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| n00balert | This link is broken: https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/:ref:project-infrastructure | 04:42 |
|---|---|---|
| n00balert | At https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/help-most-needed.html | 04:43 |
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| wuchongyao | #openstack-cinder I'm setting up an CI System and post public key to openstack infra mail list but havn't get response. | 09:04 |
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| frickler | fungi: see the comment from n00balert above, the link seem to have always been broken, at least I don't see project-infrastructure defined even at the time this was first merged. so maybe you want to update this yourself. I was also thinking whether you would want to mention the OpenDev initiative there now | 10:00 |
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| BlackDex | Hello there, Is there a way to migrate the storage backend for ephemeral storages of running instances? | 12:52 |
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| igoryonya | Is it like a same thing, as lxd api, or libvirt api, but virtual server type independant, or is it something else? | 13:45 |
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| igoryonya | hello, I am trying to figure out. What exactly openstack is? | 13:47 |
| igoryonya | Is it like a same thing, as lxd api, or libvirt api, but virtual server type independant, or is it something else? | 13:47 |
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| larsks | It is not at all the same thing. lxd and libvirt are both primarily hypervisors. OpenStack is a resource scheduler for your infrastructure, so in addition to provide an API for managing virtual compute instances, it also provides apis for managing storage, networking, secrets, and many other things. | 13:49 |
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| larsks | The OpenStack compute service will *manage* things like libvirt or lxd, but that's only a small part of what it does. | 13:49 |
| igoryonya | I am trying to figure out, what openstack is. | 13:49 |
| larsks | I am trying to answer that :) | 13:49 |
| fungi | imagine if you had a central api for managing lxd and libvirt and vmware and so on across as many hosts as you wanted, but also for managing the deployment of the underlying operating systems on your physical servers and the configuration of your network switches and routers and load balancers and network-attached storage pools and relational databases and... | 13:50 |
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| fungi | to quote the first paragraph of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStack "OpenStack is a free and open-source software platform for cloud computing, mostly deployed as infrastructure-as-a-service (IaaS), whereby virtual servers and other resources are made available to customers.[2] The software platform consists of interrelated components that control diverse, multi-vendor hardware pools of processing, | 13:54 |
| fungi | storage, and networking resources throughout a data center. Users either manage it through a web-based dashboard, through command-line tools, or through RESTful web services." | 13:54 |
| igoryonya | so, in the basic understanding (of course, it's more complicated, than that, but...:) it's an abstraction layer between real hypervisors, storage providers and network devices and the user? | 13:55 |
| fungi | pretty much (and an abstraction layer for managing other software/services which are complimentary in such an environment) | 13:58 |
| fungi | also identity/authentication, multi-tenancy and policy enforcement | 13:59 |
| fungi | the stuff you'd expect to need when you have customers/users who need to have their resources securely isolated from each other | 13:59 |
| igoryonya | fungi, no, larsks's explanation was clearer and mor understandable, then wikipedia's. If I would read, what you've cited from wikipedia, I would still be unclear of what it is, but what larsks said, brought me closer to understanding of what it is and I don't (still) understand, what means RESTfull, after reading explanations about it on different websites and wikipedia. | 14:00 |
| larsks | igoryonya: RESTful basically means "relatively simple http api" | 14:01 |
| fungi | rest is a term of art for a commonly employed http-based api model | 14:01 |
| fungi | so "the api is implemented over http" | 14:02 |
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| fungi | though rest is an abbreviation for "representative state transfer" | 14:03 |
| fungi | er, representational i guess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representational_state_transfer | 14:03 |
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| fungi | my memory is terrible | 14:03 |
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| igoryonya | How is OpenStack compared to juju (from videos, that I watch), it also orcestrates VMs and cubernetis also does and jenkins. Am I wrong? Are all these technologies competitors, or somehow OpenStack is using them? | 14:05 |
| fungi | juju is commonly used as a means of deploying components of openstack | 14:06 |
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| fungi | there are a lot of demos out there of "ubuntu cloud" deployments via juju, which are deploying and then interacting with the api for openstack | 14:07 |
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| igoryonya | fungi, so juju is installed first, then you use juju to install openstack? | 14:07 |
| fungi | that's one possibility | 14:07 |
| fungi | much in the same way you might deploy openstack with puppet, or ansible, or chef, or salt, or... | 14:07 |
| fungi | or from distro packages in debian, ubuntu, red hat's rdo | 14:08 |
| igoryonya | Doesn't OpenStack have it's own manager webui? | 14:08 |
| fungi | sure, but not everyone uses that | 14:08 |
| fungi | and you still need to have some way of installing the openstack services | 14:09 |
| igoryonya | so, puppet, or ansible, or chef, or salt are used instead of juju? and puppet, or ansible, or chef, or salt, juju are competitors? | 14:09 |
| fungi | (though one way is tripleo, which uses a seed deployment of openstack to deploy a full production set of openstack services) | 14:09 |
| larsks | fungi: they are "alternatives" not necessarily "competitors". | 14:09 |
| fungi | igoryonya: they are configuration management and orchestration systems | 14:10 |
| fungi | but all are free/libre open source software. as larsks says, they're not competitors they're friends and colleagues | 14:10 |
| fungi | who just happen to have designed different ways of accomplishing similar tasks | 14:11 |
| igoryonya | I mean different tools, designed for the same thing?, like multiple server/cluster automation. | 14:11 |
| fungi | designed for similar, often overlapping, purposes yes | 14:11 |
| fungi | they all have their own strengths and weaknesses | 14:11 |
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| igoryonya | and instead of all of them, or/and juju, you could justuse openstack's webui? | 14:12 |
| larsks | igoryonya: no. the web ui isn't an installation tool. | 14:12 |
| larsks | You can't use the web ui until *after* you've installed openstack. | 14:12 |
| fungi | the webui is for interacting with the software | 14:12 |
| igoryonya | you are talking about OpenStack's webui? | 14:13 |
| fungi | automotive analogies are terrible, of course, but you wouldn't use a steering wheel to assemble a car | 14:13 |
| igoryonya | what is OpenStack's ui used for, then? | 14:14 |
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| igoryonya | Is it possible to do everything, using OpenStack without using mentioned tools, like juju, salt, etc.? | 14:15 |
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| fungi | launching virtual machines, creating networks and firewalls, provisioning and attaching storage, adding users and permissions... | 14:15 |
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| igoryonya | and how MaaS is applied to all of that? | 14:16 |
| fungi | yes, you can even (in the case of tripleo) use a small all-in-one deployment of openstack on a single machine to install openstack services onto other servers in the data center | 14:16 |
| igoryonya | Is it a way to install OSes on bare metal without physically touching those metals? | 14:17 |
| fungi | maas isn't part of openstack. it's something canonical wrote. there is a similar component for bare metal server management in openstack called "ironic" | 14:17 |
| fungi | maas is a canonical/ubuntu-maintained alternative to the ironic service in openstack | 14:17 |
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| igoryonya | so you can use OpenStack alone to install services/etc., but it will be more tedious and difficult without using tools, such as juju, salt, jenkins, etc.? | 14:19 |
| fungi | i don't think i've ever seen anyone deploy openstack with jenkins (except to build virtual openstack deployments as an automated test) | 14:21 |
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| fungi | but generally speaking, it usually comes down to whether you have an existing data center infrastructure which you're already managing with one of those configuration management and orchestration systems, and so want to integrate your openstack lifecycle management with that more closely or leverage existing domain knowledge about those | 14:22 |
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| fungi | so if you already have a bunch of servers you're managing with chef, for example, then you might also want to use chef to install and upgrade openstack services too | 14:23 |
| fungi | instead of using chef for some stuff in your data center but, say, puppet to deploy and upgrade openstack, and then having to remember the differences between them | 14:24 |
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| ssbarnea|rover | fungi: do you know who can merge changes to requirements? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/626000/ --- quite an easy one. | 14:27 |
| fungi | ssbarnea|rover: per https://review.openstack.org/#/admin/groups/requirements-core it's dirk, dhellmann, prometheanfire and tonyb (the release and infra teams are merely included there for emergencies), but you might have more luck asking in #openstack-requirements if you haven't already | 14:29 |
| igoryonya | OK, now I got confused. I thought, tha tall those tools use openstack to manage VMs, as an abstraction instead of talking directly to vmware, lxd, qemu, etc., now you are saying that they are independant of openstack. I am confused, why you need OpenStack, if you can manage everything with automation tools, such as chef, juju, etc.? | 14:29 |
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| fungi | you need some way to install and upgrade openstack, and those configuration management and automation solutions provide that | 14:31 |
| igoryonya | Is it possible to install OpenStack in container, such as LXD? | 14:32 |
| fungi | you can install and upgrade openstack by hand, but it's complex and easy to get wrong, so having a set of tested and trusted recipes for doing it in an automated fashion is preferred by many | 14:32 |
| larsks | igoryonya: it is both possible and relatively common to install openstack into a *set* of containers. Tripleo uses docker containers and openstack-ansible uses lxc containers. | 14:32 |
| fungi | sure, in fact openstack's kolla project is focused on building and maintaining container images for openstack so that you can deploy openstack services in docker or kubernetes or whatever | 14:32 |
| fungi | and yes, the aforementioned tripleo has switched to using (kolla's i believe?) containers in recent years to that end | 14:33 |
| igoryonya | what's tripleo? | 14:33 |
| larsks | Tripleo is an openstack installation tool. | 14:34 |
| fungi | a project for using openstack to deploy openstack | 14:34 |
| larsks | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/TripleO | 14:34 |
| fungi | and to upgrade openstack | 14:34 |
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| fungi | the original idea for tripleo was that you could unbundle a minimal deployment of openstack onto, say, a laptop and plug it into your datacenter management network and then use it to push a production openstack deployment out to all your unconfigured physical servers | 14:35 |
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| ssbarnea|rover | fungi: thanks, i don't know how i missed reqs channel, tried few hours ago to look for it and missed to spot it. joined now. | 14:36 |
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| fungi | ssbarnea|rover: my pleasure! | 14:36 |
| igoryonya | I have a sophisticated network at work with a lot of bare metal servers and a vmWare virtualisation cluster. If I install OpenStack on my network on some server, will it not screw my network somehow? | 14:36 |
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| fungi | you would have to configure things in your network to be available to it and provide those authentication credentials | 14:37 |
| fungi | though, yes, you'd probably want to not turn on the dhcpd at least, if you have physical systems which rely on that to bootp/tftp/pxe boot | 14:39 |
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| fungi | though i think by default ironic won't manage systems until you enroll their layer-2 addresses into it | 14:40 |
| fungi | so even that's probably safe | 14:40 |
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| igoryonya | Is it able to manage existing servers somehow? or it has it's own structure and servers it manages, should no os, install on them, because openstack will manage them from scratch? | 14:40 |
| fungi | i believe it's possible to add running hypervisor hosts to openstack nova, though that's beyond my personal domain knowledge | 14:41 |
| fungi | like, if you're converting from vmware vce to openstack nova and have vmware esx hosts you want nova to schedule vm workloads onto | 14:43 |
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| igoryonya | How many physical computers do I need to have, which i can use to learn openstack. I will not connect them physically to my network, but they will be networked only between themselves or It can be done inside some virtual environment, then how powerful the computer needs to be in order to handle openstack for me to be able to learn it? | 14:43 |
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| fungi | we have a deployment tool we call "devstack" which can install a working and fairly feature-full configuration of common openstack services within a virtual machine with something like 8gb ram, 4vcpus and 80gb of disk | 14:44 |
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| fungi | it's what openstack developers often use to try out changes they're considering making to the source code, and what we use in our continuous integration testing system to confirm such patches don't render those services unusable | 14:45 |
| igoryonya | is it deploying a bunch of needed VMs, nested within one vm? | 14:46 |
| fungi | that's basically what we do in that case, yes | 14:47 |
| fungi | and then have them boot cirros or some similarly tiny operating system | 14:47 |
| fungi | just to be able to exercise the underlying services | 14:47 |
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| igoryonya | so to the vm, where the devstack will be deployed, I don't need to add any network interfaces, because it will have it's own virtual environment with it's own virtual network? | 14:48 |
| fungi | if you want a more full-featured poc, mtreinish did a presentation and an article not long ago on a test environment he installed manually from source on four used servers he found on ebay, mainly to demonstrate that it was possible to follow our install documentation without relying on any configuration management and orchestration framework | 14:48 |
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| fungi | yeah, devstack can have a virtual network with the virtual machines connected to that | 14:49 |
| igoryonya | Thank you for your help; | 14:49 |
| fungi | you can also use devstack to install onto multiple systems and then bridge those virtual networks with a tunnel (gre, vxlan...) so that the virtual machines can reach each other between hypervisor hosts | 14:50 |
| igoryonya | Where can I find mtreinish'es presentation? | 14:51 |
| fungi | but the more production-focused deployment projects also mostly have poc-type configurations (openstack-ansible's aio, tripleo's quickstart, et cetera) | 14:51 |
| fungi | i'll get you a link, just a moment | 14:52 |
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| fungi | igoryonya: https://www.openstack.org/videos/summits/boston-2017/dirty-clouds-done-dirt-cheap | 14:53 |
| igoryonya | Thank you very much. I will go read now. | 14:53 |
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| igoryonya | or watch :) | 14:54 |
| fungi | note that he did that talk ~18 months ago, so a number of the bugs he ran into during the course of his deployment are fixed in newer openstack releases | 14:54 |
| fungi | and yeah, there's also a link there to download his slides | 14:54 |
| igoryonya | Ok | 14:55 |
| fungi | and he put the configuration he used in a github repo too, i think, which i can find if it's not mentioned in the slides (though i'm pretty sure it is) | 14:55 |
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| fungi | n00balert: frickler: thanks for the heads up, i think https://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/doc/source/_exts/teams.py#n38 is what adds the ref to the top of https://governance.openstack.org/tc/_sources/reference/projects/infrastructure.rst.txt so i think it's just a matter of correcting sphinx/rst syntax | 15:25 |
| fungi | i'm trying a few possibilities now | 15:25 |
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| fungi | https://review.openstack.org/626221 should solve it, thanks agani! | 15:47 |
| fungi | er, again | 15:47 |
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