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| fungi | oops, i forgot office hours this time. guess i wasn't the only one | 03:31 |
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| cdent | dtroyer: I have chosen to challenge a wall of text you made (I think on the glare discussion) with my own on the adjutant discussion: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/553643/ | 12:04 |
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| dtroyer | cdent: oooh! a challenge! | 12:05 |
| * smcginnis now has even more to catch up on that patch | 12:10 | |
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| dtroyer | I've been putting off that one until I had time to actually read the whole thing, which of course, never happens. But man, a first read makes my client-side cloud-consumer hat run off and hide in the closet… | 12:41 |
| cdent | dtroyer: I think some of that gets cleared up later in the discussion | 12:41 |
| dtroyer | I actually started at the bottom… | 12:42 |
| cdent | hmmm | 12:42 |
| dtroyer | exposing random APIs to cloud consumers (as opposed to operators) is just problematic | 12:42 |
| dtroyer | its oaktree but without the 'do the same thing for everyone' part | 12:43 |
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| dtroyer | and adding the "here, do your own thing too" which carries a strong lock-in side effect, whether intentional or not | 12:43 |
| dtroyer | I haven't seen a description of how cloud consumers are supposed to actually use those new APIs, did I miss it? | 12:44 |
| dtroyer | maybe it is Horizon only? | 12:45 |
| cdent | the cloud consumers don't. web pages that are presented to cloud consumers do | 12:45 |
| cdent | jinxish | 12:45 |
| dtroyer | ah, ok, so the term "micro API" is really not a thing | 12:45 |
| dtroyer | that totally isn't clear | 12:45 |
| cdent | there are apis, they just aren't consumer apis | 12:46 |
| cdent | i agree it is not totally clear | 12:46 |
| dtroyer | that totally makes all the difference | 12:46 |
| dtroyer | really | 12:46 |
| dtroyer | so it's a Horizon plugin/parallel interface builder? | 12:46 |
| cdent | I totally know, which is why I thought the later discussion cleared that up, but I guess not | 12:47 |
| dtroyer | hell, I'd argue that Horizon may or may not belong in OpenStack, many operators replace it. | 12:47 |
| cdent | s/it's a/can be a/ | 12:47 |
| cdent | I'd be keen to see horizon go too, that's part of what underlies my wall of text | 12:47 |
| dtroyer | ok, time to go re-read with that important bit in mind | 12:47 |
| dtroyer | so it is actually both web and REST, the worst case scenario | 12:59 |
| cdent | is that an "is" or a "can be" | 13:02 |
| dtroyer | yes, that distinction is not clear | 13:02 |
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| dtroyer | ok, 3rd revision of the rant, that is enough. | 13:05 |
| dtroyer | cdent: I need to think about your bits more, will return :) | 13:05 |
| cdent | dtroyer: that's the nice version of those bits | 13:06 |
| cdent | the less nice version is: let's stop accepting any thing | 13:06 |
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| dtroyer | api-extensions-as-a-service is certainly appealing to some. but some things never change, nor do their consequences | 13:09 |
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| jroll | cdent: thanks for that wall of text. I've pondered the "what does a project gain from being official" quite a bit myself, and I'm still not sure there's a solid answer | 13:21 |
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| * EmilienM is always please to read a wall of text from cdent and usually has to block 1h to actually read and process it :) | 13:39 | |
| * cdent needs to learn how to be more cogent | 13:41 | |
| persia | Or less concise :) | 13:41 |
| cdent | less? | 13:42 |
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| persia | cdent: Yes, less concise. Your walls of text take longer to ponder than the walls of texts of others, or say, text appearing in popular magazines, as you tend to write sufficiently concisely that one has to pause to think along the way, rather than just reading at full speed and still comprehending the first time. | 13:57 |
| cdent | persia: Are you asking me do downgrade the reading level of my writing? | 14:00 |
| cdent | Causes pauses to think is going on my CV | 14:01 |
| smcginnis | :) | 14:01 |
| persia | No, merely suggesting that if you learned to be less concise, your readers may not need to block as much time per word to read your output :) | 14:01 |
| * cdent will think on this | 14:02 | |
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| mugsie | jroll: "what does the project get if they join openstack" - packaged in debian (and by default ubuntu), ability to publish to docs.o.o, service-types entry, space at ptgs / forums ... the list is quite long | 14:24 |
| jroll | mugsie: I suspect I value some of these things differently than other people :) | 14:27 |
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| jroll | mugsie: but, thank you for the reminders on some of those, I had forgotten a couple of them | 14:27 |
| mugsie | if you are a small project trying to gain users, those things matter a huge amount | 14:27 |
| cdent | yes, that's the thing. What is of value to whom is a thing. | 14:28 |
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| mugsie | personally, I like adjunct. I think it fills a void. I need to collect my thoughts and comment on the review though | 14:29 |
| jroll | mugsie: I don't want to go through the list, but quick example: if I was writing a python application, I would recommend against installing from system packages, so for me the packaging would be almost a downside :) | 14:29 |
| mugsie | oh, sure. but as a counter to that, I know plenty of sysops / devops people that have a blanket ban on non packaged installs, especally in "medium enterprise" | 14:30 |
| persia | It depends on the target audience, etc. I was involved in a discussion within the last 12 hours where the team decided they preferred being able to be a system package enough to compromise on other things. | 14:31 |
| mugsie | where things like password reset, sign up, invites, and user quota management could really help an openstack install | 14:31 |
| jroll | yep. | 14:31 |
| jroll | (to both of you, heh) | 14:31 |
| mugsie | :) | 14:32 |
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| cdent | mugsie: thanks for adding that ist of stuff. My position isn't one of "there aren't any reasons" rather "let's evaluate based on some reasons". I hope that's clear? | 16:27 |
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| mugsie | yeah - people (especially in the more established projects) may not fully grok the reasons why people want to go under goverance, so i thought it was imporant to actually put a list of them on the review | 16:32 |
| mugsie | I always hear "why do people want to join? they can just do $thing on the side of openstack" | 16:32 |
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| cdent | yay, future of ptg survey | 16:45 |
| mugsie | cdent: another wall of text :) ? | 16:46 |
| cdent | not wall, just a survey, you should have some email | 16:47 |
| smcginnis | 6. Any other feedback about the future of the PTG? | 16:47 |
| smcginnis | Probably a character limition there. :) | 16:47 |
| mugsie | smcginnis: we are about to find out :) | 16:49 |
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| openstackgerrit | Raoul Scarazzini proposed openstack/governance master: Create tripleo-ha-utils project https://review.openstack.org/555830 | 16:51 |
| openstackgerrit | Raoul Scarazzini proposed openstack/governance master: Create tripleo-ha-utils project https://review.openstack.org/555830 | 16:53 |
| cdent | I was terse | 16:58 |
| smcginnis | More verbosely concise? | 17:00 |
| pabelanger | I too replied to ptg survey | 17:00 |
| cdent | I'm very happy they are doing the survey. I hope it results in a great glorious contributor gathering for forever | 17:03 |
| cdent | (paid for by corporate foundation membership fees) | 17:03 |
| pabelanger | ++ | 17:04 |
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| mugsie | cdent: ++ | 17:31 |
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| openstackgerrit | Matthew Thode proposed openstack/governance master: add tests-lower-dependency-bounds tag https://review.openstack.org/557501 | 20:16 |
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| openstackgerrit | Matthew Thode proposed openstack/governance master: add tests-lower-dependency-bounds tag https://review.openstack.org/557501 | 20:31 |
| openstackgerrit | Matthew Thode proposed openstack/governance master: add tests-lower-dependency-bounds tag https://review.openstack.org/557501 | 20:32 |
| openstackgerrit | Matthew Thode proposed openstack/governance master: add tests-lower-dependency-bounds tag https://review.openstack.org/557501 | 20:38 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add tests-lower-dependency-bounds tag https://review.openstack.org/557501 | 21:11 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add tests-lower-dependency-bounds tag https://review.openstack.org/557501 | 21:33 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: fix tox to allow building docs locally https://review.openstack.org/557518 | 21:33 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: fix tox to allow building docs locally https://review.openstack.org/557518 | 21:34 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add tests-lower-dependency-bounds tag https://review.openstack.org/557501 | 21:34 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Update docs job info to match current PTI https://review.openstack.org/556576 | 21:38 |
| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: the zuul web dashboard will experience a short downtime as we roll out some changes - no job execution should be affected | 21:53 | |
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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: Zuul has been restarted to update to the latest code; existing changes have been re-enqueued, you may need to recheck changes uploaded in the past 10 minutes | 23:59 | |
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