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| spotz | o/ | 14:58 |
|---|---|---|
| gmann | tc-members meeting time | 14:59 |
| gmann | #startmeeting tc | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 13 15:00:09 2021 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is gmann. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 15:00 |
| gmann | #topic Roll call | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll call (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:00 | |
| ricolin | o/ | 15:00 |
| gmann | o/ | 15:00 |
| spotz | o/ | 15:00 |
| dansmith | o/ | 15:00 |
| jungleboyj | o/ | 15:02 |
| gmann | yoctozepto6 and Belmiro would not be able to join as per "Apologies for Absence" section | 15:02 |
| gmann | so let's start | 15:02 |
| gmann | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee#Agenda_Suggestions | 15:03 |
| gmann | today agenda ^^ | 15:03 |
| gmann | #topic Follow up on past action items | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Follow up on past action items (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:03 | |
| gmann | gmann to add SIG chair/co-chair info in sig doc site | 15:03 |
| gmann | I pushed the patch #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance-sigs/+/790827 | 15:03 |
| gmann | it is in governance-sig so good to merge with 2nd +2 | 15:04 |
| gmann | please review and +A accordingly. | 15:04 |
| gmann | gmann to prepare the etherpad for draft proposal of PTL+TC periodic meeting | 15:04 |
| gmann | I have created the etherpad #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/tc-ptl-interaction | 15:05 |
| gmann | which we will discuss in later topic | 15:05 |
| gmann | #topic Gate health check (dansmith/yoctozepto) | 15:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Gate health check (dansmith/yoctozepto) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:05 | |
| gmann | dansmith: any news you would like to share | 15:05 |
| dansmith | so, I've seen a bunch of cinder fails in the last week | 15:05 |
| dansmith | lots of rechecks due to volume related test failures, | 15:05 |
| dansmith | so I assume the lull in activity was masking a lot of that, but I think we've still got work to do there | 15:06 |
| jungleboyj | :-( | 15:06 |
| dansmith | there's also the discussion about decommissioning the ELK infrastructure, | 15:06 |
| dansmith | which is well-justified but will significantly reduce our visibility into the frequency of these failures | 15:06 |
| dansmith | and limit our ability to work on the health as a system | 15:07 |
| dansmith | not sure what to do about it, other than what has been communicated on the list at this point | 15:07 |
| gmann | humm, that is valid concern | 15:07 |
| jungleboyj | dansmith: Yeah, I was a little concerned with that discussion. | 15:07 |
| dansmith | but clearly we either need someone to commit to a serious amount of time to rebuild it, and maintain it going forward, | 15:07 |
| dansmith | or we're just going to have to deal without it | 15:07 |
| dansmith | jungleboyj: me too | 15:07 |
| dansmith | so, that's pretty much it for me..not a particularly happy picture all said | 15:08 |
| jungleboyj | I was surprised by that discussion. | 15:08 |
| dansmith | I was surprised that more people didn't consider it critical infrastructure | 15:09 |
| spotz | If there's issues and no one to maintain it it makes sense. Kinda goes with the frequent call outs for more opendev help needed | 15:09 |
| dansmith | but also somewhat surprised at how much resource it consumes | 15:09 |
| fungi | it is not a lightweight service, no | 15:09 |
| fungi | mostly because it's a massive amount of data our jobs are logging | 15:10 |
| gmann | surly it will make hard for maintaining the CI/CD and tracking issue etc | 15:10 |
| fungi | it's a classic "big data problem" which needs experienced "big data people" to do it well | 15:11 |
| dansmith | fungi: well, that's really your fault | 15:12 |
| dansmith | as my wife says "I value X less because you make X look so easy" :) | 15:12 |
| dansmith | and ELK is definitely something I've taken for granted because it was just there and easy :) | 15:12 |
| gmann | As this is no maintainer issues and kind of must-require for upstream CI/CD smooth maintenance, I feel this is one of the issue we should bring to broader audience. especially company or users. | 15:13 |
| fungi | please do | 15:13 |
| gmann | and bring this to Board also which should add some resources. | 15:14 |
| dansmith | well, they did on the list, and without a deadline | 15:14 |
| gmann | we were asking for infra help since many years | 15:14 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: ++ I think this is an issue that needs to be highlighted. | 15:14 |
| spotz | Yeah it definitely needs attention and some help | 15:15 |
| gmann | fungi: any deadline for stopping those service? | 15:15 |
| fungi | it's one of many services we're decommissioning, it just happens to be a higher-profile one | 15:15 |
| fungi | gmann: not decided yet at least, so no for now | 15:15 |
| gmann | ok, | 15:16 |
| gmann | so let's take two action here | 15:16 |
| fungi | we've in the past month or so taken out limesurvey (survey.o.o), asterisk (pbx.o.o) and our mqtt broker (firehose.o.o) | 15:16 |
| spotz | Can we move it to the bottom of the list to give us more time?:) | 15:16 |
| fungi | and there will certainly be more | 15:16 |
| fungi | and yes, like i said, clark started the discussion early so folks can come up with solutions | 15:17 |
| fungi | it's not going away yet, it just needs to | 15:17 |
| gmann | 1. ML to especially highlight the ELK services and ask for help explicitly with ref to current thread | 15:18 |
| gmann | 2. Bring this to Board meeting which is planned on June 29. | 15:18 |
| spotz | I'm pretty sure folks saw the email but not the importance | 15:18 |
| dansmith | spotz: because they don't know what ELK is doing for us, or because of some other reason? | 15:19 |
| dansmith | not enough shouting? | 15:19 |
| jungleboyj | Based on the responses I am sure a lot of people are hoping the question will just go away. :-) | 15:19 |
| fungi | i can guarantee the question will eventually go away, just maybe not in the way those people are hoping | 15:20 |
| spotz | dansmith: don't know what it's doing for us | 15:20 |
| dansmith | okay | 15:20 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: ++ | 15:20 |
| dansmith | unfortunately a minority of people work on gate issues (which is an issue itself), so those are the ones likely to feel strongly | 15:20 |
| spotz | Kinda like we're retiring asterisk, well I don't use it so no big deal. But it could be tied into an aleerting system whiichh I'm not aware of... | 15:20 |
| dansmith | removing it will raise the bar for difficulty on that already unsung and unpopular task | 15:20 |
| gmann | agree | 15:21 |
| dansmith | so it's kinda self-fulfilling that it's not a big deal to more people | 15:21 |
| gmann | dansmith: do you mind doing 1st one, raising critical alarm on ML for ELK services ? | 15:21 |
| fungi | i'm curious how the current discussion on the ml could have reached a broader audience, personally | 15:22 |
| dansmith | gmann: well, I can, but I'm a bit confused about what the current email is lacking | 15:22 |
| dansmith | right what fungi said | 15:22 |
| dansmith | we can send another email with "ELK: why you should care" but I'm not sure it will really garner more attention, but if people think it's important then I can | 15:22 |
| fungi | it sounds like, based on dpawlik's recent response, that rdo might be interested in running something | 15:22 |
| gmann | I am fine with only current but it has few more services listed also so in case we want to highlight ELK explicitly | 15:22 |
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| dansmith | fungi: yeah but I'm worried they don't realize the 1TiB/day requirement :P | 15:23 |
| dansmith | gmann: ah, okay | 15:23 |
| spotz | fungi I can check on the RDO side | 15:23 |
| gmann | especially what we must continue for day to day debugging | 15:23 |
| gmann | which is what we can highlights in various platform like newsletter, Board etc | 15:24 |
| dansmith | okay well, I'll work on a draft and look for some reviews | 15:24 |
| gmann | +1 thanks | 15:24 |
| gmann | #action dansmith Draft the ML to explicit Alert/highlight the ELK services maintenance help with ref to current thread | 15:25 |
| jungleboyj | dansmith: ++ Thanks. | 15:25 |
| gmann | I will bring this on Board agenda | 15:25 |
| gmann | #action gmann to bring the ELK/infra help to Board | 15:25 |
| gmann | any other things to discuss in Gate check topic? | 15:26 |
| dansmith | not from me | 15:26 |
| gmann | thanks for brining this and keeping eyes on gate things | 15:26 |
| gmann | #topic Planning for TC + PTL interaction (gmann) | 15:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Planning for TC + PTL interaction (gmann) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:26 | |
| gmann | I composed a draft in #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/tc-ptl-interaction | 15:27 |
| gmann | I would like to ask each members to add your opinion in etherpad and then we can discuss it in next meeting | 15:27 |
| gmann | or feel free to add more discussion point too if you want | 15:28 |
| gmann | #topic Xena cycle tracker status check | 15:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Xena cycle tracker status check (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:29 | |
| spotz | Added a comment for if we hold it AT the PTG:) | 15:29 |
| gmann | spotz: cool thanks | 15:29 |
| gmann | #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/tc-xena-tracker | 15:29 |
| gmann | this is tracker's tacking week | 15:29 |
| gmann | as this is still initial of cycle, we can just discuss the one having progress instead of tracking all item's progress | 15:30 |
| gmann | one is from dansmith on charter change on ATC->AC #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/790092 | 15:31 |
| gmann | we have discussion on gerrit on this | 15:31 |
| gmann | anything to discuss here or continue on gerrit itself ? | 15:32 |
| ricolin | I think we can keep the discussion in review:) | 15:32 |
| ricolin | I mean for https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/790092 | 15:33 |
| gmann | on fungi's point on Bylaw, i left comment there for a way to comply Bylaws. basically what we did for "OpenStack Technical Committee Approved Release" term | 15:33 |
| gmann | hope that should be fine from Bylaws perspective | 15:33 |
| gmann | moving next | 15:34 |
| gmann | Audit and finish the previous cycle pending community-wide goal work | 15:34 |
| gmann | I started few patches for PTL guide | 15:35 |
| gmann | #link https://review.opendev.org/q/topic:%2522project-ptl-and-contrib-docs%2522+status:open | 15:35 |
| gmann | not many but just to start | 15:35 |
| fungi | yes, as long as the tc indicates that whatever it's producing is the atcs list the bylaws requires, then it's fine. the bylaws already has a carve-out for adding people who aren't code contributors, just need to have some way to bridge the naming divide | 15:35 |
| spotz | Oh in regards to PTL elections, diablo_rojo mentioned it's based on ATC status. Could it be AAC status plus a contrib in that project? | 15:35 |
| gmann | yeah | 15:35 |
| spotz | AC not AAC | 15:35 |
| fungi | it's technically "apc" for ptl elections, not atc | 15:35 |
| gmann | yeah, PTL are APC always | 15:36 |
| spotz | Ok so reword:) The APC list build off of AC + project contrib? | 15:36 |
| fungi | ptl elections also aren't mentioned in the bylaws, so the tc can do whatever it likes there as long as the requirements for editing the charter are observed | 15:36 |
| gmann | means ATC which can be contributor in x project would have vote for project y pTL election | 15:36 |
| gmann | *would not | 15:37 |
| gmann | and yes, we in TC repo will keep list of ATC (renamed as AC ) | 15:37 |
| ricolin | Isn't the ATC less for a year? | 15:38 |
| gmann | spotz: APC is project contrib only. AC = APC+ other active contributors | 15:38 |
| fungi | atc is actually for "365 days" according to the bylaws, i think | 15:38 |
| ricolin | fungi, that's what I remember:) | 15:39 |
| gmann | yeah | 15:39 |
| gmann | " The term shall be for three hundred and sixty five days after the date of approval of the application by the Technical Committee." | 15:39 |
| gmann | section 3.a.ii in https://www.openstack.org/legal/technical-committee-member-policy/ | 15:40 |
| fungi | for election purposes we've basically considered that to be interpreted as two release cycles | 15:40 |
| gmann | right | 15:40 |
| spotz | Ok shoot:( | 15:40 |
| gmann | anyways let's review the patch and continue discussion there | 15:42 |
| gmann | moving next | 15:43 |
| gmann | TC members to drive the Y cycle community wide goal | 15:43 |
| gmann | ricolin: any updates after you sent the ML | 15:43 |
| ricolin | gmann, No much really, mainly checking around with backlogs for goals ans make some survey | 15:44 |
| gmann | great. may be we need to cleanup backlog also | 15:44 |
| gmann | we did in Ussuri cycle at some extend | 15:44 |
| ricolin | I think so | 15:44 |
| gmann | thanks for working on this. | 15:45 |
| ricolin | I can make some clean | 15:45 |
| ricolin | Personally, I like the container image support one | 15:45 |
| gmann | I do not see any other progress in etherpad please bring here if there is any and i missed that | 15:45 |
| gmann | ricolin: +1 | 15:45 |
| ricolin | wondering if mnaser have any idea how can we push that one forward | 15:46 |
| gmann | I think there was patch also for proposing it as goal | 15:47 |
| ricolin | gmann, if RBAC is proposed, we only need one goal to search for | 15:47 |
| gmann | ricolin: #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/720107 | 15:47 |
| ricolin | gmann, that was abandoned for an year | 15:47 |
| gmann | yeah | 15:47 |
| gmann | ricolin: yeah I will compose RBAC one, most probably next week or so | 15:48 |
| dansmith | I think a number of projects are working on rbac stuff, | 15:48 |
| dansmith | so that seems like a no-brainer right? | 15:48 |
| ricolin | If we allow some project skip from the container goal | 15:48 |
| gmann | yeah, many are left with less attention | 15:48 |
| ricolin | it might get easier to be accepted | 15:48 |
| gmann | as per discussion with lbragstad we could do goal this cycle and close the popup team but as we are not doing any goal in this cycle we could do in Y | 15:48 |
| spotz | lbragstad is out on paternity:) | 15:49 |
| gmann | and to make sure all project are done and we can try out the default enabling new rbac via oslo or so | 15:49 |
| gmann | yeah | 15:49 |
| jungleboyj | spotz: Oh wow, Didn't know that. Good for him! | 15:49 |
| gmann | anything else on goal or tracker status? | 15:50 |
| ricolin | tc-members please help to suggest Y-cycle goal if you see any potential fits | 15:51 |
| ricolin | nope | 15:51 |
| gmann | +1. | 15:51 |
| ricolin | but we need to do it asap | 15:51 |
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| gmann | #topic Open Reviews | 15:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Reviews (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:52 | |
| gmann | #link https://review.opendev.org/q/project:openstack/governance+is:open | 15:52 |
| gmann | we have two open review | 15:52 |
| gmann | this is eligible for approve #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/790582 | 15:52 |
| gmann | other in discussion. | 15:53 |
| gmann | that's all for today I think | 15:53 |
| gmann | thanks all for joining | 15:53 |
| gmann | #endmeeting | 15:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ | channel logs http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/" | 15:53 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 13 15:53:45 2021 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:53 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2021/tc.2021-05-13-15.00.html | 15:53 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2021/tc.2021-05-13-15.00.txt | 15:53 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2021/tc.2021-05-13-15.00.log.html | 15:53 |
| spotz | Thanks gmann and everryone | 15:53 |
| jungleboyj | Thank you! | 15:54 |
| gmann | ricolin: spotz jungleboyj can any of you +A this, as 2nd reviewer can +A in governance-sig review https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance-sigs/+/790827 | 15:55 |
| ricolin | gmann, done | 15:56 |
| gmann | thanks | 15:56 |
| dansmith | gmann: fungi: so, looking at the current thread, I'm worried about starting a new one to highlight ELK and losing or splintering the discussion that has already happened and will come out of it | 15:56 |
| spotz | +A or +W just making sure I have access:) | 15:56 |
| dansmith | gmann: fungi: So what if I did that thing one should never do, and reply but change the subject a bit to kinda start a sub-thread about importance and resources? | 15:57 |
| fungi | dansmith: creating subthreads by changing the subject is plenty fine by mailing list etiquette standards | 15:58 |
| gmann | dansmith: +1. that will work | 15:58 |
| fungi | just keep the in-reply-to header untouched | 15:58 |
| dansmith | fungi: when properly done to create a subthread, sure, but it's abused too often for me to consider it a best practice :) | 15:59 |
| fungi | so that sane mail user agents will still thread it together with the original discussion | 15:59 |
| fungi | i would consider this a great example of when a subthread is appropriate | 15:59 |
| dansmith | yup | 16:00 |
| dansmith | clarkb: did you see the tc meeting where I was asked to summarize and put out a call for help? | 16:05 |
| dansmith | clarkb: just want to make sure you realize the reply coming to the thread (later) will be not intended for you, but to provide a linkable summary of specifically the ELK concerns that we can use when going door to door looking for handouts :) | 16:06 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Retire puppet-glare https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/790582 | 16:09 |
| clarkb | dansmith: ya fungi pointed out it was being discussed here so I joined (late) and also read scrollback via eavesdrop logs | 16:09 |
| dansmith | ack | 16:10 |
| clarkb | that reminds me I wanted to point out the spotz that part of the motivation with removing asterisk is that it never had huge uptake but jitsi meet is seeing good use. Basically we deployed a better tool for the use case that people actually seem to use | 16:12 |
| clarkb | and survey was only used twice which made it an easy candidate | 16:13 |
| dansmith | yeah asterisk was deployed in like 2012 or something before there was as wide of adoption of non-IRC communication anyway I think | 16:14 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance-sigs master: Add email and irc nick for SIG chair/co-chair https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance-sigs/+/790827 | 16:19 |
| spotz | clarkb we used to run it at the house but it was ages ago. Didn't know it was still a thing:) | 16:25 |
| * dansmith still does | 16:26 | |
| dansmith | gmann: fungi: clarkb: https://termbin.com/69e9 <- comments please | 16:27 |
| fungi | dansmith: lgtm. there's a lot more in there than elk and e-r (the 80 worker threads which preprocess and feed log files to the indexer, also openstack-health and the underlying subunit sql db), but that's probably already waxing into a lot of detail | 16:33 |
| dansmith | fungi: I snipped out the subunit2sql bit because I didn't realize that was related | 16:34 |
| clarkb | dansmith: subunit2sql uses the same ingestion infrastructure but to a different backend (mysql vs elasticsearch) | 16:34 |
| dansmith | okay, so subunit-worker, and the trove one.. health is something else rtight? | 16:35 |
| fungi | openstack-health is basically the dashboard for that | 16:35 |
| fungi | and api | 16:35 |
| gmann | yeah | 16:35 |
| fungi | http://status.openstack.org/openstack-health/#/ | 16:36 |
| fungi | no idea if that's been maintained lately | 16:36 |
| gmann | openstack-health is fine to shutdown as we in QA team also does not much maintainer for that but I can bring this in QA office hour too | 16:36 |
| clarkb | gmann: thanks | 16:36 |
| dansmith | okay I'll just throw those resources back in, but I was trying to avoid the word salad of topics in the subject to resonate with more people (if that makes sense) | 16:36 |
| gmann | I used to search it for sometime like check test health or so but I have not used in recently past (1 year ot so) | 16:37 |
| gmann | or | 16:37 |
| gmann | and I am not JS developer so cannot help in health dashboard :( | 16:38 |
| mnaser | i'm sorry, i missed todays meeting | 16:38 |
| mnaser | it's eid today so i'm a bit out of it :) | 16:38 |
| gmann | ah, forgot about that. happy Eid mnaser | 16:39 |
| mnaser | thanks gmann :) | 16:39 |
| gmann | dansmith: fungi clarkb if I understand correctly for this sub thread, we will only highlight help for ELK and leave rest like o-h as OK-TO-SHUTDOWN right? | 16:40 |
| dansmith | gmann: I thought that was the goal of your suggestion.. to specifically explain what ELK means to the project and the impact of taking it down | 16:41 |
| dansmith | I wanted to focus on that, and hence the snipping out of anything that isn't critical to understanding that impact and the requirements we have | 16:41 |
| dansmith | I'm not convinced this email is necessary, so I don't want to send it unless you all think it will be helpful, even if it's just an executive summary people can link to when asking for resource | 16:42 |
| fungi | which bits to focus on is a question of which ones people are relying on, but as far as what opendev will shut down i still expect it's all of that, at this point we're mainly looking for people to build something similar maybe but i doubt we can accommodate it directly within opendev's remaining fleet of services | 16:42 |
| gmann | dansmith: +1, sorry many thing at same time, so did not read the full logs | 16:42 |
| dansmith | spotz asserted that it probably wasn't well understood so ... /cc spotz ^ :) | 16:42 |
| gmann | dansmith: yeah for executive etc to know that "what is this and we want help not just shutting down as no use" | 16:43 |
| fungi | the opendev sysadmins are currently at the point of turning things off so we can focus on keeping gerrit, zuul, mailing lists, etherpad, et cetera up and running | 16:44 |
| spotz | Yeah if no one realizes the purpose it serves they don't know it's important to keep it | 16:44 |
| gmann | dansmith: this lgtm overall - https://termbin.com/69e9 | 16:45 |
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| dansmith | spotz: ack, I've tried to do that summary in ^ .. does that look good to you as well? | 16:46 |
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| spotz | dansmith: reading then I've got a live stream:) | 16:51 |
| spotz | dansmith: looks good! | 16:53 |
| dansmith | cool, thanks | 16:53 |
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| zaneb | I've wondered for a while if https://prometheus.io/docs/practices/instrumentation/#logging would fulfil some of the functions of ELK a lot more efficiently. not clear how you would then trace that back to individual jobs though | 17:38 |
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| fungi | presumably the same way, you tag every indexed object with relevant metadata | 17:45 |
| zaneb | you'd end up with billions of timeseries; effectively that would reduce to the same thing we're doing now | 17:49 |
| clarkb | you would be able to see trneds but no identify specifics I think | 17:54 |
| clarkb | if you want specifics that requires disk :/ | 17:54 |
| fungi | or more likely disks | 17:55 |
| clarkb | where that gets tricky for us is we do a lot of pre merge testing. You want a way to avoid mixing pre merge with post merge trneds. You could potentially split in half that way instead and get a lot of value | 18:00 |
| clarkb | rather than doing it by job/change/etc | 18:00 |
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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: We are cautiously optimistic that Zuul is functional now on the new server. We ran into some unexpected problems and want to do another restart in the near future to ensure a revert addresses the source of that problem. | 22:05 | |
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