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| openstackgerrit | Nate Johnston proposed openstack/governance master: Name releases after cities with 100,000+ inhabitants https://review.opendev.org/687764 | 02:08 |
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| openstackgerrit | Nate Johnston proposed openstack/governance master: Name releases after cities with 100,000+ inhabitants https://review.opendev.org/687764 | 02:43 |
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| evrardjp | asettle: Happy birthday :) | 06:49 |
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| asettle | Thank you evrardjp :D | 08:59 |
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| ricolin | asettle, just add a new topic suggestion to meeting today `overall review for TC summit and PTG plans` | 10:07 |
| ricolin | but we can do it in office hours too if no time for it:) | 10:07 |
| asettle | ricolin, we really shouldn't be adding new items to the agenda now, as we need to publicise the meeting agenda so people have the opportunity to join. We can informally chat about it in office hours. | 10:17 |
| asettle | We'll make sure it's added to the agenda for next month, as we definitely need to talk abotu it before the summit and PTG | 10:17 |
| ricolin | asettle, understand, I guess we got to discuss about it in office hour because I think the meeting next month will be in person at Shanghai already：） | 10:19 |
| asettle | Oh christ it's October | 10:19 |
| asettle | I don't know why, I had it in my head it was September | 10:19 |
| asettle | Which is stupid | 10:19 |
| asettle | Anywya | 10:19 |
| asettle | ricolin, keep it in the agenda. Could you send a mail to the ML with the inclusion? | 10:20 |
| asettle | So people know and have time to make adjustments. | 10:20 |
| asettle | I'm sure there will also be discussions on the SUSE thing | 10:20 |
| ricolin | asettle, I like where your head are | 10:20 |
| asettle | ricolin, I LIKE YOURS | 10:20 |
| * ricolin just added the topic back after remove it in seconds ago | 10:21 | |
| ricolin | asettle, just to let you know that I already reply ML to let evrardjp know that there are two more topics were added to agenda earlier but that he didn't included in the Agenda ML | 10:26 |
| evrardjp | mmm can we do that ? | 10:27 |
| ricolin | do you think we will make those two as topic today? | 10:27 |
| evrardjp | I guess if it's on the ML it's fine... | 10:27 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, ^^^ | 10:27 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, will let you guys decide:) | 10:27 |
| ricolin | we can always discuss them in office hours too | 10:28 |
| asettle | ricolin, send it out as an addendum. I don't think it's exactly kosher, as evrardjp says, but it's good to talk about it while we have everyone | 10:29 |
| evrardjp | fine with asettle approach | 10:30 |
| ricolin | Let's discuss them after other topic are done or in office hours then:) | 10:32 |
| ricolin | Okay have to go , will be back for meeting | 10:33 |
| asettle | o/ | 10:59 |
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| openstackgerrit | Nate Johnston proposed openstack/governance master: Name releases after cities with 100,000+ inhabitants https://review.opendev.org/687764 | 11:21 |
| jroll | morning, happy birthday asettle :) | 11:55 |
| jroll | I like that on your own birthday, you still don't know what month it is :D | 11:55 |
| jroll | https://i.imgur.com/ZFr52NF.gif | 11:56 |
| evrardjp | jroll: that gif is... pricelessly amazing | 12:13 |
| jroll | :) | 12:13 |
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| asettle | Thansk jroll :D | 12:28 |
| asettle | and I nkowww | 12:28 |
| asettle | SUCH A GOOD GIF | 12:28 |
| jroll | hehe | 12:29 |
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| asettle | tc-members - reminder of team meeting in ~25 mintues | 13:34 |
| ttx | ack | 13:34 |
| njohnston | thanks asettle! | 13:34 |
| asettle | The agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 13:38 |
| ricolin | asettle, o/ | 13:39 |
| coreycb | hi all, i think this governance review is ready to merge if someone can help push it over the line: https://review.opendev.org/#/c/686253/ | 13:45 |
| jungleboyj | asettle: Thanks for the reminder birthday girl. :-) | 13:46 |
| asettle | YEAH BIRTHDAY \o/ | 13:47 |
| mnaser | chose to spend it with us | 13:47 |
| mnaser | :) | 13:47 |
| mugsie | "chose" | 13:47 |
| asettle | Aye, that ^ | 13:48 |
| asettle | :p | 13:48 |
| ricolin | coreycb, That patch reaches more than half TC votes and the depends on landed so approved:) | 13:50 |
| coreycb | ricolin: thanks so much! | 13:50 |
| jungleboyj | :-) Happy Birthday | 13:51 |
| ricolin | asettle, and this is you I assume! https://gph.is/18Bev0r | 13:51 |
| asettle | Pretty much | 13:52 |
| asettle | I love birthday's | 13:52 |
| ricolin | :) | 13:52 |
| asettle | As evrardjp is aware, I am very verbose about my own :p | 13:52 |
| jroll | are you celebrating for an entire week, as is tradition? | 13:54 |
| * asettle nods sagely | 13:54 | |
| asettle | Of course | 13:54 |
| jroll | \o/ | 13:55 |
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| asettle | I intend to ensure andymccr is in as much pain as humanly possible | 13:55 |
| asettle | Although he's pretty prepped. He gets me. | 13:55 |
| mugsie | asettle: ++ do | 13:55 |
| jroll | lol | 13:55 |
| asettle | Are we gonna take a selfie at 2am? Yes Andrew, we are. Get your ass here. | 13:55 |
| mugsie | will there be wine? you bet | 13:55 |
| asettle | ALWAYS | 13:56 |
| asettle | tc-members - 3 minutes, everyone go pee | 13:57 |
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| smcginnis | :D | 13:58 |
| asettle | That was mostly pointed at me, really | 13:58 |
| * jungleboyj is stuck on the walking desk. Can't escape. | 13:58 | |
| smcginnis | jungleboyj: They'd probably frown on it if you peed there. | 13:59 |
| jungleboyj | smcginnis: Uhm, yes. | 13:59 |
| asettle | #startmeeting tc | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Oct 10 14:00:05 2019 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is asettle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 14:00 |
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| asettle | #topic roll call | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "roll call (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:00 | |
| ricolin | o/ | 14:00 |
| asettle | o/ | 14:00 |
| jroll | \o | 14:00 |
| njohnston | o/ | 14:00 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: New charm and interface for placement split https://review.opendev.org/686253 | 14:00 |
| jungleboyj | o/ | 14:00 |
| asettle | tc-members - get your https://giphy.com/ ready | 14:00 |
| diablo_rojo | o/ | 14:00 |
| asettle | Allowing for 3 minutes grace for all to arrive. | 14:00 |
| dirk | o/ | 14:00 |
| asettle | Well, probs 2. We got shit to get through. | 14:00 |
| ttx | o/ | 14:00 |
| mnaser | o/ | 14:00 |
| asettle | tc-members - agenda incoming | 14:01 |
| asettle | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 14:01 |
| asettle | For all those that don't have it open already | 14:01 |
| asettle | Right | 14:02 |
| asettle | Let's kick it | 14:02 |
| asettle | Firstly, before we dive into the ageanda, going to address the elephant | 14:02 |
| asettle | Me rn: https://giphy.com/gifs/animation-reaction-halloween-d0QrBg3r8qL0Q | 14:02 |
| asettle | SUSE is no longer actively developing their OpenStack cloud offering | 14:02 |
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| jungleboyj | :-( | 14:02 |
| asettle | evrardjp, and myself are SUSE employees, but we stand by the community and will continue to work in this capacity | 14:02 |
| jungleboyj | asettle: evrardjp Thank you! | 14:03 |
| asettle | We will both continue to be employed by SUSE, but in new roles. More confirmation of what that means at a later date. | 14:03 |
| ricolin | hope it will not send any people away from community:( | 14:03 |
| * evrardjp lurks in the back | 14:03 | |
| asettle | SUSE employees are clearly still welcome in the community, and SUSE is still encouraging of their employees to stand by their open source values | 14:03 |
| asettle | We will see more and more what this looks like for the community once the dust settles. | 14:04 |
| asettle | Any questions before we move on? | 14:04 |
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| njohnston | Yes, I'm hoping that support for existing customers will mean that at least some staff that is OpenStack (and community) focused will be kept on that task | 14:04 |
| evrardjp | correct njohnston | 14:04 |
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| njohnston | No questions, just best wishes and good luck! | 14:04 |
| evrardjp | We still have an OpenStack team | 14:04 |
| asettle | Absolutely. No new development, but no abandonment either. | 14:04 |
| jungleboyj | njohnston: ++ | 14:04 |
| evrardjp | njohnston: and thank you | 14:04 |
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| asettle | https://giphy.com/gifs/animation-reaction-halloween-d0QrBg3r8qL0Q | 14:05 |
| * diablo_rojo cant remeber if either of you were going to be in Shanghai | 14:05 | |
| asettle | Okay, let's dive in to business as usual. | 14:05 |
| mnaser | asettle: won't but evrardjp will be afaik | 14:05 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, and did they freeze the openstack team size? | 14:05 |
| evrardjp | I will be | 14:05 |
| asettle | I definitely am not. Anymore long haul travel and I'll shoot myself. | 14:05 |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, okay got it :) | 14:05 |
| asettle | ricolin, yes. It's been reduced to a small number from EMEA and the US | 14:06 |
| diablo_rojo | asettle, I can understand the feeling, but I thankfully haven't gotten it before. | 14:06 |
| zaneb | o/ | 14:06 |
| asettle | zaneb, way to walk in late mate jeez | 14:06 |
| asettle | ;) | 14:06 |
| asettle | OKAY | 14:06 |
| asettle | #topic Follow up on past action items | 14:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Follow up on past action items (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:06 | |
| asettle | ricolin - Follow up with SIG chairs about guidelines | 14:07 |
| asettle | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/SIGs-guideline | 14:07 |
| ricolin | Still need to target ttx's comment to separate optional and necessary part. Plan to do it the following days. | 14:07 |
| ricolin | and possible one of topic for meta-sig in PTG I assume | 14:07 |
| asettle | #action ttx to provide feedback for ricolin regarding SIG chairs guidelines | 14:08 |
| asettle | Okay, thanks ricolin | 14:08 |
| ricolin | more feedback are welcome:) | 14:08 |
| asettle | ricolin, TC feedback? | 14:08 |
| ricolin | yeah include all TCs for sure | 14:08 |
| asettle | Thanks ricolin - tc-members please review the above doc if you haven't already | 14:09 |
| jungleboyj | Sounds good. Will take a look. | 14:09 |
| asettle | Moving swiftly onwards. | 14:09 |
| njohnston | ack | 14:09 |
| asettle | ttx - contact interested parties in a new 'large scale' sig (help with mnaser, jroll reaching out to verizon media) | 14:09 |
| ricolin | thanks jungleboyj njohnston | 14:09 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 14:09 |
| mnaser | i think that's largely been quiet, verizon mentioned it was a "not now" at teh time | 14:09 |
| ricolin | And we have a forum for large scale SIG | 14:09 |
| mnaser | and there is a scheduled (i think) forum session around this | 14:09 |
| mnaser | ^ | 14:09 |
| ricolin | #link https://www.openstack.org/summit/shanghai-2019/summit-schedule/events/24405/facilitating-running-openstack-at-scale-join-the-large-scale-sig | 14:10 |
| jroll | yep | 14:10 |
| asettle | mnaser, backlog item then or shall we bring this up again next month? | 14:10 |
| mnaser | i think we should follow up on this post summit aka next month | 14:10 |
| ricolin | I think we should plan to invite large scale user to join that Forum too (who might be new in community). Like Line, Blizzard, etc. | 14:10 |
| asettle | Something we can do at short notice? | 14:11 |
| ricolin | yes | 14:11 |
| mugsie | is there going to be people from those orgs at shanghi? | 14:11 |
| ricolin | that will be nice for large scale user I think? | 14:11 |
| mnaser | ^ that's the thing to know | 14:11 |
| asettle | ^ that | 14:11 |
| asettle | lol | 14:11 |
| ricolin | mugsie, yes | 14:11 |
| mugsie | I get the feeling not many tech people from them are going | 14:11 |
| asettle | ricolin, is that an action item you can take on? Figure out who is going, and who we can invite? | 14:12 |
| ricolin | yes | 14:12 |
| ricolin | asettle, make it a action, and I will make sure it's taking cared | 14:12 |
| asettle | #action ricolin to figure out who from the large scale user groups are going to Shanghai and invite them to forum | 14:12 |
| asettle | Thank you ricolin | 14:12 |
| asettle | Anything further on this topic? | 14:12 |
| mnaser | i think that's all | 14:13 |
| asettle | Fabulous. | 14:13 |
| asettle | Now, for the other most wonderful topic in the world | 14:13 |
| asettle | https://media.giphy.com/media/EckH9c8kzRLGg/giphy.gif | 14:13 |
| asettle | Release Naming - Results of the TC poll - Next action | 14:13 |
| diablo_rojo | Heh | 14:13 |
| jroll | oh boy | 14:13 |
| asettle | This is relatively vague, since it doesn't accompany an action item | 14:13 |
| asettle | Just another "let's do the thing" | 14:13 |
| jungleboyj | He he. | 14:13 |
| asettle | Whereas I think most of us would like to put our heads in the sand. | 14:13 |
| corvus | o/ | 14:13 |
| gmann | o/ | 14:13 |
| asettle | You say naming and corvus appears, it's like a fun trick | 14:14 |
| gmann | sorry for late | 14:14 |
| asettle | Summary: we have naming for V - Z. Not after, correct? | 14:14 |
| diablo_rojo | ...V release..in Vancouver.. | 14:14 |
| asettle | It's okay gmann we'll probably just never forgive you but it's fine | 14:14 |
| ttx | sorry missed the question above, multiplexing | 14:14 |
| asettle | ttx, all good, we're onto the next item. | 14:14 |
| asettle | We've got a lot to get through. | 14:14 |
| jungleboyj | V works out nicely. | 14:14 |
| asettle | So, great, we've got V-Z. What's our grand plans for after? | 14:14 |
| ttx | but yes I'm going to reach out to people for large scale SIG, based on registration data | 14:14 |
| njohnston | So there are now two additional proposals, to name after movie quotes or to name based on cities over a given population threshold but not tied to the summit location. Both stipulate V is for Vancouver. | 14:14 |
| corvus | sorry i missed, what's the plan for v-z? | 14:14 |
| ricolin | One thing I'm curious, do we need a PTG session for Release Naming? | 14:14 |
| ttx | We don;t have a plan for V-Z | 14:15 |
| ricolin | ttx thank | 14:15 |
| mugsie | I hope not | 14:15 |
| diablo_rojo | W,X,Y,Z are going to be a delight I'm sure. | 14:15 |
| diablo_rojo | ricolin, I really hope not. | 14:15 |
| asettle | We don't have a plan? Frick. Missed that. mugsie you performed a condorcet poll and there was a tie? We were unable to sort that out? | 14:15 |
| ttx | asettle: summary is... | 14:15 |
| asettle | I don' think it's appropriate to be accepting anymore suggestions at this stage. | 14:15 |
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| jungleboyj | asettle: ++ | 14:15 |
| ttx | None of the options proposed beat the "keep it the same" in the last round | 14:15 |
| mugsie | basically no one dislikes the current system enough to change it | 14:15 |
| diablo_rojo | asettle, agreed, don't need more options | 14:15 |
| ttx | We have two new proposals, which might beat "keep things the same" | 14:16 |
| asettle | For once, the community is not actually picking ridiculous sides. | 14:16 |
| zaneb | we don't have a plan that's different from the status quo | 14:16 |
| * mnaser would like to hear from corvus for starters given he brought this subject up | 14:16 | |
| asettle | ttx, it's past that stage though. We fairly opened the floor for everyone to come up with new ideas, and that time has ended. Sorry to be the cut throat one here, but we have done that. That's over. We couldn't agree. | 14:16 |
| ricolin | I mean we have a tie from poll let's re open a poll with only those two opions? | 14:16 |
| mnaser | unless this is ~the tc~ meeting only | 14:16 |
| ttx | asettle: the issue is.. if nothing that is already proposed can beat "keep thinsg the same" it means we should keep things the same | 14:16 |
| corvus | i feel like there are a substantial number of folks on the tc who acknowledge the problems, and supportchanging the process, but we haven't come to a consensus on how. how can we move forward? | 14:16 |
| ttx | I see no reason why we can't continue to propose options | 14:17 |
| zaneb | ricolin: how will that help? | 14:17 |
| corvus | was the condorcet poll structured in a way to do that, or do we need it structured a little differently? | 14:17 |
| ttx | We have two already proposed | 14:17 |
| corvus | i heard there was some confusion | 14:17 |
| mnaser | i think we're at like 2 polls? one with the old rosters and one with the new? | 14:17 |
| asettle | ttx, because it will create a snowball effect. If we continuously say "yeah come with your ideas" we're never going to make a decision. | 14:17 |
| asettle | People are going to have dreams and come up with ideas the next day, just when we thin kwe're going to get this sorted. | 14:18 |
| ttx | corvus: we had one poll to select the two best options, than one to compare those two with "keep things the same"... and none came out on top | 14:18 |
| asettle | We need to have a deadline. | 14:18 |
| ricolin | zaneb, just assume we need to have a way to move forward instead of take all the options but no decision out | 14:18 |
| ttx | asettle: I disagree. As long as we keep things the same, we can propose changes | 14:18 |
| mnaser | i agree with ttx | 14:18 |
| diablo_rojo | If we do allow for more ideas, we need a hard date that they need to be submitted by. | 14:18 |
| jungleboyj | Just to be totally clear, we have V taken care of. Correct? | 14:19 |
| corvus | there are a number of problems with the current system, among them: alienating contributors, cultural issues with host countries, cost in resources and time to run the process, and potential disconnect with future summit schedule. | 14:19 |
| asettle | Just V, yep. | 14:19 |
| ttx | Current status is: we keep things the same, none of the proposed options beats "keep things the same" | 14:19 |
| corvus | is keeping the status quo really okay? i don't think it is. | 14:19 |
| ttx | I strongly think we need to alter the system | 14:19 |
| gmann | jungleboyj: not yet | 14:19 |
| zaneb | I don't agree that we have V taken care of | 14:19 |
| ttx | so I'll continue to propose changes until one wins :) | 14:19 |
| mnaser | i agree with ttx on that too, especially with the recent osf announcement regarding events. | 14:19 |
| jungleboyj | Ok. Glad I asked. | 14:19 |
| zaneb | I think we *should* take care of V using the existing process though | 14:19 |
| ttx | V is not taken care of at all | 14:19 |
| ricolin | jungleboyj, some propose just go with Vancouver but nothing is decided | 14:20 |
| gmann | zaneb: +1 | 14:20 |
| ttx | We have two proposed options that do take care of V, then V-Z, then A-Z | 14:20 |
| mnaser | in a few weeks we're going to be in a "oops, we don't have 2 summits a year, what now?" | 14:20 |
| ttx | mnaser: exactly | 14:20 |
| mnaser | so lets just get that over with now and fix the system starting now because waiting until Z is not right | 14:20 |
| ttx | The two options currently proposed indeed say "for V, let's say Vancouver" | 14:20 |
| ttx | but others might be proposed | 14:20 |
| asettle | Okay tc-members , I think we're going to need a significant slice of time to discuss next steps. I propose the following: An announcement that we are continuing to accept proposals as we are currently "staying the same". That the TC does not wish to continue with the same process, but we won't accept just "anythiNg", we want "better". | 14:21 |
| fungi | also having to wait until event locations are announced means we end up making a lot of compromises in other places to account for the fact that we don't yet have enough information to select a cycle name | 14:21 |
| ttx | asettle: personally I think we should vote on those, and if one ever gets 7 votes for, it should be accepted | 14:21 |
| ttx | just make sure your vote reflects that | 14:21 |
| asettle | ttx, would you like to take the action item of communicating this post-meeting? | 14:21 |
| njohnston | I agree with ttx | 14:21 |
| ttx | Don;t vote +1 on one that you prefer "keep it the same" over it | 14:22 |
| fungi | the reason an election official ended up being the one to push on the u cycle name was that we needed to start setting up the schedule for related elections | 14:22 |
| ttx | I'm happy to summarize the situation | 14:22 |
| jungleboyj | asettle: ttx We need to set a cut off date for making proposals then. | 14:22 |
| zaneb | yes, I think that now we have narrowed down the field, the regular voting rules are sufficient to handle it | 14:22 |
| ttx | jungleboyj: why? | 14:22 |
| ttx | jungleboyj: we can change it again in the future | 14:22 |
| mnaser | ^^^ | 14:22 |
| ttx | I'll just vote no | 14:22 |
| mnaser | yeah its not like this is something set hard in stone | 14:22 |
| asettle | #action ttx to summarise current situation with release naming and steps TC would like to take further. | 14:22 |
| ttx | but I don;t see why we should decide for all times | 14:22 |
| asettle | Personally I disagree, but I think we can take this conversation to a ML so we have a wider audience. | 14:23 |
| corvus | ttx: sounds good, thanks :) | 14:23 |
| ttx | I'll definitely only vote for things that project for the next A-Z | 14:23 |
| asettle | We need to move on with this meeting. | 14:23 |
| jungleboyj | asettle: ++ | 14:23 |
| asettle | Thank you ttx | 14:23 |
| ttx | corvus: you might want to alter your proposals so that they cover "any foreseeable future" | 14:23 |
| jungleboyj | I feel like we are going to just make it more complicated, but we can see what the community says. | 14:23 |
| corvus | ttx: will do | 14:23 |
| asettle | #topic New initiatives and/or report on previous initiatives | 14:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New initiatives and/or report on previous initiatives (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:23 | |
| mugsie | jungleboyj: ++ | 14:23 |
| asettle | Help gmann on the community goals following our new goal process. | 14:23 |
| asettle | It includes 1. Ussuri goal proposals update 2. Plan for V cycle goal discussion 3. One more TC member to Volunteer | 14:23 |
| gmann | 1. Ussuri goal proposals update | 14:24 |
| gmann | we already started collecting the ideas for U cycle goal | 14:24 |
| gmann | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PVG-u-series-goals | 14:24 |
| asettle | Fantastic | 14:24 |
| gmann | and we have 3 proposal till now which is good number | 14:24 |
| asettle | That is good. | 14:24 |
| gmann | we can wait for more or as next step we can ask author to start drafting the goal deyails as per our new process | 14:25 |
| asettle | Pleased to hear we're getting tracking there | 14:25 |
| gmann | details | 14:25 |
| asettle | traction* | 14:25 |
| gmann | and once we have details up then we do our regular review | 14:25 |
| *** AlanClark has joined #openstack-tc | 14:25 | |
| diablo_rojo | I can probably help gmann | 14:26 |
| asettle | gmann, need anything from tc-members? | 14:26 |
| gmann | diablo_rojo: thanks. that is 3rd point and really appreciated | 14:26 |
| gmann | 2. Plan for V cycle goal discussion | 14:26 |
| * diablo_rojo apologizes for jumping ahead | 14:26 | |
| asettle | ;) | 14:26 |
| gmann | forum sessions for V cycle goal discussion is not selected. so we have two options either merge the V goal discussion with U cycle goal sessions or leave the V cycle goal discussions or kickoff on ML | 14:27 |
| ricolin | we can moave kickoff it on ML and use PTG for it? | 14:27 |
| gmann | U cycle goal sessions is more of discussing the implementation details of u cycle goals | 14:27 |
| ricolin | *moave/maybe | 14:28 |
| ricolin | gmann, yeah, totally agree | 14:28 |
| gmann | ricolin: PTG would not be suitable as it need more audience than just TC. i am afraid many will be busy in their project PTG | 14:28 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: ++ | 14:29 |
| ricolin | gmann, PTG just sounds like the best second option IMO | 14:29 |
| gmann | NOTE- next summit of f2f conference will be in V release cycle not before that so we need this to start before V cycle start | 14:29 |
| *** adriant has quit IRC | 14:29 | |
| asettle | gmann, perhaps it seems reasonable to merge? jroll and I were at the forum selection meeting and there was discussion of providing more time for a double slot | 14:30 |
| asettle | So it could be split in half? | 14:30 |
| ttx | gmann: how is that different from U ? | 14:30 |
| njohnston | My concern is that V is far enough in the future that people are going to have a hard time concentrating on what the community needs will be at that point | 14:30 |
| asettle | Good point | 14:30 |
| ricolin | are we allow to change forum name to said U+V? | 14:30 |
| ttx | I think we can have the V discussion asynchronously | 14:31 |
| *** adriant has joined #openstack-tc | 14:31 | |
| ttx | V is just too abstract to select V cycle goals now | 14:31 |
| gmann | ok. | 14:31 |
| jungleboyj | ttx: Sounds reasonable. | 14:31 |
| njohnston | ricolin: I think that is a more sensible idea, say U plus brainstorming for V, with the note that V goals will be formalized on the ML as we get closer. | 14:31 |
| ttx | I mean, we can definitely look at the backlog | 14:31 |
| diablo_rojo | Yeah I think things are a little early for V at this point. | 14:31 |
| mugsie | s/can/should/ :P | 14:31 |
| jungleboyj | njohnston: ++ | 14:32 |
| ttx | but starting the selection process... probably not | 14:32 |
| mnaser | i think if we've learned anything it's that goal selection process and discussion happening at forums is not the best thing to do | 14:32 |
| mnaser | based on logistics, timing, etc. | 14:32 |
| ricolin | Jump out a little. For V, I kind of hope we can have one for overall metering or arm support (there's a forum for arm), but assume we should create a popup team to investigate first. if anyone also interested with:) | 14:32 |
| mnaser | i personally feel this fits much better than trying to stuff things into forums that happen way too early | 14:33 |
| mugsie | ricolin: we have a process, we should use it | 14:33 |
| gmann | but this time it will be implementation details of new proposed sessions and selection we will leave for later | 14:33 |
| asettle | gmann - I think we're going to have to take this to the ML so we have a proper discussion on the best next steps seeing as we are not in agreement here. | 14:33 |
| ricolin | mugsie, those two idea just come out of me:) | 14:33 |
| mnaser | (maybe we should play around the idea of having scheduled online conferences or meetings or something to have those "forum" sessions during a cycle) | 14:33 |
| asettle | Could I put you down for an action item to compelte that, gmann ? | 14:33 |
| asettle | complete* | 14:33 |
| gmann | sure | 14:33 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, we can sync post meeting and get on the same page/you can tell me what you need help with :) | 14:34 |
| asettle | Thank you gmann | 14:34 |
| gmann | diablo_rojo: sure. I will sync up on that | 14:34 |
| asettle | #action gmann to email ML regarding U and V cycle forum collaboration (otherwise) | 14:34 |
| gmann | that's all from my side on goal | 14:35 |
| asettle | #action diablo_rojo to help gmann with forum selection | 14:35 |
| asettle | Thank you gmann | 14:35 |
| asettle | moving right along | 14:35 |
| asettle | mugsie - to sync with dhellmann or release-team to find the code for the proposal bot | 14:35 |
| asettle | UPdates? | 14:35 |
| mugsie | I belive evrardjp jumped the gun, and did the thing :) | 14:35 |
| fungi | i believe i pasted the link to it in here a month ago in the last meeting | 14:35 |
| asettle | Fabulous, I'll scribble that one out. I was not in the last meeting :) | 14:35 |
| asettle | jroll - ttx Feedback from the forum selection committee | 14:36 |
| smcginnis | mugsie: For the cycle job updates? | 14:36 |
| asettle | Follow up on https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PVG-TC-brainstorming | 14:36 |
| ttx | ohai | 14:36 |
| mugsie | yeah | 14:36 |
| asettle | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PVG-TC-brainstorming | 14:36 |
| asettle | Final accepted list? | 14:36 |
| ttx | So I was not on the selection committee, but the results are in | 14:36 |
| asettle | Yah it was me and jroll - dunno why your name was there :P | 14:36 |
| jroll | I gave an update on the ML on this, and the etherpad has which were accepted as well | 14:36 |
| ttx | (shows as "accepted" in the etherpad) | 14:36 |
| asettle | Fabulous jroll :) | 14:36 |
| asettle | Any questions team before I move on from that one? | 14:36 |
| ttx | maybe the selection committee can explain the rationale for picking / not accepting sessions there :) | 14:37 |
| jroll | I think evrardjp suggested discussing what to do about the not accepted selections | 14:37 |
| asettle | sure, jroll ? | 14:37 |
| ttx | Like the PTl tip and tricks session... should we plan time to cover that in PTG? | 14:37 |
| jroll | yeah, so the committee agreed the PTL thing might be better for the PTG | 14:37 |
| jroll | as we'd have more current and prospective PTLs there | 14:37 |
| asettle | Yes, more targetted to the right audience. | 14:38 |
| ttx | fair.. maybe open the TC session with that on Friday? | 14:38 |
| ttx | so that PTLs can all go elsewhere after that? | 14:38 |
| jungleboyj | ttx: ++ | 14:38 |
| ttx | "elsewhere" meaning in the same room at another table | 14:38 |
| jroll | seems reasonable | 14:38 |
| jroll | the other rejected submission was the V goals - we put that off to make room for more project team sessions, IIRC. | 14:38 |
| ttx | ack | 14:39 |
| asettle | Correct from my memory too. We tried our best to have a decent variation of items, and combine things that were combinable. IE: Cinder's sessions | 14:39 |
| asettle | By combining more similar topics, we could open the floor for other items that haven't come up before | 14:40 |
| gmann | +1 | 14:40 |
| * mnaser maybe thinks we should spill this over to office hours | 14:40 | |
| asettle | mnaser, completely agree. | 14:40 |
| asettle | Any more questions about the forum selection, afterwards please | 14:40 |
| asettle | Moving on | 14:40 |
| ricolin | overall forum looks great to me #link https://www.openstack.org/summit/shanghai-2019/summit-schedule#track_groups=90 | 14:40 |
| asettle | #topic addendums | 14:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "addendums (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:41 | |
| ricolin | thanks asettle jroll | 14:41 |
| ttx | Also in case you missed it... jroll and I archived all non-official repos from the GitHub "openstack" org | 14:41 |
| asettle | I don't know who added this, or what it's supposed to be for buhhhtttt | 14:41 |
| asettle | "define goal select process schedule" | 14:41 |
| asettle | This is different discussion to select goals. We need to make sure we can have a schedule for cycles to follow. So we know when exactly to ask for goal idea, ask for champion, start +1 cycle goal select process, and start +2 cycle select process. | 14:41 |
| asettle | Thank you ttx :) | 14:41 |
| ricolin | asettle, we still have one for `mnaser: sync up with swift team on python3 migration` ? | 14:41 |
| asettle | Oh shit! | 14:41 |
| asettle | I'm so sorry mnaser | 14:41 |
| ttx | We'll continue curating that GitHub content, stay tuned | 14:41 |
| ricolin | I mean before addendums:) | 14:42 |
| mnaser | its fine, i think we mentioned last time that we're all good | 14:42 |
| * ttx addendumed | 14:42 | |
| asettle | mnaser, nothing to add? | 14:42 |
| mnaser | we can remove it at this point | 14:42 |
| asettle | Okay, thanks mnaser :) sorry for skipping! | 14:42 |
| asettle | Derpy brain | 14:42 |
| asettle | I blame birthday | 14:42 |
| ttx | there is a gif for that | 14:42 |
| jungleboyj | Birthday brain! | 14:42 |
| asettle | Okay, so, roll back to the "define goal select process schedule" | 14:43 |
| ttx | https://gph.is/1QpzoFx | 14:43 |
| asettle | ttx, me this morning | 14:43 |
| diablo_rojo | LOL | 14:43 |
| ricolin | My idea just like what I put on | 14:43 |
| ricolin | We need to make sure we can have a schedule for cycles to follow. So we know when exactly to ask for goal idea, ask for champion, start +1 cycle goal select process, and start +2 cycle select process. | 14:43 |
| gmann | I do not know who added but this seems good proposal to me, if we have proper schedule ready for goals it will be easy for TC to execute the new goal process and with current summit schedule. | 14:43 |
| jungleboyj | OMG | 14:43 |
| asettle | ricolin, is this yours? | 14:44 |
| ricolin | 'define goal select process schedule' | 14:44 |
| asettle | Ye | 14:44 |
| diablo_rojo | Seems like a good idea to me. | 14:44 |
| ricolin | I put that on but everyone can jump in:) | 14:44 |
| diablo_rojo | Certainly helps with running elections and gathering forum submissions | 14:44 |
| asettle | I agree. Anyone want to work together with ricolin to define this properly? | 14:44 |
| njohnston | I agree, it sounds sensible. | 14:44 |
| ricolin | IMO we should make this a real schedule so we can have more time to investigate into goals. | 14:44 |
| ricolin | The schedule should not block any new goal idea to join but will give us a chance to make sure the goals we already have are on schedule. | 14:44 |
| gmann | as per history "GuanYu, lin " | 14:44 |
| diablo_rojo | Those examples of schedules might be good to look at for guidance. | 14:44 |
| ricolin | gmann, that's me:) | 14:45 |
| asettle | tc-members - anyone to work with ricolin on this? :) | 14:45 |
| gmann | ricolin: ohk :) | 14:45 |
| asettle | I'll action you in | 14:45 |
| jungleboyj | Sounds like a good idea. | 14:45 |
| gmann | i can help ricolin | 14:45 |
| diablo_rojo | ricolin, I could probably help given my experience with elections and whatnot | 14:45 |
| ricolin | thanks gmann | 14:45 |
| asettle | #action gmann and ricolin to work on defining goal selection process schedule | 14:45 |
| asettle | THANKS FAM | 14:45 |
| ricolin | diablo_rojo, tnaks! | 14:45 |
| ricolin | *thanks! | 14:45 |
| asettle | Alright I saw this one in the chan yesterday I think | 14:45 |
| asettle | Maintain issue with Telemetery | 14:45 |
| asettle | Who put this one up? ricolin ? | 14:45 |
| ricolin | all me:) | 14:45 |
| * diablo_rojo now makes promise to herself to stop volunteering for things | 14:45 | |
| ricolin | I mean | 14:46 |
| ricolin | ttx got some report on the lack of maintain for telemetry project | 14:46 |
| ricolin | Also there's a unsync issue between Aodh and Gnocchi | 14:46 |
| ricolin | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-August/008541.html | 14:46 |
| asettle | Appreciated, thanks for the TL;DR | 14:46 |
| asettle | What can we do, ricolin ? | 14:46 |
| mnaser | tbh its probably time to sunset telemetry | 14:46 |
| mnaser | and start working with other communities on things that have become a much stronger standard of metrics collection (say: prometheus and co) | 14:47 |
| ricolin | I invited zhurong to join but assume he didn't received my message | 14:47 |
| asettle | Have we got another thread going with this topic?/ | 14:47 |
| asettle | ML thread, that is | 14:47 |
| jungleboyj | mnaser: That isn't a bad idea. | 14:47 |
| ricolin | mnaser, agree | 14:47 |
| njohnston | I wonder if we are at a point where we should start on a Telemetry v2. | 14:47 |
| jungleboyj | Leverage the technologies that are out there. | 14:47 |
| mnaser | why re-invent the wheel when there is a huge thriving ecosystem that's good at that | 14:47 |
| jungleboyj | mnaser: ++ | 14:47 |
| zaneb | every time we try to sunset it somebody pops out of the woodwork to say they'll keep it alive because they rely on it | 14:47 |
| asettle | Totally. mnaser - possible you could start the ML thread on this one? Get the ball rolling for community discussion? | 14:48 |
| njohnston | mnaser: Yes, include prometheus, but we can still make use of gnocchi as a storage option (although I know some people that would opt for influxdb instead) | 14:48 |
| mnaser | oh man | 14:48 |
| jungleboyj | I spoke with one of the architects at Elastic the other day and they would love to have help from the community. | 14:48 |
| mnaser | why do i get the fun ones "hey lets rm -rfv telemetry | 14:48 |
| asettle | mnaser, that "oh man" is "oh yes" right? ;) | 14:48 |
| asettle | HAHA | 14:48 |
| asettle | Cause you're fearless? | 14:48 |
| ricolin | not just what tools we can use but to update current resource around community | 14:48 |
| mugsie | there are people out there who use prometheous, telegraf etc with gnochi | 14:48 |
| asettle | mnaser, we can sync up and write it together? | 14:49 |
| ricolin | like I think heat already have some broken template to fix | 14:49 |
| mnaser | given gnocchi isnt even openstack, i wouldnt even "encourage" to use it | 14:49 |
| mnaser | there are very good solutions out there, things like thanos/etc | 14:49 |
| fungi | njohnston: i think that suggestion relies on someone taking over gnocchi. aiui, that's now also basically unmaintained | 14:49 |
| mnaser | asettle: i can write it now and send it and then mute the thread and hide all summit | 14:49 |
| mnaser | :D | 14:49 |
| njohnston | fungi: oh, that's a shame. I had not heard. | 14:49 |
| mugsie | i will say, I know there is a lot of telco tools that have been build on aodh and celiometer | 14:49 |
| asettle | #action mnaser (and asettle) to start ML thread reading Telemetry issue(s) | 14:49 |
| asettle | Perfect, mnaser ;) | 14:49 |
| gmann | also this sounds good proposal for the PTG discussions with telemetry team + users if any there | 14:49 |
| mugsie | and they *will* freak out if it goes away | 14:50 |
| gmann | after ML thread | 14:50 |
| asettle | I'll put myself down on the action item so we have two points of contact | 14:50 |
| zaneb | let's just be clear that monitoring can mean two different things: monitoring the openstack services and monitoring the user workloads | 14:50 |
| asettle | gmann, good call. Could you put that on our etherpad? | 14:50 |
| ricolin | I will update zhurong with all the discussion so he won't missed it | 14:50 |
| mugsie | zaneb: ++ | 14:50 |
| gmann | sure | 14:50 |
| asettle | ricolin, thank you. A kind warning will no doubt be appreciated. | 14:50 |
| asettle | Thank you gmann | 14:50 |
| asettle | Okay, let's jump into the last topic which will need the last 10 minutes | 14:50 |
| asettle | Overall review for TC summit and PTG plans | 14:50 |
| zaneb | at this point it would be crazy *not* to use prometheus for the former, but it is faaar from a drop-in replacement for Telemetry (or Monasca) for the latter | 14:50 |
| asettle | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PVG-TC-PTG | 14:51 |
| asettle | Current Shanghai PTG planning page | 14:51 |
| asettle | Has everyone looked at this? | 14:51 |
| gmann | thanks asettle for link, i was searching that | 14:51 |
| ricolin | The forum session is settled but PTG is not:( | 14:51 |
| asettle | Heh no worries :D | 14:51 |
| asettle | ricolin, indeed. | 14:51 |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 14:52 | |
| jroll | mnaser: I'm late, but gnocchi isn't maintained anymore, agree we shouldn't recommend it | 14:52 |
| ricolin | do we need a deadline for PTG session proposal? | 14:52 |
| asettle | tc-members - how do we feel about thsee suggestions? I think... yes perfect ricolin | 14:52 |
| ricolin | jroll, also there's Aodh not sync with Gnocchi issue | 14:52 |
| mnaser | i think someone should find the one from last time in denver | 14:53 |
| gmann | +1. deadline and we can use office hours to discuss the details/selection | 14:53 |
| asettle | mnaser, the etherpad? | 14:53 |
| mnaser | and see what were good topics we can bring out here | 14:53 |
| gmann | or schedule | 14:53 |
| mnaser | yeah | 14:53 |
| mnaser | and also, what about the board meeting presentation? what's happening with that? | 14:53 |
| jungleboyj | mnaser: ++ | 14:53 |
| ricolin | maybe oct 17 so we might have two weeks for prepare? | 14:53 |
| asettle | mnaser, have you synced up with evrardjp to make him aware of what needs to be done there? | 14:54 |
| asettle | ricolin, that seems like a reasonable date | 14:54 |
| ricolin | I will sync with evrardjp to make sure board meeting presentation will start early | 14:54 |
| mnaser | is there anything in specific needed? there isn't soemthing in specific that you needto be aware of per say | 14:54 |
| asettle | ricolin, great, thank you :) | 14:54 |
| mnaser | working together on our messaging to the board is important | 14:55 |
| asettle | mnaser, that's good to know. He's not here, so just figured if there was any knowledge to impart, that would be helpful | 14:55 |
| ricolin | since he's back around 23th, I will start prepare for it | 14:55 |
| mnaser | nah, no secret sauce, nothing that dhellmann or ttx gave me anyways :) | 14:55 |
| asettle | #action ricolin and evrardjp to sync up and work on board meeting presentation | 14:55 |
| asettle | mnaser, cool :D (might include that in one of the docs) | 14:55 |
| ricolin | mnaser, :) | 14:55 |
| ricolin | also TC dinner for summit:) | 14:56 |
| asettle | #action all tc-members to add topics to the PTG planning etherpad before Oct 17: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PVG-TC-PTG | 14:56 |
| asettle | Who organised the TC dinner for Denver? was that you, mnaser ? | 14:56 |
| diablo_rojo | ricolin, lol the important things ;) | 14:56 |
| ricolin | diablo_rojo, yeah! | 14:56 |
| ttx | that was me I think | 14:56 |
| gmann | we do not have TC user feedback topic for this meeting ? or it was for later.. | 14:56 |
| mnaser | i dont think that was me because if it was me we'd all be having happy meals at the mcdonalds | 14:56 |
| * diablo_rojo votes ttx organizes dinner | 14:56 | |
| gmann | :) | 14:56 |
| ttx | it's a thing I do | 14:56 |
| diablo_rojo | ttx has good taste :) | 14:56 |
| asettle | #action ttx to organise Shanghai TC dinner | 14:57 |
| asettle | ;) | 14:57 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: I can provide an update. | 14:57 |
| asettle | gmann, it's not on the agenda, but we have 3 minutes | 14:57 |
| gmann | ohk | 14:57 |
| asettle | Or, perhaps we can wait until the meeting closes | 14:57 |
| diablo_rojo | ttx, should go to that ultraviolet place that mordred has a reservation at ;) | 14:57 |
| jungleboyj | asettle: Either way. | 14:57 |
| ricolin | ttx I can help you one dinner plan if you needed | 14:57 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/election master: Re-Add Kendall as Election Official https://review.opendev.org/687646 | 14:57 |
| asettle | jungleboyj, could you provide in office hours after this? | 14:57 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Name releases after major cities https://review.opendev.org/677745 | 14:57 |
| ttx | who is going? Everyone but asettle and jroll? | 14:57 |
| ricolin | *one/on | 14:57 |
| jungleboyj | asettle: Yep. | 14:57 |
| mnaser | ttx: and njohnston isnt either | 14:57 |
| asettle | ttx, njohnston isn't going either | 14:57 |
| asettle | JINX | 14:57 |
| mnaser | cloudnull-afk: is an unknown afaik | 14:57 |
| ttx | mugsie? | 14:58 |
| asettle | Does anyone have any questions or concerns about the PTG they'd like to voice in the last few minutes? | 14:58 |
| mugsie | I am still waiting for a visa, but I should be fine | 14:58 |
| ttx | ok | 14:58 |
| ttx | Will keep track of that | 14:58 |
| asettle | tc-members - if everyone could stick around for office hours afterwards, jungleboyj will provide us with TC user survey feedback. | 14:58 |
| jungleboyj | asettle: No coffee in the meeting rooms. That is a concern. ;-) | 14:58 |
| asettle | jungleboyj, NOTED | 14:58 |
| mnaser | prepare to drink hot water | 14:58 |
| mnaser | everywhere | 14:58 |
| ricolin | mugsie, is there expected day for the visa result? | 14:58 |
| * mnaser would stash cold water bottles in their fridge all the time | 14:59 | |
| asettle | Good tip! | 14:59 |
| asettle | #action all TC members to drink plenty of water in Shanghai | 14:59 |
| ricolin | sparking water please:) | 14:59 |
| jungleboyj | mnaser: Thanks for the heads up. | 14:59 |
| asettle | (that'll confuse the frick out of JP next month) | 14:59 |
| mnaser | get 2 in my day every room, put both in my fridge lol | 14:59 |
| diablo_rojo | I literally laughed out loud when I heard that rule from the venue. | 14:59 |
| mugsie | ricolin: 22/10 apparently :? | 14:59 |
| diablo_rojo | And then cringed when I thought about telling the community about it. | 14:59 |
| asettle | Alright, any last words? | 14:59 |
| jungleboyj | diablo_rojo: Yeah ... | 14:59 |
| ricolin | asettle, I have one | 14:59 |
| jungleboyj | Welcome to China. | 14:59 |
| asettle | ricolin, go you've got like 30 seconds :p | 15:00 |
| ricolin | asettle, Happy Birthday:) | 15:00 |
| asettle | Okay it was more like 2 seconds | 15:00 |
| gmann | :) fast ricolin | 15:00 |
| asettle | AWWW THANKS ricolin :D | 15:00 |
| diablo_rojo | Dawwwwwww | 15:00 |
| gmann | wow | 15:00 |
| njohnston | happy birthdday asettle https://media.giphy.com/media/l2QZZMUmvtFYYBUWY/giphy.gif | 15:00 |
| asettle | <3 | 15:00 |
| ricolin | :) | 15:00 |
| gmann | Very happy birthday asettle | 15:00 |
| openstackgerrit | Frode Nordahl proposed openstack/governance master: Add ``charm-neutron-api-plugin-ovn`` charm https://review.opendev.org/687926 | 15:00 |
| ricolin | woohoo! | 15:00 |
| asettle | Thanks all :D | 15:00 |
| asettle | Alright, closing out: https://media.giphy.com/media/Xj1GHC7mXPquY/giphy.gif | 15:00 |
| diablo_rojo | https://media2.giphy.com/media/26FPpSuhgHvYo9Kyk/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611a6c01be57d056919ec328c807c1dac2b2b7935c9&rid=giphy.gif | 15:00 |
| mnaser | happy birfday | 15:00 |
| jungleboyj | Happy birthday again. | 15:00 |
| asettle | #endmeeting | 15:01 |
| mnaser | and thanks for hosting | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ | channel logs http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/" | 15:01 | |
| ricolin | I will prepare ML for meeting result:) | 15:01 |
| mnaser | it ain't easy | 15:01 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Oct 10 15:01:04 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2019/tc.2019-10-10-14.00.html | 15:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2019/tc.2019-10-10-14.00.txt | 15:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2019/tc.2019-10-10-14.00.log.html | 15:01 |
| asettle | thanks ricolin :) | 15:01 |
| ricolin | thanks asettle | 15:01 |
| asettle | Alright, jungleboyj take it away | 15:01 |
| gmann | thanks asettle for chair. | 15:01 |
| jungleboyj | Thanks! | 15:01 |
| asettle | You're welcome folks | 15:01 |
| jungleboyj | Yeah, so I forgot what a nightmare the results are to read. :-) | 15:01 |
| fungi | as in the freeform comments? | 15:02 |
| zaneb | mugsie, evrardjp: can we circle back to the proposal-bot thing? | 15:02 |
| jungleboyj | I have the files and will put together an etherpad with numbers out of it and highlight things that are interesting to discuss. | 15:02 |
| ricolin | office hour:) | 15:02 |
| zaneb | mugsie, evrardjp: I might have missed a memo :) what is the status of it? | 15:02 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: Yeah, and just the way the spreadsheet comes out. | 15:02 |
| fungi | oh, right | 15:03 |
| jungleboyj | asettle: I just added discussing it to the PTG topics. | 15:03 |
| gmann | +1 | 15:03 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: Not the end of the world. Just not something you can glance at and get info easily. | 15:03 |
| jungleboyj | So, I will process and compile info for us. | 15:03 |
| fungi | hence the call for volunteers to analyze it, yep ;) | 15:04 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 15:04 |
| jungleboyj | That was all I had there. Any questions/concerns? | 15:04 |
| jungleboyj | Assume we are just focused on the TC questions? | 15:05 |
| gmann | jungleboyj: thanks. I think yes, only TC questions | 15:05 |
| diablo_rojo | jungleboyj, yeah that would make sense | 15:06 |
| gmann | can you paste the link in ptg etherpad also once you are ready | 15:06 |
| jungleboyj | Ok, cool. Wanted to make sure. Guess since you guys haven't done it before there is no precedent. | 15:06 |
| ricolin | thanks jungleboyj :) | 15:09 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: Of course. | 15:09 |
| gmann | jungleboyj: thanks | 15:09 |
| jungleboyj | Welcome. I always find that interesting. | 15:09 |
| gmann | tc-members: as majority of us are ok with proposed time. I will send the notification of "py2.7 drop discussion on 24th Oct office hour" o ML sometime in next week. | 15:11 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: Sounds good. | 15:12 |
| njohnston | sounds good. I know a number of projects have already started - neutron and some stadium projects for example, and I saw an oslo project that already has proposals to drop use of the six library. So it's good to coordinate before people get too far ahead. | 15:12 |
| jungleboyj | Cinder has made all CIs move to Py3. So it is being tested by the vendors. | 15:13 |
| jungleboyj | Have other projects done that? | 15:13 |
| gmann | yeah. also i remember your patches of grenade job drop which i objected before. | 15:13 |
| gmann | jungleboyj: i think yes. swift was last one i think which is now ok. they have integration oy3 job also running fine | 15:14 |
| ricolin | asettle, do you have any reference doc for me for test pdf doc with tox? I found it need a great number of package installed before I can build pdf doc | 15:14 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: Ok. Good. | 15:14 |
| asettle | ricolin, what do you mean? https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/train-pdf-support-goal | 15:14 |
| gmann | but we can find out if annyone not done yet | 15:14 |
| * ricolin waiting for web page loading | 15:15 | |
| njohnston | neutron and all stadium projects except midonet have only openstack-tox-py27 jobs on py27, except for one project that has centos7-specific jobs which are also using py27. Exception is midonet, which is still working on being usable on Bionic. | 15:16 |
| gmann | yeah, i remember midonet was not ready for Bionic | 15:16 |
| smcginnis | Once oslo drops six, that's kind of the start of the dominos falling. | 15:17 |
| jungleboyj | smcginnis: House of cards? | 15:17 |
| smcginnis | It may be good to block any of that until the projects are ready, otherwise that is going to be very disruptive. | 15:17 |
| smcginnis | jungleboyj: ++ | 15:17 |
| njohnston | #openstack-oslo/2019-10-09.log:[11:18:31] <openstackgerrit> Stephen Finucane proposed openstack/oslo.config master: Remove six https://review.opendev.org/687355 | 15:17 |
| smcginnis | That's a mighty big hammer. | 15:17 |
| jroll | this is almost as disruptive: https://review.opendev.org/#/c/687354/3 | 15:18 |
| jroll | (oslo dropping 2.7 testing) | 15:18 |
| smcginnis | Pretty risky. | 15:19 |
| jroll | I think the first discussion to have is "do most projects want to drop py2 immediately?" | 15:19 |
| jroll | if they don't, we should keep py2 around in things like oslo and devstack for some time | 15:19 |
| gmann | true. it should not be immediately. common projects should be the last one to go | 15:20 |
| ricolin | asettle, yes that one, but I been asked to install a lot of texlive-* deb package before I can finish the building process, just wondering if there's a required list | 15:20 |
| fungi | i think that's also somewhat up to the qa and oslo teams to decide too, since they may not have the bandwidth to continue supporting python 2.7 | 15:20 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: ++ | 15:20 |
| asettle | ricolin, nope. That's a bit of ... figure it out | 15:20 |
| asettle | Sdaly | 15:20 |
| smcginnis | If we drop now, that could make backporting to stable/train and older more difficult. But if we do drop now, then that makes future work and backports to stable/ussuri easier. | 15:21 |
| jroll | fungi: indeed, I think projects who want to keep it around may need to step up to help maintain that support | 15:21 |
| smcginnis | But given U is out after https://pythonclock.org/, I'm for oingt. | 15:21 |
| gmann | from qa perspective, we are ok to wait say till mod of U once we make sure no projects need py2.7 support from qa tooling | 15:21 |
| smcginnis | I just think we should make sure it's handled gracefully. | 15:21 |
| ricolin | asettle, okay I will install with texlive-* | 15:21 |
| asettle | Basically :( sorry | 15:21 |
| jungleboyj | smcginnis: Need the 24 Clock Sound Effect on that. | 15:22 |
| smcginnis | ;) | 15:22 |
| njohnston | I think dropping six and backwards compatibility measures for py27 might be a good discussion for the V cycle | 15:22 |
| ricolin | 1G space gone :o | 15:22 |
| njohnston | so we have the U cycle as buffer space between the versions that depend on py27 and the version that actively deletes it | 15:22 |
| jungleboyj | That sounds like the safest way to go. | 15:23 |
| gmann | I can start the thread of holding the oslo, qa drop py2.7 before we confirm everything is ready. I mean in same ML thread where i will notify the discussions. that way we can start the discussion early and conclude in office hour. | 15:24 |
| mugsie | yeah, but I think that should be a relitively hard deadline, and teams that cannot / will not drop the support should not expect QA / oslo support past V | 15:24 |
| bnemec | I'd rather see projects that can start dropping it asap. | 15:24 |
| mugsie | past U* | 15:24 |
| bnemec | Getting all of openstack migrated off py2 isn't going ot happen overnight. | 15:25 |
| bnemec | *to | 15:25 |
| gmann | bnemec: yeah. but if any project want to continue on py2.7 for some time those need oslo and qa tooling supporting py2.7 | 15:25 |
| bnemec | Yeah, understand that. I'm objecting to a policy of keeping py2 around for the U cycle. | 15:26 |
| gmann | mugsie: sounds good. | 15:26 |
| mugsie | bnemec: if I was a BDFL, it would be gone next week | 15:26 |
| bnemec | It may take us an entire cycle just to get it out of Oslo. | 15:26 |
| mugsie | yeah, I could see that | 15:27 |
| smcginnis | bnemec: Might be good to get all the oslo work prep'd but W-1 it until we have a feel for how ready the consuming projects are for it to happen. | 15:27 |
| gmann | we ask for projects to start dropping and if any project want to keep and need oslo, qa support then come first and discuss the plan. | 15:28 |
| bnemec | The timing of who can drop py2 when might require a lot more discussion too. | 15:28 |
| bnemec | For example, any projects that are colocated in the gate can't really drop without the others being ready, right? | 15:28 |
| mugsie | zaneb: sorry, stepped away earlier - I think the patches for the auto bot were held up by us not having a job defined yet, and I think the release team said to push it this cycle | 15:29 |
| fungi | on a related note i've just now approved ianw's change to start launching centos-8 nodes in opendev's nodepool, so assuming we don't find any other gotchas we should have a centos with python3 (and no python2.7) available for jobs to switch to shortly | 15:29 |
| mugsie | `o/ | 15:29 |
| mugsie | \o/ | 15:29 |
| smcginnis | bnemec: You're right. This is a minefield. | 15:29 |
| gmann | dependent projects need to coordinate on that part. | 15:30 |
| zaneb | mugsie: does this help? https://review.opendev.org/#/c/685453/ | 15:30 |
| gmann | fungi: great. we can add new job on devstack/tempest with that new node | 15:30 |
| njohnston | So, does that make this rise to the level of a community goal? And if so, is it a U goal or a V goal? | 15:30 |
| mugsie | do they? can we not update devstack to run the py3 on py3, while the ones needing 2.7 can still test that? | 15:30 |
| smcginnis | Might be good to make it an official U goal. | 15:31 |
| mugsie | zaneb: it does | 15:31 |
| smcginnis | That way any projects that want to keep py2 have a place to argue why to keep things around. | 15:32 |
| bnemec | smcginnis: Somebody call this developer: http://gph.is/1O1KX2I | 15:32 |
| zaneb | we had a way of forcing certain projects (*cough* swift) to be py2 in a py3 devstack. I guess we'd have to do the opposite | 15:32 |
| gmann | ok. and making a plan for all projects and common projects can be as part of goal with deadlines ? | 15:32 |
| smcginnis | bnemec: Hah! | 15:32 |
| gmann | I am not sure how many projects want to keep. if no one then it will be easy for us | 15:33 |
| mugsie | I can think of one possibiliy | 15:33 |
| njohnston | I am concerned less about projects that want to keep py27 as much as projects that are riding on fumes, with noone really left to do the work | 15:33 |
| njohnston | but we'll have to see | 15:34 |
| fungi | i know of projects which will want to retain 2.7 compatibility for some time to come, but they can work without oslo and don't need devstack to test whether that works | 15:35 |
| gmann | ok, as far as no dependency then it is ok. independently maintaining is always ok. | 15:35 |
| fungi | but yeah, i don't think that projects with limited/no contributors should be able to hold the qa and oslo teams hostage forcing them to continue maintaining 2.7 support beyond whatever timeframe they're comfortable with | 15:36 |
| bnemec | What if we just dropped py2 jobs but didn't do the six and friends removal right away? | 15:38 |
| njohnston | bnemec: Yeah, that was what I proposed earlier: drop py27 testing in U cycle, but wait until V to take measures that are actively hostile to py27 like removing six. | 15:39 |
| fungi | it's a reasonable option, but does increase the risk that python 2.7 functionality breaks such that people using it under 2.7 in their own jobs will be the first to notice | 15:39 |
| fungi | of course, that also gives the people who care about keeping that working an incentive to pitch in | 15:39 |
| njohnston | ^^ that | 15:39 |
| bnemec | njohnston: Ah, I misunderstood. I'm still not sure I want to wait an entire cycle to start on this though. :-/ | 15:40 |
| gmann | yeah, wiithout job it is risky to say it working | 15:40 |
| gmann | how about this plan: send ML thread on Oct 18th (when Train is officially released) 1. any project want to drop py2.7 they can do (once train release/backport is done) 2. hold oslo and qa to drop the py2.7 until we discuss the plan on 24th TC office hours 3. any project want to keep py2.7 and need support from oslo or qa, raise hand asap | 15:40 |
| gmann | i am hoping we decide to drop from oslo and qa by mid of U not by end | 15:41 |
| smcginnis | ++ | 15:41 |
| bnemec | There are projects besides oslo and qa that have the same problem. | 15:41 |
| bnemec | os-brick for example. | 15:41 |
| bnemec | Maybe any service project? | 15:41 |
| smcginnis | Backports can still happen of course, just may take a little extra work to get some changes in shape to be backported. | 15:42 |
| bnemec | But libraries need to wait. | 15:42 |
| gmann | yeah, any common lib | 15:42 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: ++ | 15:42 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, services (and clients?) first, then libs. | 15:42 |
| jungleboyj | That makes sense to me. | 15:43 |
| gmann | true | 15:43 |
| bnemec | +1 | 15:44 |
| gmann | I wait for Train office release and then start the ML thread. till than we can hold the oslo, qa or any lib drooping the py2.7 | 15:45 |
| njohnston | +1 | 15:45 |
| gmann | *official | 15:45 |
| jungleboyj | +1 | 15:47 |
| fungi | might make sense to tie those deadlines to cycle milestones | 15:48 |
| fungi | so by milestone 1 drop affected jobs from any leaf projects which rely on libraries planning to cease testing on 2.7 | 15:49 |
| gmann | good idea. I can prepare the draft on etherpad before discussion and then we can execute or draft community-wide goal if ok. | 15:49 |
| fungi | then by milestone 2 any libraries and test frameworks which plan to drop 2.7 testing should do so | 15:50 |
| jungleboyj | Sounds like a plan to me. | 15:50 |
| gmann | indeed | 15:50 |
| fungi | this allows the libs to coordinate releases without 2.7 support around milestone 2 | 15:51 |
| fungi | and provides plenty of time for cleanup when we see what that breaks which we didn't anticipate | 15:51 |
| fungi | ideally before the rush at milestone 3 | 15:51 |
| fungi | when it would be far more disruptive for everyone | 15:51 |
| gmann | yeah, that give us good amount of time | 15:52 |
| smcginnis | The milestone 1 to 2 is a little longer than normal, so that should work well. | 15:53 |
| smcginnis | Well, longer, but also includes the end of year holidays. | 15:53 |
| jungleboyj | So actually shorter. ;-) | 15:53 |
| smcginnis | But spending new years ripping out py2 code sounds like a great vacation day to me. :) | 15:53 |
| gmann | but still almost 2 months | 15:53 |
| * smcginnis loves ripping out code | 15:53 | |
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| jungleboyj | smcginnis: Is so weird | 15:55 |
| jungleboyj | Then again, what else is there to do at that time in Minnesota? | 15:55 |
| smcginnis | That's true! | 15:56 |
| fungi | new year's resolution: auld lang cleanup | 15:56 |
| * fungi made a cross-language pun | 15:57 | |
| smcginnis | :) | 15:58 |
| fungi | (with apologies to rabbie burns) | 16:00 |
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