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| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Add ':' separator for tag deliverables https://review.opendev.org/659792 | 13:53 |
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| asettle | dhellmann, fungi (and zaneb ) - sorry I missed the doc team/sig convo yesterday | 15:05 |
| asettle | I have to review the patch from Stephen again when I get a minute | 15:06 |
| asettle | But one thing I want to address | 15:06 |
| asettle | "<fungi> and if nobody has a vested interest in seeing it continue, then maybe it's not as important as we think it is" | 15:06 |
| asettle | I don't think there's ever a world for OpenStack where documentation is *not* as important as we think it is. If you feel comfortable learning and installing OpenStack without documentatino, you are one of the VERY few people in this world that can do so, I'm afraid :) | 15:06 |
| asettle | OpenStack is incredibly complex, and it needs documentation to support it | 15:07 |
| asettle | But no matter how much we push and tell people this, it doesn't appear to matter because the documentation (as far as the user is concerned) continues to ~magically~ appear | 15:07 |
| asettle | But that aside, team vs. sig | 15:07 |
| fungi | asettle: i'll admit, that comment was bait ;) | 15:08 |
| asettle | Ah, well baited fungi :D | 15:08 |
| asettle | Well, for me | 15:08 |
| asettle | I admit being particularly surprised that that sentiment was something you may have felt genuinely about | 15:09 |
| asettle | In summary, (and having now read dhellmann's clarification on 657142) - I agree with what he's saying | 15:09 |
| fungi | i too don't think it's possible, just wanted to demonstrate the implications. sort of a reductio ad absurdum | 15:09 |
| asettle | Changing openstack-manuals is tougher than flicking to a SIG | 15:09 |
| mugsie | yeah, the people with the vested interest in having docs are the people who are not ready to contribute. most distros don't have a vested interest in the upstream having good docs, as they can use good docs as a selling point, behind a paywall. (not all distros of course) | 15:10 |
| asettle | fungi, Yes of course. Makes sense. I mean, honestly? Some of the way we achieved the best documentation results (IE: moving the repos out) was literally giving people no option | 15:10 |
| asettle | You either took the docs, or you had no docs | 15:10 |
| asettle | I guess we can always try the whole "you, as a user/operator contribute, or you get nothing" vibe | 15:10 |
| asettle | It's not very positive but it's highly successful | 15:10 |
| asettle | A certain level of panic starts once the support teams realise they don't have their own base support. | 15:11 |
| asettle | But that's what we call, "abusive, manipulative behaviour" | 15:11 |
| asettle | :) | 15:11 |
| jroll | but the users/operators that need the docs cannot write the docs, and the people that no longer need the docs (because they understand everything they need to) have no incentive to write them | 15:11 |
| asettle | Ah! Not quite. Users and operators *can* write the docs. How do you think I do it? Base deployment/installation is written by developers at this point, right? So I can get something up and running | 15:12 |
| asettle | From there, I have the ability to walk through the processes and make edits and changes | 15:12 |
| asettle | There is no implication that a user or operator would be writing something from scratch | 15:12 |
| jroll | asettle: if the developers write the base deployment/installation docs, yes :) | 15:13 |
| jroll | fair point | 15:13 |
| zaneb | jroll: unless your memory is a lot better than mine, there's always an incentive to write down things you already understand | 15:14 |
| asettle | jroll, I think we have to look at it from the present, and presently... they are written. So we're in a decent point to encourage the users to contribute. | 15:14 |
| asettle | \o/ | 15:14 |
| jroll | zaneb: no incentive to do it upstream, I mean | 15:14 |
| jroll | I can't imagine any of my personal notes are fit for publication :) | 15:15 |
| jroll | asettle: yep, that makes sense | 15:15 |
| asettle | So! That's what I tried to work on hard with the RAX team. Your "personal notes" are often a HUGE help, but people think their notations are just trash. | 15:15 |
| fungi | consumers of documentation are far from the only folks who might have a vested interest in good upstream docs | 15:15 |
| zaneb | the incentive to do docs upstream is exactly the same as the incentive to do patches upstream | 15:15 |
| fungi | people who are writing the software might have an interest in it being well-documented so that it gains increased traction with a larger user base, or even just to reduce the volume of repetitive questions they find themselves answering | 15:16 |
| asettle | fungi, and that's an excellent poi ntoo | 15:20 |
| asettle | point * | 15:20 |
| asettle | Too* | 15:20 |
| asettle | Wow Fridayyy | 15:20 |
| fungi | but this was really less about who has a vested interest in documentation overall, and more specifically about who has a vested interest in the cycle-by-cycle tasks which need to be preformed in concert with release activity | 15:21 |
| asettle | I feel like we have solidified it within the community well-enough that developers are the ones to write the docs. I think that's fairly standard now. | 15:21 |
| asettle | The quality of it, that's different. | 15:21 |
| asettle | fungi, yes | 15:21 |
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