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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add charm-interface-keystone-notifications project https://review.opendev.org/703692 | 11:13 |
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| ricolin_ | o/ | 12:32 |
| gmann | o/ | 12:33 |
| evrardjp | o/ | 12:38 |
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| njohnston | o/ | 13:31 |
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| evrardjp | meeting soon! | 13:53 |
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| ricolin | meeting time:) | 14:00 |
| ricolin | #startmeeting tc | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Feb 6 14:00:18 2020 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ricolin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 14:00 |
| ricolin | #topic rollcall | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:00 | |
| ttx | o/ | 14:00 |
| diablo_rojo__ | o/ | 14:00 |
| ricolin | o/ | 14:00 |
| gmann | o/ | 14:00 |
| evrardjp | o/ | 14:00 |
| *** diablo_rojo__ is now known as diablo_rojo | 14:00 | |
| njohnston | o/ | 14:00 |
| ricolin | tc-members meeting time:) | 14:01 |
| mnaser | bonjour | 14:01 |
| evrardjp | thanks ricolin for hosting this time! | 14:01 |
| ricolin | mnaser, bonsoir:) | 14:02 |
| evrardjp | so much french mastery | 14:02 |
| ricolin | looks like we have a quorum:) | 14:02 |
| ricolin | #link https://giphy.com/gifs/marcelo-4lkkKZVCeyHLy | 14:02 |
| ricolin | #topic Report on large scale sig | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Report on large scale sig (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:02 | |
| ricolin | ttx how's everything there:) | 14:03 |
| ttx | Things are good. Slow progress. We can talk more about the oslo.metric spec when we cover that topic | 14:03 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, I'm not going to Paris without learning some:) | 14:03 |
| ttx | Not sure there is value in keeping it forever on the meeting agenda | 14:03 |
| ttx | I post updates on the ML for those interested | 14:04 |
| ricolin | next opendev event in Vancouver contains track `Large-scale Usage of Open Source Infrastructure Software (scale pain points, multi-location, CI/CD)`, is there any plan from large scale sig? | 14:04 |
| jungleboyj | o/ | 14:04 |
| ttx | Yes, there should be a in-person large scale SIG happening | 14:04 |
| ricolin | agree with you, that SIG is all on track | 14:04 |
| jroll | \o | 14:05 |
| * jroll neglected to put this one on his calendar, apologies | 14:05 | |
| ttx | we are trying to set reasonable expectations and steady albeit slow progress achieving those | 14:05 |
| ttx | next topic! | 14:05 |
| ricolin | ttx I wonder how can we help to attract more new joiner to the SIG | 14:05 |
| ttx | ricolin: I'm pitching it to the user companies I talk to | 14:06 |
| * ricolin think PTG is not the best place IMO | 14:06 | |
| ricolin | ttx great idea to approach user companies, maybe we should added it to SIG guideline:) | 14:07 |
| ricolin | Anyway that's something else, move on:) | 14:07 |
| ricolin | #topic Report on tc/uc merge | 14:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Report on tc/uc merge (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:07 | |
| ricolin | ttx, how's that going:) | 14:08 |
| ttx | I started to look into the corresponding bylaws changes | 14:08 |
| ttx | It's not very fun | 14:08 |
| ttx | So I'm all in the "is this really worth it" doubt phase | 14:08 |
| ttx | Shall have something to present for next meeting | 14:08 |
| ricolin | #link https://giphy.com/gifs/reaction-pretty-little-liars-pll-BnpZF3hWIyLgQ | 14:08 |
| gmann | other option is to distribute the UC tasks among SIG, TC and dismiss UC. if that avoid by-law things easy | 14:09 |
| ttx | Basically it's a costly move, fora psyops effects | 14:09 |
| evrardjp | the gif game is strong | 14:09 |
| ricolin | #action ttx report on tc/uc merge next meeting | 14:09 |
| evrardjp | agreed with ttx | 14:09 |
| ttx | gmann: yes. The costly change is really to rename the TC | 14:09 |
| njohnston | https://media.giphy.com/media/26FL35TKSXu8KwiR2/giphy.gif | 14:10 |
| ttx | But it's the alternative is basically to disband the UC and absorb its tasks into SIGs -- probably not a decision for us (TC) to make | 14:10 |
| ttx | err.. But the... | 14:10 |
| gmann | +1 | 14:10 |
| evrardjp | njohnston: :) | 14:10 |
| ttx | So yeah, more on taht later | 14:11 |
| evrardjp | thanks for the report! | 14:11 |
| gmann | ttx i think it will be TC as SIG will be under TC only if noo UC. yeah we can discuss later | 14:11 |
| ricolin | ttx is that means these need to present to board to grep approval eventually? | 14:11 |
| * ricolin think rename TC is not a bad idea | 14:12 | |
| ttx | I think if the best solution is to disband the UC, it has to come from the UC itself. | 14:12 |
| evrardjp | agreed | 14:12 |
| gmann | +1 | 14:12 |
| jungleboyj | Not a bad idea. Too bad it is hard. | 14:12 |
| ttx | Renaming the TC is very costly from a bylaws perspective, for a mostly psychological effect | 14:12 |
| ricolin | spotz, just like you to be aware of this discussion:) | 14:12 |
| evrardjp | jungleboyj: yup! | 14:12 |
| ttx | But an important psychological effect ("Ops are welcome here") | 14:12 |
| jungleboyj | ttx: ++ | 14:13 |
| ttx | So yeah, one morning I'm motivated and the next day I'm like "wow, is it really worth it" | 14:13 |
| evrardjp | haha | 14:13 |
| evrardjp | well, it's out of our hands right now. | 14:13 |
| ttx | ok next topic | 14:14 |
| evrardjp | I think it's noble, and thanks ttx for adressing this from your perspective | 14:14 |
| ttx | we need to go faster to cover everything | 14:14 |
| ricolin | we can certainly help to push that | 14:14 |
| evrardjp | ttx: +1 | 14:14 |
| ricolin | #topic report on the post for the analysis of the survey | 14:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on the post for the analysis of the survey (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:14 | |
| ricolin | jungleboyj, hey!:) | 14:14 |
| jungleboyj | Hey. | 14:15 |
| ricolin | jungleboyj already propose a patch for it, but we need tc-members to review it. | 14:15 |
| jungleboyj | So, I apologize for lack of progress here. My other job has become nuts. | 14:15 |
| ricolin | #link https://review.opendev.org/#/c/698582/ | 14:15 |
| evrardjp | the question I have, outside the folks needing review, is that there is a blog post or not to write... If there is, it will be hard to track just in the review | 14:16 |
| jungleboyj | ricolin: I had an additional comment to address. | 14:16 |
| evrardjp | so it would be good to keep it on the agenda for next time | 14:16 |
| * asettle stumbles in the front door | 14:16 | |
| asettle | Yellow | 14:16 |
| jungleboyj | FYI, I don't recommend trying to release a product with a Chinese team during a plague. | 14:16 |
| gmann | sending the doc link on ML can be enough but yeah writting blog post is more audience | 14:16 |
| ttx | jungleboyj: sounds like fun | 14:17 |
| jungleboyj | Something like that. | 14:17 |
| evrardjp | jungleboyj: Not sure plague is the right term. | 14:17 |
| ricolin | "virus" | 14:17 |
| evrardjp | but I am not english native :p | 14:17 |
| ttx | I bet that would apply to any pandemic | 14:17 |
| jungleboyj | ttx: ++ | 14:17 |
| evrardjp | it's not a pandemic afaik | 14:17 |
| ricolin | #action jungleboyj report on user survey update next meeting | 14:18 |
| ttx | evrardjp: the media treated it as one for sure | 14:18 |
| evrardjp | but hey, I will stop being pedantic :) | 14:18 |
| evrardjp | ttx: haha yeah | 14:18 |
| jungleboyj | ricolin: Yes, I will. I will try to get a new patch up in the next couple of days. | 14:18 |
| ricolin | jungleboyj, anything more on this topic in this meeting? | 14:18 |
| evrardjp | ttx: it's serious business though. | 14:18 |
| ricolin | jungleboyj, thanks | 14:18 |
| jungleboyj | ricolin: No. Thanks guys! | 14:18 |
| ricolin | move on:) | 14:18 |
| ricolin | #topic Report on the convo Telemetry | 14:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Report on the convo Telemetry (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:18 | |
| ricolin | For what I know, the ML discussion stopped at Dec. and there's no meeting for Telemetry since then. | 14:19 |
| ricolin | There are few works been pushed, like Improve Quota API. No much reviewer and patch activity. I feel like they need help to push through the entire finding solution for Gnocchi thing. | 14:19 |
| ricolin | A moderator will be nice | 14:20 |
| ricolin | Let's all I have for now, I will keep an eye on it | 14:20 |
| ricolin | s/Let/That/ | 14:21 |
| ttx | to be fair I'm not sure what we (the TC) can do. Someone has to care enough to put effort in this, effort which the TC can encourage/bless/support, but I'm not sure that benefits from being driven at TC-level | 14:21 |
| ttx | I feel like a sustainable-telemetry pop up team would be more efficient, if someone wanted badly-enough to fix the situation | 14:22 |
| ricolin | ttx, agree with you totally, I think to encourage to make the final call will be something TC can help | 14:22 |
| ricolin | we don't need to be part of that decision | 14:22 |
| ricolin | pop up team +1 | 14:23 |
| zaneb | o/ | 14:23 |
| ricolin | zaneb, o/ | 14:23 |
| spotz | ricolin: catching up | 14:24 |
| ricolin | spotz, thx | 14:24 |
| *** slaweq_ is now known as slaweq | 14:24 | |
| ricolin | ttx, I will rich out to ptl to see if they're in any status need our help | 14:24 |
| ricolin | move on | 14:24 |
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| ricolin | #topic Report on multi-arch SIG | 14:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Report on multi-arch SIG (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:25 | |
| ricolin | We have WIP for docs, and CI jobs, doc init structure will sended out this week. Not yet ask others if multi-arch SIG will join Vancouver opendev even. | 14:25 |
| ricolin | Since just get back from CNY, haven't got any chance to update with mnaser and Huawei guy for ARM resource donation yet, hope that's on going:) | 14:26 |
| mnaser | in my case, the hardware is already there and exists in the cloud thats part of openstack-infra | 14:26 |
| mnaser | just need to upload images with correct properties | 14:26 |
| ricolin | there's something need to fix in current ARM CI environment, and ianw is working on it | 14:26 |
| fungi | also it turns out that new arm environment isn't reachable from our prior arm environment in mainland china, so we had to relocate the image builder | 14:27 |
| ricolin | mnaser, that's great news, will sync with you out side of meeting:) | 14:28 |
| evrardjp | should we continue reporting here? I have the impression it's in good hands now, and that people interested can be doing so by reaching the SIG... Correct? | 14:28 |
| fungi | something something firewalls something | 14:28 |
| ricolin | fungi, that's the issue ianw is working on I assume | 14:28 |
| fungi | ricolin: actually he fixed that one | 14:28 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, we can leave it out of TC meeting for sure:) | 14:28 |
| fungi | now it's image properties, as mnaser indicated | 14:28 |
| mnaser | oh sorry | 14:29 |
| ricolin | fungi, thanks for the update info. | 14:29 |
| mnaser | im talking about arm hardware inside vexxhost | 14:29 |
| ricolin | Anything else need to discuss here? | 14:29 |
| evrardjp | nope | 14:29 |
| fungi | well, there's an issue with setting the right image properties in the new arm cloud too, it's looking like (last i heard anyway) | 14:29 |
| fungi | but i haven't caught up on it yet since yesterday | 14:30 |
| ricolin | fungi, is there any story I can trace this issue? | 14:30 |
| fungi | i believe there is but i don't know it off the top of my head | 14:31 |
| fungi | check in #openstack-infra after the meeting | 14:31 |
| ricolin | fungi, got it | 14:31 |
| ricolin | okay let's move on | 14:31 |
| ricolin | #topic report on infra liaison and static hosting | 14:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on infra liaison and static hosting (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:31 | |
| ricolin | mnaser, any update on this? | 14:31 |
| mnaser | i think the dns was updated a few days ago | 14:31 |
| mnaser | given i was a bit out of things because of some $personal_stuff, ianw and andreas did a lot of the work | 14:32 |
| mnaser | afaik, infra updated dns not long ago for those domains | 14:32 |
| fungi | yep | 14:32 |
| ricolin | super | 14:32 |
| evrardjp | I think we are good indeed, IIRC a comment from fungi during fosdem | 14:32 |
| mnaser | 2020-01-29 20:30:35 UTC governance.openstack.org and security.openstack.org switched CNAMEs to new static.opendev.org server | 14:32 |
| fungi | i think we're just down to rehoming the tarballs site now | 14:32 |
| evrardjp | I am removing this from the agenda of the meeting, as everything seems to be in good hands | 14:33 |
| mnaser | yeah, so that's mostly wrapped up, tarballs seems to be a different bigger beast that infra is dealing with | 14:33 |
| evrardjp | :D | 14:33 |
| evrardjp | from the agenda of next meeting* | 14:33 |
| ricolin | move on:) | 14:33 |
| ricolin | #topic report on stable branch policy work | 14:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on stable branch policy work (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:33 | |
| ricolin | mnaser, ^^^;) | 14:33 |
| mnaser | yeah, sorry, not pushed up :( | 14:34 |
| evrardjp | ok | 14:34 |
| mnaser | i'll try to get to it, but nothing has developed on that | 14:34 |
| evrardjp | let's keep it for next time then | 14:34 |
| ricolin | mnaser, I can make a action for this in next meeting:) | 14:34 |
| mnaser | hopefully it'll be gone by then | 14:34 |
| ricolin | #action mnaser to report on stable branch policy work | 14:35 |
| ricolin | #topic report on the oslo metrics project | 14:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on the oslo metrics project (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:35 | |
| ttx | There is a spec proposed | 14:35 |
| ricolin | ttx can you post the link:) | 14:35 |
| ttx | #link https://review.opendev.org/#/c/704733/ | 14:36 |
| ttx | Please have a look if you care about the topic :) | 14:36 |
| evrardjp | will there need to be a follow up after that? Or will it magically get done? | 14:36 |
| evrardjp | :D | 14:36 |
| ttx | it's early draft stage and I bet masahito-san would love comments | 14:36 |
| evrardjp | (to know if I can remove this from the topics, I love magic) | 14:36 |
| evrardjp | #action tc-members review https://review.opendev.org/#/c/704733/ | 14:37 |
| ttx | no need to keep it in-TC | 14:37 |
| ttx | people interested should join largescale SIG really | 14:37 |
| evrardjp | that's true | 14:37 |
| ricolin | a ML update will be nice:) | 14:37 |
| ricolin | let's see how the review goes | 14:38 |
| ricolin | move on | 14:38 |
| ricolin | #topic report on the community goals for U and V, py2 drop | 14:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on the community goals for U and V, py2 drop (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:38 | |
| ricolin | gmann, :) | 14:38 |
| gmann | U cycle community goals: We have 2 goals ready as updated over ML. Both goals are in progress. You can check the status updates on ML | 14:38 |
| gmann | py2 drop: #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-February/012310.html | 14:39 |
| ttx | Thanks for the updates on those | 14:39 |
| evrardjp | awesome! | 14:39 |
| gmann | Contribution goal: #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-February/012364.html | 14:39 |
| ricolin | gmann, nice job! | 14:39 |
| gmann | V cycle goal: I have started the ML to collect the ideas: #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-February/012396.html | 14:39 |
| gmann | there is etherpad to collect the ideas and then we will start the discussion on individual idea | 14:40 |
| njohnston | Thanks for your hard work on these. The py27 in particular has had some last minute twists. | 14:40 |
| diablo_rojo | Thanks for getting the next rounds started already gmann :) | 14:40 |
| ricolin | We have our first goal propose for V already | 14:40 |
| gmann | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-v-series-goals | 14:40 |
| evrardjp | sorry I didn't get the chance to comment on the ML yet gmann. But thanks for doing so | 14:40 |
| ricolin | the zuul migrate one | 14:40 |
| gmann | looking for one more TC member for driving it | 14:40 |
| jungleboyj | Yay! | 14:40 |
| mnaser | wow YVR again | 14:40 |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: ++ | 14:40 |
| gmann | please write your name on etherpad if interested | 14:40 |
| njohnston | I can help drive it | 14:40 |
| mnaser | time is going by :> | 14:41 |
| gmann | Py drop Drama: This is causing lot of issues/complexity than expected | 14:41 |
| zaneb | mnaser: next summit is BER again. it's a replay of 2018 | 14:41 |
| gmann | master gate is all ok and if any project still left with py2 jobs which will fail due to oslo and other lib dropping py2 can drop py2 jobs | 14:41 |
| ricolin | njohnston, you don't mind if I put an action on this? | 14:41 |
| jungleboyj | Thankfully at a Venure that is closer to things. | 14:41 |
| jungleboyj | *Venue | 14:42 |
| gmann | but stable branch testing till stable/rocky is all bad. I have been fixing those since last weeks or more | 14:42 |
| gmann | current issue fix is in progress: #link https://review.opendev.org/#/q/topic:fix-stable-gate+(status:open+OR+status:merged) | 14:42 |
| njohnston | ricolin: sure | 14:42 |
| ricolin | #action njohnston help with gmann to drive v series goals | 14:42 |
| ricolin | njohnston, thx:) | 14:43 |
| gmann | i have to fix devstack-gate for legacy ocata job which unblock the pike grenade job and so on. | 14:43 |
| gmann | let's see if i can bring up the stable gate green again | 14:43 |
| gmann | njohnston thanks | 14:43 |
| gmann | that's all from my side. question ? | 14:43 |
| evrardjp | no questions | 14:43 |
| ricolin | none from me, but this is how I see you now https://giphy.com/gifs/superman-man-of-steel-FiBzv5FRE85PO | 14:44 |
| evrardjp | except: is there a tc member that can help you? It seems a lot of work for just one person | 14:44 |
| evrardjp | so true | 14:44 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 14:44 |
| gmann | yeah, fixing py is more dynamic issues occur as lib drop py2. but as next week is deadline, we should have all potential failure and then fix them | 14:45 |
| ricolin | got to push the meeting schedule, let's keep the finding volunteer in office hour:) | 14:45 |
| gmann | one more thing: next week which is m-2 is target to finish the py drop from everything except requirement repo | 14:45 |
| evrardjp | ricolin: oh yeah I meant that as an asynchronous thing. We can continue ... | 14:46 |
| gmann | and then keep fixing the issue and make everything stable before m-3 or early | 14:46 |
| gmann | +1, we can move next. | 14:47 |
| ricolin | gmann, indeed important message to record in meeting, I think we need to figure out how can we help you with it | 14:47 |
| njohnston | gmann: if you have a sub task that you want to carve off the rest I can try to help lighten the load | 14:47 |
| ricolin | njohnston, :) | 14:47 |
| ricolin | #topic report on release naming | 14:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on release naming (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:47 | |
| gmann | njohnston great, i will post you for that. thanks | 14:47 |
| ricolin | Anyone can update the W progress? | 14:48 |
| ttx | naming still open until tomorrow | 14:48 |
| njohnston | lots of great names | 14:48 |
| zaneb | there's a good list | 14:48 |
| ricolin | zaneb, it is | 14:48 |
| evrardjp | I haven't received a member that asked me to vote for x or y yet. | 14:48 |
| jungleboyj | That is good to hear. | 14:48 |
| evrardjp | I mean W1 or W2 | 14:49 |
| ttx | most people missed that memo (that they would not vote) | 14:49 |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: ++ | 14:49 |
| gmann | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Release_Naming/W_Proposals | 14:49 |
| ricolin | definitely need to discuss this in our next office hour or meeting | 14:49 |
| evrardjp | ttx: well it was sent on the ML, so... | 14:49 |
| ricolin | #action mugsie help to report on W release naming | 14:50 |
| evrardjp | let's just continue our things, haters are gonna hate anyway | 14:50 |
| ricolin | move on | 14:50 |
| ricolin | #topic report on the ideas repo | 14:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on the ideas repo (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:50 | |
| ricolin | evrardjp, how's crazy idea goes:) | 14:50 |
| * gmann wondering how many request to ask for name support will be :) | 14:50 | |
| jungleboyj | I hadn't seen this list. Looks good. | 14:50 |
| evrardjp | in progress. will report on the ml when ready | 14:50 |
| evrardjp | currently at static hosting changes | 14:51 |
| ricolin | #action evrardjp report on ideas repo on ML | 14:51 |
| ricolin | #topic report on charter change | 14:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on charter change (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:52 | |
| ricolin | evrardjp, ^^^ | 14:52 |
| evrardjp | I think we can remove this from the action items | 14:52 |
| evrardjp | Everything is ready for the next elections afaik. | 14:52 |
| evrardjp | removing it now! | 14:53 |
| ricolin | okay, that's good news:) | 14:53 |
| ricolin | move on | 14:53 |
| ricolin | #topic Report on whether SIG guidelines worked | 14:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Report on whether SIG guidelines worked (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:53 | |
| ricolin | I actually got not much to update for this, I use it to settup Multi-Arch SIG and it works for me. Haven't got feedback from other SIGs but mostly is because this is more needed for new SIGs. | 14:53 |
| ricolin | IMO no need to keep this in TC meeting agenda anymore | 14:53 |
| evrardjp | ok | 14:54 |
| ricolin | anyway, moving forward:) | 14:54 |
| ricolin | #topic volunteers to represent OpenStack at the OpenDev advisory board | 14:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "volunteers to represent OpenStack at the OpenDev advisory board (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:54 | |
| ricolin | evrardjp, | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | yeah, so we received a call on the ML from clarkb | 14:54 |
| fungi | we basically need one volunteer to be the openstack liaison on the advisory board for the opendev collaboratory | 14:55 |
| evrardjp | I am fine with being that liaison for the time of my chairing | 14:55 |
| zaneb | does it have to be a TC member or just somebody we nominate? | 14:55 |
| ricolin | better from one of member not getting re-election this time | 14:55 |
| fungi | openstack's technical governing body can pick anyone they please | 14:55 |
| ttx | can be anyone really | 14:55 |
| * zaneb nominates fungi | 14:56 | |
| ttx | I'd pick Andreas personally :) | 14:56 |
| evrardjp | Infrastructure providers are also on the advisory board too, so we don't need to nominate mnaser :p | 14:56 |
| fungi | zaneb: ideally not a sysadmin for the collaboratory, but i don't think we discussed whether that would cause a problem | 14:56 |
| zaneb | we should probably put out a wider call for volunteers | 14:56 |
| ttx | yes ML thread is the right way | 14:57 |
| mnaser | ya just yell at me | 14:57 |
| fungi | so it raises a very good point anyway | 14:57 |
| mnaser | :> | 14:57 |
| gmann | timecheck: 3 min left | 14:57 |
| ricolin | gmann, thx | 14:57 |
| ricolin | I assume we can keep this discussion in office hour to find our best candidate | 14:58 |
| ricolin | move on | 14:58 |
| ricolin | #topic Report on the OSF board initiatives | 14:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Report on the OSF board initiatives (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:58 | |
| evrardjp | just ML will be good enough :) | 14:58 |
| evrardjp | yeah so... it's been a while we didn't report on what's going on in the board. Well basically there are initiatives started to get more contributors, with the help of mentoring and universities, IIRC. | 14:59 |
| evrardjp | If a board member or previous board member could say a few words, that would be awesome. | 14:59 |
| ricolin | Also the COA is back on again | 15:00 |
| evrardjp | I had prepared this better, but my notes are in a box in my new home, sorry. | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | There are some universities in Sweden that would like to include some real world hands on open source development. | 15:00 |
| gmann | +1. i think getting some result on that would be nice or we find some other way | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | We need to identify some good things they could work on over a few weeks time during the semester. | 15:00 |
| jungleboyj | smcginnis: ++ | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | ildikov and diablo_rojo have sent a few things out to the ML, but not sure if that's been widely seen/noticed. | 15:01 |
| evrardjp | smcginnis: ok should we start ML thread, or take from our pool of community goals? | 15:01 |
| gmann | smcginnisthat is for few weeks duration or some long term maintainer even with less bandwidth | 15:01 |
| smcginnis | Seems like we need a better way to build up a pipeline of things, but I don't have any good ideas. | 15:01 |
| evrardjp | I see | 15:01 |
| jungleboyj | smcginnis: I had pointed rosmaita at it but didn't see further action. | 15:01 |
| njohnston | I believe the Octavia team may be working with that group of Swedish students (or possiblky another pool of Swedes). I heard about that from johnsom. | 15:01 |
| smcginnis | gmann: The idea would be that it's just for a few weeks, but with the hope that it would get at least a few of them interested in continuing after the class is over. | 15:02 |
| gmann | ok. | 15:02 |
| smcginnis | njohnston: Oh, great! | 15:02 |
| evrardjp | I guess in the meantime, the investment opportunities and the community goals are the first targets... | 15:02 |
| johnsom | North Dakota State University | 15:02 |
| diablo_rojo | njohnston, those or NDSU students | 15:02 |
| smcginnis | Getting their help on community goal completion could be a good way to have a discrete item of work for them to focus on. | 15:02 |
| gmann | evrardjp true but that need longer time commitment from contributors | 15:03 |
| njohnston | johnsom: Ah, well North Dakota is basically half of Swedish descent anyway :-) | 15:03 |
| ricolin | like zuul v3 migrate?:) | 15:03 |
| diablo_rojo | I'm working with johnsom mentoring those NDSU students (though johnsom is doing most of the work) | 15:03 |
| gmann | anyways, we can discuss on list to work on in office hour | 15:03 |
| evrardjp | gmann: everything is :) I just hope that having something that matter a lot gives an incentive to come back :D | 15:03 |
| zaneb | evrardjp: that reminds me, we need to roll over the 2019 investment ops to 2020 | 15:03 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: correct | 15:03 |
| zaneb | are there any we need to prune? | 15:03 |
| evrardjp | technically they are all pruned, until someone propose it back to 2020 | 15:04 |
| evrardjp | again* | 15:04 |
| zaneb | are there any we need to not roll over? | 15:04 |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, I think we need smaller pieces of work than the investment opportunities. | 15:04 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: the way it is built was to ensure pruning. | 15:04 |
| gmann | we can propose one by one and see which one we can drop | 15:04 |
| johnsom | Yeah, we are having them add actual features to Octavia and following through with tests, CLI, SDK, and dashboard updates. It's not just "grunt" work, lol | 15:04 |
| evrardjp | So my understanding is that the community has no business opportunities for 2020 as of today. | 15:04 |
| gmann | yes | 15:05 |
| njohnston | I think the Designate opportunity at a minimum should roll over | 15:05 |
| ricolin | we should move to our last topic as we already running out of time, can we move this to office hour and ML too | 15:05 |
| gmann | need action item for that | 15:05 |
| gmann | ricolin^^ | 15:05 |
| ricolin | gmann, got it | 15:05 |
| ricolin | move on first | 15:05 |
| ricolin | #topic Dropping side projects: using golden signals | 15:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Dropping side projects: using golden signals (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:06 | |
| ttx | ohai | 15:06 |
| ricolin | ttx | 15:06 |
| gmann | that is TC assignment at start of every year | 15:06 |
| ttx | So we can probably discuss this in open discussion and close the meeting first | 15:06 |
| evrardjp | gmann: agreed. I will tackle this. | 15:06 |
| gmann | thanks | 15:06 |
| ricolin | can anyone help me to comes out with a nice action itemfor previous one?:) | 15:06 |
| ttx | My point is that it's difficult to close a project, because every time we find something unmaintained that almost nobody uses, someone volunteers to keep it up | 15:07 |
| evrardjp | because I don't believe we have considerably improved the community since 2019 :p | 15:07 |
| ricolin | losing words here:) | 15:07 |
| ttx | That volunteer should be encouraged to step up in more ... positive areas | 15:07 |
| ttx | so how do we look at good candidates for pruning | 15:07 |
| ttx | Contribution stats are not so great | 15:08 |
| ttx | since a project can be slow and totally maintained and useful and operational | 15:08 |
| ttx | I think we need to look at a combination of factors | 15:08 |
| evrardjp | they are a good signal of maintainance though | 15:08 |
| evrardjp | gates break regularily, so that + no contribution trigger a view of health | 15:08 |
| ttx | Starting with a golden signal -- no PTL nomination, no goal completion with no communication to the champion etc | 15:08 |
| fungi | missed releases | 15:09 |
| ttx | then if that "abandoned" project also has no user and no dependency... | 15:09 |
| ricolin | #action roll over the 2019 investment ops to 2020 | 15:09 |
| evrardjp | reduction of the amount of core reviewers is also a _warning_ sign (not a big red sign) | 15:09 |
| ttx | It becomes a very good candidate for being dropped from the release and the projectteams | 15:09 |
| evrardjp | ttx: agreed | 15:10 |
| gmann | we can start tag for each project like SIG and guidlines to move state like mentioned above | 15:10 |
| ricolin | I'm gonna end the meeting so we can keep this discussion going | 15:10 |
| evrardjp | ricolin: yeah sorry we mixed the topics at the end | 15:10 |
| ttx | We have a good list from gmann in http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-February/012310.html | 15:10 |
| ricolin | #endmeeting | 15:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ | channel logs http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/" | 15:10 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Feb 6 15:10:23 2020 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:10 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2020/tc.2020-02-06-14.00.html | 15:10 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2020/tc.2020-02-06-14.00.txt | 15:10 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2020/tc.2020-02-06-14.00.log.html | 15:10 |
| ttx | I quote: | 15:10 |
| ttx | "The OpenStack services have not merged the py2 drop patches: | 15:10 |
| ttx | NOTE: This was supposed to be completed by milestone-1 (Dec 13th, 19). | 15:10 |
| gmann | thanks ricolin for chair | 15:10 |
| ttx | " | 15:10 |
| evrardjp | thanks ricolin! | 15:10 |
| ttx | * Adjutant | 15:10 |
| ttx | * ec2-api | 15:10 |
| ttx | * Karbor | 15:10 |
| ttx | * Masakari | 15:10 |
| ttx | * Qinling | 15:10 |
| ricolin | gmann evrardjp , anytime | 15:10 |
| ttx | * Tricircle | 15:10 |
| gmann | ttx true, that is good list | 15:11 |
| gmann | ttx except ec2-api is merged now | 15:11 |
| ttx | Unless those have communicated one way or another with the champion (and I doubt they did) they constitute a good golden signal | 15:11 |
| ttx | good! | 15:11 |
| evrardjp | ttx: instead of targetting a few projects right now, should we use this to list the golden signals, and make it part of governance? | 15:11 |
| ttx | sure, I can propose something about "how we deprecate projects" | 15:12 |
| diablo_rojo | thanks for chairing ricolin :) | 15:12 |
| gmann | yeah that will be good and we can define the criteria for those list | 15:12 |
| evrardjp | ttx: that sounds good. I think that's very important to start doing this | 15:12 |
| gmann | and give one cycle deprecation phase if red signal bring up the maintainer. | 15:13 |
| ttx | ok will do | 15:13 |
| zaneb | ttx: fyi I had never heard of the term golden signal, which made this whole discussion pretty nonsensical until I looked it up | 15:13 |
| evrardjp | I think we need a good list of signals that can help us evaluate projects | 15:13 |
| ttx | Thanks all | 15:13 |
| gmann | ttx can we mark such project (in future after you define the criteria) in openstack map with RED color ? or it will be bad signal for openstack health ? | 15:14 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: oh yeah I assumed something maybe it's not the right assumption | 15:14 |
| ricolin | diablo_rojo, :) | 15:14 |
| zaneb | https://www.infoq.com/articles/monitoring-SRE-golden-signals/ for anyone else who was lost | 15:14 |
| evrardjp | duckduckgo made me land there too | 15:14 |
| njohnston | evrardjp: Would it make sense to formulate guidelines at the same time as we check on these projects - encountering the real situations these projects are in may help us be more informed as we suggest rules | 15:15 |
| evrardjp | njohnston: yes. I think I added that in the agenda of the next meeting already | 15:16 |
| gmann | njohnstoni added your name for V cycle goal driving things - https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-v-series-goals | 15:16 |
| gmann | njohnston | 15:16 |
| njohnston | evrardjp: thanks | 15:16 |
| njohnston | gmann: Thanks! | 15:16 |
| gmann | njohnston we will discuss on planning and how we can collect more ideas next week. | 15:17 |
| zaneb | evrardjp: ah, a fellow DDG user :) a lot of the other links are to some crook's get-rich-quick scheme. I checked Google and it surfaces the Google SRE book first, which I'm sure is a happy coincidence for them | 15:17 |
| * jungleboyj is glad I am not the only one who didn't know what a Golden Signal was. | 15:17 | |
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| evrardjp | zaneb: :D | 15:19 |
| njohnston | DDG++ | 15:19 |
| * gmann going back to py2 drop world. :( | 15:19 | |
| evrardjp | jungleboyj: yeah, better not confuse signal and shower. | 15:19 |
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| zaneb | inappropriate. | 15:20 |
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| evrardjp | correct. Using the latter would be inappropriate. | 15:20 |
| smcginnis | Oh boy. | 15:20 |
| njohnston | evrardjp: https://media0.giphy.com/media/xThtaaanmuFMt1lSk8/giphy.gif?cid=790b761194c4f95f8a52d891b8576cc72b48e89f5716e27e&rid=giphy.gif | 15:21 |
| evrardjp | I don't want to open any link right now. | 15:21 |
| jungleboyj | He he. | 15:21 |
| jroll | not to keep on the topic, but I feel obligated to mention googling "golden shower" is not going to be safe for work, for anyone that doesn't know what it means | 15:22 |
| jungleboyj | jroll: :-) | 15:23 |
| evrardjp | jroll: that's what I meant with my comment above. Thanks for clarifying. | 15:24 |
| njohnston | golden signals + waterfall development = https://media1.giphy.com/media/du3bmjEEgosWrbsX4Y/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611aa5b499b7e2bd3924da6528b774a43e9e36c466c&rid=giphy.gif | 15:24 |
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| njohnston | anything else left on the docket to revisit? | 15:26 |
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| evrardjp | nope | 15:29 |
| njohnston | Great, thanks! | 15:31 |
| zaneb | investment oppos for 2020? | 15:31 |
| ttx | zaneb: sorry, was referring to golden signals for monitoring, from Google SRE book: https://landing.google.com/sre/sre-book/chapters/monitoring-distributed-systems/#xref_monitoring_golden-signals | 15:33 |
| zaneb | yeah, I worked it out | 15:33 |
| zaneb | and then things quickly went downhill | 15:33 |
| ttx | yes, there is no escape from there | 15:33 |
| * jungleboyj is proud that I wasn't the one that sent it downhill. | 15:34 | |
| zaneb | but anyway, we shouldn't just use that term without explanation because it seems a lot of people are as clueless as I was | 15:34 |
| ttx | zaneb: yes it's a good point | 15:34 |
| zaneb | jungleboyj: high five o/ | 15:35 |
| ttx | My point was to discuss more generally how we remove projects, and propose the signals approach | 15:35 |
| ttx | but then there was no real time left | 15:35 |
| spotz | ricolin: I forwarded the logs to the UC members to read | 15:36 |
| zaneb | it's hard | 15:36 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: there is nothing to say in both cases, just that ppl should work on this, by proposing patches and reviewing. | 15:36 |
| evrardjp | I have taken the action item for investment opportunities | 15:37 |
| zaneb | we don't require projects to be a cross-company collaboration to join, so it's difficult to kick them out just because they are not | 15:37 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: would you want to do it from now on? | 15:37 |
| evrardjp | it sounds very hard and not intrusive | 15:37 |
| zaneb | and if failing to meet the community goals was the criterion then Glance would have been out by Queens | 15:38 |
| evrardjp | if it's the reduction of cores, I guess most of the projects can be out. | 15:39 |
| zaneb | yup | 15:39 |
| evrardjp | that proves the problem we have don't we? | 15:39 |
| ttx | zaneb: as I said, you can't remove a thing that has reverse dependencies. In that case teh signal should trigger a call for help instead of a suggestion for removal | 15:39 |
| gmann | not meet the goals but it should be no action on goals. if projects say invalid goal or will not work on that goal for xyz reason then it is ok. | 15:40 |
| ttx | The signal is just the start of the process, not the criterion | 15:40 |
| zaneb | gmann: I stand by my comment about Glance in light of what you just said ;) | 15:40 |
| ttx | We traditionally used the lack of activity as the "tell" that something was bad. I think that's a very bad "tell". | 15:41 |
| zaneb | I agree about that | 15:41 |
| ttx | As years of trying to remove ec2api has shown | 15:41 |
| ttx | 'time to review' would be a better metric probably. but I actually think incidents (missing releases, PTl elections, goals) are better "tells" | 15:42 |
| ttx | And the trick is that if we say "no volunteer for PTL, shoudl we just remove this project?" some good soul will volunteer to save it, while the best thing for the community might have been to let it die, if it has no user and nothing depends on it | 15:43 |
| njohnston | So the Neutron community is about to kick neutron-fwaas out of the stadium. The process we followed was to look at low contribution/review metrics and inability to meet community goals, followed by talking to all the cores and see that zero were able/willing to work on the project, followed by "looking for a new owner" emails. | 15:44 |
| njohnston | Since nobody has volunteered to own it, it's out. | 15:44 |
| njohnston | (or will be in a week or so when we hit U-2) | 15:44 |
| ttx | njohnston: I prefer asking "is anyone using this and willing to put the effort to help" rather than "new owner" but yes, that's the spirit | 15:45 |
| zaneb | that's a good process, but ttx's point is that when we do that to a whole project, somebody *always* volunteers | 15:45 |
| evrardjp | yeah | 15:45 |
| spotz | ttx If there are no dependencies couldn't you just say because there is no candidate we are reetiring xyz? | 15:45 |
| evrardjp | and it's the problem | 15:45 |
| zaneb | and then we're ~always back in the same situation 6 months later | 15:45 |
| njohnston | Or I should say, we are starting the process of kicking it out: marking it deprecated, then removing in the next cycle. (sorry to be glib) | 15:45 |
| ttx | zaneb: and frankly it would be better to convince those good souls that there are other areas in need of more urgent help and where their impact will be more noticed | 15:46 |
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| ttx | It's just that we don;t say that | 15:46 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: I would like us to arrive to a point we can even stop still active projects, because it would help on our focus | 15:46 |
| ttx | We say "OMG this has no PTL, are wer going to be forced to remove it?" | 15:46 |
| zaneb | ttx: I don't think they're doing it to be 'good souls', I think they're people who were using it and don't want it to die | 15:46 |
| evrardjp | I agree with zaneb | 15:46 |
| ttx | zaneb: well... in some cases, clearly no | 15:46 |
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| evrardjp | though there are some good cases | 15:47 |
| evrardjp | good souls cases* | 15:47 |
| zaneb | such as? | 15:47 |
| ttx | Like RongZhu has been volunteering to save a bunch | 15:47 |
| * evrardjp opens the MLs threads | 15:47 | |
| ttx | just a sec, collecting ecamples | 15:48 |
| ttx | (Murano, Solum, Telemetry) | 15:48 |
| ttx | Trinh Nguyen saving Searchlight is another good example of good soul volunteering | 15:49 |
| ttx | and IIRC he had saved Telemetry as well before | 15:50 |
| ttx | (I may be confused tho) | 15:50 |
| zaneb | plenty of people are using Telemetry, even though it is short on maintainers | 15:50 |
| ttx | or was it Trove | 15:51 |
| zaneb | I do find it hard to believe that anyone anywhere has ever used Solum, or is still using Murano | 15:51 |
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| ttx | zaneb: right, precisely my point. Maybe RongZhu is, but I suspect he just volunteered because we asked | 15:51 |
| ttx | sinking energy into a dead end | 15:52 |
| gmann | I doubt on Searchlight working state (integration with openstack projects ) as i tried to add its first integrated test job and it was failing for many issues while doing IPv6 job for it. | 15:52 |
| ttx | The only thing I managed to actively kill was the AppCatalog, because it was an embarassment. For everything else, I backed out after a good soul explained to me they would work more on it/ | 15:54 |
| evrardjp | all of this is great input, is it enough to start writing something in governance? | 15:54 |
| ttx | I can draft something, unless someone really wants it | 15:54 |
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| tosky | diablo_rojo: question about https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/selected/ussuri/project-ptl-and-contrib-docs.html - how much can each project tune the generated CONTRIBUTING.rst file? | 16:37 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/ideas master: Adding first jobs for ideas repo https://review.opendev.org/706320 | 16:53 |
| jroll | tosky: looking at the template, there isn't much there. I'd think projects are expected to tune that file | 16:56 |
| diablo_rojo | tosky, im fine with adding amending as much as you want. The template was just a bare minimum/starting point | 16:56 |
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| zaneb | tosky: not that it's not actually the CONTRIBUTING.rst file that is the template, it's doc/source/contributor/contributing.rst | 16:59 |
| tosky | diablo_rojo, jroll : thanks; Sahara has already a CONTRIBUTING.rst file which contains most of the details, but some of them may be added to the new one | 17:00 |
| tosky | uhm | 17:00 |
| zaneb | CONTRIBUTING.rst should not be changed. doc/source/contributor/contributing.rst should be customised for each project based on the template AIUI | 17:00 |
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| tosky | thanks, I read the goal incorrectly then | 17:01 |
| zaneb | tosky: no, the goal text needs to be updated based on what happened on the review https://review.opendev.org/696001 | 17:01 |
| zaneb | diablo_rojo__: ^ | 17:02 |
| jroll | zaneb: aha, good catch | 17:03 |
| tosky | uhm, ok; I guess than the content of the standalone CONTRIBUTING.rst file could be then replaced with a link to the documentation | 17:04 |
| tosky | to avoid duplication | 17:04 |
| tosky | (namely this one https://opendev.org/openstack/sahara/src/branch/master/CONTRIBUTING.rst ) | 17:05 |
| zaneb | no it can't, because CONTRIBUTING.rst is the thing that GitHub sticks in your face when you open a pull request. so it's important that the content be 90% DO NOT OPEN A PULL REQUEST | 17:07 |
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| zaneb | it should have a link to the docs though | 17:08 |
| zaneb | we should update the cookiecutter template to do that | 17:08 |
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| gmann | yeah, CONTRIBUTING.rst at top level needs to tell about 1. NO PR 2. how we contribute in openstack and then link to doc/source/contributor/contributing.rst for detail about 'what all you can contribute in this repo' | 17:15 |
| zaneb | gmann++ | 17:16 |
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| gmann | diablo_rojo__ along with updating it clearly in goal doc, it will be good if we can merge this for one repo and then provide that as example. | 17:20 |
| tosky | zaneb: sure, it can contain "DO NOT OPEN A PULL REQUEST" and then link to the proper documentation for all the other details | 17:31 |
| tosky | gmann: part of 2. is already covered by the template | 17:31 |
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| gmann | it can still have a one line saying "OpenStack use Gerrit" and then link to template which has detail text on workflow of contribution as general and project wise info. | 17:44 |
| fungi | it's also possible to have doc/source/contributor/contributing.rst do a ".. include:: ../../CONTRIBUTING.rst" | 18:09 |
| fungi | that way your CONTRIBUTING.rst is still easily spotted when someone browses the repo, but it also gets incorporated verbatim into your built documentation without any duplication of source material | 18:10 |
| fungi | i guess it would be ../../../CONTRIBUTING.rst in that include | 18:10 |
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| gmann | +1. that way we can cover users of both files without duplication | 18:20 |
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