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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: Subsequent fixes in goal selection process changes https://review.opendev.org/677938 | 08:47 |
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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: Subsequent fixes in goal selection process changes https://review.opendev.org/677938 | 10:30 |
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| mnaser | as a contributor, i'd like to know what i can do about a project that pretty much doesn't care about doing reviews | 13:02 |
| mnaser | i see other patches pushed up and merged (by the cores amongst them), i see patches getting +2s from cores to folks in their org but the rest just sits idle, even trivial stuff, till it hits a merge conflict | 13:02 |
| mnaser | i have 2 month old patches i'm bumping and pushing, with many non cores giving +1s and cores just ignoring them | 13:03 |
| * mnaser is grown tired as a contributor and thinks this is bad | 13:03 | |
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| fungi | i expect we have plenty of proposed infra changes which have gone unacknowledged for longer than that | 13:06 |
| fungi | i don't feel good about it, but i also don't have a great answer | 13:06 |
| fungi | when there are more people proposing things than reviewing them, that has a tendency to happen. obviously adding more reviewers becomes a priority, or dividing the responsibilities into additional teams if the team size has exceeded their ability to effectively coordinate with each other on reviewing | 13:08 |
| mnaser | fungi: but the team is just 2 cores and they have refused to add more people for some reason | 13:11 |
| fungi | in that case, i wonder whether there are other dynamics at work | 13:12 |
| dhellmann | is this one of our teams? | 13:14 |
| asettle | mnaser, that seems odd. | 13:14 |
| mnaser | the magnum team is 5 cores, 3 are inactive, two are only active | 13:15 |
| jroll | did they give *any* reason for not adding more cores? | 13:15 |
| mnaser | i've asked that they add new people, gave them a list of some that seem to be active in reviews, "its a good idea" and they didn't do it | 13:15 |
| mnaser | i've been going on and on about this for a while, i still have trivial patches sitting for weeks/months | 13:15 |
| mnaser | and here's the thing that really pisses me off | 13:16 |
| mnaser | the default networking driver is flannel in magnum | 13:17 |
| mnaser | i tried to make the conformance tests work forever again (in flannel) and all my patches were pretty much ignored | 13:17 |
| mnaser | we lost conformance, and then when i complained last time, they "somehow" magically got it again | 13:17 |
| mnaser | the ptl ran it against a non-default configuration (using calico) -- the *NON DEFUALT* networking driver https://raw.githubusercontent.com/cncf/k8s-conformance/master/v1.13/openstack-magnum/e2e.log | 13:18 |
| mnaser | but also happens to be the one that the employer of the ptl runs by default | 13:18 |
| mnaser | which means all the current ptl has cared about is making sure their use cases arent broken, and the "default" network method is not even tested | 13:18 |
| mnaser | the worst part is that it wasn't even documented that they used another network driver (not flannel) in the conformance instructions: https://github.com/cncf/k8s-conformance/tree/master/v1.13/openstack-magnum | 13:19 |
| dhellmann | I don't see flwang here in channel | 13:19 |
| dhellmann | I expect that's related to timezones | 13:19 |
| mnaser | (warning, big file -- https://raw.githubusercontent.com/cncf/k8s-conformance/master/v1.13/openstack-magnum/e2e.log -- but you see the calico daemonset go up in the logs there) | 13:20 |
| dhellmann | if the magnum team isn't meeting the requirements set out for being part of the list of official project teams, then it's up to the TC to address that | 13:20 |
| dhellmann | I don't know that maintaining k8s conformance fits that, really, but the team management and reviewer list issue does | 13:21 |
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| dhellmann | the former seems like a symptom of the latter anyway | 13:21 |
| mnaser | to me it feels like "openstack first" is not being respected, it's more like "what works for me first" | 13:21 |
| mnaser | we all have to maintain and deal with stuff we don't run in openstack, but its open source and give-and-take | 13:22 |
| dhellmann | yeah, it seems like if there was more input from more reviewers that would naturally happen | 13:22 |
| dhellmann | we're about to have an election, so it seems like putting together a list of proposed ways to deal with that should happen soon so we can let the team know | 13:24 |
| fungi | right, the two ways of officially dealing with a problem like this are 1. get someone else to run for ptl against the current ptl, or 2. escalate the issue to the tc to decide whether the project remains part of openstack | 13:25 |
| mnaser | can you run as a ptl if you dont have a single commit in the project | 13:25 |
| fungi | not the way our current project governance is designed | 13:25 |
| fungi | optionally, someone can propose a fork of a project with a new team volunteering to maintain it, and the tc can both accept the new project and declare the old project no longer part of openstack, i guess | 13:26 |
| asettle | That seems... controversial. Has that happened before? | 13:26 |
| mnaser | https://www.stackalytics.com/?module=magnum-group&release=train&metric=commits | 13:27 |
| fungi | asettle: not really, no. but no two problems are alike and so their solutions usually aren't either | 13:27 |
| mnaser | i've managed to get 3 in, so i guess in that case | 13:27 |
| dhellmann | another way to deal with it would be to add people to the review team ourselves | 13:27 |
| mugsie | asettle: nearly (but it was the ptl of the project being forked that proposed the fork) | 13:27 |
| mnaser | tbh i suggested two candidates who were good (imho) and hogepodge seems to put some reviews lately too (i dont wnat to sign him up for work though, but he'd be excellent given his involvement inside k8s side of things) | 13:29 |
| asettle | fungi, good point | 13:29 |
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| mugsie | mnaser: me and evrardjp are the TC liasons, we could reach out initially (if you think that would help) | 13:29 |
| asettle | mnaser, I admittedly just put up a trivial patch myself. Now I'm like D: | 13:29 |
| asettle | mugsie, no harm in trying? That's what that function is designed to do | 13:29 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : I think telling the team they're under scrutiny is definitely called for | 13:30 |
| mugsie | OK, I will send an email to the PTL today | 13:30 |
| mnaser | *personally* i've hit a point where i'm writing a k8s deployment library and then use magnum's "plugin" system to use magnum (but with our own deployment tooling) to keep the api still there | 13:30 |
| mnaser | what sucks to me is that the 'new user' experience sucks and the default configs don't work, so we're going to be in a "openstack sucks" world if this continues imho | 13:30 |
| mnaser | also, this isn't the first time we reach out to them, i think fungi may have done that in the past? | 13:30 |
| mugsie | yeah, that defintitely sucks | 13:31 |
| mnaser | fyi someone reached out | 13:31 |
| fungi | ricolin did | 13:31 |
| dhellmann | "reaching out" is different from saying "we're about to fix this if you don't" | 13:31 |
| mnaser | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-July/008137.html | 13:32 |
| fungi | also hogepodge i think | 13:32 |
| mnaser | "everything is ok" | 13:32 |
| dhellmann | yes, then we need to explain that everything is not ok | 13:32 |
| fungi | i merely replied to their status update with a question about the kubernetes conformance situation | 13:32 |
| asettle | Out of curiosity, is the other core also based in New Zealand? | 13:33 |
| mnaser | its also still being deployed on an eol version of fedora (27) *and* fedora atomic is entirely disappearing | 13:33 |
| asettle | slash same company | 13:33 |
| mnaser | no, they're at cern so utc i guess | 13:33 |
| asettle | Just Feilong then? | 13:34 |
| mnaser | and 3 other inactive cores | 13:34 |
| asettle | Huh okay | 13:34 |
| mnaser | no reviews for months | 13:34 |
| asettle | I was just pondering if they were keeping it "in the family" so to speak | 13:34 |
| asettle | But nope | 13:34 |
| hogepodge | hi, I'm awake | 13:34 |
| mnaser | to me when i see https://review.opendev.org/#/q/project:openstack/magnum+is:open and look at the few little reviews done | 13:34 |
| mnaser | i see mine sit for months | 13:34 |
| mnaser | and then i see https://review.opendev.org/#/c/676690/ get a +2 within a few hours | 13:34 |
| mnaser | from a 'fellow co-worker' | 13:35 |
| asettle | Holy shit | 13:35 |
| hogepodge | I ran through a whole host of patches about a month ago to get an understanding of what was happening and try to prime myself for more contributions. | 13:35 |
| asettle | This goes back as far as Jan 2017 | 13:35 |
| fungi | dhellmann: i think the way we've established our governance places responsibility for things like choosing reviewers on the ptl. if the tc is going to make an end-run around a ptl's responsibilities then it is probably necessary to remove/replace the ptl (which is probably the same as removing/replacing the project itself) | 13:35 |
| mnaser | on a change that doesnt even have unit tests, granted, it's trivial, but c'mon | 13:35 |
| dhellmann | fungi : I could go along with that interpretation, if we had another PTL to put in place. | 13:35 |
| fungi | if the tc overrides a ptl's decisions, then it's basically already not recognizing them as ptl | 13:36 |
| mnaser | to go to an example how much reviews are not being looked at, the ptl has submitted patches that does the same fixes that i've done but have gone unreviewed lol | 13:36 |
| mnaser | i.e. in https://review.opendev.org/#/c/677581/ sitepackages is removed, which is exactly what i did in https://review.opendev.org/#/c/674474/ .. 3 weeks ago | 13:37 |
| mnaser | (and still is in the first 25 unmerged patches, so its not like its thrown deep in the trenches) | 13:37 |
| * mnaser is just trying to give examples so if i'm being over the top, please call me out | 13:37 | |
| mugsie | well, one is a bigger change, so I can understand why it is included there | 13:38 |
| mugsie | but yours is so small, it should have been merged quicker | 13:39 |
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| fungi | at any rate, i think bringing all this up on the mailing list is a good idea, even if it does seem confrontational, better to have it in the open than in the relative secret of an irc channel with only 74 people present | 13:40 |
| mugsie | (I am assuming https://review.opendev.org/#/c/677581/6 is only a test, and will be updated to not break the PTI) | 13:40 |
| fungi | but also, as was pointed out, elections are coming up, so if it can wait a couple more weeks that's an opportunity for a change in leadership without needing to take exceptional steps | 13:40 |
| hogepodge | asettle: yes, 184 open requests going back to January 2017 | 13:41 |
| mnaser | if you are elected as a ptl but you're not a core, i assume it would be perfectly ok to just be added into the core team? | 13:41 |
| jroll | yes | 13:42 |
| jroll | there's precedent for it (trove) | 13:42 |
| mugsie | well, core team servers at the PTLs discresson | 13:42 |
| fungi | if you are elected ptl you can replace the entire core review team | 13:42 |
| mugsie | serves* | 13:42 |
| fungi | anyway, i'd much rather see energy go into campaigning to establish different leadership following normal process than oust a ptl a few weeks before the end of their term | 13:43 |
| hogepodge | fungi: +1 to that, as someone who once woke up to an angry IRC thread it doesn't feel good, but I also understand mnaser's frustrations. This conversation is also on the record, and can be referenced. | 13:43 |
| mnaser | agreed | 13:43 |
| mnaser | given that i really care about magnum, i may run for ptl and try to improve all that situation then | 13:43 |
| fungi | yes, it's a discussion which is public record, but much harder for someone who isn't around to respond to and participate in | 13:44 |
| ricolin | In this case, I think it's also worth to encourage people doing more review and become a potential core candidate. Do see some possible candidates which we can encourage PTL to reach out | 13:44 |
| ricolin | https://www.stackalytics.com/report/contribution/magnum-group/180 | 13:44 |
| mugsie | ricolin: as mnaser said, that has been tried, and the team did not do anything with the names | 13:44 |
| fungi | ricolin: i agree, but mnaser said he did that | 13:44 |
| fungi | (months ago even) | 13:44 |
| mnaser | i sent a personal email which ill gladly forward, with 2 names that i thought might be good | 13:45 |
| mnaser | i got a "good idea" and no action | 13:45 |
| ricolin | mugsie, fungi it's alway nice to remind ptl again and again, during we try to find another solution here:) | 13:45 |
| zaneb | mugsie: maybe in your email point out bnemec's PTL tips and tricks etherpad from the summit? it sounds like they could benefit from some tooling like e.g. a gerrit dashboard to help keep on top of reviews and not duplicate fixes | 13:46 |
| fungi | absolutely. we should remind them through the mailing list | 13:46 |
| fungi | remind them that adding more reviewers is a "good idea" that is | 13:46 |
| fungi | it's already been observed that providing this feedback in private isn't having an effect, and we shouldn't be hiding our concerns from public view anyway | 13:47 |
| fungi | we are *open* stack after all | 13:47 |
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| ricolin | fungi, +1 on that | 13:47 |
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| asettle | mugsie, -I transferred ben's etherpad to the PTL document we have in governance :) that might be more "official" | 13:54 |
| asettle | https://docs.openstack.org/project-team-guide/ptl.html | 13:54 |
| asettle | https://docs.openstack.org/project-team-guide/ptl.html#tips-and-tricks <- specifically | 13:54 |
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| mugsie | asettle: ty | 14:00 |
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| zaneb | asettle: you are awesome | 14:18 |
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| asettle | zaneb, :D :D | 14:37 |
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| jroll | was going to mention this during office hours, but I suspect that will be all naming process discussion, so dumping it now: re large scale sig, verizon media would love to participate, but probably can't contribute any resources doing lots of work until early/mid next year :/ | 14:43 |
| jroll | too many spoons, not enough people | 14:43 |
| jroll | mnaser: ttx: ^ since you kickstarted that discussion | 14:44 |
| mnaser | that's cool | 14:44 |
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| mnaser | personally i'm happy to hear people say "i dont have time right now" | 14:44 |
| mnaser | means interest is there and they're just too busy, which is totally cool, rather have that than signing up but unable to keep up D: | 14:45 |
| jroll | I wish for irony's sake, that the reason was that we were too busy fighting scaling issues :P | 14:45 |
| jroll | yep | 14:45 |
| * jroll is a realist | 14:45 | |
| mnaser | speaking of naming | 14:45 |
| mnaser | another cool idea is uh based after chemical elements table | 14:46 |
| mnaser | i think thats how ODL does it | 14:46 |
| mnaser | "The naming convention for each OpenDaylight release follows the atomic number of elements in the periodic table, per the release calendar below." | 14:47 |
| mnaser | that would give us ~100 release names :P | 14:47 |
| jroll | hm, can we follow ICAO just for the W release? | 14:48 |
| mugsie | mnaser: that is how Azure does it as well | 14:48 |
| jroll | though I think whatever cycle dublin was should have been OpenStack Whisky, so maybe it's too late | 14:48 |
| mugsie | jroll: only if the summit is in Dublin or Edinburagh | 14:48 |
| jroll | ++ | 14:48 |
| mnaser | mugsie: i assume that happens internally | 14:48 |
| jroll | snowpocalypse cycle was definitely heavily influenced by whisky | 14:48 |
| mnaser | cause i tried to google a few combos of azure + $word | 14:48 |
| asettle | Snowpenstack gives me flashbacks | 14:49 |
| mugsie | we have some internal names, but they are public as well | 14:49 |
| * asettle makes side eyes at mugsie | 14:49 | |
| * mugsie plays innocent | 14:49 | |
| jroll | I almost feel like we need a condorcet poll for these options, heh | 14:55 |
| asettle | >.> | 14:56 |
| dhellmann | mugsie , jroll : they make some good whisky in kentucky, too | 14:59 |
| dhellmann | also japan :-) | 14:59 |
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| mnaser | it's office hours | 15:00 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 15:00 |
| ricolin | o/ | 15:00 |
| jroll | dhellmann: they only make whiskey in kentucky :P | 15:01 |
| jroll | but yes, would support a louisville summit for W :) | 15:01 |
| jroll | \o | 15:01 |
| ttx | jroll: yes "not right now" is a good answer | 15:01 |
| asettle | \o/ | 15:02 |
| fungi | jroll: irony would be if we needed to come up with a process for naming the available options ;) | 15:02 |
| mnaser | fungi: do you happen to know when the next rename is schedules | 15:02 |
| mnaser | scheduled | 15:02 |
| dhellmann | fungi , diablo_rojo_phon : where do we stand on starting the election process? | 15:02 |
| ttx | tc-members: please reply to http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-August/008649.html if you are interested in helping forum topic suggestions | 15:02 |
| ttx | We need two volunteers, ideally people not comint for reelection and not Foundation staff | 15:03 |
| fungi | mnaser: usually we discuss scheduling project rename outages in the weekly infra meeting to figure out when folks will be available to perform the maintenance | 15:03 |
| ttx | That leaves asettle mugsie jroll mnaser ricolin zaneb | 15:04 |
| jroll | I thought I already volunteered, guess I'll reply to the new thread | 15:04 |
| ttx | ISTR some of you volunteered already, so just reply to that thread saying so :) | 15:04 |
| ricolin | ttx I recall that I said I will do it during last meeting:) | 15:04 |
| mnaser | i believe mugsie was a maybe too :) | 15:04 |
| fungi | dhellmann: my plan for today is to mock up the pre-nomination-period announcement in an etherpad today, get some input from other election officials and send it out by my evening | 15:04 |
| asettle | ttx, dang. I'm not going. But I suppose I can help? From afar? | 15:04 |
| jroll | you can! | 15:04 |
| asettle | Ugh | 15:05 |
| mnaser | asettle: you dont have to be there to help :) | 15:05 |
| asettle | Hahahha | 15:05 |
| jroll | I'm not going either, but am helping with this | 15:05 |
| asettle | okay, I'll team up with jroll | 15:05 |
| asettle | BEST FRANDS 4 EVA | 15:05 |
| mnaser | fungi: sorry, just asked because https://review.opendev.org/#/c/669306/ has sat around for a little while | 15:05 |
| ttx | we just need two tho :) | 15:05 |
| fungi | dhellmann: at this point we're just needing to remind folks that nominations start next week | 15:05 |
| jroll | \o/ | 15:05 |
| asettle | ttx, am I the second or am I the third? | 15:05 |
| ttx | I saw jroll and ricolin's hands up before yours | 15:05 |
| dhellmann | fungi : ok, I'll watch for that email then, thanks | 15:06 |
| jroll | asettle: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/24/ae/51/24ae51a74dc129549d1c2b69b6415c1f.jpg | 15:06 |
| asettle | ttx, coolio | 15:06 |
| asettle | Consider me a back up dancer than | 15:06 |
| mnaser | first two to reply to mailing list win it :) | 15:06 |
| ttx | yes that is really what decides it, not me | 15:06 |
| fungi | mnaser: yeah, clarkb was expecting to need to batch up more renames after the opendev migration, but turns out there weren't many which didn't get taken care of in the first followup batch, so we just need to go ahead and do a single rename i guess | 15:06 |
| asettle | jroll, YES https://media1.giphy.com/media/KZfdN1ZrGf5FOZsFTO/giphy.gif | 15:06 |
| ttx | Or a mud fight | 15:06 |
| mnaser | fungi: great, thanks! :> | 15:06 |
| asettle | jroll, ricolin - responded. But I'm happy if either of you would prefer to do it | 15:08 |
| ttx | fungi: any idea when the next rename window will be ? We need kayobe in to include it in Train release process | 15:08 |
| ttx | and it's difficult to process as long as it's still at x/kayobe | 15:08 |
| ricolin | asettle, go ahead, I just like to make sure it's covered by any of us. :) | 15:09 |
| fungi | ttx: usually we discuss scheduling project rename outages in the weekly infra meeting to figure out when folks will be available to perform the maintenance | 15:09 |
| ttx | ok, so none planned at the moment? I can file a formal request during next week meeting | 15:10 |
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| evrardjp | wow quite a bit to catch up | 15:10 |
| fungi | ttx: yeah, if we get renames added as an item on the agenda by monday we'll remember to talk about it in the meeting | 15:11 |
| fungi | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 15:11 |
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| ttx | ok, let me add that | 15:12 |
| fungi | it looks like kayobe is several repos, so at present count we're up to 4 | 15:12 |
| fungi | 4 requested repo renames that is | 15:12 |
| ttx | fungi: I'll try to remember to attend -- if not you can explain as the RelMgt team's infra liaison | 15:14 |
| fungi | absolutely | 15:16 |
| mnaser | https://review.opendev.org/#/c/675788/ i'm inclined to abandon this change given that it seems no one is supporting this option | 15:17 |
| mugsie | mnaser: I would wait for this whole thing to work out, then mass abandon the unused ones | 15:18 |
| jroll | I think it's worth leaving them all until we agree on one | 15:18 |
| jroll | yeah | 15:18 |
| mnaser | fair enough :> | 15:18 |
| fungi | well, i was previously +1 on it but it's been rebased since i last voted | 15:18 |
| jroll | it's still early, most of the community probably hasn't even read them all yet | 15:18 |
| mnaser | regardless, i'm pretty happy about the fact that people are speaking up :) | 15:19 |
| jroll | ++ | 15:19 |
| mugsie | and it could take a few days to get everyone who wants to to join in | 15:19 |
| mugsie | life / work and all that | 15:19 |
| asettle | Totally | 15:19 |
| mnaser | ttx: just +w https://review.opendev.org/#/c/667932/4 -- thanks for your work on this :) | 15:20 |
| ttx | Re: naming I think two early decisions need to be made, before deciding on one option | 15:20 |
| ttx | (1) do we update the process doc to match the current process, before dumping it | 15:20 |
| ttx | (2) are we looking for a V-Z solution or a solution that can/should survive post-Z | 15:21 |
| ttx | Personally I'd rather choose now for post-Z and avoid this discussion again | 15:21 |
| asettle | ttx, in my discussion with corvus yesterday. I suggested that this current topic is to solve the problem for V-Z, allowing for discussion for post Z to appear. | 15:21 |
| asettle | There are suggestions to abandon the alphabet now and I think that's goin to result in an incredibly confused user base | 15:22 |
| asettle | And we need to seriously be considering them before our own squabbles | 15:22 |
| mugsie | I think 1 - yes. update the doc to reflect the current reality | 15:22 |
| asettle | IMHO, finishing Z is important. This conversation can generate further discussion. We don't have to have it "again" per say | 15:22 |
| zaneb | IMHO we don't need to wait for the outcome of this discussion before we merge the fixes to the current process that bring it in line with out actual practice | 15:23 |
| mugsie | 2 - lets worry about V-Z first, then post Z. | 15:23 |
| asettle | zaneb agreed | 15:23 |
| jroll | zaneb: +1, we should get your changes shipped | 15:23 |
| ttx | OK. I'm tempted by ICAO names, if we are only solving for V-Z | 15:23 |
| zaneb | after that we have two more issues: do we change before Z, and what do we change to after Z | 15:23 |
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| ttx | If we are looking for a V-postZ solution, then I like karge cities | 15:23 |
| mnaser | personally i think large cities makes more sense | 15:24 |
| asettle | That is the best one to set us up for post Z | 15:24 |
| mnaser | but karge ones are ok | 15:24 |
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| mnaser | i guess | 15:24 |
| mnaser | :> | 15:24 |
| ttx | karge cities are nice | 15:24 |
| zaneb | personally I don't think that the process is so broken that it needs to change before Z | 15:24 |
| asettle | They are | 15:24 |
| mugsie | zaneb: ++ | 15:24 |
| corvus | zaneb: we agree on that | 15:24 |
| asettle | I agree also. | 15:24 |
| zaneb | but I think this is down to a difference in governing philosophy | 15:24 |
| ttx | Hmm, not sure... V-Z is likely to trigger tension again, due to lack of lots of candidates | 15:25 |
| ttx | which means more exceptions | 15:25 |
| corvus | oh no | 15:25 |
| corvus | i misread zaneb's statement | 15:25 |
| ttx | which means more subjectivity | 15:25 |
| corvus | i very much think that the process is so broken that it needs to change before Z | 15:25 |
| asettle | corvus, okay cool cause we all just did a bit of this: https://media0.giphy.com/media/Ow59c0pwTPruU/source.gif | 15:25 |
| mnaser | im torn. i've seen other communities decide release names in advance for the next few cycles which makes life easy | 15:25 |
| ttx | corvus: I agree with you | 15:25 |
| mnaser | *but* that also means it puts us in a weird spot that you are a z contributor and you never got to pick the name | 15:26 |
| zaneb | for a long time the TC operated on the principle that all decisions should be 100% objective, and that any subjective content is bad and must be eliminated by hashing out all of the edge cases and documenting them beforehand so there can be no argument | 15:26 |
| ttx | I feel like if we don't change before Z, then we are back to "easy" letters again and then we can have the discussion when we hit K | 15:26 |
| asettle | mnaser, I think that point is moot at this stage. Also, I'm sorry, if you're upset that you didn't get to pick a release name I'm not entirely convinced your priorities are right | 15:26 |
| corvus | i strongly disagree that zaneb's changes actually bring the prcoss into alignment with practice. but if we can get on board with finding a way to change it before z, then we can set that aside. | 15:26 |
| asettle | It's a _release name_ not your first born | 15:26 |
| fungi | mnaser: well, also sticking with the current set of requirements makes it very hard to pick release names in advance because we don't know sometimes more than 6 months ahead where the conference will be held | 15:26 |
| fungi | (for example, no word yet on where the v conference will happen) | 15:27 |
| ttx | Also worth noting the naming process changed a few times already | 15:27 |
| ricolin | we definitely need to clarify what's TC's role in https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/release-naming.html and clarify the process like making words like 'the process should consider potential issues of trademark.' more official or simply just remove it out | 15:27 |
| mugsie | ttx: I think the issue with post Z is with letters as much as finding the names | 15:27 |
| ttx | It used to be me throwing names at a whiteboard with a dart as trhe last session of the design summit | 15:27 |
| ttx | then we thought it would be fun to turn it into a contest | 15:27 |
| asettle | ttx, ha! | 15:28 |
| fungi | ricolin: i always interpreted that as it was the osf's responsibility to consider trademark issues, and the tc didn't need to concern itself with those | 15:28 |
| zaneb | my personal philosophy is that we elected a bunch of intelligent people and me to the TC, and that we're quite capable of making a subjective decision in context on the merits (particularly of something like this). and if we consistently get it wrong then people will vote for someone else next time (maybe it will even increase TC election voter turnout ;) | 15:28 |
| ttx | It was fun, until a point | 15:28 |
| corvus | it's really not fun anymore. this process has been very traumatic for me. | 15:28 |
| ricolin | fungi, in that case, remove the words from reference doc might be a good idea:) | 15:28 |
| * mnaser is not on the tc to pick release names | 15:28 | |
| ttx | corvus: same here. I made the decision a while ago to no longer get involved | 15:29 |
| ttx | because I don;t really care, and some people apparently do | 15:29 |
| fungi | ricolin: well, they're in there because we need to make it apparent that the top name chosen by the community may still be rejected by the osf once trademark search is performed | 15:29 |
| ttx | I only care about a codename being given so that we can refer to it | 15:29 |
| ttx | and I think alpha names are easier to remember/use | 15:29 |
| ttx | I could care less how the name was selected, and the more inclusive the process was, the more pain it triggered | 15:30 |
| mnaser | i think as tc all we need to do is come up with some framework that given any letter input will result in a consistent name output. | 15:30 |
| ricolin | fungi, the words you just put in might be a better replacement if that's something all agree on | 15:30 |
| fungi | for point of reference, debian just lets the release team decide what each code name will be | 15:30 |
| fungi | and that seems to work fine for their rather large and diverse community | 15:31 |
| fungi | granted there is occasional rumbling over choice of names | 15:31 |
| ttx | fungi: that is what we started doing | 15:31 |
| ttx | arguably they operate from a narrow set of names too | 15:31 |
| fungi | and regular calls to just stop using names and switch to referring everything by release number | 15:31 |
| ttx | Also Debian is arguably more of a "thing" that can use numbers | 15:31 |
| ttx | Like you upgrade "Debian" | 15:32 |
| fungi | well, you upgrade "openstack" too | 15:32 |
| asettle | Sure, but it's always referenced by what you're upgrading to... | 15:32 |
| ttx | You routinely combine component versions though | 15:32 |
| asettle | And from | 15:32 |
| fungi | i still think referring to coordinated releases by their count would work, but i respect that most others participating in this conversation disagree | 15:32 |
| mugsie | but openstak v20 including nova v20, neutron v17, and trove v9 is very confusing | 15:32 |
| ttx | I.e. I run the Train version of Ironic and the Stein version of Nova (citation: CERN) | 15:32 |
| corvus | i'd like to find a solution for v-z that doesn't involve people from the community having bad experiences | 15:32 |
| corvus | without specifying which method, is that a goal that folks on the tc can get behind? | 15:33 |
| ttx | If I said I run Ironic 11.0.0 and Nova 22.0.1 you would have no idea I combined versions. | 15:33 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Separate goal definition from goal selection https://review.opendev.org/667932 | 15:33 |
| ttx | And if I said I run Ironic 11.0.0 from OpenStack 23 and Nova 23.0.0 from OpenStack 22, you would be VERY confused | 15:34 |
| fungi | i don't think i would be confused, but it sounds like others might | 15:34 |
| ttx | Which is why I'd rather stick to codenames | 15:34 |
| asettle | corvus, I don't think there's a debate whether or not we support finding a solution. | 15:34 |
| zaneb | ttx++ | 15:35 |
| ricolin | ttx +1 on that too | 15:35 |
| corvus | asettle: ok, there was some +1 to zaneb's earlier suggestion that it's not broken enough that we need to change the process before z | 15:35 |
| ttx | Pretty sure people can understand that we do an alpha cycle and that a>z sometimes | 15:36 |
| corvus | (which i mistakenly +1d, but actually -1) | 15:36 |
| asettle | corvus, sure. But since there is still objections, a solution needs to be found regardless. I think everyone could agree on that, whether or not they believe it's fine the wya it is. | 15:36 |
| corvus | if it's the case that there is no appetite for changing the process before z, then i will back out of this | 15:36 |
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| openstackgerrit | Graham Hayes proposed openstack/governance master: Require the TC to choose the release name https://review.opendev.org/678046 | 15:37 |
| corvus | because i really can't countenance being involved in the current system (or zaneb's proposed changes to it) at all again. i'm here to fix this for V. | 15:37 |
| * jroll wishes he could follow this conversation quickly enough to contribute | 15:37 | |
| ttx | My pet proposal would be to use ICAO names for V-Z, and then large(st) cities for the new round | 15:37 |
| corvus | ttx: both of those seem to be garnering enough +0 or +1 feedback to be feasible i think | 15:38 |
| corvus | it does look like (in early tallies) that numbers are right out. | 15:38 |
| ttx | and if we want one single solution, switch to large cities now. But given how few solutions there are around X, that would likely mean to find another solution in 13 years | 15:38 |
| asettle | Perhaps we need to stop talking about our personal preferences - it appears to be making it a bit confusing. We currently have reviews in place, an email out to the community. I think what the tc-members need to decide upon was ttx original question regarding if this is a solution for U-Z or if we should dive right in and decide what's happening post-Z? | 15:39 |
| ttx | asettle: I'm not sure of that. | 15:39 |
| asettle | Of? | 15:39 |
| ttx | It's a topic (naming) where everyone likes to have an opinion | 15:39 |
| mugsie | IMHO this current round of discussion is V->Z | 15:39 |
| ttx | It feels like one of those cases where we should actually use the power that is granted on us | 15:39 |
| asettle | Sure? Everyone's engaging in that opinion via the reviews, no? | 15:40 |
| ttx | because pushing it to the community is likely to create MORE dissatisfaction | 15:40 |
| ttx | Like "why not the ATC-named solution?? Do u hate contributors??" | 15:40 |
| ricolin | personally prefer votes than review since all opinions is already there for review, but I'm fine ether way | 15:41 |
| asettle | HAHA okay. I trust you on that. I'm just not seeing how in office hours we're going to solve for X | 15:41 |
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| ttx | If we said "given the trainwreck that U was, and in order to avoid other trainwrecks as we enter the sorry part of the alphabet, here is the new rule" I feel like that would be easier to accept than "let's have a 3-month debate on how releases should be named and then pick someone else's solution" | 15:42 |
| ttx | Deciding acknowledges that it is a personal preference exercise anyway | 15:42 |
| ttx | there is no "best option" imho, naming is not an engineering problem :) | 15:43 |
| asettle | ttx, that's a good point | 15:43 |
| ttx | And now you make me care about it again. Damn you! | 15:43 |
| asettle | I mean, I'm easy. Provided we have an idea of where we're going and we move on | 15:43 |
| ttx | I mean, come on, who can resist OpenStack Xray. | 15:44 |
| asettle | o.o | 15:46 |
| ricolin | ttx X-man might bit it!, just saying! | 15:46 |
| ttx | (that is the issue with deterministic systems, people end up judging the result rather than the system) | 15:47 |
| zaneb | I'm still trying to work out if the ATC proposal is satire | 15:47 |
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| asettle | HO I hadn't seen that one | 15:48 |
| ttx | Can't wait to use OpenStack Zane though | 15:48 |
| asettle | Hahahahahahahha | 15:48 |
| asettle | Shame we've gone past OpenStack Settle but I could have really got around that | 15:48 |
| zaneb | ttx: I can't imagine any circumstances in which I would consent to being nominated for that, and the prospect of releases being named after the most gigantic egotists in the community is frankly horrifying | 15:50 |
| ttx | My hubris is as large as anyone else's, but self-nominating myself for the C release to be named "OpenStack Carrez" sounds a bit too much | 15:50 |
| ttx | zaneb: lol | 15:50 |
| mnaser | i mean | 15:50 |
| mnaser | it's an idea | 15:50 |
| mnaser | i don't know why we have to make fun of it, but it's better than nothing :) | 15:50 |
| asettle | I understand Jeremy's reasoning behind it. I get his meaning. But I agree with Zane on this one. | 15:50 |
| zaneb | https://gph.is/2eEpqnx | 15:51 |
| asettle | zaneb, thats good drama | 15:51 |
| zaneb | speaking of which, did y'all see that new project proposal? | 15:51 |
| mnaser | i replied to openstack-admin and its interesting | 15:52 |
| zaneb | I meant to say, in unrelated news | 15:52 |
| jroll | I had a hard time replying, once I saw it puts its tentacles in every db, that's terrifying :) | 15:52 |
| asettle | zaneb, no? | 15:52 |
| asettle | Oh! | 15:52 |
| asettle | Yes I did | 15:52 |
| mnaser | jroll: i can kinda imagine the pain though | 15:52 |
| mnaser | our apis are slow | 15:52 |
| jroll | oh for sure | 15:52 |
| mnaser | so i understand why, but i also disagree | 15:52 |
| jroll | but imagine the pain of tracking every patch that touches the db model | 15:53 |
| jroll | or worse, the pain of your dashboard getting owned | 15:53 |
| mnaser | i am 100% in agreement with you :) i just think that exposes that our apis are slow if that's the best way to pull info quickly | 15:53 |
| mnaser | we need to improve those | 15:53 |
| jroll | yeah | 15:54 |
| ttx | zaneb: link? | 15:54 |
| jroll | the searchlight mention was on point | 15:54 |
| zaneb | ttx: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-August/008602.html | 15:55 |
| zaneb | jroll++ | 15:55 |
| ttx | zaneb: thx, somehow I missed it | 15:55 |
| ttx | zaneb: Looks like the 'I like my name on things' proposal is serious... there is now a ML thread about it | 15:56 |
| zaneb | I can't even | 15:57 |
| asettle | Yerp - he mentioned that in the review | 15:57 |
| zaneb | still could be satire | 15:58 |
| ttx | the cat is out of the bag. Now "choosing the release naming process" will replace "choosing the release name" as the frustration factory | 15:59 |
| corvus | i see no reason not to take it at face value. i may be being trolled, but i'll take that risk to treat suggestions with respect. | 15:59 |
| corvus | we did name a release "rocky". | 15:59 |
| asettle | And boy what a smooth one it was | 16:00 |
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| ricolin | IMO, I don't think the issue is to find a perfect solution, it's to find a rule and said if the concerns or conflict is happen, here's how this going to resolve and who holds the final decision. Otherwise, this will goes on forever | 16:07 |
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| mnaser | i agree with corvus. i don't think it's fair that we call it 'satire' | 16:39 |
| mnaser | it's a bit disrespectful for someone who's trying to come up with an idea, i don't care how much you disagree with it | 16:40 |
| mnaser | hard enough for the community to be involved in tc activity these days | 16:41 |
| mnaser | if we make fun of actual _attempts_ at being involved in the process, that's just disappointing out of us | 16:41 |
| mnaser | jeremy has/was seriously involved in the process of the release naming and sees to genuinely care, as he has expressed in past reviews and even in ML posts before we got to this stage | 16:41 |
| jroll | huh, I'm not sure I hate that proposal | 16:50 |
| fungi | non-ascii release names certainly would exercise some corner cases in our tooling | 16:52 |
| fungi | as well as an opportunity to teach users how to type characters which don't appear on their personal keyboards | 16:52 |
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| jeremyfreudberg | so, i sorta forgot that office hours were happening today, otherwise i totally would have attended | 17:06 |
| jeremyfreudberg | i'm not offended that some people perceived my proposal as satire | 17:06 |
| jeremyfreudberg | in any case i thought making such a proposal, one which would capture a certain spirit of 'the story of openstack', was important | 17:07 |
| jeremyfreudberg | i wouldn't want people to look back in couple years' time and wonder why nothing capturing said spirit was proposed | 17:08 |
| jeremyfreudberg | of course i do recognize certain flaws in my idea | 17:08 |
| fungi | jeremyfreudberg: it looks like a well-thought-out suggestion, thanks for putting it together! | 17:18 |
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| fungi | dhellmann: election season e-mail posted as http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-August/008679.html | 23:12 |
| cmurphy | fungi: i will be afk for the entire nomination period, will it be okay if i submit my self-nomination early? | 23:15 |
| fungi | cmurphy: absolutely! you'll be confirmed by the officials shortly after the nomination period opens | 23:20 |
| cmurphy | fungi: thanks! | 23:30 |
| fungi | thanks for asking! | 23:32 |
| fungi | cmurphy: note that the cycle name this time is "u" | 23:32 |
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