Wednesday, 2018-04-04

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cmurphyis there going to be a joint board meeting on sunday in vancouver?07:45
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fungicmurphy: yes12:40
cmurphyfungi: ty12:42
fungicmurphy: it's listed on
fungi"May 20, F2F 9am - 12pm with Joint Leadership 1pm - 5pm"12:43
cmurphyfungi: aha, thanks12:50
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ttxOne data point as we explore better ways to track organizational diversity in openstack projects:
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lbragstado/ during the PTG, we had a session on default roles across openstack in the identity integration room16:35
lbragstadnow that we've firmed up a lot of the details in a specification, i figured i'd swing by and advertise that reviews are most welcome16:35
lbragstadplease don't hesitate to reach out if you have questions16:36
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dmsimardttx: cool data, thanks16:49
dmsimardttx: do you plan on doing something similar for OpenStack ?16:50
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fungiit appears i've annoyed the kolla team and they've mistaken my concern for that of the tc in general:
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smcginnisIt's concerning that being on the TC takes away the ability to have individual opinions.17:53
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fungii should probably be more clear when i comment on something that i'm not responding on behalf of the tc? (or my employer, or the vmt, or the infra team, or the zuul community, or $random_hat)17:54
smcginnisShort of appending a long disclaimer on every post any of us do, I don't think that's feasible.17:54
smcginnisI do think it's a limited number of people that take things this way, but still bothers me saying "I think" and not "the TC has discussed and voted" still gets interpreted as a TC statement.17:55
fungii'm trying really hard not to take it as a sign of an attitude problem with "the kolla team" (irony noted)17:56
smcginnisAnd that stating an opinion on anything in the community would result in someone (and someone in a certain position no less) stating crap like "shouldn't be stucking their nose in this business anyway."17:56
cdentOne gets the impression that there is a diversity of opinions on the state of things in the land of kolla*17:56
smcginnisYeah, sounds like it.17:57
dtroyer_zzThis isn't the first time I've heard someone talk about feeling like that can not express an independent opinion while on the TC. Or rather people confusing the two as fungi says.18:00
jrollnote the thread was tagged with [tc], that may play into it as well18:01
mugsieI know in another community I am in our solution is to explictly tag when we are relaying views from admins (or in this case the TC)18:02
mugsiebut, in here there is not very many occasions where one person is speaking on behalf of the TC18:03
persiaPart of it might be perception-of-other: my personal experience of being in governance positions is that I can only share personal opinions with groups when I interact with them enough to be treated as a person.18:04
persiaWhen I would interact with them as a result of something being escalated, they would typically perceive me as a delegated representative of $body18:04
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dtroyer_zzmugsie: right.  and even then it really can only be referring to documented bits, which can be easily noted.  Even the stuff in the not-yet-written-down "we've always done this" category is subject to personal memory faults and interpretation18:05
persiaI suspect the problem is best undone by each individual member of the TC actively engaging with sub-identities within our wider community when they wish to have an opinion, and following up on issues like that meeting with personal involvement (perhaps in-channel after the meeting), but that is explicitly something only the individual (fungi in this case) can do.18:05
dtroyer_zzpersia: hmmm… I think I can identify with that perception18:06
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fungithe originator of the thread (kolla ptl) included the [tc] subject tag when starting that ml thread in this case18:07
persiaAt this scale, I believe the TC would benefit from more closely identified constituencies: folk actively campaigning to represent projects X, Y, and Z (in which they have other reasons to be involved).  Doesn't mean everyone else with global view might not have opinions, but does provide someone who can be asked "is that an official statement?" within the "us" of the projects.18:07
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dtroyer_zzfungi: yup, in the original context it made sense.  but the thread headed toward the "don't tell us what to do" side of the "tc should be more involved" vs "tc should leave my project alone" argument.  In that context I am not surprised anything gets interpreted differently than the author meant.18:10
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fungiand yeah, i made a point of clarifying in #openstack-kolla just now (i'd have done so during the meeting but had stepped away for a quick lunch)18:34
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persiaWas the clarification received well?  If so, things are probably fine.  If not, your original point needs to be addressed more strenuously.18:54
fungithe individual whose opinions i'm doing my best not to attribute to "the kolla team" apologized, and expressed similar sentiment for having their opinions attributed to "the board"18:58
fungiso amicable, i suppose18:59
dtroyer_zzand a data point that it's a more general problem than just with the TC18:59
mugsiebut that is human nature as well, to associate people (especially people who traditionally move in a certain circle) as speaking for their "tribe"19:01
persiaYes.  One of the reasons identity politics is so important.19:02
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zanebwhen I was a PTL I found that I had to strongly resist my natural tendency to open my gob, lest everything that came out of it be interpreted as gospel23:02
zanebto some extent I think it's an unavoidable occupational hazard23:02
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