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| ttx | It appears Freenode new admins are shutting down channels with obvious redirections to other networks, and redirecting them to local Freenode channels instead. FOSDEM just reported their (redirected to liberachat) channel being hijacked in this manner | 08:15 |
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| tosky | ttx: #rdo received that treatment this night | 09:17 |
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| yoctozepto | we've basically known the new strategy since Monday at least, hence why I revived the discussion then; I really don't know what we are supposed to be waiting for now; my stance is we should already start devising a plan to handle the migration | 09:48 |
| yoctozepto | obviosly, we now know we can't add any obvious topics as those violate the new policy and will be taken down | 09:48 |
| yoctozepto | tosky: what did #rdo do precisely? | 09:48 |
| tosky | yoctozepto: they had a reference to the network-that-cannot-be-named in the channel topic | 09:52 |
| tosky | yoctozepto: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23rdo/%23rdo.2021-05-26.log.html | 09:53 |
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| yoctozepto | tosky: thanks, I see it: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23rdo/%23rdo.2021-05-21.log.html#t2021-05-21T15:53:37 | 10:14 |
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| mnaser | Wow | 11:22 |
| mnaser | We need to get moving then. | 11:22 |
| mnaser | tc-members: could we urgently have a discussion today to pick where we move to? probably helpful to have fungi who’s worked on preparing all this too | 11:23 |
| mugsie | seems they did it to wikipedia as well - https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/1397391160906158082 | 11:23 |
| mnaser | What’s scary is actual private invite only channels I’m in got affected. | 11:26 |
| yoctozepto | well, they can read all topics | 11:28 |
| mugsie | they must have just searched for <that network> in the topics and done a batch job, without looking at the channel status | 11:28 |
| yoctozepto | probably | 11:28 |
| mugsie | with services they can read allc hannels to be fair | 11:29 |
| yoctozepto | better not mention the i-r-c-network-name-that-people-mass-migr*te-to | 11:30 |
| dtantsur | I wonder if we should avoid using the channel's topic to promote the new location | 11:32 |
| dtantsur | instead, leave a few volunteers on freenode that will **privately** ask newcomers to move over | 11:33 |
| yoctozepto | it seems we have to avoid this to not get targeted | 11:33 |
| * dtantsur volunteers for ironic, can do others as well | 11:33 | |
| yoctozepto | we can also link to a notice on an openstack page | 11:33 |
| yoctozepto | so that it's not obvious for bots | 11:33 |
| dtantsur | a good idea. they may discover it, but not automatically | 11:34 |
| yoctozepto | and yeah, some people will stay for sure | 11:34 |
| yoctozepto | what a bad luck with this | 11:34 |
| dtantsur | indeed :( | 11:34 |
| dtantsur | 202X have been rough so far | 11:35 |
| mnaser | dtantsur: I’ve got some ideas but keeping this for otr for now… | 11:36 |
| dtantsur | ++ | 11:36 |
| mnaser | tc-members: I picked this arbitrary time — I hope you can all join, if not, I hope that tou trust who makes it there will act in best interest — http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2021-May/022703.html | 11:37 |
| mnaser | cc fungi dtantsur yoctozepto ^ | 11:38 |
| yoctozepto | mnaser: tc-members triggers me, no worries | 11:38 |
| yoctozepto | time is ok | 11:38 |
| yoctozepto | though had to translate the timezone | 11:38 |
| dtantsur | I'm not a TC member, just being vocal :) | 11:38 |
| yoctozepto | ironic is vocal :-) | 11:39 |
| dtantsur | very ironically :) | 11:39 |
| yoctozepto | which is actually good | 11:39 |
| yoctozepto | well, truth be told, bears tend to be quite vocal | 11:40 |
| dtantsur | depends on how much you annoy them ;) | 11:40 |
| yoctozepto | I hoped you would mention that | 11:40 |
| yoctozepto | cause we are all clearly annoyed | 11:40 |
| dtantsur | yep | 11:40 |
| dtantsur | I cannot make the meeting, but I think you know my position already | 11:41 |
| mnaser | dtantsur: can I get an opinion from you on network choice? | 11:41 |
| dtantsur | mnaser: I don't care much, but many of us have joined #openstack-ironic on OFTC already, so let it be | 11:42 |
| * mnaser personally likes OFTC because low target right now and libvirt and ceph live there | 11:42 | |
| dtantsur | #rdo moved to libera for now, but they may change their mind | 11:42 |
| dtantsur | (I think they want to stay with CentOS) | 11:43 |
| mnaser | Makes sense | 11:43 |
| dtantsur | my vote for OFTC is mostly because it's stable and not drama-affected | 11:43 |
| yoctozepto | ++, I'm team OFTC too | 11:46 |
| yoctozepto | all reasons mentioned already | 11:46 |
| yoctozepto | and Debian is there | 11:46 |
| yoctozepto | dtantsur also promised to volunteer as local squatter | 11:46 |
| mugsie | oftc makes a lot of sense - if the other place was a little more established, it might make a case for it, but avoiding 2 migrations seems like a good idea | 11:46 |
| yoctozepto | so I guess we know all ;-) | 11:46 |
| * mnaser is constantly thinking in the back of my mind at the amount of changes needed for docs | 11:47 | |
| mnaser | But I think if we can get the opendev team help to do a big forced merge thing like they did back to opendev.org migration | 11:47 |
| mugsie | yeah, thats going to be a doozy | 11:47 |
| mnaser | We’ve done it before for all gitreview files | 11:47 |
| dtantsur | yep | 11:48 |
| mugsie | yeah - but it was limited to a single file - a regex that s/freende/oftc/g might be a little more ... destructive :( | 11:48 |
| dtantsur | right, and I'd add an explicit warning against freenode (since the channel will remain) | 11:49 |
| yoctozepto | I wonder if the bots read also messages now to target channels potentially willing to escape | 11:49 |
| yoctozepto | dtantsur: yeah, based on the current events, I would say we unfortunately should | 11:50 |
| mugsie | i wonder - gentoo seems to have lost channels that didn't have the magic topic | 11:50 |
| yoctozepto | mugsie: any idea what topic they had? | 11:51 |
| yoctozepto | perhaps they have done fuzzy matching | 11:51 |
| mugsie | no - the post just said "channels that had not yet migrated" | 11:51 |
| dtantsur | key word "migrate"? | 11:51 |
| mugsie | yeah - I think as a project, they had been open about the fact they were moving | 11:52 |
| yoctozepto | ok, we have to be careful | 11:53 |
| yoctozepto | perhaps should go with something like 'Before interacting, please read INNOCENT_URL_HERE' | 11:53 |
| dtantsur | prepare first - then announce it | 11:53 |
| dtantsur | yep, a good idea | 11:53 |
| yoctozepto | and in there a big red message | 11:53 |
| yoctozepto | unless they target us specifically, they cannot match us on that | 11:54 |
| mnaser | It’s kinda unbelievable that we’re having to do this | 11:54 |
| dtantsur | sigh | 11:54 |
| yoctozepto | yeah | 11:54 |
| mnaser | I’m in this same channel on oftc and I think we should discuss there if we want. Even if it’s not the final target. | 11:57 |
| yoctozepto | me too | 12:01 |
| yoctozepto | but there are too few of us there | 12:01 |
| yoctozepto | as for the meeting, need to draft agenda, we should ideally decide all the needed things | 12:02 |
| yoctozepto | confirm target | 12:03 |
| yoctozepto | draft actions | 12:03 |
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| fungi | mnaser: sorry, catching up, i'm not around at 14:30 but will happily ready what you have to say when i get back from my grocery pickup trip soon thereafter | 12:37 |
| mnaser | fungi: if you have some time before then and want to leave some of your comments here beforehand -- https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/openstack-irc | 12:38 |
| fungi | i can, though i'm trying to get feedback *from* projects like openstack to help inform opendev's decision, so don't want to influence projects any more than answering questions they have | 12:40 |
| mnaser | fungi: i like to think you're still part of the openstack project still D: | 12:43 |
| mnaser | :P | 12:43 |
| fungi | yep, just trying not to get my hats stuck together too badly ;) | 12:46 |
| jungleboyj | mnaser: I will plan to join the meeting. Thank you for setting up. | 12:50 |
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| fungi | looks like #openbsd on freenode got reset to ##openbsd for similar reasons of the channel topic violating policy | 13:11 |
| yoctozepto | geez, they really went at it | 13:12 |
| fungi | #python is probably going to get hit soon as well, somehow they've managed to escape wrath so far even though their topic mentions another irc network, though at least subtle in only mentioning its existence | 13:15 |
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| jungleboyj | mnaser: Just to be clear, that meeting is in an hour, right? Timezone challenged today. | 13:27 |
| mnaser | correct | 13:27 |
| mnaser | jungleboyj: ^ | 13:28 |
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| gmann | ohhh | 13:57 |
| gmann | mnaser: thanks for set up the meeting. | 13:58 |
| gmann | fungi: from opendev perspective, we can decide in this meeting and inform openstack decision after that | 13:58 |
| mnaser | gmann: no problem, i hope you can make it too | 14:00 |
| gmann | yeah i just starting my work so I am fine with time | 14:00 |
| spotz | I may not be able to attend I've had a death in the family and have an appointment in 30 | 14:09 |
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| spotz | I'll join the meeting as soon as I can if it's still going on | 14:23 |
| gmann | mnaser: I am moving the section L76 at first to discuss, that is what we can discuss before choosing IRC network choice. what yo say? | 14:25 |
| fungi | also would be good to know what sort of timeframe the tc/project is comfortable with | 14:26 |
| fungi | (how soon is too soon? how long is too long?) | 14:26 |
| mnaser | gmann: i think it is important to know before anything .. 'do we need to move out of freenode now' | 14:28 |
| evrardjp | good question from fungi, as usual :) | 14:28 |
| mnaser | if we agree that we need to get out of freenode now, then we look at the options | 14:28 |
| gmann | fungi: | 14:30 |
| gmann | +1 | 14:30 |
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| evrardjp | I encourage us to have "more speed, less haste" and think about what we are doing : ) | 14:58 |
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| yoctozepto | good summary on "what to always remember about" ;-) | 15:02 |
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| noonedeadpunk | I kind of missed partially meeting, but was it discussed to also sync privileges for channels? | 15:13 |
| mnaser | noonedeadpunk: that's already been done thanks to fungi's efforts | 15:14 |
| mnaser | for example the tc channel is already registered and all the privs are already taken care of | 15:14 |
| noonedeadpunk | um `You do not have access to the TOPIC command on channel #openstack-ansible` And I'm pretty sure I have here | 15:14 |
| noonedeadpunk | so that's why I asked | 15:14 |
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| mnaser | well, it's definetly registered, so i'll let fungi comment on that | 15:15 |
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| clarkb | the intent is to enable all that if we move, but some of the fiddly bits are still in progress | 15:16 |
| noonedeadpunk | As eventually before project start moving to oftc, they need to get channels "prepared" in terms of topic/description/etc | 15:17 |
| clarkb | noonedeadpunk: I don't think that is necessary personally. We can add that in as we move forward | 15:17 |
| clarkb | it would be nice to have for sure, but not necessary | 15:17 |
| yoctozepto | yeah, the world will not end without it | 15:18 |
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| noonedeadpunk | yep, it won't. But I think that users will try to ensure, that channel has moved "for real"? | 15:20 |
| clarkb | judging by how many people ignore the topics when asking questions etc I really doubt anyone will check the topics :) | 15:25 |
| yoctozepto | hahaha, indeed | 15:25 |
| clarkb | to address the legitimacy problem I think you have to overcommunicate in a variety of methods/systems | 15:25 |
| yoctozepto | ++ | 15:26 |
| fungi | noonedeadpunk: so, the accessbot patches i have up for review will add our global irc chanop volunteers. i also want to add a feature today to allow the accessbot/channels.yaml in openstack/project-config to include per-channel admins and ops which will allow us to not have to trust that people on irc are who they say they are since we can trust code review | 15:36 |
| fungi | as for topics, i'm hoping today to go ahead and replicate the current channel topics, now that we have some confirmation of openstack's preferences | 15:37 |
| fungi | some of that may happen tomorrow though depending on what else is on fire | 15:38 |
| noonedeadpunk | oh, thanks for the info! | 15:42 |
| fungi | noonedeadpunk: though if you want to see the access list for a channel, the command is `/msg chanserv access #whatever list` | 15:44 |
| fungi | most of them for the moment have one of our opendev sysadmins and the opendevaccess bot account set as masters | 15:44 |
| fungi | the latter is the account accessbot will use to bootstrap all the other admins and chanops | 15:45 |
| fungi | i've been testing my code changes on a small subset of our channels to make sure if i get something wrong there's less to clean up | 15:45 |
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| noonedeadpunk | ah, indeed, it's accessbot that's resposible for that. | 16:07 |
| noonedeadpunk | that's crystal clear then:) | 16:07 |
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| gmann | diablo_rojo_phon: if you are around https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/contributor-guide/+/793205 | 16:36 |
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| noonedeadpunk | probably worth making some gerrit topic for changes? | 16:50 |
| fungi | the topic i've been using on my changes so far is "oftc" | 16:53 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: setup.cfg: Replace dashes with underscores https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/791360 | 18:38 |
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| clarkb | Note that ^ isn't necessarily a correct change... I believe that pbr parses setup.cfg and then passes the results to setuptools because that is how pbr works and its use of setup.cfg predates setuptools use of setup.cfg | 18:46 |
| clarkb | unfortunately setuptools has chosen to not maintain compatibility with pbr even though pbrs version comes from an old pep | 18:47 |
| clarkb | this could probably be made better by having pbr accept its normal input and setuptools setup.cfg format as well, but I'm not sure the chagne aboveworks as is if using pbr | 18:47 |
| yoctozepto | interesting | 18:48 |
| yoctozepto | we might have merged too many already | 18:48 |
| yoctozepto | what could go wrong? | 18:48 |
| noonedeadpunk | At least I did some, but we don't use pbr | 18:48 |
| yoctozepto | clarkb: ? | 18:50 |
| clarkb | yoctozepto: those values set in setup.cfg may not end up in the resulting package properly | 18:50 |
| yoctozepto | hmm | 18:51 |
| clarkb | its also possible that it will work if pbr has a default passthrough behavior that works. I haven't had time to look at it closely. But it is important to note that the pbr setup.cfg format is not setuptools | 18:51 |
| yoctozepto | that would be real bad | 18:51 |
| clarkb | so you can't just change to setuptools version and assume its fine | 18:51 |
| clarkb | it would probably be good for something to actually look at what the resulting packages look like and whether or not pbr needs updating to handle the setuptools differences | 18:52 |
| yoctozepto | ok, i;ll grow my backlog even more | 18:53 |
| fungi | clarkb: yoctozepto: noonedeadpunk: recent pbr will parse out the underscore versions from setup.cfg as equivalent to the hyphen entries | 18:54 |
| yoctozepto | oh, cool | 18:54 |
| * yoctozepto trimming backlog | 18:54 | |
| fungi | in order to be compatible with what setuptools expects from that file (even though setuptools isn't the one parsing it in pbr-using cases) | 18:55 |
| fungi | though for some you really need almost absolute latest pbr as there was at least one place where it got things backwards with its aliasing | 18:56 |
| yoctozepto | I think the changes are only on master | 18:56 |
| gmann | these were merged on many proejcts too https://review.opendev.org/q/owner:yangyawei%2540inspur.com+status:merged | 18:58 |
| gmann | also few more also | 18:58 |
| yoctozepto | yes | 18:59 |
| fungi | i guess my point is i think with latest pbr those changes are essentially harmless, but also a waste of contributor and reviewer time | 19:00 |
| yoctozepto | oh well | 19:00 |
| fungi | (and a massive waste of ci resources probably) | 19:01 |
| yoctozepto | better that I don't need to revert them | 19:01 |
| yoctozepto | (true that) | 19:01 |
| fungi | sure, reverting would waste even more of your time and the ci quota | 19:01 |
| clarkb | fungi: well we also can't really control the version of pbr that is used | 19:01 |
| clarkb | fungi: if you don't have it already installed then you get latest. If you have something present already then you get that | 19:01 |
| clarkb | but ya if pbr does the mapping then its probably only an issue in a small set of corner cases | 19:02 |
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| yoctozepto | oh right | 19:02 |
| yoctozepto | clarkb's right | 19:02 |
| fungi | yeah, but for people downloading wheels from pypi, setuptools won't be involved so it comes down to what version of pbr got used in the release jobs | 19:02 |
| yoctozepto | yeah, wheels | 19:03 |
| yoctozepto | but sometimes it installs non-wheel | 19:03 |
| yoctozepto | (misconfig etc.) | 19:03 |
| yoctozepto | oh well | 19:03 |
| yoctozepto | kill it with fire | 19:03 |
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| gmann | ricolin: mnaser diablo_rojo_phon need two more vote on this charter change - https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/790092 | 19:21 |
| diablo_rojo_phon | gmann: looking | 19:24 |
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| jungleboyj | gmann: My son has an academic award presentation tomorrow so I may have to miss the TC meeting. | 19:50 |
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| yoctozepto | oh, that's one lovely reason to miss the meeting | 20:37 |
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| gmann | jungleboyj ack, thanks for update, I updated the 'Absence' section on wiki | 22:48 |
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