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| smcginnis | Yes, really great candidates this time around. Thanks everyone who ran. | 00:09 |
|---|---|---|
| smcginnis | Also, thank you election officials for handling back to back elections. | 00:11 |
| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Stanley proposed openstack/governance master: Update TC members for Train cycle election results https://review.openstack.org/641171 | 00:21 |
| fungi | persia: diablo_rojo: tc-members: see ^ | 00:21 |
| zaneb | fungi: expires in April? | 00:23 |
| smcginnis | 2020 | 00:23 |
| fungi | would march be more appropriate? | 00:24 |
| zaneb | right, but that's >12 months from now | 00:24 |
| smcginnis | Or does the change now? | 00:24 |
| * fungi checks what the *new* bylaws expect | 00:24 | |
| zaneb | technically the bylaws now say we don't have to have another election for 16 months | 00:24 |
| smcginnis | I think that question came up before as to whether these were a set time of the year and it happened to fall around the summit, or whether they were tied to the actual cycles. | 00:25 |
| smcginnis | But the bylaws do give a little leeway there. | 00:25 |
| mugsie | fungi: should we remove the chair in this patch as well, or when we elect the next one? | 00:25 |
| zaneb | but terms expire whenever we have 2 more elections | 00:25 |
| zaneb | mugsie: traditionally we've removed it in this one I think | 00:25 |
| mugsie | Cool | 00:26 |
| fungi | "After January 1, 2019, the term for the members of the Technical Committee shall be approved by a majority of the Technical Committee (“Term”) and shall be published publicly before each Technical Committee election; if no such Term is published the Term will be twelve calendar months." | 00:26 |
| fungi | mugsie: did i fail to remove the chair? | 00:27 |
| smcginnis | So that's going forward. What did we say was the length of the term in April 2018? | 00:27 |
| mugsie | Nope, you removed it | 00:27 |
| fungi | okay, good, our instructions at https://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/election/tree/README.rst#n208 say to remove the chair and vice-chair in this patch | 00:28 |
| fungi | smcginnis: what do the terms before january 1 matter for the newly-elected? or is the question more academic in nature? | 00:28 |
| fungi | i guess i should reset the expirations on these to march 2020 instead of april | 00:29 |
| zaneb | arguably we published before the election that terms will end a certain number of weeks before the V summit, although we won't know until much later when that actually is | 00:31 |
| smcginnis | fungi: It matters if we want to have extra TC members for a month. | 00:31 |
| fungi | that's a fair point ;) | 00:32 |
| smcginnis | If the members elected last April were elected under a 12 month term, and the members elected now are started immediately, we have an overlap where technically the outgoing members are still active at the same time as the new members. | 00:32 |
| fungi | i mean, we can choose to replace them before their terms expire, or hold the next tc elections until october | 00:32 |
| zaneb | smcginnis: we were allowed to have a <12 month term under the previous bylaws | 00:33 |
| smcginnis | It was allowed, but did we declare what the terms were. | 00:33 |
| smcginnis | As an outgoing TC member, it doesn't matter to me if I'm done now or in 3-4 weeks. Just making sure we're following anything that was stated. | 00:34 |
| zaneb | longstanding practice has been that terms end at the election, and we _did_ publish the election schedule in advance | 00:34 |
| fungi | the previous bylaws don't strictly matter, i don't think? the current bylaws don't actually say anything about terms which started before this year, and the current bylaws also say that we have to decide on the term before those seats are elected, so there is a bit of a hole i suppose | 00:35 |
| fungi | but given that strict procedural interpretation of legal documents is nearly always wrong, what zaneb suggests is probably closer to the truth of the matter | 00:36 |
| fungi | acting consistent with our past behaviors is probably a suitable means of addressing transitional holes in the current bylaws | 00:38 |
| fungi | anyway, i *do* think, based on a rereading, that i need to switch the newly-elected seats to expire in march, so pushing that revision up now | 00:39 |
| fungi | basically if we wanted them to be expire in 13 months by default, we'd have needed to agree to that prior to the start of the election | 00:39 |
| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Stanley proposed openstack/governance master: Update TC members for Train cycle election results https://review.openstack.org/641171 | 00:40 |
| fungi | diablo_rojo: persia: tc-members: ^ switched to march | 00:40 |
| diablo_rojo | fungi, reviewing now | 00:43 |
| fungi | much obliged | 00:43 |
| fungi | on the one hand i understand the need to let candidates and voters know in advance of the election how long seats will be valid. on the other hand we don't plan our release and conference dates more than 12 months in advance so if we don't choose a term at least somewhat longer than the default our elections will slowly creep backward in the year each time | 00:47 |
| gmann | Congratulation ttx, asettle, mnaser, zaneb, jroll, mugsie and Rico Lin :) | 00:54 |
| gmann | I think this is first time we have 1 month overlap between old members remaining term and new members start date | 00:57 |
| fungi | back when we did weekly meetings their terms took effect (and the outgoing members terms ended) at the next week's meeting | 00:59 |
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| zaneb | incidentally, do we have a meeting on Thursday? | 01:01 |
| gmann | btw TC office hour time... | 01:01 |
| fungi | i think the expirations we list are more as a reminder | 01:01 |
| gmann | zaneb: i think so but have not seen agenda on ML yet from dhellmann - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 01:02 |
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| jbryce | if the tc did not vote on and publish a term for these elections, then the term defaults to 12 months. one thing we did discuss is the term does not have to be a specific calendar date and could be tied to an upcoming event such as saying "4 weeks prior to the T release" or something similar | 01:13 |
| jbryce | in terms of overlap, i don't know that there's a way to have that since the tc charter explicitly says the tc has 13 members. so existing members need to be replace with new members rather than overlapping and creating a 19-member body | 01:15 |
| fungi | yep, that's what we've done in the past | 01:15 |
| jbryce | the bylaws don't require the term to start immediately after the election, the defaulted 12-month term for this election could start in a month since the tc charter does specify a "one-year term" for those existing seats that were elected previously | 01:17 |
| fungi | while we don't state it explicieffectively the sitting members (those returning/outgoing as well as the ones not up for reelection) did vote to update the governance site wto reflect the election results, ending the terms of the departing members in advance of the previously-set expirations so that the incoming members could be seated | 01:19 |
| fungi | wow only some of those typos were mine, i blame the rest on network lag | 01:20 |
| fungi | anyway, if it's decided we should keep the departing members on until the april expirations, i can update the governance change before it merges to make the elected seats expire in april 2020 | 01:21 |
| jbryce | i think the only thing that the bylaws deal with that applies here is term length for the election that just happened. it sounds like that defaulted to 12 months? everything else has a chain of authority that flows from the tc charter so can probably be resolved pretty easily | 01:24 |
| zaneb | all of the outgoing members stepped down voluntarily, so unless one of them asks to remain seated until April let's just carry on living our lives | 01:25 |
| fungi | yeah, i'm good with that | 01:26 |
| gmann | make sense. lets get their vote on current patch if any objection | 01:28 |
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| zaneb | btw since it's office hours, I assume everyone saw this tyre fire, but not everyone is on twitter so idk: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19291706 | 01:35 |
| fungi | i hadn't seen that, thanks | 01:39 |
| zaneb | fungi: you won't be thanking me in a minute ;) | 01:41 |
| gmann | few of the comment for older release like 2013 | 01:44 |
| gmann | for these kind of question/feedback/impression, should we start something to publish the success use case story so that people knows where it is running successfully and for what all use case. | 01:47 |
| dims | zaneb : haters gonna hate | 01:47 |
| dims | i can see all the stuff repeating in k8s ... one by one | 01:49 |
| clarkb | dims fwiw that seemed to be aevas warning | 01:51 |
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| fungi | yeah, zaneb is right about it being a tire fire. echo chamber as well. people having a good experience using openstack likely have little incentive (and more sense than) to wade into that puddle of sharks | 02:03 |
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| bauzas | fungi: diablo_rojo: thanks ! not sure I'll be running again in the next 6 months tho ;) | 07:54 |
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| bauzas | that will depend on what becomes OSP with IBM :) | 07:54 |
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| asettle | Thanks gmann | 09:07 |
| ttx | asettle ricolin: congrats and welcome! | 09:22 |
| ttx | bauzas: that was close... | 09:22 |
| asettle | ttx, thank you :) | 09:22 |
| bauzas | no worries, I'm not sad | 09:22 |
| asettle | Although I should make you aware, ttx - I told my mum I was voted in (and she didn't quite get it) and now she sees you as my competition to beat next time :D | 09:23 |
| ttx | asettle: I'll likely not run again (unless we have a dramatic shortage of candidates) | 09:23 |
| asettle | D: | 09:23 |
| asettle | Well that put a spanner in her coup plans | 09:24 |
| ttx | I was tricked into running again against my plans by low candidacy numbers this time | 09:24 |
| zhipeng | Do we have a final stats now ? | 09:25 |
| ttx | and in the end there were enough excellent candidates, so i could just not have ran | 09:25 |
| ttx | zhipeng: https://civs.cs.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/results.pl?id=E_6c71f84caff2b37c | 09:25 |
| zhipeng | thx ttx | 09:25 |
| ttx | 279/1390 is just above 20% participation, which is par for the course | 09:25 |
| asettle | ttx, understand | 09:26 |
| ttx | So I'll play the historian role for one more year :) | 09:26 |
| asettle | Always appreciated. | 09:27 |
| bauzas | ttx: just a question, is the TC/board meeting open for anyone ? I was tempted to attend it | 09:37 |
| ttx | yes, it's very public | 09:39 |
| bauzas | cool | 09:39 |
| bauzas | that's on the Sunday afternoon, right? | 09:39 |
| ttx | There sometimes are room size limitations, but I don't think we ever had to reject people | 09:39 |
| ttx | also in some venues they ask you to register | 09:39 |
| ttx | It generally is Sunday afternoon yes | 09:40 |
| ttx | At least on one occasion it was the whole day | 09:40 |
| ttx | Also it's a Board+TC+UC meeting, and lately it included other pilot projects leadership reps | 09:41 |
| bauzas | ttx: okay, sorry I was on meeting | 10:10 |
| bauzas | but thanks for the details | 10:11 |
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| ricolin | ttx thanks! | 10:43 |
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| evrardjp | ty to all the TC candidates, and congrats to the new and returning members of the TC. | 11:14 |
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| asettle | Thanks evrardjp :) | 11:28 |
| mugsie | yeah, welcome to the new members, and welcome back to returning people :) | 11:33 |
| evrardjp | :) | 11:33 |
| mugsie | and well done on the campaign to the people who missed out this cycle - it was one of the more intense campaigns I have seen for TC | 11:33 |
| cdent | asettle: you crushed it | 11:37 |
| asettle | cdent, a shock to me, if anyone | 11:38 |
| cdent | I'd go with MANDATE | 11:38 |
| cdent | and then proceed to change everything :) | 11:39 |
| asettle | I mean, last time I held a position in OpenStack that's exactly what I did so | 11:39 |
| asettle | EVERYONE WATCH YO SELVES | 11:39 |
| asettle | :p | 11:39 |
| cdent | \o/ | 11:40 |
| asettle | o// | 11:40 |
| mugsie | asettle: all hail our new (benevolent?) leader! :P | 11:41 |
| asettle | mugsie, benevolent dictatorship :) | 11:42 |
| mugsie | but - cdent and asettle - this is not a time for any brexit style shenangens :P | 11:42 |
| asettle | o.0 oh yo don't | 11:42 |
| jroll | heh | 12:14 |
| jroll | congrats to all of our new members, and thanks to the ones leaving :) | 12:14 |
| * cdent will linger like a bad smell | 12:20 | |
| asettle | cdent, that's nice | 12:20 |
| cdent | diablo_rojo: your ptl starting gun message still uses the phrase "Program Team Leads" | 12:21 |
| cdent | Does anyone recall if we resolved that placement ptl elections will farm nova committers for eligible voters? It was discussed but I don't remember the outcome. | 12:32 |
| jroll | I don't remember that discussion, but that makes sense to me | 12:39 |
| asettle | Ditto. They would be the best placed to vote | 12:40 |
| cdent | assuming a vote is needed. of late ptl elections are rare | 12:41 |
| mugsie | unless we want to parse out candidates from the new repo | 12:41 |
| mugsie | but nova atcs is as good a list as any, based on the provenance of the code | 12:42 |
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| dhellmann | we should look for melwitt's email summary of the agreement | 13:12 |
| dhellmann | if the election officials need to do something special, we should make sure they have | 13:12 |
| dhellmann | fungi , diablo_rojo , tonyb : so, what's the story with tc terms and the transition? | 13:13 |
| dhellmann | are we approving the new slate now with a term of March? or waiting for April until the current term expires? | 13:14 |
| cdent | dhellmann: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2018-September/134541.html (next to last paragraph) | 13:17 |
| dhellmann | cdent : ok, so it sounds like nothing special is needed, because the tools should look at the placement repo already | 13:18 |
| cdent | I had remembered it as "placement repo and nova repo" (so that people in nova now, without placement commits got a vote). but guess now | 13:20 |
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| bauzas | cdent: from what I recall, I think we agreed on the placement repo commits only | 13:31 |
| bauzas | given those are coming from nova | 13:31 |
| cdent | bauzas: yeah, that's what the linked message says | 13:31 |
| bauzas | and tbh I think it's fair | 13:32 |
| bauzas | i don't see why nova contributors on, say libvirt, should chime in for the election if they didn't had to interact with Placement | 13:32 |
| bauzas | but worth asking melwitt to clarify | 13:33 |
| cdent | the email message is clear | 13:33 |
| bauzas | then it's a no-brainer | 13:33 |
| cdent | yes | 13:33 |
| bauzas | cool then | 13:33 |
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| jroll | zaneb: I'm currently enjoying the comment thread on that HN link where running k8s goes from "just a set of systemd services" to "20+ choices for a cluster networking implementation", "Debugging involves stitching together logs", and "Before you can use it effectively, you more or less have to learn to speak it’s language." | 13:58 |
| jroll | things really aren't all that different :) | 13:58 |
| cdent | that latter one was a huge thing for me a couple weeks ago | 13:59 |
| bauzas | seriously | 13:59 |
| jroll | yeah, it's very real | 13:59 |
| cdent | I had exactly the sort of reaction I have when I'm in a crowded foreign language speaking place | 13:59 |
| bauzas | running a distributed architecture isn't trivial | 13:59 |
| jroll | I don't think it's much different in openstack, but the words we use are more conventional | 13:59 |
| bauzas | whatever the distributed arch is | 13:59 |
| mugsie | yeah. using it when someone else sets it up is OK, as long os th eapp is set up to take advantage of it, but running it (or writing a distro) is a complete pain sometimes | 14:00 |
| bauzas | people are very happy to know some tool can run from zero to the infinity | 14:00 |
| jroll | (e.g. setting up neutron with networks, subnets, security groups, etc) | 14:00 |
| cdent | jroll: sure, but I don't use openstack, I only develop for it :D | 14:00 |
| bauzas | but it has a maintenance and operational cost | 14:00 |
| cdent | i have the same reaction whenever I try to actually use openstack | 14:00 |
| bauzas | that's the exact reason why I think a single standard can't fit all the needs | 14:01 |
| jroll | cdent: yep | 14:01 |
| bauzas | or other said, xkcd #972 | 14:01 |
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| dhellmann | zaneb : yes, we have a meeting tomorrow | 14:07 |
| zaneb | ok, cool | 14:07 |
| dhellmann | tc-members: sorry for the delay in getting out the agenda for tomorrow's meeting. I am working on that this morning. | 14:07 |
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| dhellmann | tc-members: here's that agenda: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-March/003531.html | 14:41 |
| cdent | thank dhellmann | 14:41 |
| dhellmann | and see also : http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-March/003528.html (especially asettle, jroll , ricolin ) | 14:42 |
| asettle | Gracias | 14:42 |
| * jroll puts a thumb up | 14:42 | |
| * zaneb will finally be able to attend again | 14:42 | |
| jroll | thanks for the ping | 14:42 |
| dhellmann | jroll, asettle, ricolin : please vote RC+1 on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/641171/ when you have a minute | 14:47 |
| dhellmann | sorry, RC is "Rollcall" | 14:47 |
| asettle | Sorry, dhellmann arguing with Thunderbird | 14:47 |
| * cdent sets down his RC +1 power and looks at it fondly | 14:47 | |
| smcginnis | Can they RC yet? | 14:47 |
| jroll | ooo fancy new button | 14:47 |
| cdent | smcginnis: yeah, you squeked in, I did not | 14:47 |
| asettle | Oh that's fun | 14:48 |
| asettle | New button | 14:48 |
| asettle | \o/ I sense the powah | 14:48 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : according to the process document I'm working from, they are on the TC as soon as the election is done | 14:48 |
| dhellmann | the voting on that patch is a formality | 14:48 |
| smcginnis | Just wondering about Gerrit ACL changes. | 14:48 |
| dhellmann | oh, yes, I just took care of that | 14:49 |
| dhellmann | I have also formally asked all of you to start selecting our next chair (http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-March/003528.html ) so go file your patch if you want to run | 14:50 |
| openstackgerrit | Mohammed Naser proposed openstack/governance master: Add Mohammed Naser nomination as chair https://review.openstack.org/641405 | 14:55 |
| ricolin | dhellmann, +1ed on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/641171/ | 15:00 |
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| dhellmann | ricolin : thanks | 15:18 |
| fungi | dhellmann: my take on the transition is that in the past the new members have taken their seats immediately following the election (or at the first tc meeting following the election back when we did weekly meetings) | 15:19 |
| dhellmann | that was my recollection, so I was surprised that there was any question | 15:19 |
| smcginnis | I only brought it up because we generally refer to the TC term as being a 12 month thing. | 15:20 |
| smcginnis | So just making sure we are being accurate and following anything we've stated for term lengths. | 15:20 |
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| gmann | dhellmann: thanks for agenda. | 15:55 |
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| fungi | smcginnis: dhellmann: if there's some question as to term lengths being terminated prior to their expiration, i think we could get by setting the expectation that departing members voting +1 roll call on the governance change proposed by the election officials to replace them is an acknowledgement they're stepping down "early" | 17:06 |
| fungi | or i guess code review +1 instead as they're removed prior to approving that change | 17:12 |
| smcginnis | fungi: Yeah, that's fine. I think we're all good. | 17:18 |
| cdent | ack | 17:22 |
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| dhellmann | fungi : I agree | 17:55 |
| lbragstad | dhellmann for tomorrow's community goal update - http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-March/003549.html | 18:11 |
| dhellmann | easy enough, thanks lbragstad | 18:11 |
| dhellmann | and evrardjp | 18:11 |
| lbragstad | yup | 18:11 |
| evrardjp | np | 18:12 |
| evrardjp | hard to type while cutting onions | 18:12 |
| fungi | i was trying to do precisely that yesterday | 18:13 |
| dhellmann | heh | 18:13 |
| fungi | can absolutely confirm | 18:13 |
| dhellmann | please, folks, don't mix knives and typing. your hands are your livelihood. | 18:13 |
| fungi | c'mon now, i've built my own one-handed chording keyboards from scratch, so i can spare one hand | 18:14 |
| cdent | a friend of mine is working with some people doing a project using "the onion architecture" | 18:14 |
| cdent | and he hates it | 18:14 |
| dhellmann | fungi : sure, but could you build a keyboard like that with 1 hand? | 18:14 |
| cdent | so he wants to do a lightning talk where someone just takes an onion to the lectern and chops it | 18:14 |
| fungi | dhellmann: hah, was just about to say that in retrospect, i did use both hands to build those keyboards... what if i need to repair one? | 18:15 |
| dhellmann | cdent : "layer upon layers and when you're don't it's just tears?" | 18:15 |
| dhellmann | fungi : right! plan ahead! | 18:15 |
| cdent | dhellmann: exactly | 18:15 |
| cdent | fungi: this reminds me. a) have you ever used a twiddler, b) have you used the most recent one (i had one in the late 90s and am considering another) | 18:16 |
| dhellmann | how long did it take you to learn to type with it? I've considered them in the past, but never actually tried to use one. | 18:17 |
| smcginnis | I would try one if they were cheaper. | 18:18 |
| fungi | cdent: i'm familiar with twiddler's design but have never used one | 18:18 |
| cdent | it was useful within a few days, but I never used it enough to get good at it to think of it as more than a novelty. I think these days I'd probably try harder | 18:18 |
| cdent | when I had it there was a typing tutor and a typing game that came with it, and that worked well | 18:19 |
| fungi | my chorders are all derived from the "spiffchorder" design, in turn based on steve mann's "septambic keyer" | 18:20 |
| fungi | i found the best way to train myself on it was to keep a printed chord chart on hand and just force myself to use it for normal everyday typing activities | 18:21 |
| dhellmann | the new one looks like a TV remote. I thought the old one had a strap to hold it onto your hand while you used it. Maybe I'm thinking of a different one, though. | 18:22 |
| cdent | it did and looked less dumb | 18:22 |
| * persia discovers that there is only one twiddler left in stock at any of the available retailers, and decides to wait for the next batch to be made to avoid depriving anyone | 18:22 | |
| persia | pity the new version only has 16 keys though. | 18:22 |
| cdent | I think the new one has a strap too, the pics don't make it clear | 18:22 |
| dhellmann | ah | 18:22 |
| persia | There are definitely replacement straps available for twiddler3 | 18:23 |
| fungi | with the spiffchorder, i was proficient but still painfully slow within a few days of occasional use (maybe an hour or two each day forcing myself to use it), and within a couple weeks i was typing maybe 20wpm so still nowhere near as fast as a normal keyboard but manageable. i can probably get up around 40wpm currently but i don't use it that often, mostly just on the treadmill (which i also don't use | 18:25 |
| fungi | nearly often enough, as my waistband can attest) | 18:25 |
| * dtroyer scans scrollback to discover this is, in fact, not a new twitter client | 18:25 | |
| fungi | yeah, i think we veered way off on a tangent after evrardjp tried to chop onions while typing | 18:26 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: automatically derive the release team PTL for delegating those changes https://review.openstack.org/641465 | 18:44 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add vote list to status report https://review.openstack.org/641466 | 18:44 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add vote list to status report https://review.openstack.org/641466 | 18:48 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: show the owner of each patch in status report https://review.openstack.org/641468 | 18:48 |
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| fungi | cdent: as to why you were presented the rc vote option but couldn't apply it, this is because the gerrit ui is implemented as monolithic javascript your browser caches. if you did a force refresh of the change with the voting modal showing, you'd see it remove the option to set an rc vote now that you're no longer in a group granted that permission | 19:01 |
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| cdent_ | fungi: yeah, I figured that out eventually | 19:59 |
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| fungi | a shortcoming of the gerrit webui which may be solved in their newer polygerrit ui | 20:02 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add vote list to status report https://review.openstack.org/641466 | 20:24 |
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| mriedem | dtroyer: lbragstad: i took a gander at the osc goal https://review.openstack.org/#/c/639376/ | 21:09 |
| mriedem | it sounds like it's basically work on osc for glance/nova/cinder? | 21:09 |
| mriedem | or still too early to tell | 21:09 |
| lbragstad | mriedem i was just parsing those comments | 21:09 |
| lbragstad | appreciate the quick feebdack | 21:10 |
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| dtroyer | mriedem: I think it should be more than that…the point of goals (to me) is to get the community to a certain defined point (py3, etc) where some places need more work than others | 21:10 |
| mugsie | the bigger problem is that the glance team is very unlikely to get on board with this. | 21:11 |
| mugsie | even if someone else does the osc work, they are very likely to keep the glance cli | 21:11 |
| dtroyer | I thought leaving the things that are directly in the OSc repo was appropriate, everything else is in plugins | 21:11 |
| dtroyer | mugsie: I have never cared about projects keeping their CLI, they can do what they want. For those in the repo, we will do this | 21:12 |
| mugsie | oh, OK, on first read this read like we should be getting rid of it | 21:13 |
| mugsie | oh, that is in the goal | 21:13 |
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| dtroyer | it is written that way actually, I think that is Artem's slant | 21:13 |
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| smcginnis | It would be better without that. | 21:16 |
| smcginnis | Cinder in the past has said getting to parity is very good, but any discussions about deprecating cinderclient CLI would have to wait until after that point. | 21:16 |
| dtroyer | and we were >< this close to parity once upon a time… (tokyo-ish maybe?) and then lost it again :) | 21:17 |
| mriedem | sort of... | 21:18 |
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| mriedem | boot from volume with osc is still kind of a mess | 21:18 |
| mriedem | granted, the --block-device interface with nova boot makes me want to tear my eyes out | 21:19 |
| mugsie | right now it is nova/cinder/glance specific, with "everyone else do SDK development" | 21:19 |
| dtroyer | I said close, and meant cinder specifically | 21:19 |
| mriedem | ah | 21:20 |
| mriedem | from my pov for nova i'd like to just fill cli gaps in osc and hit a very low bar regarding api versions, i.e. mitaka or newton | 21:21 |
| mriedem | i think that is beneficial and achievable *for nova's users* | 21:21 |
| mriedem | but this won't be one size fits all | 21:22 |
| mugsie | yup, but I would hope that would be an aim for nova, regardless of this merging | 21:22 |
| dtroyer | mriedem: yeah, I agree that putting specific microversions in there isn't great. also, to say we supprt _all_ of them has never been in the OSC playbook | 21:22 |
| mriedem | mugsie: i would hope that too, but people want to add more features than actually make them usable in tooling | 21:23 |
| dtroyer | So keep in mind the idea in my view is to plant a couple of flags in the snow and wave at the community and say "come here" and sort out the details for each project to get there. no two will be the same | 21:23 |
| mriedem | dtroyer: yeah we wouldn't support all | 21:23 |
| mriedem | some don't make sense | 21:23 |
| * mugsie knows that dance | 21:23 | |
| dtroyer | a) cli parity, b) minimize use of python-*client libraries in favor of SDK, starting with glance and followed by swift (for those in the osc repo) | 21:24 |
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| fungi | challenge here is that we've gotten pushback on similar goals in the past because we couldn't reliably predict what work each project was going to need to accomplish the goal | 21:25 |
| lbragstad | the "pre-work" was meant to mitigate that uncertainty in a sense | 21:26 |
| fungi | i don't personally see how we can ever avoid that being the case with goals impacting dozens of projects designed and built in parallel by different groups of people | 21:26 |
| dtroyer | fungi: that is why this is honestly a bad candidate for this goal mechanism…and part of the reason I didn't push it earlier | 21:26 |
| clarkb | as a user I'll say that if I have to break out the other clients I basically give up at this point. osc's support for clouds.yaml configuration alone makes it the only client I bother with anymore | 21:27 |
| fungi | i don't know, i'm more inclined to say that it's not a problem with the goals or the champions, and that figuring out what each project will need done is at least in large part the responsibility of those projects | 21:27 |
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| fungi | if we identify a likely candidate cycle goal and provide the high-level target, and teams don't dig in and provide feedback suggesting that they don't know how to achieve it in their projects, then we can only reasonably assume they're okay with figuring it out as they go if it gets selected | 21:29 |
| dtroyer | fungi: in this case we are using the in-repo APIs as an example, plus have a couple of people already working in this area. but it still isn't a clean fit for how I've seen the goals designed in the past | 21:29 |
| fungi | i have to concur with clarkb though, if a feature isn't usable via the unified client then for me it may as well not exist | 21:33 |
| fungi | (my perspective as an openstack user) | 21:33 |
| fungi | i'm more inclined to find a workaround to whatever problem that feature would have solved then work out how to do it with a project-specific utility | 21:34 |
| dtroyer | clarkb, fungi: you guys apparently don't use any of the interesting new-ish swift features, that bit hasn't been updated in years. | 21:34 |
| fungi | s/then/than/ | 21:35 |
| fungi | dtroyer: at the moment we barely use swift at all | 21:35 |
| fungi | we're looking to start storing zuul job logs/artifacts and storyboard attachments in swift | 21:36 |
| fungi | but also that's features from an application development standpoint, not an interactive user standpoint | 21:36 |
| mugsie | zuul logs + aritfacts seems like an ideal use | 21:36 |
| * smcginnis wonders how the python3 support work is going in swift | 21:41 | |
| clarkb | smcginnis: they are working on it now | 21:41 |
| smcginnis | Not quite there yet. | 21:41 |
| clarkb | smcginnis: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/619303/ changes like that that tack on more testing as they port things | 21:45 |
| clarkb | looks like pretty decent progress actually | 21:45 |
| smcginnis | Oh good. | 21:45 |
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| notmyname | smcginnis: swiftclient is fine with py3 (and has been for a while). we've kept making py3 progress in swift itself. measured by unit test coverage, we've recently passed about 60%, and we're pretty close to running some func tests under py3 too. | 22:05 |
| notmyname | we're still targeting the "end of T" goal from a while back | 22:05 |
| notmyname | dtroyer: is osc using it's own swift client code, or is it importing (and old version of) python-swiftclient? | 22:11 |
| dtroyer | notmyname: It is based on the swiftclient code from before python-swiftclient was a thing. I re-worked the APIs a bit to fit what I was planning to use as a low-level SDK. | 22:13 |
| dtroyer | API=python API | 22:13 |
| notmyname | ya, ok. I remembered something like that. thanks :-) | 22:13 |
| mriedem | after today can i just close out the upgrade-checkers goal for stein? | 22:16 |
| mriedem | not sure what that all entails besides closing the story | 22:16 |
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| dhellmann | mriedem : I think as champion that's your call to make. It sounds to me like it's done-ish if not actually done | 22:20 |
| mriedem | there were like 4 projects with open changes but they've been that way for months, so i'm not holding my breath | 22:20 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I think telemetry is close to being shutdown so I wouldn't count on them | 22:21 |
| dhellmann | I'm certainly going to close out the python 3 goal work at the end of the cycle | 22:21 |
| mriedem | there just wasn't something in https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/#goal-champion-responsibilities saying "at the end of the release close out the story and any remaining tasks" or something | 22:21 |
| dhellmann | yeah, it seems we focused more on the start of the process than the end | 22:22 |
| mriedem | "and send an awesome summary to the ML recapping the adventure" | 22:22 |
| dhellmann | send your net promoter score survey to all participants | 22:22 |
| mriedem | heh | 22:22 |
| dhellmann | maybe you can work with lbragstad and evrardjp to clarify the wrap-up steps in that doc | 22:23 |
| mriedem | i was waiting for you to say that | 22:23 |
| dhellmann | I hope I didn't keep you waiting too long :-) | 22:23 |
| lbragstad | ++ | 22:24 |
| openstackgerrit | Matt Riedemann proposed openstack/governance master: Document goal closure https://review.openstack.org/641507 | 22:40 |
| mriedem | tada | 22:40 |
| fungi | you are a veritable wish-granting genie | 22:51 |
| mriedem | i have those same mc hammer pants on too | 22:51 |
| fungi | somehow this does not surprise me in the least | 22:52 |
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