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| evrardjp | this was the initial proposal afaik :) | 05:58 |
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| openstackgerrit | Andreas Jaeger proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Remove broken link https://review.opendev.org/672933 | 09:40 |
| ttx | tc-members: quick reminder that we decided on July meeting that we'd do the August one on Thursday the 8th rather than Thursday the 1st. | 09:58 |
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| mnaser | tc-members: i feel this is somewhat relevant to us because cirros is a big part of our ci infra, but i've been trying to get a new release that has https://bugs.launchpad.net/cirros/+bug/1813319 fixed (with the long hard work of nowster to get to to build) with no success for 2 months | 12:34 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1813319 in CirrOS "Arm64 image requires a kernel and grub update to work" [Undecided,Fix released] | 12:34 |
| mnaser | what should we do about it? | 12:34 |
| jroll | have you emailed smoser directly? | 12:37 |
| jroll | and/or if he's still at canonical, do we have anyone there who can physically poke him? | 12:37 |
| jroll | if he isn't up for continuing maintenance, we could probably take it over | 12:38 |
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| * mnaser doesn't know | 12:52 | |
| mnaser | jroll: afaik though smoser was the one who approved the change | 12:53 |
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| jroll | mnaser: ah, you're right | 12:58 |
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| jroll | did anyone ask in #cirros? | 12:59 |
| jroll | ah, smoser isn't online | 13:00 |
| mnaser | i mean i've only been asking for 2 months :P | 13:06 |
| jroll | sorry, you asked for suggestions how to get this released, I don't know where or how you've been asking, other than comments in the bug | 13:07 |
| jroll | if you're really asking "can we replace cirros", just ask that instead | 13:07 |
| mnaser | i don't want us to replace cirros but i'm thinking if it's appropriate at this point that we take the repo, put it on opendev, setup ci there for it and publish our own releases of cirros | 13:09 |
| mnaser | i actually dont think there's a better alternative imho | 13:09 |
| jroll | personally, I'd have a conversation with scott about how we can work together better, or if he'd rather us take it over, or something else | 13:10 |
| jroll | rather than just fork it | 13:10 |
| mnaser | looks like scott is at cisco now, no longer at ubuntu | 13:13 |
| * mnaser will personally email | 13:13 | |
| jroll | oh interesting | 13:13 |
| mnaser | (since january, according to linkedin) | 13:13 |
| jroll | thanks for reaching out to him :) | 13:14 |
| mnaser | voila, sent | 13:18 |
| mnaser | i'll keep everyone updated on this | 13:19 |
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| fungi | thanks for the follow-up, mnaser | 13:39 |
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| openstackgerrit | Pete Birley proposed openstack/governance master: OSH: Add release management method https://review.opendev.org/673022 | 17:19 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Retire puppet-crane https://review.opendev.org/671271 | 17:34 |
| mnaser | https://blog.leafe.com/why-openstack-failed/ | 17:42 |
| mnaser | Some form of feedback, critical or not by a community member towards the TC. Take it as you want.. but good to consume anyways and keep in mind imho. | 17:43 |
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| fungi | thanks for highlighting | 18:10 |
| fungi | i still believe that the eventual success of a project depends more on the cohesiveness of its community than its technical superiority (because what good is technically superior software if nobody wants to maintain it), and so leadership taking perceptions and people's feelings into account is very important | 18:14 |
| fungi | even if it would sometimes be easier to just be an offensive ass | 18:14 |
| fungi | (and i say this as someone who is a bit antisocial and does indeed find it easier to offend and distance people, but tries very hard to not let that drive his decision-making) | 18:16 |
| smcginnis | I read that less as an issue with people's feelings and more to do with not letting those feeling prevent someone from actually making sure everyone is trying to build roughly the same thing. | 18:17 |
| smcginnis | I've seen a lot of people get along just fine, but actually had wildly different things in mind as to what it was they were working on or towards. | 18:17 |
| fungi | i concur, though think that's inevitable in a community of 2k+ developers | 18:18 |
| fungi | i definitely appreciate edleafe's feedback, and take is as a request to herd projects a little more forcefully | 18:18 |
| zaneb | I agree with him that a lack of leadership, including an inexplicable unwillingness by the TC to actually exercise leadership, has hurt OpenStack | 18:32 |
| zaneb | but it's difficult to believe that anybody in 2019 still thinks a BDFL is the solution | 18:32 |
| fungi | sabdfl still seems to think so | 18:32 |
| zaneb | fungi: how's that working out for him? | 18:33 |
| fungi | you'd have to ask him | 18:33 |
| zaneb | I'd rather not have to listen to him | 18:33 |
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| fungi | that's a fair point | 18:34 |
| zaneb | he might try to sell me a used car or something | 18:34 |
| fungi | (or a used phone) | 18:34 |
| fungi | it's also hard to know where the tc has failed to provide leadership. i think we've struck a fair balance between providing compass direction and letting the people doing software development also choose their own adventure | 18:35 |
| fungi | folks are always going to be displeased on both sides of that compromise | 18:35 |
| zaneb | I think all the fights over adding new projects and the big tent reform were a clear sign of disunity under the surface. instead of bringing that to a head and resolving it, we were content to allow people to just keep building in different directions | 18:41 |
| zaneb | it's hard not to see that as a failure of leadership | 18:41 |
| fungi | i see the options there as we could have told folks they were welcome to work on what they wanted as part of openstack, or to go away | 18:47 |
| fungi | we could have chosen to tell them to go away, and i'm willing to accept that may not have been as negative of an outcome as the tc was concerned it could be | 18:48 |
| mnaser | perphas thats more sustainable now (work on you want want) and before (when we had zillions of resources) it was better to be more setrict | 18:48 |
| zaneb | well, we finally ratified a vision document in 2018. can anyone dispute that it would have been better had we done that in 2013? | 18:55 |
| fungi | it would have been better if openstack had realized in 2010/2011 that it needed a "vision" in the first place, sure | 18:59 |
| zaneb | exactly | 19:00 |
| fungi | though i get the impression providing a vision isn't the sort of "telling people what to work on" that edleafe has in mind | 19:00 |
| fungi | certainly worth asking him | 19:02 |
| zaneb | I don't know if that's what he meant or not | 19:04 |
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| fungi | i honestly think most of the hindsight objections to lack of direction stem from the choice to provide "cloud" services when there was no clear definition of what that mean, no coherent set of requirements from users, and an awful lot of buzz leading to companies wanting to stake their claim and write those definitions. we were at the forefront of a phase shift in systems operation, and doing our best | 19:27 |
| fungi | to provide tools which could accelerate whatever folks were trying to do related to that. i actually think the indecision and experimentation were a good thing, and i don't think trying to tell users what they needed would have turned out well. but it's hard to know | 19:27 |
| fungi | it's at least somewhat easier now to look back and be more certain where things were headed, and what we *should* have steered projects towards | 19:28 |
| fungi | but the lack of a crystal ball was a hindrance | 19:29 |
| zaneb | there's a lot of truth in that. but there were two prominent proprietary examples to emulate, we failed to say which one we wanted to follow, and where we chose to go a different path we often failed to articulate the underlying reasons in ways that could help the whole community better understand the direction | 19:43 |
| fungi | i definitely agree with those observations | 19:56 |
| fungi | i'm also not sure we should have necessarily emulated either of the prominent examples, but yes explaining why we didn't would have been useful | 19:57 |
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