Monday, 2017-11-27

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openstackgerritTuan Luong-Anh proposed openstack/governance master: Fix the format file name
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openstackgerritChris Dent proposed openstack/governance master: Remove redundant links in index.rst
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smcginnisfungi, TheJulia, cdent: Just reading backscroll and completely agree with you all.13:38
smcginnispabelanger: You too. :)13:38
cdentsmcginnis: which topic, or on everything we’ve ever said?13:38
smcginnisYes, everything. :D No, the discussion about talking over people, having time to process a little, and running out of time before being able to speak up.13:39
cdentI think it is a problem that people who don’t experience it really don’t see13:40
smcginnisI hadn't seen that response. True.13:45
cdentI think Ed was sufficiently on vacation at that time to express himself freely13:47
openstackgerritJuan Antonio Osorio Robles proposed openstack/governance master: Add tripleo-ipsec to tripleo deliverables
cdentIt feels like there’s a bit of an emerging split between people who want more interaction/inclusion between the TC and board/ptls/everyone and those who are okay with the status quo. That doesn’t really capture what I’m trying to say accurately.13:48
smcginnisI'm not necessarily saying I want _more_ interaction. I just don't want to lose the current (albeit limited) amount we have.13:49
* cdent nods13:50
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* amrith tunes in to the interesting conversation13:51
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cdentamrith: the interesting bits are in the backlog from … friday?13:55
amrithcdent yes, I was watching that interaction13:56
amrithI want to listen; I have some thoughts on this status-quo/change insider/outsider issue13:56
cdentsounds like maybe you should speak for a bit and share those thoughts?13:57
amrithbut want to listen to what others have to say which is why I said nada last week13:57
cdentUnless smcginnis is queueing up something massive, I think we’ve reached a lull13:57
amrithsmcginnis always does that ...13:57
* smcginnis is lulling13:58
cdentat least you’re not LOLing13:58
cmurphycdent: I feel like you could expand on your comment about the emerging split, I'm not sure that connects to the interrupt-driven discussion discussion13:58
cmurphy*how that13:58
cdentcmurphy: it was sort of tangential, but during the various conversations that have been going on in this channel, in twitter, and elsewhere, there’s a sense by which some think the existing styles of interaction are “okay” or “natural” and others think that even if it is natural, some work is required to be more actively inclusive14:00
cmurphycdent: got it, thanks14:01
cmurphycdent: so - do you have ideas on how to make these interactions more inclusive? short of dissolving the in-person meetings i'm not sure there's an action we could take on it14:02
cdentI think there are at least some people at the boundary of the issue can perhaps encourage the interruptors (etc) to be aware of their behavior14:03
cdentor to put it more generically (and weakly): consciousness raising14:04
TheJuliaerr, gah14:06
* TheJulia glares at irccloud14:06
TheJulia+1 still applies even though new lines appeared on my screen suddenly14:07
cdentTheJulia: what was it supposed to be in response to?14:08
TheJuliacmurphy's message to you from about 10 minutes ago14:09
TheJuliabut then I also agree with your latest message14:09
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fungieveryone seems unusually agreeable this week14:25
cdentmaybe the usa-based people are fat and sassily satisifed from thanksgiving?14:26
fungii fear i can't blame the holiday for my present girth14:27
funginor mirth14:27
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dhellmannre-reading the logs from last thursday, I'm struggling to understand the purpose a new blog meets that isn't already met with our existing tools14:41
dhellmannI agree with cdent that "news" should go on the mailing list14:41
dhellmann"how to" content should go into project documentation14:41
dhellmannpossibly announcing new dev features or techniques not tied to a specific project would make sense14:42
dhellmannotoh, that could also just go to the mailing list14:42
cdentdhellmann: I think the idea is to read people not on the mailing list14:43
dhellmannharlowja's idea was to write dev-focused content for readers outside of openstack, a sort of humble-brag thing14:43
cdentfor _some_ things14:43
dhellmannand that makes some sense14:43
dhellmannI just question if we have people who want to write that sort of content who don't already have an outlet14:43
mugsiewell, I think harlowja indicated he was one person who would, and does not have one. but that is a small sample size14:44
dhellmannrob creswell posted on twitter last week about having trouble keeping up with what other projects are doing14:44
smcginnisFor me, it's people not on the mailing list, and a venue for a technical focused location for folks to go to that would get diluted with either the ML or the superuser blog.14:44
cdentthere’s a difference between the stuff that josh wants and ttx wants. The stuff that josh wants could potentially be met by human curated syndication14:44
cdentthe human factor is important14:45
mugsiecdent: ++14:45
dhellmannmugsie : yeah, I find it difficult to believe harlowja doesn't have a way to have a blog14:45
smcginnisMaybe human curated syndication is really the answer.14:45
dhellmanncdent : right14:45
mugsiehis example was - which is very different to super user14:45
mugsieand planet.o.o14:45
dhellmannif this is just a "PTL progress report" blog, then I'm not sure we want a blog for it14:45
smcginnisdhellmann: I think that was a different discussion from the one I was talking about.14:46
mugsiethe k8s one is human curated, technical overviews / news / feature showcase for people both in and outside the k8s community14:47
dhellmannsmcginnis : oh, I'm looking at
mugsieI am not sure we would have enough content though14:47
mugsieyeah, that was the ladt discussion, not the one that kicked it off though14:47
mugsielet me see if I can find it in my logs14:48
dhellmannI agree they're 2 different things14:48
* dhellmann should finish reading thursday's logs14:48
cdentdhellmann: the logs from thursday and friday last week were pretty chaotic (and interesting)14:48
dhellmannmy comment on twitter was that this seems like another issue caused by the fact that we don't have active project managers14:51
dhellmannsummarizing progress and project status is usually part of that role14:51
dhellmannwe ask PTLs to be team leads, then dump a bunch of project management work on them14:52
cdentpms are starting to emerge, but more often than not the thing (e.g. placement) being managed grows without bound14:52
dhellmannwhat if we just ask a volunteer each cycle to keep up with that stuff and spread the info around? then it's not more work on PTLs14:52
mugsiePWG used to do some things like that - they used to interview PTLs and try and distil info. I havent seen it in a few cycles though14:55
dhellmannright, that never really felt like it was fully connected to what was actually happening on the ground14:57
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dhellmannregarding TC time at the PTG, I think the idea of having a time & place would be good but if we make it too much time then we have the problem of asking TC members to not participate in other discussions with their other teams, which is the issue I had in Denver14:59
dhellmannI'd like to see PTGBot tied in to twitter so I can subscribe to alerts14:59
dhellmannregarding the last BoD/TC meeting: The TC did seem unusually quiet this time. We've had more active discussions in the past. To some degree I think that was because the content was new to a lot of people, and it wasn't really clear what the impact was. I know the discussion of the foundation expansion was presented *very* differently to what I had seen in previous meetings.15:02
* dhellmann has made it through thursday's logs15:03
cmurphyi was definitely lacking context on that before going in15:03
cmurphyi was also really shocked that it was considered acceptable to run over time on topics15:03
dhellmannI was confused as hell, and I participated in one of the meetings where they were trying to write that presentation.15:03
dhellmannwe've done worse, but we've definitely done better with time management15:04
mugsiedhellmann: yeah - what was presented was very watered down from slide decks I had seen floating around before. I knew what they were getting at, but only from seeing a diagram that was on a slide deck15:06
dhellmannright. I was no longer sure the proposal was in any way the same.15:07
dhellmannI made it to 1 out of 3 pre-meetings I think? so for all I knew things had taken a dramatic turn somewhere15:07
cdentcmurphy: there’s a rather mixed bag of attention to meeting formalisms, isn’t there?15:08
mugsieand, I am not sure that there was much anyone could say - it was more of a "we want to do x" vs "what do you think about doing x"15:08
cmurphycdent: indeed15:08
mugsiethat said I missed context of previous meetings, so that may have happened before15:08
dhellmannwe probably didn't do a good job, as the tc, of making sure our new members were up to speed on what was going to be discussed15:09
dhellmannwe're sort of used to lots of continuity, but that's a trap even if we don't have new members because not everyone is paying attention to all of the topics in advance anyway15:10
dhellmannso we should probably do some sort of "here's what this 1 line agenda item means" email before the meetings15:10
cdentthat’s a good idea15:10
dhellmannif someone helps me remember I said I'd do that for Vancouver, I'll try :-)15:11
dhellmannat least for topics that aren't brand new, we do occasionally have those (like the at&t presentation)15:12
mugsieshould we add a reminder bot here? :P15:12
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dhellmannoh, no, not another bot telling me what to do!15:12
dhellmannI already feel like I work for siri15:12
cdentdhellmann: i’ve stuck it on my reminder system defered and due may 1st15:12
dhellmanncdent : I suppose I could have just done that too, thanks15:13
ttxdhellmann: you do work for Siri15:13
cdentit’s more fun/useful/helpful/collaborative this way15:13
* dhellmann sobs in acknowledgment of the truth15:13
cdentassuming I or my computer don’t explode between now and then15:13
smcginnisOne other thing I think contributes is the TC coming in half way through the daylong meeting. So for the BoD, it's just continuation of the morning. For the TC it's jumping in mid-stream.15:13
smcginnisSo I think part of the feeling is, I don't want to bring up a question for something that was already discussed.15:14
smcginnisWhether that's really the case or not.15:14
cdentdon’t cross the streams!15:14
ttxthe timing of our elections is not optimal to get new members up to speed on topic that will be discussed on the TC+BoD meeting agenda15:14
cdentttx we had some discussion of tweaking that a bit, if I recall?15:14
smcginnisBut lacking the background, I'm not sure (see Foundation proposal which I thought I knew but then wasn't too sure based on actual presented material).15:14
dhellmannsmcginnis : I didn't pay close attention to how many people attended the whole day vs. just the joint session. Do you remember rough numbers?15:15
cmurphythe timing of the elections isn't optimal to make sure new members even get to the meeting15:15
ttxcdent: yes, asking for more global input15:15
cmurphyit was mostly by luck that i wasn't a day late15:15
smcginnisdhellmann: I came in mid-day because I was helping with training in the morning, so I do not know.15:15
dhellmanncmurphy : good point15:15
dhellmannsmcginnis : yeah, I know several folks had other commitments but I wasn't sure how many15:16
mugsieThe room for the joint session was a lot fuller than the board meeting15:16
smcginnisdhellmann: Based on the seat shuffling, I think probably at least half of TC?15:16
dhellmannas far as speaking up goes, a bunch of the board and tc members have now been in joint meetings together many times so we feel more comfortable interjecting. that's not really fair to the folks who haven't been participating in those meetings for so long15:17
dhellmannsmcginnis: that seems likely15:17
dhellmannthe place I need to run my errands is now open, so I'm going to go do that. bbiab.15:17
mugsieas pointed out on Friday (?), relying on a culture of interjecting is not very inclusive15:18
ttxbut again, I think the future of those meetings will be to have only a few TC members participate and represent15:19
cdentttx I think that’s a step backwards15:20
ttxI don't believe in 30+ people meetings15:20
cdentSure, but limiting the interaction of the board and _all_ of the TC seems bad (to me)15:21
ttxit's an antipattern that creates its own problems, like shy people not feeling ok to interject15:21
cdentI think that’s a misunderstanding of the situation. The fault is _needing_ to interject15:21
cdentBut I also need to run some errands, so will have to come back to this. Will check the logs later15:22
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mugsiettx: for that to be effective, you would need full documents distributed before the meeting. (this may not be a bad idea in general fwiw)15:24
mugsiein a chaired board meeting, if can be quite easy to ensure people get to speak15:24
mugsiebut it requires the the chair to be an active chair, and distribute floor time15:25
mugsiethere is reasons that we have things like Robert's Rules of Order for these style of meetings - to ensure that louder voices do not dominate.15:30
ttxThe BoD+TC+UC+Staff thing is not a governance body, it's a communication tool. We don't need to decide or vote on anything... So I don't feel like everyone needs to be present15:30
mugsiethe problem was not the size of the meeting, it was the style, and the people present15:31
ttxThis meeting only exists because of the communication gap15:31
mugsieI have seen more order in meetings twice the size15:31
cmurphymugsie: ++ it seems funny to me that a formal meeting like this suffers the same problems as the anything-goes style we have for design sessions15:31
mugsiecmurphy: yeah - cdent's post about the forum could apply to that meeting as well15:32
ttxwe raise topics that we feel like the Board is not paying enough attention to, and they raise topics they feel like we don't pay enough attention to15:32
ttxusually each party listens politely while the other exposes their points15:33
ttxand I feel like most of the times the lines don't move much15:33
ttxLike when we expose our top 5 needs15:33
ttxor like when some board members expose their "priorities"15:34
ttxThe only time where there was "one group" was during the workshop, because (1) there was a common exercise to follow and (2) wendar did a lot of preparation15:35
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mugsiewell, these meeting will either a) stop, or b) need massive restructuring as we add new "projects" (is that the term for things like CI / Edge / etc? )15:37
ttx"strategic focus area" is the workign totle15:37
mugsieas it may well be the only meeting of the tech leadership for the stratigic focus areas15:37
ttxmugsie: yes15:38
ttxthere will likely be a communication gap to solve there at some point15:39
mugsieMy only frame of reference is that last meeting, but if previous ones were more controlled, and less intrupt driven, it may be OK going forward15:42
mugsiebut I think it is worth trying to make the meeting more formal, which allows for scaling as we add more people, and ensures we can allow people to speak if they feel they need it.15:43
ttxbasically if all we do is bring topics that we feel the other party is ignoring too much, just having a few members from each group present (with duty to report to teh rest of the group) might be a better use of people's time and travel.15:43
ttxbut maybe I'm just burnt out from repeating the same thing over the years15:44
mugsiesure - but as said ^ we rely on contanuity a lot as it is, and that small group is likely to be the same people, purpetuating the issue.15:45
ttxI would rather rotate based on what the topic is... but yes I see your point15:46
cmurphyfwiw i won't feel sad about needing to attend fewer meetings :)15:46
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mugsiethe TC is already a small group, partly elected to represent the developers at things like this, so having an extra 6 people to help represent the thousands of ATC is not a bad idea15:50
ttxCNCF's TOC just merged rules for new projects acceptance:
ttxInteresting read to spot the differences15:51
cdentttx [t 3gMd] makes it sound a bit like you've given up? That's not really the case is it?15:53
purplerbot<ttx> and I feel like most of the times the lines don't move much [2017-11-27 15:33:51.101361] [n 3gMd]15:53
ttxcdent: I've given up on convincing people in the meeting. I doubled down on more informal / personal contacts15:54
cdentYes, and that is the point I've been trying to make. That's exclusionary.15:54
ttxcdent: what do you suggest ? Continue hammering the same nails ?15:55
ttxWe've been explaining that resources set priorities and not the other way around for as long as the board exists15:55
ttxand yet we still have weird discussions about "priorties for teh TC" at those meetings15:56
cdentWell it appears that at least some people would like us to be more formal about how the meeting is run: active chair. That suggests someone (you, me, cmurphy ?) needs to talk to the chair and express our concerns.15:56
cdentI don't know what the solution is, but I think it is clear the current situation is not okay.15:56
ttxcdent: I feel like the meeting is inefficient because there are no goals to it, not because of how the chair handle it15:58
ttxthe board meeting is clear, you vote on motions15:59
ttxthe TC/Board/UC/Staff meeting is more like open discussion15:59
ttxso yes the discussion could certainly be more inclusive, but in the end I don't feel we'd get more out of it15:59
* ttx jumps to meeting16:00
cdentI'll keep thinking on it and see if I can come up with something concrete to suggest.16:00
smcginnisMaybe we (the TC) need to be better about preparing ahead of time what we want our goals to be there.16:00
cmurphyI lean toward ttx's feelings, without a clear goal beyond "bring some things up" i'm not sure there's a need for everyone to be there or for there to be a drastic change in how it's run16:00
openstackgerritTytus Kurek proposed openstack/governance master: Add charm-interface-designate project
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fungifor the tech blog idea, i think we first need someone to characterize what the roles of superuser, the openstack blog and the openstack planet are, and then we can better see whether one of those can/should be expanded to support the desired content or whether a fourth needs to exist to fill in the gaps17:14
ttxfungi: yeah at this point we should probably kill the openstack blog, since it's a bit superseded by superuser17:15
ttxI'll bring it up to Lauren17:15
openstackgerritLance Bragstad proposed openstack/governance master: Update policy goal for cloudkitty
smcginnisI forgot there was such thing as the OpenStack blog. Maybe we just need to revive that and start using it for community/dev related things more.17:26
smcginnisfungi: I think you are right. With the resources you point out, it's almost more of a marketing thing that we need to make it clear what each resource is for.17:28
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openstackgerritKendall Nelson proposed openstack/governance master: Add Storyboard Migration to Rocky
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harlowjaok i'm back btw, turkey time over, lol19:00
openstackgerritDoug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: stop linking to documentation from governance
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* dims notes dhellmann trying to drag harlowja back into active duty :)19:12
harlowjai've been making a (slack and local telnet) bot that does all the openstack things19:13
harlowjaso i don't have to, lol19:14
harlowjaincluding smart response to alerts and stuff19:14
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harlowjaand blah blah deployments19:14
harlowjaand blah blah19:14
harlowjai'll get it opened eventually, lol19:14
dimsnice :)19:14
harlowjadims but yes, i will get back on front-lines boss19:21
harlowjaroger dodger19:22
* harlowja starts packing bullets19:22
* harlowja puts on bullet proof vest19:23
harlowjadhellmann the force is strong with u20:02
fungiharlowja, engineer and acquisitions editor for openstack blog20:02
harlowjathe force is also strong with u fungi20:02
dhellmannharlowja : I'm not trying to *force* you to do anything ;-)20:02
harlowjawrong kind of force,lol20:02
dhellmannyes, bad pun20:02
fungijedi mind trick maybe20:02
dhellmannharlowja : fwiw, I was Acquisitions Editor for Python Magazine for a while and it was a blast. It gave me an excuse to walk up to random people at conferences and ask them questions about their work, so I learned about all sorts of interesting projects.20:04
fungii _so_ hope you had a "press" card for your hatband20:05
harlowjado i get to turn into spiderman at the end20:05
harlowjapretty sure he was similar, lol20:05
dhellmannfungi : ha! no, but I did put "Python Magazine" on my badge a few times20:05
dhellmannharlowja : peter parker was only a photographer. Clark Kent was a reporter, though.20:06
fungiknowing is half the battle20:06
dhellmannnot giving away your diabolical plan in a gratuitous monologue goes a long way, too20:07
harlowjadhellmann damn, i thought peter parker did reporting to, guess u are right, lol20:07
harlowjaso i guess i'll be clark 'josh' kent20:36
harlowjacan i get that on my badge20:36
dhellmannharlowja : I'm sure that can be arranged, but I think you'll need to bring your own cape.20:41
harlowjai can handle that lol20:42
dhellmannalthough maybe diablo_rojo has one in the box of team picture props20:52
smcginnisWhat's a magazine?20:57
dhellmannsmcginnis : aw, man. too soon.21:01
* dims hands harlowja his sydney openstack towel as his cape :)21:06
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openstackgerritDoug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add "champions and stewards" as a top-5 help wanted area
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TheJuliaI will never want a cape after watching the incredibles... but the towel does seem like it would be an awesome cape!22:09
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TheJuliaOh, and on the subject of diabolical plans... the someone actually made a list many years ago of all the things to keep in mind as the evil overlord.22:10
TheJulias/the someone//22:21
* TheJulia just goes back to looking at review22:22
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