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| fungi | tc-members (and everyone else who's interested): we're in another office hour window | 01:01 |
|---|---|---|
| * fungi isn't expecting much heated discussion | 01:01 | |
| * TheJulia turns up the dial | 01:01 | |
| fungi | this one goes to 11 | 01:01 |
| TheJulia | 11.1 if it is ironic ;) | 01:02 |
| fungi | woo! | 01:02 |
| fungi | how about 10/9? | 01:03 |
| fungi | (11.111111111111...) | 01:03 |
| TheJulia | ohhhhhh | 01:03 |
| fungi | fun with maths | 01:03 |
| * TheJulia is fairly sure 11.111111111 is not semver compliant | 01:04 | |
| fungi | it is, however, entirely rational | 01:05 |
| TheJulia | true | 01:05 |
| * fungi loves that the term rational means it can be expressed as a ratio... common latin roots! | 01:06 | |
| fungi | aside from spinal tap references and general maths and language geekery, seems like this was one of our slower hours | 02:16 |
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| dhellmann | tc-members: it appears that there is plenty of support for appointing a new freezer PTL. There are no real votes on the patch to drop it from governance, though. Should I assume that lack of support is opposition? | 13:50 |
| fungi | i'll -1 it, for completeness | 13:50 |
| dhellmann | fungi : thanks | 13:50 |
| cdent | dhellmann: from my standpoint it is indecision. I'm inclined to drop but it feels mean and sad in the face of a volunteer | 13:50 |
| dhellmann | cdent : yeah, I registered your abstention | 13:51 |
| cdent | ✔ | 13:51 |
| dhellmann | I am also undecided, for what it's worth | 13:51 |
| dhellmann | tc-members: I have the same question for searchlight | 13:53 |
| TheJulia | I personally think it would be unwise to drop something someone is willing to try and pickup and move forward, and as such have not voted since I would prefer to understand how others feel. That being said, the trove case kind of set the precedent that we as a group feel that it is better to have a volunteer step up and give it a try. | 13:55 |
| fungi | tbh i'm more conflicted about trove than freezer, but support giving all three another chance for now | 13:55 |
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| TheJulia | likewise | 13:56 |
| cdent | the (subtle) difference between trove and (searchlight, freezer) is timing. The latter were reactive in the presence of threat. Trove was a bit more positive | 13:56 |
| cdent | that is: the people involved with trove were more aware and engaged with the community | 13:57 |
| cdent | (at least it _appears_ that way) | 13:57 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: mark appointed PTLs for Stein https://review.openstack.org/591475 | 13:57 |
| cmurphy | I think that's on us though - we need to find out earlier when a project needs help | 13:57 |
| cmurphy | and alert the community | 13:57 |
| mugsie | I think we should be consistent with all 3, and allow them in for this cycle - people have stepped up, which is a good sign, but as cdent pointed out, trove was before the election, when removal was not on the table yet | 13:57 |
| TheJulia | cmurphy: I concur, but know from emails and discussions that trove felt it was better of until what felt like the last minute. | 13:58 |
| TheJulia | s/of/off/ | 13:58 |
| mugsie | I think we will be in the same position in 6 months for searchlight, and it will end up leaving goverenance, not srue about freezer | 13:58 |
| TheJulia | only time will really tell | 13:59 |
| cdent | from what I've seen downstream sometimes talks about freezer, but rarely about searchlight, but my perspective is limited | 13:59 |
| mugsie | it is unfortunate - I really liked the idea of searchlight, and I know a lot of people have ended up building other tools to do what it does | 14:01 |
| * cdent nods | 14:07 | |
| smcginnis | I'm for giving them all another chance and revisiting the current state of affairs next spring. | 14:07 |
| cdent | i've always wanted what amounts to a uuid index | 14:07 |
| smcginnis | (or fall if you're in the southern hemisphere, tbf) | 14:07 |
| pabelanger | smcginnis: agree, same thoughts as others. Given there is a volunteer now, lets see what can happen in 6 months | 14:08 |
| mugsie | cdent: even the ability to put in an IP, and get back the server, port, DNS records, and reverse DNS entries in one view could have been really powerfull | 14:08 |
| cdent | yeah, agree that's very nice mugsie, but I was actually thinking more along the lines of: instead of searchlight being the source of (duplicated) aggregated info, a service which provided what amounts to a uuid resolution service (so you have a url to get info from its source) would be nice | 14:10 |
| cdent | we've become habituated to duplicating data all over the place | 14:10 |
| mugsie | yeah, that would be very useful as well. We have build one internally | 14:11 |
| mugsie | built* | 14:11 |
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| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Update IRC nicks for PTLs https://review.openstack.org/590082 | 14:30 |
| zaneb | cmurphy: I rolled that suggestion about PTLs with no IRC nicks into ^ | 14:31 |
| cmurphy | zaneb: awesome | 14:33 |
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| mnaser | dhellmann: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/590071/1 was +W'd however the parent changed has not been (and it has enough votes and enough time) | 16:12 |
| mnaser | err | 16:12 |
| mnaser | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/591472/1 was +W'd, above is parent change | 16:12 |
| dhellmann | mnaser : yeah, I was trying to get a definitive vote on the opposing patch | 16:12 |
| dhellmann | I expect we're going to approve the appointments, and then the typo fix will go in with it | 16:13 |
| mnaser | oh, i understand | 16:13 |
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| fungi | EmilienM: to clarify your reply on http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2018-August/133330.html are you implying that red hat decisions are tripleo decisions, or does the tripleo community get a say separate from what red hat corporate decides? | 17:42 |
| fungi | i continue to try not to be concerned that tripleo is a red hat product, regardless of occasional signals that it might be | 17:42 |
| fungi | (and to be fair, cri-o seems to have several non-red-hat contributing organizations as well, so assuming this is alignment with cri-o and not alignment with red hat product development direction i'm not all that worried) | 17:45 |
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| mwhahaha | fungi: we're investigating adding support for podman in concert with the existing support of docker. Depending on availability of such container engines going forwards may limit what we can and cannot support | 17:56 |
| mwhahaha | we may or may not use cri-o as it's TBD. right now we're investigating running containers via podman instead of executing via docker | 17:58 |
| fungi | okay, so the original message about "docker is being replaced by podman [in tripleo]" was not necessarily entirely accurate, thanks! | 17:58 |
| mwhahaha | it may inthe long term but we expect the docker items to continue into stein | 17:59 |
| fungi | sure, just making sure it wasn't a decision forced on the tripleo contributors from outside | 17:59 |
| mwhahaha | it's an underlying techincal detail on how we launch our containers, we're will continue to support both as long as both are readily available | 17:59 |
| mwhahaha | there are larger issues with the usage of docker in general as a side effect of the docker/moby split | 18:00 |
| mugsie | mwhahaha: so would RH removing docker by default in RHEL may cause the docker bits to go away? | 18:00 |
| mwhahaha | they wouldn't necessarily go away | 18:00 |
| mwhahaha | as we've written our own layer to handl eboth | 18:00 |
| mwhahaha | paunch - is our middle ware to handle different container engines | 18:01 |
| mwhahaha | so what's likely to occur is adding a new podman backend to paunch but to the user in tripleo they aren't directly impacted | 18:01 |
| mwhahaha | for the user this ends up being a systemd/init thing where we'll have compatibility to a certain extent but there might be some nuances for each | 18:02 |
| fungi | makes sense | 18:04 |
| mnaser | dhellmann: does openstack/constellations operate with governance rules too? | 18:17 |
| mnaser | Andreas was hoping to get this stack approved but i didn't want to do something i'm not supposed to :) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/591739/1 | 18:17 |
| fungi | tc-members: heads up, we've been officially asked to determine whether we're okay with an ironic deliverable (asl2-licensed as usual) embedding sample data which is cc-by3 licensed (like our documentation uses): http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/legal-discuss/2018-August/000504.html | 18:20 |
| fungi | doesn't seem onerous, but was the subject of a somewhat lengthy thread on that ml so we likely still want to be thorough | 18:20 |
| TheJulia | It doesn't seem like it would be sample data, more as a key to grok the data being returned from the remote API. :( | 18:21 |
| TheJulia | so that seems to be a gray area for me | 18:21 |
| jroll | it's the official chema I believe | 18:22 |
| jroll | schema* | 18:22 |
| fungi | ahh, okay so schema data informing an api client? | 18:29 |
| fungi | so could that make the client implementation a derivative work of the schema>? | 18:30 |
| fungi | maybe this does go deeper than i had thought | 18:30 |
| TheJulia | I think ultimately this is a desire for direct access to the data in https://redfish.dmtf.org/schemas/registries/Base.1.2.0.json | 18:34 |
| TheJulia | Data for the client to grok error messages it seems | 18:34 |
| TheJulia | It seems reasonable that a human could kind of decode/create a mapping but it wouldn't be the standard's data and thus the client wouldn't return the same messages to users. | 18:38 |
| TheJulia | I worried about having a crippled library if we have this externally and and it just can't grok the data it needs to return meaningful errors from the hardware. | 18:39 |
| TheJulia | I believe the contributor raising this works on behalf of the DMTF in this case. | 18:41 |
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| TheJulia | I've asked that contributor to join, but I'm guessing they have already called it a day or quietly tableflipped because I -2'ed the two patches that delve into this | 18:46 |
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| TheJulia | o/ | 18:47 |
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| ajya | hi, read the logs | 18:49 |
| TheJulia | ajya: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2018-08-15.log.html#t2018-08-15T18:20:23 is what has been said prior to you joining. If anything we've stated is incorrect or needs clarification, please by all means correct us. | 18:49 |
| TheJulia | ajya: \o/ | 18:49 |
| ajya | it's not schema, it's more like a standard list of error messages | 18:49 |
| TheJulia | Okay, that is what I was thinking after reading the code and all | 18:50 |
| ajya | the service will provide message id like Base.1.0.GeneralError and to provide meaningful error message to user the sushy need to consult this file | 18:50 |
| ajya | these files could be shipped together with Redfish web service, but they are not mandatory | 18:50 |
| ajya | so sushy need to have the copy at its side as fall back | 18:51 |
| TheJulia | I guess I feel slightly better about the user being able to download in this case, as long as we can convey something if we don't have any information at all we can hand back besides the GeneralError | 18:51 |
| TheJulia | at least from a technical standpoint | 18:51 |
| dhellmann | mnaser : the constellations repo is just a "code" repo, so 2 +2 voters | 18:52 |
| dhellmann | ajya : does Sushy have its own redfish client? or does it use a library? | 19:04 |
| jroll | sushy is a redfish client | 19:06 |
| mnaser | i feel like this is kinda like having "debug symbols" when downloading a kernel? | 19:06 |
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| dhellmann | jroll : oh, well, then :-) | 19:06 |
| jroll | :) | 19:06 |
| mnaser | you can get more specific error messages by getting access to that information? | 19:06 |
| dhellmann | it sounds like their API just returns exception names or something, instead of human-consumable error messages | 19:07 |
| ajya3 | not only error message, but also its severity, it is necessary also to determine if it is success or not; | 19:11 |
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| dhellmann | ajya3 : yeah, I personally don't think there is any reason for concern about including the data. I replied to say as much on the mailing list thread, and asked for folks to state any issues they do see. It would be good to have the opinions of some other tc-members familiar with OSS licensing, too. | 19:23 |
| dhellmann | fungi : where do I report a 404 on the openstack site? https://www.openstack.org/software/project-navigator/ | 19:24 |
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| TheJulia | Hmm, that must have recently broken too | 19:26 |
| zaneb | dhellmann: I agree. if the authors of the thing consider it documentation, and it's licensed under the same license as our documentation, then as long as all the i's are dotted and t's crossed wrt attribution then I don't see any big issue | 19:27 |
| ajya3 | dhellmann, thanks | 19:27 |
| fungi | dhellmann: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-org/+filebug | 19:27 |
| dhellmann | fungi : thanks | 19:28 |
| fungi | yeah, as i mentioned, we have examples i was able to find in various repos, including popular oslo libraries, where cc-by3 documentation source code was comingled with asl2 software source code within the same git repository | 19:29 |
| fungi | not that precedent is necessarily a deciding factor, but it's at least fallout of the 2012 osf bod decision to allow documentation under cc-by3 | 19:29 |
| dhellmann | yeah, thanks for doing the heavy lifting there, fungi | 19:30 |
| fungi | i find legal policy decisions interesting enough to spend a few minutes digging around | 19:30 |
| fungi | mostly because lawyers are curious animals and i have an inner anthropologist just begging to come out | 19:31 |
| fungi | or zoologist depending on how you view them | 19:32 |
| * dhellmann has been watching better call saul | 19:33 | |
| dhellmann | does anyone happen to know where I can find the project mascot images? | 19:34 |
| fungi | there is a public foundation dropbox with all of them, i think. checking | 19:34 |
| mugsie | dhellmann: https://www.openstack.org/project-mascots/ | 19:36 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : perfect, thanks | 19:36 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : did you have that bookmarked, or did you find it by looking? | 19:36 |
| dhellmann | I poked around a bit but only found small images | 19:37 |
| mugsie | I knew it existed, and I knew the string in google "openstack mascot" had the page pretty high in the results | 19:37 |
| fungi | thanks mugsie! | 19:38 |
| mugsie | np :) | 19:38 |
| TheJulia | zaneb: That is kind of the way I feel, but I'm also superly cautious | 19:38 |
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| EmilienM | fungi: hey, sorry I was afk this evening (I'm in Europe this week). mwhahaha replied perfectly to what I tried to expressed (wrongly apparently) | 19:50 |
| TheJulia | An ironic contributor pointed out that the json being readable and searched through for a pattern is kind of like documentation for a machine to read. It brings a smile to my face and it is a moderately valid point | 19:50 |
| EmilienM | fungi: the situation right now is -if I can may to rephrase it- we're looking ar cri-o and try to see if these tools could help us the way we orchestrate containers in tripleo | 19:52 |
| EmilienM | fungi: our conterization story isn't done yet (we actually started in newton) so I guess our tooling with adapt | 19:52 |
| EmilienM | s/with/will/ | 19:52 |
| EmilienM | containerization (I can't type tonight) | 19:53 |
| fungi | EmilienM: no worries, mwhahaha did a good job of covering the topic, but the additional detail is also appreciated. thanks! | 19:55 |
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| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: [DRAFT] Add a Technical Vision statement https://review.openstack.org/592205 | 21:33 |
| zaneb | ^ discuss. | 21:33 |
| smcginnis | For the sake of argument, at least in some projects not everyone agrees with the premise there that cloud is the end all be all. | 21:43 |
| smcginnis | Rather API enabling data center resources which because of that can then be used in for cloud. | 21:44 |
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| zaneb | smcginnis: as it happens I just wrote a blog post about that https://www.zerobanana.com/archive/2018/07/17#openstack-layer-model-limitations | 21:47 |
| smcginnis | Oh right, and I actually read it even. :) | 21:47 |
| zaneb | smcginnis: I think you've correctly identified the problem though: some people indeed do not agree, and we've been able to let that slide because we've never documented what either group thinks | 21:48 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, I think in a lot of cases I've observed it's been an unspoken source of friction. | 21:50 |
| zaneb | if we can make it a spoken source of friction we'll be making progress :) | 21:56 |
| smcginnis | Indeed | 21:58 |
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| fungi | well, i think it's a spoken source of friction from time to time, but we can certainly make sure it gets more spoken ;) | 22:00 |
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