Saturday, 2011-01-08

nelson__creiht: woot!00:14
* jeremyb wonders what nelson__ is wooting00:15
nelson__it's a secret, or you can read the scroll-back.00:15
jeremybcan you have a different replica count per container or per account?00:15
jeremybi tried /lastlog00:15
nelson__(actually, I fucked up)00:16
nelson__(and now I'm wooting the unfuck)00:16
jeremybcan you (cheaply) move containers from one account to another?00:16
nelson__are you asking me? I don't know, although I expect I eventually will.00:16
jeremybi'm asking the wind00:16
notmynamejeremyb: there is a server-side copy that will move objects from one container to another. uses the cluster's internal network, so no buffering or proxying to the client00:18
jeremybnotmyname: right i know about that... but can you just move a container? or alternatively (same result) change the owner for the whole container?00:18
notmynamejeremyb: ah, sorry. just saw the word "account"00:18
notmynameif you change the account, the hash for every object changes (and container), so everything would have to be replicated to the right node00:19
jeremyb:/00:19
notmynameand replication can't do that now (it doens't rehash)00:19
jeremybnotmyname: and replica count?00:20
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notmynameit's global per cluster. we've talked about how to do a selectable redundancy, but it's tricky00:21
jeremybhrmmm00:21
* jeremyb is thinking about hacking in compression himself00:21
notmynamecompression as an object streams in?00:21
jeremybor afterwards00:22
jeremybcompressed on disk00:22
notmynameit would be trivial to do as the object is PUT/fetched in middleware. I don't know if it's a good thing, but it would be simple to do00:23
notmynameredbo has played around with some ideas there00:23
jeremybwhen's he usually around?00:23
notmynameit depends a lot on the use case for the cluster00:23
notmynameredbo is like the wind. he's always here00:24
jeremybwell i'm migrating from a service that already does compression. some of our objects are bitmaps with big swaths of solid colors (e.g. html backgrounds)00:24
notmynameso you are standing up a swift cluster to replace your current storage?00:25
jeremybyes, current storage is a custom service that sucks (we built it and no one else ever tested it) and requires all nodes to have a complete copy of all data00:26
Ryan_Lane\o/00:26
Ryan_Lanelooks like I had to wipe out my flat network and create a new network to switch network drivers00:26
notmynameif you're the only use case, you could put some middleware in front that could compress based on object name (eg .endswith('.bmp'))00:27
jeremybwell i would at least want the object to have an attribute indicating whether or not it's compressed00:28
jeremybso when reading back out it works no matter what00:28
notmynamesounds like content-type/content-encoding works for that00:29
jeremyb(e.g. we store some uncompressed and then add the middleware and store some more and then fetch them all)00:29
jeremybi wonder if we could then compress them just by doing an in place copy00:29
jeremyb(the same way you change metadata on an object)00:30
notmynamethat's only needed for changing the content-type00:30
notmynameand the copy happens in the proxy server, so the wsgi stack isn't processed again00:30
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notmynameIOW: no00:30
jeremybi was momentarily looking for a user named IOW00:31
notmynameheh00:31
notmynameyou should be able to change the content-encoding with a POST00:31
jeremybany idea where i might find history of past discussions on compression? or just wait for redbo?00:32
notmynametalking to redbo would be best00:34
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jeremybnotmyname: how about replica count per container or per account? do you remember who was talking about that?00:36
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gholtcolinnich: Good catch. I'll remerge from trunk.00:38
jeremybahhh, gholt00:38
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notmynamejeremyb: it was most of us on the swift dev team00:54
jeremybnotmyname: k. don't care about the object level, could live with acct, would prefer container level00:55
jeremybi may also try hacking that one but i think it's lower priority than compression00:56
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XenithI see that in the nova wiki, it says that larger instance types get some form of local storage. Is that local to the host system? Is it different than nova-volume?01:28
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vishyanyone familiar with launchpad ppas here?01:43
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edayvishy: mtaylor would be a good one to ping too01:53
edayvishy: or just in #launchpad01:53
vishyi think i got this01:53
eday^ask01:53
uvirtboteday: Error: "ask" is not a valid command.01:53
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mtaylorvishy: what did I do?02:08
vishymtaylor: trying to figure out how to use this ppa stuff02:10
mtaylorvishy: as in you want to upload new packages? or you want to use packages that are in it?02:10
vishyi'm trying to build and upload packages02:11
mtaylorok. so the main thing is to create a source package (bzr bd -S should do the trick if you're using one of our packaging branches)02:11
vishyi'm using bzr-builddeb02:12
vishy-S is what i need?02:12
vishybut i was getting an error about not having the orig.tar.gz02:12
mtaylorgreat. yes - -S will tell it to make a source rather than binary package02:12
mtaylorah - you may need to do this then:02:13
mtaylorbzr bd -S --builder='debuild -S -sa'02:13
mtaylor -sa tells debuild to always include the .orig.tar.gz02:13
mtaylorand now I have to run away for a bit...02:15
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creihtcolinnich: yeah the swift-bench thing is fixed in current trunk now02:56
creihtnelson__: yay02:56
creihtjeremyb: no02:57
creiht:)02:57
creihtjeremyb: It is possible that selectable redundancy may be solved when we answer the multi-region replication stuff02:59
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creihtjeremyb: Redbo did some testing, and I think that it was showing about only 7% compression for our use cases03:02
creihtMost things are already compressed, or in a format that doesn't compress well (encrypted)03:02
creihtIf you have a lot of bmps with large color regions, maybe they should be stored in a better format? :)03:03
jeremybcreiht: yeah, i'm also very interested in multiregion03:07
creihtmany people are :)03:07
creihtIt is a difficult problem03:07
jeremybhehe, maybe they should be in a better format!03:08
creihtthat said, you could probably do compression with middleware pretty easily03:08
jeremybright now i think they're bitmaps (uncompressed) wrapped in java serialized objects and then gzipped03:08
creihtheh03:08
creihtif they are gzipped, then they are already compressed right?03:08
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redboTransparent compression should be pretty easy, the difficult part is recognizing what files will compress without actually trying it out on them.04:14
jeremybredbo: i was thinking the client would tell you to compress or not04:17
jeremybduring PUT04:17
redbothat would be easy if you can rely on that04:18
redboBut yeah if something's already gzipped, it won't really compress any more.04:19
jeremybright of course04:19
jeremybcreiht: yeah... as long as we're migrating i'd rather unwrap them though. we can have metadata on the swift object to specify stuff like the version of the system that produced the image instead of having a java object to bundle the image and metadata and storing a serialization of the java object04:22
jeremybwhat metadata does the container server know for an object?04:22
jeremybvs. having to talk to a storage server to get metadata04:23
redboIt should be pretty easy, but I haven't done any code or anything.  So far I was just collecting info on how compressable our corpus of data is.04:23
jeremyb(e.g. if i'm iterating over a whole container looking for key x=y)04:23
jeremybright04:23
jeremybwhat is that btw?04:23
jeremybi have images (currently wrapped in java serialized objects), email source (plain text with headers), and 3 other kinds of java serialized objects04:24
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jeremybcurrently we just blanket compress all images and email source, not sure if we do or don't for the other types04:25
redboOh, I was sampling stuff from our public service.  I don't know what all is in there.04:26
jeremybk. you're racklabs right?04:26
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redboI'm on the Rackspace cloudfiles team, yeah.  The racklabs name is kind of nebulous.04:29
jeremybi just saw people with that rdns04:31
jeremybhrmmm, do you work with mschuler?04:34
redboyep04:35
jeremybhe came to DebConf1004:35
jeremybhe was the first or second way i heard about openstack04:36
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redboCool.  We're pretty much on the same team.04:38
jeremybredbo: so do you think there would be interest in having compression support in a release?04:42
redboyes.  But I'm thinking the thing that chooses what to compress might need to be pluggable, since it probably varies a lot by use case.04:44
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jeremybi was thinking it would be specified outside swift (i.e. by the user or client app)04:47
jeremyband you could have a default set at the container/acct/global level04:49
jeremyband probably also allow middleware to meddle in the decision04:50
redboyeah, that's what I was just trying to figure out how to say.  if it's a header a user can tack on and gets passed down to the storage server, middleware could also mutate that request based on whatever info it has.04:51
jeremybright04:51
jeremyband the header can be compress|don'ttouch|defer to default. the middleware probably should only meddle if it's defer04:52
jeremybalso compression formats should be pluggable and i should be able to specify which one04:53
redboI think we'd want to have middleware that makes the whole decision.04:53
jeremybsure04:54
jeremyband if the middleware's not there just store with no meddling04:54
redboMakes sense04:54
jeremyb(was typing) e.g. someone might care a lot about space and use something with 10% better ratio and someone else might just want to be able to send it through bit for bit to an HTTP client that supports gzip encoding04:54
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jeremybis there a contrib section for optional middleware a la django?04:56
redboWe've just been putting things in swift/common/middleware/ and not making them part of the default config for now.04:57
redbobut we'll have to do something more scalable if we keep coming up with these things04:58
jeremybheh04:59
* jeremyb now has some questions about the rackfiles stuff beyond swift... idk if you can answer05:01
jeremybdoes it support compression on the wire? if there's a popular object does it compress once, cache, and reuse for some period of time?05:01
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jeremybdo people (rackspace and others) generally expose swift directly or put some kind of cache in front of it? (i was discussing varnish with someone elsewhere. for a use case with all public data and no need for bandwidth accounting)05:03
redboYeah, we have caches in front of it.  I don't know that much about it.  Which is another place where Swift is sort of tailored to our use case and needs some improvement.05:06
redboI wouldn't expose it directly to public traffic05:06
jeremybok, very good to know...05:07
redboWell, there's this silly thing where we don't use the Linux page cache, because we very rarely serve the same file from swift multiple times.  It'd be really easy to turn off.05:09
creihtjeremyb: If you are really interested in the compression stuff, then I would submit a blueprint, and that will help kick off a discussion05:09
jeremybcreiht: k, i should probably get my own cluster going first, right?05:10
creihtjeremyb: and yeah, for cloudfiles, most public content is sent out through the cdn05:10
creihtjeremyb: or at least the saio05:10
jeremybsaio? swift all in one?05:10
jeremyboh05:10
creihtyup05:10
jeremybi thought you were saying through the cdn or at least the saio05:11
jeremybbut i'm sorted now :)05:11
creihtIf we decide to enable public containers in cloudfiles, we will probably need to think a little more about that part05:11
redboyeah.  I think there's a bug in lp to make that configurable.05:12
jeremybi think i heard this from your team but to double check: rackspace runs storage, container and account servers on all storage nodes and proxy servers are all on dedicated proxy nodes? so then there's a 3rd set of nodes caching/balancing in front of the proxies? is that 3rd set software or netscalers? can you say how that's set up?05:12
creihtwe have a load balancing layer in front of the proxies05:13
creihtwe are currently using zeus for that05:13
creihtfor public content, that is currently through the cdn integration05:13
jeremybso zeus is exposed directly to the outside DNS round robin'd?05:14
creihtno05:14
creihtbut I really can't talk about that part :)05:14
jeremybheh05:15
jeremybso, zeus is for everything or just the cdn or ?05:15
creihtzeus is in front of cloud files05:15
creihtthe cdn is via another provider05:15
creihtwe have a separate service that the cdn provider talks to to be able to pull content05:16
jeremybok, so the cdn kinda goes in through the back door05:16
creihtyes05:16
jeremyband "separate service" is closed service?05:16
jeremyberr05:16
jeremybclosed source*05:16
creihtyeah we haven't opened that yet05:16
creihtbut it is pretty thin05:16
creihtand a bit specific to our setup05:17
jeremybdoes it hit or bypass the proxies?05:17
jeremyb(the swift proxies)05:17
redboWell, I don't think we will open it.  Using ACLs to open swift to public traffic is a better solution.05:17
creihtI'm pretty sure it goes through the proxies05:18
creihtand yeah what redbo said05:18
creihtIt should be easy to put some caching layer in front of that05:18
jeremybright05:18
redbothough it'd be nice... there's no reason why one box sitting in front of a giant cluster should speed up the access.  It should be possible to do that caching work in the cluster.05:19
creihtredbo: well I was thinking at least 2 boxes :P05:20
creihtredbo: but that is an interesting idea as well05:20
redboyeah but one's just failover, right?05:20
redboor did you not allow for failover capacity???05:21
jeremybhrmmmmmm, anyone done middleware to cache hot stuff in memcached?05:22
creihtwell the idea would be to route un-authed requests through a caching layer that would either server what is in cache, or pull from a public container05:22
creihtI see your point though, if we had several of those machines, we would need a way for hot content to get to the whole layer05:23
creihtso it is a little more difficult than simple :)05:24
creihtMy first thought was to either have a layer of varnish servers, or just run varnis on the proxies05:26
jeremybso where does most middleware live? in proxy server or all the servers?05:26
creihtnot sure yet05:26
creihtwell not sure if it would be middleware at the proxy level, or if it would be a separate set of servers05:27
creihtthat could be anywhere05:27
jeremybnot necessarily for caching, middleware in general05:27
jeremybcan you put it anywhere you want?05:27
creihtahh... yeah pretty much all middleware goes in front of the proxy05:27
creihtredbo: or we could have a separate storage url for public content (like a simple cdn) that would go through a cache05:28
creihtit just wouldn't have edges distributed around the globe05:29
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creihthrm... is varnish just in memory?05:30
jeremybonce multi region repl. is finished will rackfiles support being 1 replica of a private cluster?05:30
creihtjeremyb: that has not been decided yet05:30
* jeremyb definitely would use that05:30
jeremybnelson__: Ryan_Lane: you should read the last 1/2 hr at some point05:32
jeremybcreiht: redbo notmyname: thanks!05:32
creihthrm... the varnish docs are a bit difficult to navigate05:38
creihtok sounds like it does use disk to cache05:40
jeremybmemory too?05:41
creihtyeah05:41
jeremybthrough filesystem cache or some other way?05:41
creihtnot entirely sure05:41
creihthttp://www.varnish-cache.org/trac/wiki/ArchitecturePersistentStorage05:41
creihtIs what I just started reading05:41
* jeremyb looks05:42
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jeremybcreiht: /mem/i appears once on that page and not in our context05:43
pandemicsyncreiht: it uses both05:44
creihtpandemicsyn: yeah that is what it seems like05:44
pandemicsynits been awhile but it uses disk as cold storage and ram for hot i think05:44
jeremybpandemicsyn: both what? filesys cache and heap?05:44
creihttheir docs can be a bit difficult to follow :)05:44
pandemicsynlast time i used it apache 2.1 was still cool so it might be different now ;)05:45
creihthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varnish_(software)05:45
jeremybhttp://identi.ca/notice/56504214 http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Varnish_caching http://wikitech.wikimedia.org/view/Varnish (reading those wiki pages now)05:51
creihtjeremyb: http://trafficserver.apache.org/05:55
creihtis another interesting option05:55
jeremybcreiht: oooooh, never heard of this before05:56
creihttraffic server actually looks a bit intriquing for this use case06:04
jeremybwell i can't really think about it now, nearly asleep!06:07
creihthehe.. me too06:08
creihthave a good weekend06:08
jeremybyou too06:12
redbocreiht: I'm pretty sure varnish just mmaps the files, so they just use the kernel's page cache (LRU or whatever).06:18
anticwit does06:19
redbocreiht: but I was saying there's no reason we couldn't do the same sort of thing on our storage nodes.  There's nothing magical about Varnish, it just keeps files on ram/disk.06:23
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openstackhudsonProject nova build #371: STILL FAILING in 9.7 sec: http://hudson.openstack.org/job/nova/371/16:33
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vishymtaylor, soren, dendrobates, ttx: anyone around?19:56
vishytying to figure out how to upload an unchanged package to a ppa.  Is it even possible?19:58
vishythe specific issue I'm having is that nova needs a newer version of sphinx to build properly.  I'm trying to upload the version of sphinx from the nova-ppa20:00
vishyi can download the package via apt-get source sphinx, but I'm not sure how to upload it to the ppa without rebuilding and generating a changes file20:01
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vishyok i think i may have this issue solved by using a build dependency20:21
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vishyand there is a ui for copying packages, nice20:24
dendrobatesvishy: I'm around now20:36
vishydendrobates: i think i figured out everything i needed20:36
vishydendrobates: i'm curious how hudson handles the changelogs when it builds a new package from the source tree20:37
dendrobatesvishy: di you find dput?  That is what I use to upload20:37
vishydendrobates: yeah got that part worked out20:37
dendrobatesvishy: I'm not sure hudson is a mystery to me20:38
vishydendrobates: any is there a way to specify in a changelog or with builddeb to use multiple targets? or do you need three separate changelogs?20:39
vishybuilding for lucid/maverick/natty for example20:39
dendrobatesYou only need one changelog you can configure the ppa to build different targets20:40
dendrobatesvishy: or maybe that's the recipe, the have made changes and the recipes are new20:43
jeremybrecipes are a lp.net thing?20:45
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codehotterhi. Can I get started with openstack, just because it's cool, if I only have a single server? (our company will grow to millions of servers in the futer, I'm sure!)21:15
JbainI believe there is a page on the wiki about how to install it on a single box, lemme look for the link21:17
jeremybopenstack has 2 mostly separate projects... are you talking about swift or nova? (file / object storage or virtualization?)21:17
codehotterWhy not both? How feasible is it? What performance overhead will I pay?21:18
codehotterHow integrated is Openstack Compute with the hypervisors it supports? How much effort is it to support an additional hypervisor?21:19
sorenvishy: I'm around now.21:19
sorenvishy: What's up?21:19
JbainI would imagine it would take a significant amount of coding to add support for a new hypervisor21:19
sorenDepends on the hypervisor, really.21:20
Jbainhave you integrate it with the API21:20
codehotterAre there any numbers on performance overhead? And any documents on architectural design?21:20
codehotter(I've browsed the wiki for about 30 minutes)21:20
sorenvishy: You don't strictly need three separate changelogs.21:20
sorenvishy: What really matters is the "Distribution: " line in the .changes file. This is based on what's in debian/changelog, but can be overridden.21:21
Jbainsoren: HyperV is in the process of being added isn't it?21:21
sorenJbain: It's in.21:22
sorenJbain: Since a couple of days ago.21:22
Jbainsweet21:22
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JbainI've been lurking around here for a while, waiting for a few more paychecks before I get some equipment to finally be able to play around with this stuff :)21:23
jeremybhyperv?!21:23
jeremybyou must be kidding21:23
Jbaini'm not a huge fan of it, but the higher-ups like windows >.>21:23
jeremybuhhhhh21:24
codehottersigh21:24
jeremybno hyperv21:24
Jbainlol21:24
jeremybon my boxen anyway!21:24
JbainI would stick with Xen for my stuff most likely21:24
Jbainbut I'd like to try it with hyperV21:24
codehotterWhere can I find docuents on openstack's architecture? How does it work? What does it do?21:24
Jbainjeremyb: your nick is weirding me out, man21:25
Jbainlol21:25
alekibangocodehotter: search wiki for word architecture... there are some images, descriptions and links :)21:25
alekibangolook also into nove devel docs, there is nice ascii art image21:25
Jbain<3 ascii art21:26
alekibangocodehotter: my images of arch are there: http://alekiba.dyndns.org/nova/21:26
codehotteralekibango: thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for21:26
notmynamecodehotter: swift architecture can be found at swift.openstack.org21:26
alekibangobevare - some of them are not 100% accurate21:26
alekibango C[12]21:27
alekibangothey are just possible futures21:27
alekibangocodehotter: there are some diffrerent nova services,which all can run on different machines21:27
jeremybJbain: what's your name?21:29
JbainJeremy Bain21:30
jeremybuhuh21:30
Jbainwell, Bain is my middle name, but w/e21:31
alekibangofamily reunion again, hehe21:31
Jbainsrs21:33
mtaylorvishy: heythere21:48
mtaylorvishy, dendrobates: I don't use recipes myself21:49
mtaylorvishy: and yeah - you need separate changelogs for each distro target (lucid/maverick/etc) ... recipes can help you generate the different source packages, but I usually do it by hand because it's just easier21:49
mtaylorvishy: oh - well, believe soren rather than me re: .changes vs. debian/changelog21:50
dendrobatesmtaylor: yeah the recipes are new but they do a lot of that for you.21:50
mtaylordendrobates: they do - I just find that they do 20 things I don't want and almost nothing that I do want21:51
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XenithI see that in the nova wiki, it says that larger instance types get some form of local storage. Is that local to the host system? Is it different than nova-volume?21:55
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