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| Saul_ | Anyone alive? | 02:38 |
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| gunix | hey guys, how do you deal with MDS failover issues on ceph? cause it has like 2 mins downtime if your active one fails | 11:02 |
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| gunix | guys? | 15:37 |
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| iggy | gunix: maybe you meant to ask in #ceph? | 16:51 |
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| gunix | iggy: #ceph is sadly a dead channel. there is nobody there actually caring about answering. | 17:43 |
| gunix | iggy: considering ceph is present in half of the openstack deployments, i have more chances to get an answer by asking here | 17:43 |
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| hackoo | I am facing an error with Keystone while creating first project. I tried multiple times with different ways to setup. Now doing manual setup using Opnestack docs but still facing same issue. Error says: Discovering versions from the identity service failed when creating the password plugin. Attempting to determine version from URL. | 17:50 |
| hackoo | Please let me know if any pointers to solve this. | 17:51 |
| yankcrime | gunix the bits of ceph that are fundamental to most openstack deployments are block and object - i think file is a lot less common | 17:51 |
| yankcrime | the official ceph irc channel isn't on freenode btw | 17:52 |
| yankcrime | it's on OFTC | 17:52 |
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| gunix | yankcrime: why are you telling me this? is the MDS required only for file? | 17:56 |
| yankcrime | gunix correct | 17:56 |
| yankcrime | if you're only using block and object, you don't need mds | 17:56 |
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| gunix | yankcrime: oh, cool! | 19:25 |
| gunix | yankcrime: so what i need is 2 nodes for OSDs, with 2 OSDs each (4 OSDs in total) and 3 monitors ... right? | 19:27 |
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| iggy | if you don't want to lose data, you want 3 OSDs... and if you don't want your cluster to be innaccessible when you lose one OSD box, you want 3 of those too | 19:42 |
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| gunix | iggy: why do you need 3 OSD when you have 3 monitors? aren't the monitors the ones doing stonith? | 20:07 |
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| iggy | there is no stonith in ceph, and no the mon's don't mediate data replication... the OSDs do that all themselves | 20:17 |
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| gunix | iggy: so if i have 3 osds and one OSD gets disconnected from the other two, it will continue to write data? | 20:18 |
| gunix | on it's own | 20:18 |
| gunix | ? | 20:18 |
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| iggy | no, but if you have only 2 (with 2 replicas), each one will write independently thinking they can | 20:19 |
| gunix | iggy: ok,so if you have 3, and one loses connection, it stops ... isn't that stonith? | 20:20 |
| iggy | no... stonith literally means shoot the other node in the head | 20:20 |
| iggy | i.e. turning off the disconnected node in some way | 20:21 |
| gunix | ok so what ceph does is basic fencing, without stonith? or not even that? | 20:21 |
| iggy | OSDs will only accept writes if they have quorom | 20:22 |
| gunix | and ... that is not fencing? | 20:23 |
| iggy | but if you have replicas=2 each one will think it has quorom | 20:23 |
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| iggy | in any case, ceph 101 is way off topic for this channel | 20:24 |
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| gunix | you can join #ceph if you want and help me on that channel | 20:25 |
| gunix | people there don't talk | 20:25 |
| gunix | and i find kind of brutal at the start | 20:25 |
| gunix | maybe it doesn't hurt so much after the first try | 20:25 |
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| iggy | I'm in the ceph channel (the proper one anyway) | 21:24 |
| gunix | ? which one is the proper one? | 21:24 |
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| yankcrime | [17:52:12] <yankcrime>it's on OFTC | 21:25 |
| yankcrime | gunix ^ | 21:26 |
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| SamYaple | iggy: 2 replicas each one *wont* think it has quorum. quorum is defined as >50%, with two copies both must be online to have quorum. so thats not a risk | 21:35 |
| SamYaple | which talkingabout quorum at the osdlevel isnt really accurate anyway sincethats not where it lives. thats entirely controlled by size/min_size in ceph | 21:36 |
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| SamYaple | having size=2 and min_size=1 might lead to the situation you aretalkingabout, but the monitors (who maintain quorum) will prevent different osds accepting different writes like that from happening | 21:37 |
| gunix | SamYaple: so quorum is maintained by monitors, not buy OSDs? | 21:38 |
| gunix | do the OSD numbers count for quorum? | 21:38 |
| SamYaple | gunix: the osds talk to the monitors to learn thier place in the cluster. the monitors maintain quorum | 21:38 |
| gunix | SamYaple: thank you! that explins why i see people having 2 OSD nodes and 3 monitor nodes without any worries | 21:39 |
| iggy | you are right, it was the 2/1 case I was referring to | 21:39 |
| SamYaple | well, i wouldnt go that far "without any worries", but yea | 21:39 |
| SamYaple | i wouldnever do less than 3 copies with a 2 min_size | 21:39 |
| SamYaple | iggy: yea 2/1 min_size definetely opens the door to datacorruption issues for sure | 21:40 |
| gunix | SamYaple: would you keep monitors on controllers or on ceph nodes? | 21:41 |
| SamYaple | gunix: i typically do hyperconveraged. two types of nodes, controllers and computes. controllers have mons, computes have storage | 21:41 |
| SamYaple | never run osds and mons on the same nodes | 21:41 |
| gunix | that kind of makes sence, cause the VMs will have the storage on the same node and you reduce network traffic a lot | 21:42 |
| SamYaple | gunix: *potentially* it will have some parts ofthe storage on the same node | 21:42 |
| gunix | so your basic setup is 3 computes and 3 controllers... and you scale by adding controllers when required? | 21:43 |
| SamYaple | but it doesnt really reduce traffic | 21:43 |
| SamYaple | i dont normally scale past 3 controllers, no | 21:43 |
| gunix | SamYaple: if you have only 3 controllers, don't you get one replica on each node with default setup? | 21:43 |
| gunix | *if you have 3 COMPUTES | 21:43 |
| gunix | yea, i messed up that scaling question, rewriting ... | 21:44 |
| gunix | so your basic setup is 3 computes and 3 controllers... and you scale by adding COMPUTES when required? | 21:44 |
| SamYaple | sure you do, one on each | 21:44 |
| gunix | ... | 21:44 |
| SamYaple | but maybe not the primary one | 21:44 |
| SamYaple | which means the read still crosses the network | 21:44 |
| SamYaple | (that is up for futureoptimization though) | 21:44 |
| gunix | how much RAM do you need on the controller nodes? | 21:45 |
| SamYaple | depends on the number of osds, what elseyoure running,etc, etc | 21:45 |
| gunix | will 3 nodes with 24 GB ram do for a small setup? | 21:46 |
| SamYaple | with a 3 node setup, you could probably get away with 16GB of ram to run everything | 21:47 |
| SamYaple | 16gb per controller | 21:47 |
| gunix | yea | 21:47 |
| SamYaple | the compute ram would depend on the amount of storage, 1GBx1TB of storage is recommended | 21:47 |
| gunix | so if you get like 10 computes and around 400 instances, you probably need 120 GB ram i guess | 21:47 |
| SamYaple | on hte mons? | 21:48 |
| gunix | 120 GB on the controller+mon nodes, yes | 21:48 |
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| SamYaple | youll be hardpressed to break 64GB on such a small scale | 21:48 |
| gunix | it scales more with storage, rather than with number of vxlan networks & instances? | 21:48 |
| SamYaple | remember with ceph each bit is exponetially more storage, not more ram. so not quite | 21:49 |
| gunix | *the required number of ram, i mean | 21:49 |
| SamYaple | anyway 128GB controller nodes should last you up to several hundred compute node clusters | 21:49 |
| gunix | hundred compute nodes? | 21:49 |
| SamYaple | yea | 21:50 |
| gunix | wow | 21:50 |
| SamYaple | youll run into 1000's of other issues before ram istheproblem | 21:50 |
| SamYaple | probably | 21:50 |
| gunix | so that means potentialy 1000 projects, each with on cxlans and tons of instances? | 21:50 |
| gunix | s/vxlan/vxlan/g | 21:50 |
| gunix | * s/cxlan/vxlan/g | 21:50 |
| SamYaple | oh now youre asking other questions. ive not see 500+ network namespaces work so well before | 21:51 |
| SamYaple | regardless of resources | 21:51 |
| SamYaple | thenumber of instances doesnt matter, the number of networks/routers will | 21:51 |
| gunix | what do they stress out? proc/network devices? | 21:51 |
| SamYaple | neutron code is literally calling `ip netns ls` and processing that every few seconds | 21:52 |
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| gunix | SamYaple: so you rather want a few big customers, instead of a lot of small projects | 21:53 |
| gunix | maybe limit quota of virtual networks to ... 1 ... :)) if customers are small | 21:53 |
| gunix | * or tenants, not customers. w/e. | 21:54 |
| SamYaple | or scale out the number of nodes you have ahndling dhcp/l3 traffic, sure | 21:54 |
| gunix | does it work to just add controllers? | 21:54 |
| SamYaple | it works by running more copies of the agents, if that is "adding controllers" in however you are deploying openstack, then yes | 21:55 |
| gunix | hmm ... or not really controllers, i guess you can only add more nodes for neutron without scaling rabbitmq and galera and everything | 21:55 |
| gunix | no, you are right. it makes no sense to spam all services, when you only need more neutron agents | 21:55 |
| SamYaple | galera and ceph-mon are the *only* things that need 3 copies to work right | 21:55 |
| SamYaple | everything else is HA at two copies | 21:55 |
| gunix | but AFAIK neutron agents use VRRP | 21:55 |
| gunix | and they don't balance the load, you have 1 active router | 21:56 |
| SamYaple | only for l3HA | 21:56 |
| SamYaple | the default "legacy" router has no HA | 21:56 |
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| gunix | The Networking (neutron) service L3 agent is scalable, due to the scheduler that supports Virtual Router Redundancy Protocol (VRRP) to distribute virtual routers across multiple nodes. | 21:57 |
| gunix | from: https://docs.openstack.org/ha-guide/networking-ha-l3.html | 21:57 |
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| gunix | i can't figure this out. if it uses VRRP, how can it load balance? | 21:57 |
| SamYaple | see the last few letters of that url | 21:57 |
| SamYaple | vrro hasnothing to do with loadbalancing? | 21:57 |
| SamYaple | vrrp | 21:58 |
| gunix | i will write an example, maybe i am really badly confused here | 21:58 |
| SamYaple | routerA and routerB each have individual ip addresses | 21:58 |
| SamYaple | they want to make a single ip new highly available (a gateway). | 21:58 |
| gunix | so lets' say you have 3 controllers: .11 .12 .13 ... and 3 computes: .21 .22. .23 ... afaik if the controllers have the routers, they will get an IP with VRRP, like .10, and when 1 node dies, the other will take over that IP. and the router is actually on .10 ... am i missing something? | 21:59 |
| SamYaple | through some math, one of them becomes the "leader" and advertisise that it holds teh vip | 21:59 |
| SamYaple | if it goes down, the other will advertise it holds the vip | 21:59 |
| SamYaple | no load balancing | 21:59 |
| SamYaple | thats l3ha | 21:59 |
| SamYaple | not the default | 21:59 |
| gunix | hmm. | 22:00 |
| gunix | so what's the default? | 22:00 |
| SamYaple | the default "legacy" router has no HA | 22:00 |
| gunix | so how do you load balance by adding more network angets on new network nodes?? | 22:00 |
| SamYaple | that doesnt exist? | 22:01 |
| gunix | that's what's confusing me. if they use VRRP, how does it help to get 7 agents instead of 3 agents | 22:01 |
| SamYaple | thats not a thing | 22:01 |
| SamYaple | thats not what vrrp is about | 22:01 |
| gunix | means i missread something you wrote earlier | 22:01 |
| SamYaple | you are for sure | 22:01 |
| SamYaple | its about always being available in an active/passive sense | 22:01 |
| SamYaple | its not about loadbalancing | 22:01 |
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| gunix | SamYaple | or scale out the number of nodes you have ahndling dhcp/l3 traffic, sure | 22:02 |
| gunix | this. this is what confuses me. how do you do that? :)) | 22:02 |
| SamYaple | just run more agents. dhcp is active/active (more or less) | 22:02 |
| SamYaple | l3 agent just runs what its told | 22:02 |
| SamYaple | and that might be an active/apssive router | 22:02 |
| SamYaple | to statethis simply if routerA holds this vip and it dies, all active connections die. *however* routerB will pick up the vip and TCP will retry | 22:05 |
| SamYaple | udp is lost | 22:05 |
| SamYaple | l7 never gets involved | 22:05 |
| gunix | yea so that means routerA will have the load and routerB will have 0 load. and when routerA dies, routerB takes over all the load. and during this time routerC does nothing. | 22:05 |
| SamYaple | yup | 22:06 |
| gunix | so no load balancing | 22:06 |
| SamYaple | crrect | 22:06 |
| SamYaple | now. if a loadbalance is listeningon the vip, it can do loadbalncing... butonly on the node with theactive vip | 22:06 |
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| SamYaple | what you arereally askingabout isDVR, each compute can masquerade as a router and send traffic out as the "gateway" without a central router. but that only applies toEGRESS traffic, ingress still has to go through the since router | 22:07 |
| SamYaple | and you *really* dont want tomess withDVR this early (or for only 3 computenodes) | 22:08 |
| gunix | so all you can do if you have lots of VXLAN networks is have some dedicated nodes to do only L3.... | 22:08 |
| SamYaple | that works yea | 22:08 |
| SamYaple | theguides call that a "network node" | 22:08 |
| gunix | because the load will never be on the DHCP agent, it doesn't help if it's active/active. you need the routers. | 22:08 |
| SamYaple | when an instance sends a dhcp request, all dhcp nodes will respond, the first one the instance recieves wins | 22:09 |
| SamYaple | but beyond that, they dont do anything | 22:09 |
| SamYaple | except maybe handle metdata depending on configuration | 22:09 |
| gunix | from basic networking knowledge, if you have multiple dhcp servers on a network, it will have a bad outcome | 22:10 |
| gunix | but i guess neutron has a way to deal with that | 22:11 |
| SamYaple | all the leases are stored in theshared database, so all dhcp are assigning the same addresses | 22:13 |
| SamYaple | yes, its handled | 22:13 |
| gunix | nice | 22:13 |
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| gunix | thank you for the explaining this. you are really nice, as always. i'm going to sleep, it's 00:14 here. nn | 22:14 |
| SamYaple | haha hear that iggy. im nice | 22:16 |
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| gunix | yes, in an openstack community way. you are very linux. the linux type of nice. | 22:20 |
| SamYaple | gunix: i work with iggy, im just joking with him | 22:21 |
| iggy | I don't buy it | 22:21 |
| gunix | i don't know about other stuff. can't assess your level of niceness within other fields | 22:21 |
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| SamYaple | gunix: im more direct/blunt and fact based, im glad it comes accross to you as niceness | 22:21 |
| SamYaple | im happy to help | 22:22 |
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| gunix | the world today works like this: if you are an idiot, you pay microsoft or vmware to tell you that you are an idiot. you tell me that for free. | 22:23 |
| SamYaple | man your barof niceness is super low. with the definition im the nicest person ever! | 22:24 |
| gunix | really now, joke aside, i'd rather have blunt people that tell me the facts and help me in the process, than people that don't say anything. | 22:24 |
| SamYaple | then say no more. im your man | 22:25 |
| SamYaple | make sure you double check what im saying though | 22:25 |
| SamYaple | ive been wrong onceor twice | 22:25 |
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| gunix | SamYaple: i just read something and it confuses me. it's about snapshots on ceph. so normally in virtualization (vmware .vmdk, .qcow2, lvm), when you snapshot your VM, you get a delta file (or delta thin volume for LVM) where your changes are tracked. if you deleted the snapshot, the delta gets removed and you have your system back ... happens really fast. | 23:17 |
| gunix | and than i found this: Note Rolling back an image to a snapshot means overwriting the current version of the image with data from a snapshot. The time it takes to execute a rollback increases with the size of the image. It is faster to clone from a snapshot than to rollback an image to a snapshot, and it is the preferred method of returning to a pre-existing state. | 23:17 |
| gunix | so in ceph, you have the snapshot (read only info) copied on top of the delta file, and the original removed, instead of the other way around? what? | 23:17 |
| gunix | how can this provide performance in any way? | 23:18 |
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| SamYaple | i think there may be a bit of misunderstand with the way ceph works | 23:22 |
| SamYaple | its not so much a delta | 23:22 |
| SamYaple | so ceph tracks the list ofblocks, a snapshot freezes that list | 23:22 |
| SamYaple | anything using that snapshot will maintain its list of blocks it modifies after the snapshot | 23:22 |
| SamYaple | but you wouldnt really need to rollback at that point | 23:23 |
| SamYaple | snapshots in ceph arekind of a tricky subject depending on what we aretalking about | 23:23 |
| gunix | SamYaple: so when snapshot is active, it uses the written area from new blocks and unmodified area from snapshot blocks, having a map of how to find data? (i'm asking because that's how qcow2 snapshot works( | 23:32 |
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| SamYaple | yea | 23:33 |
| gunix | good. than on revert to snapshot, why not just delete new blocks and use all old blocks? | 23:34 |
| SamYaple | quite a bitmore effeicently than qcow2 snapshotting because ceph, but general idea yea | 23:34 |
| SamYaple | my question is... why revert to asnapshot? | 23:34 |
| SamYaple | what are you trying to do | 23:34 |
| gunix | you have a VM, you need to upgrade some service, you create a snapshot, upgrade fails, you revert to snapshot | 23:34 |
| SamYaple | ah. snapshots dont worklike that in openstack | 23:35 |
| SamYaple | a "snapshot" is going to be anew glance image | 23:35 |
| SamYaple | you would boot from your snapshot (ie a new instance) | 23:35 |
| gunix | dude, i am talking about cinder snapshots | 23:36 |
| gunix | you can do volume snapshots for cinder volumes | 23:37 |
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| gunix | you also have the option of creating backup, which does a snapshot of the volume and than moves it over to swift. however i have no ideea how this happens when ceph is involed, as blocks storage for cinder AND object storage for glance AND object storage for cinder backups (cinder backup driver ceph) | 23:38 |
| gunix | this process seems really easy to understand when using iscsi target cinder, with lvm backend, and swift as backend for glance. | 23:39 |
| gunix | tbh i like this setup more, maybe because i understand it ... however it implies propriatary storage OR lvm storage (no HA so equally bad) ... and the idea would be to walk the open source trend. | 23:40 |
| SamYaple | ah for cinder this isbecause of cephs internal snapshot stuff | 23:40 |
| SamYaple | performance is about equal when using read-only snapshots. if you are trying to write to the basevolume of a snapshot performance tanks | 23:40 |
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| SamYaple | cinder does have the ability to call flatten_snapshots,which brings back performance at the cost ofdupliucating that data (flattening) | 23:41 |
| gunix | yea, and that internal stuff is confusing. i am trying to understand ceph because it has huge hype and everybody loves it ... because it scales cool | 23:41 |
| gunix | do flatten snapshots just duplicate the data? | 23:41 |
| masber | good morning all, I am having issues creating instances, status stays as BUILD for a while and then fails. This is the nova-conductor logs http://paste.openstack.org/raw/626103/ | 23:41 |
| gunix | instead of doing a delta? | 23:41 |
| SamYaple | gunix: correct | 23:42 |
| gunix | how can that be better performance? | 23:42 |
| SamYaple | now we are getting into ceph internals | 23:42 |
| SamYaple | masber: check compute nodes are up, and have resources available | 23:42 |
| gunix | masber: NoValidHost: No valid host was found. There are not enough hosts available. | 23:42 |
| gunix | masber: do you have compute nodes? | 23:43 |
| masber | I have 3 compute nodes | 23:43 |
| masber | and no instances running | 23:43 |
| gunix | SamYaple: i should sleep but i keep reading stuff. last question (i hope) ... what do you think about this new thing with scaleio, providing better performance than ceph for block storage? | 23:44 |
| gunix | masber: check if nova-compute is running on the 3 compute nodes. do a hypervizor list from openstack api | 23:44 |
| masber | the instances gets a node which means scheduler filters are passed | 23:44 |
| gunix | *hypervisor list | 23:44 |
| masber | looks good, http://paste.openstack.org/show/626104/ | 23:45 |
| gunix | masber: if hosts are looking good from openstack api, please check quota on the project | 23:45 |
| SamYaple | gunix: i think its really easy to provide better performance than ceph forblock storage. but its hard to provide the data resilancy that ceph can. and i also use radosgw and cephfs | 23:45 |
| SamYaple | if you onyl use rbd, you have lots ofoptions | 23:46 |
| SamYaple | ceph has never been the end-all-be-all of performance | 23:46 |
| SamYaple | and never will be | 23:46 |
| gunix | masber: dude, that host has 1.5 TB memory? | 23:46 |
| gunix | and 192 CPUs?? | 23:46 |
| SamYaple | masber: `nova service-list` | 23:46 |
| masber | quota is ok, and instance flavor only needs 1 cpu | 23:46 |
| SamYaple | masber: actually just reread your first paste | 23:47 |
| SamYaple | itsscheduling, but failing onall your computes | 23:47 |
| SamYaple | look at the nova-computelogs | 23:47 |
| masber | gunix, 3 hosts, 512 GB ram each ... 5x cores | 23:47 |
| gunix | nice | 23:47 |
| gunix | SamYaple: are there any open source alternatives that provide HA block storage for cinder? | 23:48 |
| SamYaple | gunix: maybe glusterfs with file based? dont really keep up. im pretty hardcore into ceph because its a one stop shop for all my storage needs | 23:49 |
| SamYaple | and nothing else does tahtfor me | 23:49 |
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| gunix | SamYaple: that glusterfs vs ceph war has been going for years and i still didn't find any good benchmark | 23:50 |
| SamYaple | eh and you probably wont? they are both redhat | 23:51 |
| SamYaple | i dont like glusterfs | 23:51 |
| SamYaple | itdoesnt scale past 1PB and performance is not amazing | 23:51 |
| gunix | anyway it's not part of openstack ansible so using it would mean too much stress | 23:52 |
| gunix | i think the easiest way to get high performance block storage is to just get netapp | 23:53 |
| masber | logs from compute node --> http://paste.openstack.org/raw/626105/ | 23:53 |
| gunix | probably emc does a good job, but we have support from EMC for storage and backup and it's the most horrible support i ever got in my life | 23:53 |
| SamYaple | did you discover_hosts with nova-manage? | 23:53 |
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| SamYaple | gunix: for the price of a netapp i can assureyou i get betterperformance out of ceph | 23:54 |
| SamYaple | if you have more money than manpower, itmight make sense | 23:54 |
| gunix | :D | 23:54 |
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| gunix | what do you think about scaleio? | 23:54 |
| masber | SamYaple, I didn't discover_hosts, shall I? | 23:54 |
| gunix | masber: do you have anything to lose on that setup? :D | 23:55 |
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| SamYaple | masber: nova-manage cell_v2 discover_hosts --verbose | 23:55 |
| gunix | masber: did you try openstack-ansible ? :D | 23:55 |
| SamYaple | masber: assuming you have done the rest of the cells_v2 correctly | 23:55 |
| masber | gunix, I have 0 instances. I just redeployed openstack becuase of this problem, but redploying doesnt fix anything | 23:55 |
| masber | I am not worry about loosing data but why this is happening I would like to understand | 23:56 |
| SamYaple | masber: you have to discover_hosts when adding newcomputes | 23:56 |
| SamYaple | yaycellsv2 | 23:56 |
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| gunix | SamYaple: i saw those videos about scaleio providing 4 times better performance than ceph and i think they did soemthing to the metris to show off.. i don't think it provides 4x better performance | 23:57 |
| masber | gunix, I use kolla-ansible which has been working fine till now. I started having this issue after upgrading the nic drivers on all hosts | 23:57 |
| gunix | masber: if you don't have anything important on the setup, you can just do trial & error until you find the issue. if you can connect this to the driver update, i suggest reverting to old driver just for a test | 23:58 |
| SamYaple | masber: what does `nova server-list` say? | 23:58 |
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