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| zaneb | cdent: I feel like writing florid emails is actually a useful skill as a TC member, so it's not unreasonable to make that part of the campaigning. the in-person thing just doesn't seem to fall into the same category | 13:23 |
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| cdent | Well, I would hope the desired skill is "writing emails" and "florid emails" is the equivalent of being an overtly charismatic windbag | 13:25 |
| ttx | mnaser: if you're happy not doing it, let's just give it to mugsie/smcginnis :) | 13:26 |
| cdent | mugsie and smcginnis are good choice for that gig | 13:26 |
| cmurphy | zaneb: actually from that perspective i sort of disagree, participating in in-person discussions is a big part of being a tc member and being unwilling/unable to speak as well or as loud as everyone else means your voice gets lost | 13:28 |
| TheJulia | I think one thing that is often missed upon in tech circles is that leaders need to spend time listening, and in-person does make it a little easier to interject to try and point out something that has been lost. | 13:33 |
| mugsie | I think it is a good idea, if a: all candidates are in the room, and b: it is well moderated. outside of that, it would be quite unfair on people who cannot make it,. even with a and b, it would be very difficult for people with social anxiety or a phobia of public speaking or have a different native language. | 13:38 |
| persia | It's not about one's native language: it's about one's facility with rhetoric in English. There are plenty of people whose native language is not English who are skilled in this, and plenty of people whose native language is English who are not skilled in this. | 13:41 |
| mugsie | persia: yes, very true. | 13:42 |
| persia | Note that at least one member of the current TC is not a native English speaker (despite his excellence with rhetoric in English and active engagement in TC threads in email, on IRC, and in person). | 13:43 |
| zaneb | mugsie: right, and we'll never even know how many of those people didn't even bother to run as a result | 13:43 |
| cmurphy | persia: I took that as implied, but yes you're right that native speaker is technically not what we're talking about | 13:44 |
| zaneb | persia: two, in fact | 13:44 |
| mnaser | ttx: i can understand if they're busy too, so if they are, i'll leave it to luck to decide between us :) | 13:44 |
| persia | zaneb: Are you sure it is only two? There are a couple others from bilingual countries, which makes it hard to guess. | 13:44 |
| mugsie | zaneb: yeah, that is true | 13:45 |
| zaneb | persia: no, I'm not sure at all :) but it's at least 2 | 13:46 |
| mugsie | The electoral commissioner in me loves the idea, but it would be an environment that would suit someone like me, not the diverse group we want to have run for and join the TC | 13:48 |
| * dims marks himself as non-native-speaker :) | 13:48 | |
| zaneb | mugsie: yeah, that's exactly how I feel | 13:49 |
| dims | zaneb : mugsie : persia : to some extent running for TC is a popularity contest, so we should try to get the TC candidates to get to know folks who they would not otherwise interact with ... that's what was going through my head | 13:50 |
| cmurphy | fwiw if there had been a mandatory in-person debate i 100% would never have run for TC, so I'm mostly not even talking about english skills | 13:51 |
| persia | cmurphy: I've seen you in active in-person debates. You should not so constrain yourself. | 13:51 |
| dims | cmurphy : that's why i was suggesting a meet-the-candidate-at-a-table kind of thing ... so folks can come chat with each person | 13:51 |
| mugsie | dims: yeah, the exposure angle is important. | 13:51 |
| TheJulia | cmurphy: likewise | 13:52 |
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| persia | dims: Yes. It is similar to folk in a city vs. folk in the hinterland as a single polity. One classic solution for folk in the hinterland to win elections is to ignore the big city events and spend a lot of time canvassing the hinterland. I suspect the equivalent is producing lots of wide-reaching content (email on threads, widely-read published posts (blogs, articles, whatever), and being visibly active in other fora: all combined with a get- | 13:53 |
| persia | out-the-vote effort. | 13:53 |
| mugsie | cmurphy: yeah, when I said "like me" the english skills were only part of it - having a loud voice and a background in debating was another part | 13:54 |
| persia | That said, if the big city people don't have the public events, there tends to be increased sense of separation between the rulers in the city and the populace of the city, leading to accusations of corruption and lack of public participation in the selection. There are lots of examples, although Rome is famous for it. | 13:55 |
| dims | right persia | 13:55 |
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| zaneb | so knowing that we wouldn't have had cmurphy or TheJulia on the TC if there had been an in-person debate confirms in my mind that this is the wrong thing to do | 13:59 |
| dims | ++ zaneb | 13:59 |
| zaneb | and fwiw a younger version of me would certainly have avoided it as well | 14:00 |
| jroll | mugsie: corollary to candidates not being there in person: voters that are not there in person don't get to ask questions or hear the answers | 14:01 |
| zaneb | younger version of me would probably also have been a terrible TC member, but probably not for the same reasons :D | 14:01 |
| persia | Perhaps reservation of a space in which something related to TC might happen, combined with avoidance of defining that something until it is known if all TC candidates will be present, might make sense? | 14:01 |
| zaneb | jury is still out on current version | 14:02 |
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| dtroyer | How about treating this like the office hours concept, and suggesting that those present could be present at say the scheduled happy hour? | 14:03 |
| dtroyer | no format, no other expectations other than being in the same place at the same time | 14:03 |
| dims | exactly dtroyer | 14:03 |
| jroll | dtroyer: ++ | 14:03 |
| jroll | "current and potential future TC members will be at X and happy to have discussions about TC-ish topics" | 14:05 |
| persia | dtroyer: That still creates the expectation/requirement that all nominees must also be PTG attendees. Being as the PTG is in a country that has more restrictive visa requirements (I know of several folk who can't attend for that reason), is that something we wish to imposse? | 14:05 |
| mugsie | dtroyer: yeah, that could work. I think dims's point stands as well, for people not well known, it can be difficult to break into the area | 14:05 |
| persia | We can't know the names of nominees much in advance of PTG though, which means that any messaging about what will happen will affect who is nominated. | 14:05 |
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| dtroyer | the timing of knowing the nominees is an issue, yes. but it is informal. I know I would much rather just be at a place and talk to individuals than sit in front of a crowd and answer questions. | 14:07 |
| dtroyer | and to not use the fact that a significant number of (potential-)nomineed and voters are in the same place at the same time is a wasted opportunity. | 14:08 |
| persia | So maybe just an evening governance event, which some people may use for informal campaigning, others to raise concerns, new PTLs might meet each other, etc.? | 14:10 |
| dims | ++ | 14:11 |
| TheJulia | dtroyer: ++ that was exactly what I wsa thinking | 14:13 |
| TheJulia | s/wsa/was/ | 14:13 |
| cdent | this of course assumes we need election (I hope we do). The UC did not. | 14:14 |
| dtroyer | even without an election I'd hope that our leaders would want to be available ;) /me looks at schedule finally… yes, we will know by then… | 14:16 |
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| TheJulia | I would hope we all try and be available for people that have concerns, desires, thoughts, or needs in whatever way/shape/time/form that takes | 14:17 |
| mugsie | TheJulia: ++ | 14:18 |
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| * TheJulia feels like she effectively killed a discussion :\ | 14:26 | |
| dtroyer | TheJulia: maybe you just finished the nail I started? | 14:27 |
| TheJulia | perhaps | 14:27 |
| smcginnis | I wonder if we could do something like have each nominee submit a slide with a picture and brief bio that can get cycled through during the lunch slideshows so people can recognize who they are and know who to approach during happy hours and things to ask questions. | 14:28 |
| dims | So we keep the slot that ttx was able to secure? "I was able to secure a happy hour activity on Wednesday (5:00pm-5:30pm)" | 14:28 |
| smcginnis | I was thinking it would be better just semi-informal throughout the week rather than a specific event geared towards that. | 14:30 |
| TheJulia | pictures are hard for some people | 14:31 |
| TheJulia | not everyone though | 14:31 |
| smcginnis | Pictures of crayon drawers are OK in my book. :) | 14:32 |
| zaneb | could we print "TC Candidate" prominently on badges perhaps? still disadvantages those who are not at the PTG, but shouldn't limit nominations and takes advantage of the opportunity | 14:32 |
| TheJulia | What I mean by that is some people struggle to mentally handle pictures of themselves, but crayons ++ | 14:32 |
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| evrardjp | zaneb: wouldn't that be a challenge so close to the PTG? | 14:34 |
| evrardjp | we still have time :) | 14:34 |
| mugsie | evrardjp: it could be as simple as a sticker on the badge | 14:35 |
| zaneb | hey I just come up with the ideas i don't handle logistics ;) | 14:35 |
| dims | LOL' | 14:35 |
| evrardjp | :) | 14:36 |
| dims | tiaras and crowns :) | 14:36 |
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| evrardjp | dims: https://gph.is/1geZri4 | 14:37 |
| dims | LOL | 14:37 |
| mnaser | i'm not one to shy from being center of attention, but i feel like some candidates might shy away because of how prominent this thing would be | 14:38 |
| mnaser | it could also be a distraction from their work at PTG | 14:39 |
| mnaser | i can imagine some who might avoid the whole thing to not have it say "TC candidate" or have their photos and names rotated all over the place | 14:39 |
| smcginnis | That's another fair point. | 14:39 |
| mnaser | on top of the pressure of having to address certain things, being asked about them on the spot, without having the time to throughly think about an answer | 14:39 |
| mnaser | vs email which allows them to compose their thoughts, etc. | 14:39 |
| mnaser | and also, this is the technical committee so it's not like we have some sort of 'requirement' to be able to deal with a ton of interactions in person/etc.. so it might put those with a good technical back in a bad position because they don't feel like they can express themselves very well | 14:40 |
| zaneb | mnaser: we can ask them after nominations close if they want the thing on their badge | 14:40 |
| cdent | I wonder if we haven't lost track of the real goal in the enthusiasm for "let's have a thing at the ptg for candidates". That's not the goal, that's a tactic for some goal. | 14:41 |
| mnaser | and then those who shy away from it will feel like they miss out on an opportunity | 14:41 |
| zaneb | my biggest worry is announcing anything in advance that could discourage people from self-nominating at all | 14:41 |
| mnaser | because of $social reasons, even if they are an excellent technical candidate | 14:41 |
| zaneb | because we'll never find out who we missed out on if that happens | 14:42 |
| persia | It is already effectively announced in advance if decided in this forum. The chances of a serious candidate for the TC not following this discussion (and related mailing list discussion) approaches zero. | 14:49 |
| * zaneb thinks persia would be surprised | 14:50 | |
| persia | zaneb: In that case, I'd assert a failure of transparency and communication. If folk interested in governance enough to want to dedicate significant time to being on the TC are unable to follow discussions, something is not working. If they are able to follow discussions, they likely are doing so. | 14:51 |
| zaneb | I'd like to think that too, but I strongly suspect that there are people interested but who don't have time to devote unless they have some official status | 14:54 |
| smcginnis | There is a bit of chicken and egg in some cases. | 14:55 |
| zaneb | anyway, i agree that anything decided in advance can effectively be considered an announcement | 14:55 |
| cdent | "don't have time to devote unless they have some official status" is one those intractable problems it would be great to fix | 14:56 |
| persia | cdent: ++ | 14:56 |
| zaneb | if we're fixing intractable problems now I'm gonna need to re-plan the rest of my day ;) | 15:01 |
| cdent | If we had the time to devote to intractable problems, then... | 15:02 |
| * cdent falls in a trap | 15:02 | |
| * fungi is not a fan of special things on badges (as someone who is often stuck with a special-looking badge) | 15:07 | |
| cdent | hey, you with the special badge, help me get to the airport | 15:08 |
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| fungi | i've been told that if i want a nondescript attendee badge to wear in forums they'll print me one, but since i need to be identifiable as someone attendees can approach to report things like conduct violations when i'm in common areas the pain of remembering to swap or flip my badge isn't worth it | 15:11 |
| mugsie | fungi: yeah - you get very special looking badges at these things, don;t you | 15:28 |
| fungi | it would be nice to be able to just blend in sometimes | 15:30 |
| smcginnis | Does the badge really have any impact there? | 15:33 |
| smcginnis | (kidding!!) :P | 15:33 |
| zaneb | mriedem: I endorse your proposal to split out nova-compute into a separate project and wish to subscribe to your newsletter | 15:40 |
| mriedem | jesus christ | 15:47 |
| fungi | smcginnis: of course i mean blend in badge-wise, i'm obviously not concerned about blending in fashion-wise | 15:47 |
| fungi | ;) | 15:47 |
| smcginnis | :) | 15:47 |
| ttx | looks like there is no clear consensus yet on that campaigning question -- I'll keep a hold on that 30-min slot on Wedneday at 5pm, and we can decide early next week | 15:51 |
| ttx | I exceeded my IRC line quota this week | 15:51 |
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| TheJulia | mnaser: going back to those who would shy away. I think worse yet would be that those people would feel excluded or unable to participate | 16:23 |
| cdent | TheJulia: yeah, so not just shying away, but feeling actively disincented? | 16:28 |
| TheJulia | yeah | 16:29 |
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| cdent | that's become a theme (an important one) | 16:32 |
| TheJulia | As someone who has a specific spoon capacity... I have to manage that to an extent... and anything that is going to massively consume spoons is something I try to avoid because it it negatively impacts the rest of my day to consume so many spoons at once. | 16:33 |
| * TheJulia hopes that makes sense | 16:33 | |
| cdent | well, to me, that makes an enourmous amount of sense, but probably because I'm much the same: spoon management is _really_ hard at openstack events | 16:36 |
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| fungi | instead of spoons, i use those little wooden paddles they give out with single-serving cups of ice cream | 16:43 |
| TheJulia | fungi: but do you get ice cream as a reward? | 16:45 |
| TheJulia | #mostimportantquestionever | 16:45 |
| TheJulia | We have a number of people in the community that are the same. I had one person tell me their recovery plan was to hold themselves up in their hotel room, order room service, and watch TV the rest of the weekend. | 16:48 |
| fungi | TheJulia: perhaps sorbet | 16:49 |
| fungi | or shave ice | 16:49 |
| dims | TheJulia : i step out for 30 mins or an hour or so during the day mostly lunchtime-ish | 16:50 |
| * TheJulia goes and deals with the headache she has been avoiding... changing flights around. | 16:50 | |
| notmyname | dims: a 30 minute break every hour sounds good ;-) | 16:51 |
| dims | LOL notmyname | 16:51 |
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| mugsie | TheJulia: that is usually my strategy - I usually have an addon trip to a US office after an OpenStack event, and sitting in the hotel room / hotel bar on my own gives me some regeneration time | 17:03 |
| fungi | i mostly curl up at an airport bar and hack on personal programming projects | 17:09 |
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| persia | I find it useful to separately consider the need to regenerate from each of social overload, schedule pressure, irregular (or uncontrollable) diet, overthought, toxin intake, insufficient mobility, displacement, and backlog buildup. | 17:18 |
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| persia | Taking time each day for some of these (for instance, I often go for a 20-40 minute walk most days, or get up early to spend quiet time alone), taking time between events in a pampered environment (hotel room, very supportive home situation, etc.) helps, but more importantly, keeping track of *all* the regenerations keeps one from falling into the trap of "get to a safe space, crumble into a pile, and feel unable to face things again". | 17:20 |
| persia | (the last can last months, and I would wish it on nobody) | 17:21 |
| TheJulia | uncontrollable diet is.... definitely something I tend to keep in mind. If there is any corn out there, I shall glare at it! | 17:29 |
| TheJulia | Crumbling is definitely not good, and I too wish that on nobody having experienced it myself between Tokyo and Austin | 17:32 |
| TheJulia | (unrelated to stacker stuffs, luckily so it became an outlet) | 17:32 |
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