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| mriedem | are there office hours now or are those dead, or is my calendar wrong? | 14:28 |
|---|---|---|
| dhellmann | mriedem : top of the hour | 14:29 |
| dhellmann | but if you want to start early, that's fine too | 14:29 |
| mriedem | DST | 14:29 |
| mriedem | damn | 14:29 |
| mriedem | just have some stuff from the public cloud wg meeting, i'll relay during office hours | 14:31 |
| smcginnis | It doesn't necessarily need to wait, but there may be more TC folks around (or paying more attention) in 30 minutes. | 14:32 |
| fungi | yeah, starts 1500z | 14:33 |
| fungi | so 9am your time i think? | 14:33 |
| mriedem | yeah | 14:33 |
| mriedem | i'm adjusting each calendar entry as i miss each meeting | 14:33 |
| * fungi has an hour head-start on caffeine | 14:33 | |
| dhellmann | mriedem : if you're using google's calendar, using the Reykjavík time zone will give you effectively UTC because they are GMT without DST | 14:35 |
| dhellmann | other tools seem to support UTC directly | 14:35 |
| mriedem | thunderbird | 14:35 |
| * dhellmann is more of a mad dog 20/20 man, himself | 14:36 | |
| mriedem | orange flavored booze, classy | 14:36 |
| mriedem | i also wonder how many times doug has made that exact joke | 14:37 |
| dhellmann | exactly 1 time | 14:37 |
| dhellmann | so thank you for the set up | 14:37 |
| smcginnis | Hah | 14:37 |
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| mriedem | ok so i'll dump this quick, in the public cloud wg meeting howard and tobias were talking about how it'd be nice to have something like https://releases.openstack.org/rocky/highlights.html but for community wide goals, to see progress on a goal within a given release, | 14:54 |
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| mriedem | which i've thought about in the past also - i'm not sure if there is any place that shows completion percentage of a goal | 14:55 |
| mriedem | but i think that would be useful | 14:55 |
| mriedem | i think they might have also been thinking about highlights for maybe non-community wide goals but things tracked within the public cloud sig that could show up in ^; i explained that doc is based on deliverables which the pc sig doesn't really have, so i'm not sure that is the best place for that infor | 14:56 |
| mriedem | i think to date, some projects just highlight individually if they have completed some goal | 14:57 |
| mriedem | e.g. the nova pike release notes just called out support for running the api under uwsgi | 14:57 |
| zhipeng | I don't think pc need to add deliverables for that, just related projects add the goal completion status | 14:59 |
| smcginnis | Tis time | 15:01 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 15:01 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 15:02 |
| lbragstad | mriedem i like that idea... we had some tooling to that kind of stuff that dhellmann generalized a bit, but it was more focused on project management parts of it | 15:04 |
| mriedem | the goal-tools repo? | 15:05 |
| mriedem | yeah | 15:05 |
| mriedem | i have to run, but i've dumped the thing so tc people can discuss it | 15:05 |
| lbragstad | yeah | 15:05 |
| lbragstad | https://www.lbragstad.com/policy-burndown/ | 15:05 |
| dhellmann | the release management team used to try to track the work done in a cycle by looking at blueprints in launchpad, but we gave that up because it was a lot of work for 1-2 people (at the time) and we didn't think anyone was really using it | 15:05 |
| dhellmann | we're using storyboard for tracking goal completion now, and yeah, lbragstad and I have talked about burndown charts in the past | 15:06 |
| lbragstad | i would think if you render an accurate burndown, building a representation for that with just basic percentages wouldn't be too difficult | 15:06 |
| lbragstad | s/representation/view/ | 15:07 |
| ttx | o/ | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | I do think it makes sense to encourage teams to include info like this in release highlights and to write more summaries in the prelude sections of their release notes | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | and I would be happy to see someone interested in collecting the information more centrally | 15:08 |
| ttx | mriedem: i remember some goal champions doing burn-down charts | 15:08 |
| ttx | ah, lbragstad linked to them | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | we started to try to make the code sdague wrote for those more generic | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 15:09 |
| lbragstad | it's ironic, since neutron just merged support for policy in code and glance is in the process of reviewing it | 15:10 |
| lbragstad | but i think that'd be the kind of thing that is useful to look at over multiple releases | 15:10 |
| zhipeng | Both burndowm and storyboard tracking looks good for our goal :) | 15:11 |
| zhipeng | As long as we could effectively track it | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | each goal document links to the storyboard story tracking that goal | 15:11 |
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| dhellmann | see the top of the python3 goal for an example: https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/stein/python3-first.html | 15:12 |
| dhellmann | that one had enough steps that there is 1 story per team | 15:12 |
| dhellmann | is anyone else following the OSF OIP guidelines work that the board is doing? https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BrainstormingOSFProjectConfirmationGuidelines | 15:16 |
| lbragstad | if we keep managing goal state for each project team in something like storyboard - then rendering burndown charts might be a lot easier than in the past (pulling a list of project repos from governance, applying in excludes list, asking gerrit for reviews matching a certain topic, etc..) | 15:16 |
| dhellmann | I guess the question for me is what value doing all of that provides, and whether it is worth investing time and energy into it. What would we say "no" to doing if we say "yes" to doing that? | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | I don't oppose someone doing that. I think the data is all there (or could be added with minimal effort from project teams). But I don't need it, so my motivation to work on better reporting is low. | 15:20 |
| dhellmann | gmann : what's the state of your patch to add feature discovery to the vision? ttx asked for a mailing list post, are you going to wait until after the new year to do that? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/621516/ | 15:22 |
| dhellmann | maybe I missed it | 15:22 |
| fungi | dhellmann: i've been playing along from home on the oip guidelines, yes | 15:23 |
| dhellmann | I haven't participated in the working group meetings. Have you joined any of those? | 15:24 |
| dhellmann | I'm curious about how things are progressing | 15:24 |
| dhellmann | maybe not much at all right now, since it's election season | 15:24 |
| fungi | dhellmann: yeah, i haven't been on their pop-up team calls (i don't think it's been delegated as an official wg of the board), though jbryce may be able to give an update if he's around | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | every time we have a new thing we make up a new way to classify it... | 15:26 |
| fungi | the osf put together a fairly lightweight straw man, and it seems like some of what's going on there is board members are naturally asking clarifying questions, but also maybe looking to put their own stamp on it in some ways | 15:26 |
| dhellmann | I left a question in the etherpad but don't see a response and I'm not sure where else to be looking. I can't tell if the group is using private email threads, meetings I haven't been able to join, or something else to communicate. Or maybe that they're just very quiet right now because of the timing. | 15:28 |
| jbryce | It's basically holding until next year | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | makes sense | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | tc-members: after a more careful scan of our projects list, I found that we added 3 teams this year (Adjutant, Qinling, and PowerVMStackers), so I updated the text I will be submitting for the OSF annual report to reflect that https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-2018-annual-report | 15:30 |
| dhellmann | line 96 | 15:30 |
| smcginnis | Looks good. | 15:31 |
| ttx | hmm | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | Qinling was proposed in January, PowerVMStackers in February, and Adjutant in March | 15:32 |
| ttx | yes | 15:32 |
| fungi | lgtm | 15:32 |
| jbryce | dhellmann: there will be public calls scheduled next year once the group reconvenes | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | jbryce : ok, that's good to know; I'll keep an eye out for the announcements | 15:34 |
| dhellmann | tc-members: during the discussions about managing python 3 updates, the folks from SUSE expressed interest in having their OS listed in the PTI under https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/project-testing-interface.html#linux-distributions | 15:37 |
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| dhellmann | do we have someone who wants to help make that happen? | 15:37 |
| smcginnis | I thought one of the SUSE folks were going to pursue that. | 15:37 |
| smcginnis | JP maybe? Or Dirk? | 15:37 |
| dhellmann | maybe? I didn't write down a name and didn't remember | 15:37 |
| smcginnis | I would think it would be best being driven by someone from SUSE. | 15:38 |
| dhellmann | oh, maybe JP did say he was going to do that | 15:38 |
| dirk | I can help if you want | 15:38 |
| dirk | I think JP volunteered though | 15:38 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I wasn't sure if we wanted to write up anything about how/why we modify that list | 15:38 |
| dhellmann | before actually adding the new entry | 15:38 |
| fungi | i have a feeling that's dependent on stabilizing upstream testing on opensuse | 15:38 |
| dhellmann | thanks, dirk | 15:38 |
| fungi | i know there have been a bunch of failing non-voting opensuse jobs moved to experimental and similar | 15:39 |
| dhellmann | yeah, do we want to make that a prerequisite? if so, do we want to write that down? | 15:39 |
| dirk | fungi: really? | 15:40 |
| dhellmann | right now the information there has the project teams as an audience | 15:40 |
| fungi | "Each project should run some functional tests on these platforms so we make sure OpenStack works with distros used in production." | 15:40 |
| fungi | i take that to imply we need those jobs succeeding and gating too | 15:40 |
| dirk | right, thats the part that I want to have clarified | 15:41 |
| dirk | at some point it was said its devstack and we have that | 15:41 |
| dirk | if its more then thats fine as well, we just need to define what the scope should be | 15:41 |
| dirk | its a bit of a tradeoff on burning extra ressources with little coverage | 15:41 |
| dirk | little additional coverage | 15:41 |
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| fungi | "have" devstack in what sense? like i said, i recall teams moving the opensuse jobs to experimental recently because they were failing and non-voting and didn't seem to have anyone actively engaged in fixing them | 15:42 |
| fungi | just curious where opensuse jobs are currently gating changes for components of openstack, or where they're voting in the check pipeline at least, or if they're non-voting for now then where they're succeeding at all | 15:45 |
| smcginnis | I would think the requirements would be "have devstack" and "passed tempest tests". | 15:46 |
| fungi | digging around, it seems to be non-voting but succeeding in check on changes to the devstack repo at least | 15:47 |
| fungi | see "devstack-platform-opensuse-150" results on https://review.openstack.org/625269 for example, which merged on monday | 15:48 |
| fungi | (note that centos-7 is also non-voting but failing on that change) | 15:49 |
| fungi | honestly, the only good argument i've been able to make that we're testing whether openstack works on centos is that tripleo does ~100% of their testing on centos nodes | 15:49 |
| fungi | devstack has had a very tumultuous past with centos and fedora. it | 15:50 |
| fungi | 's broken more often than it works there, from what i've seen over the years | 15:50 |
| fungi | and there's been almost nobody interested in keeping it working | 15:51 |
| fungi | (if i were a cynic i would say it's probably because red hat doesn't sell any devstack-based products) | 15:51 |
| fungi | so perhaps we make tempest the actual requirement? stand up openstack *somehow* on the target platform and then show that you can successfully exercise it with tempest tests | 15:52 |
| fungi | the refstack capabilities set seems like it would send a consistent message about our faith in our interoperability efforts, at least | 15:53 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I think that's reasonable | 15:54 |
| dhellmann | "on the target platform, in CI" | 15:57 |
| fungi | right, gating in ci. on which projects is probably a bigger question | 16:21 |
| TheJulia | And projects understanding where the happy path is in terms of if something breaks with one, does it forcibly stall all activities, or are they more at liberty to just change things over to non-voting as needing, as long as there is the velocity to recover it/get it working eventually. | 16:24 |
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| scas | i have personally dealt with this, from the peanut gallery and a deployment focus | 16:33 |
| scas | the solution in that case being consistent, but met with skepticism due to a long-term desire to be conservative with changes | 16:34 |
| fungi | TheJulia: in most cases so far the answer has been that if there's nobody engaged in solving platform-specific testing issues, disabling the jobs for those platforms is entirely on the table | 16:40 |
| fungi | we've done similarly when testing broke for pypy interpreter jobs, or jobs on aging stable branches became un-runnable, or special jobs for particular optional backends... | 16:41 |
| fungi | what we test is, to some extent, a tautology | 16:42 |
| fungi | we test the things we can successfully test most of the time, and we don't test the things nobody is keeping testable | 16:42 |
| cdent | there's a sense to which much of the openstack development scene and process is in a tautological love affair with the gate | 16:43 |
| fungi | so the role of the tc here, as i see it, is to reflect what the community is testing and not hold them to task over an inability to test things that there is no support in the community to implement | 16:44 |
| cdent | I think we can go one step further than that: We can help to highlight the gaps between demands (from wherever) on the community, and the resources that the community has. | 16:45 |
| fungi | oh, sure, i agree | 16:45 |
| cdent | right now those resources (across the board) are rather terrifyingly low | 16:45 |
| cdent | We need to make it safe for people like PTLs to be able to say "that didn't happen because you didn't stump people" | 16:46 |
| cdent | that ought to be safe now, but i'm not sure we (the tc) provide enough informational air cover | 16:46 |
| cdent | biab | 16:47 |
| TheJulia | agree, which is in part why we've had to temporarily drop tests or mark things non-voting while we work to resolve the issues out of our direct control or influence as a project team or community. | 16:47 |
| fungi | i guess my point was that the distros list in the pti is not for beating teams over the head with and telling them they're bad for not supporting, but rather should serve as a living reflection of what is being actively tested | 16:51 |
| fungi | so if teams are continuously testing that openstack works on those platforms (for yet-to-be-defined "works"), then we list the platforms there. and if they aren't we remove those platforms from the list, not remove the teams who aren't getting that support from the distros in question | 16:52 |
| scas | i have a perspective on this, but i'm apt to go long-form on irc, which is, admittedly, not the best utilization of the medium | 16:54 |
| smcginnis | Feel free to start a ML thread. I think it's relevant for a wider audience. | 16:55 |
| scas | i tend to long-form email, too, which can be as misaligned :) | 16:57 |
| fungi | yes, this is ripe for discussion on the openstack-discuss ml | 16:57 |
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| TheJulia | Indeed | 16:59 |
| TheJulia | fungi: I guess ultimately your perception (which I agree with) forces it to kind of become a two step process no matter what is done. | 17:00 |
| fungi | a lot of the earlier push to standardize on devstack-gate is that teams who avoided it and tried to roll their own integration testsuite usually got things like change dependencies and cross-project testing wrong. we extracted all that logic and embedded it into zuul as of v3, so it's now a lot easier for projects to do integration testing with the tools of their choice | 17:02 |
| scas | in my testing, i tend to do a three-step process before anyone else sees it, but it doesn't catch all of the bugs | 17:02 |
| scas | there's only so much that fits within the defined bounds, and software is not any more resource-friendly | 17:04 |
| scas | i liken a lot of how i test to deploying devstack within context | 17:05 |
| scas | i think i need to spend some time in a text editor putting more detail around that, since it's relevant | 17:07 |
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| notmyname | ttx: for the "soft dependencies", which direction does that flow? eg swift and storlets. swift has zero need of storlets, hard or soft, but using storlets can enhance what you do with data stored in swift. in the same way, swift would have a "see-also" for qingling, cinder, glance, zun, sahara, etc. this is different that eg swift + barbican where swift doesn't require it but has functionality w | 17:28 |
| notmyname | here encryption secrets can be stored in barbican | 17:28 |
| notmyname | I'm fine with the former (makes things look better and exposes how thing could work together), but the latter is more technically precise when it comes to deployment dependencies | 17:29 |
| notmyname | which is the intent of the map? | 17:29 |
| ttx | notmyname: i think see-also is more informative than technical. "You may also be interested in..." | 17:30 |
| notmyname | ok, great. thanks | 17:31 |
| ttx | I think linking to storlets in that case makes a lot of sense | 17:31 |
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| notmyname | ttx: and these are service-level things to mention, right? eg I would not put liberasurecode, despite the fact it's managed under openstack governance as a separate project | 17:32 |
| ttx | right | 17:33 |
| * ttx runs | 17:34 | |
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| dhellmann | fungi : I wonder if we want to move the linux platform list down into the series-specific pages to make it easier for that to reflect changes over time as things come and go. | 18:52 |
| fungi | that's for sure an idea | 18:52 |
| dhellmann | we have version info there, anyway, irrc | 18:53 |
| dhellmann | tc-members: Alan has posted the dates for the board meetings for 2019, if you want to update your calendar: https://wiki.openstack.org/w/index.php?title=Governance/Foundation&diff=next&oldid=166796 | 19:00 |
| fungi | thanks for the heads-up, dhellmann!!! | 19:00 |
| lbragstad | nice - thanks dhellmann | 19:03 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add a note to chair duties about tracking board work https://review.openstack.org/626644 | 19:07 |
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