | Sending any significant of volume of email is hard, even for companies specializing in it. I'm not surprised some end up not being delivered or in spam. | 17:03 |
| dmsimard | I've given up running my own personal SMTP server a long time ago. Between reverse dns, dkim, spf, signing and everything else involved.. | 17:04 |
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| cdent | dhellmann: I reckon that at least to some extent even thought the TC isn’t directly engaged in design as part of the TC duties, I think it is probably important for the TC to highlight those design principles which ought to be considered priorities. Not because the individuals do, but because as a group we choose them. | 18:20 |
| cdent | It provides a type of leadership. | 18:20 |
| dhellmann | sure. I guess the example was a very specific deep thing that we haven't even discussed within the tc, and that I don't think we need to. At least as a body. | 18:22 |
| dhellmann | so I'm trying to understand what zaneb is looking for and why "I try to represent our whole community" is not a valid answer in his eyes. | 18:23 |
| cdent | I think of it as a kind of a thought experiment: if you had to choose one… | 18:23 |
| dhellmann | if I chose one then I would not be doing my job properly. | 18:24 |
| cdent | For me, I bail out: I don’t, as a TC member, think of the end users. My only priority is the openstack developer experience | 18:24 |
| dhellmann | In each case, I have to balance the merits and arguments of different constituents. If I always approach problems with the same perspective, then that marginalizes anyone I don't consider "important" | 18:24 |
| cdent | Clearly this idea of thought experiment does not jibe with the dhellmann mode of thinking :) | 18:25 |
| dhellmann | and that's a reasonable position; most of what we talk about requires that perspective | 18:25 |
| dhellmann | if it was "who would you advocate for in situation X" then that's reasonable to ask because I can look at who's involved, consider who might be left out, and try to develop an opinion | 18:25 |
| dhellmann | otherwise it's like asking "how do you do concurrency?" -- the answer depends on factors that change | 18:26 |
| cdent | So you would prefer a more concrete question like “if you were starting a new project for fun, that needed concurrency, what techniques would you investigate” | 18:27 |
| cdent | which makes sense | 18:27 |
| dhellmann | right. the question as it is presupposes that it's ok to always take a single (or small number) of perspectives | 18:27 |
| dhellmann | now if the question was "which perspectives do you have experience with so you can bring them to the table" that's a very different question | 18:28 |
| dhellmann | that's not "who do you advocate for" but "what can you add to the conversation" | 18:28 |
| dhellmann | and that's the question I tried to answer in my response | 18:28 |
| * cdent nods | 18:29 | |
| cdent | any ideas on how to start a process that leads to something that satisfies: “important for the TC to highlight those design principles which ought to be considered priorities” ? | 18:30 |
| dhellmann | well, we had the working group, but I guess it didn't see enough activity? | 18:30 |
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