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| openstackgerrit | Luigi Toscano proposed openstack/governance master: Propose a new goal to migrate all legacy zuul jobs https://review.opendev.org/691278 | 09:55 |
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| evrardjp | zaneb we don't have enough patches up so it seems... | 13:25 |
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| evrardjp | I think we are supposed to have a meeting in 20 minutes, did I get that right? | 13:40 |
| evrardjp | there is no apologies for absence, so I suppose everyone will be there :) | 13:42 |
| openstackgerrit | Jean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/governance master: Reorder repos https://review.opendev.org/701679 | 13:43 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/governance master: Make mistral-dashboard a separate deliverable https://review.opendev.org/700368 | 13:44 |
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| gmann | o/ | 13:47 |
| ttx | o/ | 13:48 |
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| ricolin | o/ | 13:49 |
| openstackgerrit | Rico Lin proposed openstack/governance-sigs master: Add Tony Breeds as Multi-Arch SIG chair https://review.opendev.org/702867 | 13:51 |
| ricolin | tonyb, ^^^ | 13:52 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add ideas for OpenStack repository https://review.opendev.org/701678 | 13:52 |
| tonyb | +1'd | 13:53 |
| tonyb | Thanks | 13:53 |
| evrardjp | tc-members meeting in 2 minutes, if my personal NTP isn't wrong | 13:58 |
| jroll | that is accurate by my personal NTP | 13:58 |
| ttx | I might have to drop before the end, but I'm here right now | 13:59 |
| evrardjp | ttx: I put your topics at the start | 13:59 |
| evrardjp | #startmeeting tc | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Jan 16 14:00:04 2020 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is evrardjp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 14:00 |
| njohnston | o/ | 14:00 |
| evrardjp | #topic rollcall | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:00 | |
| mnaser | o/ | 14:00 |
| jungleboyj | O/ | 14:00 |
| ttx | o/ | 14:00 |
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| ricolin | o/ | 14:01 |
| evrardjp | o/ | 14:01 |
| evrardjp | one more and we have quorum | 14:01 |
| evrardjp | jroll: still there? :) | 14:01 |
| gmann | o/ | 14:01 |
| evrardjp | woot | 14:01 |
| evrardjp | we have quorum | 14:01 |
| njohnston | o/ | 14:01 |
| evrardjp | let's start! | 14:02 |
| evrardjp | #topic Report on large scale sig | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Report on large scale sig (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:02 | |
| evrardjp | #link https://media.giphy.com/media/FlOHnTIv1mj2U/giphy.gif | 14:02 |
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| evrardjp | ttx: how does this fly and how/what are the action items? | 14:02 |
| jroll | \o | 14:02 |
| ttx | I post regular updates on the ML about it, it's going well so far | 14:03 |
| evrardjp | yup thanks about that | 14:03 |
| ttx | Participants are motivated, they held a meeting this week while I could not chair it and the co-chairs stepped up | 14:03 |
| evrardjp | great to hear! | 14:03 |
| ttx | So yes, current signs are pretty positive, now to turn that into results :) | 14:04 |
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| evrardjp | If you don't mind let's keep that for next month, so we'll see if the momentum is still there? | 14:04 |
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| ttx | yes, sure. I'll post a summary of this week meeting later this week | 14:05 |
| evrardjp | thanks! | 14:05 |
| evrardjp | #action ttx post a summary of large scale sig's meeting on the ML this week | 14:05 |
| evrardjp | #topic report about the vision reflection update, that should be started in January | 14:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report about the vision reflection update, that should be started in January (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:05 | |
| evrardjp | ttx, you want to say a few words? | 14:06 |
| ttx | well the postortem on that was pretty short | 14:07 |
| evrardjp | indeed, so I thought you might want to say a few words | 14:07 |
| ttx | Like few really seemed to care or object to my summary | 14:07 |
| ttx | TL;DR being: glad we did it, no value in doing another immediately again | 14:08 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Make mistral-dashboard a separate deliverable https://review.opendev.org/700368 | 14:08 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Reorder repos https://review.opendev.org/701679 | 14:08 |
| ttx | I think it was useful to wrap it up with a ML post though | 14:08 |
| evrardjp | I think too | 14:08 |
| ttx | so if we wind down other things in the future it's definitely a good way to close | 14:08 |
| evrardjp | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-December/011566.html | 14:10 |
| evrardjp | let's move on, shall we? | 14:10 |
| evrardjp | #topic report on the analysis of the survey | 14:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on the analysis of the survey (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:10 | |
| evrardjp | jungleboyj, a few words? | 14:10 |
| jungleboyj | Hey. | 14:10 |
| jungleboyj | So, a few people have reviewed what I put together. | 14:11 |
| jungleboyj | #link https://review.opendev.org/#/c/698582/ | 14:11 |
| jungleboyj | Thanks to all who have given input. | 14:11 |
| jungleboyj | It didn't look like there were strong objections to anything I said. | 14:11 |
| * asettle scrambles in the front door | 14:12 | |
| evrardjp | I guess that we are setting up a framework for the next iterations, do anyone think there is something missing? | 14:12 |
| jungleboyj | zaneb: Was hoping to have me do an analysis of users who said they used a project as compared to contribution. | 14:12 |
| evrardjp | can people check on the review and comment there, if not done already? | 14:12 |
| jungleboyj | I could do that analysis. | 14:13 |
| evrardjp | I think it could be valuable | 14:13 |
| gmann | i think after the % update for the users vs contributors. it will good data to publish somewhere to motivate more contribution from users. newsletter or ML ? | 14:13 |
| jungleboyj | I think the other open question is where this document should go. | 14:13 |
| evrardjp | gmann: maybe even collaborate with the board on this | 14:13 |
| gmann | +1 | 14:13 |
| evrardjp | (after publication) | 14:13 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: evrardjp ++ | 14:13 |
| jungleboyj | I think there is good information in there. | 14:13 |
| zaneb | o/ | 14:14 |
| zaneb | forgot to put this in my calendar | 14:14 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 14:14 |
| evrardjp | yeah I didn't send an ics or something, maybe I should if it's not on the usual day | 14:14 |
| jungleboyj | So, are we thinking this would be an ML post or go to a blog or ... | 14:14 |
| evrardjp | I am okay if we put this in goverannce. We can post the results in the ML afterwards. | 14:15 |
| evrardjp | (pointing to governance) | 14:15 |
| fungi | appendices to the project teams guide could be an option too | 14:15 |
| evrardjp | or the other way around, I don't really mind. | 14:15 |
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| gmann | yeah, keeping in governance doc will be good to quickly refer and maintain history | 14:15 |
| evrardjp | I think it's a governance topic, so I would prefer seeing it there | 14:15 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: ++ Ok. I was hoping it was something we would hold on it. | 14:15 |
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| jungleboyj | So, I if anyone else has comments, please review. I will make another draft next week. | 14:17 |
| evrardjp | sounds good, thanks jungleboyj! | 14:17 |
| jungleboyj | I will add the user data. | 14:17 |
| evrardjp | Let's move on, and discuss this in the review | 14:18 |
| evrardjp | #topic report on infra liaison and static hosting | 14:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on infra liaison and static hosting (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:18 | |
| jungleboyj | If anyone has strong feelings about where the document should go, please add those in the review. | 14:18 |
| jungleboyj | ++ | 14:18 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: any progress to report ? | 14:18 |
| evrardjp | is it me, or is the meeting really silent, and boring? Where are all the lively things? | 14:19 |
| mnaser | i haven't done much on that to be honest | 14:19 |
| mnaser | i think andres put all the base infra | 14:19 |
| mnaser | but i havent followed up with the rest, i'm planning to take a few cycles this weeekend to get through it | 14:20 |
| evrardjp | ok -- It might impact the "ideas" project, so I will have to contact you back on this, and help if necessary. | 14:20 |
| mnaser | sure, please do | 14:20 |
| jungleboyj | https://gph.is/2mWzTNG | 14:20 |
| evrardjp | jungleboyj: :) | 14:20 |
| fungi | yeah, several changes for it merged yesterday | 14:21 |
| fungi | (for the underlying hosting automation) | 14:21 |
| mnaser | openstack/ideas might be a good poc for that, but yeah, i need to pick up the slack on that | 14:21 |
| evrardjp | we can discuss that later in the ideas section if you like | 14:21 |
| evrardjp | let's move on to another topic on which jungleboyj's gif applies too | 14:21 |
| evrardjp | #topic report on stable branch policy work. | 14:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on stable branch policy work. (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:21 | |
| evrardjp | #link https://media.giphy.com/media/XpYyhn0Gutfaw/giphy.gif | 14:22 |
| evrardjp | mnaser, any extra since the email of smcginnis changing stable reviews from releases perspective? Is that enough? Is there more required? Should we revisit in a few months? | 14:22 |
| jungleboyj | *Laughing* | 14:22 |
| mnaser | i have a drafted change that i plan to push up on what we seem to have converged on the ML | 14:22 |
| mnaser | or at least, what i think we did :) | 14:22 |
| evrardjp | ok | 14:23 |
| evrardjp | oh I forgot a few action items in the previous topic, my bad | 14:23 |
| evrardjp | #action mnaser follow up on the static hosting | 14:24 |
| evrardjp | #action jungleboyj update the survey report patch | 14:24 |
| gmann | mnaser: +1. pushing that up for review will be good. | 14:24 |
| evrardjp | #action mnaser push an update to distill what happened on the ML in terms of stable branch policy | 14:25 |
| evrardjp | sorry for the mess there. | 14:25 |
| njohnston | https://media.giphy.com/media/Kun1AbKVIWhRm/giphy.gif | 14:25 |
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| evrardjp | I suppose we can go ahead, and we'll wait for your update mnaser | 14:25 |
| jungleboyj | njohnston: We all have those days. | 14:25 |
| evrardjp | jungleboyj: for me, it's today :p | 14:26 |
| evrardjp | #topic report on the oslo metrics project | 14:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on the oslo metrics project (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:26 | |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 14:26 |
| evrardjp | mnaser jroll: has code appeared since last convo? | 14:26 |
| mnaser | i think ttx had the ocmms with the individuals | 14:26 |
| jroll | not that I have seen | 14:26 |
| mnaser | and afaik none has, not that i know of | 14:26 |
| evrardjp | #link https://media.giphy.com/media/12NUbkX6p4xOO4/giphy.gif | 14:26 |
| ttx | checking for progress from last meeting logs | 14:26 |
| zaneb | bnemec: o/ | 14:26 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: well thought :) | 14:27 |
| ttx | so... spec is coming up, a bit delayed since the author had to deal with an outage in January | 14:27 |
| ricolin | ttx large scale SIG will help on tracking one oslo.metrics? | 14:27 |
| ttx | we large scale SIG are waiting for the first draft of that spec (from masahito @ LINE) before refining it | 14:28 |
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| ttx | hopefully more to tell by end of month | 14:29 |
| evrardjp | ok I will keep for the next month then | 14:29 |
| ttx | yes please | 14:29 |
| evrardjp | ok moving on | 14:29 |
| ricolin | ttx that's great | 14:30 |
| evrardjp | #topic report on the community goals for U and V, py2 drop, and goal select process schedule | 14:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on the community goals for U and V, py2 drop, and goal select process schedule (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:30 | |
| evrardjp | gmann: you want to say a few words? I saw patches updated very recently and things merging, so that's good! :) | 14:30 |
| gmann | Goals for U: This is latest and final update on selection of Ussuri cycle goals #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-January/012019.html | 14:30 |
| gmann | we have both goals ready now #link https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/selected/ussuri/index.html | 14:31 |
| evrardjp | thanks again for tackling this gmann. It's very hard work. | 14:31 |
| ttx | ++ | 14:31 |
| jungleboyj | ++ | 14:31 |
| gmann | V cycle goals: zuulv3 goal is updated by tosky. #link https://review.opendev.org/#/c/691278/ | 14:31 |
| gmann | its lgtm, ready for review from other members. | 14:32 |
| evrardjp | Do you need any support outside the reviews? | 14:32 |
| gmann | support for implementation ? | 14:32 |
| evrardjp | anything you think it's good to spread the word | 14:33 |
| gmann | tosky is champion to this goal, i would leave the planning and implementation part to him once we select it for V. and yes we can help him for sure. | 14:33 |
| njohnston | Neutron stadium is already close to done with the zuulv3 migration, we have been doing it in tandem with the py27 drop | 14:33 |
| gmann | once it is merged in proposed dir, i will move it to selected. | 14:33 |
| evrardjp | yes I think it's fair to say they will be selected :) | 14:34 |
| gmann | njohnston: +1. nova is also almost done. few experimental jobs are left seems | 14:34 |
| gmann | py2 drop: This is last update is ent on ML and next will be tomorrow: #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-December/011580.html | 14:35 |
| gmann | phase-2 is going on which is common lib and QA tooling to start dropping the py2. | 14:35 |
| tosky | njohnston: good to hear! | 14:35 |
| gmann | py2 drop schedule is there on main ussuri cycle schedule #link https://releases.openstack.org/ussuri/schedule.html | 14:35 |
| gmann | Goal select process schedule: This is merged and available in goal doc #link https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/index.html#goal-selection-schedule | 14:36 |
| evrardjp | I should have removed that one | 14:36 |
| smcginnis | For the record, I think it's way too late in the cycle to be approving more cycle goals. | 14:37 |
| ricolin | tosky, FYI heat jobs (except for grenade job) just migrated to zuul v3 | 14:37 |
| gmann | my plan is to start this process for W cycle goals which will be in V cycle. let's see how it goes. | 14:37 |
| gmann | smcginnis: zuulv3 migration s for V cycle. Ussuri cycle is finalized with 2 goals | 14:37 |
| smcginnis | gmann: I was referring to the newly approved U goal. | 14:38 |
| gmann | smcginnis: ohk. that is easy one i think in term of projects involvement and effort. | 14:38 |
| gmann | that's all from my side on goal things. | 14:38 |
| evrardjp | thanks for the report. | 14:39 |
| evrardjp | it's a very hard thing, and we are playing catch-up. I think gmann is doing a tremendous work to make sure we don't have late goals for V and W, so again, thank you gmann. | 14:39 |
| evrardjp | let's move on | 14:40 |
| evrardjp | #topic Report on the convo with Catalyst | 14:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Report on the convo with Catalyst (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:40 | |
| ricolin | gmann, we can create a ics schedule so no step of W cycle goals (including pre-select part) will be forgot | 14:40 |
| gmann | yeah target to streamline for V and W. | 14:40 |
| evrardjp | ricolin: evrardjp where are we now? | 14:40 |
| gmann | ricolin: +1. I will check. | 14:40 |
| ricolin | As promised, Telemetry PTL sended the report out | 14:41 |
| ricolin | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-December/011586.html | 14:41 |
| ricolin | In general, people from Telemetry team are welcome any one to join the discussion and help with that issue. | 14:41 |
| ricolin | I think we need someone with experience on monitoring services to keep following on next step. | 14:41 |
| ricolin | I can help on checking the status as auto-scaling SIG also affected by it, but will help if someone got more experience stepped in and help. | 14:41 |
| evrardjp | as far as I know there was this idea of forking gnocchi back into openstack/opendev, not really sure where we are | 14:41 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, that's considered as one of solution | 14:41 |
| * ricolin think we should stop calling convo with Catalyst since one of the co-PTL is from ZTE :) | 14:43 | |
| ttx | I need to run now, will catch up with logs | 14:43 |
| evrardjp | ricolin: fair. I should have said telemetry in general. | 14:43 |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 14:44 | |
| evrardjp | I am confused about the next steps. What if nobody shows up, we're gonna have things re-merged into telemetry, things that were painfully removed? | 14:44 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, that won't be worst than keep it broken | 14:45 |
| openstackgerrit | Akihiro Motoki proposed openstack/governance master: doc nit: remove unnecessary space https://review.opendev.org/702879 | 14:45 |
| zaneb | there were several volunteers to help maintain gnocchi in that thread | 14:47 |
| evrardjp | People seemed to have disagreed there, so I am concerned of a split. | 14:47 |
| zaneb | I would like to see us go ahead with the fork | 14:47 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: I haven't seen an action from them | 14:47 |
| zaneb | but I don't know that anybody picked up that action | 14:47 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: I agree though | 14:47 |
| ricolin | to fork gnocchi is not the worst idea, but we need to have people to make sure all discussion has been made (including the discussion in Gnocchi part) | 14:47 |
| zaneb | yes | 14:47 |
| evrardjp | I think forking gnocchi isn't _the_ solution, but it needs to enter in the mind of people actively looking for one :) | 14:48 |
| zaneb | but I don't think they'll object. they all have other jobs now and they effectively abandoned it | 14:48 |
| fungi | just to be clear, did ceilometer break due to gnocchi ceasing maintenance, or is it merely the cnocern that it might break in the future because gnocchi is unmaintained? | 14:48 |
| zaneb | fungi: the latter | 14:48 |
| evrardjp | sadly only the latter afaik fungi | 14:48 |
| evrardjp | but there are other concerns apparently | 14:48 |
| evrardjp | "mongo works for us" | 14:49 |
| fungi | so there is a scramble for ceilometer to remove a backend which is currently still working and was considered at the time of implementation superior to what they're hoping to switch it out for | 14:49 |
| zaneb | tbh I think the issue is more that it doesn't fit with the plans of the folks actually maintaining telemetry | 14:49 |
| mnaser | fwiw from an operator pov | 14:49 |
| zaneb | the people working on it actively are the people who need to keep it how it was 5 years ago | 14:49 |
| zaneb | the people who are happy with gnochhi are not contributing because they're happy with how it is | 14:50 |
| mnaser | i have given up on the telemetry stack and moved on to prometheus based stuff | 14:50 |
| jungleboyj | mnaser: I get the feeling that a lot of people have gone that way. | 14:50 |
| mnaser | i honestly cant recommend our telemetry stack to attempting to run openstack at decent scale | 14:50 |
| zaneb | mnaser: y'all do billing with prometheus? | 14:51 |
| mnaser | and the biggest root of that problem is the "holding onto things" which is manifesting again by adding the ceilometer api | 14:51 |
| evrardjp | it's maybe better to kill a project than trying to revive one with almost no future | 14:51 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, some current member from Telemetry team figure out some way to optimize mongo | 14:51 |
| mnaser | mongodb is a document database | 14:51 |
| mnaser | its not meant for metrics | 14:52 |
| mnaser | that was a mistake we did a long time ago because mongo was WeB sCaLe back then | 14:52 |
| mnaser | there is better, more reliable, more actively developed options | 14:52 |
| mnaser | zaneb: yes, and we have a bunch of open sourced exporters too (one for libvirt and another one for openvswitch soon) | 14:52 |
| evrardjp | we have 4 topics remining and 8 minutes | 14:52 |
| evrardjp | should we continue this in the office hours? | 14:52 |
| gmann | +1 | 14:53 |
| zaneb | +1 | 14:53 |
| ricolin | IMO as long as it's just a optional driver, I think bother to block that effort | 14:53 |
| ricolin | +1 | 14:53 |
| njohnston | +1 | 14:53 |
| jungleboyj | +1 | 14:53 |
| evrardjp | I think the last topics to report are fast | 14:53 |
| evrardjp | ok let's move on | 14:53 |
| evrardjp | #topic Report on multi-arch SIG | 14:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Report on multi-arch SIG (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:53 | |
| ricolin | think so too:) | 14:53 |
| evrardjp | ricolin: I see there are updates on that, even just before the meeting | 14:53 |
| evrardjp | anything to report? | 14:53 |
| ricolin | SIG is doing great, found a lot of tasks that this SIG can works on. | 14:53 |
| ricolin | Here's the initial meeting log from last meeting if anyone would like to see | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | and I suppose people are taking the tasks? :) | 14:54 |
| ricolin | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-January/011894.html | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | thanks! | 14:54 |
| ricolin | We also keep asking people if they can provide more CI resources to community, or join in anyway. For now, I document all resources in SIG etherpad | 14:54 |
| jungleboyj | That is good news. | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | good news indeed | 14:54 |
| gmann | nice. | 14:54 |
| ricolin | If you know anyone to can help on provide CI resources let us know!:) | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | anything else to report? | 14:54 |
| ricolin | I just propose adding tonyb as SIG chair https://review.opendev.org/70286 | 14:54 |
| ricolin | His experience will definitely help a lot. | 14:54 |
| mnaser | fwiw we have aarch64 nodes at vexxhost | 14:55 |
| evrardjp | #action everyone let the multi-arch SIG know if you have CI resources in different architectures :) | 14:55 |
| mnaser | we can probably help out wit ha few. | 14:55 |
| ricolin | mnaser, that's great to know!:) | 14:55 |
| ricolin | And finally, I will set up StoryBoard and repo for SIG before next Tue. . After that the others can have more clear view on what's going on in Multi-Arch. | 14:55 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: awesome! | 14:55 |
| mnaser | i'm happy to sponsor hosting different archs if a hardware vendor wants to provide hardware | 14:55 |
| mnaser | arm was extremely cool at providing us with hardware to make available, so yeah. | 14:55 |
| ricolin | mnaser, that's definitely helpful | 14:56 |
| jungleboyj | mnaser: That is great. | 14:56 |
| evrardjp | anything else? | 14:56 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, that's all I got | 14:56 |
| evrardjp | ok let's move to next topic | 14:56 |
| evrardjp | #topic report on release naming | 14:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on release naming (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:56 | |
| evrardjp | mugsie: Can we remove this, as the policy is changed, and we already started V/W already. | 14:56 |
| evrardjp | correct? | 14:56 |
| tonyb[m] | mnaser: I think there are vendors interested but it's a lot slower than I'd like | 14:56 |
| mugsie | evrardjp: sorry, double meeting -_- but yeah, I think os | 14:57 |
| mugsie | so* | 14:57 |
| evrardjp | ok | 14:57 |
| evrardjp | let's move to the next topic | 14:57 |
| evrardjp | #topic report on the ideas repo | 14:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on the ideas repo (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:57 | |
| jungleboyj | Our naming was Victoriaous ;-) | 14:57 |
| evrardjp | jungleboyj: haha | 14:57 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, what's next step plan for that repo:) | 14:57 |
| evrardjp | ok, the repo for crazy^W ideas got created recently | 14:57 |
| evrardjp | I will make sure that the framework is in place | 14:58 |
| jungleboyj | https://gph.is/2GiLazc | 14:58 |
| evrardjp | the idea would be to have it freely available and linked in the governance website | 14:58 |
| evrardjp | (pun intended) | 14:58 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 14:59 |
| evrardjp | more seriously, the content is there for anyone to jump and write what they think. | 14:59 |
| evrardjp | More news in the next meeting. | 14:59 |
| evrardjp | We'll probably be able to start drafting ideas at that time, which will be notified on the MLs. | 14:59 |
| evrardjp | next and last topic | 14:59 |
| evrardjp | #topic charter change | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "charter change (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:00 | |
| evrardjp | we have charter change that we need to pass very quickly before next elections | 15:00 |
| evrardjp | it went through a few iterations already, and it would be nice if you could all vote | 15:00 |
| evrardjp | or propose a change | 15:00 |
| gmann | #link https://review.opendev.org/#/c/699277/ | 15:00 |
| jungleboyj | Link? | 15:00 |
| evrardjp | #action tc-members review the charter change | 15:01 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: Thx | 15:01 |
| evrardjp | thanks gmann :) | 15:01 |
| zaneb | reminder that we need like 9 votes on this one | 15:01 |
| gmann | :) | 15:01 |
| evrardjp | yup, it's a charter-change, not formal vote :p | 15:01 |
| evrardjp | ahem ahem | 15:01 |
| * jungleboyj will vote now. | 15:01 | |
| zaneb | evrardjp: that wasn't directed at you ;) | 15:01 |
| evrardjp | ok that's all we have for the meeting. Thanks everyone! | 15:01 |
| evrardjp | we can now talk about telemetry in the office hours | 15:02 |
| zaneb | just that we need to round up everyone to vote | 15:02 |
| evrardjp | :) | 15:02 |
| evrardjp | thanks for the reminder zaneb | 15:02 |
| evrardjp | thanks everyone for your presence too, and let's continue to move things forward! | 15:02 |
| evrardjp | #endmeeting | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ | channel logs http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/" | 15:03 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Jan 16 15:03:02 2020 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:03 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2020/tc.2020-01-16-14.00.html | 15:03 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2020/tc.2020-01-16-14.00.txt | 15:03 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, thanks | 15:03 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2020/tc.2020-01-16-14.00.log.html | 15:03 |
| gmann | thanks evrardjp for chair. | 15:03 |
| diablo_rojo | Thanks evrardjp! | 15:03 |
| jungleboyj | Thanks! | 15:03 |
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| njohnston | Thanks! | 15:06 |
| mnaser | so anyone wanna talk telemetry | 15:07 |
| njohnston | sure | 15:09 |
| jungleboyj | https://gph.is/1VmlAcG | 15:09 |
| zaneb | jungleboyj++ | 15:10 |
| * jroll is listening but may not have much to say | 15:11 | |
| fungi | i think using "we got mongodb working really well" as an argument isn't very effective, since we can't really recommend closed-source software for our users | 15:11 |
| cloudnull | o/ | 15:12 |
| mnaser | right, so | 15:13 |
| fungi | (for those who may have forgotten, mongodb server releases after october 2018 are distributed under the "sspl" which is not an osi-approved license due to the additional restrictions it imposes) | 15:13 |
| mnaser | we've moved to using prometheus based monitorng with a few things on top of it like thanos | 15:13 |
| mnaser | that ecosystem is thriving | 15:13 |
| fungi | https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license | 15:13 |
| gmann | jungleboyj: that was good one :) | 15:14 |
| mnaser | and its very composable too, for example we have a libvirt exporter | 15:14 |
| ricolin | fungi, that's a good point | 15:14 |
| mnaser | and i have an openvswitch one that im thinking of putting out soon | 15:15 |
| zaneb | I'm gonna repeat what I say every time | 15:15 |
| mnaser | so we can replace all of the ceilometer "collectors" with simple exporters already | 15:15 |
| zaneb | Telemetry is a service that serves 3 different purposes: 1. operator monitoring; 2. billing; 3. tenant metrics (for e.g. autoscaling) | 15:16 |
| zaneb | in retrospect that was a mistake as those have conflicting requirements | 15:16 |
| zaneb | and probably should have been fulfilled by 2 or more different services | 15:16 |
| zaneb | BUT | 15:17 |
| zaneb | we have to be careful not to talk about replacing it with the solution to only 1 or 2 of those problems | 15:17 |
| jroll | mnaser: fwiw, I'd love to see a little doc on what your telemetry infra looks like | 15:17 |
| zaneb | because that isn't a replacement for all of its users | 15:17 |
| jungleboyj | zaneb: Good point. | 15:17 |
| jungleboyj | mnaser: What do you use for Billing then? | 15:17 |
| mnaser | zaneb: i have gave this thought actually. my idea was that we should make the data accessible/collectable, maybe several small composable systems that rely on external tooling | 15:18 |
| mnaser | for example: to do billing for nova, yo uhave to figure out how many hours an instance has been running and what flavor for example. | 15:18 |
| mnaser | that's also useful for an operator | 15:18 |
| njohnston | My concern is that we have something that listens to the notifications queues and makes events and metrics that nova, neutron, etc. push available. I have worked on a project to create an internal showback system that used gnocchi extensively and should have listened for a few aodh alerts (although I was never able to get that working). | 15:18 |
| mnaser | if you also capture things like cpu usage, then voila, that info is useful for all 3 | 15:18 |
| mnaser | now all you need panko to do is evaluate queries against a prom server for things like autoscaling | 15:19 |
| mnaser | your billing system queries that same system | 15:19 |
| mnaser | and your operator monitoring stuff can watch for system state (and again all we care are openstack-specific things) | 15:19 |
| mnaser | jroll: i should probably do a talk about it, we're actually making it a lot more generic so maybe we can share it at some point | 15:20 |
| jroll | <3 | 15:20 |
| mnaser | but its all prometheus now, with small exporters everywhere (and mostly all open sourced too) | 15:20 |
| mnaser | https://github.com/vexxhost/libvirtd_exporter | 15:20 |
| mnaser | we also have an openvswitch exporter that grabs network ids and port ids too in the prometheus labels | 15:20 |
| evrardjp | tbh I like what I hear there | 15:20 |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: Makes sense. | 15:21 |
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| ttx | back in business | 15:22 |
| mnaser | realistically i hate to say it but the solution to our problems is | 15:22 |
| ttx | catching up on logs | 15:22 |
| mnaser | start a brand new thing and forget the existing stuff. it is so difficult to "integrate" that with the existing stack | 15:22 |
| njohnston | Do you think that we could get enough enthusiasm for a prometheus-based solution to form a next-generation Telemetry v2.0 team? | 15:22 |
| fungi | this also sounds like what the trove maintainers wanted to do a year or two ago, and the tc had objections to leaving users of the old solution behind and making an all new api | 15:23 |
| mnaser | i think next generation telemetry v2.0 might be mostly a reference architecture | 15:23 |
| zaneb | mnaser: what's the migration path for existing users? that's the real question | 15:24 |
| mnaser | zaneb: none. unless someone is ready to do all the work of migrating old data in from the 8 different backends we supported over the years | 15:24 |
| mnaser | i think the problem is the fact we're not starting from scratc that makes it impossible | 15:25 |
| zaneb | I don't care about old data. I care about e.g. Aodh keeps working | 15:25 |
| zaneb | because it's integrated into all kinds of places | 15:25 |
| ricolin | I think whatever we plan, proper documentation and CI for most scenario (like autoscaling, etc.) is definitely needed | 15:26 |
| fungi | i guess the difference might be that the trove team wanted to abandon support on the old api/solution in favor of a replacement. on the other hand having both solutions available and supported might not be as bad (that's more like what happened with nova-network and neutron) | 15:26 |
| njohnston | I think a telemetry v2.0 team would really be a SIG, with the understanding that nothing would prevent you from doing both old and new - you could run Aodh and Prometheus at the same time without any interference. | 15:27 |
| ttx | njohnston: ++ | 15:27 |
| evrardjp | ++ | 15:27 |
| ricolin | ++ | 15:27 |
| evrardjp | but then it means no deliverable by cycle, isn't it? :p | 15:27 |
| evrardjp | which could be fine | 15:27 |
| ttx | evrardjp: it could be a SIG for integration and project team for developing any missing component | 15:28 |
| njohnston | Eventually it would be nice if aodh/gnocchi/etc. could be changed so they could optionally be a compatibility shim in front of Prometheus, but I don't know how those line up against each other well enough to know if that's feasible | 15:28 |
| ttx | but it's definitely an integration problem | 15:28 |
| zaneb | yes, that's great, but Aodh gets its data from somewhere. nobody wants to run two lots of telemetry stacks | 15:28 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: how would heat integrate without aodh, by using metrics from prom? | 15:29 |
| evrardjp | is that possible? | 15:29 |
| ttx | I feel like if we can find a solution that works for both mnaser and zaneb we cover all our requirements | 15:29 |
| zaneb | evrardjp: no, let's be clear. Aodh is a *user-facing* API. most of the integration in Heat (& Senlin) actually happens in userspace. you can't replace that with a reference design | 15:30 |
| evrardjp | oh yes I see | 15:30 |
| jungleboyj | ttx ++ | 15:31 |
| njohnston | Aodh gets it's data by listening to the notification queues in Rabbit, doesn't it? I don't think we could have a full-featured solution without some way for Prometheus to get a feed of those events in some way. | 15:31 |
| zaneb | for the record, I think mnaser is right and I think prometheus is the future | 15:31 |
| mnaser | so my idea was actually having a small composable service | 15:31 |
| mnaser | something that aodh can talk to and understand | 15:31 |
| mnaser | either make aodh understand native prom.. or have some translation/compatiblity layer | 15:32 |
| zaneb | that would be fine | 15:32 |
| mnaser | so we focus on simple code that implements an API as a thin layer.. instead of trying to engineer a time series storage db | 15:32 |
| njohnston | ++ | 15:32 |
| zaneb | yes, please | 15:32 |
| evrardjp | wasn't that the supposed goal of the initial refactor ? | 15:32 |
| evrardjp | so that timeseries got outside (inside gnocchi) | 15:33 |
| zaneb | evrardjp: well, they wrote their own time storage database. so... no? | 15:33 |
| zaneb | *series | 15:33 |
| mnaser | yeah gnocchi saying it was "just an api" was a disguise, esp for the ceph based stuff | 15:33 |
| jroll | yes, please no more NIH databases | 15:33 |
| mnaser | it was a full on implemetnation that manages to crash ceph clusters :) | 15:33 |
| zaneb | in Python, no less | 15:34 |
| mnaser | anyways, i think the hardest part is there are people already super invested in ceilometer | 15:35 |
| evrardjp | I am confused about what's proposed | 15:36 |
| mnaser | and there isnt much interest in improving it | 15:36 |
| evrardjp | so to make sure I understand what you're proposing is... for 1) (operator monitoring) and 2. (billing), you're proposing your reference implementation, and for 3) (auto-scaling) you're proposing that there need to have an update to aodh to support having info from somewhere else, did I get that right? | 15:38 |
| evrardjp | me and telemetry ... | 15:39 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 15:41 |
| jroll | so thinking about "migration paths", do we really need one? anyone that wants to use ceilometer/etc can continue to do so (and maintain it), anyone who doesn't want to can move to prom/etc? | 15:43 |
| jroll | competition isn't necessarily a bad thing | 15:43 |
| evrardjp | I am wondering where things overlap and will be causing frictions | 15:45 |
| evrardjp | this is why I asked some clarifications above | 15:45 |
| njohnston | We specifically call out that we should not have two projects that try to do the same thing, but I think (hope) that having this be a SIG would sidestep that rule. | 15:45 |
| njohnston | IIRC | 15:45 |
| evrardjp | I am not yet understanding the design proposed so I am not yet sure how this impacts the community as a whole | 15:45 |
| evrardjp | njohnston: I don't think so | 15:45 |
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| evrardjp | "Where it makes sense, the project cooperates with existing projects rather than gratuitously competing or reinventing the wheel" doesn't sound opposed | 15:47 |
| evrardjp | (see also https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/new-projects-requirements.html ) | 15:48 |
| njohnston | thanks, I was looking for the chapter and verse on that one | 15:48 |
| evrardjp | It's something we should evaluate properly, but I think that the scope will need to be crystal clear before accepting. | 15:49 |
| jungleboyj | So is the interpretation that the SIG is or isn't gratuitously competing? | 15:49 |
| njohnston | the latter IMHO | 15:50 |
| evrardjp | I think it's not gratuitously competing, it's proposing a different kind of service/integration point | 15:50 |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: Ok, that was my interpretation as well. | 15:50 |
| jroll | feels to me like a SIG for this should have an initial goal of experimenting and finding a reasonable solution (which mnaser has done some of), and until then we can't make any decisions about if it can replace or add on to the existing telemetry tooling | 15:51 |
| evrardjp | but as I said above, that's with my simple limited understanding, so please keep in mind that I might change my mind based on clarifications. | 15:51 |
| jroll | and I don't see that as competing | 15:51 |
| evrardjp | well I guess the question is "which sig" -- as it can be autoscaling (for point 3), and other sigs (for point 1 and 2) | 15:52 |
| ttx | definitely not gratuitously competing. It's to have a sane and future-proof solution | 15:53 |
| evrardjp | but let's not tackle this, it's not a big problem to have, SIG/popup team, I don't really care about the naming... What I would like to see is the outcome :) | 15:53 |
| jungleboyj | ttx: ++ | 15:53 |
| evrardjp | ttx: agreed | 15:53 |
| njohnston | evrardjp++ | 15:53 |
| njohnston | So is the next step for this to be proposed to the mailing list? | 15:59 |
| jungleboyj | Make sense. | 16:00 |
| njohnston | It would probably make sense to include a preliminary sketch of the technological direction this will be going, partially as a way to attract like-minded possible contributors. | 16:02 |
| evrardjp | I thin the conversation got lost now, and ppl moved to something else :p | 16:03 |
| evrardjp | think* | 16:03 |
| njohnston | hmm, probably so | 16:03 |
| evrardjp | let's see what will be done! | 16:03 |
| evrardjp | I have this in the agenda of next month, so we can keep track | 16:04 |
| njohnston | sounds good, thanks! | 16:04 |
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| zaneb | I agree that there's nothing gratuitous about this competition | 16:08 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance-sigs master: Add Tony Breeds as Multi-Arch SIG chair https://review.opendev.org/702867 | 16:18 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance-sigs master: Add more details in 'advisory' SIG status https://review.opendev.org/698956 | 16:19 |
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| ttx | It's actually the specific case we planned for when we wrote that sentence. Allow something revolutionary (in contrast to evolutionary) to be created when out toolset evolution drove us to a deadend | 16:30 |
| evrardjp | ttx: glad you had it all planned :p | 16:37 |
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| jungleboyj | ttx: Good planning. | 17:01 |
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| zaneb | in fact the TC was thinking of this specific case (with Telemetry), except that Monasca was the competitor | 17:03 |
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| fungi | that's very much the case, yes | 17:47 |
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