Tuesday, 2010-08-03

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anotherjessekinda getting tired of not having a real orm :(00:11
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mtayloranotherjesse: spoke with michael bayer from sqlalchemy - he seemed to think that getting redis support wouldn't be terrible00:20
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justinsbvish: You around?00:33
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notmynamemorning aghaster13:22
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jaypipesStylusEater_work: morning. :)13:40
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StylusEater_workjaypipes: maybe you know the answer to this... but am I correct in assuming hudson pushes the latest successful build for swift to the ppa packages area on launchpad?  I'm writing an SAIO script and wanted to know of a reliable place to grab the distributable?13:55
creihtStylusEater_work: I wouldn't rely on the PPAs for swift itself, we are still working through some packaging stuff13:57
creihtThe dependencies in the PPA should be fine though (webob, eventlet, etc.)13:57
StylusEater_work+creiht: so the safest would be grab the latest from stable?13:59
creihtStylusEater_work: For swift, the best thing currently is to grab the latest code from lp:swift13:59
creihtFor the dependencies the debs in the swift PPA should be fine14:00
StylusEater_work+creiht: ok (was just gonna say if there is such a thing... :-) ) thanks14:00
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alekibangoanotherjesse: talking about orm, i very much like sqlalchemy. but to make it redundant you would need to use cluster of sql servers -- which would take its toll for cloud management purposes :D14:09
redbono no, it's great having 20 or 30 db servers.  no availability problems or anything.14:10
StylusEater_work+redbo: need a sarcasm tag... haha14:13
alekibangomtaylor: please PUSH IT,  sqlalchemy would rock!14:16
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creihtHow much db type stuff actually has to be done?14:18
creihtDoes it really buy you much using sqlalchemy?14:18
* creiht notes that he likes sqlalchemy, but it does have costs14:18
redbolike your soul14:18
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redboI'm not a big fan of ORMs these days, unless you have a bunch of big complicated businessy objects that you need to manage.14:20
jaypipesredbo: better than hacking a specific dkvs' API all over your codebase ;)14:21
creihtjaypipes: I think there can be a happy medium14:22
jaypipesalekibango: the problem with an ORM like SQLAlchemy (even if you use a wrapper like Elixir) is that they simply are not built for async operations.  The trick with Nova is going to be creating an ORM-*like* wrapper that enables us to work with all the persistent objects in a consistent manner regardless of whether the backing data store in a DKVS, a KVS, or an RDBMS...14:23
creihtand since when did Bayer start liking KVS? :)14:23
jaypipesalekibango: I've been hacking on that for 2 weeks and made some progress, but the current codebase is very Redis-specific.14:23
creihtan ORM also seems like a lot of overkill for a KVS14:24
jaypipescreiht: depends on how you are using the KVS. In Nova, a lot of the Redis API is used, and lots of objects are associated with each other...not sure Swift is similar.14:25
creihtjaypipes: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~hudson-openstack/swift/trunk/annotate/head:/swift/common/db.py14:26
creihtIs what we do currently in swift14:26
gholtSwift's KVs in memcached are definitely not relational.14:27
jaypipescreiht: right, that's very SQLiter specific.14:27
gholtI don't think he meant our sqlite stuff, but maybe I'm off. That isn't exactly KVs, but isn't overly relational either, heh.14:27
creihtIt is indeed, but if we wanted to use a different backend (like berkley db) then you can rewrite that one section with the same interface, and you are good to go14:28
creihtStill some work14:28
creihtBut you don't have the ORM overhead14:28
redboThat's probably a pretty leaky abstraction14:29
creihtIt is14:29
jaypipescreiht: which is precisely what something like SQLalchemy already does for you...14:29
creihtbut if we wanted to, we could make it better14:29
creihtIt wasn't really meant to be made like that14:29
creihtjaypipes: If you are alright with the overhead, and it supports the backends, then yes that is fine14:29
redboactually I made that file because EJ didn't like seeing SQL all over the rest of the code.14:29
creihtI like having the SQL in one file :)14:29
redbohe was like, "move it all in one place."14:29
redboand I was like FIEN14:30
creihtSQLAlchemy has a measureable amount of overhead14:30
jaypipescreiht: have you actually measured that?14:30
jaypipescreiht: results?14:30
StylusEater_work+redbo: why would you put sql all over the code? eeek14:30
creihtIt is one of the reasons why we don't use SQLAlchemy any more14:30
jaypipescreiht: what were the results of your findings?14:31
StylusEater_work+redbo: concentrate it one place... make a clean interface, then you can use other dbs much more easily, no?14:31
creihtredbo: do you still have those results?14:31
creihtStylusEater_work: that is closer to what we ended up with14:31
redboI'm pretty sure swift isn't ever going to use a different database14:31
* gholt watches creiht punt to redbo14:31
creihtIt wasn't really designed with that in mind14:32
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creihtjaypipes: if you are planning on using it, shouldn't you do the due dilligence :)14:32
jaypipesredbo: you are thinking in terms of rackspace only.14:32
jaypipescreiht: I already have.14:32
jaypipescreiht: the vast majority of performance issues with SQLAlchemy have to do with poorly written schemas and SQL queries.  At least in my experience.14:33
gholtI can't remember the specific overhead amount for our prior project. It was at least 10% or we probably wouldn't have cared. However, our prior project also had things way over.... relationalized?14:33
StylusEater_work+redbo: why wouldn't one leave it open to other db's?14:34
redbowe didn't replace sqlalchemy because of performance anyway (though it sucked).  It's because we were tired of trying to trick sqlalchemy into doing the queries that we wanted it to.14:34
jaypipesgholt: hehe, good term :)14:34
creihtAnd that's true as well :)14:34
gholtAh, that's right. I'm glad redbo has a memory, unlike me.14:34
* creiht notes that a lot of this part was before I started on the project14:35
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gholtI remember letterj and torch grumbling at us for hours to quite doing stupid queries that crashed things. :)14:35
redbothe DBAs would sit and watch every query the app made and say "WHY IS IT DOING THAT!" and we never had a good answer.14:35
gholtAnd we're like: It's not me... It's the ORM!14:36
jaypipesgholt: yup, that's been my experience as well (not just SQLAlchemy, but many ORMs...)14:36
StylusEater_workgholt: hehe14:37
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jaypipesgholt: it's not the overhead of the ORM really, but that they have a tendency to produce poor SQL queries when the schema is not properly designed or is outside of the "traditional enterprise application SQL schemas"14:37
creihtI'm not totally agains ORMs, though it gets harder to sell me on them now a days14:37
gholtI like magic. In my movies. :)14:38
jaypipesgholt: and it comes to a point of "man, getting this SQL to be good with our schema just isn't worth the effort...let's just write SQL by hand" ;)14:38
letterjIn some cases we would see queries making two trips to the DB.14:38
redboand yeah, when profiling the app, the query compiler in sqlalchemy was always a decent percentage of the runtime.  I wouldn't have cared about that so much, because we can always add more web servers.  But we just weren't doing anything complicated where we needed an object-based interface.14:38
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termiejoshuamckenty: https://code.launchpad.net/~termie/nova/mega_flags/+merge/3131214:38
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creihtjaypipes: I guess where I was getting at, is the DB related stuff that you guys are doing in Nova sufficient enough that the ORM provides enough benefit?14:40
creihtIf it is, then cool14:40
* creiht is still interested to see how an ORM is going interact with a KVS14:40
jaypipescreiht: well...not sure :)  first things first should be an abstraction layer above Redis/SQL.  Then perhaps look at using an ORM ;)14:41
jaypipescreiht: problem with Nova is that the authorization objects are stored in LDAP while the rest of the objects are not.  So, you can't "associate" some objects with each other (in other words you can't associate a project (stored in LDAP) with a Vlan (stored in Redis)  :(14:42
jaypipescreiht: at least not naturally, through the same interface...14:42
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creihthah... sqla should work awesome with LDAP :)14:43
jaypipescreiht: heh14:44
jaypipescreiht: LDAP is complete ass-baggery.14:44
* creiht would love to see the look on Mike's face when someone asks him to write an SQLA backend for ldap14:44
jaypipescreiht: hehe, I've already had an email conversation with Bayer about a Redis backend...was met with a tepid response, but he felt our pain :)14:45
creihtI wonder if he is finally caving to pressure to support KVS, as he has avoided them like the plague in the past14:46
creihtthough I'm still curious as to how KVS are going to work in an ORM14:46
claygcreiht: http://github.com/iamteem/redisco - object mapper for redis14:47
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jaypipescreiht: yeah, he is... http://www.sqlalchemy.org/trac/ticket/151814:50
jaypipescreiht: you can tell from that he's slightly less than thrilled about it ;)14:51
creihtOh I know he is :)14:51
creihtI actually side with him... I don't think SQLAlchemy should support KVS, but that could be a whole other debate :)14:52
redbothere's such a big difference in features between the kvs14:53
hazmatsqlalchemy is not for kvs systems14:53
creihtIt seems like there will be so many problems trying to emulate SQL functionality on top of a KVS14:54
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jaypipesclayg: :)14:54
claygit just SOUNDS like a disaster?14:54
hazmateffectively folks doing kvs systems right their own object mapping layer.. python mongodb has a few nice ones..14:54
jaypipescreiht: ya.  there's that dang transactional thang.14:54
jaypipeshazmat: yup. that's what we're trying to do in Nova...14:55
hazmatwell most of the kvs aren't transactional.. with some exceptions.. so doing object mapping scoped to sessions and transactions is just a programming mismatch waiting for bugs14:55
jaypipeshazmat: ++14:55
hazmatjaypipes, in terms of contributing to nova.. is there a list of things to do..? just go find a bug and implement something?14:56
hazmatreally that question is for anyone ;-)14:56
creihtsomeone needs to make an impedence mismatch abstraction pattern :)14:57
hazmati'd still like to hear some resolution of the eventlet/twisted thing.. at least that would give me an idea of stuff to do (like rip out sync calls)... or drop carrot14:58
gundlachhazmat: check out https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova14:58
hazmatbut maybe just a decent build systems14:58
_0x44gundlach: Has the low-hanging fruit blueprint been created yet?14:58
hazmati was thinking of a buildout14:58
gundlach_0x44: no idea14:58
hazmatalso does anyone know why the current install thingy hardcodes a custom twisted tarball?14:59
_0x44IIRC, it's because twisted needed to be patched or the unit tests would flip out over something silly.14:59
hazmati guess i could do the pyflakes/lint thingy, it would be a good exercise to poke around some more of the code base.14:59
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StylusEater_workhazmat: I have some idle hosts if you need some for a build farm.15:01
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hazmatStylusEater_work, thanks, no need atm, i've got a few..15:07
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notmynamecreiht: I'm starting to work on merging the stats system for swift. would it make sense to put it under a "stats" dir under swift (/swift/stats/*)?15:17
notmynameor ./logging/? or what?15:18
creihtMaybe we should talk about that this evening?15:18
notmynamereally, I don't feel that way about you. I'm happily married ;-)15:19
creihtthis afternoon?15:19
notmynameah, are you in the office today?15:19
creihtWill be all week15:20
notmynameah, ok15:20
creihtI have some ideas, but probably easier to hash it out in person15:20
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notmynameok. fwiw, I was thinking that it makes more sense to put all the stats stuff in one place rather than spread out (account stats under account, access logs under proxy, and the collating somewhere else)15:22
creihtIn it's own project? :)15:22
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notmynameof course, if we go that route, why stop there? why not have each component in its own project and swift becomes the aggregate of each ;-)15:24
notmyname(that's not a serious request)15:24
creihtnotmyname: be careful what you ask for :)15:24
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_0x44If stats was it's own project, it could be shared between nova and swift.15:31
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notmynamethat's an interesting thought15:33
* creiht ponders15:33
notmynamein porting this to swift (from internal cloud files stuff), I'm trying to make it a little more generic15:33
notmynamethe basic idea is that log files are uploaded to cloud files then parsed later according to their type (stat logs have their own parser, proxy [access] logs have their own parser, and, internally, we'll have another for CDN logs)15:34
notmynameso I'm not sure if the first stab at it will be generic enough for nova, but it may work. the biggest hurdle will be storing the logs. it's not too bad for swift, since it is a storage product :-)15:35
_0x44So in order for nova to share the stats piece, it would have to write logs to swift.15:35
_0x44Which probably couples them too closely, unless it's optional. Is it worth the work for optional?15:36
notmynameperhaps, but that's not a key piece. it's just really convenient for swift to do that15:36
gholtDoesn't nova have a backing store? That they're considering using swift for?15:37
notmynamethe point is being able to access the logs (which are large) from a single place15:37
_0x44gholt: Yes, but I don't know if considering using swift for means requiring swift to use nova15:37
gholtBut yeah, I guess thinking outside just swift/nova is a good idea, heh.15:37
gholtI'm not sure if diluting stats that far would end up making it a whole 'nother project just to use it with swift though.15:39
creihtI say for now we put it in swift, and when you guys are ready to talk about stats for nova, we can see if what we have is usable, and if so we can extract it then15:40
notmynameI like that idea. it will certainly allow something to get out there sooner15:41
creihtnotmyname: never thought you would hear me say that, would ya? :)15:42
notmynameit is a little surprising ;-)15:42
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edaynotmyname, _0x44: Having stats/logs/... be a shared component is certainly on the roadmap, this was the whole 'openstack firehose' discussion. Swift could be one place to store that data (probably the default for large installations that use swift for other things too)15:48
_0x44eday: How far along the roadmap? 3 months or 9?15:48
edaybut we don't want to *require* logs be stored there at this generic layer, you may not care about saving this data anywhere and instead just want to run it through filters for notifications15:48
eday_0x44: I have no idea where, but just something to keep in mind when working out the APIs needed now :)15:49
notmynameeday: I think the idea for the stats system in swift is as an additional component that's not required for a system that stores data. but it's something that's sure nice to have as a starting point and one of the first things "management" is going to ask for in a company that installs swift/openstack15:50
_0x44If it's not something we're working on for the current release, then doing a semi-generic stats thing in swift and abstracting it out when we start working on the firehose is probably the best course of action _now_15:50
creihteday: That's why I'm saying that we keep it in swift now, and when we get to the point to talk about shared stats, then we can decide if we want to use what we have in swift as a base, or start from scratch15:50
* creiht doesn't want to abstract just for abstraction's sake :)15:51
edaycreiht, _0x44: Agreed, don't do too much now, but just something to keep in mind.15:52
edayor if you guys are feeling really ambitious and have the time, start working out the abstraction so Nova could start using it sooner :)15:54
notmynamethe "have the time" is the kicker, isn't it :-)15:55
creihtWe're doing good just to get the stats stuff into swift :)15:56
aghasterquick question, is swift supported on windows server 2008?15:57
* creiht has no idea :)15:57
notmynameI like the idea of having some general stats integration, but I don't want to delay things waiting for perfect abstraction and portability. put it in swift now, port to a generic swift/nova solution later15:57
gholtWe knew someone would ask that eventually. :)15:58
notmynameaghaster: we develop against ubuntu currently15:58
gholtAs a client, windows has been used just fine. Not as a swift cluster however.15:58
edaynotmyname: well, nothing is going to be perfect, just something to start iterating over as folks have time.. but yeah, def don't worry if there is no time for it15:58
StylusEater_workaghaster: why not use the native OS?15:59
aghasterStylusEater: I'm all for ubuntu, but I just wanted to make sure that it's required. It'd be for work, and they're all using windows here. Getting the IT guy to set up a Linux box is just more effort than a windows box16:00
StylusEater_workaghaster: hrm...ok16:01
notmynameaghaster: it's never been done. there are a few linux-specific things that may have to be patched (fallocate), and you would need a FS that supports xattrs16:01
creihtaghaster: We haven't targeted windows, though that isn't to say that it could be made to work on windows with some changes16:01
notmynamebut if you get it working, awesome16:02
creihtOf course patches are welcome :)16:02
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notmynameperhaps if those linux-specific things were worked around, other OSs (like BSD) could be used too16:03
StylusEater_work+notmyname: +116:03
creihtnotmyname: I only OpenBSD variants don't support xattrs very well16:03
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creihtor I guess I should say, FreeBSD supports them16:04
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notmynameseems like the answer is the same as the previous discussion: "creiht doesn't want to abstract just for abstraction's sake :)"16:07
notmynameif there are useful patches that make lack of xattrs and fallocate work, yay. but not if it makes everything else worse16:07
creihtnotmyname: actually redbo already fixed the fallocate issue16:08
notmynameoh, cool16:08
notmynamewell then, ignore everything I said about that16:08
creihtIf it can't load the lib, it logs a warning and continues16:08
* notmyname is off to lunch16:08
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gundlachany reason http://wiki.openstack.org/InstallationNova20100729 points people to bazaar download site instead of sudo apt-get install bzr?16:48
gundlachlike, do we need to be working with the tip or something?16:48
gundlachi'm going to change it -- feel free to change it back if i'm wrong16:50
jk0there was a reason for that16:52
jk0something in the newer release that's not in the Ubuntu repo, I think16:52
gundlachk, if you're sure, i'll revert it -- any idea who to ask what the specific feature was that we needed?  i remember talk about new features going into the tip but didn't remember them being vital for working with nova16:55
hazmatdo each of the openstack projects require different contributor agreements or is the swift one good for nova?16:55
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jk0gundlach: sorry, I don't recall16:58
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notmynamehazmat: there is one for all of openstack16:58
gundlachjk0: k16:58
hazmatnotmyname, thks16:58
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uvirtbotNew bug: #613075 in nova "Support authentication" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61307517:15
uvirtbotNew bug: #613076 in nova "Support JSON or XML in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61307617:15
zuldid nova land in ubuntu archive yet?17:17
uvirtbotNew bug: #613077 in nova "Support content compression in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61307717:20
uvirtbotNew bug: #613079 in nova "Support persistent connections in the API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61307917:20
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edaygundlach: If we create those as blueprints instead of bugs, we could do dependency tracking in LP (new API components)17:22
gundlachoh geez, i'm going to be spamming this room17:23
gundlacheday: sorry that i'm new to launchpad -- so what's the difference between a blueprint and a bug, then?17:23
gundlachare you saying bugs don't support dependency, marking as duplicate, things like that?  they're more lightweight?17:23
edaygundlach: well, I see bugs as things that are broken in the system (existing functionality), where blueprints are todo items17:24
uvirtbotNew bug: #613082 in nova "Support efficient polling in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61308217:26
edaygundlach: both allow for branch/dev tracking, but blueprints also allow for dependency tracking. For example, "open stack API" could be an umbrella blueprint with the others listed. Obviously we don't need to do all that if its just a couple folks working on it, but it can be useful for new folks/managers/... to see whats going on17:26
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gundlacheday: well, i'll do whatever you think is best in launchpad's mindset.  i usually treat a bug tracker as a place for any kind of issue -- bug/enhancement/task/other.17:27
gundlachi'm tagging all these bugs as "api" so they are in an "umbrella" in that sense -- is that enough management, do you think?17:28
gundlach(see https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bugs?field.tag=api)17:29
edaygundlach: I think either will be fine, just wanted to let you know about blueprints in case you had not used them :)17:29
edaygundlach: since you've already got some in here, probably doesn't make sense to move them now17:30
gundlacheday: thanks :)  i had seen blueprints but forgot their existence.17:30
gundlachok, will stick with bugs.17:30
gundlachthe dichotomy makes me itch for a unified system, but that's probably just because i spend all my spare time in google project hosting, which puts everything into the same basket.17:30
edaygundlach: yeah. I see them as something broken in current vs new feature todo. that could just be a tag though in the same system.17:31
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edaygundlach: mtaylor also has opinions on bugs vs blueprints, as you probably saw on the mailing list :)17:32
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gundlacheday: that's a pretty classic argument -- isn't the lack of a required feature a bug?  etc :)  tdd makes all that fuzzy17:32
edaygundlach: yup :)17:32
gundlacheday: probably did, but i guess it washed over me as i didn't have enough familiarity with launchpad to really grasp it17:32
gundlachanyway, thx for the input, and i guess i'll steamroll ahead with bug reporting :)17:32
edaygundlach: have you, or have you seen other apps, that stacked WSGI interfaces in the same app?17:38
gundlacheday: maybe i'm misunderstanding you, but yes -- one of the major selling points of WSGI (and Ruby's equivalent, Rack) is that you can stack them to make "middleware"17:39
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edaygundlach: aha, I just stumbled upon that page too. I see17:40
edaygundlach: I've not done any WSGI stuff before, didn't realize it was designed for this17:40
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gundlachyeah, it helps tease apart layers of functionality while not adding new server "binaries" to the chain17:41
gundlachso i was hoping this would ease your mind about added complexity for small installations, while helping break the system into smaller pieces, and making it easy to pull a part into its own binary if needed for scaling17:41
gundlachat a previous gig i did authentication as a Rack middleware calling sideways to an authentication service17:42
gundlachthe middleware could be used by lots of different systems that needed to authenticate, and it itself used an authentication library that could be embedded deeper in the system.17:42
gundlachman, until i just said that i didn't realize how germaine that architecture was to our discussion :)17:42
edaygundlach: I think WSGI middleware is exactly what we need looking at it. easy to chain either in process or as proxies17:44
redboswift works the same17:44
gundlacheday: oh good, i'm glad, as will be jorge i expect :)17:45
uvirtbotNew bug: #613090 in nova "Support rate limiting in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61309017:45
uvirtbotNew bug: #613092 in nova "Support programmatic rate limit querying in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61309217:51
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mtaylorgundlach: I see them as descrbing what vs. how ... bug == what's wrong/what's missing - is a description of the problem - the blueprint is the how - is a description of the implementation or solution17:54
gundlachmtaylor: ah, i see.17:55
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gundlachthough it seems then like every bug would require a blueprint?  (maybe just the large enough bugs)17:56
mtaylorgundlach: I think just the large enough bugs - some bugs the description of the problem is really all you need17:56
gundlachgot it.  so is it normal practice for a (large enough bug) report to then link to a blueprint for its solution?17:56
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mtaylorgundlach: but if blueprints had a decent conversation mechanism like merge requests did, it would be a great place to hold things like "what do we do for an orm" or something17:57
mtaylorgundlach: in theory. in practice we don't want to kill devs and I think it's still a little clunkier than it could be17:57
mtaylorgundlach: but I think that would be the goal if we can get the tooling worked out properly17:58
gundlachmtaylor: i see.  "we" -- are you a contributor to launchpad?  (pardon if we've met already, there are too many irc handles about :)17:58
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_0x44mtaylor: I thought the solution to blueprints sucking was blueprints + etherpad?18:00
mtaylorgundlach: hehe. in theory ... my job description at rackspace involves dev tooling which extends to hacking on launchpad - but so far my todo list hasn't gotten cleared down to the launchpad fixes yet18:00
mtaylor_0x44: I think that's an excellent solution to the conversation/document side of things18:01
gundlachmtaylor: devil's advocate -- why would it be bad if we deleted the bug tracker concept from launchpad entirely?  is it just that blueprints require more work to enter (aka the UI needs streamlining)?18:03
edaymtaylor, _0x44: THat's what I've been doing (spec URL is a etherpad link)18:03
mtaylorgundlach: well, the bug tracker interface is much more advanced for people reporting bugs and interacting with devs and stuff18:04
_0x44mtaylor, eday: Yeah, I thought the consensus was that's what we should be doing.18:04
edaymtaylor, gundlach: I think I'm starting to converge on wanting a single tool that can suit both.18:04
gundlachmtaylor: ok.  in the 5 or 6 bugs i entered i saw a paucity of controls (tie to another project or milestone, add an attachment, and leave a comment) but i must have not discovered all the features.18:05
redbowin 218:06
gundlacheday: certainly would make launchpad feel less busy to a newbie like me.  i feel like it's covered in links that all do different flavors of the same job, and i don't know quite which to use for what purpose.18:06
mtayloreday: I think (I hope) there are some UI things that could be done to make them behave more sensibly18:07
mtayloreday: and to feel like one integrated tool rather that two different somewhat overlapping tools18:07
anotherjessejaypipes: around?18:07
gundlachmtaylor: +118:08
edaymtaylor: yeah18:08
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edaygundlach: so, WSGI on twisted looks to be suboptimal at this point. it uses a different thread pool for wsgi apps (not part of the main event loop). There is some guy doing async-wsgi interface, but that was just in April18:25
creihteday: WSGI is a no go for twisted, even more of a reason to use eventlet ;)18:26
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uvirtbotNew bug: #613117 in nova "Support versioning in the API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61311718:26
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edaycreiht: so, looking at the swift wsgi code, it looks like you fork and each child accept()s directly on the shared socket?18:44
edaycreiht: is the main reason for this just to use all the cores on a system? or do you see children dieing from bugs?18:48
redboboth, though we don't have children die these days.18:48
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* creiht notes that we only currently "stack" auth with wsgi in swift, but there are other things that we would like to pull out into wsgi middleware18:54
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edaycreiht: perhaps the to-be-abstracted openstack-auth project will provide both the raw API and a WSGI middleware layer19:00
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creihteday: possibly, but depends on what you want for the domain knowledge for authing for the products19:02
creihtso for example, the auth would need to understand swift's url structure to correctly know which part is the account to send in auth19:02
creihtI imagine that auth could provide a library, or module that gives primative auth functions, that then swift calls from its wsgi19:03
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creihteday: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~hudson-openstack/swift/trunk/annotate/head:/swift/common/auth.py19:04
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creihtIn the above file, the middleware would be swift's responsibility, but the auth method could come from a shared auth library19:05
edaycreiht: yeah. if a WSGI middleware layer could not be cleanly abstracted, no point. but I thought it might be with a couple params (I've not looked yet)19:08
edaycreiht: either way, probably just a few lines and then use the auth API :)19:08
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uvirtbotNew bug: #613137 in nova "Use stable host keys for SSH" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61313719:26
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jaypipesanotherjesse-foo: back now...on vacation in Florida..just back from a "lovely" afternoon of sweating my ass off.19:38
edayjaypipes: haha, it's not a dry heat down there? :)19:45
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_0x44jaypipes: I'm writing my political representatives demanding that we switch from Fahrenheit to Celsius so the summers will be cooler.19:50
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anotherjessejaypipes: so - we are debating moving to sqlalchemy or sqlobject for our backend19:55
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edayanotherjesse: do you have a backend picked out yet that will give you sql?20:00
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anotherjesseeday: well, we are debating between mysql & postgres - with the preference being postgres, but devcamcar will disagree20:01
alekibangoanotherjesse:  jaypipes:  SQLAlchemy is really good20:01
anotherjessealekibango: I've used it a couple years ago for a django project where the default orm wasn't good enough20:01
creihteday: yup20:01
alekibangoi got in touch with sqlalchemy via turbogears20:02
alekibangoand i must say i still am in aw20:02
alekibangothey did really good job20:02
creihtsqlobject is still around?20:02
anotherjessehttp://www.sqlobject.org/ - dead?20:02
creihtWell the question was more meant in terms of actively supported?20:03
alekibangohttp://www.sqlalchemy.org/  FTW20:03
anotherjesseunderstood - checking mailing lists / ...20:03
alekibangonever seen sqlobject but imho   this speaks volumes: http://google.com/trends?q=sqlalchemy%2Csqlobject20:04
creihtsqlobject has been around a while, but lost a lot of intrest when sqlalchemy came out20:04
creihtThe only other real orm people push a lot is storm20:05
anotherjesseis "south" still the way to do migrations or was that a django thing?20:05
alekibangostorm manual under construction is not looking good20:06
alekibangosqlalchemy is there and its real20:06
edayanotherjesse: have you though about making the data store a bit less shared yet? for example, not letting API poke into it? This is one of the things i've been thinking about lately20:06
alekibangojust imagine having all data in replicated database available via sqlalchemy  - that would ROCK :)20:07
anotherjesseeday: hmm, I was thinking the oposite - that the workers shouldn't have write priviledges20:07
anotherjesseeday: since then if a host node was compromised it limits the damage20:07
edayanotherjesse: is that really a concern for you? (host node being comp.) what about if API server was? or message queue?20:08
edayanotherjesse: in other words, do you see that as your weakest link?20:09
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anotherjesseeday: it isn't that the api server or queue is inherently secure, but we can improve each - for the queue I was talking with the chef guys and the idea of messages being signed by the sender20:10
anotherjesseeday: and the api server has the weakness of being exposed to the world - so definitely need to work on securing it20:11
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edayanotherjesse: I was thinking in terms of data consistency and less dependencies. If host nodes were the source of data (and datastore was really just a backup for them), then scheduler/API nodes could just keep a subset of data reported from the host worker (whatever they need t answer/route requests).20:11
anotherjesseheh, that was how nova 0.1 worked20:11
edayanotherjesse: why did you move away from that model?20:11
anotherjessethe api server got updates from host nodes - and if the api server dies it takes 10-20 seconds to repopulate it20:11
anotherjessethe reason for moving away was data consistency20:12
anotherjessespecifically of the network information20:12
anotherjessewhen you allocate an instance you need to know what IP is safe to give out, ...20:12
edayanotherjesse: the host nodes can cache and only ask for updates after a timestamp on start, don't need to dump all state from each worker20:12
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edayanotherjesse: ahh, I see network address delegation almost as another app that could have workers and shared data store20:13
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anotherjesseeday: we spent some time thinking about zookeeper (and other paxos systems) as a way of keeping that "configuration" - which would be separate from most of the instance state20:14
anotherjessethere were other questions like - who owns the fact that an instance & volume are associated20:15
anotherjesseeday: so - you are thinking a "central" sql store isn't a good idea20:16
anotherjessefor each "region"20:17
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edayanotherjesse: ahh, I'm thinking about something simpler than paxos-like systems. just a simple pool of workers with a shared datastore for specific things like network and volume assignment. but host/guest info would be kept on host only (and subsets of that data bubbled up from there)20:17
edayanotherjesse: yeah.. trying to reduce dependencies on API/schedler layers20:18
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anotherjesseeday: comprendo - vish has been working on the first of the api layer changes - which removes the "network controller" from the api20:18
* mtaylor tosses out his approval of sqlalchemy as an orm ... and his agreement with devcamcar about postgres not being the right choice for a sql solution for this type of env20:18
edayanotherjesse: I'm in the process of forming an email proposal, but here is a draft of the arch: http://oddments.org/tmp/architecture_new.png20:19
anotherjessewhich means that network address allocation happens during "run instances" but all the other network instanciation can occur later during the host launching the instances20:19
edayanotherjesse: this would be a region20:19
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anotherjesseeday: when you say "guest table" in a worker - does that mean a sqlite table?20:20
edayanotherjesse: and a request like create guest would be a message that bounces from worker to worker until done (image verifucation, scheduler, IP assignment, then host)20:20
edayanotherjesse: I'm thinking just the list of VMs running with metadata, could be built into hypervisor, could be another data store20:21
anotherjesseso - the thing that made us move away from that is the requirement that IP assignment occurs during the HTTP request cycle for run instance20:22
edayanotherjesse: the idea is that the canonical data store for instances doesn't need to be accessed anywhere but from the host20:22
anotherjesseand needing to be certain that we don't re-allocate the ip20:22
alekibangoeday: that last article of yours is really interesting20:22
devcamcarmtaylor: thoughts on sqlalchemy vs sqlobject?20:23
mtaylorobject is essentially dead20:23
anotherjessemtaylor: why no postgres?20:23
edayanotherjesse: if a HTTP request needs that, it could wait until the network worker assigns it. the openstack API will probably have a non-blocking version too that just gives a urn that can be used to lookup IP later too20:23
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* jsmith wonders why no postgres as well20:24
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alekibangoalchemy +10020:24
devcamcaranotherjesse: i'm not anti-postgres, just have a lot more experience with mysql20:24
mtayloranotherjesse: postgres isn't designed for lightweight scaleout architectures - it scales most effectively in the same way that oracle scales effectively - by throwing more spindles at a problem20:24
devcamcari do like that its open source20:24
edayalekibango: yeah, I'd still like to test more frameworks too, not enough time :)20:24
mtayloranotherjesse: postgres is a great database - it's just designed to handle a different set of problems20:24
anotherjessemtaylor: I was under the (untested) impression that 9.x changed that20:24
jsmithmtaylor: In times past, that was true.  With modern versions of PostgreSQL, it scales almost as well as MySQL20:25
alekibangodevcamcar: for years postgres is superior...  just mysql worked better on windows for years so it got popular20:25
creiht9.x does change that20:25
devcamcarmtaylor: i just was looking at sqlobject earlier.  it looks a bit simpler but if development is stalled then its a moot point20:25
jsmithmtaylor: Especially if you add foreign keys, transactions, etc.20:25
* alekibango found this today: http://postgres-xc.sourceforge.net/20:25
mtaylorjsmith: well. you shouldn't do that if you want to scale :)20:25
* creiht notes that the drizzle devs might be a little mysql biased :)20:25
mtaylornot at all20:26
jsmithmtaylor: It all depends on your workload20:26
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mtaylorI tel people to use postgres when it's appropriate all the time20:26
* jsmith used to run one of the five (known) largest MySQL installations in the world20:26
mtayloras a mysql consultant, I used to tell clients to use postgres20:26
devcamcarmtaylor: seems that its down to between sqlalchemy and sqlobject.  sqlalchemy is probably the best choice given the ecosystem around it20:26
alekibangoeven i use both, but i must say i like postgresql more20:26
alekibangomysql is just simple hack which is better than grep a bit20:26
jsmithI learned enough about MySQL to prefer PostgreSQL20:26
edayjust fyi, I don't think we'll be hitting many scaling issues with the data store, especially if we don't share it between components :)20:26
alekibangojsmith: my thoughts :D20:27
creihtmtaylor: anyways... shouldn't it be using drizzle anyways? ;)20:27
edaywe're not talking about that much data, even for large installations20:27
mtaylorcreiht: well, that's sort of where I was going to go ...20:27
jsmithFrom a licensing standpoint, PostgreSQL makes things much easier as well20:27
alekibangoeday: but we need reliable HA database on multiple servers right?20:27
mtaylorthe thing here is that postgres has a decent amount of overhead in terms of spinning up a postgres on each node20:27
alekibangomysql might even die soon as a project, but some forks are on the way anyway20:27
creihtWhy are we even talking about rational databases for scalable distributed systems anyways ;)20:28
mtaylorcreiht: because nothing else actually works yet :)20:28
* mtaylor stops being snarky20:28
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devcamcarcreiht: i doubt we'll be scaling to billions of instances any time soon :)20:28
edayalekibango: yeah, HA is still an issue for some parts, but even then we don't need strong consistency20:28
mtaylordevcamcar: yes - and the sqlalchemy dev folks are really good to work with - very responsive20:28
alekibangodevcamcar: think BIG20:28
edaycreiht: ++ :)20:28
alekibangoif you can make sqlalchemy work with that replicated storage i never worked with - (forgot the name) - that would be very nice. something small and reliable20:29
jsmithIf "eventually consistent" is OK, what about Cassandra?20:30
alekibangodevcamcar:  http://www.wikivs.com/wiki/MySQL_vs_PostgreSQL20:30
* jsmith throws out a random idea20:30
anotherjessejsmith: it is ok for reads, but not for things like network allocation20:30
mtaylorcassandra devs will happily tell you cassandra is not a general purpose solution20:30
devcamcaralekibango: sweet, thanks20:30
uvirtbotNew bug: #613156 in nova "Support GET /servers and GET /servers/detail in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61315620:30
uvirtbotNew bug: #613157 in nova "Support POST /servers in the API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61315720:30
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alekibangodevcamcar:  http://www.wikivs.com/wiki/MySQL_vs_PostgreSQL#Pro_PostgreSQL  <- this part20:31
alekibangoand yes its old info, but the score is similar during all last 10 years20:32
redboI'm a postgres fan, but it's been a huge headache for us.20:32
redbo(not that I mean mysql would be better)20:33
mtaylorredbo: what have the headaches been?20:33
alekibangoyes - the new sqlite might be interestng too :D20:33
mtaylorand I wonder if I could solve them for you in drizzle?20:33
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anotherjessedoes sqlalchemy do a good job of abstracting the need for us deciding mysql vs. postgres?20:33
mtayloranotherjesse: yes20:33
alekibangothey have very nice feature in last version - write ahead logging20:34
anotherjessemtaylor: then the only major question I have - is how do people manage schema in the sqlalchemy world?20:34
alekibangosqlalchemy supports mysql, postgresql, sqlite20:34
mtayloranotherjesse: and I spoke with the sqlalchmey guys about adding redis support20:34
alekibangoif taht would be solition, go ahead FTW20:34
mtayloranotherjesse: it's been a couple of years since I've managed a full-on sqlalchemy install myself, so I don't know what the state of the art is there20:35
alekibangoanotherjesse: i can help with that.20:36
uvirtbotNew bug: #613158 in nova "Support <personality> when creating a server via API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61315820:36
uvirtbotNew bug: #613159 in nova "Support GET /servers/<id> in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61315920:36
uvirtbotNew bug: #613162 in nova "Support PUT /servers/<id> in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61316220:36
uvirtbotNew bug: #613164 in nova "Support DELETE /servers/<id> in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61316420:36
mtaylorI know they were working on a sqlalchemy-based migrations tool a couple of years ago - I can't imagine that's not come along nicely :)20:36
anotherjessemtaylor: given that we are running a verison of this for users, we need to have a way to migrate as we deploy new versions20:36
mtayloranotherjesse: totally20:36
anotherjessewhich is where the KVS kinda falls down - just like we had to create our own ORM, we have to create our own migration system20:36
* creiht has yet to see an orm migration tool that actually worked fairly well20:37
anotherjessetoo easy to just change things20:37
comstudsoren around?20:37
redbomtaylor: oh you know, per-server limits on write transactions, servicing real time requests on multi-TB databases, that sort of stuff.  When a server goes down, it's a multi-hour maintenance to get a new replica online.20:37
devcamcarmtaylor: http://code.google.com/p/sqlalchemy-migrate/20:37
redboas we add shards, the maintenance doesn't scale20:37
devcamcarcompatible with current 0.6.x20:37
mtaylorredbo: yeah - management of N db servers is certainly something high on our roadmap :)20:38
redbowell, I mean like the administration is O(n) for the number of servers20:38
devcamcarcreiht: south migrations for django is actually pretty decent20:38
devcamcarbut thats pretty specific20:38
mtaylorredbo: yeah20:38
mtaylorredbo: which is suck once you're talking about having N=100020:38
alekibangoanotherjesse:  schema migration in SA works...20:39
redboour big db servers are really expensive, too20:39
alekibangobut i choosed to not use it :D20:39
mtaylorredbo: well yeah - if management of them is O(n) - then it makes much more sense to have less, bigger shards20:40
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mtaylorredbo: if they play nicely with each other and management is less easier, then having more smaller cheaper shards is easier to deal with20:40
anotherjessealekibango: what would you choose then?20:40
alekibangoanotherjesse:  for what?20:40
redbomtaylor: it'd also be nice if I had a cookie20:41
anotherjessealekibango: for schema migrations20:41
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alekibangoi am still reading above, this goes so fast :D20:41
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uvirtbotNew bug: #613165 in nova "Support GET /servers/<id>/ips in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61316520:41
uvirtbotNew bug: #613168 in nova "Support PUT and DELETE /servers/<id>/ips/public/<address> in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61316820:41
uvirtbotNew bug: #613169 in nova "Support server reboot in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61316920:41
alekibangosqlalchemy-migrate <- i tried this one, but decided not to use it20:41
redbowe used that, it was okay20:41
anotherjessealekibango: what was the reason behind not using it?20:41
alekibangono need to hack more stuff that i need20:42
alekibangoit works20:42
redboNow I'm not saying you shouldn't use a database, just it didn't work for us for real time transactions with billions of records.  It caused a lot of availability problems and was a major bottleneck on write speed.20:43
alekibangofor me without migrating all db - i have tools to migrate parts i need and that makes me happy enough to kill the rest of the db i have when i migrate to new version20:43
alekibangoimho i lost myself in the chat, what should be the database for?20:43
mtaylorredbo: well yeah. there's only one database out there I know of that can handle real time transactions with billions of records - but most people have problems administering it20:43
anotherjessealekibango: we're getting frustrated with not having a real orm20:44
redbomtaylor: what we have with swift is basically our giant tables sharded out to a bazillion sqlite dbs. :)20:44
mtaylorredbo: ah yes. :)20:44
alekibangofor openstack metadata?20:44
anotherjessealekibango: aye20:45
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alekibangoi would say sqlalchemy + some light backend, which will work reliably20:45
redbowith automatic replication and replica placement and it mostly manages itself20:45
alekibangosqlalchemy supports some different databases20:45
mtaylorredbo: at some point I'd love to make a patch to test using ndb ... just for shits and giggles... but I have _way_ too much on my plate to do that right now20:45
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anotherjessealekibango: I don't like that sqlite reuses primary keys20:45
alekibangoi dont like sqlite also - concurrent access might be a problem20:46
alekibangoand how to make it replicated?20:46
anotherjesseso - mysql/postgres via sqlalchemy for now20:46
devcamcaranotherjesse: i don't like sqlite because it doesn't support alter table20:46
alekibangohow to make operations atomic?20:46
redboWe had a bsddb based database at one point.  I was looking at HailDB last night.  sqlite works extremely well.20:46
uvirtbotNew bug: #613171 in nova "Support server rebuild in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61317120:46
alekibangoyes imho SA + mysql/postgres20:46
uvirtbotNew bug: #613172 in nova "Support server resize (& confirm & revert) in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61317220:46
uvirtbotNew bug: #613175 in nova "Support Flavors operations in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61317520:46
mtaylorSA + mysql/postgres ++20:47
creihtsqlite can do a lot more than most people give it credit for :)20:47
alekibangoanotherjesse: mysql supports some cluster based operations but its kinda hackety hack20:47
alekibangoyes i use it right now :D20:47
mtayloralekibango: depends on which backend you're talking about20:47
alekibangowith SA...  but i hate the fact that i cant (sqlite) modify columns20:47
alekibangoi mean tables20:47
alekibangoit lacks some really good features20:48
alekibangoso sqlalchemy migration is not that easy with it20:48
mtaylorSA + mysql/postgres means that folks who know how to adminster postgres clusters can do that, and folks who know how to do the same with mysql or drizzle can do that too20:48
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alekibangomtaylor: right20:48
anotherjesseso, then we have eday's question - which is - is this the wrong direction20:49
creihtIs there a blueprint or wiki page talking more about the problem being solved?20:50
alekibangoi found SA to make me much more productive - when i got used to it (which took few days)20:50
mtaylorcould be. I think it depends on where we're imagining this database or set of databases to go ... are we talking about replacing the current redis that's there? or is this for something different?20:50
alekibangoi still am not a guru on SA but i works pretty well for simple cases without much headache20:50
uvirtbotNew bug: #613178 in nova "Support POST /images in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61317820:50
uvirtbotNew bug: #613180 in nova "Support GETting backup schedules in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61318020:50
uvirtbotNew bug: #613182 in nova "Support creation/deletion of backup schedules in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61318220:50
* alekibango needs to study redis20:50
alekibangoaha, so not SQL, but key value :D20:51
alekibangooh mistake :D20:51
uvirtbotNew bug: #613177 in nova "Support Image GET operations in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61317720:51
uvirtbotNew bug: #613179 in nova "Support DELETE /images/<id> in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61317920:51
alekibangoredis is weaker compared to mysql/postgres...  but if redis is light, fast and needs no administration, might be way to go...20:53
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alekibangohttp://pgsnake.blogspot.com/2010/04/postgres-91-release-theme.html  <-- this is much  fun. the guy almost scared me20:55
uvirtbotNew bug: #613187 in nova "Support GETting shared ip groups in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61318720:56
uvirtbotNew bug: #613189 in nova "Support creating shared IP groups in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61318920:56
uvirtbotNew bug: #613190 in nova "Support deleting shared IP groups in API" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61319020:56
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mtaylordevcamcar: you're in wa?21:01
alekibangomaybe - idea - having ORM used with redis makes little sense as rdis is not R - it would be OKV (object key value)... am i right?21:01
achew22I'm going through the instructions at http://wiki.openstack.org/NovaInstallFestInstructions and I got to the part where you start bin/nova-api and it is giving me the error gflags.UnrecognizedFlagError: Unknown command line flag 'fake_users' should I not be passing that in?21:02
devcamcarmtaylor: in seattle21:02
mtaylordevcamcar: me too21:02
devcamcarmtaylor: hah, nice!  i'm about 8 blocks north of pike market21:02
mtaylordevcamcar: hah. I'm about 2 blocks south of pike :)21:03
mtaylorit is truly a small world :)21:03
edaybefore deciding on a data store, I think we should decide what we are storing in there exactly, and the operations around it. it may make sense if keep the same data model, but I'm not convinced that is the one we want long term21:03
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devcamcarmtaylor: i'm watching you right now, mwahah21:03
alekibangoeday: good point21:03
* mtaylor goes to put on pants21:03
devcamcarthe killer is in the house!21:03
alekibangothis needs to be clarified21:03
creihteday: yeah that is what I was trying to get at :)21:03
edayanotherjesse: What major concerns do you have around the arch I am drafting up?21:03
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alekibangomaybe we should start some etherpad page about this?21:04
alekibangowriting it all down in one place21:04
edayalekibango: I'm already drafting up text around the data flow, canonical sources, and all that. was going to post to mailing list later today21:05
alekibangohttp://etherpad.openstack.org/pieKQT8fRB  <-- etherpad page would not hurt21:05
alekibangoand i never used etherpad and this is my oportunity to have some fun with it21:06
edaygundlach: geez, lots of bug notifications in my email :)21:07
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edaygundlach: in other news, I have a eventlet server running with layered wsgi interfaces and patched amqp lib so everything is non-blocking21:08
edaygundlach: so, I think this would work quite well21:08
achew22are there any openstack ppas?21:09
creihteday: woot21:09
edayachew22: yes, looking...21:10
edayachew22: https://launchpad.net/~nova-core for nova stuff21:10
edayachew22: https://launchpad.net/~swift-core for swift21:11
mtaylorachew22: ppa:nova-core/ppa and ppa:swift-core/ppa if you're an add-apt-repository fan21:11
alekibangoSQLALCHEMY supported DBS: http://www.sqlalchemy.org/docs/dbengine.html#supported-databases21:12
achew22is nova-core/ppa acceptable?21:12
mtaylorachew22: what do you mean?21:13
achew22is that new enough that it would run?21:13
achew22it was built 2010-07-1621:13
mtayloroh - no, we need to upload new packages to that one21:14
achew22hey! mtaylor someone told me to look for your PPA21:14
mtaylorachew22: all of the dev depends in there are good21:14
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mtaylorachew22: yeah - we're working on getting those updated. ... the ubuntu python guys decided to do a full rebuild of every bloody python package across all of ubuntu - so it sort of stole most of the build slaves21:15
achew22Ah, but some day soon it will get up to date? (i.e. that is the ppa to pull from because it will get updated eventually)21:16
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vish1hi everyone, did i miss anyting?21:21
edayvish1: hey! you missed everything :)21:22
vish1eday: I'm in the process of doing a very difficult refactor around networking21:22
edayvish1: yeah, anotherjesse was telling me about that21:23
vish1but it sparked a question that i wanted to run by some people21:23
gundlacheday: just caught up with long irc logs to see your msgs to me.  great to hear that you've got eventlet up -- post the code somewhere so we can try making the API in eventlet to see how it compares to twisted21:23
vish1configuration for plugabble classes in python21:23
vish1i'm using the following:21:23
edaygundlach: writing it up now in an email21:24
vish1for example21:24
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mtaylorachew22: yes21:24
vish1the advantage of this is you can plug in any python class regardless of module21:25
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vish1the disadvantage is that it exposes a lot of inner workings to users21:25
achew22mtaylor: thank you. I assume that after I apt-get install nova-* the next step would be nova-manage creating users and projects then using eucatools to set up nodes?21:25
vish1who might want to use --auth_driver=ldap or something simple21:25
gundlachvish1: yagni?21:26
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vish1to which?21:26
gundlachsorry, the exposed classnames.21:26
gundlachi'd go with =ldap (less flexible but simpler to use) until at least 2 customers have complained about the lack of plugging in arbitrary classes :)21:27
mtaylorvish1: I agree with gundlach21:27
gundlachaka, don't make a user-level plugin framework until we need it.21:27
vish1should i automagically generate classname?21:27
vish1or just do ewans version21:27
vish1of an if statement21:27
alekibangogundlach: LDAP simple to use? omg21:27
mtaylorvish1: also, somewhere in between is the setuptools entrypoints system, since we're on setuptools now21:27
creihtIsn't auth the one thing that you know for sure will need to be user pluggable?21:27
vish1if 'ldap' driver==xxx21:28
vish1i'm doing the same with network21:28
gundlachi'd do the if statement until it's clear that we will need to be dropping in more and more classes.21:28
vish1cuz we have two network classes now21:28
achew22mtaylor: how do you intend to create debian packages from setup.py?21:28
gundlachalekibango: no, i'm talking about the nova cmd line args, not LDAP itself21:28
vish1instead of random FLAG checks in multiple places21:28
mtaylorachew22: we have a debian packaging branch21:28
achew22is that a launchpad feature?21:29
mtaylorachew22: from which the packages are made21:29
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vish1so is that the general consensus? short flags that get turned into classes internally?21:29
mtaylorachew22: well, the nightly builds into the ppa is21:29
mtaylorachew22: except it's all borked right now :)21:29
_0x44vish1: That's my preference.21:29
achew22can you link me to this branch? I've been trying to create .debs out of my python packages for a few weeks and have had NO luck21:29
alekibangoi would think that with ORM, having users and everything in SQL database would make sense to me21:30
vish1ok i'll do it in networking and convert the auth to short flags in a patch21:30
mtaylorachew22: ah. sure. it's lp:~nova-core/nova/debian-packaging21:30
creihtHere's an idea... why not make auth wsgi middleware, and poof, problem goes away :)21:31
achew22mtaylor: thank you sir you might be the most helpful person I've run into all day21:31
redbocreiht: how are you going to specify the middleware?  with short flags or full class path?21:31
mtaylorachew22: there's a set of bzr tools for managing the whole process... you may want to look at http://www.advogato.org/person/robertc/diary/130.html21:31
creihtwell gholt seems to like the full class path :)21:32
mtaylorachew22: but feel free to ping me with questions21:32
achew22mtaylor: thank you for the offer21:32
creihtIf we really want configurable middleware, there are tools that do a lot of that work already21:32
creihtlike paste21:32
redbono, we're not having a requirement on paste :)21:32
creihtIf you were to want that type of configurability21:32
creihtI'm just using it as an example21:32
creihtBut might be a good place to get ideas21:33
gholtI thought redbo liked paste.21:33
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gundlachnite all21:33
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gholtTook me a bit to depaste swift, back in the day. But I might be misremembering. I'm good at that.21:33
redboyou might be thinking of routes21:34
gholtOh, yeah, maybe. For all the downsides, a bad memory does have upsides. Like.. Uhm. Well, you know.21:34
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achew22mtaylor: also, I don't know who to report this to but there isn't an upstart script for redis in the nova-core ppa21:36
mtaylorachew22: is there an upstart script in other redis packages?21:36
achew22off hand I do not know21:37
mtaylorachew22: file it as a bug on nova and assign it to me (if it will let you assign it) ... I'm mordred in launchpad21:37
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achew22mtaylor: I don't see a way to assign it so I'm going to make it generic21:42
uvirtbotNew bug: #613210 in nova "Redis does not have an upstart script" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61321021:51
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jaypipesanotherjesse, alekibango, mtaylor, eday: sorry, been away from keyboard...we should have the discussion on the mailing list I think...21:52
* jaypipes kinda out of it until Thursday this week.. :(21:53
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mtaylorjaypipes: bah! I'm sick with strep throat and taking all sorts of antibiotics and I'm still in here :)21:58
_0x44mtaylor: That's what you get for going on vacation.21:58
mtaylor_0x44: yes indeed... I'm just glad I didn't get swine flu, or bird flu or horse flu or whatever21:59
_0x44mtaylor: You're lucky you didn't catch a case of Dread Candiru.21:59
_0x44That always ruins a vacation.21:59
mtaylorsounds like it!22:00
achew22which service is the one that runs on 8773?22:02
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sorenmtaylor: Um... Is it ok if I reassign bug 613210 to ubuntu/redis?22:06
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uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 613210 in nova "Redis does not have an upstart script" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61321022:06
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vish1achew22: api22:15
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mtaylorsoren: sure22:16
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alekibangojaypipes: mail is dead22:19
sorenmtaylor: Done. Phew. My sanity was at risk there for a minute. :)22:19
alekibangoi dont like reading talking on mail lists - rather irc + wiki  -> this is much better22:20
comstudsoren, had you started any work on nova scheduler?  someone said you might have22:20
sorencomstud: Nope.22:20
sorencomstud: I was kind of waiting for the architecture discussion to finish first.22:20
comstudsounds good.. just checking, since pvo has asked me to look at it22:20
sorencomstud: It's way up high on my todo-list. As soon as my daughter feels better (here's hoping), I should get to it real soon. Like this week-ish.22:21
alekibangojaypipes: http://etherpad.openstack.org/pieKQT8fRB  i tried to write some parts of our discussion here22:21
vish1i think anotherjesse is looking at it as well22:21
vish1at least a really dumb/simple version22:22
comstudok, any branches yet?  i've not seen any22:22
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comstudfor some reason https://code.launchpad.net/~nova is blank for me right now22:23
alekibangocomstud: remove ~ sign22:24
alekibangonp it happens all the time22:24
achew22Is there anything equivalent to amazon's management console for openstack?22:26
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notmynameachew22: since consoles generally tie in to id management and billing and ..., that is probably more left to the one implementing openstack22:28
achew22It stands to reason that a generic console could exist with plugins for billing and management22:28
notmynameperhaps. but does a generic billing system even exist? ;-)22:29
alekibangoachew22: i would like to have such console22:29
achew22I hope not ;)22:29
alekibangoachew22:  if there is no other effort to create WEB based gui i am willing to help with making one (but cant do this alone)22:30
achew22alekibango: if I were used to EC2 and all of it's components (lets be honest I have 0 hours logged on EC2 or competitors) I would say I could help but I probably am not the guy to talk to22:31
creihtI believe it is planned, and I believe that there is some proof of concept work for that done22:31
creihtI also saw a release a bit ago that some billing service said that they were planning on working with openstack22:31
notmynamethat's cool22:31
alekibangocreiht: there must be such thing... the future is here. its just not evenly distributed22:31
mtaylorthat may be my favorite quote of the day...22:32
mtaylor"the future is here. its just not evenly distributed"22:32
alekibangoits not mine, i just used it22:32
creihtmtaylor: credit - William Gibson22:32
alekibangothanks creiht22:33
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mtaylormmm. I knew it was good22:33
achew22Are there plans to implement something like Amazon's SQS?22:33
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alekibangoachew22: what is sqs?22:34
creihtachew22: I would imagine that openstack would have more projects included in the future, but can't comment directly on sqs22:34
achew22Simple Queue Service22:34
alekibangoachew22: something like ampq?22:35
creihtI don't think there is a roadmap yet for other projects22:35
achew22It is similar22:35
creihtalekibango: much simpler22:35
creihtalekibango: http://aws.amazon.com/sqs/22:35
alekibangocreiht: thanks, already reading it now22:35
alekibangoamqp that is, i never write that one down correctly, hehe22:37
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alekibangoachew22: anyway, come tomorow to ask about console again. maybe i will knew more, i ma mailing someone who might tell me something about it22:39
notmynamesounds like some sort of gangster thing: "Come back tomorrow, and I'll tell you more. I know a guy, see? And no cops!"22:43
achew22I fear for my electronic life22:43
alekibangonotmyname: i have heard here that someone is working on some gui for public api servers, thats all22:44
alekibangonotmyname: but i have few bridges to sell if you have enought $$ :D22:44
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notmyname"I can't tell you who he is, see? They'll kill me!"22:44
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alekibangomail was given to me via pvtmsg22:45
alekibangoyesterday or so, and now i sent him my question (similar to his)22:45
alekibangothe guy is not on irc22:45
alekibangoi dont know more except the email :D22:45
alekibangonotmyname: i will msg you what he will reply to me22:47
alekibangoif his mail will not end in trash22:47
alekibangoi have 10000 spams a day22:47
notmynameI think the idea of a console is great, but I don't know how it would be useful for anyone outside of the developer's use case.22:47
achew22In looking at the SQS page on Amazon I think i might be able to use it for free for a good deal of time22:48
notmynamewhat about some sort of cPanel extension or something like that22:48
alekibangowho is that developer in your sentence?22:48
* notmyname doesn't know anything about such things22:48
notmynamealekibango: the developer that makes the generic console22:48
alekibangoaha... smart idea.. generic console... do you know such consoles?22:49
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notmynameno. that's my point22:49
alekibangothey all sell it as part of the solution22:49
alekibangosee cloud.com22:49
alekibangoor amazon22:49
GlaceIs Cloud.com based on openstack?22:50
alekibangonope, but they started to cooperate somehow22:50
alekibangothey have own cloud solution, and they also have ENTERPRISE version (for spaceships)22:50
alekibangoplus nice gui22:50
gustavomzwwho runs irclogs.openstack.org?22:50
achew22alekibango: is that targeted at shuttleworth?22:50
notmynamethe console becomes a client of the system. it makes sense that it is individually developed as part of a product.22:51
Glaceyeah.. but openstack.. is there a gui?22:51
alekibangoGlace: ask tomorow22:51
Glacei didnt try openstack yet22:51
alekibangomaybe there might be someone working on it22:51
mtaylorgustavomzw: me22:51
mtaylorgustavomzw: is it borked again?22:52
alekibangonotmyname: i see.  but there is none. i think one of partners should OPEN his own22:52
Glaceheheh.. well if its nice.. i might start building one with my guys. but i didnt have time to read all the openstack doc22:52
Glaceis it really better than cloud.com?22:52
gustavomzwmtailor: it returns 403 since the 29th22:52
Glacecloud.com have been there for a while I think.. their api is pretty solid22:52
mtaylorgustavomzw: thanks... will fix22:52
Glacebut.. what seems very nice is the.. storage api of openstack :022:53
Glaceno one does something similar i think.. right?22:53
alekibangoGlace: there are few nice ways on openstack that are making me wanna go deeper with it22:53
alekibango1) nice code22:53
alekibango2) python22:53
alekibango3) people here in channel22:53
notmynameGlace: glad you like it :-)22:53
alekibango4) OPEN22:54
Glacehehe well it seems really nice.. cloud.com dont have astorage api.. and i was really looking for one22:54
gustavomzwalekibango: agreed 100%22:54
Glaceyeah.. seems nice alek.. from what i read about openstack22:54
alekibangoand its gaining momentum, so imho it might be ahead soon22:54
Glacea lot of people seem to be contributing to it22:55
devcamcarGlace: the nasa nebula dashboard will be open sourced very soon, which is a django based web front end22:55
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Glacevery nice devcamcar22:55
alekibangodevcamcar: so it will become part of openstack?22:55
GlaceI am developing right now a silverlight interface for cloud.com22:55
alekibangothat would make me go on including glusterfs support in openstack :D22:55
Glacebut I am really looking foward to use the openstack storage api22:56
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Glacehehe anyone here have tried glusterfs with infiniband?22:56
alekibangoGlace: that live silver thingy is bad for your stomach22:56
Glaceany good benchmark?22:56
alekibangoGlace:  as i have no infiniband, i didnt22:56
alekibangoits not very fast - but it works and its easy to play with22:57
Glaceoki.. yeah..  wanted to test glusterfs with inifniband and get some benchmarks22:57
devcamcaralekibango: that's the plan22:57
alekibangodevcamcar: thanks for those news22:57
alekibangoi hope it will be soon22:57
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mtaylorgustavomzw: done. thanks for pointing it out22:58
* notmyname out22:59
gustavomzwmtaylor: cool, it is back - night reading23:01
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