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| openstackgerrit | Takashi NATSUME proposed openstack/governance master: Add Geographic Region for M release https://review.opendev.org/667274 | 06:43 |
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| evrardjp | good morning | 06:58 |
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| gmann | morning | 07:08 |
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| asettle | o/ | 08:56 |
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| ricolin | asettle, o | 09:04 |
| ricolin | o/ | 09:04 |
| ricolin | tc-members please review https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/explain-team-formate-differentiate before I put the review patch up (also review it's graph too: https://imgur.com/FkrtN8s) | 09:07 |
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| ttx | ohai | 09:12 |
| ttx | ricolin: looking | 09:12 |
| ttx | ricolin: so I'd start with "project teams" and then explain that "mission-oriented" is for groups who have a mission that goes beyond the scope of one specific project team. | 09:16 |
| ttx | (because project teams also have a "mission", so starting with "mission-oriented" is a bit confusing | 09:16 |
| ttx | ) | 09:16 |
| ttx | ricolin: is it fine if I just move it ? | 09:21 |
| openstackgerrit | caoyuan proposed openstack/governance master: Replace git.openstack.org URLs with opendev.org URLs https://review.opendev.org/655010 | 09:31 |
| openstackgerrit | caoyuan proposed openstack/governance master: Replace git.openstack.org URLs with opendev.org URLs https://review.opendev.org/655010 | 09:32 |
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| openstackgerrit | Alexandra Settle proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Reviewing the PTL document for accessibility https://review.opendev.org/665699 | 10:19 |
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| asettle | Gracias, dhellmann | 10:27 |
| asettle | Reviewing now | 10:27 |
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| gmann | coreycb: i saw you are not adding/removing the py36 env from tox. if we have both version jobs IMO we should keep both version tox env for local testing - https://review.opendev.org/#/c/667094/1 | 11:52 |
| smcginnis | gmann: I responded on the patch, but I disagree with that. We should not make it a requirement that developers have both py36 and py37 installed and have to run both targets by default. | 12:04 |
| fungi | there's a tox config directive which says that | 12:09 |
| fungi | missing_okay=true or something like that | 12:09 |
| smcginnis | Yeah. A few repos have that set. | 12:09 |
| fungi | so that when you only have py37 installed and run tox with the default envlist, not having python3.6 installed doesn't report failure | 12:10 |
| fungi | though for my personal projects i just list py3 in my default envlist instead | 12:10 |
| smcginnis | But do we want to just skip all py3 tests if neither are installed? I think we should just make it a requirement that py37 is needed for local dev testing. | 12:10 |
| fungi | there are pros and cons to each option there | 12:11 |
| fungi | are we targeting devs who are going to run tests locally and don't realize they are missing an appropriate version of python, in order to prevent them from being surprised when the ci system rejects their patch for a problem with the relevant python version(s)? | 12:12 |
| smcginnis | Both will end up being tested anyway. I'd rather we not raise that bar even higher for someone new coming in and needing to figure out all these little expectations we've put on them. | 12:12 |
| fungi | got it, so better to list just one python version and tell everyone to make sure they (somehow) get that installed onto the operating system they're using even if their os doesn't provide that version (but provides another version we're also testing per the pti)? | 12:13 |
| smcginnis | That would be my preference. If py37 is our high water mark, then I'd like to just shoot for that. | 12:13 |
| fungi | and devs running centos/rhel 8 which comes with python3.6 will be faced with a confusing error which indicates they need to get python3.7 from somewhere | 12:14 |
| fungi | (i'm not disagreeing, just pointing out the down side to that choice) | 12:14 |
| smcginnis | Or Bionic, or.... | 12:15 |
| smcginnis | At least we can be consistent with a clear statement of "You need to install py37" rather than "you might have the right versions you need but you might not so check this and check that" ;) | 12:15 |
| fungi | well, bionic has packages for python 3.7 so that's at least easier to solve. i don't know whether rhel/centos 8 will have an easy way to get python3.7 installed without resorting to some separate environment management tooling | 12:15 |
| fungi | but sure, i can get behind that level of clarity if we're agreed that's what projects want | 12:16 |
| jroll | iirc it's pretty clear what's going on if the python version isn't installed | 12:17 |
| fungi | but at that point, why not say you need both 3.6 and 3.7 installed? | 12:17 |
| * jroll runs tox on a local env real quick | 12:17 | |
| smcginnis | fungi: I'm thinking wasted time. If it passes on py37, it more than likely will pass on py36. Can't really say the inverse. | 12:17 |
| fungi | that makes sense, sure | 12:18 |
| jroll | this is how the tox run ends if something is missing: http://paste.openstack.org/show/753356/ | 12:18 |
| jroll | that seems fairly clear to anyone who has a clue about python | 12:18 |
| fungi | sure | 12:18 |
| gmann | i am not clear why we are saying do not run py36 and py37 is enough and on other side gate test both version as mandatory | 12:18 |
| gmann | jroll: exactly | 12:19 |
| jroll | given how long some projects' unit tests take to run, I'd prefer to run *either* 3.6 or 3.7, but not both, locally | 12:19 |
| jroll | and trust the check jobs to find anything I missed | 12:19 |
| smcginnis | jroll: Exactly! | 12:19 |
| gmann | if i have both py version then 'tox' should run all of them for me if do not have any version then just it skip with error and proceed with next env | 12:19 |
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| smcginnis | They already barely have enough patience to run it once. Now if we make them run it twice, it's even less likely that local tests will be run and they'll just push up patches and leave it to zuul. | 12:21 |
| fungi | i think the point is that the ci system will run them both anyway, and the majority of problems for either will be caught by only running the newer one locally | 12:21 |
| gmann | in that case we can trust on jobs in all version. i find it useful when i need to debug the things which are failing on gate | 12:21 |
| smcginnis | If they really care about one or the other, then they can run that specific target. | 12:21 |
| fungi | yeah, keep in mind that the default envlist is only relevant for people who run `tox` without specifying any testenv names at all | 12:22 |
| gmann | sure but looking at the tox default env list it make the impression that "py36 is not in list do not supported? or not needed?" | 12:22 |
| gmann | yeah. | 12:22 |
| fungi | supported versions ought to be reflected in the trove classifiers | 12:23 |
| fungi | (in setup.cfg or wherever) | 12:24 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, if someone is looking at default targets in tox instead of setup.cfg to determine that, then there's going to be other issues with them. ;) | 12:24 |
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| gmann | true, i mean for local run. when we do not have py37 env 'tox' can run py36 instead otherwise it miss to test py3 . | 12:29 |
| gmann | as per goal doc also, proposal was to add the py37 in place of py34,py35. it does not say remove the py36 from default env list- https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/train/python3-updates.html | 12:30 |
| openstackgerrit | Iury Gregory Melo Ferreira proposed openstack/governance master: Add ironic-prometheus-exporter https://review.opendev.org/665414 | 12:31 |
| smcginnis | Well, we never had anything *add* py36 in the first place. | 12:32 |
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| asettle | tc-members - I know I'm the champ for the PDF goal but stephenfin and I are respectively away for the next coming weeks (me until the 17th of July, him until next week). Could someone please help us our and set up the storyboard? | 12:51 |
| coreycb | gmann: smcginnis i do like the idea of just having the latest py3x in the default tox targets. it's much friendlier for local tox runs. | 12:55 |
| asettle | I only ask due to rushing to get stuff done before I go on Thurs | 12:56 |
| coreycb | gmann: smcginnis: also, worth noting that the addition of py37 is a stretch goal. i've been interpreting that as having flexibility around it if a project wants. | 13:02 |
| gmann | coreycb: make sense. that's what i was typing. if any project want both then we can keep. personally i want to keep both env as default in tempest which is much helpful for me. | 13:04 |
| ricolin | ttx I still put project team as part of long-term mission scope, also feel free to rearrange things in graph if you like, I open the edit right to all now | 13:06 |
| ricolin | https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1tQkzFvfrUejQHbrxZavaC-9ma3_sowUXpy2TctzMuB4/edit | 13:06 |
| gmann | asettle: what exactly you need help ? creating the story dashboard and stories for each project ? | 13:06 |
| asettle | gmann, yes please | 13:06 |
| asettle | dhellmann, pointed me towards https://github.com/openstack/goal-tools | 13:06 |
| gmann | asettle: i have not used this tool but i can check. by when you want to setup this ? I am planing to setup the same for my goal by this weekend. | 13:11 |
| asettle | Honestly, whenever you can. I really appreciate the help gmann ! | 13:12 |
| asettle | I was naively floating along and not setting anything up for tracking | 13:13 |
| asettle | Like a derp | 13:13 |
| fungi | i do think guidance on and strategies around which testenvs projects should name in their tox default envlist is likely a larger discussion which we shouldn't let creep into the python testing goal (also probably an easier discussion to have with the community next year after python 2.7 is eol) | 13:13 |
| gmann | asettle: ok. I will set it up by this weekend. | 13:13 |
| asettle | You're the best! Thank you. I owe you one. | 13:14 |
| gmann | np! :) | 13:14 |
| gmann | fungi: +1. | 13:15 |
| gmann | in that case, we can add py37 env. not explicitly adding py36 if not present but not removing also if it exit ? | 13:16 |
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| fungi | i think it ought to be whatever's easiest on the goal champions, personally | 13:21 |
| fungi | and post-2.7 seems like a great opportunity to push some new standards around things like better standardization around tox.ini settings across projects, choice of bindep profiles in their bindep.txt files, trove classifiers in their setup.cfg and so on | 13:23 |
| fungi | focused on improving consistency and cross-project contributor experience | 13:24 |
| fungi | having one simple workflow which will consistently get you the ability to run unit tests for a vast majority of our python-based projects | 13:25 |
| smcginnis | asettle: Would doing something like this simplify the PDF generation issues? https://wkhtmltopdf.org/ | 13:32 |
| tosky | smcginnis: (sorry to jump in) it uses webkit, I wouldn't call it a simplification :) | 13:35 |
| tosky | for jumping in* | 13:35 |
| smcginnis | Haha, fair enough. :) | 13:35 |
| smcginnis | I don't have any experience with that tool, but just with some of the issues brought up on the ML I thought maybe there might be an alternative way to accomplish this. | 13:35 |
| tosky | the current toolchain (which I started checking for sahara) is still sphinx based (ok, and latex-based), I suspect it would be easier to fix stuff there then introducing a new toolchain | 13:36 |
| smcginnis | OK, I didn't dig in too much. I just saw that there were some formatting challenges with using latex, but that's likely still the better place to be putting efforts rather than adding more moving parts. Thanks tosky! | 13:37 |
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| asettle | smcginnis, literally what tosky said :D | 13:57 |
| fungi | also if we get to pdf by way of tex, we get print typesetting for free along the way | 14:05 |
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| asettle | fungi, two for the price of one! | 14:08 |
| asettle | I sense a budget TV commercial coming along | 14:08 |
| asettle | Can I get a set of steak knives with that? | 14:08 |
| fungi | it's a dessert topping! no it's a floor wax! | 14:08 |
| asettle | Hi, Billy Mays here... | 14:09 |
| asettle | Do you ever wake up tired in the morning? | 14:09 |
| fungi | i don't wake up in the morning. too much trouble | 14:18 |
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| openstackgerrit | Kevin Carter (cloudnull) proposed openstack/governance master: Remove tripleo-ansible-roles from governance https://review.opendev.org/667416 | 17:10 |
| openstackgerrit | Kevin Carter (cloudnull) proposed openstack/governance master: Remove tripleo-ansible-roles from governance https://review.opendev.org/667416 | 17:17 |
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| mnaser | so | 19:36 |
| mnaser | this is maybe getting technical but | 19:36 |
| mnaser | is a commit message considered part of governance? | 19:36 |
| mnaser | https://review.opendev.org/#/c/666974/1 -- the commit message here includes a lot of details regarding the spelling/etc | 19:36 |
| fungi | it's part of the content of the repository, but it's not an easily discoverable publication | 19:37 |
| mnaser | right, i wanted to ask more reviews from some of our chinese contributors across channels | 19:37 |
| fungi | might be a good idea to get that moved into the rst document then | 19:38 |
| mnaser | specifically because the change is quite simple in terms of repo change, but the commit really includes the *reviewable* stuff and decisions | 19:38 |
| mnaser | i.e. the accepted romanizations | 19:39 |
| smcginnis | I would assume that information is going to be captured somewhere else and this is just additional context to spread awareness. | 19:39 |
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| mnaser | right, i think that's a bit of an important detail in this context so it should ideally be either part of the change or we agree that when we're voting on it, we're voting on the 'rules' to be in the commit message | 19:40 |
| fungi | well, also the document is going to be translated... but the rationale being in the commit message means it won't be? | 19:41 |
| mnaser | right, these seem like details which we should capture (ideally) | 19:42 |
| mnaser | https://review.opendev.org/#/c/611511/ | 19:44 |
| mnaser | perhaps something like this? | 19:44 |
| fungi | perhaps, though not sure it needs to be a resolution | 19:47 |
| mnaser | to be honest, i just want to make sure that we aren't limiting choices without being aware of the cultural implications of doing that | 19:48 |
| mnaser | so: are we voting on it being from shanghai, or are we voting on that + the romanization/etc | 19:48 |
| * mnaser will review and send email to ML | 19:48 | |
| fungi | i think we're voting on the rationale presented in the commit message too, but i think having the rationale translated would help explain this choice to a broader interested cross-section of the community | 19:49 |
| mnaser | ++ | 19:49 |
| fungi | so embedding the rationale in the document may make sense | 19:51 |
| smcginnis | Haven't we always just included this stuff in the ML announcement when it went out in the past? | 19:51 |
| smcginnis | I don't recall things ever being formal needing TC voting on documenting our documented process of choosing a name from the locality of the Summit. | 19:52 |
| mnaser | smcginnis: well thats why i think the change is ok if it's just the commit change | 19:54 |
| mnaser | but the commit message has a lot of implication on why/where/what/how | 19:54 |
| fungi | yeah, i'm not clear on where/how the translation is being published anyway, so maybe it's fine to have whoever's doing the translation work also translate the commit message | 19:59 |
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