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| mnaser | morning everyone | 12:37 |
|---|---|---|
| cdent | o/ | 12:39 |
| TheJulia | Good morning | 12:44 |
| ttx | hi! | 12:46 |
| smcginnis | o/ | 12:51 |
| dims | o/ | 13:34 |
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| dhellmann | o/ | 14:39 |
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| scas | \o | 15:28 |
| scas | (i'm left-handed) | 15:28 |
| smcginnis | :) | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | scas : I'm left handed, too, but I'm facing the other way ;-) | 15:36 |
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| mnaser | evrardjp: if you're around, openstack/openstack-ansible-security and openstack/openstack-ansible-pip_lock_down both seem to be retired but still under governance. do you maybe want to submit a change to retire them in governance too? | 16:21 |
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| cdent | musings is the right word for it smcginnis | 17:12 |
| cdent | or maybe even something more flightly | 17:12 |
| cdent | flighty | 17:12 |
| TheJulia | fightly sounds like a good startup name | 17:13 |
| TheJulia | or resistance movement | 17:13 |
| TheJulia | perhaps both | 17:13 |
| cdent | VC the resistance! | 17:13 |
| TheJulia | ++ | 17:14 |
| scas | the ico is presently being staged | 17:15 |
| cdent | the ico will be televised? | 17:16 |
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| * TheJulia is confused by something being televised | 17:28 | |
| cdent | TheJulia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaoXAwl9kw | 17:29 |
| cdent | weird: the description includes "No need to post about the Julia reference. I understand it now, thanks to those who told me. :)" | 17:30 |
| TheJulia | freaky | 17:31 |
| * TheJulia wonders if there is a time traveler here | 17:31 | |
| TheJulia | or there was... | 17:32 |
| TheJulia | Oh, it is in the song | 17:32 |
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| scas | we are all time travelers jumping from planck frame to planck frame | 18:53 |
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| openstackgerrit | Anne Bertucio proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Adds Cycle-Highlights directions https://review.openstack.org/579668 | 19:00 |
| TheJulia | annabelleB: Looks like you have some trailing whitespace in that | 19:01 |
| annabelleB | TheJulia: gah, just a few :) I’m the worst | 19:02 |
| TheJulia | :) | 19:02 |
| TheJulia | It reads well, fwiw | 19:03 |
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| annabelleB | TheJulia: fantastic! That’s the hard part. Whitespace is just my newb ways showing. | 19:05 |
| TheJulia | annabelleB: it happens to everyone :) | 19:05 |
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| openstackgerrit | Anne Bertucio proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Adds Cycle-Highlights directions https://review.openstack.org/579668 | 19:09 |
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| mnaser | i didn't really find something right off the bat | 19:27 |
| mnaser | but does any governance doc document anything about 'removing cores' | 19:27 |
| cdent | mnaser: there's some talkin the project team guide about that, a little bitr | 19:28 |
| cdent | not in the sense of needing to remove a "bad" core, though. Is that what you're concerned with? | 19:28 |
| mnaser | not necessarily, but say removing a core who is inactive | 19:29 |
| mnaser | i feel like if we have something written about "if someone hasn't made any reviews in <x> period, it is perfectly reasonable to remove them" .. to avoid some weird situation where someone feels oddly about removing someone else from the core team | 19:29 |
| cdent | yeah, the project team guide has some of that, if I recall right. Are you thinking a resolution of some kind would be useful as stronger statement | 19:31 |
| TheJulia | I would +1 a resolution which would make me feel less bad about removing completely inactive cores | 19:36 |
| zaneb | https://docs.openstack.org/project-team-guide/ptl.html#criteria-when-removing-new-cores | 19:36 |
| cdent | zaneb: did you just make some kind of equivalency between devstack and minikube? | 19:37 |
| zaneb | cdent: pretty sure I did, yes | 19:38 |
| zaneb | I even deleted all the snarky comments I might have made about devstack in the draft | 19:38 |
| * cdent strokes beard | 19:38 | |
| mnaser | so one thing that has come up through reaching out to projects was that | 19:38 |
| * jroll notes that zaneb has not used both of these tools within the same memory timeframe :P | 19:38 | |
| mnaser | there is this weird feeling of removing a core who was there before you | 19:39 |
| mnaser | even if they are inactive | 19:39 |
| zaneb | jroll: tbh I've barely used either of those tools | 19:39 |
| * cdent nods at mnaser | 19:39 | |
| mnaser | it feels (indirectly) frowned upon because it's rarely done | 19:39 |
| mnaser | blasting out an email to a mailing list of a few thousands devs saying "we've stripped X out of core" | 19:39 |
| mnaser | is a big heavy thing to say | 19:39 |
| jroll | in the past I've reached out to the core being removed, before doing it, to have a chat about it. I found that helpful for my conscience | 19:40 |
| cdent | mnaser: presumably you've spoken to (or at least tried ot reach) the person beforehand, at which point it is okay | 19:41 |
| * jroll removed the person that spearheaded ironic, that was tough | 19:41 | |
| TheJulia | jroll: that does help... | 19:41 |
| zaneb | yeah, that's good advice that should be in the project team guide | 19:41 |
| TheJulia | At the same time, we culturally should be ready, willing, and able to accept those people back | 19:41 |
| mnaser | cdent: right. however, it seems that in this case, this core did not get along so well with the ptl at the time | 19:42 |
| mnaser | and even though they have been largely inactive for over a year in the project, it might come off in a bad tone. | 19:42 |
| cdent | some people (not saying this is okay or not okay), simply remove people because in the last N months they haven't reviewed enough stuff | 19:43 |
| cdent | claiming that a data-based approached is okay | 19:43 |
| jroll | mnaser: feels like that's a special case, if I was put in that situation I'd use core team consensus | 19:43 |
| mnaser | is there a number that we feel like might be appropriate for "if you're inactive for x time, it shouldn't need a ton of moving around, messages, etc" | 19:45 |
| mnaser | you can just be dropped and it's okay™ | 19:46 |
| TheJulia | mnaser: I concur with jroll, I really feel is that there is a balance in each project that has to be maintained and each one is different, and consensus based is generally going to be the best for the community as a whole. | 19:46 |
| TheJulia | I feel like that would be okay if we purposefully pass a resolution indicating that it is okay as long as projects recognize that people's priorities shift, and sometimes they need to step away against their own desire. Sometimes people come back, it is okay to remove people who have definitely stepped away/left upon returning if they are going to resume being invested in the community and working on that project. | 19:48 |
| fungi | the tc mostly doesn't talk about core reviewers because those are a per-project implementation detail | 19:48 |
| TheJulia | we should recognize that things are going to vary, and if an arbiter is needed then the TC should be able to at least help resolve any such dispute | 19:48 |
| fungi | whether and how a project manages its core reviewers have been considered previously to be the jurisdiction of the ptl | 19:49 |
| zaneb | there were projects in the past which will remain nameless that had a metrics-based approach with a list of people who were on notice to get dropped from the core team sent out every month, and it was as toxic as all get-out in my opinion | 19:49 |
| fungi | yeah, i felt similarly about that approach | 19:50 |
| cdent | that anything is a per-project detail is something I think we might start considering as a bug | 19:50 |
| cdent | in the same that at least some are starting to think project identity is a bit of a bug | 19:51 |
| zaneb | I tend to agree with fungi that a resolution is not the place for this, but we could certainly improve the project teams guide from a vague list of things to 'consider' to a list of strategies for dealing with various situations | 19:51 |
| TheJulia | zaneb: ++ | 19:51 |
| fungi | if we start legislating details about how individual project teams self-manage, we might at least find out really fast which teams really want to remain part of openstack ;) | 19:51 |
| zaneb | kind of like we did with the code review stuff | 19:51 |
| cdent | yeah, the code review changes are an excellent model to follow: rules of thumb for a few different situations | 19:52 |
| fungi | i think that sort of thnig in the project-teams guide is great | 19:52 |
| fungi | er, thing | 19:52 |
| TheJulia | We really shouldn't say "rules of thumb" | 19:52 |
| fungi | recommendations on how to self-organize are well placed in there | 19:52 |
| fungi | i'm not a huge fan of "rules of thumb" phrasing either but don't feel strongly other than that we should avoid the term "best practices" like a plague | 19:53 |
| zaneb | TheJulia: why not? | 19:53 |
| * zaneb prefers 'heuristics' | 19:53 | |
| TheJulia | zaneb: the origin of the expression is not exactly... great. :( | 19:54 |
| TheJulia | +1 to heuristics | 19:54 |
| cdent | heuristics is a great word if you happen to know it | 19:54 |
| fungi | well, one of the "folk etymologies" anyway | 19:54 |
| * cdent looks up history of the expression | 19:54 | |
| fungi | but still fine to avoid it on those grouns | 19:54 |
| fungi | grounds | 19:54 |
| fungi | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb | 19:55 |
| cdent | interesting | 19:55 |
| cdent | also unfortunate | 19:55 |
| TheJulia | indeed | 19:55 |
| zaneb | ok, I had never heard of that | 19:56 |
| fungi | there are plenty of other, less colloquial terms we could use anyway | 19:56 |
| fungi | being an idiom, it doesn't translate well to other languages | 19:57 |
| zaneb | although from reading that page it sounds like that origin was made up by Americans in the 1970s, which may be why I had never heard of it | 19:57 |
| fungi | yeah | 19:58 |
| TheJulia | Anyway, I didn't mean to derail the discussion. I feel like there a resolution encouraging self management and maybe discouraging pure metrics based approaches to "core reviewer" group management. or encouraging patterns to handle certain situations that are someone uncomfortable but at times necessary | 20:02 |
| TheJulia | And with that, I'm going to go to the market! | 20:02 |
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| openstackgerrit | Anne Bertucio proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Adds Cycle-Highlights directions https://review.openstack.org/579668 | 20:46 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: fix a few formatting nits in new cycle highlights section https://review.openstack.org/579698 | 21:49 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/project-team-guide master: Adds Cycle-Highlights directions https://review.openstack.org/579668 | 22:01 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/project-team-guide master: fix a few formatting nits in new cycle highlights section https://review.openstack.org/579698 | 23:56 |
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