| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: move members file parsing into a reusable module https://review.openstack.org/608790 | 00:11 |
|---|---|---|
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: remove dependency on sphinx app from members parsing code https://review.openstack.org/608791 | 00:11 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: move the projects file loading code into a reusable module https://review.openstack.org/608792 | 00:11 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add a script to randomly assign TC members as liaisons https://review.openstack.org/608793 | 00:11 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: remove dependency on sphinx app from members parsing code https://review.openstack.org/608791 | 01:37 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: move the projects file loading code into a reusable module https://review.openstack.org/608792 | 01:37 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add a script to randomly assign TC members as liaisons https://review.openstack.org/608793 | 01:37 |
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| openstackgerrit | Liam Young proposed openstack/governance master: Add cells charm and interfaces https://review.openstack.org/608866 | 07:42 |
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| evrardjp | o/ | 08:55 |
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| gmann | o/ | 09:05 |
| gmann | office hour time ? | 09:06 |
| evrardjp | I think it is indeed | 09:08 |
| * lbragstad lingers | 09:08 | |
| gmann | may be we can be here if anyone have anything to discuss | 09:13 |
| gmann | dhellmann: submitted the patches for meeting things, may be we can review those. | 09:13 |
| lbragstad | i took a gander at a few of those yesterday | 09:14 |
| * mnaser is around | 09:15 | |
| mnaser | i'll be in EU timezone for the next few weeks | 09:15 |
| lbragstad | i think there are two reviews for meeting adjustments? | 09:16 |
| lbragstad | starting with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/608751/1 ? | 09:16 |
| openstackgerrit | Liam Young proposed openstack/governance master: Add cells charm and interfaces https://review.openstack.org/608866 | 09:16 |
| mnaser | lbragstad: i'm not a fan of the monthly model honestly | 09:17 |
| * lbragstad listens | 09:18 | |
| mnaser | lbragstad: 1 month is really not often enough to discuss all the stuff we deal with imho | 09:20 |
| gmann | mnaser: you mean to have more frequently or less? | 09:20 |
| gmann | ohk | 09:20 |
| mnaser | gmann: i think more frequently is better. | 09:21 |
| lbragstad | yeah, i guess i can see that | 09:21 |
| cmurphy | mnaser: in theory there shouldn't be that much to talk about and most of the meaty discussion should happen in office hours | 09:21 |
| mnaser | i mean we can always call off meetings | 09:21 |
| mnaser | cmurphy: i dunno, office hours do sometimes jump all over the place | 09:21 |
| lbragstad | unless we attempt to separate meeting topics from office hours topics a bit better? | 09:21 |
| mnaser | idk, i feel like office hours is for the community to come and talk to us rather than us talking between ourselves | 09:22 |
| cmurphy | well yeah exactly | 09:22 |
| mnaser | right now office hours is mostly tc members discussing | 09:22 |
| cmurphy | the tc meeting should be administrative boring tc-only stuff | 09:22 |
| gmann | true | 09:22 |
| cmurphy | it shouldn't take very long | 09:22 |
| cmurphy | everything else should be open to the community | 09:22 |
| mnaser | but we're bringing all the tc-only stuff onto the office hours | 09:22 |
| mnaser | and the community probably feels intimidated to bring up anything | 09:22 |
| mnaser | "they're talking tc stuff.. probably not the time to bring up my subject" | 09:23 |
| * cmurphy not intimidated :P | 09:23 | |
| mnaser | oh well | 09:23 |
| mnaser | what a surprise that is :P | 09:23 |
| mnaser | so i am more in favour of a weekly one that we can cancel if we dont need to have | 09:23 |
| mnaser | anyways, i posted my comments | 09:24 |
| lbragstad | something tells me we'll have to try and table "boring tc stuff" for meetings appropriately | 09:25 |
| lbragstad | regardless of meeting frequency | 09:25 |
| lbragstad | maybe that'll help with tc office hours seeming all over the place? | 09:27 |
| gmann | if weekly then, we need to adjust that in place of one of the office hour ? | 09:31 |
| mnaser | gmann: i think thats a good idea because we all mostly can commit to one | 09:33 |
| mnaser | we can alternate times too week by week | 09:33 |
| evrardjp | I'd rather go another direction -- Make sure the mandatory requirement to hold a meeting isn't applied anymore | 09:33 |
| evrardjp | as we have many ways to communicate with people -- I am not sure "boring tc stuff" requires a very different mechanism | 09:34 |
| mnaser | meetings are useful because we can sit down and discuss things together | 09:34 |
| mnaser | office hours kinda end up like meetings that are not called meetings | 09:34 |
| cmurphy | evrardjp: ++ i think the issue is it's hard to change the bylaws | 09:34 |
| evrardjp | If we have to hold "meeting" 4 times a year, I'd like to know why this requirement | 09:34 |
| cmurphy | mnaser: it's too hard to make that happen every week for people all over the world | 09:35 |
| mnaser | cmurphy: we don't need everyone, we need a majority. we could change it to to every 2 weeks, i just think once every month is so long | 09:35 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: I agree it's useful -- but if you're quite busy, you can still prepare a conversation and ask people to join in advance | 09:35 |
| mnaser | well the conversation to join in advance => tc meeting where we'd have an agenda prepared | 09:35 |
| evrardjp | or use an asynchronous media like email/gerrit | 09:36 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: yes but we are building generalities based on specific cases, this can lead to overengineering :p | 09:36 |
| evrardjp | but I understand. | 09:36 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: you have more experience than me, so I also trust your judgments. You are saying 1 per week is required, so I suppose you/we have lots of motions you want to raise | 09:37 |
| mnaser | it's hard for us to just say "hey can we meet at x time to discuss y", because we all have such differing schedules | 09:37 |
| mnaser | i think it's more as just holding proper meetings where we can even do things like follow up on action items | 09:37 |
| mnaser | sometimes we forget about things that never end up happening because we dont follow up on them with some sort of consistency | 09:38 |
| lbragstad | office hours might not be a bad time to follow up on action items | 09:38 |
| evrardjp | the trend is that there are 6 or 7 motions per year here: https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ which would mean, on average, 1 big discussion every two months. One meeting per month seem reasonable, but I am all ears | 09:38 |
| mnaser | lbragstad: but i feel like that takes away from time we're giving to the community to come talk to us | 09:39 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: agreed on the idea of following things up. | 09:39 |
| lbragstad | that's fair | 09:39 |
| mnaser | evrardjp: yeah but beyond the motions there is a lot of following up like how are teams doing, any new projects coming up, what did we say we were going to do last week, etc | 09:39 |
| mnaser | status of community goals, things like that | 09:40 |
| cmurphy | those things should be covered in the tracker wiki and the weekly update emails | 09:40 |
| evrardjp | that's fair, but this was more community related, so I expected this to be more office hours related | 09:40 |
| mnaser | cmurphy: cdent has stepped away from doing weekly updates, i think doug has been a bit behind of those (he's busy!) | 09:41 |
| evrardjp | it would mean that more people would be joining those conversations and ramping up on learning how we work, but that's my personal opinion | 09:41 |
| mnaser | i just feel like when we have an actual meeting with an agenda is a lot more productive than "i have something to raise the second we start this office hour" | 09:41 |
| gmann | little hesitate to include tc-only status things in office hour. it might end up consuming all of the office hour in that discussion | 09:41 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: I agree there | 09:41 |
| mnaser | and then its this little back and forth as we try to fit our subject in | 09:41 |
| lbragstad | well - mriedem and dhellmann have been doing weekly updates for accepted community goals | 09:42 |
| evrardjp | gmann: if you are talking about project x, it makes sense that project x takes part, it's a small step to be there during office hour, but I understand your point | 09:42 |
| lbragstad | it depends on what "weekly update emails" we're talking about i guess | 09:42 |
| mnaser | say someone has a specific subject they want to bring up | 09:42 |
| mnaser | they contact tc and we can slot it in | 09:43 |
| mnaser | rather than trying to somehow toss the subject and hope to find time by interjecting another conversation | 09:43 |
| evrardjp | I guess we have different opinions, and maybe clarifying the scope of those meetings would help? | 09:43 |
| evrardjp | (so basically start to work on the agenda) | 09:43 |
| mnaser | the patch proposes the chair or vice chair would send an agenda beforehand | 09:45 |
| mnaser | that would also allow tc members to decide if they want to come or not | 09:45 |
| gmann | yeah, it can give more clarity when we have specific agenda and actual discussion in few meetings. IMO, we should start(may be monthly first) and then decide the frequency it need practically | 09:47 |
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| evrardjp | or we can cut the apple in two and say every two weeks, and re-evaluate like gmann said. | 09:52 |
| lbragstad | +1 for re-evaluating | 09:52 |
| evrardjp | belgian compromise ^ | 09:52 |
| cmurphy | lol | 09:52 |
| evrardjp | if that's proper english | 09:52 |
| lbragstad | i updated the review with a link to this discussion and a super generic summary | 09:58 |
| evrardjp | sorry to be blunt, but we shouldn't be discussing a lot about when/how to meet... let's focus on meeting content, and meet every 2 weeks thursday after office hour? | 09:59 |
| evrardjp | thanks lbragstad | 09:59 |
| evrardjp | you're the man | 09:59 |
| * lbragstad blushes | 09:59 | |
| gmann | lbragstad: thanks | 10:01 |
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| ttx | late o/ | 11:06 |
| ttx | I'm traveling this week (and next) and will likely miss office hours | 11:06 |
| dhellmann | we specifically said we didn't want to cover lots of "hot" topics in these meetings, right? and that we wanted to use the mailing list for more communication? so I'm not sure why meeting more often is better. | 12:26 |
| dhellmann | mnaser : ^^ | 12:27 |
| dhellmann | evrardjp : the time slot we agreed on is the hour before office hours, because every hour later is an hour *much* later into gmann's night time | 12:27 |
| evrardjp | dhellmann: yeah my bad -- one hour before is fine | 12:28 |
| evrardjp | dhellmann: it was not for the hour _per se_ that I was saying that, it was to go towards acceptance | 12:28 |
| dhellmann | sure | 12:28 |
| dhellmann | we had already agreed not to reuse an office hour slot, although we did talk about that | 12:28 |
| evrardjp | yeah but the conversation spawned up again... :p | 12:29 |
| evrardjp | I didn't want it to become an everlasting conversation about when to meet, as this will never reach consensus | 12:29 |
| evrardjp | anyway, sorry for refueling the fire :p | 12:30 |
| fungi | i object to the notion that we bring much tc-only stuff into office hours. in theory almost everything we discuss could benefit from community input | 12:36 |
| fungi | evrardjp: as cmurphy indicated, the real reason we need to meet at least quarterly (for now anyway) is that the osf bylaws say so and we can't remove, alter or even relocate the text of that requirement without coordinating a vote of at least 10% of the foundation membership (a massive undertaking given that it's tens of thousands of people) | 12:39 |
| evrardjp | fungi: that clarifies how hard it is | 12:41 |
| evrardjp | fungi: could you clarify the "for now anyway" | 12:41 |
| fungi | evrardjp: ttx and i have provided some input to jbryce to forward to osf legal counsel about possible cleanup of the bylaws for things which make more sense for us to declare in our charter instead | 12:42 |
| dhellmann | evrardjp : we anticipate some changes to the bylaws to address adding new projects like zuul and starlingx. as part of that, we may see some standardization of how governance for those projects is described | 12:42 |
| evrardjp | fungi: that's nice | 12:44 |
| fungi | the ostensible argument for the meeting requirement having been included in the bylaws in the first place is that at least in some jurisdictions it may be hard to prove a governing body exists in any legal sense if it doesn't assemble with some declared regularity | 12:44 |
| evrardjp | dhellmann: that's also nice | 12:44 |
| evrardjp | fungi: I see -- this is not required in belgian jurisdictions for example, so that's why I was very surprised of the mandatory part. | 12:45 |
| evrardjp | as far as I remember at least | 12:45 |
| evrardjp | thanks for clarifying this | 12:46 |
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| fungi | well, i received this information on the assembly need second-hand or third-hand, so i can only repeat it can can't speak to its veracity as i've not researched the corresponding legal doctrine | 12:47 |
| fungi | s/it can can't/it and can't/ | 12:47 |
| jroll | fwiw, I feel like the office hours are at least as approachable as the old meetings, even when the office hours have lots of TC topics. the old meetings involved coordinating an agenda item (or hoping there was time for open discussion), posing the question, then watching the channel scroll by and trying to keep up. the office hours feel more back and forth, I guess. | 12:47 |
| jroll | at least as approachable, if not more* | 12:48 |
| fungi | yes, i don't think we want to get rid of office hours, and the meeting is hopefully not going to be used for things we currently cover in office hours | 12:49 |
| fungi | or currently cover in reviews and on the mailing list | 12:49 |
| jroll | it feels like mnaser may be proposing this, so wanted to throw in my 2c :) | 12:50 |
| evrardjp | jroll: valuable cents ;) | 12:52 |
| smcginnis | I am strongly against a weekly meeting and think monthly may be bordering on too much. | 12:53 |
| smcginnis | It should only be administrative in nature. Most communication should happen here in channel (office hours or not) or on the mailing list. | 12:54 |
| fungi | yeah, i haven't weighed in on the review yet, but i disagree with mnaser and feel like the meeting should only really be to fulfil the obligation in the foundation bylaws (at least for as long as it's still there), and that if we're having to meet officially anyway then we should do something useful with that time but we should not do anything that might be of interest to the greater community since | 13:00 |
| fungi | we've seen it's not a good medium for community participation | 13:00 |
| smcginnis | I agree completely. | 13:01 |
| mnaser | How do we follow up on progress and allow the community to bring up concerns? | 13:02 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: does this need to be a synchronous thing? | 13:03 |
| evrardjp | for me, every concern can be raised on the mailing lists or on irc | 13:04 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: I like the fact to have regular updates, and we have action items | 13:05 |
| evrardjp | s/and we have/and to have/ | 13:05 |
| evrardjp | but I am not sure this needs to be the "formal meeting" we are discussing over due to the bylaws. | 13:06 |
| fungi | on the subject of team health tracking, this cycle i want to see if i can get some of the health update discussions for my assigned teams to happen on the ml rather than via private irc (with an invitation to still reply to me privately with any sensitive concerns) | 13:09 |
| fungi | i feel like that might help make the process seem a little more transparent | 13:10 |
| fungi | last cycle i tried to do as many as possible during the team meetings, for transparency's sake, but that didn't scale well for me | 13:11 |
| evrardjp | I think it's more transparent and honest | 13:16 |
| evrardjp | to use the ML for this | 13:16 |
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| dims | fungi : or an etherpad too! | 13:25 |
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| fungi | indeed, but i mean for the discussion aspect | 13:34 |
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| dhellmann | it's interesting that we have 2 talks on hooking voice assistants to openstack clouds (one for google, one for alexa) | 16:13 |
| dhellmann | lots of kubernetes talks again, too | 16:13 |
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| smcginnis | Alexa, give me a cloud. | 16:26 |
| dhellmann | 2 talks basically reproducing Kelsey Hightower's presentation from a couple of years ago, but using openstack | 16:26 |
| smcginnis | Lot's of flash, little value. | 16:29 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add a script to randomly assign TC members as liaisons https://review.openstack.org/608793 | 18:27 |
| fungi | if you're looking for substance, we save that for the forum ;) | 18:27 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add a script to randomly assign TC members as liaisons https://review.openstack.org/608793 | 19:57 |
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| openstackgerrit | 98k proposed openstack/governance master: Don't quote {posargs} in tox.ini https://review.openstack.org/609132 | 20:59 |
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