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| gmann | o/ | 13:09 |
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| jungleboyj | o/ | 13:16 |
| jungleboyj | Just saw that IRCCloud is down. :-( | 13:17 |
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| njohnston | o/ | 13:23 |
| jungleboyj | Wonder how many people are off because of IRCCloud outage. | 13:24 |
| gmann | jungleboyj there are always outage with irccloud :) | 13:30 |
| jungleboyj | gmann, I haven't had that many. Only a couple in the 3 years I have been using it. | 13:40 |
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| smcginnis | I wonder if we should have an OpenStack-wide discussion or common guidelines around https://review.opendev.org/#/c/740013/ | 19:08 |
| fungi | this is basically how it's happened in the past, one or two interested projects take the lead and work toward something, then out of those efforts emerges a standard which other projects can follow | 19:13 |
| fungi | usually coming up with guidelines before anyone's attempted to follow them has resulted in design by committee madness | 19:14 |
| smcginnis | True. | 19:14 |
| smcginnis | I just worry about common conventions. Like that version of the patch recommends changing blacklist to allowlist, which is conceptually completely opposite of what everyone else is tending to do. | 19:15 |
| smcginnis | So avoiding things like that is my main concern. Having some kind of common "here are some alternatives we recommend, you decide what is right for your project and context" would help. | 19:15 |
| fungi | well, the actual implementations weshay linked in his e-mail are using "skiplist" and "skipped" | 19:15 |
| fungi | problem is, words have multiple meanings (i mean yes that's also the core problem in this case but beyond that), so what words are appropriate replacements will depend highly on context | 19:17 |
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| fungi | in some cases "blacklist" is more appropriately replaced by "block" and in others "skip" and in still others "disallow" and so on | 19:17 |
| fungi | ultimately, i think the best a spec like that can provide is an array of suggestions, but the actual implementations will be usage-specific | 19:18 |
| smcginnis | Hence my last comment above. | 19:18 |
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| fungi | i expect bogdan's prose there was just missing some words. i doubt he literally meant replacing "blacklist" with "allowlist" makes sense. replacing "whitelist" with "allowlist" might or replacing "blacklist" with "denylist" | 19:21 |
| gmann | whitelists might be less-common but blacklist is very commonly known and used word. | 19:27 |
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| fungi | sure, but there is interest at least from some of our community in avoiding it where possible | 19:30 |
| smcginnis | I can provide a list of other communities that are actively working on it too. | 19:31 |
| tosky | I'd like to point out allow/deny<foo> is commonly used too (hosts.allow/hosts.deny) | 19:31 |
| fungi | yep, and some which have already done | 19:31 |
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| gmann | for internal code we can do but public interfaces is much difficult or should-not-change, like most of the testing tools use black*list* for excluding tests for loading/run/log etc | 19:32 |
| fungi | tosky: sure, in contexts where things are being allowed and denied they are commonly used. blacklist and whitelist are used in other situations where things are not allowed and denied though (they may be included and elided, or used and unused, or applied and skipped, or...) | 19:32 |
| fungi | gmann: everything *can* be changed, but i agree that api backward compatibility is important and changes there are not at all low-hanging fruit | 19:33 |
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| gmann | i mean change-without-break :) | 19:34 |
| fungi | and would require multiple cycles of deprecation most likely | 19:34 |
| fungi | they could still be changed, but it would not be easy nor immediate | 19:34 |
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| gmann | tempest has lot of deprecated decorator/method and we thought of removing that but it break lot of users/plugins so not worth to do | 19:35 |
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| fungi | i also think that marking those terms as deprecated is still useful, even if their usage can't be removed for a very long time due to needing to maintain backward compatibility | 19:35 |
| gmann | fungi: believe me, deprecation things for these kind of changes does not work in most case and end up breaking now so blame that you keep breaking us and then fix. very less usage move to new things during deprecation phase. | 19:37 |
| fungi | why would deprecation break anything? | 19:37 |
| gmann | i mean when you remove the things after deprecation | 19:38 |
| fungi | removing support for api methods of course breaks things, but simply marking/documenting as deprecation doesn'y | 19:38 |
| fungi | doesn't | 19:38 |
| fungi | that's literally what i mean, we can say they're deprecated, introduce replacements, but not actually remove them, and that's still useful | 19:39 |
| gmann | Tempest is good example of trying such improvement and called as always-breaking-users even we are changes internal things(but those were used as external). | 19:39 |
| gmann | fungi: yeah that is how we did in tempest also. that is better | 19:39 |
| fungi | e.g. "don't use the /blacklist method, this has been replaced by /denylist" but then still leave in all the plumbing for /blacklist and still test that it works | 19:40 |
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| fungi | (i acknowledge that it does increase the test surface area) | 19:40 |
| gmann | but honestly saying these master/slave and other renaming stuff like blacklist things for me is not much valuable then effort they need. Those are just code name not English as language names. we should not translate code things into English as standard language/convention grammar etc. as long as it does not hurt any culture or not abusing word its fine :) | 19:43 |
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| gmann | but may be its just me. | 19:45 |
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| fungi | i've struggled with this dilemma too, and i understand | 19:52 |
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| fungi | the upshot of it is that there are people who are made uncomfortable or even offended by these words, regardless of their usage context, etymology, multiple meanings and so on... we should't deny that they feel whatever they feel, and if enough people are uncomfortable then making changes may be warranted | 19:54 |
| fungi | us knowing why certain words were chosen and that they were not intended to be taken in a certain way doesn't prevent people from feeling whatever they're going to feel when they encounter them | 19:55 |
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| fungi | and it would be better to try to avoid making someone feel bad than to have to explain to them why they shouldn't feel bad | 19:56 |
| gmann | humm, those are fair point but that is also true that people uncomfortable on changing the existing are not counted or spoken enough :) | 19:57 |
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| fungi | well, people who are made uncomfortable by software changing are going to have a hard time in openstack regardless ;) | 20:01 |
| gmann | hehe, especially our API users. | 20:02 |
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