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| evrardjp | dims: patches are welcome to make it work with loci images :) There are people working on the docker plugin anyway. But if you don't want docker systemd-nspawn support is there (which supports app and machine containers) | 06:34 |
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| ttx | I'll be busy boarding a plane around TC office hour today, so I'll likely miss (most of) it | 07:58 |
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| smcginnis | I'll be busy riding on a bus full of orchestra and choir students around TC office hour today, and regretting my life decisions, so I'll likely miss all of it. | 12:18 |
| * cdent blinks | 12:19 | |
| fungi | i'm offline all day today, so missing the office hour at 1500z | 12:48 |
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| openstackgerrit | Matthew Edmonds proposed openstack/governance master: PowerVMStackers following stable policy https://review.openstack.org/562591 | 13:45 |
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| dmsimard|off | mnaser: your questions made me think about the olso etcd implementation. Do you know if that ended up landing ? | 14:19 |
| mnaser | dmsimard|off: i dont think so | 14:20 |
| mnaser | https://specs.openstack.org/openstack/oslo-specs/specs/queens/oslo-config-drivers.html | 14:20 |
| openstackgerrit | Jean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/governance master: Add os_masakari to OpenStack-Ansible https://review.openstack.org/562617 | 14:41 |
| dhellmann | dmsimard|off, mnaser : the tripleo team decided to go a different direction and didn't need the driver. We are still working on enabling drivers in oslo.config so we can hook up castellan for secret storage. I hope we'll have that done this cycle. | 14:57 |
| dmsimard|off | dhellmann: thanks | 14:58 |
| * ttx waves from cdg, I'll be around for the first 15min | 14:58 | |
| dhellmann | ttx: o/ | 14:59 |
| cmurphy | o/ | 14:59 |
| dhellmann | tc-members: it's that time again | 15:00 |
| cdent | people of the world, it is time for office hours with the tc-members | 15:00 |
| EmilienM | hello | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | what's on everyone's mind this week? | 15:00 |
| ttx | Hi! | 15:00 |
| cdent | I remain a bit disoriented on the current state of kolla-k8s? | 15:01 |
| ttx | I can summarize that | 15:01 |
| cdent | Also, was hoping to encourage other people to join the thread on board meeting topics | 15:01 |
| ttx | On kolla-k8s we were basically missing the input from "the kolla-k8s team" itself on the previous thread | 15:01 |
| ttx | Turns out that only Rich Wellum stpped up to answer | 15:02 |
| ttx | He entered a direct discussion with the Kolla and OpenStack-Helm PTLs to come up with an agreeable solution for all | 15:02 |
| ttx | I was CC-ed on that, they quickly converged to the idea that there was great benefit in having a single solution for "Kolla containers on Kubernetes" | 15:03 |
| ttx | so Rich proposed merging the two efforts | 15:03 |
| ttx | under the OpenStack-Helm umbrella | 15:03 |
| ttx | that was +1ed by the other two, but Jeffrey (Kolla PTL) preferd to have a formal vote of Kolla contributors on it | 15:04 |
| ttx | which is why we don't have a proposal to vote on yet | 15:04 |
| ttx | Personally I think converging to a single solution makes upstream and downstream sense | 15:04 |
| dhellmann | what would happen if the rest of the kolla team votes no? | 15:04 |
| ttx | Upstream because they will have a stronger voice with requirements to the Kolla team itself | 15:05 |
| dhellmann | would the outcome be effectively different? | 15:05 |
| ttx | Downsteam because it's much simpler to present a single solution that two very close alternatives | 15:05 |
| ttx | SO... | 15:05 |
| ttx | I told Jeffrey that the only thing that mattered from a governance perspective was his opinion as PTL | 15:05 |
| ttx | And that we could bypass and decide anyway | 15:06 |
| ttx | but would prefer a solution that is agreeable to everyone | 15:06 |
| ttx | dhellmann: so to answer your question, if the kolla team disagrees (which they don't seem to) we could still force the issue in the direction we consider the best | 15:06 |
| dhellmann | if all of the people contributing to kolla-k8s move to openstack-helm and just abandon kolla-k8s we'd have the same outcome, right? | 15:07 |
| ttx | basically yes :) | 15:07 |
| jroll | fwiw, kolla has established some sort of governance where they must agree on these things with a formal vote, don't remember if it's majority or unanimous | 15:07 |
| ttx | more of a cargo-culted tradition,ŭt yes | 15:07 |
| ttx | but yes | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I don't have a problem with communicating about it, I just don't want anyone to think that if kolla votes no the kolla-k8s folks have to keep doing what they're doing now | 15:08 |
| jroll | ttx: I think it's actually a written rule in kolla | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | it's up to them to decide where the contribute | 15:08 |
| ttx | yes I've tried to impress that on the parties involved | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | where *they contribute | 15:08 |
| ttx | jroll: sure, my point is that the TC does not have to abide by it. That's why all projects must have a PTL, so that we don't care about specifics | 15:09 |
| jroll | ttx: yes, agree, just pointing it out | 15:09 |
| ttx | and talking about it with team members is probably a good idea | 15:09 |
| ttx | dhellmann: yes | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | and my point is that even *we* don't need to vote on this, because it's up to the contributors to kolla-k8s | 15:10 |
| ttx | dhellmann: we'd still approve the removal of kolla-k8s from kolla, but that's more rubberstamping | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | we'll need to vote on the patch to either deprecate or change the owner of the repo, but the people can do whatever they want | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | right | 15:10 |
| ttx | OK, 5 more minutes, in case there are other questions I can help answering | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | while ttx has time to download it to his kindle, I'll mention that I've been finding this book very interesting: https://www.amazon.com/Meltdown-Systems-Fail-What-About-ebook/dp/B073NNNMBB/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1524141613&sr=8-1&keywords=meltdown+why+our+systems+fail+and+what+we+can+do+about+it | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | nothing earthshattering, but a good presentation of the issues | 15:12 |
| dhellmann | disclaimer that I haven't finished it yet | 15:12 |
| ttx | thx! | 15:12 |
| dhellmann | it should make good flight reading for any of the rest of you traveling soon | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | cdent : were you looking for more suggestions for topics, or validation of the topics you proposed? I think they're good ideas, fwiw (and should reply to say that on the ML) | 15:14 |
| pabelanger | o/ | 15:15 |
| cdent | dhellmann: two things: definitely more topics as I'd like to think lots of people care about this stuff (but fear they either do not, or feel there is not point); but also not so much validation of what I said as topics, but the requested refinement to get them somewhere discussable | 15:15 |
| * dhellmann nods | 15:16 | |
| dhellmann | ok, I'll give that some thought before I reply | 15:16 |
| dhellmann | last night I had the chance to talk to a software engineering class about "open source development processes" | 15:16 |
| dhellmann | they're learning about agile and formal methods, and the prof wanted someone to help them understand how oss is different | 15:17 |
| * ttx disappears | 15:17 | |
| mugsie | I have a topic, but it kind of fits between these two, so I will try and write it up and see if we should merge it | 15:17 |
| dhellmann | it was an interesting experience. They seemed a bit baffled at the idea that there wasn't anyone in charge. | 15:17 |
| cdent | in the "how does anything happen" sense? | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | yeah. | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | they had been learning about requirements validation and user acceptance, and wanted to know how that worked with oss | 15:18 |
| EmilienM | how experimented were they? (how old?) | 15:18 |
| EmilienM | (which grade I guess?) | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | I explained the idea that open source is about collaboration, so we expect lots of input up front and then iteration | 15:19 |
| dhellmann | EmilienM : this class was part of a masters program and they were about to graduate. It was a remote thing, in the evenings, so some of them were already working but some were not yet | 15:19 |
| EmilienM | that's cool | 15:20 |
| dhellmann | anyway, it was an interesting experience to see open source development from the perspective of a developer who has not done it before -- I've been doing it so long it feels normal | 15:21 |
| EmilienM | I wish someone explained me all of that 5 years ago :D | 15:21 |
| dhellmann | :-) | 15:22 |
| EmilienM | dhellmann: did you use OpenStack as "examples" ? | 15:22 |
| EmilienM | were they asking about governance things? | 15:22 |
| dhellmann | yes, I talked about some of the things I've done over the past couple of years | 15:22 |
| dhellmann | we did talk a little about governance, but it was mostly "process" | 15:22 |
| dhellmann | like I said, trying to relate it to "agile" or other more formal processes that they had already discussed in class | 15:23 |
| pabelanger | yah, when I talk with family and friends about opensource, and explain all my work is public, they don't really understand the concept. Or I always get, if nobody is in charge, how do they know you are actually working. | 15:23 |
| dims | evrardjp : +1 to patches from me :) | 15:23 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I've had the same experience talking to folks outside of the tech industry | 15:23 |
| cdent | the issue that comes up most for me in conversation (and for which there's never been an easy answer) is what do you do when there is a bad actor | 15:24 |
| evrardjp | dims: woot | 15:24 |
| cdent | If you work with someone in the same company, you can complain to your shared boss | 15:24 |
| EmilienM | in oss: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ | 15:25 |
| evrardjp | :) | 15:25 |
| evrardjp | fork fork fork | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I've seen other projects ban someone from the mailing list (temporarily or permanently) | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | it took a long time to get to that point, though, that wasn't the first response | 15:26 |
| cdent | I think the difference here is that the bar for "bad" can be very different in the different workstyles | 15:26 |
| dhellmann | that's a good point | 15:26 |
| cmurphy | that's what CoCs are for | 15:27 |
| cdent | In part because the available reactions are not very granular. The primary being ejection | 15:27 |
| dhellmann | the case I'm thinking of someone being persistently disruptive, but not necessarily hostile or anything like that | 15:27 |
| * cdent nods | 15:27 | |
| dhellmann | yeah, the PSF just sent out a notice a few days ago that they're going to overhaul their CoC. It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes they make. | 15:28 |
| evrardjp | +1 | 15:28 |
| cdent | dhellmann: did the concept of forking come up at all in your discussions with the students? | 15:34 |
| dhellmann | no, we didn't talk about that. they were mostly interested (or the prof was) in how "requirements" are discussed, approved, etc. | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | they did want to hear about tools, too | 15:36 |
| cdent | Jira! | 15:37 |
| dhellmann | and we talked about sustainability for a while, too | 15:37 |
| dhellmann | heh | 15:37 |
| cdent | sustainability in the sense of producing new contributors? | 15:37 |
| dhellmann | yeah, as part of my bio I mentioned that one of my focus areas was sustainability, so we talked about things like removing friction for contributors, finding ways to pass the baton, that sort of thing | 15:38 |
| dhellmann | https://community.redhat.com/blog/2017/08/stop-working-so-hard/ | 15:39 |
| cdent | someone pointed me at https://hackernoon.com/the-cto-drought-and-the-broken-pipeline-71e6bf1c0ebb today, which is vaguely related | 15:39 |
| dhellmann | interesting; I'll put that in my reading queue | 15:40 |
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| zaneb | does anybody here want to start the ball rolling with some questions for the TC candidates on the ML? | 15:54 |
| cdent | I wondered about that too | 15:55 |
| cdent | I was trying to wait for someone not-a-candidate to get started, and then if that didn't happen, start things up. Not sure how long to wait. | 15:56 |
| zaneb | cdent: voting opens on Monday, so I'd recommend not waiting | 15:56 |
| cdent | oh weird, I had assumed the campaign ended 1 week after nominations closed, but that's clearly not the case | 15:57 |
| * cdent adjusts | 15:57 | |
| mugsie | it would be good to get some current members (who are not up for relection) to kick it off | 15:58 |
| cdent | good idea | 15:58 |
| zaneb | "Polling will start 2018-04-23T23:45." | 15:58 |
| zaneb | so I guess Tuesday for all intents and purposes | 15:59 |
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| cdent | choo choo | 17:15 |
| pabelanger | choo choo | 17:24 |
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| EmilienM | lol | 17:35 |
| mnaser | "All aboard! Next stop Denver!" excellent | 17:49 |
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