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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Introduce 2020 upstream investment opportunities. https://review.opendev.org/707120 | 08:16 |
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| zaneb | fungi: I really think we are making a mistake with https://review.opendev.org/708511 | 15:37 |
| smcginnis | zaneb: Sorry, I completely missed your commments on there. | 15:41 |
| zaneb | just saw that :D | 15:41 |
| smcginnis | Feel free to revert. I do actually agree with what you're saying there. | 15:42 |
| fungi | if the important information you refer to appears in the first paragraph then i think folks are just as likely to read it as if it's the only paragraph | 15:42 |
| zaneb | fungi: I don't think that's how folks work | 15:43 |
| fungi | your assertion is that if they see there's a lot of information there, then they'll read none of it? that's remarkably cynical | 15:43 |
| zaneb | yes, and yes. but is it inaccurate? | 15:46 |
| zaneb | when was the last time you read an EULA? | 15:46 |
| smcginnis | fungi might be the one person I would expect to answer that with a fairly recent response. :D | 15:47 |
| zaneb | fungi might be the one person who has never even encountered one | 15:48 |
| fungi | i do read software licenses, but i understand i'm generally brain-damaged in that regard | 15:49 |
| fungi | it seems like we should be able to highlight the relevant important paragraph at the top in a note:: type admonition to draw the eye to it (provides attention-getting indentation in plain-text view and an alternate background color in rendered rst/html) | 15:51 |
| zaneb | people *especially* don't read those little note boxes. they look like ads. eyes float right over them without even seeing | 15:53 |
| fungi | but also this is the cookiecutter template. if new projects are going to mostly refer back to the contributor guide for common tasks then the initial CONTRIBUTING.rst is likely to be small anyway. as their community grows in complexity they can of course make the decision to stick some content in the doc/source/contributor/contributing.rst file which isn't covered by the include (or split them entirely) | 15:53 |
| fungi | anyway, by your logic, it sounds like most potential contributors aren't going to read no matter how much or how little information we put in front of them. they probably also aren't going to read our responses on their changes if they do figure out how to send in a patch either | 15:54 |
| zaneb | the reason we're talking about the cookiecutter is that we intend to align every project with this by a community goal due by the end of this cycle | 15:55 |
| zaneb | despite the fact that halfway through the cycle we still can't agree on what we want people to do :( | 15:55 |
| fungi | except we're not aligning them because we're still allowing them to document their own team-specific workflows | 15:55 |
| fungi | if we really were "aligning" them then we could get them all to use one consistent CONTRIBUTING.rst file which refers back to the central contributor guide, and then stop with the extra content in doc/source/contributor/... | 15:58 |
| zaneb | we have that now! it's great! we just wanted to add a place to document stuff like PTL duties. but now that place is going to be in CONTRIBUTING.rst where it gets shoved in people's faces when they're just trying to open a pull request | 16:00 |
| fungi | yeah, but moving all the instructions on how/where to propose patches out of the CONTRIBUTING.rst file makes that harder | 16:01 |
| zaneb | I don't understand, we're not moving anything out. in e.g. https://review.opendev.org/708672 CONTRIBUTING.rst stays exactly the same as it has always been and just adds a link to the project-specific docs | 16:02 |
| zaneb | in addition to the general openstack contribution docs that were already linked | 16:03 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance-sigs master: Merge Auto-scaling SIG and Self-healing SIG https://review.opendev.org/708381 | 16:04 |
| fungi | having some extra information in doc/source/contributor/contributing.rst which isn't in CONTRIBUTING.rst isn't my main concern (i'm not as cynical as you on the risk of putting it all in CONTRIBUTING.rst but that's a separate issue), my problem was with https://review.opendev.org/707735 | 16:09 |
| fungi | e.g., removing things like "pull requests should not be submitted through github" from the CONTRIBUTING.rst file | 16:09 |
| fungi | and expecting people to dig up some other file by reference to discover that. because i *am* of the opinion that folks are even less likely to go find additional documents you refer to than they are to read the information you put in front of them | 16:11 |
| zaneb | right, yeah, I hadn't reviewed that patchset https://review.opendev.org/#/c/707735/2/CONTRIBUTING.rst but I wouldn't have agreed with it either | 16:15 |
| fungi | my position on it (and i'm not even a core reviewer on that repo so take my -1 with whatever degree of weight you like) is that CONTRIBUTING.rst should at least directly contain text explaining the things we think people are likely to get wrong when trying to figure out how to submit a patch, file a bug or contact the maintainers | 16:19 |
| fungi | secondarily, i feel like duplicating content between CONTRIBUTING.rst and another document in the repo risks divergence over time, so CONTRIBUTING.rst should get transcluded within it instead of duplicated | 16:21 |
| zaneb | that's a fair point, but the only thing that's really duplicated is the bug tracker link | 16:23 |
| fungi | tertiarily and leastly, i think having contributor information split between different files is messy unless the topics they cover are significantly divergent and the prose required for them is massive enough to warrant different pages of text entirely | 16:23 |
| jroll | FWIW, I think including content in a cookiecutter repo will also cause divergence over time, unless we have bots updating the older repos | 16:25 |
| jroll | (and people merging said updates) | 16:26 |
| fungi | yep, this is basically the issue we've had with any file in the cookiecutter repos | 16:27 |
| fungi | every project contains (some variation on) cookiecutter files contemporary with when the project was created | 16:27 |
| jroll | ergo, a link to a central doc makes sense to me | 16:27 |
| fungi | as for me, but there's still important information people won't follow that link to find out | 16:28 |
| jroll | yeah, fair point | 16:29 |
| zaneb | to be fair, one advantage of having a project-wide goal is that we get to update everyone's cookiecutter-supplied doc | 16:29 |
| jroll | once :) | 16:29 |
| zaneb | yes :) | 16:29 |
| fungi | in particular, things you are likely to want to do with a copy of the source code (the repositories on github and elsewhere are read-only mirrors, if you want to propose a patch don't open a pull request instead read this, if you want to report a bug don't open a github issue instead go here, if you want to contact the maintainers don't use a github group message go here...) | 16:30 |
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| gmann | zaneb: what if we highlight those 2 line in bold that can have clear attention from reader, better than from current CONTRIBUTING.rst - https://review.opendev.org/#/c/708511/2 | 17:25 |
| zaneb | gmann: sorry, uploaded a new patch before I saw your comments on there | 17:27 |
| gmann | either approach works for me. 1. BODLing the 2 line in modified CONTRIBUTING.rst havign all details or 2. zaneb approach of keeping detail separate and link in CONTRIBUTING.rst + my opinion of clearing CONTRIBUTING.rst more | 17:27 |
| zaneb | gmann: so I changed it to have a link to opendev at the very top, followed by the line about ignoring PRs. what do you think of that? We could bold it as well | 17:29 |
| * diablo_rojo tries to catch up with scrollback but is also double meeting-ing | 17:29 | |
| zaneb | diablo_rojo: you're gonna wish you hadn't | 17:29 |
| zaneb | ;) | 17:29 |
| gmann | zaneb: i think we can remove L1-L25 with those 2 liner and then link - https://review.opendev.org/#/c/708672/2/%257B%257Bcookiecutter.repo_name%257D%257D/CONTRIBUTING.rst | 17:31 |
| gmann | my point was those infra manual, bug tracker and workflow link are duplicating of details in doc/source/contributing.rst | 17:31 |
| zaneb | gmann: I think we need the bug tracker thing because people try to open issues on GitHub as well | 17:32 |
| gmann | zaneb: ok, or we can say 'no Github issue' also. because anyway users have to go to detail doc to learn about gerrit things. | 17:33 |
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| zaneb | I'm trying to address fungi's (valid) objection that we should also consider the audience of people just doing "cat CONTRIBUTING.rst" | 17:36 |
| fungi | i consider that to be the primary purpose of having a shouty-named file in the top level of a source tree | 17:38 |
| fungi | like README or LICENSE | 17:38 |
| diablo_rojo | zaneb, you are correct. I'm like 1/3 of the way through and feel a bit dizzy. | 17:38 |
| fungi | diablo_rojo: take your time, it'll keep | 17:39 |
| diablo_rojo | zaneb, so. You dont like the patch that got merged because it doesn't loudly proclaim that we don't yell about not using github at the top of CONTRIBUTING.rst? | 17:39 |
| diablo_rojo | Or have I oversimiplified? | 17:39 |
| diablo_rojo | fungi, will it keep till happy hour? ;) | 17:40 |
| zaneb | fungi: that's fair, but when other tools (like GitHub) start treating those as special then you also have to consider how audiences who arrive through that tool will see it | 17:40 |
| zaneb | which is hard, because writing for different audiences is hard | 17:40 |
| fungi | yep, i agree | 17:40 |
| zaneb | diablo_rojo: tl;dr I think we should do this: https://review.opendev.org/#/c/708672/2 (or something like it, pending any feedback from fungi) | 17:41 |
| fungi | she and i are in the same two-day-long meeting, but i'll definitely stick it on my priority list | 17:42 |
| diablo_rojo | My general thoughts: I dont care where all the template lives, but I think everything should be in one place because we have a real problem with duplication. | 17:42 |
| diablo_rojo | zaneb, I am largely fine with that patch, though I prefer the state of things right now with it all being in CONTRIBUTING.rst and just being connected to the other file. The one actual problem I have with that patch is that we need to link to the contributor guide and NOT the infra manual since that is being migrated out of TC oversight and going to be opendev specific..Or if we do want to link to it we also need the contributor guide and | 17:44 |
| diablo_rojo | then this page starts to get lengthy which I think was your concern in the first place. | 17:44 |
| * diablo_rojo will go put all this on the review now | 17:45 | |
| diablo_rojo | well maybe not now | 17:45 |
| diablo_rojo | but before the end of the day. | 17:45 |
| gmann | in that case, making two line Bold in starting of CONTRIBUTING.rst(one having all info) can solve zaneb concern of having everything in one file make it unreadable. but zaneb to validate :) | 17:47 |
| fungi | well, the infra manual is going to be less openstack-specific, so it will be "opendev-general" you might say | 17:48 |
| gmann | i agree to link to contributor guide instead of infra manual. diablo_rojo i think we have those diagrams(infra manual and workflow) in contributing guide ? | 17:48 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, I am totally fine to put at the very top of CONTRIBUTING.rst (as it is right now) DONE USE GITHUB FOR PRs WE USE GERRIT. | 17:48 |
| diablo_rojo | fungi, correct. | 17:48 |
| gmann | fungi: yeah or i thought i can be deleted in favor of ownership to contributor guide etc | 17:49 |
| diablo_rojo | I see the general flow of 'getting started' as being the opendev docs (nee infra-manual), then the contrib guide (which will be general openstack stuff) and then the project specific docs | 17:49 |
| gmann | diablo_rojo: i cannot find the gerrit workflow in contributor guide. did we miss ? | 17:49 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, havent migrated that over, but it is a more opendev specific thing that will continue to live in the infra manual | 17:50 |
| diablo_rojo | the contributor guide should mention the opendev docs (infra manual) and then go on to talk about the openstack general stuff | 17:50 |
| fungi | gmann: there's https://docs.openstack.org/contributors/common/setup-gerrit.html#preparing-to-send-a-review | 17:51 |
| gmann | it has all info we have in contributor guide now like account setup to code review etc- https://docs.openstack.org/infra/manual/developers.html | 17:52 |
| diablo_rojo | Once the governance change to move the infra manual out lands I think both it and the contributor guide will need some changes to clean up the deduplication and cross link and what not. | 17:53 |
| gmann | fungi: i mean the diagram in starting which is very helpful for newby - https://docs.openstack.org/infra/manual/developers.html | 17:53 |
| fungi | sure, openstack's patch submission workflow is the opendev workflow, so having the openstack contributor guide refer to the opendev manual's section on gerrit code review would make sense | 17:54 |
| diablo_rojo | +2 that would be my vision | 17:54 |
| fungi | or find a way to transclude content into it without duplicating it in the contributor guide repo | 17:54 |
| diablo_rojo | Yeah that works too. If it gets updated at the source it will update there too | 17:55 |
| gmann | opendev workflow etc make sense. | 17:55 |
| zaneb | I was halfway through editing the patch to link to the openstack contrib guide when I actually looked at it and... there's no obvious entry point like there is with the opendev one | 17:58 |
| zaneb | if we're catching someone halfway through opening a pull request, we can't be like "don't do that, read this book instead" | 17:58 |
| fungi | yeah, i think the in-flux situation with the contributor guide complicates this a little at the moment | 18:00 |
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| diablo_rojo | zaneb, I think if you are concerned about where in the process we are catching them I would just link to the specific section of the contrib guide about setting up gerrit | 18:00 |
| gmann | zaneb: we can have entry point once migration of infra manual to opendev and updates to contributor guide are done | 18:00 |
| diablo_rojo | What gmann says works too. | 18:01 |
| diablo_rojo | Either way I think we are going to need to update that link everywhere once the docs are all cleaned up and sorted correctly. | 18:01 |
| gmann | diablo_rojo: fungi i think very first page of contributor guide having opendev flow (diagram) is needed otherwise zaneb concern of ''read this book instead" is very valid | 18:02 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, yeah I get that. | 18:02 |
| diablo_rojo | No matter what, people are going to need to read to effectively contribute. | 18:02 |
| zaneb | gmann: that sounds promising. when do we expect that to be done? | 18:03 |
| gmann | i do not know, may be fungi or diablo_rojo can answer | 18:03 |
| diablo_rojo | And no matter what approach we take there will be people that don't follow the logical path that we landed on because their logic is different. | 18:03 |
| diablo_rojo | zaneb, the moving opendev out of the TC governance patch needs to land. Then we need to remove all the openstack specific stuff from the infra manual (which will eventually be JUST opendev). | 18:04 |
| diablo_rojo | The openstack specific stuff will live in the contributor guide | 18:04 |
| diablo_rojo | and the contributor guide will link to various parts of the opendev docs | 18:04 |
| fungi | but *could* instead build in content pulled from opendev's manual sources if linking away to another site is seen as a problem | 18:08 |
| diablo_rojo | Yes. That. | 18:08 |
| diablo_rojo | Definitely cool with that. | 18:08 |
| fungi | (one of the benefits of how we're publishing both with a cross-project-aware ci system) | 18:08 |
| * diablo_rojo admits to not know exactly how that would work | 18:08 | |
| fungi | the ugly sledge hammer would be to have zuul checkout both repos and then copy (parts of?) files from one into the other before invoking sphinx | 18:09 |
| diablo_rojo | Oof. | 18:09 |
| fungi | that would be fairly simple, there are almost certainly far more elegant ways though | 18:10 |
| diablo_rojo | If thats the only way of doing it.. I think I'd rather link? But am open to opinions. | 18:10 |
| fungi | i'm sure that's not the only way, just the first thing which came to mind (i'm not super deep in sphinx know-how) | 18:11 |
| diablo_rojo | fungi, me neither, but it definitely seems like a thing | 18:11 |
| gmann | on goal side, if we keep infra manual in 708672 approach then we have to update it again once migration to opendev happen OR if we remove the infra manula then we do not have entry point in contributor guide which is same issue in modified CONTRIBUTING.rst. | 18:16 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, I think either way we will need to update the link everywhere..I guess we can keep it as the infra manual now if zaneb feels strongly about not linking to the contrib guide. | 18:17 |
| zaneb | will there be a redirect once the infra manual moves? | 18:18 |
| gmann | in later approach it will be just contributor guide update not all CONTRIBUTING.rst on each repo. but that give complex doc to read to understand the workflow. | 18:19 |
| fungi | there will be redirects from the old infra manual url to the new one, but that's not even something we've talked heavily about moving yet. the current "move" is about putting the git repository under opendev's governance instead of openstack's | 18:20 |
| gmann | or if we link the current infra manual in contributor guide introduction.html then we can keep entry point (current infra manual and later updatae to opendev one) - https://docs.openstack.org/contributors/code-and-documentation/introduction.html | 18:20 |
| fungi | how it gets published is a conversation we can have after the governance change is settled | 18:21 |
| gmann | that way we can avoid infra manual links from CONTRIBUTING.rst and update only contributor guide once migration happen. | 18:21 |
| diablo_rojo | I'm all for less updates across all the repos. | 18:22 |
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| openstackgerrit | Nate Johnston proposed openstack/governance master: Add QA upstream contribution opportunity https://review.opendev.org/706637 | 18:32 |
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| jungleboyj | zaneb: Finally getting some bandwidth to respond to this: https://review.opendev.org/#/c/698582/2/doc/source/user_survey/analysis-12-2019.rst | 19:23 |
| jungleboyj | zaneb: Nevermind. Found where we have the number of people who report using the different projects. | 19:36 |
| jungleboyj | Though this graph is impossible to read for a color blind person. | 19:38 |
| jungleboyj | diablo_rojo: Do you know who might have the raw numbers for how many respondents reporting each service? | 19:38 |
| fungi | aprice would, but she's ni an all-day meeting currently | 19:40 |
| fungi | it may also be in the analytics interface... checking | 19:40 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: Cool. Thanks for looking. | 19:41 |
| fungi | at https://www.openstack.org/analytics if you click on deployments at the left, the charts there have percentages but so crowded it's basically unreadable | 19:43 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: Yep, that was what I was looking at and if you zoom in it is no better. | 19:43 |
| jungleboyj | The colors used are also not friendly to a Red/Green color blind person. They all look grey to me. | 19:43 |
| aprice | jungleboyj: yeah, we can get that data. are you looking for particular projects or all? and when do you need? | 19:44 |
| aprice | that is my least favorite chart lol | 19:44 |
| jungleboyj | aprice: Awesome. All of them please. If it is possible by End of the Week that would be great, but whenever you can is awesome. | 19:45 |
| fungi | i'm not color-blind (i don't think) and the colors there are sandwiched so close together they still look like mud | 19:45 |
| aprice | jungleboyj: eow is possible. will likely be friday since i have all day meetings today and tomorrow, but feel free to ping me if you dont hear from me | 19:45 |
| jungleboyj | aprice: Sounds good. Thanks for the help! | 19:45 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: Thanks for the pointer! | 19:45 |
| aprice | of course! | 19:45 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: Ok, good to know it isn't just me. | 19:46 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: It is amazing how many we interfaces put a small think red line around missed or bad input. I can't see that. I just sit there wondering why the heck the form isn't processing. | 19:47 |
| fungi | jungleboyj: just think, if you were chinese (and not color blind) you'd think the red outline was telling you everything's just peachy | 19:48 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 19:49 |
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| smcginnis | Some good news (cc mugsie): https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/02/19/dot_org_sale_isoc_advice/ | 21:45 |
| * fungi cheers while his cats stare at him strangely | 21:46 | |
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