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| openstackgerrit | Adrian Turjak proposed openstack/governance master: Add Project Deletion goal for Train https://review.openstack.org/639010 | 05:08 |
|---|---|---|
| openstackgerrit | Adrian Turjak proposed openstack/governance master: Add Project Deletion goal for Train https://review.openstack.org/639010 | 05:11 |
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| cdent | good questions evrardjp | 09:48 |
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| openstackgerrit | Frode Nordahl proposed openstack/governance master: Add ``ceph-rbd-mirror`` charm and dependencies https://review.openstack.org/639068 | 11:21 |
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| mugsie | evrardjp / cdent : I feel like i am writing essays in univeristy again :P | 12:36 |
| cdent | mugsie: sadism is alive and well in openstack | 12:36 |
| mugsie | this has to be one of the more active campaigning seasons we have had in a while | 12:40 |
| * cdent blames himself | 12:42 | |
| cdent | sorry, let me fix | 12:42 |
| * cdent congratulates himself | 12:42 | |
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| cmurphy | imo it looks a little brutal, you all were so desperate for any candidates at all and now they're all being given the third degree for their generosity | 12:47 |
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| cmurphy | if i was running it would have taken me days to come up with thoughtful responses to all of these emails | 12:47 |
| cdent | hmmm, interesting point cmurphy | 12:49 |
| cdent | but I really do think that we need a vastly enhanced culture of _writing_ than we've previously had in openstack | 12:49 |
| cdent | and hopefully if you've thought hard enough about wanting to be on the TC, many of the questions are things you've already thought about? | 12:50 |
| cdent | If not, why not? | 12:50 |
| cdent | As in: if you're not able to relatively easily construct some answers to these questions, in writing, maybe you're not the right person for the job? | 12:50 |
| cdent | i'd personally prefer fewer members of the TC who are facile with writing (because that's the only reliable communication tool we have) | 12:51 |
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| cdent | (that is, a small TC overall) | 12:54 |
| dtantsur | fair point, even though it'll created a clear bias towards candidates who are native English speakers | 12:56 |
| dtantsur | (I considered applying this time, this is is one of the reasons I did not) | 12:56 |
| cdent | Yeah, I realized that after I just said that, and thought that it didn't align well with my response to asettle, so it's tricky | 12:57 |
| cmurphy | even as a native english speaker the amount of writing involved in this campaign period would intimidate me | 12:58 |
| cdent | But to be a bit more clear: being facile with writing isn't necessarily the same as being correct | 12:58 |
| dtantsur | not necessary indeed, but it's much easier to *show* that you're correct if you can do fancy writing without too much effort | 12:58 |
| cdent | true | 12:59 |
| * cdent considers | 12:59 | |
| dtantsur | it usually takes me several complete rewrites, a lot of time and some googletranslating to convey a non-trivial thought | 12:59 |
| evrardjp | that was definitely not my goal to intimidate | 13:01 |
| evrardjp | I found it by far more intimidating when the campaining happened IRL during PTG. | 13:01 |
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| dtantsur | evrardjp: for the record, I'm not blaming you or anyone. I more or less agree it's necessary. | 13:01 |
| dtantsur | oh, f2f compaining is even worse (incl. for the same reasons) | 13:02 |
| evrardjp | I would expect people to not answer anyway. But I like at least people to think about those, and it would be great to see an answer | 13:02 |
| evrardjp | I appreciate those who take the effort too | 13:03 |
| * dtantsur ponders having a repository with questions as part of openstack/election | 13:03 | |
| evrardjp | mmm | 13:03 |
| evrardjp | maybe I did wrong,maybe I should have asked those to answer personally... | 13:03 |
| evrardjp | I mean, not on the ML. | 13:03 |
| dtantsur | well, as a voter I like seeing the questions and the answers, so thanks you! | 13:04 |
| evrardjp | but I have the impression that could be useful for everyone | 13:04 |
| evrardjp | dtantsur: :D | 13:04 |
| cdent | I don't think having a repo is a good idea. we want the questions to reflect the time they are asked in | 13:04 |
| evrardjp | but cmurphy is right -- it is ... a lot. | 13:04 |
| dtantsur | just thinking that if we collected the questions and then the answers in openstack/election, it would be a tiny bit easier | 13:04 |
| cmurphy | i like that idea | 13:05 |
| dtantsur | cdent: new questions every election | 13:05 |
| cmurphy | it means when you decide to run you know what you're getting into | 13:05 |
| dtantsur | collect them 2 weeks before the application period, for example | 13:05 |
| evrardjp | dtantsur: so those questions would become a program? | 13:05 |
| cdent | The other thing to keep in mind, of course, is that people who have the time/energy to _ask_ the questions have a sort of first moves advantage | 13:05 |
| cdent | I guess a repo would help that | 13:05 |
| dtantsur | evrardjp: a part of a program, yes | 13:05 |
| cdent | on the other hand I fear that the more we formalize the process the less often people will want to participte | 13:05 |
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| cdent | and until we started the onslaught of questions and answers I was thinking the TC was mostly dead | 13:07 |
| dtantsur | this is hard to predict | 13:07 |
| evrardjp | I would probalby answer myself differently if it was stored in git as part of a 'program for running' | 13:07 |
| gmann | ML discussion looks more global and easy to read by large number of audience/voters | 13:09 |
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| cdent | it's a bit like a televised debate: the questions are asked the sake of being seen | 13:11 |
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| jroll | as a candidate, this edition of the campaigning period is brutal | 13:50 |
| jroll | :) | 13:51 |
| cdent | jroll: yeah, but I made you care, which == success | 13:51 |
| cdent | I can retire into my dotage satisfied | 13:52 |
| jroll | :P | 13:54 |
| openstackgerrit | Frode Nordahl proposed openstack/governance master: Add ``ceph-rbd-mirror`` charm and dependencies https://review.openstack.org/639068 | 13:55 |
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| dhellmann | tc-members: could we get a few more reviews on this patch from evrardjp to open up the stein goal selection process? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/638676/ | 14:44 |
| * cdent tries to speed up his network | 14:44 | |
| smcginnis | Turn the crank a few more times. | 14:46 |
| cdent | if only | 14:46 |
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| dhellmann | feed the pigeons? | 14:48 |
| cdent | I probalby need to feed pigeons less | 14:49 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Remove team fragility stats script https://review.openstack.org/636721 | 14:49 |
| cdent | as they may be to blame for the solar panels not performing | 14:49 |
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| fungi | for those who haven't seen it, here's the current state the osf project confirmation guidelines draft which the board will review next week: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Foundation/OSFProjectConfirmationGuidelines | 14:54 |
| fungi | cmurphy: i'm not even up for reelection yet and it's taking me days just to find sufficient time to read through those ml threads! i doubt i'll be done before elections start at the end of tomorrow | 14:55 |
| cmurphy | fungi: same! | 14:57 |
| fungi | at least maybe i can get through them before the end of the election week | 14:59 |
| fungi | as for committing questions and answers to a git repository, that sounds like a fair amount of additional process for little actual benefit. i'd rather we avoided heaping on new processes except when absolutely necessary, but maybe that's a future campaign platform if i decide to run for another term ;) | 15:01 |
| smcginnis | I could see maybe having a small set of standard questions that we would like included in any nominations. But beyond that, I agree it would be too much overhead. | 15:02 |
| fungi | we did try that in some elections a few years ago, if memory serves | 15:03 |
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| fungi | though i think it was back when a lot of this was still managed in wiki articles | 15:04 |
| fungi | effectively the election officials at the time thought it was their job to also come up with questions for the candidates and manage/curate the debate answers somehow | 15:04 |
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| fungi | but that turned out to be rather a lot of additional work | 15:05 |
| fungi | mainly the cutting and pasting to interleave everyone's answers to each question | 15:06 |
| fungi | and trying to effectively randomize the orders of those answers so as not to introduce any unintended bias | 15:06 |
| smcginnis | That sounds challenging. | 15:06 |
| fungi | after that we said just take an extra week to ask the candidates questions on the ml instead | 15:07 |
| gmann | dhellmann: fungi sent the legacy job migration plan. I am deadline it on April 1st, hope 1. that is enough time for projects to test and 2. not so late to achieve our goal to finish that before stein - http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-February/003129.html | 15:07 |
| fungi | and let the q&a process manage itself | 15:07 |
| fungi | gmann: and 3. that people don't think it a joke because of the choice of date ;) | 15:08 |
| gmann | fungi: heh :) i did not realize that. should choose other date | 15:08 |
| fungi | nah, i'm sure it's quite fine | 15:08 |
| fungi | though you should definitely anticipate a lot of pushback. there are quite a few projects whose representatives i've talked to from time to time about their legacy devstack-gate jobs and how they feel stuck because they don't have enough familiarity with whatever random pile of hook scripts and plugins they wound up strapping together years ago to begin to be able to unravel it for a rewrite, even if | 15:11 |
| fungi | they did understand enough of the job definition language to be able to accomplish that in a timely fashion | 15:11 |
| fungi | basically their integration tests are mountains of technical debt they feel incapable of tackling with their since dwindling maintainer base and loss of historical context for much of it | 15:12 |
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| dhellmann | hrm | 15:12 |
| fungi | though in my opinion, that's a good reason to just scrap those jobs. if you don't have anyone who knows what those jobs actually do and why, then they're a liability anyway | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | right, what would you even do if they failed? | 15:13 |
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| fungi | the answer to that usually turns out to be asking the infra/opendev and zuul maintainers to help you unravel what the job's doing, which isn't really a scalable solution either | 15:14 |
| fungi | i mean, i've personally shelved a bunch of knowledge about how that stuff used to work | 15:15 |
| fungi | so the longer this goes on the less able i am to be able to remember how to troubleshoot it either | 15:16 |
| fungi | this sort of came up late last week when tbarron was looking to get a patch merged to devstack-gate for some problem manila was running into, and at this point we've basically frozen the devstack-gate codebase along with the shared "legacy" job playbooks which use it | 15:17 |
| fungi | we also from time to time end up fielding questions about changing or extending the zuul-cloner shim, particularly from the tripleo team, who haven't been able to switch to using ansible variables in some jobs (i think mainly in third-party ci?) | 15:19 |
| dhellmann | oh, that came up in the release meeting last week with a question of whether we need to do a step in the process that involves changing devstack-gate to add info about new branches. | 15:20 |
| dhellmann | if there's a new way to do that, I'm not sure anyone else on the release team knows what it is | 15:20 |
| tbarron | it's like maintaining old monolithic spaghetti code | 15:20 |
| fungi | also to consider, it seems like a majority of the third-party ci operators out there are still running zuul 2.x deployments with jenkins and running devstack-gate | 15:20 |
| tbarron | you can tweak it to fix specific issues | 15:20 |
| * dhellmann prefers to write new monolithic spaghetti code | 15:21 | |
| tbarron | but migrating off is hard | 15:21 |
| tbarron | dhellmann: :) | 15:21 |
| tbarron | the jobs were written by contractors when netapp started up manila and they are gone and | 15:22 |
| tbarron | because manila integrates with devstack via a plugin | 15:22 |
| tbarron | there's a lot of hackery to undo | 15:22 |
| tbarron | we've converted some jobs but there's still a lot to do | 15:23 |
| fungi | dhellmann: on the branch matrix, check with the qa team. i think devstack may still use that one file from the devstack-gate repo but it needs to get moved somewhere else if it hasn't been already | 15:23 |
| dhellmann | gmann , fungi : thanks for working on that migration plan | 15:23 |
| dhellmann | fungi : ack. smcginnis, ttx, diablo_rojo_phon , evrardjp ^^ | 15:24 |
| fungi | pretty sure it was mostly gmann we have to thank for that plan | 15:24 |
| dhellmann | oh, the way he phrased it I thought you helped, maybe he was just pinging both of us :-) | 15:25 |
| gmann | np! :). I am working on base patches and will take projects side testing as much as i can. | 15:28 |
| fungi | yes, thank you gmann! | 15:28 |
| dhellmann | excellent, that's a lot of work so I really appreciate you digging in on it | 15:28 |
| gmann | fungi: dhellmann also grenade use devstack-gate file for defining the source/target repo | 15:29 |
| fungi | yes, and last i looked the effort to switch grenade to a non-legacy job had stalled several times | 15:29 |
| gmann | yeah, that is in progress. tosky is working on that. | 15:30 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Setup Release Goal Folder for Train https://review.openstack.org/638676 | 15:32 |
| dhellmann | fungi , gmann : it would help if you reviewed the release team process docs for RC1 week and work with smcginnis if any changes are needed: https://releases.openstack.org/reference/process.html#rc1-week | 15:32 |
| dhellmann | we try to keep that up to date so we know what to do at the end of a cycle, and it sounds like things have changed again | 15:32 |
| tbarron | just read gmann's email and fwiw manila has migrated even the legacy jobs to bionic except grenade jobs | 15:33 |
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| smcginnis | dhellmann: Maybe we just need to change that to state something like "work with the QA team to make sure any end of cycle devstack changes are ready" | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | perhaps. although having the actual steps written down somewhere would be good. maybe that part just needs to move to a qa repo? | 15:34 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, I do like having the actual steps written at least somewhere. | 15:34 |
| smcginnis | Just wonder if the release process might not be the best place for it. | 15:34 |
| dhellmann | the idea is to know what to do before we get to the point of having to do it, so we don't end up with a delay because we couldn't reach the 1 person who actually knows :-) | 15:34 |
| gmann | tbarron: cool. I will push grenade job to bionic and then you can test it. you are using grenade base job or derived one | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | yeah, like I said, maybe the qa team could own that part of the doc | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | in $pick-a-repo | 15:35 |
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| tbarron | gmann: manila grenade to bionic and py3 migration review depends on a grenade review that hasn't gone anywhere: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/630961/ | 15:36 |
| gmann | dhellmann: smcginnis agree. and in last release i noted some steps for QA team and that i can push in wiki. But i was waiting to make some central QA doc place | 15:36 |
| * dhellmann nods | 15:36 | |
| gmann | qa-specs is one candidate or just keep using wiki | 15:36 |
| dhellmann | whatever works is fine, as long as we keep it up to date | 15:36 |
| gmann | k | 15:37 |
| dhellmann | if it's not going to be in the repo with the code, maybe the releases repo stays a candidate for this set of instructions | 15:37 |
| dhellmann | and we started that document out as an unpublished text file, so you could consider that approach, too | 15:37 |
| tbarron | gmann: and here's the manila review that depends on it: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/630727/ | 15:37 |
| gmann | dhellmann: ohk, that can be good choice. | 15:38 |
| gmann | dhellmann: smcginnis for final-library-release-week-before-milestone-3, I am on step4 (as diablo_rojo_phon mentioned to me) and will push patch this week- https://releases.openstack.org/reference/process.html#final-library-release-week-before-milestone-3 | 15:39 |
| smcginnis | gmann: Great, thanks! | 15:40 |
| gmann | tbarron: thanks for link. please add the same in etherpad. meanwhile i will review your grenade patch | 15:41 |
| tbarron | gmann: ack and thanks | 15:42 |
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| tosky | it's OT here, but if anyone feels like it, you can start commenting the WIP native zuul v3 job for grenade and its dependencies (fixes fore devstack and grenade) | 16:11 |
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| smcginnis | Interesting - https://www.cncf.io/announcement/2019/02/25/cncf-launches-cloud-native-network-functions-cnf-testbed/ | 16:50 |
| cdent | fighting words! ;) "to showcase the performance improvements from avoiding virtualization overhead." | 16:51 |
| smcginnis | I would think telcos would still want to run their k8s clusters on top of an OpenStack cloud. I can't imagine any major telecom operator being OK routing their central business through AWS or GCE. | 16:53 |
| cdent | baremetal cloud, perhaps | 16:53 |
| * dtantsur raises his head | 16:54 | |
| * cdent sets bait, reels in | 16:54 | |
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| jroll | smcginnis: what about something like AWS outposts? | 17:59 |
| jroll | (on prem aws) | 17:59 |
| smcginnis | jroll: I wonder if that would be attractive for those kinds of folks or not. Not sure. | 18:00 |
| jroll | smcginnis: I would imagine so, but dunno | 18:00 |
| mugsie | if they a) actually ever appear, and b) allow people to decide what random fork of the kernel they want, set CPU pinning options like isolcpus and map PCIE devices into VMs, then maybe. | 18:06 |
| * mugsie is embittered by his time in telco cloud :) | 18:06 | |
| mugsie | but k8s on an ironic cloud seems like a good bet | 18:07 |
| cdent | mugsie: s/ by.*$// | 18:09 |
| mugsie | :) | 18:09 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: clarify the hand-off of chair responsibilities at election https://review.openstack.org/638845 | 19:11 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: mention using CIVS for chair election https://review.openstack.org/638846 | 19:14 |
| fungi | also that article once again seems to use "openstack" as a euphemism for "virtual machines" | 19:14 |
| fungi | running kubernetes on ironic _is_ running on openstack | 19:14 |
| zaneb | fungi: y-yes, but, there's a wide range of possibilities there, from full OpenStack cloud with Ironic for bare-metal-to-tenant up to standalone Ironic with no auth used purely as an abstraction layer for BMCs | 19:51 |
| zaneb | all of those scenarios are good for Ironic, but not all are a win for OpenStack as we envision it | 19:52 |
| fungi | sure, but to say that running something on ironic isn't running on openstack (which seems to be happening more and more these days) is certainly misleading | 19:54 |
| fungi | a number of popular container deployment models out there now seem to want to hide the fact that the underlying server management is in fact being performed by an openstack component | 19:56 |
| fungi | and instead say they're running "without openstack" when what they means is "not on virtual machines" | 19:56 |
| fungi | though for this particular article and the associated tooling they seem to want to prove that running kubernetes on terraform-managed resources is more performant than running kubernetes on openstack-nova-managed virtual machines | 19:58 |
| zaneb | I agree the whole OpenStack==VMs thing is irritating, but it was the OpenStack community itself that created that perception | 19:58 |
| jroll | fungi: which is an even stranger thing to prove, given that terraform supports nova :) | 20:02 |
| clarkb | fungi: fwiw its not kubernetes on virtual machines. It is network functions on VMs vs network functiosn on containers. It just happens that the containers option relies on a cloud existing to provision the instances that kubernetes runs on and they happen to use a baremetal cloud | 20:04 |
| clarkb | aka something that ironic could provide to you if you didn't move your telco backend into packet | 20:04 |
| fungi | er, right, running vnfs in containers on terraform vs running vnfs in virtual machines on openstack, i guess | 20:06 |
| fungi | but it could just as easily have been running vnfs in containers on openstack bare metal instances vs running vnfs on openstack in virtual machines instances | 20:08 |
| fungi | i agree | 20:08 |
| fungi | though if it had been, they wouldn't be as easily able to persist with the whole kubernets vs openstack cage match paradigm | 20:08 |
| smcginnis | Even running vnfs in containers in Nova VMs would be a more interesting proposition than the scenario they are doing. | 20:11 |
| clarkb | https://github.com/cncf/cnf-testbed/issues/186 is the scenario they are testing fwiw | 20:11 |
| clarkb | (I found that to be qutie informative) | 20:11 |
| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Stanley proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Go into more detail on procedural -2 https://review.openstack.org/639191 | 21:15 |
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| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Get rid of popularity discussion in PTI https://review.openstack.org/638045 | 21:24 |
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