| *** eumel8 has quit IRC | 00:54 | |
| fungi | tc-members (and anyone else around): there's an office hour upon us | 01:00 |
|---|---|---|
| mnaser | o/ | 01:00 |
| fungi | also, we have ptl election results for senlin and tacker | 01:00 |
| * tonyb is here to spill the goss elections | 01:01 | |
| tonyb | ... not that there really is any goss | 01:01 |
| fungi | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2018-August/132983.html | 01:01 |
| fungi | is goss some new aussie slang i need to learn? | 01:02 |
| tonyb | goss is short for gossip | 01:03 |
| * persia read it as short for "gossip" | 01:03 | |
| tonyb | so I guess so? | 01:03 |
| fungi | ahh | 01:03 |
| fungi | maybe you're just all more hip than me (wouldn't take much) | 01:03 |
| tonyb | hehe | 01:04 |
| tonyb | Well it doesn't seem like there's anyone else with a topic ... so the TC election. | 01:05 |
| fungi | e-lection! | 01:05 |
| tonyb | The givernance repos says it shoudl be copleted 6 week prior to the summit | 01:05 |
| *** mriedem has quit IRC | 01:06 | |
| tonyb | so that more or less gives us a timeline of: | 01:06 |
| tonyb | Setting TC Election | 01:06 |
| tonyb | Summit is at: 2018-11-13 | 01:06 |
| tonyb | Latest possible completion is at: 2018-10-02 | 01:06 |
| tonyb | Moving back to Tuesday: 2018-10-02 | 01:06 |
| tonyb | TC Election from 2018-09-25T23:45 to 2018-10-02T23:45 | 01:06 |
| tonyb | TC Campaigning from 2018-09-18T23:45 to 2018-09-25T23:45 | 01:06 |
| tonyb | TC Nominations from 2018-09-11T23:45 to 2018-09-18T23:45 | 01:06 |
| tonyb | Set email_deadline to 2018-09-18T00:00 | 01:06 |
| tonyb | Setting TC timeframe end to rocky Release date 2018-08-30T00:00 | 01:06 |
| tonyb | Begining of Queens Cycle @ 2017-08-11 00:00:00+00:00 | 01:06 |
| tonyb | End of Rocky cycle @ 2018-08-30 00:00:00+00:00 | 01:06 |
| tonyb | Election timeframe: 384 days, 0:00:00s | 01:06 |
| tonyb | which put Nominations during the PTG | 01:07 |
| tonyb | my suggestion is we move it forward slightly so that Campaigning overlaps with the PTG | 01:07 |
| tonyb | and potentally extend the phases to allow for travel | 01:07 |
| fungi | yeah, that could make some nice synergy with (current and future) tc presence at the ptg | 01:08 |
| fungi | maybe a lunchtime panel? | 01:08 |
| tonyb | if the Campaigning overlaps with the PTG I'm sure we can get a formal (or not) q&A session to happen at the PTG | 01:08 |
| persia | That could be lots of fun, really. | 01:08 |
| tonyb | fungi: Yup! | 01:08 |
| tonyb | so I guess this is a heads up for the TC to discuss that idea while I pull together a review to set those dates | 01:09 |
| fungi | only real concern is that it _might_ be seen to disadvantage tc candidate hopefuls who aren't attending the ptg | 01:09 |
| mnaser | fungi: agreed, but also the discourse via email threads won't be there too | 01:10 |
| mnaser | so worried that we don't end up with activity like we usually do | 01:10 |
| *** annabelleB has quit IRC | 01:11 | |
| tonyb | fungi, mnaser: good points. | 01:11 |
| mnaser | tonyb: it would be nice to get something in the ML however to get more community thoughts + other tc members | 01:12 |
| fungi | most of the tc members are asleep at the moment anyway, so i don't expect heavy discussion of the proposal for another ~12 hours | 01:12 |
| tonyb | Okay I'll take it to the list | 01:12 |
| mnaser | tonyb: thanks for running all this stuff :) | 01:13 |
| tonyb | mnaser: np | 01:13 |
| tonyb | mnaser: I'm glad I was able to help with this election | 01:14 |
| tonyb | that's all I had really ;p | 01:17 |
| mnaser | tonyb: more than we usually have :P | 01:17 |
| mnaser | (at this hour anyways) | 01:17 |
| tonyb | :) | 01:17 |
| tonyb | mnaser: I normally have an in person meetign at this time otherwaise I'm sure I could find stuff the pester^Wchat wabout ;P | 01:18 |
| fungi | as you can see, it's typically fairly quiet | 01:28 |
| tonyb | :) | 01:29 |
| mnaser | :P | 01:33 |
| TheJulia | A lunchtime panel does seem like it could be really constructive... and this is coming from a person that fears public speaking. | 01:43 |
| TheJulia | But concur as well with the downsides. | 01:43 |
| dims | +1 thanks tonyb | 01:47 |
| fungi | i'm not good with public speaking, but for some reason talking to (large rooms full of) stackers doesn't feel like the same thing to me | 01:54 |
| *** ricolin has joined #openstack-tc | 01:57 | |
| fungi | also, i've seen you on the keynote stage TheJulia, you're great at it | 01:58 |
| fungi | and i guess our office hour has come to a close. next is thursday at 15:00z | 02:04 |
| * tonyb waves | 02:06 | |
| tonyb | rest weel | 02:06 |
| tonyb | well even | 02:06 |
| fungi | thanks! | 02:07 |
| *** openstackgerrit has joined #openstack-tc | 02:49 | |
| openstackgerrit | Tony Breeds proposed openstack/governance master: Update with results from the Stein PTL election https://review.openstack.org/589691 | 02:49 |
| openstackgerrit | Tony Breeds proposed openstack/governance master: Update with results from the Stein PTL election https://review.openstack.org/589691 | 02:54 |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 02:58 | |
| openstackgerrit | Tony Breeds proposed openstack/governance master: Allow PTLs to not have an IRCnick https://review.openstack.org/589696 | 03:53 |
| tonyb | fungi: ^^ should fix the '(None supplied)' problem we created :/ | 03:53 |
| *** jaosorior has joined #openstack-tc | 03:59 | |
| *** jaypipes has quit IRC | 04:11 | |
| *** jaypipes has joined #openstack-tc | 04:11 | |
| *** jaosorior has quit IRC | 05:27 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 05:40 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 05:52 | |
| *** eumel8 has joined #openstack-tc | 05:59 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 06:03 | |
| *** diablo_rojo has joined #openstack-tc | 06:14 | |
| *** diablo_rojo has quit IRC | 06:29 | |
| *** jaosorior has joined #openstack-tc | 06:44 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 06:51 | |
| openstackgerrit | Chandan Kumar proposed openstack/governance master: Add ansible-role-tempest project under tripleo https://review.openstack.org/589133 | 07:09 |
| *** jpich has joined #openstack-tc | 07:09 | |
| *** tosky has joined #openstack-tc | 07:29 | |
| *** jaosorior has quit IRC | 07:38 | |
| *** jaosorior has joined #openstack-tc | 07:38 | |
| *** jaosorior has quit IRC | 07:41 | |
| *** jaosorior has joined #openstack-tc | 07:41 | |
| *** jaosorior has quit IRC | 07:42 | |
| *** jaosorior has joined #openstack-tc | 07:43 | |
| *** cdent has joined #openstack-tc | 08:20 | |
| cdent | Update on the paste situation: looks like haypo may have keys to the kingdom: https://bitbucket.org/ianb/pastedeploy/pull-requests/7/allow-global_conf-to-override-defaults-see/diff | 09:41 |
| *** edmondsw has joined #openstack-tc | 09:45 | |
| *** edmondsw has quit IRC | 09:49 | |
| *** tonyb has quit IRC | 10:16 | |
| *** ricolin has quit IRC | 10:18 | |
| cdent | there's also: https://github.com/eventlet/eventlet/issues/513 | 10:19 |
| *** tonyb has joined #openstack-tc | 10:23 | |
| *** jaosorior has quit IRC | 10:58 | |
| *** jaosorior has joined #openstack-tc | 10:59 | |
| smcginnis | Oh, that's good. | 11:43 |
| smcginnis | Regarding TC term from the office hour - with Ocata being shorter, did that affect the TC election duration? | 11:44 |
| smcginnis | I was a little surprised the September folks would serve over a year. I didn't think we really tied TC terms to release cycles. | 11:44 |
| *** rosmaita has joined #openstack-tc | 11:58 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 12:34 | |
| *** jpich has quit IRC | 12:37 | |
| TheJulia | I feel like the possibility was mentioned last year that September elected folks would end up serving about 13 months because of how dates end up having to work for event scheduling. | 12:48 |
| *** mriedem has joined #openstack-tc | 12:59 | |
| *** edmondsw has joined #openstack-tc | 13:05 | |
| *** rosmaita has quit IRC | 13:08 | |
| jroll | scas: ++ on your pulled pork recipe, but you forgot the paprika! :) | 13:12 |
| scas | jroll: i almost never use paprika in practice, simply because i forget it exists | 13:14 |
| scas | the recipe comes out rather delicious in any case | 13:14 |
| jroll | heh | 13:15 |
| scas | i believe the expected response is 'thanks!', however early it may be | 13:15 |
| jroll | I haven't done a mustard rub in a while, I should get on that | 13:16 |
| scas | i was a bit taken aback with the mustard method at first. that, with the tomato/vinegar sauce, is a decent facsimile for not having access to a smoker. it's not the same, but it'll work | 13:17 |
| jroll | yeah, I used to do slow cooker pork all the time before I had a smoker | 13:17 |
| scas | the shredding until one doesn't see yellow is important | 13:17 |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 13:18 | |
| scas | unrelated: now that i'm on even release footing, for now, i have time to revisit getting releases gated. i believe openstack/openstack-chef may be set up for that without having acls | 13:20 |
| * cdent renames the channel | 13:25 | |
| jroll | we do need an #openstack-food I think | 13:26 |
| cdent | a few chill channels like that would be good | 13:26 |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 13:31 | |
| TheJulia | ++, and now I want BBQ | 13:34 |
| fungi | smcginnis: TheJulia: tc terms (or more correctly elections) are tied to summit dates (not really releases directly); whether or not that's a sane choice is up for debate | 13:45 |
| * fungi apologizes for not including an obfood | 13:46 | |
| TheJulia | fungi: that was what my memory was recalling | 13:46 |
| *** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc | 13:54 | |
| smcginnis | That makes sense I suppose. | 13:59 |
| *** annabelleB has quit IRC | 14:01 | |
| *** rosmaita has joined #openstack-tc | 14:18 | |
| *** hongbin has joined #openstack-tc | 14:18 | |
| ttx | smcginnis: TC terms are based on summits, so Ocata did not affect it | 14:26 |
| smcginnis | Ah, OK. | 14:30 |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 14:58 | |
| *** ricolin has joined #openstack-tc | 15:00 | |
| dhellmann | tc-members: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/589939/ is the patch to affirm Omer Anson as PTL of Dragonflow. Please vote there so we can confirm him, now that the regular elections are done. | 15:16 |
| dhellmann | cdent , jroll , scas : we had #openstack-social for a while, but I don't know if anyone is in there any more. It never saw all that much traffic to begin with. | 15:19 |
| cdent | I was mostly joking because if we had it somebody would insist that we not socialize in the "official" channels, and goodness that would be dire | 15:21 |
| smcginnis | /join #openstack-antisocial | 15:22 |
| cmurphy | srsbsns channels | 15:22 |
| * TheJulia glances at that serious channel, and only sees three people ;) | 15:24 | |
| jroll | cdent: ++ | 15:40 |
| *** diablo_rojo has joined #openstack-tc | 15:46 | |
| *** masayukig has quit IRC | 15:50 | |
| *** ricolin has quit IRC | 15:50 | |
| *** ricolin has joined #openstack-tc | 15:51 | |
| *** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc | 15:55 | |
| *** david-lyle has joined #openstack-tc | 15:59 | |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 16:01 | |
| *** david-lyle is now known as dklyle | 16:02 | |
| fungi | it's ## on both of those | 16:09 |
| fungi | ##openstack-social has a couple dozen lurkers | 16:10 |
| fungi | ##openstack-antisocial is one i started so i could talk to myself | 16:10 |
| smcginnis | :D | 16:10 |
| fungi | (mostly as a joke relative to the announcement when -social was created) | 16:10 |
| *** masayukig has joined #openstack-tc | 16:18 | |
| TheJulia | fungi: but you've not talked to yourself as far as I remember... | 16:22 |
| smcginnis | It would be funny to have a large group of people in that channel with nothing in the logs for weeks. :) | 16:23 |
| fungi | well, i realized that my hatred of all people extends to myself, so decided i didn't want to talk to myself either | 16:24 |
| fungi | and yes after creating the channel and having (some) people in there for long periods saying nothing, it became a much better joke anyway | 16:24 |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 16:43 | |
| fungi | TheJulia: in the wake of the interop wg meeting (which just concluded), i've updated https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/stein-leaderless with outcomes | 16:48 |
| fungi | summary is that the interop wg will accept responsibility for all the deliverables, qa was not interested in being responsible for python-tempestconf, and we'll work with refstack folks on the governance change to retire the team | 16:48 |
| cdent | weird. seems like a good match. | 16:51 |
| TheJulia | awesome | 16:54 |
| dhellmann | thanks, fungi | 16:59 |
| cdent | (in case it was not clear my "weird" is that it is odd that qa didn't want) | 17:00 |
| TheJulia | cdent: that was fairly clear, and I seem to remember the prior context was that they didn't want it, so I guess this is the best case outcome. | 17:01 |
| fungi | i haven't asked nor gone looking for a transcript of the discussion, so not sure what the details really are | 17:08 |
| fungi | but i should, as i'm also a liaison for qa ;) | 17:09 |
| * fungi scribbles yet another line on his to do list | 17:10 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 17:11 | |
| *** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc | 17:21 | |
| dhellmann | tc-members: mordred raises a reasonable point about the lack of IRC nicks for some of the PTLs on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/589696/. I like fungi's suggestion of formalizing that through a resolution to give the election officials backing when they ask for information from candidates. Can someone work with the election folks on writing that up? | 17:25 |
| fungi | hesitant to continue scribbling on my to do list, but since it was my suggestion i suppose i should | 17:27 |
| dhellmann | fungi : perhaps we can find someone to work with you | 17:28 |
| fungi | persia: diablo_rojo: tonyb: sound good to you? ^ | 17:28 |
| dhellmann | I'd be happy if it was an election official, too, but in my general push for us to pair up when taking on TC tasks I think another TC member would be good | 17:28 |
| *** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc | 17:28 | |
| fungi | i.e., if we have a ratified tc resolution requiring irc nicks for all candidates in technical elections, then we can just add a line or two to the validation job so that lack of irc nick rejects the proposal | 17:28 |
| cdent | do we want to do that? haven't we made it pretty clear that IRC isn't available to plenty of people? thus if we require it, we exlude those people | 17:29 |
| dhellmann | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Technical_Committee_Tracker#Clarifying_Requirements_for_PTL_Contact_Details | 17:29 |
| fungi | as with most things involving humans, the implementation is quite trivial but the policy will need some thought | 17:29 |
| dhellmann | we should have that discussion (see the wiki notes) | 17:29 |
| cdent | I thought exactly what mordred did when reviewing and then decided to let it ride | 17:30 |
| fungi | cdent: yeah, to me it's less about policy at the moment and more about keeping the wheels turning while we fill in the gap in details | 17:30 |
| dhellmann | part of the point is to ensure we can reach the PTLs, so I'm OK with making an IRC nick optional as long as we can reach them *somehow* | 17:31 |
| fungi | easy to add policy so that we don't have to worry about it in the future | 17:31 |
| mordred | cdent: we have? | 17:31 |
| dhellmann | and I don't think having only a chat nick of any sort is enough | 17:31 |
| cdent | mordred: I'm not _certain_ but we discussed that many people in china struggle to have access to irc | 17:32 |
| mordred | if it is clear that IRC is not available to plenty of people and we're accepting of that, I think we should fundamentally re-assess how we structure our real-time chat access | 17:32 |
| cdent | i think the problem is more along the lines of: access to real time chat is not universal, we need to restructure our ideas about it being a primary medium | 17:32 |
| TheJulia | cdent: ++ | 17:33 |
| mordred | like, I do not understand how I am supposed to participate in the community if I cannot expect members of the community to use our communication channels | 17:33 |
| cdent | mordred: it is challenging, yes | 17:33 |
| mordred | cdent: I fundamentally disagree - I think real-time chat is an essential part of our community structure | 17:33 |
| cdent | mordred: I left out a word: "_if_ access to real..." | 17:34 |
| mordred | ah - yes | 17:34 |
| cdent | but the evidence from people who have journeyed to china recently is that it is the case that it is not universal | 17:34 |
| mordred | cdent: I'd say we either need to restructure our ideas about it being a primary medium or we need to restructure our ideas about hw we're approaching real-time chat | 17:35 |
| fungi | access to available time to participate in the community is also not universally available to all. access to computer networks may not even be readily available to some. there is probably a point where we need to draw the line on things we can reasonably expect people to find access to if they want to engage in the community consistently in leadership activities | 17:36 |
| TheJulia | mordred: is real time chat even globally or universally possible except for the time zones any given person is awake in? | 17:36 |
| mordred | TheJulia: a single realtime chat that includes all the global timezones at once, no- but I frequently real-time chat with people in APAC and EMEA when our timezones overlap | 17:36 |
| mordred | and it is often an essential part in moving understanding forward | 17:37 |
| mordred | or I'll stay up late so that I can do such a thing when needed | 17:37 |
| mordred | in any case - we're talking about PTLs - not about requiring every openstack contributor to have unfettered access to IRC | 17:37 |
| fungi | i find the first contact sig meeting chair a notable example. she exists in pst/pdt and runs the meeting at 08:00 utc for the benefit of apac/emea folk | 17:38 |
| fungi | (and then struggles every wednesday to survive on a few hours of sleep... i couldn't do that week after week) | 17:40 |
| TheJulia | I concur it would be good, but I think we can only highly recommend PTLs to participate on IRC in order to move things forward. Some secondary means of contact is needed I think. Making it mandatory seems exclusionary. | 17:41 |
| *** ricolin has quit IRC | 17:41 | |
| fungi | #thanks diablo_rojo for chairing the First Contact SIG meeting every week at such an unfortunate hour in your night! | 17:41 |
| openstackstatus | fungi: Added your thanks to Thanks page (https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Thanks) | 17:41 |
| mordred | we make gerrit mandatory, and people exist in places that port-block port 29418 | 17:41 |
| persia | I don't think we should either require IRC nicks for elections nor should the TC pass a resolution indicating it ought be done. | 17:41 |
| TheJulia | mordred: although we're able to reach https on review.o.o in china. | 17:42 |
| persia | On the other hand, I'm perfectly happy to draft an email (from me) publically shaming folk who are known active on IRC and didn't register their nicks properly. | 17:42 |
| persia | (as part of a general call for folk to register their IRC nicks with the foundation profiles) | 17:42 |
| mordred | TheJulia: that is because someone somewhere has done some work to make sure that is true | 17:42 |
| TheJulia | Has someone though? Or is it only via the nature of the medium and coincidence that we just so happen to be able to reach gerrit's https interface and can post changes through it if we have our password? | 17:45 |
| mordred | TheJulia: I do not know. I think it would be worthwhile for someone to reach out to someone and see what options we have or what options might be open to us or if there is a way to work with the authorities in question | 17:46 |
| persia | TheJulia: Someone has. There exists a whitelist for https. | 17:46 |
| fungi | also the gerrit devs have done the work to make sure things like authenticated push over http(s) and retrieval of the change-if commit hook retrieval work, the git-review contributors have added support for those transports, and people in the community have gone to the effort to experiment and document how to bring it all together | 17:47 |
| mordred | like, I would personally rather we migrated wholesale from IRC to something else if IRC is fundamentaly unworkable in some world regions but another free alternative exists that is acceptable - than to accept the status quo and leave some of our community in a position of being perpetual second-class citizens | 17:47 |
| fungi | that is all "some (significant amount of)" work | 17:47 |
| * diablo_rojo is catching up and looking at PTL IRC nick patch | 17:47 | |
| TheJulia | mordred: I completely agree, but I think IRC is ingrained in this community so it would also be worthy uphill battle if we were to move. | 17:49 |
| persia | mordred: I believe that such an alternative is unlikely. The issue with IRC has little to do with the transport protocols. I also don't think it possible to have a frank discussion about the issues in a publically-logged forum. | 17:49 |
| * TheJulia just so happened to get yet another spam message while typing out the last message | 17:49 | |
| mordred | TheJulia: you can set +R on yourself, fwiw | 17:51 |
| fungi | yep. there are political reasons to prevent people from communicating in an open and unrestricted manner across national borders. we can (and should) work to fix that problem, but just hopping from protocol to protocol is not the answer | 17:51 |
| fungi | nor is technology for that matter | 17:51 |
| TheJulia | mordred: Interesting concept, although then it would be more difficult for unregistered users to reach me :\ | 17:51 |
| mordred | TheJulia: yes. it would indeed. have I mentioned how much I dislike this spam storm | 17:52 |
| TheJulia | In this current political climate, I fear that it will only become more difficult :( | 17:52 |
| dhellmann | is IRC the only chat platform where it is possible to join and use it without registering? | 17:52 |
| persia | dhellmann: No, but it is the most well documented one, with the broadest federation. | 17:53 |
| TheJulia | mordred: I believe I've picked up on that :) | 17:53 |
| mordred | :) | 17:53 |
| dhellmann | persia : interesting. I'm not really that familiar with a lot of others, but all of the ones I know do require some sort of sign-in iirc | 17:53 |
| diablo_rojo | Personally, I kinda feel like PTLs need an irc nic, or to specify some other way to instant message them. There are a lot of instances where I need to get in contact with them and they don't respond to emails so I try to ping them on IRC as a backup option. | 17:54 |
| dhellmann | I don't know if we want to let us get into a situation where the only way to reach a PTL is wechat | 17:54 |
| TheJulia | I would be happy to list alternate contact methods for people to reach me | 17:54 |
| diablo_rojo | I realize my role is different than a lot of the community ;) But still, would be nice to know what other method they prefer if they don't do IRC. | 17:54 |
| persia | dhellmann: I'm thinking of *old* protocols, before people cared much about authentication. Usually horrible bandwidth drains (but at the time, folk using them at universities had more bandwidth than they could use), due to being full peer-to-peer, etc. | 17:54 |
| dhellmann | having alternatives is good | 17:54 |
| diablo_rojo | In a perfect world- they would all have registered IRC nicks and all have bouncers set up :) | 17:55 |
| fungi | persia: heh, the "talk" utility was great | 17:55 |
| persia | The mediawiki folk have an interesting solution to enforce that: they gate gerrit access based on freenode nickserv registration. | 17:55 |
| diablo_rojo | dhellmann, agreed about the wechat thing- I don't use it currently | 17:55 |
| TheJulia | Irc Bouncer as a Service? | 17:55 |
| dhellmann | fungi : ooo, we wrote a 3 way talk app in on of my networking classes. High Tech (tm) | 17:56 |
| mordred | we've talked about running some sort of bouncer or gateway service for folks | 17:56 |
| persia | TheJulia: There's been a spec for that for a couple years. | 17:56 |
| dhellmann | I feel like this conversation keeps coming back to matrix and then lack of time and then dying. | 17:56 |
| mordred | well, matrix is next on my list after I finish this base ansible-ification of infra things | 17:56 |
| persia | matrix doesn't solve the underlying problem. | 17:56 |
| fungi | having looked into it as much out of morbid curiosity than anything, even the open source wechat clients require you to authenticate with a mobile device first to report your gps coordinates to the chinese government before you can log in, and the application also basically has full access to backdoor the device on which you install it (and has effectively been used to that end in earlier releases too) | 17:57 |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 17:57 | |
| persia | Fundamentally, the preferred mechanisms of communication have to match the means of communication used by the participants in the community. Those participants must be free to use those means of communications in their home jurisdictions. How we communicate defines the "we" communicating. | 17:58 |
| mordred | if we used matrix, one could then run a matrix in china for the chinese users which _only_ federates to the openstack matrix | 17:58 |
| mnaser | wild idea | 17:58 |
| mnaser | what if we ran irc.openstack.org on port 80 or port 443 | 17:58 |
| persia | mordred: For some value of "could", perhaps :) | 17:58 |
| fungi | mordred: does that actually work? does matrix federation traffic make it through the gfw? | 17:58 |
| mnaser | would that help? | 17:58 |
| mordred | they can totaly still block that | 17:58 |
| mnaser | they can block tls traffic over port 443? :X | 17:59 |
| mordred | fungi: well - I think with the ability to describe a specific subset - we could make a case to the gfw folks that allowing something should be done | 17:59 |
| fungi | mnaser: not really, gfw filtering is based on some application layer inspection so would almost certainly break non-http/https communication over those ports | 17:59 |
| mordred | whereas saying "please allow all of freenode" is a bit harder | 17:59 |
| mnaser | fungi: didn't know it was that wild | 17:59 |
| mordred | fungi: I don't know it would be successful at all | 17:59 |
| mordred | fungi: but it seems like we could at least put together a proposal | 17:59 |
| persia | Note: using technological means to defeat the stated policy of a nation is not usually a valuable activity. Also, early disclosure may invoke various treaties between westphalian soverigns. None of the individuals I've personally met in this channel are likely to want to have an adversarial discussion with that class of legal person. | 18:00 |
| TheJulia | although https just tls transported http without a step-up, the same support exists in some irc clients/servers, one would just have ot know to use it | 18:00 |
| mordred | persia: yes | 18:00 |
| mnaser | oh i have an idea | 18:00 |
| mordred | persia: I have no interest in helping defeat such national policy | 18:00 |
| fungi | mnaser: they do indeed block https traffic over 443. the chinese government operates certificate authorities trusted by most major browsers and can issue valid certs for any domain they want so that they can do content inspection of https traffic transparently | 18:00 |
| mnaser | what if we ran a webchat client on irc.openstack.org ? | 18:00 |
| mnaser | similar to the one freenode runs | 18:00 |
| TheJulia | fungi: TIL :( | 18:01 |
| mnaser | and that would be an actual real https content | 18:01 |
| mnaser | and maybe we can let it use openstackid for sso so it doesn't get abused | 18:01 |
| persia | TheJulia: Many sovereigns do this. Further information and details are available from mozilla.org (the gateway for CAs to be "accepted"). | 18:01 |
| mordred | mnaser: the problem is that it would be acess to unfiltered chat-communication medium - which hits what persia was talking about | 18:01 |
| fungi | this gets back to my point, we should work to solve this communication barrier but the solutions to the problem are not technical at all | 18:02 |
| persia | mnaser: Essentially, if any action is taken to enable the class of communication under discussion, it should be done in a way that has the pre-approval of any sovereign entities that wish to be party to said communication. | 18:02 |
| fungi | they are political, and require lobbying and activism | 18:02 |
| dhellmann | the other side of the question is we could get that portion of our community to use whatever thing we do set up. or indeed, for matrix, could we get the existing community to use it. | 18:02 |
| mordred | with the matrix filtered federation theory, the idea would be to work directly with the gfw folks so that what we're doing is allowing a medium over which developers there can talk with developers not-there - without turning it into a gfw hole | 18:02 |
| * persia agrees with fungi | 18:02 | |
| mordred | fungi: yup | 18:03 |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 18:03 | |
| mordred | I mena - this is WAY talking in the clear blue sky, obviously | 18:04 |
| fungi | attempting to "work around" political disagreements via technical means is at best avoiding the issue and at worst terrorism in at least some jurisdiction | 18:04 |
| fungi | (or perhaps treason? some "t" word at least) | 18:05 |
| * persia believes "some" in that sentence to include most of north america, most of europe, significant portions of asia, australia, parts of africa, and parts of south amerida | 18:05 | |
| mordred | fungi: ++ | 18:06 |
| persia | s/ida/ica/ | 18:06 |
| mnaser | can we see if there are any ptls who cant be on irc | 18:06 |
| mnaser | and then we can decide if we need to figure out a solution | 18:06 |
| persia | There have been some in the past. | 18:06 |
| persia | For most of those without registered IRC nicks this election cycle, there is prior documentation of them having IRC nicks and being on IRC. | 18:06 |
| fungi | and from an election officials standpoint, we simply carried over their previously indicated irc nicks | 18:08 |
| fungi | so the ones in that patch with no nick provided are new ptls where we had none on record and they didn't put it in their foundation member profile | 18:08 |
| *** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc | 18:09 | |
| persia | In at least one past election, pursued under different rules, we have reported "IRC Nicks" for PTLs who are rarely or never on IRC. | 18:10 |
| persia | (based on their person in question's positive statement regarding that being their IRC nick, regardless of frequency of use) | 18:10 |
| fungi | yeah, until this election, irc nick was the unique key used for all candidates, so was effectively required by process (rather than policy) | 18:13 |
| fungi | we switched to foundation profile e-mail address this time because it simplifies the automation of confirmation a ton | 18:13 |
| dhellmann | I noticed quite a few comments on nominations that had done that incorrectly | 18:14 |
| fungi | well, this ptl election anyway. it's the same thing we did last tc election but for ptls it was a change in process | 18:14 |
| * mordred got it wrong the first time | 18:15 | |
| mordred | but then- yay code review- I got it right! | 18:15 |
| fungi | yeah, i expect most of those just copied old commits (either their own or someone else's). we could have done a better job of reiterating that process change in our messaging | 18:15 |
| fungi | hindsight | 18:16 |
| * dhellmann nods | 18:16 | |
| fungi | i had expected the draft site builds to catch that and reject accordingly, but the sphinx extension was too lenient and so a (non-voting but soon to be voting) ci job was added to more explicitly check such things | 18:17 |
| diablo_rojo | So the plan is to contact the remaining ptls with no nicks and see if they have access to irc and to ask them to register a nick name? | 18:18 |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 18:20 | |
| persia | diablo_rojo: If the goal is just to populate the dataset, I suspect scanning meeting logs for the relevant teams will provide a significant number of nicks. | 18:22 |
| fungi | yeah, two actions from them: 1. add their irc nick to their foundation member profile, 2. submit a patch to the governance repo to add the same in the projects.yaml | 18:22 |
| fungi | for many of them we already did #2 | 18:22 |
| diablo_rojo | Got it. How do we want to divvy that up amongst election officials? | 18:23 |
| fungi | good question. i'm first trying to think of the best way to reach out to them all | 18:26 |
| *** annabelleB has quit IRC | 18:27 | |
| dhellmann | why not email them and ask them to propose the patch themselves? | 18:27 |
| diablo_rojo | dhellmann, +2 for delegation :) | 18:28 |
| fungi | right, that's what i meant by "actions from them" | 18:29 |
| fungi | i count 11 with no irc nick in their foundation profile, according to http://logs.openstack.org/76/589676/1/check/build-openstack-sphinx-docs/a8326a6/html/results/stein/ptl.html | 18:29 |
| dhellmann | do we need it in the foundation profile? I guess for validation? | 18:30 |
| diablo_rojo | I can send out the email to those people. | 18:30 |
| fungi | upkeep at this point really | 18:30 |
| diablo_rojo | I'll draft something this afternoon and run it by whoever wants to see it before I send it. | 18:30 |
| dhellmann | that foundation people database is so badly out of date in a lot of ways when it comes to contributors | 18:30 |
| fungi | more for if they run again next term it'll be provided by the tooling automatically | 18:30 |
| dhellmann | but yeah, let's get them noted in both places | 18:31 |
| dhellmann | and then figure out what we want the rule to be going forward | 18:31 |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 18:31 | |
| fungi | in the future elections we can have some better means of prompting them to do that proactively (whether or not we determine it's required) | 18:31 |
| diablo_rojo | That sounds good to me. | 18:32 |
| *** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc | 18:34 | |
| dhellmann | ++ | 18:38 |
| diablo_rojo | dhellmann, fungi persia I drafted something short and sweet- make changes as you like: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ptls-with-no-nicks | 18:59 |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 18:59 | |
| persia | diablo_rojo: Do you feel we should require nick registration, or just nicks? There are lots of folk with unregistered nicks and persistent presence. | 19:00 |
| persia | Also, there are lots of folk who *have* registered nicks, but do not maintain persistent IRC connections, such that IRC may not be a good way to reach them if their email doesn't work. | 19:02 |
| * persia is confused as to whether the requirement is "IRC Nick" or "Have a registered means by which one can be reached in preference to email" or "Have a means one can be reached in realtime" | 19:03 | |
| mnaser | persia: i think given the recent policy change of registered nicks only, it's a bit of a natural requireemnt | 19:03 |
| persia | mnaser: Thanks. That resolves the "persistent IRC presence but unregistered" case. Any thoughts on the other two? | 19:04 |
| mnaser | persia: i do agree that just having a nick but without ever being here is a bit silly.. so that's why i'm a bit torn/undecided on that | 19:05 |
| persia | In a recent scan of activity for some of the "missing" folk, I encountered a few that attended meetings but were not persistent. In other contexts, I've found that behaviour common for many folk who have a couple IRC meetings but don't otherwise have need to use IRC (many of whom tend to use a web gateway and close the browser when not in a meeting). | 19:06 |
| *** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc | 19:07 | |
| persia | If the goal is to actually reach people, another common case is to have persistent IRC presence, but not have a client on a mobile device, whilst also being in the habit of realtime messaging using email from a mobile device. | 19:07 |
| persia | diablo_rojo: Summary: email looks fine, except I'm uncertain what "some other more realtime means of contacting you." might mean, especially for folk for whom IRC isn't persistently realtime or folk for whom email is persistently realtime. | 19:09 |
| fungi | i'll take a look at it in a bit, but probably best to just say "if you have an irc nick, add it in these places..." | 19:11 |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 19:11 | |
| fungi | since we don't have any actual policy (yet at least) | 19:11 |
| persia | That makes sense to me. At least one new PTL has been using an unregistered nick for the past several months. Be interesting to see what happens when trying to use a +r channel. | 19:14 |
| smcginnis | Well isn't that nice, fungi just invited me to go to Berlin. :) | 19:16 |
| fungi | hope to see you there! | 19:16 |
| smcginnis | :) | 19:16 |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 19:19 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 19:23 | |
| *** zaneb has quit IRC | 19:30 | |
| diablo_rojo | persia, I had something in there about (besides email) that I took out, but am happy to add it back | 19:33 |
| persia | diablo_rojo: I'll add a suggestion | 19:34 |
| diablo_rojo | Thanks persia | 19:34 |
| persia | Does that work for you? | 19:35 |
| *** zaneb has joined #openstack-tc | 19:35 | |
| diablo_rojo | persia, works for me | 19:35 |
| persia | The first "Alt" is based on fungi's comment above. I'm a little worried about the change it causes to "If you have access" on the following line though. | 19:36 |
| dhellmann | like I said before, I don't think we want a bunch of wechat IDs as alternatives | 19:36 |
| dhellmann | nor would we want phone numbers | 19:36 |
| persia | So, what do we want? | 19:37 |
| diablo_rojo | dhellmann, we can add some more phrasing around what sort of contact info we want | 19:38 |
| persia | There is a current PTL for which I can find no evidence that IRC has ever been used, and substantive parts of recent "IRC Meetings" have been conducted on wechat. | 19:38 |
| persia | Some neighbour communities (especially just off the edges of the neutron space) have "IRC Meetings" that are used to take attendence for telephone conferences: in that situation, I would expect a phone number to be the best alternative. | 19:39 |
| dhellmann | for right now I think we don't want anyone to assume the TC will use anything other than email or IRC to contact them | 19:39 |
| persia | Then perhaps just strike the last line? | 19:40 |
| dhellmann | the release team also uses that contact info, for instance, and as a release manager I'm not about to start making phone calls | 19:40 |
| dhellmann | so if they don't have IRC, they need to give us an email address for which the actually read and respond to messages | 19:40 |
| dhellmann | well, they need to do that whether they have IRC or not :-) | 19:40 |
| persia | Since we're only sending this to their registered email address, we're assuming this is an address they read and to which they respond. | 19:40 |
| dhellmann | I would hope that to be true | 19:41 |
| dhellmann | I have not necessarily found it so in the past | 19:41 |
| dhellmann | however, I think that's the best we can do | 19:41 |
| persia | If our assumption is valid, people will take the action. If our assumption is invalid, the content of the message will not impact the behaviour of the individual. | 19:41 |
| dhellmann | quite | 19:41 |
| dhellmann | perhaps we should focus this message on getting IRC info from anyone who has it and hasn't given it to us | 19:42 |
| diablo_rojo | So... cut the last part then? | 19:42 |
| dhellmann | yes, I think so | 19:42 |
| dhellmann | I'm a bit concerned that we have teams having their meetings on wechat, since I think we consider that a closed platform. | 19:43 |
| diablo_rojo | dhellmann, lines 22-42 sound okay? | 19:43 |
| diablo_rojo | dhellmann, I think so too, but I know that there are teams that have been having meetings there and on Zoom and whatnot. | 19:44 |
| dhellmann | diablo_rojo : I made a minor edit but that looks good now | 19:44 |
| dhellmann | yes, zoom is also a bit of a concern | 19:44 |
| dhellmann | although there are fewer geopolitical issues involved in using that | 19:45 |
| diablo_rojo | Cool. Will wait for a few more +2s from fungi tonyb and persia and then I will get it sent out asap. | 19:45 |
| dhellmann | I don't have a good answer to this. I'm trying to be practical and acknowledge that not everyone can use IRC, but we do stipulate that closed platforms should *not* be used. | 19:45 |
| annabelleB | been lurking this meeting…from the perspective of following release features, I’ve noticed a bit more of this cropping up lately. Makes it harder to track work. Might be time to remind the community the many values of open and logged comms :) (but this is probably a bigger and different conversation) | 19:46 |
| fungi | dhellmann: i'm having trouble confirming the veracity of the wechat meeting claim, so maybe ignore that until we have evidence ;) | 19:46 |
| dhellmann | fungi : ack | 19:46 |
| persia | diablo_rojo: Let's resolve the remaining "Alt": after that, I'm happy to confirm something to send (but the current content feels still like discussion) | 19:46 |
| dhellmann | annabelleB : yes, perhaps in our next round of health checks we can ask specifically about meeting tools | 19:47 |
| diablo_rojo | dhellmann, thats a good idea | 19:48 |
| diablo_rojo | persia, I think the conclusion for now is to ask about IRC nicks only and not ask about other means of contact. | 19:49 |
| diablo_rojo | I imagine will will reply being like no I can't IRC if thats the case. | 19:49 |
| persia | diablo_rojo: Yes. I'm speaking about line 5 vs. line 7 | 19:49 |
| persia | Given the +r nature of our channels, I'm now fine with unalterered line 5, although we should pick one :) | 19:50 |
| diablo_rojo | persia, I put a more final draft down between 24 and 43 | 19:50 |
| diablo_rojo | well...the line numbers are changing a bit | 19:51 |
| persia | diablo_rojo: Ah, then I think the work fungi is currently doing should be integrated, and then I'm happy. | 19:51 |
| diablo_rojo | Cool. That's 3/4 election officials then. | 19:51 |
| diablo_rojo | Do you want to be cced on the email fungi and persia? | 19:52 |
| persia | diablo_rojo: Yes please. Helps show it is from all of us. | 19:52 |
| fungi | sure, that would be great | 19:52 |
| fungi | tonyb: ^ ? | 19:52 |
| fungi | (if you're awake yet) | 19:52 |
| diablo_rojo | Will do. About to dip out to lunch and then I will send it out when I get back. | 19:52 |
| smcginnis | Related to the IRC challenges - Chris is fairly technical, so I am a little concerned about our more operations folks being able to get involved - http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-operators/2018-August/015638.html | 19:53 |
| * persia thinks it is still early in that part of the world | 19:53 | |
| diablo_rojo | Yeah its not even 6 AM yet | 19:53 |
| fungi | thanks diablo_rojo! it's not super urgent but i appreciate you knocking this out | 19:53 |
| smcginnis | Or our non-English, already struggling with firewalls and other restrictions, folks. | 19:53 |
| persia | smcginnis: The distinction between connecting to a relay network and connecting to channels is lost in many clients, which makes that sort of experience common. | 19:54 |
| diablo_rojo | fungi, its now or it will fall down the list and happen like...tomorrow...or friday | 19:54 |
| fungi | smcginnis: i fully expect us to roll back the community-wide ban on non-registered nicks once this spam wave eventually subsides | 19:54 |
| smcginnis | fungi: Yeah... until the next one. | 19:54 |
| scas | fungi: the spammers are part of a long-tail crusade | 19:54 |
| * diablo_rojo wants dumplings and will be back later to catch back up | 19:55 | |
| scas | this behavior is not new, it's been going for the better part of two decades | 19:55 |
| * diablo_rojo waves | 19:55 | |
| fungi | smcginnis: thankfully we have the ability to set channel flags in our accessbot now so can turn it on and off fairly quickly | 19:55 |
| scas | i don't mean spamming in general, but the ones behind it | 19:55 |
| smcginnis | fungi: Oh nice. | 19:55 |
| fungi | scas: oh, i know | 19:55 |
| persia | scas: It's about who is targeted. Currently, OpenStack is a target. I'm in other communities on freenode that have close to zero of this spam traffic. | 19:55 |
| scas | persia: "freenode" is the target, openstack is just a big juicy place full of channels | 19:56 |
| fungi | yeah, #openbsd has seen squat from the spammers | 19:56 |
| persia | scas: Yes. I'm referring to the juiciness. | 19:56 |
| persia | When the bots are configured to find openstack less desirous (because of awkwardnesses), rules can be relaxed and the target can be pursued in other channels. | 19:57 |
| scas | i don't think openstack is so much being targeted, but an innocent bystander in this. freebsd channels of which i am a member were being brigaded before the mass +r | 19:57 |
| *** annabelleB has quit IRC | 19:57 | |
| scas | chef-specific remnant channels were being brigaded despite the community being all on slack, just by them being there and allowing unregistered users | 19:58 |
| scas | it can look like openstack is being targeted specifically, but it's a lot bigger | 19:59 |
| persia | It's bigger than openstack, but it isn't everywhere. | 19:59 |
| cmurphy | yeah fwiw it hit a number of extremely low traffic low population channels i was in | 19:59 |
| fungi | i think they're targeting a lot of large communities (or communities they perceive as large) and trying to needle them to move off freenode | 19:59 |
| persia | At least one community in which I participate has been on freenode for > 15 years, all channels currently /mode +nt, no spam. | 19:59 |
| *** diablo_rojo has quit IRC | 20:00 | |
| fungi | cmurphy: low traffic low population channel which is affiliated with a well-known/large/high-profile project or community? | 20:00 |
| cmurphy | not particularly | 20:01 |
| fungi | shoots that theory | 20:01 |
| persia | Also, communities where lots of folk are -i are likely to be hit if neighbour communities are hit. Maybe it's worth adding "set your mode to +i" in our guidelines? | 20:01 |
| fungi | i figured convincing high-profile users of freenode to leave would be something the attackers could use to further discredit the network | 20:01 |
| scas | i set umode +gi for gastrointestinal relief | 20:02 |
| scas | but i also don't have many people who would want to send me a private message | 20:02 |
| * persia is -g, mostly because of participation in roles where comms from random folk are useful | 20:02 | |
| *** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc | 20:05 | |
| *** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc | 20:19 | |
| zaneb | it's everywhere on freenode afaict | 20:21 |
| zaneb | definitely not openstack being targeted specifically | 20:24 |
| *** cdent has quit IRC | 20:31 | |
| *** annabelleB has quit IRC | 20:34 | |
| jroll | foundation employees, do you have a way to contact nicole martinelli? | 20:46 |
| jroll | need to s/1.1/11.1 here: https://superuser.openstack.org/articles/whats-next-ironic-1-1/ | 20:46 |
| jroll | side note: there's a beagle on the sidebar of her profile and it makes me so happy. https://superuser.openstack.org/articles/author/nicolemartinelli/ | 20:46 |
| persia | jroll: Have you tried http://nicolemartinelli.com/contact/ ? | 20:47 |
| diablo_rojo_phon | jroll: yep | 20:48 |
| jroll | persia: I didn't really look, tbh. thanks, I'll just email | 20:48 |
| diablo_rojo_phon | I can do you her email address | 20:48 |
| persia | diablo_rojo_phon: It is on the page I linked (although she may have many) | 20:48 |
| jroll | diablo_rojo_phon: yeah, her foundation email would be great | 20:48 |
| jroll | keep work at work and all :) | 20:48 |
| diablo_rojo_phon | jroll: actually her nicole@openstack.o should work | 20:50 |
| jroll | perf, thanks diablo_rojo_phon :) | 20:50 |
| scas | i emailed nicole a couple days ago at the above. she's rather responsive | 20:51 |
| diablo_rojo_phon | Also, as a heads up, she's in Italy right now not at home so her response time might be skewed a bit | 20:51 |
| diablo_rojo_phon | Or not lol | 20:51 |
| jroll | it's not crazy urgent :) | 20:52 |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 20:58 | |
| *** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc | 21:02 | |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 21:07 | |
| fungi | it's her home away from home | 21:09 |
| *** mriedem has quit IRC | 21:30 | |
| *** mriedem has joined #openstack-tc | 21:31 | |
| *** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc | 21:52 | |
| *** edmondsw has quit IRC | 22:10 | |
| *** annabelleB_ has joined #openstack-tc | 22:31 | |
| *** annabelleB has quit IRC | 22:32 | |
| *** annabelleB_ is now known as annabelleB | 22:32 | |
| *** diablo_rojo has joined #openstack-tc | 22:33 | |
| *** hongbin has quit IRC | 22:54 | |
| *** gagehugo_ has joined #openstack-tc | 22:59 | |
| *** lbragstad has quit IRC | 23:01 | |
| *** amotoki_ has joined #openstack-tc | 23:01 | |
| *** evrardjp has quit IRC | 23:02 | |
| *** amrith has quit IRC | 23:02 | |
| *** dtruong has quit IRC | 23:02 | |
| *** mtreinish has quit IRC | 23:02 | |
| *** gagehugo has quit IRC | 23:02 | |
| *** amotoki has quit IRC | 23:02 | |
| *** mtreinish has joined #openstack-tc | 23:04 | |
| *** dtruong_ has joined #openstack-tc | 23:09 | |
| *** dtruong_ is now known as dtruong | 23:10 | |
| fungi | glad to see there are contributors eager to step up and rescue freezer from impending doom | 23:45 |
| *** tosky has quit IRC | 23:49 | |
| *** annabelleB has quit IRC | 23:58 | |
| *** diablo_rojo has quit IRC | 23:58 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.3 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!