Thursday, 2021-01-07

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openstackgerritReason li proposed openstack/election master: remove unicode from code  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/election/+/76965303:18
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ricolino/08:08
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openstackgerritReason li proposed openstack/governance-sigs master: remove unicode from code  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance-sigs/+/76968608:35
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openstackgerritReason li proposed openstack/governance-website master: remove unicode from code  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance-website/+/76969109:35
openstackgerritHervé Beraud proposed openstack/governance master: Add doc/requirements  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/76969609:52
openstackgerritHervé Beraud proposed openstack/governance-sigs master: Add doc/requirements  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance-sigs/+/76970210:24
openstackgerritHervé Beraud proposed openstack/governance-website master: Add doc/requirements  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance-website/+/76970310:29
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gmanno/15:01
belmoreirao/15:02
diablo_rojoo/15:02
gmannmnaser: you there? meeting time.15:02
jungleboyjo/15:02
* mnaser is back to back since 8:30 am15:03
mnasersorry!15:03
mnaser#startmeeting tc15:03
openstackMeeting started Thu Jan  7 15:03:14 2021 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mnaser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"15:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'15:03
mnaser#topic rollcall15:03
diablo_rojoo/15:03
*** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: tc)"15:03
gmanno/15:03
mnasero/15:03
jungleboyjo/15:03
belmoreirao/15:03
mnaserhappy new year everyone :D15:03
gmannhappy new year :)15:03
jungleboyjHappy New Year!15:03
belmoreirahappy new year!!!15:03
mnaserhope y'all had a good one comfy from home :)15:04
mnaseri count 5 people right15:04
* evrardjp lurks and therefore doesn't count15:05
mnaseraww15:06
mnaserokay well i guess no one corrected my math, so we're good :p15:06
dansmithgah, sorry15:06
mnasero/15:06
mnaser#topic Follow up on past action items15:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Follow up on past action items (Meeting topic: tc)"15:06
dansmithoh, mnaser was late too, I feel better15:06
evrardjp:)15:06
mnaser#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2020/tc.2020-12-17-15.00.html15:06
mnasermnaser send out email about skipping both upcoming meetings <= done, we all decided xmas and nye wasnt the best time to meet :-)15:06
mnasermnaser write a proposed goal for X about stabilization/cooldown <= that didn't start yet, but there's a topic discussing that later today, so i'll keep that for now15:07
mnaserdiablo_rojo complete retirement of karbor15:07
mnaseri think we had a few patches pending mermge or something along those lines? :>15:08
ricolino/15:08
ricolinsorry I'm late15:08
mnasero/ ricolin15:08
mnaseri guess there is still a few patches left - https://review.opendev.org/q/topic:retire-karbor+is:open15:09
mnaserill keep it as an action item for next week15:09
mnaser#action diablo_rojo complete retirement of karbor15:09
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diablo_rojo_phon+215:10
diablo_rojo_phonTons of progress, but not done yet15:10
mnasernext up was diablo_rojo reach out to SIGs/ML and start auditing states of SIGs -- i think we have that on the agenda, so put it aside for now15:10
mnasermnaser drop X cycle goal selection start from agenda <= done15:10
mnasergmann continue to audit tags + outreach to community to apply for them15:10
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gmannnot much update on this but we have this in agenda where we can talk on this15:11
mnaseryep, sounds good15:11
mnasermnaser drop X cycle release name vote recording AND mnaser remove centos 8 topic from upcoming agenda <= both done15:11
mnasercool so15:11
mnaser#topic Write a proposed goal for X about stabilization/cooldown (mnaser)15:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Write a proposed goal for X about stabilization/cooldown (mnaser) (Meeting topic: tc)"15:11
mnaseri think i should find the mailing list post but what we had discussed was the idea of having a goal of 'stabilization'15:12
mnaserwe've had community goals over and over again15:12
jungleboyj++15:12
mnaserso the idea was 'its a rough year, we've been doing this for a while, the goal is do whatever you want to do to improve the software (and share if you want), or do nothing, and that's ok"15:12
gmann+115:12
mnaseri didn't get thaaat much response to the ML post at the time if i ir emember15:12
mnaser#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-December/019379.html15:13
jungleboyjmnaser:  I don't think there were any objections.  :-)15:13
gmannyeah15:13
gmannwe want to document that or just 'no goal' and ML is ok?15:13
dansmithso,15:13
dansmiththis is just no goals this time, right?15:13
gmannyeah for X cycle15:14
mnaseryeah, i think we'll have a no goal goal :-p15:14
jungleboyjRight.15:14
dansmithyou're not proposing "add fewer features" or "a goal of stabilizing over any other activity"15:14
mnasercorrect, that's a good point15:14
mnaseri think stabilization of our sanity more than it is of the code15:14
dansmithokay, I think it's important to point that out and not say "everybody stop with the features this cycle:15:14
jungleboyjWe should make sure to call that out.15:14
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dansmithbecause we've discussed that before, but we can't align everyone's schedules so it's not popular15:14
mnaseri agree15:15
belmoreira+115:15
gmannagree15:15
ricolin+115:15
mnaser#action mnaser submit a patch to officially list no community goals for X cycle15:16
mnaseri think the language is key, thanks for pointing that out dansmith15:16
jungleboyj++15:16
mnaseri guess we can do all the voting and vetting in gerrit, unless there's something we can quickly discuss15:16
gmann+1, having doc describing this will be helpful for future ref also15:16
mnaserok cool15:17
mnaser#topic Audit SIG list and chairs (diablo_rojo)15:18
*** openstack changes topic to "Audit SIG list and chairs (diablo_rojo) (Meeting topic: tc)"15:18
mnaserping diablo_rojo_phon :)15:18
diablo_rojo_phonYes sorry my laptop is doing a firmware update out of nowhere.15:19
diablo_rojo_phonSo, I haven't made much progress on this, other than deciding to do the coordination via discuss list rather than reaching out to the listed chairs directly.15:19
mnaserno worries -- plus that item has been there over the holidays so not exactly the best timing15:20
mnaserwe can keep it as an action item to keep following up in our weekly meetings'15:20
diablo_rojo_phonI figure it would be better for getting new volunteers for the roles anyway.15:20
diablo_rojo_phonYeah.. holidays.15:20
mnaseryeah that's a good idea too, it might have volunteers indeed15:20
mnasercool15:20
diablo_rojo_phonAnd if not, it might be time to retire the Sig.15:21
mnaser++15:21
mnaser#action diablo_rojo reach out to SIGs/ML and start auditing states of SIGs15:21
mnaserwe're gonna have you for a hat trick :)15:21
mnaser#topic Annual report suggestions (diablo_rojo)15:21
*** openstack changes topic to "Annual report suggestions (diablo_rojo) (Meeting topic: tc)"15:21
jungleboyj++15:21
diablo_rojo_phonThe draft is due next week and mnaser and I put together an outline before the holidays and wanted to make sure there wasn't anything we were missing.15:22
diablo_rojo_phonUhh, mnaser do you have a link to the outline etherpad?15:22
mnaseryep: https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/2020-openstack-annual-report15:22
mnaser#link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/2020-openstack-annual-report15:22
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diablo_rojo_phonThere's obviously a ton of stuff we could cover, but we don't want to write a novel.15:23
diablo_rojo_phonSo we tried to just focus on the biggest most.. impacting things and stuff that were bigger changes to stuff we've historically done.15:23
mnaseryep, so tc-members: appreciate adding anything we may have missed15:24
diablo_rojo_phonPlease add anything you think we don't have listed and NEED to cover by the end of the week so that we can get it all written by the deadline.15:24
jungleboyjThat looks like a good start.15:24
gmannsure15:24
diablo_rojo_phonThat's all for this topic I think mnaser.15:25
mnasercool cool15:25
mnaseralrighty15:25
mnaser#topic Add Resolution of TC stance on the OpenStackClient (diablo_rojo)15:25
*** openstack changes topic to "Add Resolution of TC stance on the OpenStackClient (diablo_rojo) (Meeting topic: tc)"15:25
mnaser#link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/75990415:25
mnaseri agree with dansmith commentary and im wondering what we can do to help land this patch based on those comments15:26
jungleboyjmnaser:  ++15:26
jungleboyjJust looking at those comments and I am ok with softening the language.15:27
mnasergmann: perhaps we can discuss a bit those comments and maybe dansmith has ideas on what we can make changes to exactly to help diablo_rojo_phon wrap this up15:27
gmannyeah, either we need to make it high level and not mentioning any detailed decision on python client whether to remove those or not OR decide what to do for standalone cases etc15:27
diablo_rojo_phonYes please :)15:27
diablo_rojo_phonIt was supposed to be high level.15:27
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jungleboyjYeah, would like to get that wrapped up.15:28
diablo_rojo_phonThen people kept asking for more detail and we slowly descended into adding it..15:28
dansmithwell, it's mildly controversial for some people, so wanting more detail is understandable, but yeah I think we just got too deep15:28
diablo_rojo_phonAgreed.15:29
jungleboyjAgreed.15:29
jungleboyjWe are taking a stance.  Not telling people what to do.15:29
diablo_rojo_phonIt's not surprising, but the whole point was to write something vague to keep from backwards progress and have a general direction.15:29
dansmithyup15:29
mnaseri do see the concern with standalone-inspired projects15:29
gmannhaving everything in osc as single interface and leave the removal/no-removal python*client up to projects.15:30
gmannif they have bandwidth and want to support standalone case then  fine15:30
diablo_rojo_phonAm open to phrasing suggestions to keep it vague. It's become a longer living patch than I had hoped it would be.15:30
mnaseroh i have an idea15:30
belmoreiraeven being a stance shouldn't it be mentioned into the anual report? It would give it some weight15:30
mnaserwhy dont we say aim for removing standalone clients15:31
mnaserunless they assert that they support standalone with the tc?15:31
mnaserso if a project doesnt assert it supports standalone, it shouldn't be messing about its client15:31
diablo_rojo_phonbelmoreira: since it hasn't landed we didn't include it in the outline.15:31
mnaserbut if the project asserts supporting standalone, then it should still support osc first- and be allowed to have its own client15:31
mnaseris that ok for 'best of both worlds' ?15:31
jungleboyjI think that makes sense but could see people grumbling about that.15:31
dansmithyeah, too much detail I think15:32
dansmithand by detail, I mean "too much to argue about"15:32
jungleboyjdansmith:  ++15:32
mnaservery valid15:32
gmannyeah, we might end up in old situation15:32
belmoreiradiablo_rojo_phon true, but has been discussed basically through all year15:32
diablo_rojo_phonI think that's a reasonable path, but yeah I fear the arguments.15:32
gmannbelmoreira: on standalone in annual report? you mean L37 https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/2020-openstack-annual-report15:32
mnasergmann: you're currently -1 -- what can we do to turn that around (and i see dansmith hasn't voted yet, so maybe would like to hear your thoughts)15:33
dansmithI had previously, I just got tired of re-adding my vote15:33
diablo_rojo_phonbelmoreira: I wanted to add it, but I also wanted this patch merged in November lol. We opted not to add it since it's still just a discussion with nothing concrete.15:33
diablo_rojo_phondansmith: you just want it landed too? ;)15:34
gmannI agree with what dansmith mentioned. we can leave the removal of python*client and say its up to projects if they want to maintain it or not but but youn have support all your cli in osc along with doc15:34
belmoreiradiablo_rojo_phon fair enough15:34
gmanncurrent version says 'remove the python*client'15:34
mnaserso gmann you're suggesting that 'you can keep python*client as long as you have feature parity in osc' ?15:35
diablo_rojo_phonbelmoreira: it's definitely important to call out and we will make sure it's in the next one once we can point at this resolution (god willing it's landed by then)15:35
gmannyeah we just talk about osc in this and leave any discussion on python*client as that is not yet concluded/or having arguments15:35
mnaserremember this whole thing stemmed from projects removing testing using osc into their client15:35
mnaserand this was to have something to go back to and say15:36
mnaser"please stop going backwards"15:36
gmannand all doc pointing to osc CLI.15:36
gmannwhich was origin of this discussion i think :)15:36
dansmithyeah15:36
jungleboyjI think the parity point is key.15:36
dansmithI think I covered that in my most recent comment15:36
gmannyeah.15:36
mnaserso should we drop the remove python*client stuff and add 'should use osc for ci and docs' ?15:36
gmann+1.15:37
jungleboyjI think that might help reduce argument.15:37
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mnasertc-members: ^ thoughts on that so diablo_rojo_phon can make the change?15:38
mnaser(of course we'll vote on it but having an early ok to proceed would help the back and forth)15:38
jungleboyjI am in support in the interest of moving forward.15:38
dansmithyup15:38
belmoreira+115:38
gmannsounds good15:39
mnasercool -- diablo_rojo_phon i think we have a way forward with some sort of mostly-agreement here15:39
ricolin+1 on drop the `remove` stuff as it make it easy to moving forward as first step15:39
diablo_rojo_phonOkay cool.15:39
diablo_rojo_phonI will try to get that update up today.15:39
mnaserthank you for your patience <315:39
mnaserand next-up15:40
mnaser#topic Audit and clean-up tags (gmann)15:40
*** openstack changes topic to "Audit and clean-up tags (gmann) (Meeting topic: tc)"15:40
mnasereh for continuty15:40
mnaser#undo15:40
openstackRemoving item from minutes: #topic Audit and clean-up tags (gmann)15:40
mnaser#action diablo_rojo_phon update resolution for tc stance on osc15:40
mnaser#topic Audit and clean-up tags (gmann)15:40
*** openstack changes topic to "Audit and clean-up tags (gmann) (Meeting topic: tc)"15:40
gmannI was targeting API interop tag and sent ML in dec #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-December/019505.html15:40
gmannbut could not get any response on that.15:41
mnasergmann: maybe a 'bump' on that thread could be good considering holidays and all?15:41
gmannmay be due to holiday time, i will bump this thread again with PTL tag15:41
gmannyeah15:41
gmannI will do today15:41
jungleboyj++15:41
mnaser#action gmann continue to audit tags + outreach to community to apply for them15:41
mnaseranything else for the topic gmann ?15:42
gmannnothing else from me.15:42
mnaserand a not-so-great topic :(15:43
mnaser#topic Farewell Andreas (diablo_rojo)15:43
*** openstack changes topic to "Farewell Andreas (diablo_rojo) (Meeting topic: tc)"15:43
mnaserso: Andreas mentioned they will no longer be able to continue helping with project-config reviews15:44
mnaseras far as i know, they were mainly doing it on their own as a contribution and not sponsored at all by their employee to do it for the most part15:44
mnaserfor context, andreas has had 15333 reviews into project-config!15:45
jungleboyjWow.15:45
mnaser269 in victoria, double the next person after them, so they really were doing a lot of work for helping keeping project-config flowing15:46
gmannI can help on project-config zuul jobs/acl things area.15:46
mnaserfor the most part, the reviews are somewhat trivial but mostly procedural in understanding how a change can affect something else15:46
mnaserto be honest, i am on project-config-core but i am not actively checking reviews on a daily basis, so i can certainly try and step up a bit from my side, but i think we'll need something more sustainable15:47
mnaserhttps://review.opendev.org/q/project:openstack/project-config15:48
mnaserso some grafana dashboard jobs, some projects.yaml changes, usually addition/retire of projects15:48
mnaserthe only concern right now is that  openstack/project-config is project-config for * -- so there's some airship/starlingx changes in there too15:49
fungiwe're happy to add more project-config-core reviewers if folks think they have time to look through changes there15:49
mnaserdunno if clarkb or fungi are around to talk about if the idea of splitting that out at some near future (understandibly, it's.. not trivial)15:50
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fungieven if you're only reviewing openstack config changes that's still the bulk of them so a huge help15:50
mnaserfungi: i don't seem to remember off the top of my head right now, is project-config a config-project ?15:50
gmannyeah we can do based on incoming requests.15:50
fungiand yeah, the eventual plan is for each namespace to have an opendev config repo which contains things like their pipeline configs, trusted central job definitions, acls, et cetera15:51
fungimnaser: it is a trusted "config" project for zuul, yes15:51
mnaserif so, the one thing to be somewhat concerned about is the fact that it is essential 'root' zuul access to a degree15:51
mnaserso those reviewers would need to exercise care when it comes to things that can include secrets/trusted jobs/etc15:52
fungialso because it's trusted content, there's no pre-merge exercising of the zuul configuration in it15:52
fungionly takes effect once approved and merged15:53
mnaserso zuul job output is not a reflection of the actual change15:53
gmannyeah, after merging only. depends-on is no effect for those changes to check the changes in advance15:54
fungiwell, we do have some linting and other pre-merge tests of non-zuul content in there15:54
gmannfrom service side15:54
mnaserhear me out on this: what if we dropped -1/+1 right to * on project-config and adding project-config-shadow, for those people who would like to get involved, and then a full core can merge with one 'shadow' core +1 as a rule for us15:55
fungithings like checking acl normalization/syntax, ordering of entries in very long files, checking irc channel permissions before adding bots, et cetera15:55
fungithat stuff is still tested15:55
mnaserwhich will help speed up merging stuff (needing 1 person) and also mentoring those looking to become core, and making the actual +1 more meaningful15:55
mnaser(generally, i am super happy and welcoming of adding people to core, but i think we just have to be mindful of the trusted context of those repos)15:55
fungithat's probably a discussion to be had with more of the opendev administrators, but maybe bring it up on service-discuss15:56
fungii'm also happy to see us just trust people to not approve changes if they're not sure15:56
mnaserthat's also a very good easy alternative :)15:57
mnasermaybe we should discuss this again next week15:57
gmannyeah that is fair point, usual practice in many projects15:57
mnaserseems like it's quieted down15:57
mnaserok well, i think we can continue this next week15:59
mnaser#topic open discussion15:59
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"15:59
mnaserand open quick topics?15:59
fungididn't want to interrupt mid-topic earlier, but standalone clients *could* also be rebuilt on top of openstacksdk (it's lightweight even though osc is not particularly, at least not today)15:59
mnaserfungi: i think that's what ironic has done afaik, right?15:59
dansmiththat is for sure the right approach,16:00
funginot sure, but awesome if true16:00
mnaserdont quote me on it but i think they have done something like that16:00
dansmithbut there's a lot of work to make that a thing, when the standalones currently work16:00
fungiyep, totally16:00
fungiit was more a theoretical16:00
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mnaserhttps://github.com/openstack/python-ironicclient/blob/master/setup.cfg#L26-L2816:00
dansmithso from the perspective of someone not wanting to do this, it's like "move your code here, then re-write your existing code to use that new stuff"16:00
fungibut cool to hear that maybe at least one project has already done that16:00
mnaserhttps://github.com/openstack/python-ironicclient/blob/master/ironicclient/shell.py#L116-L12916:01
mnaserif you're curious fungi ^ :)16:01
jungleboyjDo we need to End Meeting?16:06
jungleboyj:-)16:06
mnaser#endmeeting16:06
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ | channel logs http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/"16:06
gmannyeah16:06
mnaser:)16:06
openstackMeeting ended Thu Jan  7 16:06:23 2021 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:06
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2021/tc.2021-01-07-15.03.html16:06
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2021/tc.2021-01-07-15.03.txt16:06
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2021/tc.2021-01-07-15.03.log.html16:06
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openstackgerritThierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: molteniron does not make releases  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/76980517:40
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openstackgerritGhanshyam proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Document $series-last tag for Temepst to test EM branches  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/project-team-guide/+/76982119:43
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